Tag brainstorm

[shadow coyote]

The border won't work

[stoic echo]

?

[shadow coyote]

Because of how it reads on the background

[dire sinew]

I think you can have Rare tags have a text when they appear (“Rare!”) and players will pick it up

[shadow coyote]

But I like the concept

[stoic echo]

maybe the background color on the inside?

[dire sinew]

Maybe have colored sparkles

[stoic echo]

ill experiment with some quick visuals

[shadow coyote]

lol it's all good

I can handle it

[stoic echo]

real

[split heron]

one scenario i think i would be cool is someone seeing legendary rarity for tags before they know legendary jokers exist, and figuring out they do

[sudden agate]

going back to the topic: what should tags be like in general? skipping a blind (i.e. skipping income and a shop) is a big thing to pass up, so should tags be situationally good? should some tags be "always take"?

[dire sinew]

Players trying to help the dev so they can develop the game faster:

[shadow coyote]

But the idea of visually making the sprite disctinct is good enough to convey that it's special I think

[brisk hawk]

Would particle effects surrounding the tag work?

[dire sinew]

To me it feels weird to be rewarded for skipping a challenge, even if rationally I understand I’m trading a reward for it

[blazing needle]

this can be an alternative

we see red border

still has normal border too

[sudden agate]

I see that a few players always take the spectral pack tag, for example (which I think is getting nerfed?)

[dire sinew]

A priori I’d expect a Raise mechanic where I fight a harder challenge for a better reward

[shadow coyote]

IMO they should not ever be 'always take', but Negative flies in the face of that

[blazing needle]

oh yea

[dire sinew]

I always take it early because I think it’s more fun if it gives me a direction to go to

[blazing needle]

negative is always take cuz there is no drawback but losing money

[sudden agate]

I don't think you'd ever take Negative if you're low on econ, but I get the sentiment

[shadow coyote]

The Tag idea is this > risk losing by doing something hard (skipping ahead) and get a reward for it

BUT

If optimal play is to just skip forever, then that becomes the game

So there needs to be a balance

[blazing needle]

ye

like i dont really skip that much now as tags are eh

[stoic echo]

very much wrong colors but u get the idea

[dire sinew]

I also find it weird that the reward is… playing less of the game

[shadow coyote]

There is something working in my favour here - that fun play isn't always optimal play

[dire sinew]

I should be rewarded for playing the game, not for skipping the game

[blazing needle]

i c

[sudden agate]

what would your preferred "optimal play" be? what percentage of blinds should skips do you expect an optimal (or average) player to be making?

[shadow coyote]

So skipping might make it more fun but technically worse for your winning odds

[dire sinew]

I always hear that “players will optimize the fun out of the game”

[sudden agate]

I personally skip 2% of the time or something, only for the +$15

[stoic echo]

true

[dire sinew]

I thought it was the other way around. Skipping is boring but it increases your chances

With good tags OFC

[shadow coyote]

Should be the opposite

[dire sinew]

If the Tags are bad then it’s boring and bad

[dire sinew]

What’s fun in skipping ahead?

I want to have fun by playing the game

[split heron]

skipping for a reward is an interesting and fun choice to me

[dire sinew]

Not by skipping the game

[shadow coyote]

Getting a negative joker is fun, spectral cards are fun

rare jokers

[dire sinew]

Otherwise I’d skip the whole game and just do something else

[split heron]

realistically you wont be skipping that many blinds

[dire sinew]

But not the skip itself, just the reward

[stoic echo]

its just a diffrent way to play

[dire sinew]

That’s why I always take Spectral early. It’s fun, usually

[blazing needle]

yea

more chaos

[sudden agate]

in the current implementation of tags, I feel like the consistency of a shop + income outweigh the riskiness/reward of most tags, except for +$15

[dire sinew]

Yes other people can have fun in different ways

[shadow coyote]

Literally everyone likes spectral tags right?

[sudden agate]

I don't (hot take)

[stoic echo]

very much

[blazing needle]

early game yes

[split heron]

i love spectral tags!

