Cybes is done (?) with #beginner-guides and would like some advice on how to move forward.

[gleaming hearth]

Check out the swarfarm linked in Beginner PvP and you’ll see where you need to be at for your carc

[finite nymph]

I see, needs way more tank and preferably 239 spd. I was basing the builds off this part from beginner PvP since carc is listed as damage dealer in the bruisering chart

[stone tusk]

that part is specifically for offense

i thought we were talking about def

[finite nymph]

My bad. I was planning on building for "standard rune set" and not swap. Separate rune sets is only for wgb, right?

Should I build my first carc for defense only?

[stone tusk]

separate rune sets is just for wgb defense

if you build a carc well enough for defense it'll be usable for offense too

[finite nymph]

I thought I would do a sanity-check / help me beat AD's thing. I've listed my current 10 AD's to hit. They are listed in reverse rating order, I usually hit the highest rated I can first and refresh if I feel the lowest is too low.
My "Tiana-deck" is: CP (L) Galleon Tiana Liesel. My only (reasonable) spd lead is Tyron.

My thoughts/assumptions:

1. I assume this Juno will outspeed (because much higher rating than me) my +177 Tiana, even if I used Tyrion Lead.
2. Same as (1) but Nora.
3. Poseidon too fast base for Tiana. Can't Lushen last 2.
4. If my lushen was better then maybe I'd hit this. I think the chance to glance makes this too risky though. I'm not sure if Tiana could outspd this. I will probably try to learn with Tyron (L) Galleon Tiana CP.
5. Draco to fast for Tiana. I assume I wouldn't kill enough with Lushen to be able to clean this up afterwards.
6. I would try to Tiana this.
7. Easy Tiana. Should I skip these because they offer no practice?
8. Should be easy with Tryon Tiana.
9. Easy Tiana. Should I skip these because they offer no practice?
10. Easy Tiana. Should I skip these because they offer no practice?

Am I missing something here?

[vale fox]

tyron tiana?

if you really need a spd lead to compete you can do psama tiana, or even shimitae tiana

[finite nymph]

These are my spd leads

[vale fox]

so you don't have shimi yet

[finite nymph]

correct

[vale fox]

you can try akkhamamir then

but tbh it's kind of niche, anyone who bother using fast stripper will use spd lead, so there's not much situation you'll use spd lead+tiana

tiana galleon is designed to deal with tanky bruiser ad (a reason why Karnal is out meta)

so most of the time if you spot a ad without spd lead, it's pretty likely tianable

do note that if you use akkhamamir and no deborah you'll use s2 instead of s3 to cc the enemy

[finite nymph]

I have gotten outsped by nora and juno a few times. They scare me a bit now, at least if opponent has >100 rating over me

[vale fox]

even clara can outspd you

[finite nymph]

I meant without lead

[vale fox]

if ppl use clara in siege def 99% they use her spd lead

[finite nymph]

Sure, that's why I didn't mention her

[vale fox]

but if you spot one without spd lead, go ahead slap your amir and nuke that

[vale fox]

same with nora juno or anyone else in the list

if you spot them without spd lead, slap amir in and nuke them

[finite nymph]

Aight

[vale fox]

however those situations are so rare

[finite nymph]

(6) is one of those right?

[vale fox]

in the list you provide there's a fucking 33% spd lead from vanessa, you'll get outspd

uhmm tiana galleon that is a bit risky, but yes

I'll do amir tiana galleon cp

[finite nymph]

If CP glances on juno I just lose though, right?

[vale fox]

oh no

not yet

if cp+amir both glance on juno, you'll lose

that means you have to glance 3-4 hit, which is somewhat unlikely

so you have a bright chance to win

just keep in mind these def are way rarer than pure tanky def

[finite nymph]

3: (1-0.5^3) = 0.875 to not glance
4: (1-0.5^4) = 0.9375 to not glance

[vale fox]

yep

[finite nymph]

Does my analysis seem correct on the rest of the above? Do I hit the "super weak" ones during week or try and find some actual challenging ones to learn a bit more?

