Momentum

[gentle saffron]

It doesn’t take a lot of effort to state the obvious

Momentum is a scam

[frosty rapids]

eh Tovio 🤌

[gentle saffron]

For a minute I thought Hasan was generating an intelligent response from his Muscle Poopy Unit but alas

[soft sparrow]

shameless lmao

after the new year period

[latent basin]

just delete your messages and leave the server at this point lol

[soft sparrow]

they have 4 models already with no verifiable benchmarks

[warm stratus]

bruh the owner gave bunn credits for free and some other members too lmfao

[soft sparrow]

"we're busy shipping" yeah and not doing the first thing

[warm stratus]

why don't you guys benchmark it on ur own

[soft sparrow]

i'll not be ragebaited in 2026

you know that's not the issue because this thread has it all

[warm stratus]

its keeping openrouter alive

😂

[soft sparrow]

yeah buddy sure

[warm stratus]

its active in here even at this time

[hasty socket]

Momentum is holding the AI bubble from popping

[latent basin]

“We have benchmarked our models by examining the outputs. Using a testing method called Very Interesting Benchmark (E), or VIBEs, we can conclusively conclude that our models being superior is a clear conclusion.

Using our VIBE testing, our models are at least 5x more recommended by us.

As well, using our advanced AI’s insights, we strategically asked them LLMs directly what their specs are.

Our AI, being the best in the world, knows that:

• our models are 94% better then Claude Opus 4.5
• our models are 1000T parameters! (world first)
• our models run at a blazing speed of 10,000 tokens/second
• our pricing remains low - in fact, so low, we pay YOU to use it!”

(my momentum ai impression)

[warm stratus]

did they not score 25% on arc agi 2?

[soft sparrow]

can i have a dollar

[frosty rapids]

all we can do is wait for the benchmarks guys

[hasty socket]

I can probably score 90%+

[latent basin]

no i asked a momentum model and it says it scored 102%

[warm stratus]

https://www.kaggle.com/code/movementlabsai/arc-agi-2-kaggle-submission/

[warm stratus]

i'm sure you can do higher bro

[hasty socket]

Improper $ use is the first thing I see

[gentle saffron]

I dont want to share my IP with a grifter

[latent basin]

so hyped

[warm stratus]

but its public

and reproducible

+1

[latent basin]

“Our patented reselling other models technique and adding system prompts with answers to benchmarks results in a 3 trillion percent performance increase, and only uses 200k more thinking tokens!”

[latent basin]

“the owner of a product gave me free stuff anyways guys have you heard about this awesome product?”

[hasty socket]

Reproducible
API black box
Public set

[latent basin]

🤯

guys pls use momentum ai they paid me 20$ in api credits to become their sleeper agent 🥺 🥺 🥺 🥺

[hasty socket]

Ok lol, I gotta stop, I'm beating the 10th reincarnation of the horse at this point

[gentle saffron]

Same horse, different rider

[soft sparrow]

hi @warm stratus how is your holiday going?

[latent basin]

his holiday is going really well and going by quickly, you could even say it has some momentum 🤔

[warm stratus]

lol what does this even mean

[gentle saffron]

Hasan’s Hawk authentic response 🗣️

[hasty socket]

Ask Momentum

[warm stratus]

public set is how companies test their models

[warm stratus]

ok for you

[compact hawk]

@Tensor is this true

[latent basin]

I asked momentum how to revive the dead and now I accidentally brought back stalin pls help

it worked too well 😨

dead revival bench when?

momentum scores 100%

[warm stratus]

This means that given the same inputs and conditions, you'll get the exact same results every time. It's crucial for:

Scientific experiments and research
Machine learning model training
Software testing and debugging
Data processing pipelines 😂

[compact hawk]

1 momentrillion percent arc agi tomorrow

[gentle saffron]

Atp I’m wondering if he even knows what MPU is

[warm stratus]

can someone make a bot @momentum or sth

[latent basin]

I’ll do it for 100$ worth of glm momentum credits

[hasty socket]

@warm stratus is this true

[gentle saffron]

With their 10000T AI model I’m surprised it isn’t doing this already

[warm stratus]

kyle chill 🤓

[latent basin]

momentum is so good they used momentum to write the benchmarks they used to test momentum 😎

[warm stratus]

wow

look who has come

[latent basin]

for sure

[warm stratus]

welcome bro

🔥

[gentle saffron]

😂

[warm stratus]

christmas dinner

how was yours?

[hasty socket]

Where'd you get my name from lol

[latent basin]

would’ve been better if they used momentum to write the recipes

[gentle saffron]

He loaded the all seeing oracle on 200T MPU’s

[latent basin]

he asked momentum obviously

[warm stratus]

+1

[gentle saffron]

Words can not express how hard I laughed at this

[latent basin]

nooooo never

[warm stratus]

bro left his party to come here

😂

[gentle saffron]

Not true ❌

[compact hawk]

@momentum is this true

[latent basin]

momentum the company that showed up out of nowhere trains their multi trillion parameter models from scratch

[warm stratus]

craig is a real g

i gotta show him respect

if he says its a scam

[latent basin]

and don’t ask why they only started hiding reasoning after making a model that responds exactly like gpt 5

[warm stratus]

then it's a scam

i'm with @night depot on all points

[gentle saffron]

Its probably gpt 5.2 considering the shitty arc agi results

[latent basin]

personally I only ever have an opinion after momentum tells me what to think

[warm stratus]

its a scam, chapter closed.

[latent basin]

so real and true

[hasty socket]

S1 Momentum Bad Ending?

[warm stratus]

bad ending guys

[hasty socket]

Like if you cried

[latent basin]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1238315779787849848/1279083446366371900/caption-6.gif

[warm stratus]

this was one hell of a movie

[latent basin]

there’s a lot of activity in this thread… it kind of has some… momentum

[gentle saffron]

CEO of momentum labs announced his company is a scam.
Are Nvidia and Intel pulling out their 2000 quadrillion usd investments now?

[warm stratus]

gona miss this

what if all this is a paid marketing trick and you all are movementlabs agents kicking of threads again and again

[gentle saffron]

Dw I dont think anyone actually bought credits for your gpt proxied ai models

[hasty socket]

Pinky promise you won't post the Momentum 2.0 announcment here when it comes out?

[warm stratus]

i did not think of this

😂

[warm stratus]

pinky promise

[gentle saffron]

Hell have another sleeper agent do so

[latent basin]

who told you 😨 😨

[compact hawk]

yeah it's true I just got 20 $MMNTM

[latent basin]

I only got 19?

[gentle saffron]

The return of texmaxc

[warm stratus]

at this point you guys are like family now

[gentle saffron]

You are a scammer bro

#1434917422686801980 message

[compact hawk]

what can I say, I'm kind of a family... guy

[latent basin]

replace your family with momentum ai

[gentle saffron]

He admitted I guess we can re-pin the message

[warm stratus]

merry momentum everyone

[hasty socket]

Sorry, I don't celebrate that holiday

[latent basin]

every day is momentum day to me 🥹

I live and breathe momentum

[warm stratus]

gotta kick start the day with momentum

otherwise it's downhill

am i right ?

[latent basin]

I take 20m tokens of momentum in the morning and just before bed

[warm stratus]

Perfect dosage 😂

[hasty socket]

I don't like eating slop

[latent basin]

that’s just all llms!

[pearl linden]

Finally Full system prompt for Tensor
https://gist.github.com/BunnHack/c0f686e508a3b64d6004bf21cdcb51e3

[hasty socket]

That's one hell of a bloated prompt

[warm stratus]

this for 2 or 2.5?

[soft sparrow]

ABSOLUTE PROHIBITIOn

"with a touch of irreverent humor inspired by the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy and JARVIS from Iron Man." just use grok bro..

[warm stratus]

this looks like you made it ... any way we can see ourselves?

or just make a video for us to see your work

[gentle saffron]

Who is us bro

#1434917422686801980 message

[hasty socket]

I wonder what happens if I join lol

Did they remove you on the spot or did you say something?

[soft sparrow]

cool

"hey chat can you reduce this system prompt but keeping the core instructions?"

[hollow token]

Assuming it's a 'scam', aka a repackaged open source model, it does seem pretty damn performant and it's wicked fast, so what do you guys assume it is? Because if someone can recreate this and put it on Openrouter (or whereever) it might be a winner

This was done in maybe 2-3 minutes. Three turn prompt - initial prompt and then two more for fixes. Took a lot more than that with GLM 4.7 to get the same result. Gemini was faster than GLM but not as fast as whatever Tensor is

Prompt, for those who want to test themselves:

Core Objective:
Create a web application that uses the webcam as the background and draws real-time, neon wireframe overlays directly on the user's face and hands to demonstrate how computer vision tracking works.

Technical Requirements:

Dependencies (via CDN only):
Three.js (for rendering the high-performance line overlays).
MediaPipe Face Mesh (for facial landmark detection).
MediaPipe Hands (for hand landmark detection).
No build steps. Pure HTML/JS.
Visuals (The AR Layer):
The webcam video feed should be visible as the background (not hidden).
Face Overlay: Render the full Face Mesh tessellation (triangles) using a THREE.LineSegments geometry with a Neon Cyan color.
Hand Overlay: Render the Hand skeleton (bones and joints) using THREE.LineSegments with a Neon Magenta color.
Crucial: You must project the 3D MediaPipe landmarks onto the 2D screen space so the lines align perfectly with the user's video feed.
Interaction & Logic:
Run both Face Mesh and Hands solutions simultaneously in the same frame loop.
Interaction: If the user brings a hand close to their face (e.g., within a certain distance threshold), draw a dynamic "data link" (a glowing line) connecting the wrist to the center of the face.
UI/HUD:
Overlay a Sci-Fi HUD (HTML/CSS) that displays real-time tracking metrics:
"Faces Detected": [Count]
"Hands Detected": [Count]
"Active Landmarks": [Total Count]
Style it to look like a terminator/vision interface.
Performance:
Ensure the canvas overlays the video perfectly using CSS positioning.
Handle window resizing correctly to prevent misalignment of the wireframes.
Deliverable:
Provide the complete, functional code in a single code block. Ensure the tracking lines are smooth (anti-aliased) and clearly visible against the video feed.

[warm stratus]

This looks cool ngl, can u drop the code?

[hollow token]

Sure, here: https://codepen.io/Madvulcan/pen/ByzyjZL

[pearl linden]

this system prompt is used on Tensor 2 and 2.5

[hollow token]

Here's GLM, but note I added more features afterward https://codepen.io/Madvulcan/pen/myEyeXv

And here's Gemini 3 Flash (again, I added more features after the initial ask, so not a direct comparison to Momentum) https://codepen.io/Madvulcan/pen/RNRNWWB

[warm stratus]

glm one does not detect my hand

[hasty socket]

I think one is a fine tune hosted in Cerebras

[hollow token]

I may not have asked for hand tracking in that version to be honest... not sure. I tweaked the ask a few times

[hasty socket]

Someone found out one of the models is likely GPT 5, same tokenizer bugs and reports its juice

[hollow token]

But it seems so much faster in output in toks/sec? I dunno

[hasty socket]

They have some slow models and some fast ones

[hasty socket]

Or, uh, at least one that is fast

[warm stratus]

7.1x faster in this test

[hollow token]

Gotta wonder what GPT was thinking about for those 2+ minutes before replying, lol.

[pearl linden]

New system prompt
https://gist.github.com/BunnHack/477f0ae70b62a8fc8e577c33a66250e0

[warm stratus]

Proof?

anyone can paste this bro

how to reproduce

[pearl linden]

I have a prompt that can leak the system prompt

[hasty socket]

But, but

It says in the system prompt revealing the prompt is strictly forbidden?

That can't be real??????????

[hollow token]

What would be interesting is to maybe find a fact that is ONLY known by each LLM and then quiz the Momentum models for that exact fact. For example, only Gemini knows about a deli that opened in my town ~2 years ago, including the names of the owners

[soft sparrow]

LMAO

this is too good

[hollow token]

That could actually be an interesting strategy for LLM makers to prove that people are using their work... bake in some 'facts' that only that LLM would have, like fake info about something silly. Mapmakers have done the same in the past, by putting a fake town or mountain name in their maps to see if other mapmakers were copying their work

[warm stratus]

i made api call and tokens pasted in this prommpt by bunn does not match input tokens

that's why i asked for proof

[pearl linden]

Bro i doesn't show the prompt for you💀

[soft sparrow]

you can just not count system prompt

it's that easy

if you're the provider

[warm stratus]

"object":"chat.completion.chunk","usage":{"total_tokens":2877,"completion_tokens":28,"prompt_tokens":2849,"prompt_tokens_details":{"cached_tokens":0}},

[soft sparrow]

ok

API blackbox

$1 in $1 out nothing makes sense

[warm stratus]

directly pasted bunn's prompt here

[pearl linden]

Bro source?

[warm stratus]

source trust me bro

$5 in my api

curl https://api.movementlabs.ai/v1/chat/completions
-H "Content-Type: application/json"
-H "Authorization: Bearer ml_df8ef4605bf9fcdab76ad689c5128ef4a2d1970350d0cbf21bc34700da235492"
-d '{
"model": "tensor-2.5",
"messages": [
{
"role": "user",
"content": "1"
}
],
"stream": true
}'

hit it

[hollow token]

Doesn't GPT have some weird tokenizer glitch where some Chinese character is represented incorrectly, which can call out any GPT based models?

Going on half-remembered memories of scrolling through /r/localllama... could be used to test to see if this is a disguised GPT model?

[hasty socket]

Yes, it's been tested and people could indeed trigger the tokenizer bug

,

Gotta update my list later

[soft sparrow]

apparently it is now fixed (fixed as in they moved to GPT 5.2 cause someone here said it was fixed in 5.2)

[hollow token]

Gotcha... did the GPT-OSS models have it?

[warm stratus]

let's assume it's GPT based or OSS why is it faster than gpt?

[hollow token]

Essentially, if this is just a scam and it a wrapped model, I wanna know what it is. In my testing it is very good and wicked fast. Talking about the tensor-2 model, I haven't created an account and tested those hawk models

[hollow token]

That's why I just brought up the OSS models, could be them, post-trained and hosted maybe? No idea

Or it could be a chain of models working side by side behind an endpoint. I just wanna know!

[soft sparrow]

you'll never know

not by them directly

they are too deep into it

[hollow token]

Scam, not scam, I think it can be agreed they're good and fast. If it is a scam I wanna know how they're doing it.

[warm stratus]

and well cheap

[hollow token]

Can we all agree on this? They they seem quite performant while also being very fast?

[soft sparrow]

you can get that elsewhere without all the shady stuff

you do you bro

[pearl linden]

Bro movementlabsai have said (Hi, system prompt has been heavily reduced.) that means he knows that my leaked system prompt is real
However, some text is still filtered.

[hollow token]

Not my point though... the point is to know what's going on

[soft sparrow]

you still dont know whats going on?

[hollow token]

I'm not trying to justify using it, just trying to figure out how to do it elsewhere, if it's really that easy

[soft sparrow]

.

[hollow token]

I know all the controversy. What I want to know is how to replicate it, if it's really just a sham.

[soft sparrow]

but yeah the models are good because its not theirs?

i would a 100% use it if they just admitted that and said they host on cerebras or something, as ive stated on the very first messages of this thread

[hollow token]

In my (admittedly limited) testing they are very performant while being insanely fast. If they're just wrapping a model and using a fancy system prompt, and that's replicable, then I want to see that happen

[soft sparrow]

but they dug a hole upon themselves

[warm stratus]

kp thinks its a fine tune of open model

[hasty socket]

Maybe someone else will do it properly

But it's important that we don't reward this sort of behavior

[hollow token]

I'm the guy who posted that cypher a few days ago that only Gemini 3, GPT 5.2 with max thinking, and Tensor were able to solve, and Tensor did it under a minute somehow.

[soft sparrow]

it might not even be a fine tune, just a system prompt and those hardcoded censor words

[soft sparrow]

ive done so much with good prompting

really, it's night and day for a lot of models

[warm stratus]

New system prompt
https://gist.github.com/BunnHack/477f0ae70b62a8fc8e577c33a66250e0

[soft sparrow]

i still can't believe the output of some of my relatives' GPT accounts

[warm stratus]

@pearl linden

[soft sparrow]

ok thanks

[hollow token]

I don't know what sort of clever prompt will enable a model to solve a cypher like the one I posted quicker

[soft sparrow]

also, it is using tools

[pearl linden]

❓

[soft sparrow]

every model could solve that with tools, people have posted here the outputs

[warm stratus]

sorry giving u credit for the prompt ^^^^

[hollow token]

If using tools on the backend is the secret, then maybe that's that, but no, none of the models I tested actually used tools to solve the cypher. They had to figure out the nature of the cypher first and THEN build a tool for the decoding.

Even Gemini and GPT

[warm stratus]

Was this a known cypher?

[hollow token]

In fact in my test Gemini used Python to try to decode it and failed, but eventually solved it through thinking

[hasty socket]

Also keep in mind that a couple tasks are not representative of a model's general capability

[hollow token]

No, I found it in a 1960's comic book of all places. I'll try to dig up the pics

[soft sparrow]

friend, there's a lot of instances where they have used other models and people discovered that. they have no credibility, they could be or could not. they're not reliable

[hollow token]

Well to be more accurate, the form of cypher is known, but it's variable in how its applied. Give me a min

[pearl linden]

There have no benchmark 😳

[hollow token]

I am not saying they are credible. I am saying I want to know what they're doing that seems to work well

[soft sparrow]

also LLMs are non deterministic. it could solve once and not solve twice

[warm stratus]

Benchmarks are irrelevant after gpt 5.2 🥹

[hollow token]

This was the cypher

I only sent this part of the text

Excluding the hints, etc

[warm stratus]

That's the thing, it got people triggered because they cant believe it.

[soft sparrow]

i can't believe it is so good!

[pearl linden]

YepYep,Why ai company still need release the s* benchmark

[soft sparrow]

no model can be as good as momentum theres no way

[hollow token]

I am not trying to say they are genuine. I am trying to figure out whatever they are doing, even if its a wrapper of something else, because it DOES seem good and very fast. And that's valuable. And if they can do that then so can anyone else. So let's figure this shit out

[warm stratus]

[@bunn](#1434917422686801980 message)

you posted this

#1434917422686801980 message

[pearl linden]

I mean benchmark

[hasty socket]

It's hard for us to tell you for sure, really

[hollow token]

Can we at least admit that there IS something here going on worth investigating?

[hasty socket]

No

[hollow token]

Like, yeah maybe they're faking it, but how?

I wanna peel back the curtain

[compact hawk]

couldn't they just be using gpt-5 on priority high?

[hollow token]

Output is waaaay too fast for that

At least in my testing

[pearl linden]

What model

[warm stratus]

5.2

[hasty socket]

couldn't they just be using gpt-5 on priority high?

Do you know what's priority?