[blazing needle]

due to how it's harder to see spectral packs in shop

[split heron]

i want all the spectral cards

[dire sinew]

It’s not always good but it’s fun

[blazing needle]

yea

[dire sinew]

I don’t

[brisk hawk]

Easy to build a deck around in early game

[sudden agate]

spectral packs are too inconsistent compared to a shop + income IMO

[dire sinew]

Like the Face and Number ones are bad

[sudden agate]

I agree that they're fun, though

[dire sinew]

The Rank one is okay

[split heron]

let me put spectral cards in my consumable slots so i can look at them longer

[blazing needle]

that would have to be a voucher or challenge idea

for balance reasons

[dire sinew]

What’s unbalanced about holding a Spectral?

[shadow coyote]

I think spectral tag is a great implementation of the tag idea - so I want to get the other ones more in line with it

[blazing needle]

tbh idk

consistency?

[dire sinew]

lol

[split heron]

its balanced if i dont use them because im admiring the art the entire game

[stoic echo]

its crazy cuz the thing that makes spectral tag fun is the chance, but the thing that makes the other tags bad is chance

[shadow coyote]

It's different kinds of chance

[blazing needle]

that's irony right there

^

[shadow coyote]

OOOO there's a talk about this

let me link

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dwI5b-wRLic

[dire sinew]

I mean, the other Tags are x-1 in x chance of nothing

[split heron]

gmtk my beloved

[stoic echo]

exactly, i feel like the two random tag, tag we were talking about falls into the catagory of spectral!

[dire sinew]

The Spectrals mostly have 3 bad outcomes early

[stoic echo]

i think that one should def be added it feels a similar vein to me

[stoic echo]

great video btw

[dire sinew]

Do you want random Numbers? No. Do you want random Faces? No.

Do you want all cards to the same Rank? Eh, sure

[sudden agate]

what do you like about the spectral tag? that it's a "gamble with very fun results"?

[stoic echo]

yes

[dire sinew]

I mean most players like it

[shadow coyote]

Yeah basically

Even losing the gamble is kinda fun

[stoic echo]

^

[dire sinew]

It’s randomness with a decision about the outcome, and you most likely get something out of it

[shadow coyote]

Whereas getting a 'Nope!' isn't as fun

[stoic echo]

i disagree with this, as (the way i play atleast) ill adapt to my problem ive gotten

[split heron]

when i see WoF in the tarot selection, I'm the one that says Nope!

[blazing needle]

off topic but incantation and familiar would be interesting to hold in consumables if you almost ran out of cards but still have hands, as you can create more cards (beneficial for high card build)

[stoic echo]

i do take numbers and faces and actually use it to my benefit!

figuring out how to use the traditional bad cards from spectral is really fun to me

[dire sinew]

Faces could be useful if you already had a Face build

Like Scary Face etc.

[stoic echo]

i take face on abandend deck

[dire sinew]

But I think that’s pretty rare for me

Much less to have both Face Spectral and those

[stoic echo]

and then use tarots to stuff to them

[dire sinew]

Skill difference

[split heron]

i would actually really like being able to take cards from packs into your consumables, as a voucher or joker or something

[blazing needle]

a joker for that would be interesting

changes dynamic of booster packs tho

[dire sinew]

Yeah

[dire sinew]

But the Numbers Card seems irredeemable

Why would you want multiple different random numbers

[split heron]

could be a voucher, base allows grabbing from arcana and celestial and upgraded allows grabbing from spectral packs

[stoic echo]

numbers does seem meh for demo state but i can see it being very good for death foughter and tower faughter

[dire sinew]

Name it Grabber

[dire sinew]

what

[dire sinew]

I think I would prefer it if it were a Joker. I think they would be rarer that way

I don’t want stocking pack cards to be common

[stoic echo]

i can see myself grabbing the number spectral card late game in a higher ante situation to give myself better cards with death OR turn them into stone cards with Tower and or level them up with stregnth

i can defenitly get not wanting numbers in our current demo tho

but ill still grab it sometimes when i want a unique run

[split heron]

if the numbers you get were consecutive itd be slightly better with straight synergy

[dire sinew]

I can’t see myself in a situation where I would have so few cards in my deck but also so many Tarots that I would take Numbers just to have more cards in my deck