[vale fox]

tldr 🙂

from what I see you are doing good

keep it up

[finite nymph]

my unruned AD is doing great btw, so thanks for that 🙂

[vale fox]

what's the ad again?

it's great that you only hitted 15 times

[vale fox]

seems great

can be even better with a stronger stripper

someone included in ?ad I mean

[finite nymph]

I guess I could summon the HoH Amuduat at some point. I think I'll prio my evo fodder on siege stuff in the meantime though

[vale fox]

sure

just 6* him level 40 is threatening enough

[stone tusk]

most of the time you shouldn't be using a speed lead with tiana teams

personally i'll still hit 33 lead + juno with no lead tiana. sometimes i get outsped but even then the chance of juno strip stunning tiana is very low. my tiana is on will

there just isn't really any great speed leads for tiana and they make the team significantly weaker to actually control and kill stuff

most of your thoughts are correct, although i'd still be careful with some of the ones you said were easy tiana

for example the wedjat moore - wedjat is usually swift and he's a booster

you don't need to skip anything at this point lol everything is still good practice and experience

yes it will seem like you have to skip a lot but that's just how arena works

there is no single offense that is capable of hitting most things

[finite nymph]

If juno is faster, the probability to get stunned is 0.9*0.25=22.5%, right?

I guess the probability of juno being faster on despair is pretty low, right?

[stone tusk]

nope

the probability of her using s2 is not 100%

you're also not accounting for res check on the strip

so it's more like .7 * .9 * .85 *.25 or something like that

and thats only if she outspeeds, which is not all the time either

[finite nymph]

So this juno would outspeed on despair with 85 acc as well

I guess I should try and get will on tiana.

[stone tusk]

depends on how much you lose with it

if you don't lose too much it's worth it

[finite nymph]

tbh, I'm not even sure I would kill most junos with CP S3 Liesel S3 Tiana S2 before she moves anyway

[stone tusk]

how is juno surviving liesel + tiana s2 lol

[finite nymph]

and if there's like a camilla byung leftover as well then I just lose

[finite nymph]

You keep telling me my runes are garbage. They are ^^

[stone tusk]

you definitely need skillups on at least cp and liesel

[finite nymph]

I think I've got enough evo fodder for 2 maybe 3 vampires. I do have 15 devils I could spend towards CP

I did mess up and spend the summoners way nat5 skillup thingy on tiana.

[stone tusk]

its not a big deal you would skill up tiana eventually anyway

but cp is higher priority for skillups than tiana

[finite nymph]

anything here that's higher than CP? I have mihyang fully skilled from the event, carc has 3/7 4/4, dhomie has S3 maxed (done the ?devilmon ones)

[stone tusk]

if you're working on a tiana team

there is no single best dd to go with tiana other than cp

so nothing could possibly be higher priority than cp

don't even need to see your box

[finite nymph]

That's fair. I am working on siege and ToALL as well. I guess devil CP for ToALL is great too.

[stone tusk]

for sure

[vale fox]

oh I also run zaiross cp 90% of the time, should I devil zaiross

had cp skilled up for toal usage

[finite nymph]

Am I going for 1/5 5/6 3/4 on CP or do I want the cd reduction as well?

[stone tusk]

you're going for 5/5 6/6 4/4

you keep asking about how to beat cami byung after they dont die from 1 round of attacks

that's your answer

[finite nymph]

Alright, cool!

[finite nymph]

I just found out you can check the previous record on opponents wgb defs. Is that mentioned somewhere in guides? It's gonna make parsing a lot faster.

[finite nymph]

How does this AD work?
Lionel is on a booster set, strips and boosts cookie, cookie debuffs and reduces atb, kaki hits with def break and atk buff, psama hits?
Is this lushenable? I assume it's too fast for Tiana?
I get that this specific ad is not important. I've just seen it once and I asusme it's not super common. I'm just trying to figure out how to figure out AD's I haven't seen before.

[vale fox]

it's a easily counterable defense, which is a bad defense

I'll lushen it, cleanup kaki and psama

the good ad are the one in ?ad, which negate both lushen and to some extent tiana galleon

[finite nymph]

To clarify: I didn't want to build this. Just beat it. I hadn't seen it before and didn't know what any of the mons did before reading them. I did try to lushen this. Cookie survived my Lushen and the rest couldn't clean up. I just need better runes I guess. Good to hear I "solved it" correctly though, thanks!