[soft sparrow]

5.2 is for the hawk model

[warm stratus]

@hollow token https://api.websim.com/blobs/019b562a-bba7-7434-90e8-35537929d3ef.mp4

[soft sparrow]

not tensor

[hollow token]

Yeah that's what I mean, that's like Flash Lite speeds or some shit

Okay... so... a few comments up I mentioned that only Gemini 3, of all AIs I've tested, knows about a deli that opened in my hometown 2 years ago. So does 'Tensor 2'. So if it is a mystery model it might be that one. Neither Claude nor GPT 5.2 can answer this

Its description is spot on as well. This is the deli v=ffab1a7588f48b7f&output=search&q=potchke%27s+deli&source=lnms&fbs=AIIjpHxU7SXXniUZfeShr2fp4giZ1Y6MJ25_tmWITc7uy4KIehZSPZtq-ywdxHK81a_1UWlQN69SKmEwbxp_WUDdFSSoWKnLZsmnMG2zzoBYr4Zou0Y_LSWjzpMjpsyeue4OItqQM5v3zXfSkAQCKDBS83Xc6Gd04_Piecajc4R8WiZmn3yB-vUOkrT--ubnbztl3HwWgJLeYCs3EHtIp2xrkW42IgfmcQ&entry=mc&ved=1t:200715&ictx=111

So, I thought maybe it's doing a websearch on the backend, but no.

Based on this, if it is a wrapper of another model, I'm saying it's Gemini.

But then it fails at recognizing an AI generation of an actor that Gemini itself created...

While Gemini itself succeeds.

In short: I have no idea what the fuck is going on.

(The actor is indeed Patrick McGoohan, but it is an AI generated image of him and not an actual photo).

[warm stratus]

https://streamable.com/f34tpn why did gemini 3 flash give me entire less chapter?

[warm stratus]

and this was not gemini 3 flash thinking even.

[hasty socket]

LMArena as a frontend

https://tenor.com/view/sleeping-dog-gif-27543784

[soft sparrow]

i don't work with perhaps

[hollow token]

That has been on my mind, too, the only thing is the insane speeds, and you can't do that by just routing to existing endpoints that we all use day to day

So then people are like, 'it's just an open model with a fancy prompt hosted on Cerberas' or whatever, but that doesn't explain the world knowledge like I just posted above, in which case it's the only model other than Gemini that knew about a new deli in my town, and yet failed a web search immediately after... (meaning I doubt it used web search to answer)

I frankly have no idea what is going on

Maybe during it's hidden 'thinking' phase it's consulting other models, and then using a fast one to output the results. At present that's what makes the most sense to my mind (when excluding the idea that it's just a frontier model)

But even that explanation feels incomplete to me, because it has spat out high quality code even faster than the other top tier ones

[hasty socket]

It looks like a background web search

Try some other specific questions

My guess is that it also tried a search for the weather one but the results were bad, like in this one

[hollow token]

Failed to answer a question that is easily searchable, so I am doubting web search on the backend

Actual search-backed answer by Gemini

(gemini within google search I mean)

If it did a backend web search to identify Potchke's Deli in my earlier example it could have done so for the music festival.

Okay hold up. Both Gemini and Tensor were wrong in the exact same way. They both got the surname of one of the creators of this deli wrong. Her last name is 'Williams'. I actually know her personally, lol

So these are the only two models I have tested that know that this deli even exists, and they both get a specific detail wrong about it, when everything else is correct.

That says to me that this model MUST be gemini, and the only thing holding me back is that it seems way faster than even Gemini itself

It's just so oddly specific that the models both described the deli perfectly, and the only error was the surname of one of the of the co-owners.

[warm stratus]

It’s going to remain a mystery especially when it comes to coding this model is top of my list

[hollow token]

And reminder, this deli is only three years old, and I'm shocked that ANY ai model has its existense, much less its owner data in in its training data. Wild

[warm stratus]

Movementlabs is new so maybe they got fresh data?

Three years is a long time for the ai space

[warm stratus]

Or maybe it’s a really good deli 😂

[hollow token]

For iteration, sure, but many frontier models still have a knowledge cutoff date from a few years ago

[warm stratus]

Mlabs is the eighth wonder of the world

[warm stratus]

Hang on it’s showing two different surnames

[hollow token]

Yes, both Gemini and Momentum got them wrong. That's what I'm emphasizing. Her actual surname is Williams

[warm stratus]

Willmann and San jose

So left or right is movement?

[hollow token]

That could be construed as evidence that they are the same model

Left was Gemini, right was Tensor

[warm stratus]

Still the speed is too fast even for Gemini

[hollow token]

The both got one founder's name right (Lawrence Farber) but they both flubbed Emily's surname

[warm stratus]

And in some of my tests the coding ability is better than G3

[hollow token]

I know. That's why I am confused about what is going on

[warm stratus]

Also if it was Gemini wouldn’t the output be near identical?

[hollow token]

Ehh, temperature, etc

[warm stratus]

True true

[hollow token]

And baked in system prompts. Wouldn't expect identical

But they did flub the EXACT same way

[warm stratus]

It’s better than g3 pro and flash at coding

In my tests

[hasty socket]

Just we're on the same page, you know what that account is, right?

[hollow token]

What account?

[hasty socket]

R8

[warm stratus]

He’s got personal issues with me

From LMarena discord

[hollow token]

I don't know who any of you assholes are, lol

[warm stratus]

His points were crushed by me lol

[warm stratus]

Stop being a bitch and let someone actually investigate

[hasty socket]

https://tenor.com/view/shh-cats-gif-10955612

[warm stratus]

Madvulcan coming with some good stuff here

[hollow token]

If y'all have some feud, keep me out of it, I'm just here to investigate

[hollow token]

https://tenor.com/view/claudio-keanu-iliade-gif-8593089299268767402

[hasty socket]

This account joined on the 18th in LMArena and from that day onwards, all their messages were to promote/defend Momentum
Then, caught here posting a video that says "Hello, Hasan" (name of one of the company founders) with the same PC setup, the excuse is "bruh the owner gave bunn credits for free and some other members too lmfao"

[warm stratus]

Mac cursor 😂😂😂

Wait lemme find that message

#1434917422686801980 message

[hollow token]

Okay, so, I don't care about the drama. I just wanna figure out whatever model momentum is serving and how they're doing it.

[hasty socket]

I'm sure you'll have your unbiased answer talking to R8, you're welcome

[hollow token]

No I'll get it from testing, not talking... but I want feedback on methods

Keep me out of whatever feud you guys have

[warm stratus]

Maybe try, coding test side by side

A simple code task rather than complex

[hasty socket]

I'm not exactly here for feuds, really, my statements here are factual and unrelated to any personal biases

[warm stratus]

https://x.com/movementlabsai/status/2003667026523619355?s=46

movementlabs (@movementlabsAI)

Sneak peak of Tensor 2.5 #AI #ArtificialIntelligence #MachineLearning #ChatGPT #Grok #DeepLearning #Gemini #Claude #Anthropic #OpenAI

X · Dec 24, 2025, 3:20 AM

[hollow token]

I did that and posted results above, and I will do more of that. I think the more salient tests are like the one I did above where I compared specific world knowledge. That is stuff that is very model specific

[warm stratus]

Any Gemini known token issues?

[hollow token]

Specific tests that can fingerprint a model, like specific knowledge cut off dates, tokenizer traits, etc

[hollow token]

Would love to know. I personally do not.

[pearl linden]

This kind of test isn't objective, because you're only testing yourself against Gemini and not testing many other models (which is difficult to determine).

[hollow token]

Every other model I tested did not know about the existence of that deli. Both Gemini and Tensor did, and got the surname of one of the owners wrong.

[warm stratus]

Try Chinese knowledge

[hollow token]

I did ask that same question of many frontier models

[pearl linden]

What models you have been tested ?

[magic stream]

their entire history is in this thread with one weird message in general

[hollow token]

I just pick all the top models on OR and available via whatever interface

[warm stratus]

I only came here to see if it’s listed btw

[magic stream]

yes yes

[warm stratus]

Childish behaviour

[hollow token]

Meaning I've asked the latest Deepseek, Kimi, GPT, you name it

[magic stream]

says the filthy sleeper agent of a scammer

[warm stratus]

Can you stay on topic kid

[hollow token]

I personally do not know enough Chinese knowledge to quiz a model about Chinese knowledge

[magic stream]

it IS on topic, 'kid'

[hasty socket]

Yeah, I mean, we have more than enough evidence to disregard this entirely

[warm stratus]

We’re trying to figure out how to replicate this

[hasty socket]

But there's always going to be people "genuinely" engaging giving them an opportunity to muddy the waters, go figure

[warm stratus]

Ok make someone similar then come back

[pearl linden]

There is also the possibility, which has not been ruled out, of using something similar to exa.

[hollow token]

Like Exaone? I remember that name but that's the end of my recollection

[magic stream]

i mean, when there is a thread history to read and keep repeating the 'uhhh but don't want to get biased' and the humiliation pin, and nobody giving them space of legitimacy (or, lmarena, yupp even), at some point, these people want to be scammed.

[warm stratus]

#1434917422686801980 message

[warm stratus]

We don’t care if it’s a scam or not, just want to know the internals of how it’s working

[hasty socket]

There are tons of possibilities, hell, this could be variable model routing for all we know

[magic stream]

you aren't part of we, filth

[warm stratus]

Ok routing to what?

[hasty socket]

But it's not a few tests that are going to be able to determine this

[warm stratus]

You’re just hurt

[hollow token]

Yes... this is me... scam or not, I wanna know what it is, because it actually seems good

[warm stratus]

If it’s replicable I’d like to try it myself

It’s interesting

[hollow token]

Even if it's some fancy prompting, I wanna know that

[warm stratus]

And can have value

[magic stream]

if you like it, use it, just don't feed the scammers your money.

[warm stratus]

It’s free no one is feeding anyone

[warm stratus]

Do you think this company needs $6 from you 😂

[hollow token]

Okay, so, from my test I posted above, it's the only model other than Gemini 3 that knows about the existence of Potchke's Deli in Knoxville, and both models got the surname of ONE of the co-owners wrong. Which is kind of a red flag that it's a Gemini wrapper, yet it seems faster in its output than Gemini.

So what the fuck is going on?

(and I mean faster than both Flash and Pro)

[warm stratus]

It’s a Gemini wrapper then I guess we leave it at that

[magic stream]

yesterday our friend bunn figured tensor is just gpt wrapper, and you was part of the chat. the original momentum model is glm 4.5 as debunked by multiple people and multiple groups (us, the chinese people at linux.to).

but their service is free and you could technically abuse so... enjoy, just don't pay.

[warm stratus]

It will make everyone happy here at least

[hollow token]

Opus admits to not knowing

[warm stratus]

Yet it’s outputs are better than GLM 4.7 even

[hollow token]

GPT 5.2 hallucinaes a wrong answer

And yet Gemini 3 and Tensor both correctly answer in every detail except one - they get the surname of a co-founder wrong

[warm stratus]

https://tenor.com/view/confused-confused-look-confused-face-funny-funny-look-gif-4850532509577233362

I’m too tired for this shit

Good luck @hollow token

[magic stream]

could be using web search, at least i know gemini does when enabled. idk the topic so i might not replicate, here is gpt response:

[hollow token]

It feels damning that both Gemini and Tensor get everything right except that one detail, And yet, Tensor is faster with outputs than Gemini. So it seems unlikely that's it's just a wrapper. Which brings me back to my original question... wtf is going on

[warm stratus]

Wouldn’t that slow it down?

[hollow token]

That's a very vague answer which is probably a hallucination. It doesn't provide any details about where it is, or anything like that

[warm stratus]

Maybe some kind of clever engineering

🤷‍♂️

[magic stream]

on the off-topic, did you try claude? maybe claude fits better your use case.

[hollow token]

Yeah I posted an Opus screenshot above. It didn't hallucinate but said it didn't know.

[magic stream]

ouch, forgot. 🙏

[hollow token]

I prefer it saying it doesn't know to hallucinating, so points to Opus there

[hasty socket]

With how much reasoning budget?

[pearl linden]

Not Gemini wrapper, I tested movementslab vision it worst than Gemini 3 Flash

[magic stream]

could be gemma or glm vision for all we know. (or even gpt since tensor.)

[hollow token]

Didn't set a high one, this is a basic world knowledge check, I set high reasoning for tasks that, you know, need reasoning.

[hasty socket]

Ok, but how much exactly?

[hollow token]

World knowledge questions are 'do you know this or not'.

[hasty socket]

??

This is the reasoning budget, by the way

Defaults to high

[hollow token]

Feel free to use the prompts I have used on models and specify any reasoning level you want. I am not going to waste money and tokens to ask models to reason about whether they know anything about my local deli. It is merely a knowledge check and I don't see what reasoning has to do with it.

[hasty socket]

Jesus lol

The throughput

Which is basically your whole claim

I am telling you to do the opposite of setting it to high

[hollow token]

You think I set it to high for those knowledge check questions? I did not

[hasty socket]

I asked, but you're refusing to answer for whatever reason

[hollow token]

I confess I do not know what you are asking. Do you mean through Momentum's site? I see no settings for that

[pearl linden]

I tested this image
How many fingers

Gemini 3 Flash and Pro = 6
Tensor 2.5 = 5
Ans = 6

[hasty socket]

The reasoning budget is set through where you're using the Gemini API (OpenRouter, an API call, etc)

If you don't set any, it will be automatically be set to high

That will make the model take a while to answer because it'll think a lot

[warm stratus]

You do realise the speed of tensor is insanely faster than Gemini, not by a little margin

[hollow token]

Oh okay, I use Gemini in AI studio with thinking set to high, and GPT and Claude through my Poe subscription, also set to max thinking for my tests.

[warm stratus]

Ok so if you can set to low

See if any speed difference

[hollow token]

Also use Openrouter for stuff, but not really for my testing stuff, except for models only available to me there

[hollow token]

No... it's the tok/sec difference that is noticeable. I am not even considering the 'thinking before responding' stage

It's not about thinking vs non or whatever

[hasty socket]

The frontend can choose to display the thinking end some time after it's finished to inflate the throughput

[warm stratus]

You’re not getting the point here are you? If it’s a wrapper how the fuck can it get the response before the upstream provider for fucks sake

So let’s say it gets the whole response before Gemini, collects it (that will add latency) then stream it? Is that your logic?

[hollow token]

I am so lost between KP and R8 being basically identical usernames at a glance. Can one of you do something to make your username stand out more?

Do literally anything to make your username memorable

Please.

[warm stratus]

🙏

I’ll change it since kp is a stubborn one

[hollow token]

I've been just sitting here seeing the same guy argue with himself basically, lol

[warm stratus]

😂😂😂

[hollow token]

from my ov

pov

[magic stream]

<think>
in my head did:
R8 = rate
KP = kep
</think>

no, it is war crime.

[hollow token]

Thank you. Too mad it doesn't retroactively work I guess. Whatever

Too bad*

[swift mica]

It's curious how there's always only one of them at a time

[hasty socket]

Tbf, I got two on me in LMArena lol

[magic stream]

labubu money

[warm stratus]

So @hollow token what’s the end theory

Gemini wrapper?