Again skill difference maybe

[stoic echo]

i would more say diffrent playstyle than skill tbh

[dire sinew]

I’m still not sure that’s true

You could just as easily draw the ends of the straight but not the middle (or any combination of cards that’s not perfectly in order). More cards means more variance

If you have only the five cards that form a Straight in your deck, you guarantee you’ll draw the Straight. If you have one hundred of each you might draw only the lowest card

[sudden agate]

back on topic, I think a "Rerolls the boss blind" is a good example of a tag

[stoic echo]

I think if it was 2 numbered cards of a same random rank it would be easily adjustable with stuff like strength with them being the same rarity

But yes back on topic lol

[blazing needle]

yea

thats a cool tag

[sudden agate]

I think you never typically take it, unless the boss blind counters your run

[stoic echo]

reroll tag is awesome

[sudden agate]

like, if you are a straight deck and you get "No Straights"

[blazing needle]

the demo has set bosses

[dire sinew]

Didn’t thunk say there would be more ways to do that in the full release

[blazing needle]

in the full game i expect the rerolls to be more useful to remove bosses that counter your deck

[stoic echo]

Yeah

[sudden agate]

there is the movie voucher I think?

[dire sinew]

Agreed

[blazing needle]

for example the plant in a face card build

[stoic echo]

Retcon and Directors Cut

[split heron]

theres a voucher that lets you reroll bosses in the full game

yeah

[cerulean steppe]

Immolation is alright early

[dire sinew]

But it needs to show up exactly when you need it

[dire sinew]

That’s one of the best outcomes early

Maybe the best

Are you trying to imply it’s bad?

[stoic echo]

I’d argue wraith or Oujia is best with immolate right after but playstyles again

[dire sinew]

I like Yellow Deck so Wraith isn’t always good there

[dire sinew]

Which one is Ouija?

[stoic echo]

Set everything to same rank | -1 hand size

[dire sinew]

Luigi board

Weegee board

[dire sinew]

I prefer the Suit one to Weegee

I’ve won almost every run with Flush lol

[stoic echo]

idk ive found good uses with it on yellow deck

[dire sinew]

Skill issued

[dire sinew]

It’s probably still correct I just don’t want to lol

[stoic echo]

fair af

[dire sinew]

Although I like getting random Jokers

I want more Random Jokers

Just not paid for lol

[stoic echo]

that fill ur empty slots with common joker tags

that shit is awesome

[dire sinew]

I’d like it more on Ante 1

Make it scale with the Ante so it’s balanced at the start

Like it’s fun to have a random Joker

[stoic echo]

i feel like if it gets added it will just be a rare tag

[blazing needle]

yeah

[dire sinew]

Make it common an increase the first Small Blind to 1,000

I think that would be more fun

[stoic echo]

thats for thunk to balance

tbh

[dire sinew]

Yes I’m just giving my opinion

It’s the same opinion I have about Editions essentially

I’d rather lose with a random Joker than win without it I think

Except not if I have to take Wraith while I have Yellow Deck I guess lol

[livid pewter]

it wont appear on ante 1

that's too overpowered

it's basically 20$ instantly

and you're def keeping at least a few of them

there's like no point in playing a round if your other option is to get this

[dire sinew]

Read the message immediately after the one you replied to

[livid pewter]

How do you nerf it tho? if you are going for a win, there should be a reason not to take this option if you get it offered on ante 1

The only reason would be if it was only 1 joker

[dire sinew]

You’re skipping a Blind, which is about the cost of most common Jokers

[livid pewter]

But if its 1 joker then is there a reason to take it at all? I dunno

[dire sinew]

I mean, did you not understand what I said here?

Make it scale with the Ante so it’s balanced at the start

[livid pewter]

Ah, by scale with ante you mean ante number, thought you meant something else

[livid pewter]

^ my point stands

And by ante 3 you prob won't need more than 2 jokers

[dire sinew]

If you skip a Small Blind, you get a common Joker for slightly cheaper than usual

[livid pewter]

Don't you get 6 Dollar for small blind?

