💭・suggestions-old

[red bone]

Tutorial should probably show you the base chips x multi for each poker hand

Tutorial could also explain how Tarot cards and selling jokers work too (it took me a while to realize you had to click on them)

[obsidian apex]

Great points! I am working on adding that second suggestion right now, it's something everyone has struggled with. Especially tarot cards

[jagged finch]

I adore the "non standard" hand combos that can be unlocked later in the game, Im always trying weird combos in the hopes I find another secret hand

[red bone]

👀 What else are there other than ||five of a kind||

[jagged finch]

Ive only found one other one to be honest

[obsidian apex]

Theoretically there aren't many more poker hands you can make with 5 cards with repeats

[torpid gust]

I also found the ||Flush House|| which was cool, but by the time I could make it, It was actually just a worse hand to use than a four of a kind because of all the planet leveling that I had done.

[red bone]

I was hoping there'd be a joker that lets you use 6 cards haha

maybe didn't unlock it yet though 😛

[astral night]

There's a joker combo that I'm dying to get one of these days

||Knife joker that kills the card to the right to gain its sale value as multi, and the one that gives 3x multi if you purchased a joker||

[obsidian apex]

I REEEAALLY wanted to do that but... coding all these synergies is like cutting a head off of a hydra, it would open up so many things for me to hard code in and test. Maybe in the future!

[torpid gust]

I tried using the knife but I found it too slow and just worse than other options I put together

[jagged finch]

that would be sweet

[jagged finch]

I got the knife up to 104 but ya its definitely slowish

[torpid gust]

Also, it more or less nefs your total jokers

[red bone]

the best economy joker that helps scale to late game for me was the 2$ per discard one

[torpid gust]

unless you got it as a negative

[jagged finch]

I had that combo if you can believe it! i got up to ante 19

[astral night]

Nice!

[torpid gust]

then it could be good

[astral night]

3x was the first time I ever had my multi consistently outpace my chips

[torpid gust]

My ante 25 run, I was mostly using the one gets +1 per tarot, got it up to like +50, then I had like 6 jokers that had multi-multipliers ranging from 2 to 6

I can't remember what my multiplier was getting up to but it was 100k iirc

[astral night]

Yeah most of my runs end up supported by the +1 per tarot, the +1 for each time hand played, and anything else I can get with 10+ multi

[torpid gust]

I had 2 legendary jokers

[obsidian apex]

How???

[astral night]

Also, I think it's interesting reading the comments on steam about the economy, I feel like I'm having a completely different experience

I have enough money by the end of the first ante to start buying every voucher and a joker or 2 off interest and hand bonus alone

and then it's just a matter of time to start getting the interest and discount vouchers

[torpid gust]

technically I got 3 over the course of the run, but I sold one. Crystal ball.

[obsidian apex]

I guess interest mechanics are frowned upon for some reason but it really leans in to the risk/reward idea

[astral night]

I like it a lot, for what it's worth!

Incentivizes making do with one or two cheap jokers early until you cap

[obsidian apex]

That is absurd. I tried to make it rare enough that you can only get one every few runs if you hunt for it

[torpid gust]

the two I was running were|| the one that gets xMulti for each removed face card and the one that was X5 after discarding 23 times||

[red bone]

Btw for another suggestion, i'd like a x4 speed option lol (and x8)

[torpid gust]

This is a suggestion I'd really like for verification, When you have cards selected in hand, have it show which "hand" you have selected. Just to make it so you can double check that you did select out cards for a straight, etc

[astral night]

Raise your hand if you've made "flushes" with 4 hearts and 1 diamond

Game says "High Card!"

My soul leaves my body

[torpid gust]

I accidently selected out like 9,8,7,6,6 for a straight before

and clicked play too quickly

[astral night]

Worst misplay I've done I think was when I was mass discarding for the +10 joker and accidentally clicked play on the last one

was like a high card 4 on a boss 💀

[red bone]

is a good high card build possible?

[torpid gust]

I don't see how it could be

[red bone]

I guess you'd go stones maybe?

[astral night]

All face cards and stones, with synergies?

I don't usualy bother but I think there's enough support

[torpid gust]

you might be able to get ante 10

but I don't think you'd be able to get the multi high enough

[astral night]

Let's see

You'd need the ticket that stacks your most played for sure

[red bone]

what if there's a joker that's like

your high cards also trigger all other cards played

[astral night]

LOL yep that's me

well then you'd just always play high card

[red bone]

Yeah but it's like a little puzzle trying to not do a pair

[obsidian apex]

All cards always score?

[red bone]

and the base stats aren't that great either

[obsidian apex]

But if you had like a bunch of lucky cards or steel cards that would be a pretty cool Joker I think

[astral night]

The big challenge would be that it'd only be viable with the stacking hands joker, but there's no way you could stack it up to a decent level before having a build

I'll give it a try someday for the memes

[red bone]

Maybe!

[obsidian apex]

Omg I love it, because you don't need to hunt for hands anymore either if all cards score. That has synergies with all the discard jokers

[astral night]

So would it be something like all cards score, but only high card is possible?

[obsidian apex]

Well I like the idea that the poker hand itself needs to be just a high card. Like if you have a pair in there it wouldnt work

[astral night]

Joker of One Trade

[torpid gust]

Also, just putting this out there, the boss that reorders your jokers each hand offends me as a person with slight self diagnosed OCD

[red bone]

my favorite boss is the face down boss

[torpid gust]

I'm not sure if there is a joker for this, but imagine a Slot Machine joker where if you get a 3 of a kind, you get some kind of bonus. and 777 is a super bonus. It could make playing lower ranked cards more fun, rather than just focus on faces or aces.

[red bone]

I think there's a three of a kind gives +7 mult

but 777 would be funny

closests thing i saw to that was the 8 ball one

[torpid gust]

I almost always discard the face down cards unless I can deduce what the card is

[astral night]

Me offered that Joker in the very next shop after purging my last 7:

[torpid gust]

yeah, I know there is the 3 of a kind one

[astral night]

https://tenor.com/view/onf-mk-no-comment-gif-19688000

[obsidian apex]

I wont spoil but there are a couple jokers like that for low cards to pop off

[red bone]

https://tenor.com/view/spiral-hypnotic-shape-colors-gif-14476528

[torpid gust]

yeah that one is cool

[astral night]

Stop fibbing, I don't believe you

[obsidian apex]

I wasn't even thinking of that one haha

[red bone]

is there a special hand for going for the full fibonacci sequence lol

[astral night]

I got a spades royal flush the other day and nothing happened 😦

[obsidian apex]

Okay so I thought about that one a lot, even in poker a royal flush isnt really different right?

[astral night]

It's not

[obsidian apex]

Just has a different name because its a high straight flush

but might be fun to display 'royal' in there if you get it

[ivory turtle]

If you got 35+ jokers, it get's quite hard to look at them and order them. Maybe a large view button for the jokers might be useful?

[obsidian apex]

I think that is nature's way of saying you have gone too far

Are you doing that with an invisible joker?

[ivory turtle]

But, but, I needed those 🥺
My abstract joker wanted to get wild.

They were all negative jokers or what do you mean?

[obsidian apex]

Like how do you have so many negative jokers?

Are they coming from the shop?

[ivory turtle]

Yes, I had the x2 and x4 chance vouchers active and then I rerolled a bunch of times (I had like 500+ money at times and got up to 30 in each run, and with the tarrots even more).

Also the rerolls costed just $3

[red bone]

How much are you planning to charge for the game?

[obsidian apex]

$6.99 USD

[astral night]

Dang, that's a bargain

easiest 6.99 of my life

[obsidian apex]

mostly for the 'nice' jokes

[astral night]

haha

I would definitely be willing to pay 10+ for this

[red bone]

Yeah I think 10-15$ would totally work too

I was gonna say if it's 20+ i would be worried about replayability / variability per run

but at 7$ it's a steal

[obsidian apex]

I just wanted to make a fun game honestly so I'm cool with $7

[maiden otter]

give people a free demo to get them addicted and then charge 100$ for it

[red bone]

I'm selling my legendary joker i unpacked for 78$

[obsidian apex]

Don't give me any ideas

$5 Polychrome guarantee booster packs at Ante 9 shop

[astral night]

LMAO

[ivory turtle]

What about adding the effect from the black deck as a voucher? +1 joker -1 discard, -1 hand?
It feels like playing the black deck is a must in higher antes. It would be interessting to try other decks, but then have the ability to also increase the joker count. Or is it already in the game?

[obsidian apex]

No that is the only way aside from negatives. I like that it is much harder early game with that deck, I think it's balanced so its bad for new players and good for more experienced ones

But really I don't necessarily think it's that much better than some other ones. You can get hands in the billions with 5 jokers (it was 5 by default up until release on sunday)

There is also another absurd deck I don't know if anyone has unlocked yet. It is better than the black deck

[maiden otter]

this last sentence

i wish i didn't hear it

[ivory turtle]

Oh no, now I want to grind again...

I already broke my sleep schedule playing a run

[obsidian apex]

lmao

[maiden otter]

can you at least point us in the direction we need to go to unlock it?

[obsidian apex]

Well they all have the same unlock conditions

In your high scores, what is your collection at?

[maiden otter]

so we need to reach ante 100

68%

oh, so the completion % of your collection unlocks decks?

i thought it was ante's

[obsidian apex]

Yeah that is how you unlock the decks!

[maiden otter]

good to know

[frozen kestrel]

Suggestion/I don't know how feasible it is, as a non-game developer: know a lot of casual gamers and non-computer people who would probably love this game, but a few that I've talked to already don't want to go through the hassle of downloading Steam to access it. Any plans for a non-steam self-contained release?

[obsidian apex]

It's possible for me to do an itch.io release but that would only be for stable builds, I'll definitely consider it though!

Because it's written in Lua this thing could run on anything, I have thought about doing a Google play app release after the steam release too if all goes well

[ivory turtle]

Is there a way to up the round speed above 2x? Would greatly improve my workflow xD

[dry plaza]

Wait is there a way to up the round speed above 1x?

[ivory turtle]

options game speed

[dry plaza]

Oh duh ok thats good to know

[ivory turtle]

How to check which jokers you played the most?

[dry plaza]

There should be a welcome channel separate from general

[fierce shard]

perhaps not feasible but cloud saves would be good so i can pick up where i left off on my steam deck

[dry plaza]

Shop refreshes gotta increase

[lyric lance]

(Copying this feedback from a reddit DM I sent)
I'd love to see a 4 color deck option.
I appreciate the 2x speed modifier but I think there are some sets of animations that could go a little faster. I got to Ante 9 in my last run at about 1 hour 5mins, anything to make the total length of a run faster only stands to make things better. Even if this is perhaps something like 'Game runs at 2x speed, but hold spacebar to insta-fast forward to banking of chips/next deal'
The gentle swirling of the background make me a little motionsick, (I might need to play with the available motion/shake settings.)
The music loop is a little short/repetitive currently.
If I press Rank it of course sorts by rank. It'd be cool if I when clicked again, it moves any Aces from the high end to the low end to remind me I can play a wheel.
Secret Hand Types are very fun/cool 🙂
I've had 1 Crash to desktop, and 1 crash that told me an error report was submitted, but I was able to continue my game from the shop of that turn even when it crashed which is great.
On game over, it offers me the choice to continue back to the turn I lost my prior run, which seems like a bug.

[dry plaza]

Oh those are a bunch of good points, i thought the continue from game over or win was a feature but not a final one

[scenic kernel]

I think that if you have an active run, the "continue" button should be on the main menu, besides the "play" button. at the moment you can forget that you have an active run (or new players might miss the option to continue runs altogether)

[obsidian apex]

I think I need to address a pretty core issue with one of the broken strategies right now. I want to start off by saying I love breaking runs in other games, so I really want to keep that, but I think most of the pro gamers here that have been getting a million negative jokers would agree the core loop of sitting in the shop and rerolling for hours isn't a fun experience, especially when I believe those insane scores are actually totally possible with only 6 jokers. Is that a fair statement?
@maiden otter @ivory turtle @cyan isle

[astral night]

The refresh cost makes total sense to either scale up per shop or to be limited in quantity I’d say

[dry plaza]

I think it’d probably be fair to start at 1 or 2 coins per and just increase by 1 or more every click

[jagged finch]

maybe a mechanic of refreshes getting progressively more expensive each time but resetting between rounds?

[astral night]

Another implementation I’ve seen is increasing the cost of goods per reroll

[obsidian apex]

I do have a potential solution but before I implement it I wanted to see if others agreed this is a problem. Because it's a strat you can force every time

[astral night]

I agree it’s a problem, it’s basically an information hazard every shop knowing that I should spend all my spare cash rerolling to find the perfect build even if I don’t want to

[ivory turtle]

Well sorting the jokers after a shuffle boss would be much easier, if I couldn't have 77 jokers 🤣
I think going up to double the amount of jokers with negative sounds reasonable, though then they should be more frequent then, as otherwise I am gonna reroll much much more to find the ones which fit my deck.
The abstract joker will be nerfed then. Though I think setting a max limit, makes sense, many of my jokers were there just for the abstract ones, but otherwise didn't really contribute to my deck at all.

If they get nerfed, then I need to scout for a better strategy.

[obsidian apex]

I think ultimately that would be more fun though! Maybe annoying immediately but in the long run

[ivory turtle]

Maybe add a deck where the max negative cap is removed or something

[obsidian apex]

So here's what I'll propose as a change:

1. Nerf Temperance to be $50 max
2. Limit number of rerolls per shop to 10. That way it shouldn't impact any of the other strategies
3. Add a button to reset # of rerolls in current shop for 50% of your money

Otherwise you may be able to just sit on infinite money without even being able to spend it

[dry plaza]

Does temperance change what you get if you buy a sale voucher?

[ivory turtle]

Infinite money? The shoe joker loves infinite money

[lyric lance]

Is the total value of your wallet balance capped?

[obsidian apex]

It is not

But as a 'number go up' game I like that you can go buck wild

[ivory turtle]

Currently I have about $700 so I get +70 mult from the shoe joker (unless its already fixed). Temperance is the major income for this joker.
With the cap tempereance would give you +5 or with the fixed card +10 mult. I think this sounds reasonable

[obsidian apex]

I can't remember, I think it does though

@ivory turtle you think those changes would stop that negative strategy from being viable?

[ivory turtle]

I think the biggest blocker to gain more negatives is the 10 time reroll. So growing the joker count will be much slower. And when I rerolled, I went from 220 down to 100 every time, with 3$ per reroll, thats 40 rerolls, if I didn't buy anything. On average I think I went down from $150.
...
I am not quite sure, it may need some testing to see if it would stop this strategy.

[obsidian apex]

Well one other thing I guess I would change too is that hone and glow up are not supposed to make negatives more frequent and they do, so they would be 5X less common with glow up

Which means instead of pulling 70 negative in a run if I made just that one change you'd pull 14

[ivory turtle]

When going down from 220 at least I got 3 or 4 negatives or so if I remember correctly. That's one every ten rerolls.
Though all numbers without warranty.
Last night was quite a blur xD

[tender comet]

For windowed mode, is there any chance you could make it so that the sound is only on when the window is in focus, and no sound when it's in the background?

[lyric lance]

Could Mult be changed to Multi in general? my brain always breaks down Multiplier to Multi-plier not Mult-iplier, unless it's been done this way for a specific reason I haven't comprehended?

[obsidian apex]

Is there precedent in other games for this? I like Mult because it's pronunciation is unambiguous and I think everyone knows what it means

[lyric lance]

I've never seen Mult used before to mean multiplier, I brought it up because it looked out of place for that reason, but I'd be happy to be told by others in the community that my perception is the odd one

[tender comet]

I like mult, for what it's worth

[obsidian apex]

Thanks for all of this! I am trying to figure out something to do for the card colours to make them easier to differentiate

[wanton spade]

For the Braided Deck, can we choose which hand gets the buff instead of having to take the most common hand? I don't want to play the deck because it encourages me to just do the same thing I did last run

[jagged finch]

I really like this suggestion, I feel the same

[tender comet]

for colour blindness, instead of changing the colour of the elements on the card, you could add a border or something in rgby? might be ugly but might be a option is it helps those people (i'm not sure if it would or not since im not colourblind)

[obsidian apex]

The general idea for making things colourblind friendly is that if you can just show a lot of contrast in value (black and white) it should be colourblind friendly. So if you convert everything to greyscale, it should still read. The card pips all do so I know I am in the clear there!

Where you run into trouble is like blue directly on red, or any pure colour on any other pure colour, or dark colours on black, light colours on white, etc. I have really really tried to avoid that so I should be in the clear I think

But if there are any colourblind people playing the game I'd love to know if you aren't able to see some important things clearly! Send me a DM or reply to me if that's true

[cyan isle]

what if youre only able to get negative enchancement on the wheel of fortune, that would even nerf de wheel of fortune a bit

and the ring master becomes a voucher so you still have reason to keep rerolling

or something

[obsidian apex]

I really like the dopamine when the negative shows up in the shop the first time. Something anyone can stumble on in any run if they're lucky

[cyan isle]

makes sense

[obsidian apex]

I really think the biggest problem is Hone and Glow up though

[cyan isle]

i guess just increasing the reroll price makes a lot of sense then

i dont think rerolling is boring, i was having fun in my run

[obsidian apex]

I will start by changing the negative spawn rate to not be affected by Hone and Glow up, and nerf Temperence. Then we can see if that makes it better by itself because they will be 5X less frequent

[cyan isle]

i didnt have temperance in my crazy run so I couldnt reroll like sewbacca, at ante 29 I had 21 jokers and he had 71... crazy

so it might help

[obsidian apex]

You used hone and glow up though right?

[cyan isle]

yeah

[obsidian apex]

I think even just those changes should fix it then

[cyan isle]

but as you said, getting crazy highscores is totatlly possible with few jokers, i had 8 when I got my first billion chips

[obsidian apex]

I think those runs are the most fun

[cyan isle]

but it was a crazy synergy

[obsidian apex]

Plus there are a lot of synergies that can do that

[maiden otter]

i don't actually know if the reroll changes are good, we really made our economy top tier so that we were able to get this much money in the first place, your game economy reminds me a lot of riot game's teamfight tactics which i used to play a lot, the intrest there is also very important and you also get augments which are just like jokers which can for example increase your intrest cap or just straight up give you money, and in teamfight tactics it's completely balanced, i don't know if capping the rerolls is a good thing but the temperance cap is for sure a good thing

maybe removing some economy-focused cards from the negative joker pool

i just think that the rerolls and economy systems themself are in a good position, just some cards can break it

i think the solution we took to make our economy was still one of the best possible, that's why we got so many rerolls

[red bone]

Lowkey I like the idea of having rerolls be cheaper early on

Right now I barely reroll at the start of the game, and then you spam rerolls near the end of the game

But rerolls are more fun earlier I think since that's when you are trying to "find a build", but they are way too expensive to use

a scaling system per shop like (1-> 3 -> 5 -> 7, etc) would help with that

[maiden otter]

maybe

[maiden otter]

we were earning 150$ per round easily even though we could've earned like 300$

without temperance

[lyric lance]

Just looked and didn't find any way to "Delete Game Save Data" in setting/options, would be a nice option to have for those that might want it.

[obsidian apex]

I have a bit of an 'eat your vegetables' design philosophy on the shop. Early on, you can waste money on rerolls but it's much better if you try and build a run with what you are given. It is possible to win a few rounds even with some bad shop luck and it makes it more fun in the long run because it makes you experience more new interesting things

[lyric lance]

On that note will game saves be lost when transitioning to 1.0?

[obsidian apex]

Yes, maybe I'll make an import save feature for the beta testers

[red bone]

it's not a bad philosophy, but I also think 2 jokers to choose from is very little vegetables to choose from lol, especially when some of them just don't do anything - glass card joker, stone card joker, when you don't have any enhancements yet

coming from most deckbuilders having choose 3s lol

[maiden otter]

we made all cards face cards, used sock and buskin to trigger it all twice, and we had 1 buisness card which evolved into like 5 buisness cards because we risked a lot by getting a ring master to try and find more of stone jokers to upgrade our stone cards, though we were able to find many buisness cards cause they are just way too common, we also had satelitte and 2 mime's which triggered gold cards which we also had a lot of. But most rounds we only played 1 hand to save time because waiting for all the cards to trigger so many times was just too long, i think you should also add a higher game speed for late game because of that, and even though we played only 1 hand per round we still got 150$ from just these cards

[obsidian apex]

Anyone unlock the 'beat the game in 15 rounds' joker yet?

[maiden otter]

no, i think i'll try it today

[lyric lance]

I'm looking to start a fresh save at 1.0 so YouTube can see the full journey through all the unlocks etc so as long as there's a way to get a fresh save I'll be happy 🙂

[obsidian apex]

I won't be able to do that now but I can show you!

You can do it yourself

[lyric lance]

just in game files?

Some Discord Channel Recommendations: High Scores/Screen Shots, Seed Share, Off Topic, Videos/Streams

[dry plaza]

It’d be cool to have an A, B, C save file

[placid flame]

Thoughts on Rerolls
I saw some of the thoughts above, and I'll share my perspective. Most games like this have some feature that would be "broken" if they could be spammed. Trashing cards in Slay the Spire, or Charms in Wildfrost. Rerolls are like that here.

I don't consider my money part of my score. (It's not even memorialized at the end!) It's just a tool to survive. If I need to use a hundred rerolls to survive the round, I will. I feel they have to increase logarithmically, so the choice to use them gets tougher and tougher. "Is it worth half my money for one more reroll?" is tense and nice.

Side note: I feel guilty using a lot of rerolls. Feels "cheap" to me, like an exploit that the price isn't increasing. I read the suggestion to limit to 10. I think all that would do is remove my guilt.

Great game, by the way.

[wanton spade]

I do like how the interest mechanic acts as positive reinforcement to prevent players from re-rolling a bunch, because doing so affects your payout for a while while you rebuild

[tender comet]

could also consider a +1$ mechanic for each reroll, which is reset when you leave the shop? so first reroll is $x, then second reroll is $x+1, $x+2 etc.

[lyric lance]

Possibly an option to freeze a shop item so it's still there after the next round?

[thorn tulip]

when starting a new run, would be nice if the game could remember my previous deck

[mossy trellis]

I would like a Deck where you don't get the Small Blind, but get +1 to Hand and Discard for not having that safety net.

[tender comet]

could have special items which unlock after you reach 20 ante for the first time and are available for new runs, one item at a time, like sunglasses or visors or a distracting dress or heavy gold signet rings... just like poker pros... e.g. visor grants "start with two extra aces up your sleeve (in your deck)" and mirrored sunglasses "saves you from your first loss" like mr bones or something!

[thorn tulip]

would be nice if polychrome would apply after the actual effect of the card

[steady narwhal]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but since the game is based around poker and cards, there could be a 'hold' mechanic for the shop. Just adding a little extra feel to it

[ivory turtle]

I really would like a tick to be unlockable, which comments my gameplay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCvEU57VEIc
xD

[dusty axle]

Hope ya had a good canoe trip 🛶
After a ton of runs mainly all I want is new difficulty.
Just a flat modifier, every blind requires % more chips to beat, even the early ones.
Not interested in Endless at all it's not my thing.
And a way to know total number of runs you've had, if that's not in the game somewhere already.

[ivory turtle]

Multiple named saves would be nice

[obsidian apex]

Thank you! And thanks for all the suggestions everyone. I would love to do more to make the game replayable at higher hours - so great suggestion.
A few ideas for this:

1. Better balance - there shouldn't be any 1 go to strategy that automatically wins the game. So nerfing a strat to make the other strategies more relevant would mean more variety in play
2. Nerfing infinite strats - Like printing free planet cards, rerolling the shop forever, etc. These things might be fun to break the run once but it makes high scores more a test of patience than skill
3. Modifiers - which is I think what you are talking about. Something like a newgame plus (more jokers but faster Ante scaling?)
4. Collectibles - badges for each deck you beat the game with, for each joker you beat the game with, stuff like that
5. This one is not in the immediate future but I set up seeds specifically for a daily challenge run with leaderboard. So you are assigned a deck, maybe an unsellable joker, and a seed and your run score is uploaded to the leaderboard

[ivory turtle]

About nerfing, I don't know if preventing this is the way to go. I mean if people like to grind? Also a grind strat would be a good benchmark for a skillfull strat.

[obsidian apex]

Well if I think about the infinite planet card strat I wonder, because it's cool to find it one time but I personally don't enjoy having a strategy that I can just keep doing forever to get the highest possible score. I would prefer to have some other clever broken synergy to get to that insane score without sinking dozens of hours into a single run if possible

I know there are some people with a grindset in this discord though:

[ivory turtle]

Oh nice analytics. So you actually gather this data?
I also don't know the planet strat, just returned to the game today

[obsidian apex]

You can just create planet cards forever over and over. Like you don't have to play any cards or anything there is just a joker combo that regenerates them

so you would basically click 'use' until the heat death of the universe

[ivory turtle]

Oh interesting

[red bone]

that's from steam!

[obsidian apex]

Yes sorry! From steam stats for the playtest

[cyan isle]

me there

[placid flame]

Yeah normally I’d hold it against the game if I knew that. As mark rosewater says, people will do the powerful thing even if it’s unfun, then will think your game sucks. You want to catch and repair those. My opinion.

[thorn tulip]

a "don't be stupid" symbol that appears every time you are about to do something stupid like playing a disabled hand type, turning cards into clubs when the boss disables clubs and stuff like that

[fading cedar]

Eh, maybe a steady, flat background instead of the Giygas like swirling?

Or the option to toggle?

Like some sort of Poker Table background?

[ivory turtle]

I would believe I am in this bucket and most of the time I didn't grind. The first 10 hours or so I tried getting to ante ten.
I would not read too much into that other than, your game is f****** addictive... or fun depending on your angle

[ivory turtle]

Like the nervous tick from the vid I posted xD

[ivory turtle]

I realize since this is a more productive channel, memes and such are probably inapropriate due to cluttering the channel. Next time I'll post that in general. I just found the idea of a nervous tick sitting around and telling me in a high pitch noise that I have bad cards really funny.

[mossy trellis]

I would like to suggest for players like me who want to get the maximum cash with little hands used to add a bonus if we were able to complete the blind in the very first hand.

[obsidian apex]

Thank you for the suggestions everyone! If I don't respond to your specific one here don't worry - I have a kanban with a bunch of ideas from here in it.

[eager vector]

Blanket idea, along with stone card nerfs (you had mentioned) a couple new cards to amass chips or ways to scale the chip making cards would be nice. The extra discards becoming chips is very nice but it caps out unless you get negative cards for +2 discard which is just unlikely (I’ve tried). Maybe add a card with set conditions to gain more discards (but it disables them maybe? So you’re locked in cant just spam discards) and this way you could scale it.

[red bone]

okay weirder

joker:

all "2" digits on your jokers are now "3"

realistically not possible to implement but funny to think about

[obsidian apex]

Oh like 2x all becomes 3x, +20 becomes 30, that kind of thing?

[red bone]

yep

[obsidian apex]

If this thing makes enough money that I can do it full time you all are getting a bloated free Joker dlc with like 60 more cards. That one included

[lyric lance]

A heap of secret joker unlocks, stuff like
That's Not Supposed To Happen: Unlocks when you Finish a boss blind by playing 75432.
In Honour Of a Legend: Finish a blind by playing Ten Deuce
That's a Wheely Good Hand: Finish a blind by playing a Wheel.
The Cards Have Eyes: Defeat a Blind playing only Ducks, Crabs and Snowmen

Secret Boss Blinds:
High Royal Blind: forced to fight them if you ever remove 4 kings and 4 queens during a run
The Roulette Wheel Blind: has a 0.01% chance to be forced to fight you each time you roll the shop.
Big Jack Blind: chance to spawn them for a fight if you defeat a blind with AK/AQ/AJ/AT, (All Broadway cards are disabled)
The Bloat Blind: spawns to fight you if your deck ever reaches >100 cards

[red bone]

X3 multi if you have fewer than 5 coins

just a way to have a different winning economy

[cyan crown]

Will there ever be planet cards for the “secret hands”? That seems like an unlock

[ivory turtle]

On new run, select last selected deck automatically

[jagged finch]

very good call

[tender comet]

I can see this game making you a bajillionaire 💪

[cyan reef]

As a non english speaker, could be cool to have in the pause menu all the poker hands that we could play

could be useful even for poker beginner

[obsidian apex]

It is in the run info section, under poker hands! I added that to the new tutorial

[cyan reef]

oh indeed ! i didnt notice or i forgot after tutorial

[obsidian apex]

No worries, the updated tutorial went up today so you likely wouldn't have seen it. That is why I added it to the tutorial I think others had the same issue finding it

[fading cedar]

As a non professional poker player, "Wheel"? "Ducks, grabs Snowmen?". Broadway cards?

[lyric lance]

A Wheel is a Straight made with A-2-3-4-5.
Ducks are 2s aka Deuces. Because a 2 looks very vaugely like a duck. Deuce is used to prevent confusion when saying stuff like I have two twos.
Crabs are 3s aka Treys. because a 3 on its side looks like it's trying to pincer you from each side. They is used to prevent confusion like above.
Snowmen at 8s, because it's a small circle on a big circle.
Ducks, Crabs and Snowmen are all 'things' that have eyes that aren't just faces like jack/queen/king.
Broadway is a straight. T-J-Q-K-A. If you hold TJ and the flop is QA6, you have a draw to broadway.

[ivory turtle]

copy paste seed, add restart run with same seed and same deck option.

[mint token]

At the end of the game when we get the unlock splash screens for cards and vouchers, can we please have the ability to hiover over the card toi see what it does - currently I have to remember the icon and go looking for it

[obsidian apex]

I did that intentionally so you would need to find it in game to learn what it does, maybe that is something I should change though. Anyone else think we should change that?

[mint token]

The issue is that when I move the mouse over to the red ! cards I've had more than one occasion when I've accidentally moused over other red ! in the same screen and dismissed the icon before I read the card - maybe a click to acknowledge rather than a hover would fix that. You probably dont want a million UI options but maybe that could be a user pref. idk

[flint rose]

I think I've seen a game that doesn't remove the ! until you close the menu/change the page after mousing over it, to help prevent that

[mint token]

yeh or click it (Genshin Impact does that)

[obsidian apex]

I think it's a bit of a balance as well, it's easier for people to just drag their mouse over a bunch of jokers if they want to get rid of them instead of having to click each one

I hated doing that in Risk of Rain

Those ! notifications are all just for new discoveries, so they are things you have already purchased and used in game. New unlocks do not show up in your collection until you use them in game

[fading cedar]

Maybe a way to /force/ a joker into your hand for reduced effect?

[obsidian apex]

What do you mean? Like you get to pick it?

[fading cedar]

Like, your joker hand is full, you want to use Judgement. Let it put it in there but its effects are severely reduced.

or some other penalty

like lowered hand size or discards or played hands or money earned.

[thorn tulip]

how about a tarot card that gives a joker slot for one round

[fading cedar]

Like Perkeo, since most people will have their slots full and if they get that Joker, it's pretty much a dead card in the hand.

[obsidian apex]

I dunno I think people are sleeping on Perkeo, especially for the 'win with 4 or fewer jokers' unlock. Generate infinite Death cards, hanged man cards, steel cards with steel joker, I think it has huge synergy potential even with that caveat

[tender comet]

Yeah I didn’t understand perkeo at all at first but it’s super powerful when you have some combo that lets you cycle tarot cards.

Also you know the tarot where you select three cards and they all become copies of the rightmost? Even though I knew you could rearrange your jokers and your hand I totally didn’t realise you could do this in the tarot shop and thought it was a limitation of the tarot card to make it more awkward to clone ace/face cards. Once I figured that out it becomes insane, just abuse perkeo to clone a multi ace a dozen+ times!

[mint token]

@obsidian apex Have you considered adding a replay or a score breakdown option? There's been a few times when I've played a hand and it didn't score as I expected. Because I'm not recording I can't go back and see how the score was calculated. I think this would be invaluable especially when tying to understand mechanics and synergies. Readers, pls thumbs up if you agree 😉

[obsidian apex]

New idea for bonus to skipping straight to boss blind:
Equality card
Balances Chips and Mult
(So 100x6000 would become 3050x3050 for example)

My thoughts are that it would be better than the gold seal card

[mossy trellis]

OH YEAH!! I love it!

[red bone]

Its a great card but my thoughts are still the same for it being a "temp boost"

skipping long term power and risking a loss to gain power for one round doesn't feel like it makes sense tactically

[thorn tulip]

its easier to scale multiplier stuff so it might actually be good late game

(if it works after jokers ofc)

[red bone]

Late game I agree, but I think it should be cooler early game as a choice

that's when risk vs reward matters more

[obsidian apex]

Early game I was thinking usually chips are much higher than mult so it would probably help until mid rounds too

And then yes late game mult scales way faster so it's a way to get chips up there too

[obsidian apex]

I think that would be a ton of work at this point, but I did add 0.5 speed for this reason, so you can slowly trigger a hand and think about each popup on screen. Not ideal but there's 1 of me and I have a ton of features and fixes on my list. If many people think this would be something they want to better understand their hands I can add it to the list though!

[mint token]

ive started using geforce experience overlay to record plays, its a lower priority than other things on your to do list. I'm a developer myself so I know how quickly you get overwhelmed with feature requests, enhancements and bug reports.

[lyric lance]

What about a "replay the last played hand" button perhaps

[mint token]

bah! I just hit the round score exactly and nothing happened! should maybe get a bonus $ or 2 for that!!

[tender comet]

I think that’s a cool idea! You could also have a boss which has a penalty for overkill, like don’t go over 2x the ante or you lose half your money! Would give OP decks something to think about

[lyric lance]

A joker that lets you submit straights and flushes of more than 5 cards. I wanna score an 8 card straight 7-A

[mint token]

A way to copy the seed into paste buffer from the game over/win screen and paste it into seeded run screen so it's easier to share seeds in the community. Perhaps a rerun button on the game over screen as well?

[steady narwhal]

Just chatting about the idea of cursed jokers or vouchers, something that is a double edged sword like +$5 at the end of each blind but -5 mult. / x2 mult -100 chips. Something that could be great but comes with a penalty.

[grand drum]

If you are talking about actual card (not Joker), you won’t get such a high mult on it (the same way Steel cards are triggered) and it would only result in some Mult (in which case you would be better with doing Steel anyway)

[obsidian apex]

That's true, that could be an issue. Was then thinking maybe it could be a new edition effect for jokers instead?

[wanton spade]

What if there was a ✨Wheel of Rewards✨ you spin when you skip Blinds? It would let you vary the strength of the rewards (for example, you could make one of the rewards be +1 Joker Slot without breaking the game open) and would allow you to make a lesser Wheel for when a player skips only one Blind to give players a reason to do so

[red bone]

^ i love this idea

[obsidian apex]

I think that idea could solve the problem I was worried about and be enticing enough to make people skip the blinds

I'd have to call it something else though, maybe 'luck of the draw' or something poker related

So as not to confuse people with the Wheel of Fortune

[wanton spade]

All-In Reward?

But yeah, I think part of a cool risk/reward system is randomized rewards (like in Spirelikes where the reward for fighting harder enemies is a random relic). It's also just more fun this way lol

[obsidian apex]

Plays into the slot machine pog factor I'm into it. Thanks for the suggestion! I'll explore it, that likely will take quite some time to implement though so you won't see it immediately if I do go that route

[wanton spade]

Absolutely!

[red bone]

a literal slot machine theme could work lol

roulette is not bad either

[obsidian apex]

Ideas for payouts so far (all free):
Negative Joker
Gold Seal
Potentailly a 'Equilibrium' joker
$20
$100
Random Voucher
Rare Joker

[wanton spade]

I would love for the first one to make one of your jokers Negative instead of making a new one

[steady narwhal]

Roulette could be interesting, but limit it to card choices in stead of numbers: you can pick- colour, suit, face, number, or specific card.

Use the cash as the bet, higher brackets of cash used- e.g: 0-5,6-10etc. Higher odds of a better joker or voucher etc.

You can just use the prexisiting probability modifier and scale it accordingly as well

[mossy trellis]

Dude, you should have one more Joker be the supreme Clown for unlocking all five legends themselves.

[latent lance]

I just thought of a slot machine with for example 2 columns, that would change your deck cards. Every column would have their own possible outcome, and then it would combine the outcomes from columns. For example u roll in first column "3", in second u roll "Steel". That would add steel to 3 selected cards.
Some examples:
2 Hearts - change 2 cards into hearts
3 remove - remove 3 cards from deck
1 Mult - upgrades 1 cards mult by some number
4 Duplicate - adds 4 selected cards to deck
2 Stone - change 2 cards to stone

U could call it Tarot Printer

Also idea for new enhancment - Rewind Card - procs 2 times

[obsidian apex]

Caught the rest of the stream, I like the idea for sure. Content wise I think I can start adding suggestions like this and the random bonus for skipping the lower blinds once the game is in early access, at this moment I just want to make sure the game is bug free for 99% of people

[lyric lance]

A random button for deck selection

[static niche]

Make Director's cut be more obvious on how to use, I feel like I always forget it

Also, make skip buttons have confirmation? I sometimes press it by accident, and I've seen people do so too

I think @lyric lance did so too at his last video lol

[lyric lance]

I've got the muscle memory in the right place for it now 🙂

[mossy trellis]

Need a Joker for adding multiplier for each time you play the same hand in a row...

[wanton spade]

Supernova is similar but it doesn't require a streak, and that card is already pretty limiting for the player

[mossy trellis]

Supernova is over the course of the run, the suggestion would be reset once the streak is over. AH!!! STREAK JOKER

[static niche]

Just noticed where the dir's cut button is. Top left feels unintuitive. Could it be moved to the right of the boss blind, or at the very least in the bottom row? This would feel more intuitive, as like 95% of the interactions (everything apart from the jokers) are in the bottom half of the screen.

We could use a joker that has a chance to upgrade currently held jokers' rarities (foil etc.). Not sure if that's in the game, haven't come across it. Could help having more consistent runs that are less luck-dependent.

[obsidian apex]

There are a couple things that do something like that in the game

[static niche]

Or maybe an event of sorts that does the same thing. Wheel of fortune is too rare

[static niche]

I only know about wheel, so far. I would love seeing that effect as a reward for skipping blinds.

(As long as it doesn't make that 15 round unlock too cheesable lol)

[static niche]

I feel like boss mechanics interacting with jokers should start at the beginning of battle, and not when selecting a blind. (i.e. After planetarium/crystal ball)

||(I won't comment on my pressumably getting a x3 multiplier joker lost by the Act 10 blind, thus losing my run)||

Also, the ||legendary|| joker that ||upgrades its multiplier on face card destruction works with hanged man, but not with death.|| Is that intended?

Because the ||Destroy|| keyword doesn't show anywhere else in the game ||at least not regarding hand cards and not jokers (Sac. Dagger)||

[visual stirrup]

I would imagine that's intended? Because the properties are ||transmutative instead of destructive||, but I could be wrong, only dev can say for sure

[static niche]

I get why it happened, and I feel that's the way it should happen too. However, my problem lies more with the consistency of keywords. ||Removing, isn't destroying||

[mint token]

can we have a #seed-exchange channel? I've found a couple of good ones for erratic decks...

[mint token]

Also, the letter O and the digit 0 look identical in your game font...

[obsidian apex]

I'll change the phrasing to say 'destroy' on the hanged man card to avoid confusion

[obsidian apex]

I have a task in my backlog about this - I'll make it so they can be interchangeable in a seed

[static niche]

(Or just do the 0 with a line inbetween if you can adjust the font, sounds easier)

[obsidian apex]

The font is the only visual asset I didn't make so unfortunately no it wouldn't be easier for me to do it that way - maybe I'll just omit both from generated seeds

There will still be essentially unlimited seed combos that way!

[static niche]

Fair. Binding of isaac has them be interchangeable for reference, but yeah, 2 possible digits less won't be that much of a problem

[cyan isle]

iread that as sex-change channel, am i dyslexic

[wanton spade]

🏳️‍⚧️

[thorn tulip]

i feel like the shop should start at 3 jokers considering rerolls basically dont exist until ante 3 or 4

[lyric lance]

It's nice seeing screenshots of people win screens, but it'd be really cool if there was a button on the win/loss screen that you could click to download an image with the score/joker pool/voucher pool/deck composition to see what got you to the win

[mint token]

I don't want to make the win/loss screen even more cluttered with a load more buttons but along with Gothic's idea, I'd love a "retry" feature and a way to see more in depth stats analysis for the run (like a blind by blind look at what you played/scored)

[grand drum]

saw the tutorial discussion in #📜・bugs-old and decided to add something that was confusing to me at the start - better explanations for the Gold seal cards (or other sweets introduced later) from rushing to the boss.

[lyric lance]

Could wheel of fortune be programmed to have a pity timer within a run. 1/5 chance unless you've missed 4 in a row, then it's a guarantee.

[obsidian apex]

No 🙂

That's stats, baby

[lyric lance]

Really fast wheel of fortune animation to see if you get the correct slice of the % pie rather than 'Nope'

[mint token]

@lyric lance why are you messing about with animations instead of making more Balatro videos.... Come on man, chop chop! 😉

[mossy trellis]

We need a deck that start you with the Ceremonial Dagger and three random Planet/Tarot cards and you can only keep the dagger as the only Joker!!!

[lyric lance]

Negative/Inverted/Upside Down Tarot, Each with some tricky/niche unlock requirement, Ablilites are hidden until the card is played once.
Neg-Fool: Play your first hand in a round against the Boss Blind, 1 in 2 chance to defeat the blind instantly, 1 in 2 chance to encounter an Ante+1 Boss Blind immediately after the Boss Blind is Defeated
Neg-Magician: 1 in 2 Chance to enhance 2 cards to lucky cards, 1 in 2 Chance to enhance 2 cards into Unlucky Cards [Unlucky Cards: Has no Rank or Suit, -5 Mult if this card stays in hand.
Neg-High Priestess: 1 in 2 Chance to create a copy of a random joker (Must have room) 1 in 2 chance to destroy a random joker.
Neg-Empress: 1 in 2 chance to enhance 2 selected cards into Mult+ Cards [Mult+ +7 Mult] 1 in 2 chance to enhance 2 selected cards into Unlucky Cards.
Neg-The Emperor: Activates 3 random Tarot or Planet cards. Targets of Tarot cards are selected randomly.
Neg-Hierophant : 1 in 2 Chance to enhance 2 cards to Bonus+ cards [+60 Cips], 1 in 2 Chance to enhance 2 cards into Unlucky Cards [Unlucky Cards: Has no Rank or Suit, -5 Mult if this card stays in hand.]
Neg-The Lovers : 1 in 2 chance to enhance a card into a Wild+ card, 1 in 2 chance to convert a card into Unlucky Cards. [Wild+ Can be used as any rank or suit. 1 in 10 chance to revert to a Wild Card when played]
Neg-Chariot: 1 in 3 chance to enhance 1 card into a Steel+ Card, 2 in 3 chance to enhance 1 card into an Unlucky Card. [Steel+ 3x Mult if used in XYZ hand]
Neg-Hermit: 1 in 2 chance to triple your money. 1 in 2 chance to lose all your money.
Neg-Wheel of Fortune: 1 in 2 change to add Foil, Holographic, Polychrome to a random joker, 1 in 2 chance to create a cursed Joker [Cursed Joker: No Effect, can not be sold]

I'mma stop there, but you get the idea 🙂

[mint token]

That sounds fun, always a challenge to play around kiss-curse mechanics in games.

[mint token]

@obsidian apex probably time to set up a dedicated welcome channel 😉
https://www.pcguide.com/discord/how-to/make-a-welcome-channel/

[obsidian apex]

Thanks for the suggestion! I'll do that now

Can someone please help this boomer discord andy? What do these discords normally do for a welcome?

As in where am I missing the mark?

[thorn tulip]

pretty sure you can just add a channel called #📜・rules (or something) and tell discord to put the new member texts in there instead of #🎙・server-chat

[obsidian apex]

Okay I can do that, but it's cool if discord still sends those chats?

Like is that what is bothering people about the current setup? or that the welcome messages were mixed in with general

[thorn tulip]

mainly that it was mixed with the general chat

(btw you could just look at the roll discord to see how its handled over there)

[obsidian apex]

I was looking over there, it's hard for me to test if it's working properly though since I cant join my own discord. I'll try and change it and people please berate me here if it's still messed up

Just bully me honestly

[lyric lance]

An in game speed run timer for beating A10 boss. Risk skipping SB/BBs, make decisions as fas as possible, play smaller hands/decks to shuffle/score hands for less time

[mint token]

its the mixing - and those big ass wave glyphs

a lot of discords have a #👋・welcome channel where new members are annouced and ppl can wave

ahh nvm

I;ve asked some friends to try joining the discord

[mint token]

nvm seems to be working!

[thorn tulip]

what if the base cost for rerolls was equal to you ante?

[obsidian apex]

I love that idea

[royal night]

3 plus ante

That way early game rerolls with gold deck aren't busted

[flat spear]

Love the game. Just finished a run (my first W!) and I don't think I should have won lol. I'd suggest Mr Bones pushes the player either back to the start of the round or back to the shop screen-preventing death atm sort just means you win the blind and it doesn't seem like it should to me.

