🕹・game-discussion

[dawn summit]

Scary big words

[pale wolf]

binomial just means two names, like walter white/heisenburg

[turbid nova]

Binomial paraedolia

[pale wolf]

parei

[turbid nova]

I can’t ever spell it right smh

[knotty zodiac]

so the inverse of a pun, which is one word referring to two concepts

[cloud sinew]

two terms, but yes

[pale wolf]

it has two eyes like a face

[pale wolf]

the inverse of spartacus

[knotty zodiac]

one pronounciation?

iamverysmart

[cloud sinew]

i was about to correct you and say that's a double entendre, but puns are double entendre

[pale wolf]

pronounciation lol

[knotty zodiac]

what's that term that linguists use?

i give up lol

back to balatro

[devout wasp]

that certainly narrows it down

[turbid nova]

homonyms?

[knotty zodiac]

similar

[cloud sinew]

homograph?

[pale wolf]

diphthong

[fiery nymph]

real

[turbid nova]

Can you provide an example

[knotty zodiac]

identical sequence of phonemes ig is the closest to what im thinking of

but it's also not identical

[turbid nova]

too posh

[pale wolf]

you dont mean cognate do you

[knotty zodiac]

so...

[turbid nova]

Identical sequence of phonemes
Are they necessarily spelled the same?

[knotty zodiac]

no

[cloud sinew]

so do you mean a homophone

[pale wolf]

its homophone the whole time

[turbid nova]

Homophone

[cloud sinew]

same sound, different meaning

[knotty zodiac]

but a pun is not a homophone

[cloud sinew]

double entendre is the term youre thinking of then

also yes it can be

[cloud sinew]

"right to bear arms" and the joke is that I have the arms of a bear

[knotty zodiac]

a pun is a superset that homophones belong to...? im not confident about this

[pale wolf]

i think most puns are plays on homophones actually

[pale wolf]

this is both a pun and another thing

bc arms means 2 different things with the same spelling

[turbid nova]

free slaves 😀 vs free slaves 😨

[knotty zodiac]

a double entendre is a single phrase with a sequence of words that's interpreted in two different contexts, so still no i think

[cursive crater]

mr. pairslop

[devout wasp]

puns have significant overlap with homophones/homographs/homonyms/metonyms but are not entirely included in any one of those categories

[turbid nova]

John pairs

[devout wasp]

some nerds call a pun a paronomasia

[turbid nova]

Sounds like a joker

[cloud sinew]

shakespear type beat

[devout wasp]

getting some real boss baby 2 vibes from this word

[cloud sinew]

i think youre just thinking of "word play" as a concept then

which encompasses double entendres, puns, spoonerisms, etc

[turbid nova]

spoonerism?

[cloud sinew]

"say gex"

[knotty zodiac]

this is closest i think but there's gotta be a concept that describes it more concretely

[pale wolf]

ok so i think you're a hominid

[turbid nova]

ah

[devout wasp]

"shake a tower" for "take a shower"

spoonerisms get bonus points if what you make out of them are also words ("say gex" gets extra bonus points for one of the words being the funny lizard)

[pale wolf]

oh I think i know

is it eggcorns

[knotty zodiac]

what is an eggcorn

[cloud sinew]

a mishearing

like "praying mantis"

[devout wasp]

or "doggy dog world"

[cloud sinew]

i love that one

[knotty zodiac]

bone apple tea/

?

[devout wasp]

yea

[cloud sinew]

yes

[devout wasp]

the musical version is often called a mondegreen, because of an old lyric: "they hae slain the earl o' murray, and laid 'im on the green" being misheard as "and lady mondegreen"

[turbid nova]

Love when english speakers are like “eugh this english word’s spelling makes no sense” and the word is literally stolen from french

[knotty zodiac]

english is an awful language to learn as a non-native

[cloud sinew]

pretty much every famous parody song uses eggcorns

[turbid nova]

I disagree

[cloud sinew]

english is an awful language

[turbid nova]

It was easy

I picked it up from games and movies

[pale wolf]

nuh uh

It's a beautiful patchwork that allows some of the most artistic language

[cloud sinew]

it has so many unspoken rules, and the rules that are spoken are riddled with exceptions and fineprint

[cloud sinew]

i dont disagree. there's a reason why people often say that english has a word for everything

compound words my beloved

[turbid nova]

Whoever came up with “i before e except after c” should be banned from speaking english

[cloud sinew]

compound words arent unique to english, but it has the most of them out of any language

[turbid nova]

I can think of more counterexamples than words that actually follow that rule

[knotty zodiac]

more than german?

[devout wasp]

i think english mostly gets a bad rap because it has a combination of a strange historical trajectory and the distinction of being the current global lingua franca

[cloud sinew]

there are literally more exceptions to the rule than there are that follow it

[turbid nova]

English is just “write whatever sounds correct” and you’ll be fine most of the time

[cloud sinew]

it has the most officially recognised compound words out of any language.
germanic languages are heavily based on forming compound words as and when you need them

[knotty zodiac]

ah interesting, til

so when ppl say "there is a german word for <x>" it might be the case that they just made up the word

[pale wolf]

something something Inuits have a billion words for snow

[fringe crest]

hi lilo

[cloud sinew]

hello

[turbid nova]

Anyone here a non-native spanish speaker
I’m curious on what perspective you have on it

[pale wolf]

I took 3 years of Spanish and can read it pretty well, it is consistent most of the time at least

[devout wasp]

yea english is also generally not going to have compounding quite as heavy as an agglutinative language like turkish or smth, but at that point you get into the weeds about what morphemes count as distinct lexemes/words vs what counts as compounds

[pale wolf]

I don't really have much further thoughts about it, it's just some language

[fringe crest]

zebrraaaaaaa

[knotty zodiac]

from my school years, Spanish seemed way more consistent

[fringe crest]

hihihi

[devout wasp]

and also those agglutinations often aren't dictionary forms

[turbid nova]

I find it incredibly intuitive but I’m biased

[fringe crest]

i wish i still talked here often

[knotty zodiac]

dont let your dreams be dreams

[cloud sinew]

I love the grammar structure, it took me a little to get the hang of it but it feels more intuitive than English.
Subject Object Verb feels easier to use

[turbid nova]

Yeah

[pale wolf]

It's not the kind of language I would design, what with genders and the way verbs are conjugated

[turbid nova]

I’m so used to it at this point

[cloud sinew]

true! I hate grammatical gender

[fringe crest]

i talked here enough to talk with localthunk on many different occasions but quit when i started trying to be one of the best at a different game

[turbid nova]

So I was surprised when I saw ppl complain abt it

Italian is the same in that regard

[knotty zodiac]

i saw briefly in passing earlier, you said some roblox game? would we know it?

[cloud sinew]

there are remnants of grammatical gender in english, which i also dont like

blonde vs blond

[turbid nova]

Yeah

[cloud sinew]

Balatra

[fringe crest]

jujutsu shenanigans

[devout wasp]

SOV is very fun compositionally, when i was studying latin i very much enjoyed the ways you can use/abuse that word order for poetic license

[turbid nova]

Although some get switched up and it trips me up sometimes (la sal vs il sale)

[knotty zodiac]

ig not, is it like balatro?

[real crest]

balala

[fringe crest]

ive been learning with some of the best players ever

[fringe crest]

fighting game

[knotty zodiac]

more like smash or like street fighter?

[fringe crest]

yeah kinda like smash

[cursive crater]

jjs mentioned

[fringe crest]

lemme send a vid rq

[pale wolf]

smash is my home game

[fringe crest]

ill just send a vid of a combo i made

[knotty zodiac]

went from deepthonk to twitchy reflex game

[pale wolf]

I have thousands of hours in smash 🦓

[fringe crest]

this took a long time to make consistent

[cloud sinew]

It's very easy to switch the word order to sound "higher class"

[dawn summit]

Roblox moment

[terse vale]

I like french because the adjective goes after the noun 🤤

[cloud sinew]

The brown hat vs The hat that is brown

[knotty zodiac]

has anyone tried learning esperanto?

[devout wasp]

yea, you can do that, but in english it requires marker/auxiliary words to do so

[cloud sinew]

The hat brown

it makes it seem like brown is now a verb lol

[devout wasp]

while in a language like latin the sense is communicated mostly by syntax

[cloud sinew]

The hat shat

[turbid nova]

Latin lang

[devout wasp]

yea this the type of sentence that gets an asterisk in a linguistic text lmao

[light brook]

the cat in the shat hat

[turbid nova]

I always thought americans wrote dates as month/day bc they say May 21st instead of 21st of May
But the english also use day/month so you have no excuse

[knotty zodiac]

yyyy/mm/dd is the superior format 🙂

[turbid nova]

At least you’re consistent

And for file names this is the best one

[light brook]

mm/yyyy/dd people where we at

[devout wasp]

one type of poetic emphasis that can occur in latin that can't occur in english is just, separating a word from what it modifies, across an entire sentence even

[dusty flame]

yyyy/mm/dd

[turbid nova]

???? 😭

[turbid nova]

Akiiiii

What’s up

[dusty flame]

Nickkk

[dusty flame]

Nothing much

[cloud sinew]

I remember reading a book where the whole premise was about being as ambiguous as possible as to whether something was an adjective, noun or a verb (learned about it from Vsauce iirc)
it was for the most part just your usual garden-path sentences, but there were some really cool ones in there

[knotty zodiac]

gonna give mmyy/dd/yy a shot

[dusty flame]

ymmyyddy

[turbid nova]

What is the actual reason for this

[devout wasp]

like if you want to emphasize that a hat is very brown while saying it fell off someone's head, you could do something kinda like "brown off someone's head the hat fell"

[dusty flame]

So today would be

20502216

[turbid nova]

banger system

[cloud sinew]

because thats what the British used to do

[dusty flame]

Tomorrow would be 20502226

Really intuitive

[turbid nova]

Oh same as imperial units

[devout wasp]

this breaks the "expected" SOV order but because subject and object are marked by syntactic suffixes, you don't wind up with any ambiguity

[dusty flame]

Nick bye love you

[knotty zodiac]

https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/dec/16/why-do-americans-write-the-month-before-the-day

tldr: no one knows why

[cloud sinew]

if you're not sure why something is done that way in the US, 40% of the time it's just "because the British used to"

[turbid nova]

Byee

[modest mist]

First abandoned deck run.

[turbid nova]

What’s cool about spanish is the tacit noun/pronoun

[modest mist]

Build of hopes and dreams 🙏

[turbid nova]

You can omit a personal pronoun if it’s already been said in context

[devout wasp]

yeah latin has those kinds of elision as well! (as is probably not surprising)

[turbid nova]

We went to the beach -> (Nosotros) fuimos a la playa

[devout wasp]

you can elide both personal pronouns and even the copula ("to be")

[turbid nova]

You can omit the we bc the verb already specifies the person

[cloud sinew]

we don't know for certain, but it's very likely that they just kept the British way of writing it

[lament condor]

vampire is top 3 xmult

[knotty zodiac]

do we know if the british used to write it mm/dd?

[modest mist]

@frank grove

First Abandoned Deck run ever

Hope I made you proud :D

[lament condor]

I love vampire

it's synergies are so cool

[modest mist]

I did not use Vamp

[modest mist]

This was my chopped asl build

Wheel of Fortune was the biggest crutch here

[lament condor]

in most of your other runs you should probably get some form of scaling xmult

[modest mist]

The only one I got was Photograph

Photochad would've been USELESS unless I had pareidolia to make all of my cards face cards so its effect can go off.

[lament condor]

scaling xmult is not photograph, also thats really unlucky you found nothing else, great job for making that run work!

[modest mist]

It was just a lot of two pair spam

In like, Antes 1-5

Rest was just spamming flushes

[knotty zodiac]

if you draw both a flush and a straight that oneshots in round 1, which do u play?

maybe straight for supernova value to make the run a bit more straightcoded?

[turbid nova]

???

[modest mist]

And I also got this which saved my run

[cloud sinew]

we have strong historical evidence of both being used at the same time, but it was primarily in written words not numerical dates.
look at any 18-19th century newspaper and you'll see it written as both DD-MM-YY and "Month" the "date"

[cloud sinew]

maybe on zodiac

but elsewhere, definitely not

[knotty zodiac]

so 15-02-67 and February the 15th

where did mm-dd come from then? a corruption of the second format?

[light brook]

midas vampire my beloved 🤤

[split rivet]

okay i watched some balatro uni vids I will now commit to play a bunch of pair games for the first time to see if it's me or you guys that are the weirdos

[turbid nova]

They’re not the weirdos it’s the majority opinion

[knotty zodiac]

dont forget that you need a chip source to switch over ^^

[light brook]

the majority can still be weird

[cloud sinew]

this is what we mean by "insulting" 😭

[stoic sand]

what are some jokers that hanging chad is good with

[turbid nova]

I just don’t like that when I say I think playing just pairs are not fun everyone goes “ok I guess you don’t like winning” “enjoy losing”

[stoic sand]

i'm playing abandoned right now, so no photograph

[waxen quartz]

all of them

[turbid nova]

There’s not one way to win fellas

[light brook]

photo, suit jokers, wee, lucky cat, just to name a few

[stoic sand]

alright

chad or ramen? lol

[light brook]

paradoelia and chad is the best combo

[knotty zodiac]

fib, scholar, odd todd

i would also look for gold seals and magician tarots

[cloud sinew]

you're completely valid for not liking them, but avoiding them will make you lose more often

[stoic sand]

oh right seals

good point

[dawn summit]

There are definitely some seeds where anything else is just not a valid option, at least for the majority of the run

[devout wasp]

there isn't, it's true --- and you will find that in most cases my advice is "play what you want" --- but also i generally give my advice assuming that what the listener is concerned with is winrate, and one of the most pernicious winrate leaks in any game like this is personal preference of any kind

for a different example, i have probably lost 100 runs because i Didn't Like being offered banner or something

and died in ante 1 because i stubbornly thought i'd see a diff joker

[cloud sinew]

if your priority is winning as much as possible, then preference will eventually align perfectly with what is optimal

[devout wasp]

yeah the second piece of "play what you want" is, at least eventually, "want to play what wins"

[cloud sinew]

mhm

I play for fun, but I have fun winning, so for me "fun" is almost always what wins

[devout wasp]

but also i think it's easy to fall out of love with a game if you don't learn the suboptimalities of your initial preferences by experience

[cloud sinew]

and that's why I don't really like when people say that they "play for fun" to mean that they dont care about winning, like... we all play for fun 🤷‍♀️

[lunar solar]

Correct!

[devout wasp]

sure, i think it's probably more accurate to say "i don't care much about winning"

though i think there's a social disincentive to say that

[cloud sinew]

how so?

[knotty zodiac]

its perfectly valid to prefer a different playstyle

when beginners are asking for tips, they probably want to win more, and hiding the most consistent strategy from them because you're bored with them is doing them a disservice

[devout wasp]

like, not in terms of that being actually punished behavior in any way, just like, a felt disincentive

depends on where and how you were socialized, but i suspect some people feel that expressing "not caring about winning" is effectively copium

[hearty tusk]

"becuz win is good, why person not want win? is person stupid?"

[cloud sinew]

because there's a disconnect between your values?
like when someone is talking about endless balance and someone else gets annoyed because that's not what they agree with as being the "balance" context

[stoic sand]

abandoned deck is sick

thanks guys

really enjoying it

[cloud sinew]

im gonna streak it next once im satisfied with how much ive played zodiac

[stoic sand]

like win streaking?

[cloud sinew]

yeah

[waxen quartz]

who cares if you can win if you can abuse seance? https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1486718775809019934/1506345140871237753/Screenshot_20260519_131632.png?ex=6a0fe6fc&is=6a0e957c&hm=2036e18b4de26a7a1446bbf736966fa251f2908c5e08f7b9b657676fe133b805&

[cloud sinew]

i lost a run to seance greed recently :(

[patent sail]

duping the STM, immolate or wraith (i have 3 bucks)?

[cloud sinew]

immolate

[patent sail]

and it hit my fucking queen

great

[devout wasp]

i think what i mean is, someone may feel defensive about the idea of not caring about winning, so they create a construct of "playing for fun", as opposed to the not-fun they imagine from playing for winrate, partly as a way to preempt imagined accusations of "copium", and partly as a way to keep themselves from having to acknowledge that they might in fact have more fun on the other side. so i guess so

[cloud sinew]

its fine, you have $20

[cloud sinew]

ah

[patent sail]

what the fuck i do this a lot

[knotty zodiac]

do you think ppl tend to be more concerned about self-perception vs others-perception? (whether they realize it or not)

[cloud sinew]

like, they disagree and they have fun not winning, and you focus on winning more than they do, so you must not play for fun

[devout wasp]

i'm dead sure i've done it myself

[cloud sinew]

others perception for sure

other people really dont think about you anywhere near as much as you think they think about you

like "ohhh that was so awkward" like 10 minutes after an interaction, but that person probably thought about it for like 10s and then moved on

[split rivet]

I have fun not winning because I have fun with just sending it and making wacky builds

[devout wasp]

not necessarily, i think more often it is imagined external perception that drives a lot more behavior than self-perception

[cloud sinew]

oh wait do you mean others-perception as in how you see other people, not how others see you?

[patent sail]

hi im the person who thinks for 10 except replace seconds with hours

[knotty zodiac]

how others see you

[cloud sinew]

yeah

[devout wasp]

and like to be clear, nothing in that is any grave moral error or anything, everyone does this to some extent at at least some point in life

[red briar]

bro whhuuat

i didnt even know it was possible to get a brainstorm from judgement

[cloud sinew]

ya

you can even get editions

[red briar]

am i going crazy rn,,

[cloud sinew]

including negative

[patent sail]

why wpuld it not

[knotty zodiac]

hm kinda torn on swash

i think im supposed to take it..? 0 planets 0 valuegen

[red briar]

dont ask why 4 fingers is there its not doing anythign

[patent sail]

ive had 2 negatives drop from judgement

[red briar]

aaand it copied the brainstorm

gg

[patent sail]

actual nightmare

[red briar]

w bloodstone??

[dawn summit]

Wild

Ive had 0 in like 600 hours

[knotty zodiac]

lol is it modded flavor text or is the joker actually changed

[patent sail]

those werent anything too imsane but pretty good ones

[patent sail]

my localization pack

[patent sail]

drunkard and i think chad

[knotty zodiac]

slightly greedy, gonna skip. im in a bad spot if i dont find something within next 2 rounds tho

[cloud sinew]

okay im starting to get bored of zodiac because im washed

[knotty zodiac]

lowrolls? getting tired? something else?

[cloud sinew]

im just making bad plays

i switched from blue -> yellow -> zodiac

so im used to having an extra hand or very good econ off the bat

[patent sail]

i dont need to be tired to make horrible gameplay decisions

[eager lance]

second naneinf! i think i can get this to ante 39

[cloud sinew]

i think im just lazy tbh

my ADHD meds havent really kicked in yet

[red briar]

run is over 🙏

[patent sail]

throwback from judgement EWWWW

[red briar]

e we w ew

get it away

[patent sail]

unfortunately staying for now

getting killed for the first poly i come across

[waxen quartz]

what's the plan for ante 32?

[patent sail]

probably not die

[turbid nova]

Peak

[waxen quartz]

well could have bean bug and 50 hand size, that'd be fine

[patent sail]

NEGATIVE STICKERLESS CHAOS

this is so free

[eager lance]

have all steel cards and replace reverse parking with dna or bean (my hand size is 26)

or troubador

[turbid nova]

No it’s not free it costs like $8

[patent sail]

free because im dumb and took a negative tag

(i learn nothing)

[cloud sinew]

it pays itself off in 2 rerolls

[cloud sinew]

it costs $9 iirc

[patent sail]

hes blue sticker too so like

taking him for that gold

[red briar]

does matador work on the hook or nah

[turbid nova]

I think so

[cloud sinew]

no

but it does work on the flint

[turbid nova]

Really

[cloud sinew]

which is so stupid

[patent sail]

spunds like it would but the game is dumb

[turbid nova]

Oh my god what a bum

[patent sail]

WHERE is +mult vro

[eager lance]

https://medal.tv/games/balatro/clips/mKPzyHolLnhyIAtfj?invite=cr-MSx6d1EsMjAxMDU1Mzc3&v=147

[patent sail]

who ate it all

[cloud sinew]

i am very glad that matador is being reworked

[patent sail]

rn im actually carried by throwback

[turbid nova]

Any hint on what it will do

[cloud sinew]

if it was ANY OTHER DECK... 😭

[patent sail]

it will trigger sometimes

[turbid nova]

Throwback secretly S tier?

[cloud sinew]

holo rental business would be takeable

[patent sail]

S tier right up until i find any polychrome

[waxen quartz]

1/2 chance of $8 on check the wiki for which bosses

[patent sail]

FOIL FIST game saved me thanks

[cloud sinew]

we don't know

[stoic sand]

so is the basic conception you acquire a source of chips, a source of mult and some x mult?

[cloud sinew]

yes

[patent sail]

econ too perhaps

[stoic sand]

generally when i've acquired all three of those early on my win was guaranteed even if i didn't play especially well

[split rivet]

for the first time ever i am enjoying a campfire run

[patent sail]

no.

[turbid nova]

Yep

[stoic sand]

seems like there's a lot of rng involved in acquiring the correct setup though

[fickle wraith]

matador is an excellent econ joker but it should be reworked to make intuitive sense

[stoic sand]

how do people manage to go on these long gold stake win streaks without having the rng fuck their shit up?

[turbid nova]

I wouldn’t call it excelent

[cloud sinew]

you have to roll with the punches, there's no "correct" setup besides the one that wins

[turbid nova]

Looking at the alternatives

[patent sail]

matador on ox 🤤🤤🤤

[fickle wraith]

yumbers

[cloud sinew]

there are a lot of optimisations you can do to mitigate RNG

[turbid nova]

Credit card synergy!!!!

[patent sail]

lose all your money BUT gain 8 bucks!!!!

[stoic sand]

so play around whatever the game gives you, but try to stick to that recipe of chips/mult/x?

[fickle wraith]

but $8 per hand in general is no joke

[cloud sinew]

generally yeah

[stoic sand]

i see

i'm guessing rerolling the shop then is more important than buying packs early on?

generally speaking

[turbid nova]

always take jonkler packs

[stoic sand]

i tend to fall in the trap of buying celestial packs to level my hands but i've found i generally lose out on that investment lol

tarot packs seem decent, kind of a gamble on getting an early hermit

[earnest flame]

If you had to discard something here what would you do

[turbid nova]

If I don’t find an econ joker I usually play it safe

[cloud sinew]

rerolling is quite a lot more expensive considering you have to spend money to see new options and then you actually have to spend money to get them

[turbid nova]

Til i get to the interest cap

[earnest flame]

These kinds of lessons you dont get with meta builds

[turbid nova]

I very rarely reroll early

[waxen quartz]

save up for interest cap first. buy what you know you're getting

[cloud sinew]

why do you have to discard

because i simply wouldnt discard there

[turbid nova]

Move the queen to the left

[earnest flame]

If you had to, John balatro was making you

[trail ridge]

🃏🃏🃏they made jimbo into a emoji🥹🥹🃏🃏🃏🃏🃏🃏🃏🃏🃏

[cloud sinew]

i would discard the 8-8-4-4

[lunar zealot]

lilo can you try this seed on gold stake black deck

SS6Z4A85

[cloud sinew]

yes

[fickle wraith]

b

no more internet for me okay

play 10s and 4s two pair and then discard for queens maybe

[lunar zealot]

literally the first run i got on my 2nd profile

[fickle wraith]

oh

[lunar zealot]

absolutely insane

but it's red deck white stake

with 0 unlocks

so i'm curious to see if it's possible with gold stake black deck 100% collection

[fickle wraith]

m

[turbid nova]

I’ve never played seeded how do they work on non complete collections

Do they limit the seed pool

[earnest flame]

I will not be doing that for the whole run, update should make it so it just take the order from way jokers are ordered, such a pain with fist for example

And steel should also trigger after fist

[turbid nova]

I mean

[earnest flame]

And moon

[turbid nova]

It’s not a big deal

[earnest flame]

It is once you have steel

[lunar zealot]

what the fuck is this profile

[earnest flame]

Queen baron fist steel

Oops my hand is all messed up

[turbid nova]

Don’t steel the queens

You find your way around it

[earnest flame]

Of course you can play around it, but it doesnt make it fun or a challenging mechanic, more of an annoyance

Its not a fun minigame

[turbid nova]

With raised fist I usually steel Ace or king bc they prob won’t be the lowest rank

[earnest flame]

I want to set the order once and be done with it

[turbid nova]

I don’t think it’s a big deal

[earnest flame]

And then you add shoot the moon and get ready to shuffle your cards every hand

It should be a set order, joker order + steel last

A quality of life update

Im sure the dislike for fist would decrease too with that

Reordering your hand is something that the game doesnt teach you and its a pretty important part for those jokers

Its a bit obscure of an mechanic

[turbid nova]

You mean steel triggers after your +mult

[earnest flame]

Steel should always be the last on hand triggers

[turbid nova]

hmmm

[cloud sinew]

Its probably fine

[earnest flame]

I really dont mind it nerfing some niche score lowering mechanics for farming reasons which matter in one in a thousand runs

Or if its an issue then put it in as an option, the new qol way or the old way

[lunar zealot]

man what the fuck

[turbid nova]

I think it’s just something you learn while playing

[turbid nova]

Holy shit baron

[tranquil oasis]

stuntman in plasma is so fun

[cloud sinew]

i love stuntman

[turbid nova]

“Oh why didn’t the steel work like I wanted” and you find out you can reorder your hand

[earnest flame]

I literally only learned it watching doc when I started wondering why is he putting cards in different order, you rarely play jokers that even do held in hand triggers and even then the effect is minimum

Going full blind its not a mechanic that is easily picked up

[turbid nova]

Some +mult happens during scoring and that makes steels more worth it

[earnest flame]

Just screws over new players and its not a high skill thing that adds alot to the game

Its just shuffling around hand after hand

[earnest flame]

Most often that is like lusty etc. And there order does not matter

[turbid nova]

I would be on board to adding an option that made all newly drawn cards appear to the right of the ones currently in hand

[earnest flame]

It only applies to fist, baron and shoot the moon

[turbid nova]

Wouldn’t be useful most of the time but for some runs ig

[earnest flame]

An obscure mechanic for three jonklers

Just make it work like it should without making me shuffle cards around 50 times in a run

[lament condor]

I love vampire

[turbid nova]

Raised fist is like rly good early though

So is stm

[earnest flame]

And you dont have much steel then

[cloud sinew]

STM is a lot more vulnerable to bad draws

especially against hook, manacle, psychic

[turbid nova]

Yeah

[earnest flame]

Again, its such a small thing that im surprised if you pick it up yourself

[cloud sinew]

eh probably not psychic

[earnest flame]

Majority of new players barely understand putting xmult to the right

[turbid nova]

Me putting photo to the right because it’s xmult 😎

[earnest flame]

Shuffling held in hand cards does not add much complexity or depth to the game

Just a chore

Id love to get docs take on this

[turbid nova]

(You should do it for smiley face tho)

[stoic sand]

is rebate actually good or are you guys trolling?

[turbid nova]

I’m on the “it’s not that deep” camp

[earnest flame]

Why do you think its bad is a good question at this point

Or not good

[cloud sinew]

discard is, on average, just over $10 a round

it's incredible

[lunar zealot]

rebate is the best joker in the game

[cloud sinew]

and that's at blue stake+ with a base deck

[livid scroll]

MAYBE THERE IS A GOD

[lunar zealot]

which sounds audacious given yorick and cavendish exist but it's completely true

you can't get the conditions for yorick and cavendish to be good without money

[stoic sand]

i don't think that it's bad but i can't tell if there are better economy jokers

[lunar zealot]

there are none

[cloud sinew]

there are situationally better ones

but generally, rebate is king

[turbid nova]

Blackboard better

[stoic sand]

i'll keep my eyes out for it

[earnest flame]

Some are better situationally but rebate almost always is just better

[earnest flame]

You were faster

Burger parking my beloved

[turbid nova]

Golden joker is a good baseline

[knotty zodiac]

if you play 3 hands and use 1 discard, you see your initial 8 starting cards + 20 more cards

so 28 out of 52 card before you have to use your final discard

this means on an unfixed deck, you'll see just over 2 of each rank on average

which means rebate gives you $10 per turn on average, assuming you play 5 cards and discard 5 cards every time

rebate is the best econ joker and is one of the reasons why pairs are so strong

[turbid nova]

John economy

[earnest flame]

Rough gem on checkered

[turbid nova]

What does rebate have to do with pairs

[cloud sinew]

you don't really care about keeping cards in hand compared to other builds

so discarding 5 at a time is completely fine

[knotty zodiac]

well, it makes pairs and hc better than larger hands because you can confidently play fully / discard fully without deckfixing, and get full value out of rebate

[turbid nova]

Grimbo found dead in an alleyway

[devout wasp]

grimbo + rebate perfectly workable

[turbid nova]

How

[devout wasp]

minus 2 but plus 4 is still net positive

[lunar zealot]

what's the joker for getting to ante 10 again

wait no not a joker

it's petroglyph

[knotty zodiac]

$5 is usually worth -1 mult

you calculate to make sure you dont die but otherwise you take the discard if it procs value

[cloud sinew]

-1 mult for $5+ is a good tradeoff most of the time

[earnest flame]

I wonder if on average ouija is a bigger nerf than a buff for rebate

[livid scroll]

before i get into any trouble, this should be the optimal placement right

[devout wasp]

you don't want to do it aggressively the whole time but it totally works

[turbid nova]

12

[lunar zealot]

ah 12

well i'm getting there

i have photochad

[cloud sinew]

and the way you should minmax grimbo and rebate is wait to discard until you can discard as many of the rebate rank as you can with 1 discard

[lunar zealot]

LOL

[knotty zodiac]

(which you should usually be doing anyways even without grimbo)

[cloud sinew]

mhm

[lunar zealot]

this is my 2nd run on this profile btw

[livid scroll]

alright got it, thanks

[turbid nova]

If thunk actually reworks blue stake it could alter the meta

[cloud sinew]

it will be reworked

[knotty zodiac]

im looking forward to larger hands being more playable

[cloud sinew]

and it would alter the meta

but if blue stake is the only significant change, then pairs will still be meta

[knotty zodiac]

but... i dont think its possible to fix full house x)

[slow bluff]

can anyone recommend a video guide about how to shape a deck? I cant really get my head around it im not sure when to look for mult jokers, chip, or open tarot packs etc.

[earnest flame]

Hey you probability geniuses, ouija for rebate, bad or good or neutral, best case scenario where you end up with 11 of the same card

[lunar zealot]

19FG4QY5

lmfao

[turbid nova]

Bad you will lose

[cloud sinew]

best case scenario is where you end up with 12 (8 base handsize, none of the converted rank in hand)

[knotty zodiac]

12*

[lunar zealot]

there is no way for me to get stronger

i think

[devout wasp]

intuition tells me that a less than 25% chance of rebate hitting the good rank, together with -1 handsize, is net negative

[earnest flame]

Doesn't ouija always pick one from the ones you draw

[knotty zodiac]

no

[cloud sinew]

no

[lunar zealot]

so i hope i can get to ante 12

and i don't get planted

i have some glasses

i could have gone baron/mime this seed

[earnest flame]

For some reason the only time I read it and decided its bad I thought it read that it picks one from what you pulled and makes em all the same

[serene forge]

it does work sometimes

[turbid nova]

I think even if ouija let you choose the rank it would still be bad

[slow bluff]

can anyone recommend a video guide about how to shape a deck? I cant really get my head around it im not sure when to look for mult jokers, chip, or open tarot packs etc.

[knotty zodiac]

ouija proccing for 12 is probably still bad in the median case. stuntman gives you 250 chips for the -2 hand size and you can get rid of it when your planets are high enough

[earnest flame]

To make it even close to immolate you would need to be able to choose rank with no negatives

[cloud sinew]

~23% of the time it would hit your 12x rank, and youd get a little under 3x value in that scenario, but you hurt your digging the other 77% of the time

[turbid nova]

Make it all spades and clubs and pray you get blackboard

[waxen quartz]

ouija would be fine except for the -1 handsize. think mp does that change?

[eager lance]

DO I TAKE WRAITH???

[slow bluff]

how do you even make it all king

[cloud sinew]

-$38,034 for a chance at HTR!!!!!

[turbid nova]

the worst rare

[cloud sinew]

no that's baron

[eager lance]

sounds good

[eager lance]

thats like the least impressive think u could have seen in this screenshot

[turbid nova]

I will keep slandering htr until I get a good run with it

[lunar zealot]

why am i having fun with white stake

[turbid nova]

Baron actually carried a gs run for me

[earnest flame]

Immolate is truly busted and I dont know if it should be nerfed, its just such an outlier among the spectrals

[lunar zealot]

is my brain rotting

[serene forge]

i wan estrogen

[patent sail]

i sell jolly joker to pop judgement and it spawned jolly joker

[slow bluff]

40 hours pt and i have NO idea how to do that

[turbid nova]

Wdym X it actually happened

[lunar zealot]

oh right i should lose this run

and continue from menu

[cloud sinew]

-3 and +$10 would be a good change i think. cuts it's power more than in half, but it would still be very strong

[eager lance]

😭 i have like less time than that

[livid scroll]

i take back everything i said

[slow bluff]

dang

[glass creek]

Would've been a negative blueprint if you had kept the jolly joker

[eager lance]

did u see how much money i had. thats way more impressive than having all kings

[serene forge]

the baron run:

[patent sail]

full slots

[slow bluff]

i saw the money

[knotty zodiac]

wdyt about random effect? 1/2 the time it deletes 5, 1/2 the time it gives $20

[earnest flame]

Even without the money it would still be the best consumable imo, 5 card removal is just so good

[turbid nova]

No it was baron brainstorm

[patent sail]

cant pop judgment on full slots

[cloud sinew]

i dont like it

[earnest flame]

Please no

[cloud sinew]

slapping a 1/2 on something is a very unfun way of balancing something imo

[earnest flame]

There is enough chance things already

[ancient gyro]

interesting seed

[earnest flame]

You just nerfed it by 50% and made it super frustrating

[turbid nova]

2e12 on ante 9 with a (sadly) perishable mime

[earnest flame]

Expected value 10$ and 2.5 cards removed

[cloud sinew]

@lunar zealot

[knotty zodiac]

I think ppl play balatro because it is somewhat random. So randomness is a sliding scale that can be adjusted by the designer

[cloud sinew]

the other day I had a 70 loss streak and I'm about to one-attempt this seed 😭

[devout wasp]

sure, but not all kinds of randomness are created equal

[knotty zodiac]

More random isn't inherently less good

[cloud sinew]

there are more or less fun versions of random

[lunar zealot]

bbc 🥹

[earnest flame]

There is random in a fun and challenging way and then there is just awful mechanics like that or bloodstone

[devout wasp]

take for example the age old conversation of "cards vs dice" for game mechanics

[knotty zodiac]

Are lucky cards awful?

[cloud sinew]

no

[knotty zodiac]

Why not?

[hearty tusk]

oh am so gonna fist it

[devout wasp]

a deck of cards with 6 cards in it presents, at first, the same 1-in-6 as a d6, but the deck of cards will also eventually have each of the 6 cards on top

[cloud sinew]

because theyre not primarily for scoring

but you also use them so much that

the variance doesnt really matter that much

[serene forge]

I <3 yuri

[earnest flame]

Its the fun kind if random when you get random jokers offered to you, then there is the awful kind of random like bloodstone that either works or you lose

[knotty zodiac]

Individual $20 hits are absolutely the difference between winning and losing a number of runs

[hearty tusk]

should i get rid of giftcard

[devout wasp]

they are, but you can meaningfully mitigate the randomness of lucky cards by sheer volume, for example

[hearty tusk]

egg is on 30 btw

[devout wasp]

whereas a random immolate is just 50/50 it fucks you

and you can only do that like, once a shop at most

[cloud sinew]

and with how low the entry cost to luckies are, and that you dont need to keep paying to use them once you have them on your cards

[knotty zodiac]

I don't think it necessarily fucks you, it just means you can't take it if you only have use for one thing

[lunar zealot]

ayy petroglyph

now i think i die

[glass creek]

Hitting that $20 always feels so satisfying

[lunar zealot]

nevermind petroglyph

thanks

[earnest flame]

Id probably skip every spectral pack if immolate had 50% chance of working, what else is there

[turbid nova]

I know tarots are supposed to be the same rarity but I find magician very frequently

[cloud sinew]

making the effect triggering be chance based instead of just reducing the effect itself makes it less fun because you're gambling on whether or not it will trigger

[patent sail]

perishable bp 🎉🎊

[lunar zealot]

i think i can fully activate idol

at least if i can get it before i die

how do i unlock sock and buskin again

SOUL?

[knotty zodiac]

That's not inherently unfun. That's a personal preference

[patent sail]

200 faces played

[cloud sinew]

there is no inherent "fun"

[lunar zealot]

oh it's perkeo

[turbid nova]

I love gambling 🔥 🎰

[cloud sinew]

but more people would prefer it be reduced than be chance based

[lunar zealot]

if it were trib i'd keep it

ok i just need

[knotty zodiac]

Most winstreakers sure

And also it's probably a bias towards status quo. If it was introduced as 1/2 this 1/2 that, there would be less complaints

[lunar zealot]

to remove 1 card

[patent sail]

all ehancement tarots leaving the shop as soon as i get myself the vampire:

[lunar zealot]

then i can find idol and use it

[devout wasp]

i disagree --- if it was 1/2 20$ and 1/2 5 card removal, i just wouldn't take spectral packs

[lunar zealot]

gg time to find idol

[knotty zodiac]

Trance isn't good enough?

[lunar zealot]

hai baby

[earnest flame]

Have u seen how many people absolutely love the way wheel works

I haven't

[cloud sinew]

same with space joker

[patent sail]

dude give chad a copy too

[turbid nova]

Wait are we talking about immolate

[earnest flame]

Yes

[cloud sinew]

space and wheel get so many complaints because they don't feel like good RNG, even if it is actually 1/4

[devout wasp]

at those probabilities? not particularly no, in most cases

i'd rather open standards to get blue seals if immolate is bad

[patent sail]

space is funny, wheel is not funny

[knotty zodiac]

it depends on the style of gamer ofc. plenty of ppl love to play high variance plays

[cloud sinew]

the same is true for 8ball

[glass creek]

I love space joker!!!!!

[lunar zealot]

LET IT RIP

awesome

[devout wasp]

i like controllable and predictable variance more than simply variance For The Sake Of It

[icy hollow]

😭 😭 😭 🙏

[turbid nova]

Hell yeah

[earnest flame]

That is really not how balatro is designed, it has some outlier mechanics like that but most of the time its anything but random chance

[serene forge]

most emotionally mature face card user

[lunar zealot]

i think i lose now

[cloud sinew]

you're being insincere if you don't think that most new, or newer, players have a negative opinion about 8ball, space and wheel's RNG

[lunar zealot]

i wanna try to lose by running out of cards though

[patent sail]

the downvotes

[serene forge]

what the hell are you doing

[lunar zealot]

that's always fun

[lunar zealot]

2nd profile shenanigans

this is my 2nd run

[turbid nova]

Brah had mr bones

[stoic sand]

what's the consensus on playing the small blind ante 1 at higher stakes?

[turbid nova]

Could have planned ahead

Skill issue

[lunar zealot]

you still do it

[patent sail]

give me a sec

[serene forge]

always do it unless investment tag

[stoic sand]

worth playing despite the lack of $ or should you always skip for tags?

[knotty zodiac]

I'm not being insincere. I'm asserting that you can't know whether the game is more fun with the wheel or without it because it'd be a revealed preference, which could differ from stated preference

[glass creek]

Only worth skipping for an investment tag

[patent sail]

here you go

[eager lance]

just got to 51.9k on the same ante 💀

[devout wasp]

almost always play. investment tag is often worth but outside of that, seeing the shop after small blind matters so much more than the missing 3 dollars

[lunar zealot]

OUGHHHHHHHHHHH

wait i have director's cut

never punished

[stoic sand]

investment is the $25 one right?

[devout wasp]

yeye

[stoic sand]

thanks

[knotty zodiac]

Would the shop be more fun if we removed half of the jokers?

[earnest flame]

Huh

[devout wasp]

what about my opinion suggests that i would prefer that?

[patent sail]

it would be if we removed showman

[glass creek]

Eternal steel joker

[cloud sinew]

how is that relevant

[patent sail]

hell

[turbid nova]

Showman can give you anything, even a showman!

[earnest flame]

Are you implying that half of the jokers have no purpose?

[knotty zodiac]

Removing jokers would make the shop queue more predictable

[patent sail]

thats what he always gives

[devout wasp]

i feel that, with the present joker pool, shops are appreciably controllable or predictable enough in their variance

and i think suggesting that my opinion leads to wanting to remove half the pool as a Natural Conclusion is not charitable to my statements

[waxen quartz]

takes a mod. just changing the unlock file, you get them back starting up the game

[lunar zealot]

if i discard this hand i die instantly

[patent sail]

begging my eternal spaceman i do something rn

[cloud sinew]

it would also reduce build variety very heavily.
there isn't only a plus side to that

[lunar zealot]

chat do i do it

[glass creek]

Add 3 trillion jokers

[stoic sand]

i think i asked this already, but should i hold off on buying celestial packs until mid game?

[lunar zealot]

nahhh i wanna run out of cards

[knotty zodiac]

I never asserted that you must believe this, but I want to parse the differences.

[lunar zealot]

i've never done it before

[turbid nova]

Funniest balatro screenshot of all time

[lunar zealot]

i need to hang more men

[patent sail]

honestly could make this a speechbubble

[devout wasp]

well let me state one key difference: i can't reroll a wheel of fortune. i can reroll a shop

[turbid nova]

Make the speech bubble come from the showman on the joker slots

[cloud sinew]

@lunar zealot

[knotty zodiac]

you can acquire another wheel of fortune from the shop...

[devout wasp]

that is not close to being the same

[cloud sinew]

not controllably

[lunar zealot]

🥹

[patent sail]

wait its actually perfect

[knotty zodiac]

or you could acquire a space joker, or a bloodstone, or an oops, or a number of things that interact with the probability system

[turbid nova]

wheel -> , fool the wheel, wheel ->

[turbid nova]

Saving this thanks

[lunar zealot]

fucking blemish on my stats

[serene forge]

even in brain damage mode you still play pair the most

[lunar zealot]

get OUT

[cloud sinew]

i dont see how those are comparable

[devout wasp]

indeed, i could! but my point is, my issue with flat probability variance on individual cards is that i am completely constrained in the ways i can possibly control or predict said variance

[lunar zealot]

GET OUT BRO

HOLY SHIT

[patent sail]

spaceman PLEASE do something oh my god

[lunar zealot]

IM NEVER PLAYING ENDLESS AGAIN

[devout wasp]

and none of the counterexamples of "other variance" that keep getting brought up are comparable to this issue that i take

[lunar zealot]

funniest spectral spread

[turbid nova]

Looking for chance jokers when I find the dice

[cloud sinew]

Loyalty card vs Bloodstone is a good comparison for what you're talking about I think

[patent sail]

SPACEMAN DO SOMETHING PLEASE

[devout wasp]

excellent example, actually

[patent sail]

i died

spaceman didnt trigger a single time

[lunar zealot]

oh i forgot tags exist.

ugggggggghhhhhhhhhhh

[earnest flame]

Dice increases the odds of them not showing up from 1/4 to 2/4

[lunar zealot]

i have to unlock the tags

goddamn it

[cloud sinew]

you need to actually find the editions to "unlock" the edition tags too lol

[lunar zealot]

UGGHHHHHHHHHH

by find do you mean find in shop or buy

[cloud sinew]

you need to have discovered the edition

[turbid nova]

They should make a joker whose displayed chance is a bad outcome just so it works bad with dice

To be evil

[lunar zealot]

UGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[cloud sinew]

and with Rare Tag you need to have discovered Blueprint

lol

[devout wasp]

cavendish

[patent sail]

glass cards (not a joker but idc)

[turbid nova]

Glass joker synergy

[patent sail]

without him

[cloud sinew]

deck thinning value

[patent sail]

i swear when i get glass joker glass cards become unbreakable

[lunar zealot]

pop quiz to everyone here: which ones are still locked

[patent sail]

those ones

[turbid nova]

The 4 on the bottom are the suit specific ones like bloodstone

(larp)

[knotty zodiac]

okay, so let's examine the difference between a shop roll, a wheel, and a lucky hit

the lucky hit is readily available if you draw the card and have hands available
the shop roll is readily available if you can fork over the cash
the wheel is readily available if you have a source of tarot gen

so is the only reason why wheel is undesirable because tarot gen is less abundant than money or hands?

[hearty tusk]

i got this on the exact shop before violet vessel

[turbid nova]

Wait actually?

That was a wild guess

[patent sail]

here, win

[turbid nova]

I might have better memory than I thought

[earnest flame]

With glass cards the chance is good mechanic because its supposed to be a rarely used effect to barely inch out a win if you are struggling and it doesn't matter if they break or not most of the cases

[cloud sinew]

the stones, certificate, sock, acrobat, bones, and ticket i think

which makes sense given the unlock conditions

[earnest flame]

Which has made it so people dont build around glass cards

[lunar zealot]

ding ding ding

[earnest flame]

But use it as a last ditch effort

Because glass is super strong

[lunar zealot]

the tism is too strong

[cloud sinew]

it is

[turbid nova]

The stones condition was have 30 of the suit in the deck right

[patent sail]

rental clown or banana

[turbid nova]

Bloodstone and arrowhead are free on checkered

[devout wasp]

...yes?

[cloud sinew]

i would take faceless

wait no its ante 6

[brave goblet]

Turns out blast off is just pairslop

[devout wasp]

when i say controllable and predictable variance what else do you think i could mean

[patent sail]

ante 3

[cloud sinew]

id still take facless

[patent sail]

what ante 6

[hearty tusk]

am sorry if i ever doubt you kings

[turbid nova]

Blast off is hell on earth

[patent sail]

faceless it is!

[cloud sinew]

i processed it as ante 3 i just didnt communicate it as ante 3

[patent sail]

you ever doubted them???

[turbid nova]

Least fun I’ve had playing this game

[brave goblet]

it's such a stupid challenge

[patent sail]

golden needle

[cloud sinew]

blast off is one of the hardest challenges for sure

[lunar zealot]

huh which ones am i missing

[cloud sinew]

it's so inconsistent

[turbid nova]

Nah blast off is worse

[patent sail]

no

[hearty tusk]

before i knew how to play the game

[cloud sinew]

i think blast off is worse

[turbid nova]

On golden needle I had bluestorm so I got lucky ig

But still

[brave goblet]

golden needle is slightly more skill based than blast off

[cloud sinew]

as someone who has done CG twice now

[patent sail]

blast off was annoying but not nearly as scary

[pale wolf]

im gonna beat blast off in 1 try rn

[lunar zealot]

what's blast off again

[patent sail]

golden needle keeps you permanently on the edge

[pale wolf]

challenge deck 🦓

[turbid nova]

on the edge of a needle you might say

[lunar zealot]

that's what she said

[cloud sinew]

4 joker slots, 2 hands 2 discards, start with an eternal rocket and constellation

[lunar zealot]

sounds ruff

[cloud sinew]

it's very rough

[patent sail]

at least conste is good

[brave goblet]

don't forget you start with planet merchant and tycoon

[patent sail]

and you get both planet vouchers i think

right?

[brave goblet]

ye

[turbid nova]

Const scales so slowww though

[knotty zodiac]

well, a single event could be less random, or you could have access to more of them so it averages out

for the former case, we could change lucky cards so that they always give $1 or $2, or 1 in 3 chance of giving $4. would that make the game feel better? is that something that most players would prefer?

[cloud sinew]

it doesnt really do anything for you in the early game

[turbid nova]

You need something else right away

[devout wasp]

i did not argue that Most Players Would Prefer x or y

that was someone else

[brave goblet]

you just pump planet sbut with only 2 discards you can't really make anything consistent

[turbid nova]

And 2 hands so you’re broke

[patent sail]

0 faceless triggers oh my god im just not drawing faces

[cloud sinew]

and with bad econ (2 hands, and only a $1 rocket) you cant really do that either

[knotty zodiac]

okay, then for you, would it be acceptable variance? would you prefer to reduce it?

[turbid nova]

Bc rocket also starts off small

[devout wasp]

furthermore, i take less issue with lucky cards than with tarots or jokers that have flat probabilities, because of volume of triggers available

[brave goblet]

blast off just starts out praying you get at least a nice jonker to one shot blinds or something to make money

it's either braindead or you're dead

[turbid nova]

2 hands, 2 empty slots, 2 discards

[patent sail]

blast off is weird because

why is it like that

like whats the funny

[devout wasp]

to just compare magician to wheel for a second, we have adding enhancements that can generate value for the entire rest of the game, vs a 75% chance to skip a pack

[pale wolf]

i lost

[versed sable]

finally someone who knows how garbage that challenge is
lmao

[turbid nova]

There’s no funny they just made it absurdly difficult

[patent sail]

dw no one had fun playing it

[turbid nova]

Jokerless is geniunely more fun

Straight spam yipee

[brave goblet]

jokerless is pure skill

[brave goblet]

REAL

[patent sail]

because somewhat consistent

[turbid nova]

No

[patent sail]

golden needle and blast off are luck

[turbid nova]

I got lucky with the ante 1 observatory

[brave goblet]

the only most degrading part about jokerless is how temperance, hex, wheel, and ankh seem to show up way more than usual

[cloud sinew]

i wouldn't say jokerless is pure skill, there are a lot of arguments for jokerless still being very luck based

[devout wasp]

and i think, if we were to take immolate and make it 50/50 between its two effects, the net effect is not to make it "only takeable when you need both" --- the net effect is instead for people not to ever take it again, because the value obtained from it is unpredictable and uncontrollable

[turbid nova]

So many saturn levels that the base score one shot everything

[versed sable]

jokerless is cool, at least

[turbid nova]

I just needed to pull straights

[versed sable]

blast off isn't

[turbid nova]

So I deleted 2-4 and aces

[broken swan]

Local thunk should SERIOUSLY consider adding some sort of effect on the screen in the last hand because this is the 7th good run I've lost to dusk

[patent sail]

jokerless still took me longer than blast off but thats only because i was playing 4oak on jonklerless

straights won that shit first try

[pale wolf]

jokerless was luck based until like 8 months ago or so and then it became 100% skill based, thats why i can beat it now

[cloud sinew]

for jokerless i would rather destroy A-J because of Plant meaning that any steel, glass, etc on your faces is just useless

[knotty zodiac]

okay, let's suppose we change immolate to have 1/2 chance to give you midas, and 1/2 chance to give you campfire. do you think ppl would still skip spectral packs?