[dire sinew]

Well, actually if you count the $ you could win from Hands it’s a bit more

Maybe it could just be a fixed 2 Common Jokers

As you said you likely won’t have room for more late anyways

Or it could scale with the Ante but start from 2 Jokers

[livid pewter]

I feel like you'd still always skip it if it was 2 jokers

Small blind 6 dollars, 4 common jokers instantly = 8 dollars

[dire sinew]

Although even if it’s a single Joker you could sell it

[dire sinew]

You need room for them too

[livid pewter]

I am talking about first ante

[dire sinew]

Shouldn’t it be 5 then?

[livid pewter]

It needs to be between "always take" and "never take", and if it is 2 jokers, even common ones, you'd always take it on ante 1

[dire sinew]

I don’t know what this means

[livid pewter]

2 common jokers *

Typo

[dire sinew]

I thought two Commons was usually $6 when sold

[livid pewter]

I am talking about how much the jokers cost, not their sell value

[dire sinew]

Their cost isn’t relevant IMO

How many Jokers do you see that you don’t buy?

Their value isn’t their price

[livid pewter]

I don't buy them only because I have specific idea in mind, even 4 mult joker can help u on ante 1

Then you drop it

[dire sinew]

Now, compare with a Joker you do want, but it has a chance of turning into a different Joker when bought

That’s less value than being guaranteed the Joker you want

[dire sinew]

As I talked about yesterday, I think getting a random free Joker is fun and I would even accept scaling Blind scores to start from 1,000 for it

I think that would make the game more fun (for me)

[livid pewter]

Localthunk said tags shouldn't be double edged

And I am not saying it isn't fun, just too op and there is probably no way to balance around it

[dire sinew]

Where’s the double edge?

Also it was a general comment, I would like this mechanic even if it wasn’t a tag

[livid pewter]

having to score more?

[dire sinew]

That would happen regardless of whether you took the tag or not

[livid pewter]

shrug that might be an overkill for a new player

[dire sinew]

I just said a round number

[livid pewter]

?

not sure I'm following

[dire sinew]

It doesn’t need to be 1,000

[livid pewter]

can you explain like I just joined this conversation? I have no clue wym

[dire sinew]

I thought you were criticizing the 1,000 here

[stoic echo]

#1172277364458262548 message | realized its not pinned

[blazing needle]

boss rerolls are now coloured pink? interesting

[stoic echo]

the icon on column 4 row 2 does confirm that these packs give us normal cards tho which rocks

which is what thunk was talking about with reworking thoose

im just wondering if we'll have 3 packs avalible or still 2

[dire sinew]

Ooohhhhh I hadn’t seen this

I like it

[rare cloud]

New tag that gives you a number of free rerolled in shop that you can use whenever you wish. Could maybe be visualised as dices * X that you click. If one wishes to make them even more complex one could make it possible to use them to reroll tarot, planet and maybe even spectral cards in packs. As well as rerolling the hands in the same packs if that is preferred. In blinds you could use them to basically redraw a full hand while shuffling your old hand back into the deck. Having all effects available at once might make them too hard to balance though, so pick and choose whatever then and maybe split the effect into multiple vouchers/different types of dice.

[rare cloud]

The problems that comes with giving a guaranteed Joker with an edition could maybe be somewhat negated by making it so that editions does not add a flat cost increase to the Joker, but rather it multiplies the Jokers cost, plus maybe a smaller flat value. That way it would become more of a gamble if you can even afford the Joker you get unless you are loaded on cash, but one kinda has to accept that however one makes it work, it will always have some "downside". Or make negative an exception to the guaranteed, and make it a 1 in a 2 chance in combination with making the cost a multiplier, since the negative is the most "always buy" of all the editions and thus maybe deserve to be random on that fact alone, even if it breaks consistency.

If the price already is a multiplier then I guess I just never noticed this and there is not really a quick way to check in game, so forgive me if this is the case.

[split heron]

Yeah it’s a multiplier already

Max of x2 price on negative

[rare cloud]

Then maybe increase the multiplier? Or make the Tag itself multiply the cost for the card you get, to not make negatives too expensive when they appear randomly.

[granite sky]

okay so for G is it just skip a hand

[vague cypress]

Next hand acts like Dusk

[granite sky]

this tag + blueprint (on dusk) + dusk: