sokkermax siege arc

[valid saffron]

How about the last 2 hits into tarnisha lora zeni?

They felt very dicey and the second one in particular got extremely close

[proud robin]

Unrelated question but how do u think about tourney defenses

[alpine canopy]

create ur own thread for unrelated questions

[vital pendant]

[alpine canopy]

Woah goals

[valid saffron]

Nah your wr is the real goals

[vital pendant]

so real talk, jx doesn't really "think about" tourney defenses in the normal-person sense

he outsources them to me

the process is basically:

1. someone asks what we're running this season
2. jx goes "scarlet will handle it"
3. I get launched into the "defense mines" like a child laborer

then I spend the next 12 hours a day doing nothing but:

1. meticulously perfecting builds until they are so good they cannot lose to what i'm trying to beat
2. running tests for literal hours without breaks, ensuring that my piloting it flawless, so there is no risk for variance
3. watching the same wins over and over and analyzing why the defense isn't winning
4. taking notes like "ok but what if this unit is 2 speed faster, or has 4% more hp"
5. having increasingly delirious and unhinged conversations with myself ("this is the variant that will win. i'm not wrong. i know i'm not. this is it. i've perfected it.")

i don't stop until i've found the single most statistically disgusting, impossible, soul-crushing defense we can possibly run
then i present to jx like an offering, and he just goes "nice"

[valid saffron]

I love this so much

Rwang thank you for the unrelated question

[vital pendant]

Can you stop derailing h&a threads please

Yes sorry my bad

[valid saffron]

I’m telling the mods

@valid saffron

?sokkermax

[random owl]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/111620344564965376/1388970024797999174/image.png?ex=68658da3&is=68643c23&hm=2c8ef022c110e14a2651df1a44bbfa904b4263863a7066af41133dbf4e238d7b&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=248&height=63

[valid saffron]

[sage viper]

@vital pendant you yearn for the defense mines like the children do the mineral mines. Dont lie.

[leaden crown]

you can't use haegang into lora

lora doesn't apply any debuffs. so you only gain 20% atb

imagine how much speed you need to be tuned to a 20% booster, except you don't even have a spd lead

you'd have to do some crazy full swift/will team to make it work and i dont think anyone would have the runes for it

maybe you could do spd lead, like tomoe

but really just not worth it. dont haegang it

then instead of using triple fire against it, do 2 fire + 1 tank. like yeonhwa

[echo junco]

+1 on yeonhwa, shes an insane tank and I think she's really solid there vs zenitsu

[valid saffron]

Julie hit - this was scouted but swapped to swift. I put absolute topset on Bernard instead of cr4 but still got outsped. I generally don’t know how to hit these neph/maxi Lionel defenses if I can’t outspeed. Aoe def break, atk buff into a nuke - maybe some tractor windy/gyomei stuff? Feels slow and scary and worry about the +1 just getting deleted

This hit felt safe in my head but monkey got wiped turn1 after a couple procs from Sylvia and zeni and I got whittled down from there. Harmonia (or even platy?) was maybe better than racuni as jayke suggested last week but I haven’t had a chance to build her yet

[alpine canopy]

Haven’t looked at ur hits so idk if you used alrdy but u can cami belial Harmonia this

Can also use sekh over Harmonia

(Missed the part where u said u hadn’t built Harmonia yet)

But I even think sekh is better here

[alpine canopy]

Oh and just to be clear, the problem wasn’t that u used racuni over Harmonia/platy, it’s that Sylvia will pull Zeni to defbreak monkey

[alpine canopy]

i looked at the replay u used to scout, looks more like an unruned lionel and not a runeswap

something to keep in mind while scouting topset units is that ppl will swap their topsets for offense

obviously getting runeswapped on is a thing, but this was just a bad scout imo

[alpine canopy]

(also dont do this when we are in tourney)

[valid saffron]

Oh boy that’s embarrassing. 1am siege after shoveling snow all day moment

[alpine canopy]

Happens to the best

Also we do not send jlh into Irene..

[valid saffron]

This was that same sylvia zeni Irene def right?

What do you like better for this if sekh/harmonia cami Belial isn’t super reliable?