So for clarity - my suggestion is Mr Bones Joker should reset the round or bump players back to the shop screen before the round - not provide an instant round win.

I'd also love it if playing multiple types of hands in one play resulted in combos but I understand that this would increase the complexity of balancing the game significantly. If that's not possible, being able to select what hand would be nice but I know generally the 'highest' hand wins and it tracks that it would also take precedence in calculating the hand played

[leaden sparrow]

I think that the Cursor should look more interesting than standart. Something like that

Also I think in the game, there should be an option to view poker combinations at any time. It would be very convenient in my opinion.

[flat spear]

if you click run info and then poker hands you can see combos whenever @leaden sparrow was that what you meant?

[leaden sparrow]

Oh, yes, thanks. I mean which cards does which combination consist of, but now I see it

[static niche]

Most, if not all of the game only requires mouse to work. Thus, the game's opening sequence should also be skipabble with a mouse click, and not require pressing esc.

[lyric lance]

The top of the deck can be clicked and dragged around, what if clicking it opened the Deck tab?

[wanton spade]

I had no idea this was a thing you could do, so yeah lol

[tender comet]

If you have negative money thanks to the credit card, I think it would be cool if the hermit doubled your debt 😄

[thorn tulip]

i think it would be cool if it turned it positive

[grand drum]

Funny, but no

[static niche]

disregard the rarity and the polychrome

but these two cards, with the exact same effect (with only the multiplier changed) have the same text

i assume that is the case for the other cards of that type too

for the sake of consistency, they should share the same text

[grand drum]

There are some other cards that share same effect, but have slightly different wording

Also, suggestion - add third sorting option for enchants

[tender comet]

The Idol joker says "X3 mult for each X when played, card changes each round" though it only triggers on cards that are in the scoring hand, do extra cards that aren't scored not count as played? Could possibly update card text to say "for each X scored"?

[obsidian apex]

It used to say 'play and scores' but that was too wordy, and 'scores' may insinuate that cards still in your hand that contribute (like glass cards or raised fist cards etc) would also be included
I think I just need to make sure that it is consistent - only cards in the poker hand itself count for jokers

So I want to stick with played, technically less correct but I think more intuitive for new players

[tender comet]

ah that makes sense, didn't think about hand cards adding to the score

[obsidian apex]

Also something I can add to the tutorial - saying that cards not part of the poker hand do not get used in scoring ever

[lyric lance]

In Super Auto Pets you get a ribbon got your pet collection when you win with that pet. It'd be cool if our joker collection had cards get a boarder or halo or some such when you bean the game/NG+/NG++ to incentivise unique and creative builds using all jokers at some stage, rather than only winning with a few tries and tested methods. Perhaps you need to have the joker before Ante 6 for it to count so you can't just buy it at Ante 10 shop and get a quick win.

[static niche]

It's a bit insignificant; but I hate how the game prefers stronger hands sometimes over more-upgraded hands

Like, unless you get ||the "chance to upgrade hand level" joker, you cannot upgrade five of a kind/flush house||, so i have ended up with runs I've intentionally scored flushes instead of what i mentioned above, just because I have upgraded my flush too much

[static niche]

Pressing esc while on the main menu should provide the player with an option to quit the game.

[junior plaza]

A button for deselecting all cards would be nice. It's tedious to do so 1 by 1. I would map it to M2 as default.

[royal night]

Quality of life thing have the joker unlocks with specific cards list the cards also a list of unlocks for the decks if any of them are special

[lyric lance]

When playing Death Tarot card, when 2 or 3 more cards are selected to be used in the transformation into the right most card, include some small animation/highlight of the right most card to make extra clear that's the one that will get copied. A few times now I've copied the wrong card as my brain knew I wanted to turn 3 and 5 into kings etc but the king was on the left not the right and the game can't read my mind. Also may help for people who struggle with left and right

[lyric lance]

Deck Suggestion: 'Needle in a Haystack' Start the game with 1 Common or Uncommon Joker of your choice, -1 Max Joker Slots.

[thorn tulip]

That just sounds like the white/silver deck but worse

[lyric lance]

Haven't seen white yet 😅

[thorn tulip]

Welp… you’ll see what I mean when you do

[grand drum]

I feel like it should be specified in the tutorial (if it isn’t already), that you can move around jokers/cards. OR, I guess easy fix would be to change Death from right most, to left most

[obsidian apex]

That is in the tutorial now - I think when you first played it was still the original tutorial. It was updated with quite a few quality of life suggestions like that one (it also explains that you need to select cards to use some tarot cards, which is something people were getting confused by)

[grand drum]

Good to hear. Still, what was the original idea behind Death targeting right and not left card?

[lyric lance]

Ok, hear me out: The Lowball Deck
This changes the hand ranking chart to that of 2-7 lowball. from best to worst
7 low, 8 low, 9 low, 10 low, J low, Q low, K low, A low, pair+.
Hand size is lowered to 7 cards and you must play 5 cards to score. 4 fingers allows you to submit 4 card lows, and the 'must play <5 cards boss is disabled.
Planets instead buff their respective low hand rank.
Jokers are all unchanged. The game becomes much harder because small cards score fewer chips, but have higher multipliers. Jokers effecting hand rank mults will provide mults on pairs etc, but Pairs+ will only ever have the lowest hand ranking.

[royal night]

A deck that random changed suits

[weary lily]

This is a minor gripe I have but when launching the game, I wish I could use my mouse to click the intro splash screen away.

It's a mouse-only game, don't make me press escape for that.

[burnt sentinel]

I've been playing this a bunch and my main problem with the game is that the focus is much more on the Jokers than on the pokerhands. What i mean is that the Jokers are quite unbalanced, where the best keep scaling and some gives consistent multipliers around 20 and especially the Joker that gives multiplies your multiplier by 3 when you buy a new joker - easy and boring win. The Jokers that focus on specific poker hands (flush or 3 of a kind) only gives 5-7 multiplier and are comparably terrible. Most of my games the poker hands seems irrelevant to some extend as long as i got some good Jokers. One of the best starting cards is the one where you play only 3 cards for a 14x multiplier and now I actively only goes for pair and 3 of a kind. Most games it's much stronger and easier to go for consistent pairs, 2 pairs and 3 of a kind - then ignore everything else. Royal flush seems irrelevant when my par 5s gives more, which is a bit sad.
Also upgrading poker hands quickly makes the easier pokerhands (which you want to upgrade) much more valuable than the more difficult to get poker hands. I think the balance should change so difficult poker hands should be more valuable.
I think the game would really benefit from a focus changed to more focus on building difficult poker hands rather than Jokers. 1) More value to difficult poker hands 2) More tools to change your deck 3) more power to Jokers where you need something specific (like 4 of a kind) and less power to Jokers that generally benefits you always.
It would be awesome to try and build a deck where you could semi consistent get a Royal Straight Flush or 4 of a kind, but its too difficult with the current tools and not remotely worth it.
I really enjoy this fun and unique game and think some tweaking can make it great.

[static niche]

I understand the idea behind it, but I feel like you are describing a whole different game. This game feels like it's built mostly around the jokers, and in a lesser degree around the deck, by design.
I'll concede that some jokers are usually pretty useless; but they are early game jokers. Also, it looks like they are supposed to appear to early-game antes, helping you to get a cheap joker and survive the first few antes while building a stable economy. I guess we could benefit for a rarity decrease of the jokers. One could consider, should vouchers or economy be reworked, adding a "shop upgrade" system, the way many autobattlers do, thus creating "pools" of increasingly powerful jokers. But that might just result in a solved game.

[mint token]

With tarot cards you can pretty much build any deck you like. My last run my deck 15 jacks (for a certain joker), 17 2's (for another joker) 12 7's (I was unlocking the 7 clubs joker) and half a dozen stone cards and some other random crap. I just quit at ante 20 but could have gone a lot longer

[static niche]

I feel like OP is talking about the normal run time, and not the endless mode

[tender comet]

would be cool if the strength tarot turned aces into 2s 🙂

(thinking of the wee jack!)

[grand drum]

Yep, rolling “sealed” ace when going for high score is worse than gettin 7s 😅

[young folio]

Would you ever consider a save option for jokers? Even just one joker amd you can only save it for 1 round. I encountered in the demo a holocrome version of the flag giving extra chips per discard. But it was like 16-18 coins and i was only on round 2, I almost cried haha.
Just a personal suggestion but might be an intended part of the challenge? Or maybe even set the rare variants to only appear after ante 2 or 3? I know some people complain about early game but i havent struggled with this myself (yet)

[sudden wagon]

@burnt sentinel Perhaps there should be a deck that reduces allowed jokers in exchange for enhance multipliers on hands? I think that would help with the 'just grab ez jokers' meta. As I'm guilty of that too.

[young folio]

I think the first 2 antes its beneficial currently to grab any multi to improve your deck, and if it fits later great, if not sell and replace for the ideal matches later on.

[weary lily]

make it possible to "buy & use" the pattern voucher if the tarot/planet supports it

[lyric lance]

In the later game you will be able to afford these in round 1, just an outcome of finding it in the demo where your unlocks are minimal unfortunately

[young folio]

Got ya, yeah having limits of the demo and YT videos i must have missed that. But good to know. Love the vids!

[royal night]

i think delayed grat should just give you one dollar per discard but not require the no discard as it would be similar to gaining from left over hands but for discards

[lyric lance]

Achievement suggestion: Beat Ante 10 with only common Jokers

Achievement suggestion: Beat Ante 10 without ever holding more than $20

[static niche]

And, of course, Beat Ante 10 with only Base Jokers.

Also, beat ante 10 in ||NG+/NG++/NG+++|| are a given

[supple surge]

No joker achievements are a possibility too (unless there's already plans for those)

[static niche]

No joker?

[supple surge]

Deliberately not taking jokers and still trying to win?

[static niche]

I don't really think that would be possible?

there's an unlock for up to 4 jokers

[supple surge]

Maybe not a full win, but maybe getting past first boss or so

[static niche]

I can see that one, yes

[weary lily]

your reward: a joker that does literally nothing (aka my version of the glitch joker)

just dilutes your pool

[supple surge]

Evil... I love it!

[static niche]

That's plain stupid. I'd much rather have a pair of jokers that only work with each other, with the one being easy to unlock (and diluting your pool for a while) and the other being quite hard to unlock

Still dilutes the pool, but there's a point to having that, not just be petty

[weary lily]

oh, I'm far from being serious

[static niche]

A pair of jokers that only work with each other would be quite cool though

[weary lily]

just because I've got a sprout next to my name doesn't mean I'm no sapling to humor

[lyric lance]

Right Arm of Joker
Left Arm of Joker
Right Leg of Joker
Left Leg of Joker
Joker the Forbidden One

[thorn tulip]

Mr Bones the Forbidden One

[grand drum]

Mrs Bones. Squared power of Mr Bones

[clear tulip]

I'm really curious as to if this game is intended to be perfected then left or to constantly be enrolling new features in to the future (a way off and things change ofc)

[tender comet]

Could have some secret jokers like one which doesn’t even enter the shop pool until you’ve sold fifty jokers

[clear tulip]

Has any kind of multiplayer potential been discussed ever?

[static niche]

How would you even implement multiplayer in the game?

Also, any kind of multiplayer is real work, it's not just flipping a switch

netcode, servers, whole different game infastructure

[clear tulip]

Indeed I am familiar with the difficulties ahah

I was thinking some kind of head to head with own respective decks and some kind of slider

[static niche]

There is a multiplayer version of this game I am aware of though.

[clear tulip]

there is?

[static niche]

Ever heard of Five Card Stud?

[clear tulip]

no

[static niche]

What about Texas Holdem?

[clear tulip]

oh i thought you meant like a game on steam rofl

yes I know

[static niche]

So disregard my previous joke. This is a game all about getting the highest possible number. Such a design, 2 decks, seperate jokers etc. would just result in a solved game.

What you can do is something like speedrun to try to get the highest scoring single hand in X minutes or something like that

But that's just leaderboard things, this is quite likely not to result in something interactive

If you make it interactive, you're technically just reinventing poker.

[lyric lance]

from a prior patch note:
-Save data is now all no longer plain text and much smaller/faster to load and save or send over the internet for potential future daily challenge runs

may be dailies down the line, don't know if they'll have a leaderboard compoentn though

[static niche]

fuck i cannot mess with save data easily

rip my 15 round or less unlock

We could always just do something like this: Have a random seed automatically generated and shared on discord. 2+ people play the same seed at the same time. Whoever goes the furthest/gets the highest scoring hand/Reaches Ante X the fastest wins

It's a community driven solution though, but I wouldn't like to see multiplayer implemented in the game anyways, except if it was in a fashion resembling some kind of leaderboard, like daily challenges would.

[clear tulip]

I think with minor alterations to the concept a multiplayer mode could be hugely successful

a la bloon td battles or something more like hearthstone

I think the notion of a solved game is hugely incorrect unless we have different ideas of general concept

it's a discussion that has no place now irrespective but it depends entirely on the direction localthunk wants to take it I suppose

@obsidian apex I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on a prospective (long way off) future?

[static niche]

In Bloon TD Battles, you have lots of things to play with. Also TD games have many variables, like enemies, towers, tower upgrades, even pure mechanical skill on a multiplayer version of TD games.

In this, your only enemy is a number of chips, i cannot really think of a way to implement jokers as something you can have a build around, but also have it be elegant enough to have multiples of it.

You cannot make anything special about that number; unless you mess around with the idea of having X blinds beaten by X suits/ranks. But then luck of the draw becomes a massive factor.

[clear tulip]

Not chips themselves, but a balance between two players

consider geoguessr's pvp system for example

allowing for a range of strategies via a tweaked investment system or the like

[obsidian apex]

I've thought about it and I think a SAP style mode where you face 1 random person at your same round level and compete for who gets a higher score might be fun. The person that scores most chips with all their hands/discards moves on to next round.

There are a lot of problems with it though. And no it's not on the horizon, just a thought I have had. Focusing on making it a fun single player release (possibly with a daily challenge leaderboard)

[clear tulip]

Yes I do think any such idea is a long way off

Thanks for the reply 🙂

[static niche]

SAP could actually work, but it would still need a major design overhaul in order to be fun. Game is a great roguelike, no need to put in multiplayer just for the sake of it. unless the publisher pushes for it, we could also make this AN ESPORT

[clear tulip]

I personally wouldn't like to see it take that route- I think an RTS has a lot more scalability and competitive aspect

[young folio]

I like the idea of a leader board, like the highest ante reached each day, or highest hand each day etc. And maybe the top 5 or so would get some sort of a cosmetic bonus? Different back ground or alternate deck design for an existing deck. Not sure. But could be fun just to see what everyone else is doing. Without the head to head aspect.

Maybe even highest gold at the end of a run. Could even add a joker or achievement for ranking top 5 maybe. Just a thought.

[static niche]

RTS = Interaction, and there is no way to really interact unless you make hands somehow hace an actual physical value.

Like a unit of sorts, kind of like a minion in hearthstone

[clear tulip]

In the simple concept i'm thinking of it would have a hold em type overlay where cards are slowly revealed on what is effectively a conveyer belt shared between two players

separate decks and jokers otherwise, with limited perhaps purchasable discards

[obsidian apex]

That's a different game

[clear tulip]

In the same way you could argue bloons battles is a different game to the regular tower defense

I don

[obsidian apex]

If I ever make a multiplayer version I would want the strategy and game mode in general to resemble single player

[clear tulip]

Indeed I respect that

I don't doubt it will do great irrespective

just a scalability question

[obsidian apex]

Because there's one of me and that would be like supporting 2 different games

[clear tulip]

Doesn't have to be forever 😉 -- But I did mean distant future irrespective

[static niche]

The concept of towers and bloons is basically the same among the two games. That's how it works.

Don't get me wrong, your proposal sounds neat, but the only thing these 2 games have in common is poker hands, and, well, you are just re-inventing poker here, not balatro

[clear tulip]

I think you're misunderstanding

[static niche]

If you'd play it, feel free to make it.

[clear tulip]

If only I could ahaha

My coding ability is rather limited at present

[static niche]

Well, you could make it in the future.

Or you could start the project and work on it little by little.

[clear tulip]

This is rather unrealistic

I think we can both agree

[static niche]

Not really. Balatro is made by a sole developer. Countless other games have been developed by sole developers too.

It doesn't have to be something to be released; you can always start with a prototype and go from there

[clear tulip]

I feel like you have an accidentally condescending rhetoric style

I'm fully aware of how the process works

I was discussing an idea for a multiplayer concept

which I'm sure is not your intention btw

[obsidian apex]

Keep it on topic

[clear tulip]

It would indeed take years to develop I'm sure however

But thank you for the discussion

[static niche]

My intention is to state that this is a good game as is. And multiplayer would need a whole different design, thus, would be a whole new game. If someone is willing to make that game, I don't think anyone would be opposed to it. That's all, won't come back on this. Back on topic.

[lyric lance]

Suggestion: A Really Expensive Voucher that when purchased, you get to pick a common joker to add to your pool. The upgraded version would be even more expensive, but let you add an uncommin. This could be expanded to rare if vouchers are ever upped to a three tier system

[obsidian apex]

Like ring master?

But for individual cards?

[lyric lance]

I can't remember what Ring master is

[static niche]

can see multiple of the same tarot/planet/joker

(Joker btw)

[lyric lance]

I mean it brings up a grid of all common Jokers to scroll through, then click and confirm one to be added to your bench of jokers

[static niche]

Ah, not the shop pool but rather your "hand of jokers"

[lyric lance]

It could be added to the shop stock, or even be put in the now empty voucher slot for its standard cost

reorder these in the collection to be in hand rank order

[carmine lynx]

"pick one of 27 items" thing from luck be a landlord but, jokers

oops replied to wrong message

[static niche]

I feel they are kinda ordered quite neatly artwise, because they are ordered in ascending number of cards in hand order

Also, certain ranks are missing

(Or rather, they are contained in other ranks for gameplay reasons)

If anything, I'd argue they should be in the same row, my OCD is triggered

[silver vapor]

I don't know if it's already suggested, but I thought of a interesting mechanic:

For context, let's say that I played an Ace, followed by a King, Queen, Jack and two 10s. The obvious hand that it would make is a Straight, right? But what about the two 10s?

So, I don't know if it should be implemented, but make so that we could make multiple poker hands, but the secondary hand would have it's effect halved. That would be applied to any poker hand.

Ex.: Straight + Pair (30x3 + 10x2 [halved])
30x3 + 5x1 = 35x4 = 140 chips.

[lyric lance]

AKQJTT is 6 cards, which can't be played

only exception is if you have '4 Fingers' Joker, allowing 4 finger straights and flushes + a pair, but that's a single niche circumstance

[obsidian apex]

I guess same idea would apply with like a flush with a pair too though - since you can have multiple cards with same suit and rank. But in those instances those hands will trigger any jokers that apply to hands with pairs for example

[young folio]

More of a question but i know of the flush house and 5 of a kind, is there a 5 of a kind flush combo hand? Like you have 15 8of hearts or something and you play 5 of the same card? Could be rare but interesting add if not already implemented. Maybe even an achievement for the first time playing?

[lyric lance]

As an alternate to a voucher, something like a "Chrysalis Joker" This Joker has no effect, in X (adjust for balance) turns, this joker matures into a common joker of your choice.

[young folio]

I like that one idea.

[carmine lynx]

if you can remove the randomness component from this it's even better - ensuring that it offers all common unlocked and not a subset. otherwise you're gambling on a delayed effect instead of just delaying an effect

[young folio]

A joker with no initial value but evolves esentially into a common joker of your choice. After X timeframe. Id take it.

[lyric lance]

Suggestion: A streak counter for the main menu or deck selection menu.

Suggestion: Multidimensional Joker- after selecting a blind, this joker becomes a random joker. Resets to Multidimensional Joker in the shop.

[carmine lynx]

any way "options" could be accessible from in-game menu and not main menu only? make adjusting game speed or any settings a little more onerous than if it were nested in there as well

[obsidian apex]

It is

[carmine lynx]

wow

it's the top option

i'm literally blind

wow quick work @obsidian apex - thanks for the fix!

[tender comet]

you could consider gating off seeded runs until after the first win?

[obsidian apex]

What about disabling unlocks for seeded runs?

[tender comet]

that's a really good idea imo!!!

[thorn tulip]

when the game is fully out

[tender comet]

oh yeah it's great for trying broken things rn

once it's out though, without being fun police, some seeds are gonna be completely busted and make progressoin a lot less porganic - but i guess if a player wants that then hey ho

*organic

[young folio]

I like that one. Seeded runs can make winning too easy know a certain seed is partial to a certain build

[lyric lance]

Suggestion: An 'Off Topic' channel to discuss other stuff going on

[mossy trellis]

Suggestions:

Separate Card Holder- This would be for Tarot and Planetary cards and it would be like 3 that is away from the Joker Holders. Speaking of them....

Joker Expansions- We need to get Joker expansions because relying on just the Negative versions can be nerve racking and to have to pay you know 10-15-20-etc to get Joker upgrades would give the young Jokers a chance to fight someone like, oh IDK, Violet Vessel... Just saying.

[young folio]

I think 2 should realistically be enough tarot/planet cards held since they usually get used pretty immediately.

[mossy trellis]

Agreed

[young folio]

Maybe hold 1 for changing suits or upgrading certain cards but you shouldnt be holding for more than 2 or 3 hands i feel, like even the boss blind tarot card would be used in 2 if you found on small blind. Then you have 1 extra for a tarot you cant buy and use from the store.

[young folio]

Suggestion: rare variants of planet cards? Low drop/ spawn rate. Could either effect the level of multiple hands, give a bigger boost to their respected hand or other boost such as give 3 gold and level a hand, level a hand by 2, or even level a hanf and give 1 steel card, glass card, bonus card etc.

Not all in one just giving ideas for possible differences to the normal planets.

[lyric lance]

Suggestion (Quality of Life): A Gamepplay Options toggle for Cards in Hand to rank 'Low to High' or 'High to Low' Even after 35 hours of play it still feels a little off having 2s on the far right

[static niche]

When using death, you usually want to convert cards to those of a higher face value. Thus, it would make more sense if they all converted to the leftmost card among those selected, instead of the rightmost among those selected.

(I've done this mistake quite a few times)

[young folio]

Whys that? Its not that hard to move the cards around before hand, though maybe moving cards in hand could be better addressed in the tutorial?

[royal night]

Being able to use tarot cards on your deck in-between rounds would be amazing I've had it where I can't use some cards because my tarot cards take up to many joker slots since planets can be bought and used not being able to use some tarot outside of rounds kinda hurts

[young folio]

I think that could be intended though. Making the player choose instead of just having all of it every round. Though similar ideas have been suggested for like a 2 card max secondary hand for planet/tarot cards.

[static niche]

ok so played for ~30 mins because i am on a limited schedule. I quite enjoy the experimental patch. Lost early game quite often, because of some unnecessary risks i took trying to get some tags because I was greedy, which should indeed be punished.

My 2 cents here would be: Make the ante change after the shop. This will give you 3 chances to get the first voucher, whereas you have 2 rn. Also, this will allow the investment tag to be used on the (known) voucher if necessary.

Chance based tags, from my limited playing, generally seem not that worth it (lose 6-10$ to get an extra chance of buying a holo, that is more expensive in the first place, and also you are not sure it's going to be a good one?). Also, when you miss, you just feel like you wasted a blind. Suggestion/Solution: Tags persist if their effect is not successfully activated.

No bugs found. Kind of not liking the voucher nerf, but it should just be because, well, it's a nerf and they always feel bad.

Will come back on the build the next few days.

(Also haven't seen the blank voucher yet.)

[grand drum]

Yeah, no spoons do hurt. Maybe time to up the starting gold?

[static niche]

I tend to forget it some times. I play a bit fast.

[static niche]

It also helps teach players about interest. I wouldn't be opposed to a 9$ starting gold; equivalent of beginning the run with a spoon, also allows you to buy that rare polychrome joker in the offchance it appears in the very first shop.

[royal night]

That'd be appreciated as using certain jokers like the pair of8s one I never seem to have room

[static niche]

ok so, remember when i said that offchance of a negative appearing first shop?

should have wished for 1 million dollars instead.

[flint rose]

If they were made persistent until triggering they'd need a greatly reduced chance to avoid being way too good. And even so, while initially I had the same feeling as you, I think I want to give it time. The voucher nerf actually makes skipping blinds far more attractive since you're no longer missing out on 1-2 vouchers by doing so, so once you get a good enough joker setup that shops are less vital, a 1-in-5 chance for a polychrome can be worth skipping a shop+payout.

[flint rose]

This I definitely agree with, though it's hard to think of a clear and concise term for describing that vs. "Defeat boss blind to restock"

[silver vapor]

Some new Jokers:

• Joker Shark: +3 Multi. +1 Multi. every time you play a Flush. Change the suit once you've done it.
• Perfect Joker: Once you play a hand, there a 15% chance of a random card in that hand to apply an additional Multi. based on its rank.
• Apprentice Joker: +2 Multi. Every time you upgrade a poker hand, +1 Multi..

[lyric lance]

Polychrome/foil etc are randomly assigned to any joker, they aren't inherit to a specific joker.

[still isle]

Make a royal flush

[slender ridge]

Voucher/Joker suggestion that I'm guessing is already in here somewhere.

Ghost finger: You may play an additional card on the first/last hand of the round.

or some such

[sturdy anvil]

Random idea for a rare Joker: allow clubs/spades/hearts/diamonds to count as any other suit.

[thorn tulip]

there is one that does half of that

[young folio]

Sounds too strong and defeats the purpose of the wild cards

[sturdy anvil]

Understandable.

[silver vapor]

A new Joker concept:

• Highlander Joker: If this Joker is the leftmost Joker, +10 Multi..

[sturdy anvil]

The pitiful joker: +10 chips for 2, 3, 4, 5 cards of any suit

Kinda like scary face but for lower value cards

[silver vapor]

The Obelisk (Joker): +2 Multi. For each Stone card in your deck, +1 Multi.

Actually, there should be a different page for these suggestions, maybe a forum, and there we would have a section for Jokers, one for Vouchers, for Tarot cards etc.

[sturdy anvil]

You could suggest that the suggestions page be converted into a forum. There is functionality for that in discord

[silver vapor]

Yep

So grab your ideas, if they would do that

[grand drum]

if perfect joker works per hand only once, it would be very bad, if its 33% per every card than its busted.
apprentice joker is just better Space joker, except for very specific 5 of a kind late game

[grand drum]

6 card hand? oh no no no, that wont happen

[young folio]

I think this type of joker already exists. Not 100% sure how this compares to wee joker.

[silver vapor]

The Perfect Joker is per hand, and you can suggest a lower percentage.

[lyric lance]

Hack: "Trigger all 2/3/4/5s two times when played."

[young folio]

A joker/achievement for discovering 5 different types of secret hands or something? Could be interesting. Maybe something similar to the space joker but improved, like 1 in 4 chance to level up a hand with like +5 multi or something.

It would pair well with the dice joker to make it more used, doubling the odds of occurence would make it a 1 in 2 chance to level and the lucky cards would benefit as well.

[grand drum]

Aren’t there only ||2|| secret hands? Also realistically only hands that you want to level up with Space joker are flushes, full houses and ||5 of a kind|| and +5 multi for them is much worse. I would prefer +20 chips or something like that, but it might be too powerful tbh

Also it would be hard to track the upgrades for hands (that are not levels)

[obsidian apex]

I appreciate all the joker suggestions - there are a lot of cool things that can be done with them and I plan on adding hundreds more if game affords me to, but that won't be for quite a while yet. Just don't expect massive joker changes before release

However, the next update I want to get the balance to be in a more fun place, mainly with the Jokers. So if you have suggestions for current jokers I'd love to hear them, especially jokers you never take or feel like you're obligated to take

[young folio]

I like the jokers as they are, but there are definitely some that id love to build runs with that dont seem to have too much to synergize with them. Not 100% sure how to fix but maybe other joker or tarot cards to help encourage a no face cards build? Maybe even buffing the wee joker or bivonaccis to make the lower ranked cards more relevant?

Not sure but i feel like buffing the wee joker or bivonaccis could help with a ride the bus build because id like to see it get used more but people tend to avoid due to high straights or flushes. I will definitely be trying to build several different ride the bus runs whenever i get access to the game.

[thorn tulip]

dont think buffing wee joker is a good idea

[obsidian apex]

Wee is OP if anything

[young folio]

Maybe not the wee joker, im not as familiar with the buff. But maybe bivonaccis would give more multi or even like +5-10 chips with it? I know that could compound fast with the levels of multi that can be obtained from legends or polychrome, but itd be fun to see with like ride the bus, bivonacci, blueprint or the mime, chikot and another joker in there. Could get to some crazy numbers and with chikot building off the removal of face cards you could remove the faces or turn them to stone or something (if that counts and get pretty carzy with it.

[mint token]

Wee joker +blueprint + tarot deck ... thats how I got my ante 20 run. It's very OP

[static niche]

What's wee again? The copying ones?

Also, the one that buffs Aces is pretty underwhelming too (scholar?)

[thorn tulip]

chips scaling for playing 2s

[static niche]

Oh is it one of the round challenge unlocks?

[thorn tulip]

ye

[static niche]

Yeah haven't seen that

[thorn tulip]

me neither

[clear tulip]

Finding some of the rewards for skipping blinds underwhelming. Planetarium + tarot reading + scaling jokers like ride the bus and fortune teller + money from end of round >>> 1 round of 5 planetarium-- just an opinion of course

[mint token]

I like it more than the previous incarnartion

[clear tulip]

Indeed the concept is great but the reward often feels underwhelming when scaling exists via rounds

[static niche]

The idea is that you don't always have planetarium/crystal ball voucher. However, I too find the 1/5 planetarium tag pretty underwelming, when compared to the tarot reading tag.

Then again not every joker is playable, so not every tag should be a must either

When would you get base joker? (Apart from really early in the run, since it's really cheap.)

[flint rose]

I feel like multiplicative jokers are in a weird place, where they're both overpowered but also impossible to nerf without making later antes/NG+++ impossible. I find that most of my best runs come down to trimming my jokers down to a few effective mult+/chip+ and filling the remaining slots with any multiplicatives I'm offered.

It feels bad whenever I have a fully synergized build but then get offered, say, a stencil joker - I feel obligated to sell off two of the weaker (but still synergizing) cards of my build to make the stencil work because it's such an effective, exponential increase in power. And I can't just say Stencil Joker/multiplicatives should be nerfed because I need that exponential power increase to take on the higher antes.

Polychrome jokers show this problem even more blatantly - I will sell off weak-but-synergizing jokers to take a polychrome joker that doesn't synergize at all with my build because the x2 is so useful/necessary.

[still isle]

royal flush when 😩

[slender ridge]

If anything, polychrome feels awfully busted if you can snag more than one

[flint rose]

I similarly feel obligated to take Blueprint/Brainstorm every time, because they can copy multiplicatives

One potential solution I've thought of is a way to Upgrade most jokers into a multiplicative form. Something beyond polychrome, I mean. For example, changing Even Steven from +2 Mult per even to *1.2 Mult per even.

[still isle]

also pretty sure this is suggestions channel so yall can continue discussing in #🎙・server-chat ?

[flint rose]

Even Steven is a fairly weak Joker that I will always sell off as I get to the later antes, but upgrading him to *1.2 Mult per even would make him *2.48832 Mult in a fully even hand - a pretty nice amount, and straight-up better than just a random polychrome. I could end up using Strength/Hanging Man to specifically change odds to evens to make Even Steven+ more effective, something I'd have no reason to do before

[flint rose]

I like the idea of multiplicatives that fully synergize with my joker/deckbuilding creativity, raher than feeling obligated to trim down my early/mid builds to cater specifically to the first good multiplicative I get my hands on (Stencil: keep a rotating Joker slot, Hit the Road: copy as many Jacks as possible, Seeing Double: copy as many 7♣️ , etc.)

And since simply nerfing multiplicatives would make high antes impossible, it would make sense to buff non-multiplicatives in some fashion so they can compete

Could also make all Jokers start on equal ground by changing multiplicatives into +Mults that upgrade into their current multiplicative form, like Joker Stencil starting as +50 mult if Joker was bought and upgrading to *3. Might be going too far there, though.

And to be clear, you'd still want enough good +Mults to give *Mults a good base number to start from, so upgrading a +Mult to a *Mult would be a real choice to be made.

Anyway, that's enough raving about my pet idea.

[obsidian apex]

When I was making these jokers I evaluate them on 3 main criteria:
How fun is it?
How simple is it?
How well does it synergize?
Some of these ideas are better balanced but less simple. You've identified an issue with Polychrome and Stencil specifically, but most of the other Xmults have some build you need to shoot for with their own set of synergies.
If Stencil and Polychrome work against building those synergies then I'll gladly modify or nerf them because that is less fun IMO, but blueprint, hit the road, brainstorm, seeing double I think are all fun cards because they're archetype runs that take some work and luck to get to pop off, in addition to their own set of synergies

So, for example, I could make the requirement for stencil to be something more niche so it's not always an insta take

And I could make Polychrome X1.5

[flint rose]

That's fair. I guess I should mention that Hit the Road is probably my favorite *Mult, and my favorite and best run has been comboing that with Seeing Double

[obsidian apex]

I think OP items like that have a place in roguelites. Definitely a balance though. Your comment about polychrome has come up multiple times

[thorn tulip]

how about making stencil start at x1 and it increases for every joker bought in the last shop

[obsidian apex]

lol that's what it was for the longest time in development. Very hard to word it though

There were like 4 cards like that. Same idea as hit the road

I got lots of complaints

Stencil actually used to be X1 mult for each empty joker slot

Which was a great synergy with tarot runs because it rewards empty slots

[flint rose]

I kinda feel like I'd prefer that; I've never gotten a full tarot run going because I feel too pressured to fill all the slots, and that would give Stencil a niche rather than just quick-and-easy-*3Mult

I'm guessing there were reasons for changing it, though

[static niche]

now its art makes sense!

[obsidian apex]

Honestly it was just the wording

[obsidian apex]

I know that would have been way more thematic

I'll change it if I can find a better way to describe it

[static niche]

Joker with an empty joker stencil, that fills in when active?

like, 2 jokers in the same hand, 1 holding the empty joker in its hands

[flint rose]

I'd rather not change the stencil art, I love Jokers that play with the alpha channel like that

[static niche]

With all the difficulty to get the crystal ball rn, I feel like Driver's license might need a small buff, a decrease to its requirement to activate.

[thorn tulip]

i think its fine

[obsidian apex]

16 is the theme with that card though, I don't mind it

[static niche]

Something that BOI does that I personally love in such games: Spamming esc in main menu quits the game instead of opening options menu.

[flint rose]

I'd want there to be a confirmation popup with this, though. Escape instantly quitting when on the main menu is not great but letting you press it twice to quit would be fine

[clear tulip]

Shoot the moon is extremely underwhelming given the preparation it took- just did a spades only focus with intent on getting mime + stm + the leftover hand joker-- seems underpowered given the required setup

throwback being the leftover thing

[sly pollen]

Is it just me or is it weird that death is the "turn cards into other cards" one and the hanged man is the remove cards one. Like, it would be pretty cool if death "killed" cards.

[obsidian apex]

It's related to the divination meaning of the card
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_(tarot_card)

[sly pollen]

fair enough

[daring canopy]

For the "Mime" joker, sometimes identifying what works with "In hand" can be troublesome. Just for QOL Maybe highlighting In hand either by default (with an option menu toggle?) or when you have the "Mime" in your hand it highlights all "In hand" instances. Only reason I say this is because I'm having a hard time finding things that synergize with it other than Gold cards and Raised Fist (TBF i only have half of the jokers unlocked).

[sturdy anvil]

One thing I’ve noticed is that it’s sometimes hard to get the ball rolling initially so to speak. After I get some combos going it gets a bit easier-feels like I need to take a low multiplier joker just to get an initial jumpstart

[keen wind]

It would be really nice if "The Eye" boss showed which hands have been played already, I keep forgetting

Additionally, the "Flower Pot" Joker doesn't really make it clear that the four suit cards need to be part of your scoring play, not just played in general

Game is fantastic though, really really dig it!

I also threw two suggestions on steam, but I'll repost them here

One suggestion is showing a "unlocked" page when completing a run. I keep getting into this weird situation where I finish a run, start a new one, pick my deck, then get a bunch of random notifications of unlocks, but I've already selected my new deck, so if I'd like to utilize one of the new ones I need to exit out. Often when I do exit, I get notified of several more unlocks I wasn't aware of.

Additionally, I'd love a "clear all" button for the notifications of unlocks on the collection page.

On deck selection, it would be nice to see the unlocked decks in a grid, with hover over showing what their unique properties are

similar to the Joker view in collections

clicking through on the arrow slideshow view is a lot of clicks for the information

I'd love a most played deck within the "high scores" and it would make more sense if that was called "Stats" to me, as it's more analytics then just high scores

one more, with a lucky card played, I would love some indication if I was lucky or not, I haven't seen one so far, so I assume I'm just unlucky 100% of the time?

[young folio]

As far as i know several of these mentions already exist, i do know when a lucky card goes off itll show the +20 multi or chips bonus when scoring. But they only have a chance to proc if partbof the scoring hand as with all bonuses. Multi cards, bonus cards and lucky are only effective when part of a valid hand. So a 3 of a kind with 2 non included bonus cards will not activate the bonus effect and will treat any cards not part of that score as discards.

[young folio]

The lucky cards can ve easily missed though depending on the speed you have your game play set to

[keen wind]

Makes sense, some visual if they were unlucky might be helpful

I've never had one go lucky on me yet lol

[young folio]

Hmmm interesting, but i could see that being confusing too if it popped up with a fail or unlucky when it didnt proc. Playing on up to 4x normal speed most people just look to see if that card has 1, 2 or 3 pop ups when scoring. But ut is a 1 in 20 chance so not super high odds to proc but can make a big difference if it does.

[mossy trellis]

The Legendary Tag- The Next Tarot Card In the Shop is the Soul Tarot Card

[vivid turtle]

This is a really minor and most likely insignificant suggestion, but I think adding “Flush Pair” or “Flush of a Kind” would be really cool
(If this is already in the game I’m gonna look like an idiot)

[mossy trellis]

There's the Flush House Already

[vivid turtle]

Oh, I didn’t mean that
I mean like, when you have two/three/four/five Kings (it could be any card, King is just an example) of the same suit too
It could be an extra multiplier

[mossy trellis]

Hm, that would be interesting, but that would require knowledge of deck manipulation

[vivid turtle]

That’s true, but hey, I think it could be a nice reward for those who do figure it out, like a little bonus for thinking outside the box

[static niche]

I was a bit underwhelmed when I managed to play 5 copies of the same card and didn't get a special hand too

But Flush Pair is too much imo

Flush 3 of a kind would be reasonable

[lyric lance]

Tag Suggestion: Skip this blind to reduce the Boss Blind chip target by 15% (Change for balance obviously)

[static niche]

Is workshop integration planned? It's always fun to have community involved in roguelikes

[slender ridge]

About tags, could be interesting to have a "better" bonus for skipping directly to the boss blind. Something like small tag and big tag. So if you have 1 in 4 chance for a special joker on skip to big blind, maybe you could have 1 in 3 for a special on skip directly to boss blind for example.

[static niche]

The tag system is brand new, and is way better than the old one. The old one was a guaranteed Gold Seal card if you skip directly to boss.

[static niche]

A "Deck tracker" would be nice to have. I feel like I need to memorize cards in deck much of the time, to help fish for certain hands.

[obsidian apex]

As a joker or voucher? By default I want it to be ambiguous to reward those that enjoy counting cards

[static niche]

I was thinking of it more as an optional feature

Like, have you tried Artifact? (The failed Dota 2 digital card game which was awesome)

Pressing f2/f3 has a deck tracker pop up for your deck/your opp's deck

Tracking cards gets really hard in erratic deck runs lol

I don't think it would really work as a joker/voucher, feels like buying a convenience

What could work as a joker/voucher would be a "See deck order", so that you can plan out the whole round

Like that Frozen Eye from slay the spire, I forget that relic's name

Relic's name was Frozen Eye. Well, makes sense lol.

[obsidian apex]

This is one of those design decisions that I know not everyone will be a fan of but I do really like the fact that counting cards is rewarded. And if you don't count cards, not knowing what is left in the deck turns into a risk/reward proposition. The target audience for this is roguelite players but because it's not a 'use cards to damage enemies' type game and more of a pure poker type game, people that like casino card games are also in the target audience.

So basically I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't, I'm sticking with my gut and keeping it unknown. I personally prefer that anyway

But, adding a voucher pair (maybe to replace magnets?) To see what you have played/(upgraded) the next 10 cards would be fun

[grand drum]

What about having your hand calculated before playing it? Obviously you can do it in your head, but it only wastes time? @obsidian apex

[lyric lance]

There are many factors that go into changing a possible score between clicking 'play hand' and scoring that hand. Misprint Joker, Lucky Cards, Space Joker. After a certain point, played hands can have so many steps it's wildly impractical to do anything in your head or with a calculator, so keeping it as an unknown is easier and ultimately more interesting as you slowly get an internal baromiter for if you're near your score requirements on any given round.

[grand drum]

space joker and misprint were things that i remembered, and you can just ignore them in calculation. lucky cards could be included in that. all of these things are rather unusual, should not be much of a problem in ignoring them

[vivid turtle]

Yeah you right, flush pair is kind of too much, but flush of a kind would rock

[static niche]

On that: I'd prefer a "See next 5 cards/(upgraded)10 cards instead" voucher. I'd feel bad if I had to buy a convenience just hoping to see an actual upgrade. You'd essentially buy the decktracker only to buy the see cards voucher, and there being a deck tracker "locked" behind a voucher update sounds a bit... meh.

It's not like that new blank voucher, that you knowingly buy nothing for some future reward. You buy something that makes your life easier for a run, that spoils you.

Then again, it might make some people think twice that "hey, i can actually track cards. I can't fish for four of a kind here, I've already discarded a 10. Perhaps I should track hands in my future runs manually."

Thus being a "teaching" voucher lol

[grand drum]

@obsidian apex can you please consider reverting this change

[static niche]

From steam discussions; something that showed your hand type, like a chat bubble over your hand would be a nice touch

Could just be like a mini-bar that goes up; like the hand strength bar some poker games have (Zynga Poker comes to mind)

[graceful violet]

I got an idea for a joker card (well technically not a joker) just a card called lucky 7, all number 7 cards get the property of lucky and increased chance to 2/5 dont know how good it is but in the demo i didn't saw any number 7 related stuff, the lucky number

[young folio]

Isnt that more slots than poker?

Also not sure if this a mids west thing but similar idea for unofficial hands.

Suggestion: gunmans/deadmans joker- gives a +4multi or +2 multi and 10 chips? For all A's and 8's played. (The deadman's hand in poker) 🤷‍♂️

[sturdy anvil]

I can totally see this kind of game expand to include other 52-deck card games (blackjack, palace, etc) as DLC. And jokers from different game or show series if that fits the overall vision (mecha joker for gurren laggen, for example)

[golden sequoia]

Like how Dead Cells has loads of weapons and other things from other games it would be cool to see cards from other games, like Slay the Spire

[vivid turtle]

An idea I had for a Joker card could be “Greedy Joker” (inspired from pot of greed) that would allow you to draw two more cards or increase your hand size by two
I know there’s a Joker that already does that, but it could be cool

[ruby socket]

This makes me think of boons that you get at the end of Inscyption, although im not sure if they're very applicable

[dusk gyro]

Would it be an idea to have the option to eliminate jokers from runs as you unlock more? Just a handful you can guarantee to not show up for the rest of the run

To counteract unlocks potentially making it harder to pull certain synergies

[young folio]

Thats part of the challenge, having lots of options just like in your deck means less certainty to get the cards you want even though some of them might benefit you in different ways. Makes you decide and problem solve and reroll hoping yiu get what you want or adapt your strategy to whatever synergies happen to appear 🤷‍♂️

[zinc gull]

Maybe the rarities of the jokers should be reworked, there are quite a few common jokers that are kinda op, while many rare jokers take both extra joker slots (sacrifices etc) and time (hands/rounds) to build up, making them harder to build around if found later in the game. Especially the legendary jokers are quite bad unless you have a deck built around them (only ones I've seen are the one that essentially requires the "destroy cards" tarot and the one that requires an overwhelming consistency of queens and kings).

I suggest giving the rarer jokers a bigger buff but also make more expensive to prevent being bought early. Maybe also a mechanic to increase the odds of finding rare cards in the shop. This would also make picking a rare joker over an editioned joker more viable which has been a complaint in the forums.

There is also a distinct lack of getting more chips per hand, save for about 5 (viable) jokers and/or a bunch of stone cards. This essentially means that late game will require either 4kind and up hands or stone hands, which limits many strategies (maybe intended?)

I would suggest making steel cards multiply the chips value instead of the multiplier, this would make them a lot more relevant since chips are so much harder to increase compared to multiplier, and will also make it more interesting to play a variety of hands instead of the "bonus high card stone" or "five of a kind" hands only.

[young folio]

I disagree personally, the chips are nice and all, but leveling hands helps that, bonus cards too, and then having like 600-800 chips x8,453 (lower end of some multi's ive seen) equals big chips. The steel cards can take your multi from 80-> 120 so having even 150-200 chips or even 80 chips x40 is alot more than you would get from just having like 30 more chips on one or 2 cards.

But the legends are pretty OP once you find them all. Definitely dont need to buff those. The x5 multi gains exponential increases really quick

#spoiler# 200×80(1.5)=200×120(x5)200×600(x5)=200×3,000. Assuming thats your base hand, many can get way above that and the holos, foils, polychrome help that growth gain exponentially.

[daring canopy]

I almost want to put it in #📜・bugs-old but... If we want to be true to the game of poker and the original deck of cards... The king of hearts needs to remove his mustache. Here is the history behind it: "He is the only one without a moustache. In 15th century French manufacturers assigned actual historical figures to each of the king card. King of hearts became Charles the Great, who most likely had moustache." "... He originally had one, but it was lost in the reproduction of the original design. A similar mistake caused his axe to become a sword. Ever wondered why the ace of spades' spade is larger and more ornate than the others?"

[lyric lance]

Suggestion: A Random Deck button on the start screen.

Suggestion: A Score Attack Mode. Basically the game as it is now, but if you fail to beat a Blind, you don't get a game over, you simply don't get any cash rewards. Then you progress as normal. After the 10th Boss Blind is Passed, there is 1 final shop and then you go up against "The House/The Dealer/The Leaderboard" Where you use your build as it is, to generate the highest score you can with your avalible hands/discards. Your score after this encounter is then submitted to a leaderboard. Locked collection items can not be unlocked in this mode, but it gives a little more freedom to tech into niche builds/not face the prospect of failure when playing in a more relaxed manner.

[zinc gull]

Suggestion: Cheat mode. So basically a mode where you can enable cheats in order to learn som intricate mechanics or troll and have fun. You get to toggle certain cheats such as being able to see the deck/history, extra cash, extra joker slots, immortal, dual decks (combining 2 decks, as in +1 hand AND +1 discard, or erratic deck with telescope etc.) and so on. This mode would not allow jokers that aren't unlocked yet nor will it progress towards progression. Should maybe be an unlockable game mode after beating the game once?

[young folio]

You mean like an endless sand box mode, build your own with jokers vouchers etc just to try builds?

[zinc gull]

Yeah exactly! but the cheats should be able to toggle individually so that players can adjust the challenge. Maybe make the cheats unlockable too...?

Suggestion: All time statistics. Since there are certain mechanics that rely on all time stats such as most used hand, tarot, planet, joker, and such there should be stats in the collection of how many times it's been used. That way I know for example which joker is my most used so I don't have to seed scum into getting the polychrome version for the unlock. Or figuring out how close another card is to overtake the most used slot. Either way it's also interesting to see some lifetime stats!
Edit I'm a dumb fuck and just found it's under highscore. Would still be fun to see all individual stats somewhere too though, such as how many bananas have I used 🍌

[static niche]

This will also be great for bug testing, and I assume that there is a dev version of it 😂

[lyric lance]

Joker Suggestion: The Hopper +3 Mult for each Blind Skipped this run.

[still isle]

pretty op

[thorn tulip]

nah looks good

[zinc gull]

You're just trying to make the 10 round run possible hahaha

[ruby socket]

Seems pretty fair to me, although it would be difficult to make it work whilst also getting money and new jokers

[zinc gull]

What if there was a mechanic rewarding players for overkill? such as extra gold if scored 2x, 3x or 4x the blind?

[obsidian apex]

I would be worried it would snowball out of control

[thorn tulip]

how about +5 gold when you kill a blind perfectly

[zinc gull]

Makes sense, just feels a bit dull when scoring 4x the blind, but still not having a reason to skip blinds cuz of stacking build

[obsidian apex]

What do you mean by stacking build?

[thorn tulip]

ride the bus and stuff

[obsidian apex]

Ah I see

[zinc gull]

builds that rely on playing many hands or rounds, including relying on planetarium or crystal ball

[obsidian apex]

Well I'd love to add many more viable tags to the game as well, more reasons to skip

If anyone has suggestions for those 👀
-Fill empty joker spaces with random tarot cards
-Gives 1 negative Tarot card
-$5 for every blind skipped this run
-Upgrade next poker hand played by 3 levels

[zinc gull]

Maybe there should be an extra rewarding tag if skipping both blinds in an ante as well

[thorn tulip]

Next shop is discounted (idk either -50% or -2$ or something)

The next time you trigger a boss ability, ignore it

[obsidian apex]

give 2 random tags

[thorn tulip]

Wheel of Fortune but as a 1/3 chance

[zinc gull]

get 4 tags instead of 2 if skipping both blinds

[thorn tulip]

3 should be enough

[lyric lance]

Tag Suggestion: increase chance of finding Uncommon/Rare/Holo/Foil etc by X% for the remainder of the run.

[zinc gull]

Get a tag for skipping the boss blind XD

[still isle]

what are yall talking bt

what are tags

[thorn tulip]

the stuff you get for skipping bosses

[still isle]

oh those things

[static niche]

Next shop has 1 extra slot

Duplicate next tag

Increase max interest by 1

Next blind, you may use this tag; choose a card to draw from your deck (Heart of the cards)

Manufacture a joker; it appears on the next shop

where manufacture works kinda like card creation does in Inscryption when you lose

(Choose a mult, choose a when triggers, choose a cost?)

Reduce next boss's value to beat by 10%

If you collect 3 of this tag, create a Soul card in your hand

If you collect 2 of this tag, create a Skip tag (Skip any blind, can only be used before your first hand is played in a blind)

These are some quick tag suggestions lol

[thorn tulip]

Duplicate a random joker in the shop

[still isle]

get every joker in the game(pretty sure it would soft lock you from getting any good hand)

or it would be the opposite

[static niche]

Have it be a small reference to blackjack too

Speaking of which, would be fun if there was a joker that was like "If both an Ace and a Jack is played, 1.5x)

[vivid turtle]

A voucher or collection of vouchers that allowed you some debt could be cool

[wheat sand]

I don't know how much of a nightmare it would be, but I think a joker that let you play six cards a round (like the opposite of the 4 for flushes/straights)

[grand drum]

Not gonna happen

[latent lance]

Too much new interactions and would create dozen of new bugs. it's cool concept, but that's all it will be sadly.

Tag idea: Create exact copy of 1 selected Joker, after beating Boss Blind, it gets destroyed.

Inspired by ephemeral from Legends of Runeterra

[vivid turtle]

Mind if I suggest a name?

[latent lance]

Be my guest

[vivid turtle]

Ethereal Joker

[latent lance]

name is great, but it isn't ethernal if it dies after beating boss XD

[vivid turtle]

I appreciate it

[tawny hill]

Is there any plan to have an "animation fast-forward" feature? Stone Joker interactions among other things can make for excruciatingly long turns even on 4x speed.

[lyric lance]

Something like a hold space-bar for 10x animation speed or something wouldn't hurt.

[still isle]

bros wanna speedrun it

[tawny hill]

Agreed! Proccing absurd amounts (10+ each) of stone jokers + Scary Faces + Sock and Buskins + a Pareidolia leads to hands that take several minutes each just with one stone card. I will make stone stronk. 🗿

[daring canopy]

Debating between the names of "Blackleg" and "Cardsharp" for this joker:

Variant A: [Uncommon] "You gain a pocket that hold two playing cards, There is a 1 in 2 chance "nothing happens"; Otherwise -1 hand and pocket gets shuffled into the deck" [The GUI would have to include a sleeved hand or a cheating device that shows the two cards stacked onto within the sleeve. A work around is to have normal cards be able to be put where jokers are.]

Variant B:[Common] You can now put playing cards in your Joker hand, Increase limit of Joker hand by 2, Only playing cards can be placed There is a 1 in 2 chance "nothing happens"; Otherwise -1 hand and playing cards from Joker hand gets shuffled into the deck"

Synapsis:
Utility of having a partial rigged hand at the start of next blind would be good but not game breaking. Helps get Four of a kind, Two Pair, Full House, Three of a kind. Synergizes with Gold edition or other cards with "In pocket" you choose.

Things I would change
[Variant A Only: Pocket cards are not affected by "In hand" effects and would change "Gold" Edition to have "Or in Pocket" and add to "Mime" "and in pocket"]. Variant A is preferred for the aesthetic of smuggling cards.]

[Variant B Only: Technically just extend in hand to "In the Joker's hand"]

Implementation requirements:
The behind the scene complexity might be a turn off for putting it in the game. Would require either adding in a new "Hand" field. The later option would be altering an existing hand to have two limited for playing cards only which may generate bugs.

Things to consider: There is a 1 in 2 chance "nothing happens"; Otherwise -1 hand and playing cards from Joker hand gets shuffled into the deck". [Felt like a balance thing]

[wheat sand]

A voucher that gives an extra slot only for planets/tarots?

might be too powerful

[tawny hill]

I think more joker slot manipulation mechanics would be really cool. It would probably be busted, but I love busted stuff.

Maybe a tag that would let you trade x number of negative jokers for an additional joker slot?

[wheat sand]

I also think a joker that gives you a bonus for a goal that rolls everytime you succeed the goal would be cool

like play X in Y

[vivid turtle]

A joker that unlocks when you get 70 or more cards in the deck, it could possibly give you a multiplier for every 5 cards you have in the deck

You could call the joker “The Hoarder”

[thorn tulip]

would like the option to go back to the shop after accidentially leaving it without buying a joker for stencil

[still isle]

buff ceremonial dagger make it so that its the original value instead of sell value or just buff it somehow

[lyric lance]

Joker Suggestion(s):
Right Handed Ceremonial Dagger: When shop is exited, destroy all Jokers to the right of this Joker and add sell value to it's Multi
Left Handed Ceremonial Dagger: When shop is exited, destroy all Jokers to the left of this Joker and add sell value to it's Multi
Hidden Combo: If Right and Left Ceremonial Daggers are facing each other, do not destroy any other jokers when the shop is exited. Instead, multiply the Mult value of LHCD and RHCD together and add the total to your Mult when scoring a hand against a blind.

[still isle]

eh

well hidden combo sounds a bit op but it depends on the the mult that they mult

[still isle]

btw its cards not jokers

tarot and planets are included

[daring canopy]

New Planet: Sun Sol: Five of a Kind: (Just like other planets but for Five of a Kind). [Enters the planetarium when you get your first Five of a kind] Removes itself from the planetarium when run is over (yes I know the sun isn't a planet but you got a better name for this card?)

[lyric lance]

might be confusing as there is a Sun Tarot card, perhaps a simple change to Sol or something similar yet different

[daring canopy]

True could just call it sol. It's just the hard problem of coming up with a name... like what others could we put it

[latent lance]

Add secret poker hand, Flush of a kind

5 same suit and rank cards

[zinc gull]

5 of a card and 4 of a card respectively? I also want this to be a higher ranked hand, but it should be decided wether the Four Fingers should be needed for the 4 of a card or not (in that case flush of a kind)

Suggestion:
An option do disable the right click to deselect.
It's very convenient if you have a mouse, but can get annoying if you're playing on trackpad

[latent lance]

Flush is when u have 5 cards of same suit, so idk if it would be good to add a hand with 4 cards that counts as flush + 4 of a kind

But I was kinda exited when I tried Flush of a kind

But nothing happened :/

[zinc gull]

yeah, but the Four Fingers joker would make a flush of a kind with 4 cards a possible hand, the question is: Would you want that as a possibility or reword it to 5 of a card instead?

[latent lance]

hmm

it's a good question

I don't think adding 4 of a kind + flush just for 1 Joker ineraction would be good idea

because all of the other hands u can achieve without Jokers

So I would just count it as Flush of a kind

To not complicate things

[obsidian apex]

Great idea, never considered it

[grand drum]

so as promised, balance opinion on the game after beating both the ng+3 and 10in10 challenge (aswell as some QoL things):
Overall chips distribution for base game blinds felt fair, NGs not so much, but thats their entire point.

Bosses: not sure how they are exactly categorized, but Mark feels like way too harsh and the Needle* is just easier version of Water. (Probably play style issue)
Wheel is a non-problem, since you can switch the order for the cards to suit, and get way too much info. Also 1/7 chance is too small imo.
Manacle is super easy for both start of the game and for later.
Arm is annoying, not sure if changing the rule to make it only count actual combo would fix it, since that would make Psychic into same thing.
Ante 10x bosses felt all fair for the 10x, just strange that Leaf is a harsher variant of other 2. Also should probably make it so deck is reordered back after beating Acorn.

Planets and tarots: i think the main problem with tarots being so strong is that most of them are good, no matter what you are doing. Something to make them more inline with each other - make all of the base planets give +1 additional multi.
Change Death to copy only a single card (and also change to copy leftmost card, for new player experience).
Chariot to work for 2 hands (one Flush/Full house and above, one Straight/Flush and below).
High Priestess change is needed aswell.

Decks: Red one is strictly worse than Blue (-money, -some damage, -potentional scaling for Bus etc), changing it to 2 shouldnt break anything, but make it a strong starter deck.
Braided and Checkered (and Silver to a degree) are worse versions of the other ones. Bumping checkered to 2+2 should make it a bit stronger Yellow. Silver to Enchanted joker should be fine. Dont like meta design on Braided, but i guess change to lvl 5 should be fin.
Foil (and maybe Holo) could see some number bumps.
After bunch of Black tests, my opinion that its just worse Polychrome. Maybe remove discard penalty?

Vouchers: most of them seem fine. Kinda sad that i prefer to completely ignore x2 Planets in the shop.
Dont like the meta on Pattern and Tesselation, but hey, they give me Death and Sock and buskin.

Tags: i am not sure if changing them for Small and Big blinds is correct way, but there should be changed something about them, since right now only few of them are actually worth skipping.
Random tags is not something i want as a reward from skipping blinds (and missing out on ~7 gold). Rare tag feels way too random, maybe change it to 1/2, so you can guarantee it with double odds? Random Foil or Polychrome card in shop with 1/4 / 1/5 chance is also not a great reward for skiping a blind.
Changing Enchanted card to go directly into the deck for free (as a additional space in shop) is an obvious change to me. Gold seal card should also go into separate spot.

Jokers: bunch need a rework, dont want to mention them.
Scholar was overbuffed, it has no rights to have +4 multi. Havent played with Bloodstone, but even for a rare its way too good now aswell.
Straights are harder to do than flushes in this game, therefor Crazy (and Order) mostly left out. But its canon in poker, so yeah.
Mad joker is not worth it with +15 multi. Early its too hard to have 4 of a kind and later you have better things mostly. +30 might be appropirate tbh.
Juggler and Troubadour can see numbers bumps to 2 and 4.
Misprint is too random to have a negative roll attached to it. Even 0 to 20 is still 10 on average, with a downside of failing completely.
Hack can probably go to 6 (MAYBE 7).
Pareidolia is too niche right now. Not sure about lore behind it, but maybe make it work as aces aswell?
Smeared is kinda too bad to be a rare.
Hanging chad could trigger the card +2 times, instead of +1 (AND make it possible to rearrange the order of cards in combo).
Onyx agate rework/ buff to odds + nerf to multi.
Drivers license bonus is too small, despite being somewhat easy to work for. @obsidian apex

[thorn tulip]

holy wall of text

[grand drum]

i can eat now

[mint token]

That’s some impressive feedback!