[vale fox]

How much does your lushen card hit?

[finite nymph]

11313 according to swop.

So not great

iirc I could get him to like 12500 somthing if I reruned, regemmed and regrinded. I'm mostly focusing on siege atm though and I don't have the mana

Also, I feel I use Lushen AO like maybe 1/15 as much as Tianagalleon

[vale fox]

You can test your Lushen AO on your own AD and give me the number

As you rank up you'll see more fast AD to prevent Tiana

So it's still good to have a Lushen

[finite nymph]

It's not one number

[stone tusk]

you dont need to care about the number

your lushen gets your best fat set for eternity end of discussion. you will always be using lushen

[finite nymph]

I am using lushen, he is on the best fat set I had runes leveled for when I built him

[stone tusk]

there was way more discussion than needed here

the answer is yes you lushen the ad and you cannot tiana it

[finite nymph]

I got that from the first reply. After that I was just answering Fam's questions.

[stone tusk]

yea my replies were partially for fam as well

[vale fox]

I got it

[vale fox]

I tested this offense myself and amir work as mini psama, as expected

but you probably need to skill him up to work reliably, so if you really want shimitae if you need that speed lead

[stone tusk]

i would never tiana that

[vale fox]

this is my own ad which has clara on desp, so I tiana it

yeah but in real situation tiana won't be good

[still forge]

Out of curiosity how would you Lushen this safely? I would be afraid to without mirinae

[stone tusk]

Are we talking about the same def? Psama kaki Lionel truffle?

[still forge]

oh no

I thought we were talking about clara vigor triana tesa

honestly I'd be afraid to lushen that even with mirinae

lol

[finite nymph]

I'm looking to build something to deal with this type of def and was thinking:
Megan (double nem will) > Clara > Julie/Kaki/CP
Is this a reasonable team? How fast does Megan need to be?

[cloud prism]

do you have tiana? if not id just skip this def

you could probably lushen it too if you have psama but that depends on the runes

this doesnt seem to be that good of a def either way

[stone tusk]

the answer here isn't very straightforward

first, you shouldn't be looking to build something to deal with this def. it's not a great def and you won't see it at all once you get higher

in general, yes you can use double nem will megan + lushen to hit most leo defs

however this one in particular is a bit tricky

lushen is not safe because of the laika

julie you cannot use because julie is water as well, so leo could hit her instead of megan

also, what is the purpose of the clara that you suggested?

if you run into minato you have to make sure that the first thing that touches him kills him

so you cannot have something like clara move before a julie or lushen

because minato will then get protected by shadow and your 2nd attack will do no damage to him

[still forge]

I'd still lushen this I think

I'd megan lushen miriam bale this

It's not perfect but I think the odds of losing here are very low

[stone tusk]

oh i didn't finish my thought but yes you should lushen this, and just make sure you have something else that's not water and multithits that can deal with the laika

[finite nymph]

I was mostly thinking against leo defs and this is the first one i found. My most used off is Tiana CP Galleon Liesel.
I do have a Sussano Kona Wayne Lushen AO as well. I've been looking to upgrade that as well. I have Seara, Shimate as leads. I have Kabilla, Orion, Hongyeon for boosting

My thought with Clara was to strip but then I forgot to put in something with def break

But that might be too many mons not doing enough

[cloud prism]

you have tiana for strip so that's moot anyways, clara works best as spd lead/aoe strip for defense while being fire to help counter against lushen offs

[finite nymph]

Isn't tiana stipping my ATK buff a problem?

[cloud prism]

huh? with tiana she goes first, galleon, cp/liesel to do dmg and cd pushback, with tiana nuke to clean up

[finite nymph]

Against Leo?