[alpine canopy]

It’s pretty reliable

But it can be trapped

So if ur in tourney vs strong guild they probably will

With my box I’d just skip it if I don’t have cami belial available

So I can’t really help u there

[valid saffron]

Is there a better +1 to make cami Belial more reliable here? With the support Belial I can do 2 cami Belial hits/siege

[alpine canopy]

not that i know of

i think its just sekh -> harmonia

and u should never run out of 4* dupes at ur stage

harmonia doesnt even need to be skilled

she wants to die

cuz one of the easiest loss cons

is irene proccing enough

to bag cami

while fire unit is still in bag

and the reason i think sekh is better is cuz she enables some easy wincons

like if ur able to s3 zeni

right before belial pops out

u just win on the spot

and healblock/defbreak is nice

and if she somehow lives its impossible for zeni to 1v3

but again, we want her to die

so we dont give her real runes

i just throw on some enhance runes

to buff cami

and sekh can use pretty much any stats

but 100res is nice if u can manage

[valid saffron]

Why do we want her to die?

[alpine canopy]

.

if this happens

cami will come out of bag with low hp

[vagrant topaz]

cami cant get bagged if shes the only unit

[alpine canopy]

and its possible for her to die

[valid saffron]

That makes sense thx

[sweet marsh]

You can run Mihyang Eshir +1 (Ideally Rigna here) and snipe the Neph

You race like +6

Just run a tankier Mihyang

[vagrant topaz]

thinking for my own gain here

nvm

not thinking again

[sweet marsh]

Otherwise I’d send maybe like Orphina or Yeonhwa with like Vero and Juno

[sage viper]

I am not sure I agree with the idea of using Sekhmet in this spot.

To be honest this is actually a much tougher defense than it seems.

Zeni has his S4, which means he can kill whatever is in the bag, including fire units.

And you like harmonia because she can pull the swaperoo and make someone die after Irene bags her. Sekh unfortunately can die pretty fast since you have to wait for Camilla to heal her.

[alpine canopy]

did you read the entire reasoning?

you want the fire unit to die lol

dead fire unit = 1 loss condition eliminated

[vagrant topaz]

theres a few ways you can die, most losses I think will come from either destroy zeni living long enough (sekh helps a lot more than harmonia with that loss con)

or

irene bagging your cami

(harmonia does nothing to prevent that, in fact her living longer is a bad thing for this loss con)

[echo junco]

i think harmonia tech seems neat and probably plays well but i can't agree with sekhmet, mostly because that unit is notorious for not doing her job even in content where you're not aiming for 100% consistency

[alpine canopy]

again, did you read the entire reasoning

xd

[vagrant topaz]

these fire units

[alpine canopy]

that comment makes

0 sense

[vagrant topaz]

arent meant to do things

everything they do are a bonus

[alpine canopy]

yeah like

[echo junco]

"you want the fire unit to die" and "healblock/defbreak"

many fire units can die, her defbreak/healblock aren't consistent

[alpine canopy]

her point is to die

[vagrant topaz]

ok so lets look at what you want

1. hp lead

2. fire unit

[echo junco]

harm is a 4* so if you want a consistent unit to just press one skill then explode then why not run her every time

[alpine canopy]

gonna let u deal with this guy

[vagrant topaz]

those 2 things basically let it come down to

kumar ashour harmonia sekhmet

[sage viper]

I'm not sure I get the reasoning behind "we want the fire unit to die." Why bring the unit at all if you just want it to die and it isn't a suicide unit?

[vagrant topaz]

1. hp lead

2. buffs your cami with stat sets

[alpine canopy]

ok but @sage viper @echo junco if ur gonna argue, please take the time to actually read what we are saying

[vagrant topaz]

3. a unit like sekh has her perks by just insta winning sometimes if u can time the reset

[echo junco]

i know the concept it's not an offense i just learned about yesterday

i just don't like the sekhmet option select compared to harmonia (or the premium other options listed)

[alpine canopy]

ur asking questions he answered 1 min ago?

[vagrant topaz]

theres other cases where fire unit cami belial is used

and sekhmet isnt good

but against this specific defense

I think it eliminates more loss cons than harmonia does

harmonia does

NOTHING

for this off

[sage viper]

I'm reading your argument and it's basically boiling down to "if sekh dies we don't care so we don't give her real runes but she also has win cons that require acc to land"

I understand that Cami comes out of the bag when Belial is dead

[alpine canopy]

?read

[vagrant topaz]

no one has a max res zeni

[echo junco]

also do we actually send cami belial +1 into zenitsu irene in the first place

i feel like i've seen people lose more than once doing exactly that and zenitsu getting an unfortunate amount of teamups lol

[sage viper]