[grand drum]

Forgot to mention Credit card rework idea. Change it so negative money reduces your income, instead of ignoring it and bump the number on Credit card to something like -100$ limit

[wanton spade]

I think Smeared could just go down to uncommon or even common, it seems like something you would love early game but by the time you see it it's too late

[carmine lynx]

Could have it generate negative interest just by adding [current value * .05] to the pot

[wanton spade]

I think credit card having negative interest makes a lot of sense

[grand drum]

Uncommon was my suggestion, but discord message limit made it skip it. Just rarity change should be fine indeed

[carmine lynx]

Maybe that’s not a function of credit card, it’s just a function of interest. That way credit card doesn’t also have to have an additional ability that only functions when you’re in negatives.

Kind of interesting from a balance perspective, makes it hard to dig out the hole or offload the card and you have to fight to get back to positives or enable any of the money synergies

[grand drum]

The only other interaction would be Tooth boss, but you most likely will have enough money to not care about it triggering (assuming dev makes a change to make it work for cards in combo only)

[wanton spade]

Your Misprint suggestion reminds me of Gros Michel (+10 mult with downside) and makes me wonder if you'd have to move Misprint up to uncommon

[grand drum]

Misprint downside is worse than Michael downside

[carmine lynx]

Interest change potentially makes tooth way more dangerous and have to really consider what you want to play to protect your resources

Especially if thunk is going to nerf it to only cards PLAYED this helps give back a little bite

||So sorry that’s an awful pun||

[latent lance]

Suggestion: during round, clicking on your deck in top right corner shows you remaining cards in your deck (so you can estimate how likely you are to draw specific card/s for hand you want to play). Imo it should look like deck tab from run info. Also you could move the deck tab from run info to show up when u click your deck outside of the round.

[tawny hill]

Anybody raised thoughts about jokers that play with joker slot occupation mechanics?

For example: A 2-slot joker (could aesthetically be twice as wide too) that improves negative joker chance?

[latent lance]

great concept

there are so many ideas we can suggest

but I wonder how hard it would be to add them

[carmine lynx]

#💭・suggestions-old message thunk answered this one recently

[tawny hill]

Doesn't the house generally frown on counting cards though? /s

[latent lance]

Oh ok

ty

[young folio]

Pareolia is actually pretty good as is and borderline busted. Could be your play style or not having found a good setup with it. But i think it can stay

[latent lance]

Yesterday I had a run with Pareidolia, Sock and Buskin, Four Fingers, Stone Joker and good amount of stone cards

Really funny run

[grand drum]

negative jokers are way to scare to implement more

[latent lance]

Suggestion: U can always find same Joker in shop that u currently have, but with lower chance. When u buy same joker, the old one gets replaced. Make Ring Master Joker ability that u can buy multiple of same Joker.

Because Ring master for me feels so necessary but in late game I can't replace anything anymore

Because i would lose

instant

[grand drum]

there are only 2 jokers that work with it. and for the most part its just a minus slot (unless you have a very rare highroll of Scholar or Seeing double)

[young folio]

And which jokers are those? The faces give +20? And which other one?

[grand drum]

Sock and buskin

||faces trigger additional time||

[young folio]

||Faces give +20 works with pareolia as well as caino btw...||

Confirmed by local himself.

Sorry idk how to add the spoiler block

[grand drum]

ehh.... i dont want to include legendary in that argument. but sure, its the third one

[grand drum]

you can select the text and click on the right* most button on the tools bar

or type || before and after the text you want to spoiler

[young folio]

Got ya

Im on mobile so im not seeing the tools bar but thank you 🙂

[obsidian apex]

Thank you for all of this. Everything I see here is reasonable to change. I really appreciate the detailed feedback 🙂

[carmine lynx]

if you're on ios you can highlight the text - click the arrow all the way on the right that pops up and there should be an option to spoiler selected text as well

[grand drum]

Another thing for making “niche” jokers better would be to attach associated thing to them as a bonus (free Tower for Stone joker, free Planet card for Astronomer etc). Should be done per card and not just to all of them. Would be nightmare to word it tho.
Throwback can give you cards that you played as a last hand (combo or full) and make it Rare. Would also make sense for newer players to unlock him very fast and give them some excitement.
Also I assume that the base shop limit is going to 3 soon 🙂

[sonic agate]

Maybe add a joker that allows you to add your leftover discards to ur after the round cash or a joker that adds +1 to the leftover plays.

[obsidian apex]

I was brainstorming ideas for throwback earlier - I like that one. What if throwback locks the tags so they're the same every round? If you find a set of 2 good ones you can force them over and over

[grand drum]

I don’t think doing something that “minor” is worth attaching to tags as a joker right now tbh. Right now you would just lock onto the money and vouchers. Feels like kinda useless very minor for base game, only for skipping challenges.

[sonic agate]

it might be interesting for quick scaling.

[young folio]

Itd be better than keeping leftover cards to your next hand haha idk. Throwback definitely needs a buff but im not sure what would be good (without being overpowered) and still fit the name 🤔

[obsidian apex]

Was just thinking it'd also be nice to have something that synergizes with Tags

[sonic agate]

Maybe allows you to use a tag twice?

[thorn tulip]

get a random tag after beating a boss

[young folio]

Yeah definitely, maybe even give a chance to reroll tags once per blind? Like the boss effect reroll. Instead of keeping one just gives you a chance to reroll but its a gamble because they could be better but could be worse.

Just like the boss effect joker but for tags instead.

Not sure if thatd fit into throwback but itd be a decent idea.

Maybe throwback could have a similar effect but itd only reroll into tags youve already seen that run? @obsidian apex

Idk, i think it still comes to people wanting to min/ max payouts and having something that only does tags would be over looked? What about rerolls into a tag youve seen but also adds like 20-30 chips per hand?

I likd the rerolling tags youve seen because for newer players they might miss good tags the first few antes trying to get a sustainable run set up and this would give another chancr at those.

[zinc gull]

I would be more interested in being allowed to purchase a voucher that's been seen previously but skipped, or reroll voucher somehow. It's quite often an S-rank voucher appears on ante 1 or 2 before you have enough cash to buy them and still survive, might help new players get over the fomo of not being able to buy them

[grand drum]

you are able to get skipped vouchers. its just random

[mossy trellis]

So, about that Perkeo rework...

[lyric lance]

Suggestion: a Gauntlet Mode. Unlocks once you have all decks unlocked. Click Gauntlet in the main menu, you launch into a standard difficulty Red deck run. When you beat Boss Blind 10, it immediately starts a new run in blue deck, then yellow etc. Best the game with all decks to beat the Gauntlet

Obviously you can quit out and continue later, no need to do it all in one sitting

[young folio]

Thatd be awesome

[grand drum]

Reword idea:
Pattern - spawns most used tarot/planet from the current run.
Upgraded pattern - randomly spawns a copy of one of your jokers (copy might have to be non-edition).
Telescope/planetarium - make them spawn 3/5, instead of 2/4. Change the tag to 6

[obsidian apex]

I was thinking of something like this as a 'boss rush' mode, essentially the 10 round challenge but it would keep going forever.

There are probably a dozen modes I can add for high hour players but I would rather try and pick 1 or 2 of the most fun ones and get them working really well:

Endless (in the game, doesn't seem like people like this one all that much)

NG+ (in the game already, would like to add different modifiers per NG+ like ascension in STS)

10 round challenge (seemed like people liked the challenge)

Challenge runs, like starting with different sets of unsellable jokers and needing to win with them, start with a tiny deck, remove 1 random joker per round, etc

Running the Gauntlet (like you mentioned, or you need to win like 5 runs but every win eliminates the jokers and deck you used from the future runs)

Completionism metaprogress (ribbon for winning the game with each joker)

Daily seeded challenge run, who can get the highest score

I don't know though - would love to hear from the high hour players on challenges they find interesting after completing the game/collection

[lyric lance]

Challenge runs sound great. Start with sacrifical dagger is a simple enough idea, but I'm sure there's loads of creative ideas that could be come up with.

I think if the game did go early access, or even after the base 1.0 is ready, the list of possible late game content /mode additions that could be in a roadmap is extensive, giving a long life to the game

[grand drum]

i like NGs/Ascension system, and tbh i like current system for it.
10 round challenge for me wasnt super fun, but thats the thing that was left, that was possible to do.
challenge runs could be fun, with unsellable jokers, but still randomised other things

[thorn tulip]

Roll has (or is going to have) a weekly challenge mode where you have to get as many points as possible under certain rules/modifiers like:
you can't add any dice,
your starting dice are modified,
you start with more dice,
your final ranking is based on die quantity instead of points.
just a bunch of wacky stuff that can lead to interesting runs and keeps the game fresh

[lyric lance]

A Balatro challenge could be "How many Jokers can you sell in 1 run?" Shops offer 3 items as standard, but re-rolls are turned off.

[thorn tulip]

btw joker idea (rare): x2 mult, but this goes back to the (current) shop when you enter it so you have to buy it again

[thorn tulip]

or "how many cards can you add to your deck"

or „All cards/jokers of a specific suit are banned this game“

[lyric lance]

The Really Common Joker: +1 Mult, once purchased, this can reappear in the shop for +2, +3 etc, Mult stacks on repurchases

[ionic swift]

The meta-suggestion I have is to watch Ben Brode's talk on designing Marvel Snap. Complexity creep is a common problem in digital card games and I think he has a really great way of thinking of complexity. tl;dr You want to make sure that the complexity you're adding is paying off for the player or you might be making the game harder to understand and play without adding enough cool things that your players actually take advantage of. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjhsY2Zuo-c

It's fun to make new mechanics, etc. and not all of them will end up being super successful. If players aren't finding them fun and taking advantage of them, sometimes it's valuable to simplify, edit, and remove some things so you don't overload our minds. That gives you space to add new ideas that people might like better.

[lyric lance]

Deck Suggestion: Short Deck: 36 card deck, no 2/3/4/5s. As used in the popular short deck/6+ poker format

Game Variant/Deck Suggestion: Chinese Poker. You are dealt 13 cards, you have to make a 5 card hand, a 5 card hand and a 3 card hand for score. Drastically reduced discards/lower scores needed to beat blinds. Modelled after the popular Chinese Poker varient.

[lyric lance]

Joker Suggestion: Deuces Wild, 2s are classed as all ranks and suits when played, Self Destruct if deck contains >4 2s

[obsidian apex]

Anything in particular you have seen in the game that has started getting more complex? This has been a design paradigm that has been front of mind all throughout development, but I'll admit that the Tag update in particular was the first time I updated something for the tutorial that added to the complexity.
Early in development I was adding and removing crap like this all the time: enhanced cards had levels so you could stack upgrades, jokers could have foil AND Holo AND polychrome etc, you had a separate reroll resource that replenished every round, every round always had a planetarium and tarot reading. Every time I played with it and it was okay but I thought "is this really a better experience for a new player or will this just totally put people off". Most things I added I stripped out of the game as failed experiments and I'm very open to taking more stuff out if I think it'll make the game better. I'll give it a watch later

[sonic agate]

Maybe a joker that stops you from falling victim to the boss effect. Like stops you from playing 5 cards when you can't. Or like a double check

[lyric lance]

There's a joker that disables all boss blinds, which amounts to much the same thing.

[young folio]

Also the directors cut re-rolling the boss effect is similar but could give a better or worse effect. The joker negates all boss effects as if they dont exist.

I feel making sure you read the boss effect is part of the game and not that hard. From my experience they arent hard to follow if people slowed down just a second to re-check the effect that is always shown top left before playing any hand. Not that hard. But many times ive seen this in videos or streams people are basically speed running and focusing more on the hands that they dont pay attention to the boss blind effect in play and lose a hand because of it.

[thorn tulip]

reading is hard ok

[obsidian apex]

I'm excited to change a few of the joker effects in the upcoming update and watch videos/streams of people playing without reading their new effect 😈

[north pine]

👀

[young folio]

Evil but i love it haha. I always feel the same way though and see who actually reads the effects or not

[thorn tulip]

I always read the patchnotes so I don’t have to find it out in game

[lyric lance]

Challenge suggestion: 'Only Joker Can Judge(ment) Me': Start the run with a free Judgement Card. Every Shop Will Have with a Judgement Card in stock + 1 other planet/tarot/enhanced card. Jokers can not spawn in the shop.

[grand drum]

Death change? 🤗 right, jokers. Reading is hard

[sturdy anvil]

Challenge mode: randomize the joker effects so that you can’t just go off joker Knowledge you already have

[mint token]

probably an impossible challenge - 10 in 10 with every deck type

[thorn tulip]

no.

[wheat sand]

Are there any jokers that go into your deck when you buy them? Could be interesting design space

Acts as a wild card/does X when you draw it/etc.

[mint token]

not currently. there is a way to have foil cards in the deck but no jokers

[grand drum]

you should first try to win with black deck, its hard enough by itself

[wheat sand]

Some sort of Duel Blind where you "fight" a copy of your deck/jokers could be kind of cool

probably more effort than it's worth though

[keen wind]

I was thinking that the magic deck or crystal ball could use another element, like "Magic Event in X rounds" you get the tarot cards, but you might have "bad fortune" where you lose a joker slot, get an additional debuff, something similar, or good fortune, all cards are holo/foil/negative in shop at the end of a round.

it's so hard to choose a deck that's not magic as the tarot cards are so OP rn

tarot's are an absolute must have

needs something to make it more risky

[young folio]

Or other ways to obtain so the deck doesnt have as many advantages. Obviously the tarot and planet cards are the biggest factors right now in the sense that they are the only ways to modify or upgrade your actual deck. Trying to help hit your jokers more consistently.

[latent lance]

Or make Magic Deck have 50% chance of getting tarot reading at the round start instead of 100%

[thorn tulip]

how about making it have the tarot reading tag thing at bosses

[ionic swift]

Anything in particular you have seen in

[grand drum]

I’m not sure going for the harsh nerf on the voucher itself is a good idea, since shop still exist, and planets vs tarots (vouchers for them) problem won’t be fixed there, just keep that in mind

[mossy trellis]

The problem with Nerfing the Magic Deck is that in of b itself, it's not an auto win... It's very likely you'll brick on tarot card selection and have to start all over again.

This is especially true if you're going for 10 in 10

[obsidian apex]

So I'm having issues with this magic deck thing. Looks like the separate section for consumables isn't solving it like I thought it would, I think a nerf might be needed. I'm open to suggestions of other ways to change the whole tarot reading situation so crystal ball isn't as needed

Not a simple problem unfortunately

[wheat sand]

It seems like it's a delicate balance - if you were to change it to once per ante then it would probably be too weak

I wonder if part of it is that Tarot is the only real way to change the contents of your deck

(clearly the solution is to add all the minor arcana so that the chances of getting something useful from tarot reading goes down :P)

[grand drum]

one way to fix it would be to dilute its pool. they other - to nerf things in the pool. that would not fix the shop problem of planets being bad, but might help with the magic ball at the start meta

[wheat sand]

another option could be to make tarot reading a chance to proc