[cloud prism]

leo will hit your galleon so u can put him on will

to counter that

since hes wind and galleon is water

if u want to fight against leo based defs with tiana you need will on galleon

[finite nymph]

I was thinking my tiana would get cut, not against that def I realise but perhaps against others

[cloud prism]

tiana cant get cut because leo will target mons with elemental advantage, ie wind vs water

maybe you should give beginner pvp a read again. it specifically covers a section on monster targetting

[finite nymph]

I mean if that def had lika a Savannah or Triton

Or something like Megan Lucifer Lushen Leo

[cloud prism]

those units are built to be fast so youd never see those with leo

[cloud prism]

that one i cant comment bc ive never run into that def

[gleaming hearth]

I stay away from Leo luci defs

[stone tusk]

double nem will megan will work fine into that

[still forge]

you shouldn't, they're mega food

the tanky leo luci defs are a little bit different and will require some changes

i have megan mirian bale lushen as a preset

whenever i see one of these

leo luci defenses

i send it

if it's not like karnal stuff it wins simple and clean

[finite nymph]

How much spd does Stella need for 7 hits? I need her to be 245 to be tuned to my Megan (inc tower and Susano lead). Is that enough?

[stone tusk]

way more than enough

[finite nymph]

Do I rune her with some ehp or just pure damage after tuned?

[stone tusk]

if you haven't built those units yet though i would consider something else

what are you trying to hit?

[finite nymph]

Seara Orion + Rakhan/Perna/Masha/etc

I did try Malaka fran Triana but I couldn't kill stuff fast enough. 18% bomb dmg from artis

[stone tusk]

do you hae garo draco kahli built yet?

and what do you mean you can't kill stuff fast enough, do seara/orion not die to a bomb?

[finite nymph]

No Garo unfortunately

[finite nymph]

No, only did like 80% of their hp

[stone tusk]

atk buffed?

[finite nymph]

yes

[stone tusk]

something sounds not right show a replay next time

also you can't bomb masha or rakan

[finite nymph]

I thought they would be able to 3v1 after Seara and Orion is dead but maybe not

I'd also like something against Khmun Bastet Odin. I usually try Tesa Tiana +1 but I'd like to use tesa for other stuff if possible

[stone tusk]

save up for more tesas

tesa triana elucia is indeed the best

but you can use other fire monsters in place of tesa

[finite nymph]

Triana > Tiana?

Makes sense, seem a lot safer

[stone tusk]

wait i thought you typoed

you were actually using tiana?

[finite nymph]

Yeah, Odin dies before he gets to move with oblivion on him

[stone tusk]

wtf are you doing lol

you could be the one dying before getting to move

[finite nymph]

G1/P3 Things I guess

Do I skill up my first tesa before getting the 2nd? Does Theo get skillups somewhere in there?

[stone tusk]

if you are serious about siege you'll probably want to use some devils

tesa on offense is usable without skillups so yes you can consider getting a 2nd before fulling skilling up 1st

[finite nymph]

I'm thinking I need vero vs Nora, is there another counter? I tried killing the Geldnir first but that seems like a bad idea in hindsight. I feel the Triana didn't really do anything. The Theo was scary, is there some safe way to deal with him?

[stone tusk]

any passive cleanser is good into nora, so theres also tetra racuni and angela in addition to vero

leo makes dealing with theo a little safer but in general i'm willing to bet you just got massively outruned

[finite nymph]

Any thoughts on this?
I feel 3 was a bit shaky, Laika almost killed my Bolv after a OP bolv s3.
I'm not sure I needed Tesa for 2 and woul have liked to have him on 5.
5) I was lacking strip and oblivion here I think, just Eladriel and Lala wasn't enough. Is Tarnisha worth building or should I just make a 2nd Tesa?

[stone tusk]

all of these are pretty bad

i see no cleaves, and none of your bruiser comps follow smart AI manipulation strategies as discussed in #1048719420870107227

with the exception of the last one, but there you still use a not ideal wind tank

[finite nymph]

I wasn't confident I could cleave any of these. I've built
Galleon Bernard Julie
Sussano Kona Lushen
Dozer Copper Imesety
I don't have Garo, Cov, Leah or 2nd Verde but can build
Megan/Hongyeon + Kahli (is 2a)/Shren (is 2a)/Shaffron.

Current Swift sets:
Orion +201
Megan + 190 (haven't used yet, just put together)
Bernard +184
Imesety +184
Kona +183

My post-game analyis after your feedback:

1. Swap Tiana for a fire sup to ensure Sav always hits Rina
2. I was thinking that Riley could tank Perna as long as Tesa wasn't def broken and that Vero + Riley would keep that from being the case for most of the fight. Would windy + 2x water like tractor/Vigor + Lulu/Elucia work? If my calculations are correct then a vigor with <40% hp and def break has (150+230-260=120 points) and a full HP Windy is at 125 points from perna. So keeping both waters above 40% would guarantee perna hits Windy. Thinking more about it, what about Fire tank + Riley + water DD? Is the risk of perna killing Riley if Anavel lands def break too large?
3. Fire tank + 2x water
4. I was thinking vigor has enough HP to survive the seara bombs, is that not realistic? I think my kona is too slow to lushen this, I think Julie could kill Bastet and Juno but not sure if Galleon + Bernard would win vs seara.
5. Still not sure what to do here, I can't come up with a comp that would kill fast enough before Fen Yang destroys down windy. Best I can come up with is Tarnisha Windy Racuni. I am assuming I need oblivion to deal with FY and strip to be able to put it there. Another option could maybe be Tesa Windy Platy. I haven't built Tarnisha or Platy and don't know if they are worth it.

[stone tusk]

you can lushen def 4

copper dozer def 5

if you have praline (rather than megan) can use that on def 2

1. yes that's better

although still kinda dangerous because atk buff spd buff sav will hurt

julie is equal speed race here

2. the problem is that if def break lands on vero or tesa then they are getting 3v1'ed

windy + 2 water is the correct answer, perna will keep hitting windy even if anavel def breaks the water units

any sort of vigor elucia tetra tractor lulu etc will be good for water

3. the fedora should ahve been any tank that's not water here

4. vigor may survive 1 attack buffed bomb but surviving a single bomb doesn't mean you've won

if you want to tank bombs need rina or camilla, without those even tetra is better than vigor because that gives you better continued protection sustain after the intial bomb

5. something is wrong with your runes if feng is killing your windy through support

elad is a horrible choice as a wind tank here because his main use is to revive allies. your fire monsters are never dying here, you're basically never using the only thing elad is good for

malite is a good wind tank, even riley is better here

with double support like you have with khmun and lala you dont even need a super tank, i think skogul would have been good here too

you don't need oblivion to kill feng thats silly

just kill him normally

[finite nymph]

I meant the destroy runes on feng, not just normal damage

[stone tusk]

the khmun there was a good choice

shields are very good for the destroy war

[finite nymph]

Alright, thanks!

[finite nymph]

Am I safe to turn these to crystals? All are dupes.

I just remembered ?monsterrule is a thing. Are no nat5 dupes worth keeping?

[gaunt cosmos]

Its very hard to say, some clear worthy of keeping as dupes, but most of it is tied to siege if I am not mistaken. Bolverk for example is a perfect example of a siege unit id keep a dupe of but it would require a dupe amelia most likely aswell

Only way to really know is if you ask yourself "Do I ever feel like I need 1 more of this monster"

If yes? then keep it

[stone tusk]

yes keep the bolverk and crystal the other 3

[finite nymph]

Is there something I can do against this? My experience is Zen outspeeds tiana and then I'm screwed. I have will on Tiana but if galleon doesn't go first I don't have enough damage

[stone tusk]

you cannot tiana this

most popular counters would be leah and dot ao

[finite nymph]

Alright, I figured but I see it often enough that I thought I'd ask. Thanks.

[finite nymph]

I was thinking of building Kunite and teaming him with 2x water (Elicua, Vigor, Mihyang?)
How do I rune Kunite?
I was thinking:
239 spd. Hp focus (since he scales def himself and can be def broken). -water on left. Does S2 recovery work for him?
Is vamp (to trigger S3) a thing?

I keep seeing this and the regular MST on siege defs. Is it worth runing up my Megan and Stella for these? Is the AD dealt with differently? I was thinking
Sussano Megan Stella Julie for AO.

[finite nymph]

Does this still apply? I'm just basing my suggestion on swgt.io, not trying to shoehorn anything.

[stone tusk]

yea that's pretty good thinking. vio 239 tick, focus on hp not on def

vamp is not a thing. s2 recovery is fine, can also use acc on right side artis

left is always dependent on what team you use it against

[stone tusk]

don't do susano megan stella, use praline snipes

for siege that is

for ao you can use galleon, julie, light tank, +1 more aoe water dd

will on all the water units but not the light tank, then a shield set somewhere

[finite nymph]

Out of the listed snipers on "common siege cleave teams that aren't lushen" I have: Kahli2a, Shaffron, Shren2a. None are runed. I don't have praline. Do I try to bruiser, skip or build something else?

[stone tusk]

shaffron is not used. you might be confusing him with taru

you can use megan and just pray they are not on swift

but still use kahli, cov, shren, taru, etc instead of susano stella

[finite nymph]

Yup! I hadn't read their skills. Thanks.

[finite nymph]

I'm looking to build ?kylegbah before the next event to take better advantage of the boosters (and to use the Rune Set Fix tokens we got a while back). I feel like I'm missing something when doing the damage calc for Julie. She won't have ATK buff right? I use 6x fight sets for the calc.
I'm about 4 months post the creation of this thread, I do all the events, guild activities, 20+* ToALL, C2 arena, spend all my crystals on farming. I basically only farm giants and sr5. Would it be expected that this is not enough farm for the team?

[finite nymph]

I've googled a bit. Definetely need better runes.

[finite nymph]

This is the best I can do. (missing about 70 flat ATK and SPD gems/grinds atm)

[finite nymph]

nvm, seems I can get it to work! I vastly underrated how much of a difference +water on arti was doing. Sorry for the spam.

[cloud prism]

i think for julie, the artifacts matter a bit more because you need her to 1shot crystals with her s3, which means you need super good artifacts that have addls on it

[finite nymph]

How do I deal with Carc Miles Triana? I realised my misstake when I did the left team first and then tried with skogul but he took like 70% from Carc aftering getting def broken since he was lowest.
Would Windy Lulu Vigor work?

[finite nymph]

I finally got a Talia to pair with my Sabrina and would like to improve my Sr5 team. My current team fails less than 1% and run about 1m30s avarage.

1. How would I build twins to have them usable elsewhere as well? 120k ehp, 100%CR, rest damage? 15% S1 acc on Sabrina?
2. Is "Chloe Water twins" from beginner pvp still a reasonable team to build?
3. Is it worth adding the bale we got from the event? (how should he be built? standard raid dd?)
4. I want to build ?kylegbah as I noted a while back. Can I run that whomie in raids?

[stone tusk]

yes wind tank + 2 water is standard, can also use malite instead of windy and elucia instead of lulu

[stone tusk]

1. something like that yea. dont worry about acc. the only places you'll be using water twins for pve is rifts and raids

oh and i guess monster subjugation too, although thats same thing as rifts

2. it'll get less useful as you get higher but i think it is worth building a chloe so that you can use your pve water twins in lower levels of siege

3. you can try it, just put him in a team that has a lot of buffers

he would just be a standard dd yes

4. yes

dunno if it'll be ideal or not but you can

[finite nymph]

I just pulled a Leo. How does his passive work exactly? It "feels like":
Everyone gets set to (at most) Leos speed, he moves first.
2nd to move is the monster with highest spd outside leo.

Is their real spd just a tie breaker? SPD scaling mons won't get the spd scaling from their original spd right?

Also, how do I use him?
Is he useable for AO?
what about siege? Is it mostly against spd scaling mons? Any spd contesting?

[hollow moon]

You got the mechanics of his passive correct

He’s useable in AO with specific comps (see the Leo Christina team in the ?ao command). But clear speed matters for AO and most Leo comps aren’t particularly fast. Can use him with a slower tanky bruiser team for isa hits for example, but wouldn’t recommend that style team during rush

For siege, he’s most useful against speed scaling monsters, but anywhere you bring him he lets you get a significant stat advantage over the opponent. He basically cancels out all the stat investments put into speed, so if your team is built on 0 speed you can put all that stat investment into other stats instead

Generally siege Leo is built super tanky and you don’t worry about damage. In rta you need him to do more than just tank and passive, so he’s built bruiser

[lethal needle]

?ao

[stiff hedge]

this is not #bot-commands nor yr thread