I'm reading just fine

[vagrant topaz]

again, you can lose

this is a case of hitting it with what we have

and what we know

if we have to

its a good defense

[alpine canopy]

again, if you actually read the context you wouldnt ask this question

[echo junco]

you can leave the condescension at the door by the way

we don't need that

[alpine canopy]

i think arguing is good if you disagree, but not when u dont bother reading the context

its like creating a new hna thread and asking how to make a gbah team w.o reading the gbah guide

[sage viper]

Okay so let me get this straight:

You want Sekh on nothing runes because you don't care if she dies (basically runes to buff Cami)

But you also want 100 res

And you want Sekh to land S3 on Zeni

And you want her to die

[alpine canopy]

all the "points" u guys are trying to make have already been adressed further up

[echo junco]

oh i'm totally reading it fine and i feel like the win condition here doesn't even line up with how that defense works in the first place

[alpine canopy]

this goes for both harmonia and sekh

[sage viper]

Not really with Harm

[alpine canopy]

yeah

[sage viper]

Because with Harm you just need HP and Res and you're done

You dont' care if you land anything else

[alpine canopy]

no

because u want the fire unit to die

to eliminate a loss con

[sage viper]

You don't care if Harm dies or not with Harmonia.

[alpine canopy]

yeah

[sage viper]

Because you have sustain + swap

[alpine canopy]

no you dont

sustain isnt the problem

cami sustains fine

[echo junco]

i can sort of see the value after the fact but not for the reasons you posted

[alpine canopy]

problem is dragging the fight out enough

[vagrant topaz]

destroy is the problem

[alpine canopy]

to get destroyed bvy zeni

[vagrant topaz]

a not cami trapped zeni, not on destroy

will not be killing stuff

[echo junco]

yeah i guess my disconnect is at the cami belial into irene zenitsu part and not really with the lead part because i feel like regardless of lead you're playing with fire

but if it works it works i suppose

[alpine canopy]

3rd time, if u read the context you wouldnt be saying this :3

[echo junco]

i have read the full context

[vagrant topaz]

ur right its not safe

but we're over that

[echo junco]

if we're noting it's not a purely safe offense/it's a secondary team then i suppose taking chances with cami belial into a threat state + ignore nuke unit is fine, i won't push past that

[alpine canopy]

again, you can lose
this is a case of hitting it with what we have
and what we know
if we have to
its a good defense

[alpine canopy]

if u read the context, you would see that we noted this already!

[echo junco]

Lovi / DM for servicesRole icon, Advisers ✓ — 8:22
It’s pretty reliable
But it can be trapped
So if ur in tourney vs strong guild they probably will
With my box I’d just skip it if I don’t have cami belial available
So I can’t really help u there

I'm reading you also say it's pretty reliable, which throws me off - most of the time when people have reliable offenses they don't have relatively consistent loss conditions like this which was throwing me off

but the context has been cleared up

i have no further questions

[vagrant topaz]

Lets end it at:
Yes in a tourney setting this wouldnt be ideal, it can be trapped and has quite a few loss cons. However this offense should be fine most of the time, and in my opinion better than other things he would send. No offense is 100% and we shouldnt expect offenses to not be able to lose

it is pretty reliable, compared to what else there is to use

[vital pendant]

Can confirm he's not exaggerating.. the snow we got was fucking crazy

[vital pendant]

I actually disagree with everyone here and think nup is right I'm gonna be honest

You guys are all bozos

You do not want your fire unit to die

In fact, the best in slot unit is neither of these two. Sekhmet is fine though. Nothing wrong with her

I have always personally preferred harmonia and she is f2p accessible which is really nice

The loss con becomes more evident when the off is trapped and if your fire unit gets yeeted quickly you will very quickly find yourself in trouble

I like harmonia's s3 a lot here. The immunity also helps with cami surviving longer. Against most guilds you wont run into this problem. Cami Belial harmonia is fine. Run tanky 286 100 res Vio. Most people build Irene 85 acc but I still prefer 100 res since you can resist a random stun from zeni and harm already awakens res

[valid saffron]

Who is best in slot here then?

[alpine canopy]

secret tech, youll see when i use it

[valid saffron]

Would appreciate some help cooking a set of wgw defs. Box is in the pins. Unless this is stupid, I’d aim for 5 defs you have to cleave

[vagrant topaz]

show current set?

[valid saffron]

Relevant speed leads: neph, tarnisha, Seara, Moore, water twins, (others: tomoe, Chiwu, wind mk)

Haven’t built any since moving to skanks

[vagrant topaz]

:ummmm:

okay

[valid saffron]

They didn’t need them

I have the worst box and runes in the guild

[vagrant topaz]

neph x x
seara x x
moore x x
carc x x
tarn x x

[vagrant topaz]

CAP lovi has worse runes

[valid saffron]

Don’t think so but it’s close either way

Aoe strippers: Jeogun, Nora, triton, … byung? Chakra? Moore has strip

[alpine canopy]

[vagrant topaz]

am I being blind

or do u not own brita

[valid saffron]

I do

She’s there somewhere

[vagrant topaz]

okay Id for sure use

seara jeogun lami

carc eshir brita

wheres your lionel

[valid saffron]

I know

[vagrant topaz]

fuck it neph triton jaara?

im sure thats good enough

tarn liu mei ethna is not bad

[alpine canopy]

im redline skanks by far

unless ur not on swgt

[valid saffron]

I’m very close to redline

And you gap me on swift

[vagrant topaz]

OK I changed my mind

my proposal is

[strange glacier]

[vagrant topaz]

Seara jeogun lami
Carc eshir brita
chandra taranys jaara
tarnisha ethna liu mei
neph triton amber

[valid saffron]

No Chandra

[vagrant topaz]

oh

oops

[valid saffron]

Unless water twins or Moore can fill in there somewhat

[strange glacier]

I am…. Not a fan of the Nepth Amber

But the rest is ok

[vagrant topaz]

whats a neph defense without lionel

or jeogun

you can do moore monte wind zeni maybe

and neph triton jaara

[valid saffron]

Sounds reasonable to start with

Thanks I’ll go mess with builds

[vagrant topaz]

before you do that

you should think

how would I hit this (if I had all units)

how will the average player hit this tower

[valid saffron]

Lushen the tarnisha or Seara def probably

[vagrant topaz]

I think lushen the tarnisha is what a lot of people will do

[valid saffron]

Or speed lushen the neph

[strange glacier]

[vagrant topaz]

where would you place adriana, would you use cami somewhere?

[valid saffron]

Nothing screams leo from these 5

I would probably Adriana the seara?

Cami into carc eshir brita?

[vagrant topaz]

I think jsw uses leo against moore monte zeni

cami into carc eshir brita is what a lot of people will do too, u can trap it and probably win a lot

[strange glacier]

Nepth Triton Jaara

• Either swift or cleave trap

Moore Monte Zeni

• Destroy on the non Monte units, will on Monte.

Carc Eshir Brita

• Cami trap

Tarnisha Ethna Lm

• Honestly just throw efficient vio destroy on this with good acc

SJL

• Pick your favorite build

[valid saffron]

Cami trap is low cr destroy?

[strange glacier]

Yep

[valid saffron]

Thank you both!

[vagrant topaz]

@strange glacier do you go max res carc

[strange glacier]

If you have the stats sure

[echo junco]

SJL
Pick your favorite build
Lushen trap it lmao

[wicked yarrow]

perna, ur welcome

[sweet marsh]

Or Lucia

But Perna seems cool

[wicked yarrow]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1443404182231974071/1465891814094541046/image.png?ex=697ac1a3&is=69797023&hm=d41a2bd7ecb14eb51012663202accb6ab3db6d119c1d8dce8b917f0403a9d7c3&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1284&height=850

Is zeni AI on defense crazy or what

[sweet marsh]

Even if something comes out of bag it has like 50% hp

[valid saffron]

i think jayke meant fire unit comes out of bag low hp and zeni s4 deletes

[wicked yarrow]

Ah

I assume that much is clear

[sweet marsh]

Zeni has to not use s4 for 2 whole bag cycles tho

Which is an impossible challenge for Zeni ai

[wicked yarrow]

oh I've seen it happen

[sweet marsh]

Ye but like

It’s not common

Especially with Belial comps

Bc Zeni loves to cut/proc and use it on Belial

[wicked yarrow]

Where my content

[valid saffron]

Bunch of vultures. Can’t get a hit in. Were sitting on the sidelines of 1v1 trimming bases as they go back and forth

[valid saffron]

@vagrant topaz 3 def wins this cycle, thanks again for the help both of you

[strange glacier]

What won

[valid saffron]

Neph carc and tarn each got a win

[vagrant topaz]

ez

[glad igloo]

Interesting defenses

[valid saffron]

Please stop. If you want to read along and learn from the discussions you are free to do so. But the random comments are not helpful and the questions intended to help you instead of help me are not appropriate for this thread. You have your own thread for those

[glad igloo]

It’s not a random question?