[turbid nova]

Don’t fall for 4oak jokerless propaganda

[devout wasp]

why

[cloud sinew]

what

[turbid nova]

Plant is meaningless the base staight score one shot everytjing

[patent sail]

its okay that was long ago before my c+

i loev straights now

[turbid nova]

I got it to like lv 34

[devout wasp]

like i'm just saying i think it's a bad nerf, i don't understand why i have to justify an entire philosophical viewpoint on game design here

[versed sable]

sometimes*

[patent sail]

can banana kill itself already

[knotty zodiac]

because you're saying "what you get is uncontrollable, so no one will take it". both effects are very good, i think avoiding the pack because you dont get to pick which one would be a misplay

[turbid nova]

I’m saying for that specific run

[devout wasp]

"never take" was hyperbole

[cloud sinew]

for that specific run, sure, but generally i would destroy A-J because not all runs will be able to get to that point

[turbid nova]

Enhancements and cards legit did not matter

I had 3 blue seals which was nice too

[cloud sinew]

Water on golden needle is the most RNG element, and then with Jokerless it's whether or not you get Flint +/ Vessel

[patent sail]

i got vessel but it didnt matter

[split rivet]

okay I ended up doing a two pair run just let it slide shhhhh BUT
do i sell chicot here?

[cloud sinew]

a2 flint or wall will just kill you if you dont lock the fuck in

[patent sail]

it PERISHED

[cloud sinew]

do you need Mr. Bones

[versed sable]

could argue for selling bones

[patent sail]

why sell chicot

bones goes

[knotty zodiac]

if this is not interesting to you, by all means, we dont have to discuss. i thought it was.

[versed sable]

chicot is more consistent i'd think

[pale wolf]

i beated vv on mine jokerlesz :))

[patent sail]

sticker i assume

bones is white

[split rivet]

I kinda do want to get the gold sticker on Bonesy, yes

[cloud sinew]

then sell chicot, there's directors cut in shop so youre not super boss vulnerable atm

[devout wasp]

it's not particularly, mostly because my chief issue with it is just that it has no real advantage as a nerf vs just halving the values individually

[patent sail]

see vv is nothing

i got vv too

[split rivet]

thanks yea i can afford dc as well lol i didnt even notice

thank you

[pale wolf]

I could've beat gold stake vv on that run
which just speaks to the scoring limits im used to

[devout wasp]

it has the same effect on EV, but with waaaay more feels-bad moments that don't contribute positively to gameplay

[knotty zodiac]

i think halving the money is fine but halving the card destruction, especially if you have increased hand size, makes it less tense

[patent sail]

my cat came i to the room, meowed really loudly and left

[cloud sinew]

the challenges do feel like a nice change of pace if i still want to challenge myself but dont feel like playing GS

which is why I did CG

[brave goblet]

the white stake really makes things feel like a breeze

what's CG?

[earnest flame]

Try to think how you would feel when the immolate doesnt hit, would you be like hey, this is fun

[cloud sinew]

challenge gauntlet

[devout wasp]

well, i mean, i think a big issue with it is that the game presents one half of immolate as though it's a downside when it factually isn't in almost any case

[brave goblet]

Oh all 20 challenges no losses?

damn

[turbid nova]

Damn

Can you go in any order

[pale wolf]

i mean if i consider the worst scenario for any pack id never take them

[split rivet]

bonesy gotta go now 💀💀💀

[versed sable]

immolate; the spectral that gives you two upsides

[cloud sinew]

yeah, but i did mine in hardest -> easiest and then i did it in reverse order (#20 -> #1)

[turbid nova]

I guess the “risk” is it deleting a card you wanted

[brave goblet]

there's always the chance you draw all your good cards and then don't wanna risk an immolate lol

[turbid nova]

But still I’d say it’s worth it

[devout wasp]

that's why i said almost :3

[pale wolf]

c9<golden joker

[brave goblet]

no! not my unenhanced 9s!

[patent sail]

first pack evil plans or perishable narcissist (very hard question)

[brave goblet]

anything but that!

[cloud sinew]

TDL

[earnest flame]

When I was farming for rare drops in wow the hundreds of times I failed to get it were not exactly peak gameplay and when I did finally get it the short feel good moment really didnt make up for it

[versed sable]

the shop of all time

[devout wasp]

honestly, a decent percentage of the time, an immolate is actually better than your good cards

[turbid nova]

I guess bro

[pallid ferry]

why is it so evil…

[cloud sinew]

drawing all your good cards is not really a problem in a lot of runs because of how little pairs care about a lot of things

[patent sail]

i write my dark and twisted machinations in there

[brave goblet]

but I'm 4oakslopping ...

[cloud sinew]

how many blue seals do you have in deck

[versed sable]

carré is an evil hand

[ancient gyro]

that's all of them

[brave goblet]

just select the blue seals, immolate never hits those

it's tech

[turbid nova]

If I like a card I probably already death’d it

[earnest flame]

I'll give up my only blue seal for immolate any day of the week

[turbid nova]

So it’s all good

[patent sail]

nevermind i restarted THATS more like it

[turbid nova]

bleh

[hearty tusk]

carre? c'est pas possible!

[pallid ferry]

YES YES YES TAKE IT TAKE IT

[turbid nova]

Take the banner

[hearty tusk]

JACKIN IT????

[earnest flame]

Trading card is like one of the strongest jonklers because card removal is so valuable

[pallid ferry]

i looove trading card

[earnest flame]

I would give trading card 3$ if he asked

[hearty tusk]

and it give u 3$

[hollow moss]

Ya'll how rare are black holes again? Because I just opened 2 small planet card packs and found 2 black holes in a row

[patent sail]

0.3%

[turbid nova]

0.3%

[patent sail]

same as legendary jokers btw

[devout wasp]

0.3% chance per card in the pack

[pallid ferry]

i think they’re the same rarity as soul cards

so 0.3%

[hearty tusk]

damn

[cloud sinew]

slightly rarer if you have telescope

[hollow moss]

So my luck was completely insane here😭

[patent sail]

because they are just as powerful!!!!

[hollow moss]

Ante 2, after finding a shop 1 brainstorm

[devout wasp]

it winds up being about a 0.9%-ish chance on a regular celestial pack, and about 1.5%-ish on a jumbo or mega

[manic vault]

is there anything that synergizes well with half joker

[hollow moss]

My luck is wild this week

[patent sail]

bus!

green!

[devout wasp]

so two in a row in b2b celestials is something like 1 in 10k. not vanishingly unlikely, but certainly not frequent

[patent sail]

that couldve been 2 legendary jokers btw

[devout wasp]

the humble soul in celestial packs

[knotty zodiac]

so maybe the solution is to make the card do one thing... remove the money altogether and only destroy cards. if that's too good by itself, it could extract a fine too.

[cloud sinew]

[patent sail]

credit card in the standard pack

[earnest flame]

You know what would actually make space joker feel better but still keep it a chance joker, 100% proc chance but it upgrades a random hand, yes it would be so much worse but gameplay wise it would feel so much better

[manic vault]

thanks