[glad igloo]

If we go back to what you said you said 3 def wins

And I said interesting defenses

I have no idea why you are keeping smoke for no reason

But keep going I guess

Getting mad for 0 reason

I actually said that because I was able to make a defense from this thread

[valid saffron]

That’s a random comment, not a random question

[glad igloo]

How is it a random comment tho?

You said it got 3 defense wins

And I said interesting defense to that

[valid saffron]

I’m not mad but I do expect you to listen to clear instruction from the mod team. In this specific case it happens to be my thread but the same applies anywhere in the server

It’s random because it contributes nothing to the purpose of the thread and the #1047269577614164098 channel overall

[glad igloo]

Ok

[valid saffron]

I’m asking you to stop. Please listen

[glad igloo]

What does ez contribute to this post?

You are mad

You only said it to me

[valid saffron]

Last warning

[alpine canopy]

@glad igloo stop posting random msgs in hna threads please, if u wanna make friends u can go to https://discord.com/channels/109904961969586176/109904961969586176

[valid saffron]

Got hit a third time last night apparently, neph got another win and sjl got a win. 5 total across 3 hits, everything but the Moore got at least one win

[vagrant topaz]

op

[wicked yarrow]

Who did you match?

[valid saffron]

Asia guild called Aphrodite. No idea who they are or how strong, but happy to see some early returns on the defs

[wicked yarrow]

Ah they're lowkey pretty weak

Did you make everything anti bruiser?

Asia and EU usually just bruiser most of your defs because they're only used to outspeeding hp leads

[strange glacier]

Lower tier maybe

Upper tier ones definitely cleave a fair bit

[wicked yarrow]

Well maybe for eu

Asia is a bit weird, they dont have strong/fast accounts randomly spread out the way global does

[valid saffron]

@strange glacier follow up to skillup discussion. Just pulled a second Belial - worth devils? Have 9 left after skilling everything for wgb defs. Can also wait til balance patch but figured Belial is pretty evergreen. Also have a 3rd cami I could skill if that’s worthwhile

[strange glacier]

Is the cami s2 skilled

The secret

Is while Belial is a design mistake in that he’s an uninteracteable graveyard nuke he’s not actually the good unit in the teams he’s in

It’s cami

[valid saffron]

Third cami is completely unskilled

[leaden crown]

i would never say skilling up cami is a mistake, but both cami and belial are usable unskilled and its hard to imagine you dont' have better devil targets

the support belial is also usable

[valid saffron]

That’s probably fair

I was glad to have devils in reserve to build some priority units for siege/wgb defs

[strange glacier]

I personally

Always keep a lump of devils going into patches

Because there’s always a good chance a unit becomes really strong out of it so being able to play with it once the dust settles is nice

[vagrant topaz]

op

[valid saffron]

Just swap it in for triton on the neph jaara def yeah?

[strange glacier]

Ye

[valid saffron]

saw a couple towers of damage speed lead (seara/maxi) swift threat strip/booster/atk buffer (jeogun/lionel) lami/velaska and was at a loss for how to hit them. typically i would consider racing and cleaving or suicide comps into those comps but im worried about lacking damage to wipe the lami/velaska and then getting 1v3ed if im full committed to squishy damage stuff. they feel scary to bruiser - maybe could bruiser the seara stuff if i had cayde but i dont like the idea of trying to face tank atk buff seara bombs.

is this just above my pay grade or is there an angle i should be able to work out here? not looking for a solution as much as a nudge in the right direction if theres a solve thats feasible for me

[valid saffron]

Should add I did hit one of the Seara Jeogun velaska with Adriana Rigna and that was fine

And I use the Bernard Conrad water robo into Seara Jeogun lami without issue most of the time

So asking more about other permutations - the maxi stuff or the seara Lionel goth mommy

[strange glacier]

Uh it would depend the exact core

[valid saffron]

okay lets say maxi lionel velaska then. seems the scariest. and if that's above my pay grade we can work our way down from there

the jeogun stuff is easier to outspeed with adriana and snipe the lami/vela - but if mihyang cant secure a kill on open it still has plenty of ways to go wrong. and i only have one adri (plus topset is eh at tourney level)

[strange glacier]

Wanna know a secret

This defense runs out of gas really easily

And also is either tuned

Maxi -> velaska

And maxi doesn’t get attack buff

Or velaska -> maxi

And velaska s2 sees basically zero hp loss

[valid saffron]

so just tanky bruiser stuff for that one?

focus velaska first i imagine