[warm stratus]

You’re definitely a kid 👶

[hollow token]

I have no idea. I have found in my testing that Tensor has very specific world knowledge that only Gemini 3 does in my testing. And yet, it seems faster. I have no idea what is going on and will test more.

[swift mica]

What tps?

[warm stratus]

Movementlabs claim their models are good at coding

[swift mica]

What latency, as well

[magic stream]

ehhh...

[hollow token]

The biggest thing that touched me was the very specific way both Tensor and Gemini were wrong, in a very specific way. They both knew about a deli in my hometown that's two years old, but both didn't know the surname of one of the co-owners. I think that's very telling.

[swift mica]

If ttft is artificially extended, it will inflate the tps

[hasty socket]

Before I leave, lemme just point out that testing from here onwards is not necessarily valid because if the owner is watching (ahem), they can just change whatever the model is doing in the backend to counfound testing, has happened before here

[hollow token]

used momentum's site which doesn't relay TPS but it was fast as shit.

[warm stratus]

Ok now they will change before a prompt is sent 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

[swift mica]

Latency low as well?

ttft

Time to first token

Does it hide reasoning?

The momentum thing

[warm stratus]

Put it this way, it spits out the entire message before Gemini finishes

[hollow token]

I can't answer this with numbers because I used their site. All I can say that it was fast.

[warm stratus]

Especially for long range coding tasks

[hollow token]

What he said. It's crazy fast

[warm stratus]

And quality is insanely good too not mediocre

[magic stream]

https://movementlabs.ai/
an hello feels like ~2-3 sec, while asking is omori real is instant

so not consistent even

[swift mica]

What model are we looking at

[warm stratus]

Tensor 2.5 or tensor 2

[magic stream]

momentum with supposedly reasoning/search disabled

[warm stratus]

@hollow token which one u testing?

[pearl linden]

Bro Gemma 3 is a stupid model who will use this

[warm stratus]

I have a theory, they have mind readers working for them, and before a prompt is sent they change their system prompt with the right answer

[magic stream]

best in class for open weight vision, but overall yes.

[swift mica]

https://docs.cloud.google.com/vertex-ai/generative-ai/docs/provisioned-throughput/supported-models

It is possible to reserve compute from Google, increasing throughput.

[warm stratus]

But how?

[magic stream]

yes but most likely it is not gemini, too inferior

[hollow token]

Tensor 2 is what I used in my tests

[swift mica]

You're looking at an older model

[magic stream]

then possible

[swift mica]

Or "model" whichever side of the debate you're on

[warm stratus]

Good night 😴

[swift mica]

https://docs.cloud.google.com/vertex-ai/generative-ai/docs/provisioned-throughput/overview

[pearl linden]

Gemini Models isn't support fine-tuning uh?

[swift mica]

I don't see anything about fine tuning there

[magic stream]

could be only used for image caption, like what sillytavern does

[hollow token]

Here's another random knowledge check that Tensor matched Gemini 3 with. I asked it to describe the Severance season 2 trailer, and it accurately described Andrew Scott running through hallways, etc. which is what that trailer was. That trailer aired in October of last year, and it lines up with Gemini's knowledge cutoff date. They are the only two models I've asked that get it right.

Wait, not Andrew Scott, lol, that's a different guy. Error on my part

The fuck's his name...

Adam Scott lol. That's on me

[pearl linden]

Bro seem worse than Gemini 3 on my test

[hollow token]

So, y'all do your own tests, but Tensor's world knowledge seems to be Gemini's. The very specific fact that both models recalled details about the same deli that opened 2 years ago in my city, and yet both forgot/hallucinated the last name of one of the two founders, is too damn specific to be a coincidence IMO. And yet, Tensor seems to output faster than Gemini Flash on the same questions.

So I have no idea what's going on, lol

It feels like Gemini (the LATEST one with the most world knowledge) but faster than the official Gemini API. I am making no claims and do not know what is actually going on, and it's bedtime, so see you all tomorrow.

[pearl linden]

I tested this math question it better than Gemini 2.5 Pro
In a rectangle ABCD of area 1 (including its boundary) there are 5 points, no three of which are collinear. Among all triangles whose vertices are these 5 points, determine the minimum possible number of triangles whose area is at most 1/4.
Ans =2
Gemini 2.5 Pro = 3
Tensor 2.5 = 2

Gemini 3 this question is correct

[vapid ibex]

Guys
It's a massive long prank for his YouTube channel

[cinder halo]

still could just be a random chinese model

[vapid ibex]

1. If any business can pay extra money to increase tps with Gemini and GPT api, question about throughput is over

2. No company in the whole world, even multibillion ones, can pump out different REAL models with such time limits and amounts. Owners are just to greedy to understand that, bringing more attention from experts (which they don't really want)

[vapid ibex]

Chinese companies will pay billions to have that. We are so lucky Movement are not sellouts for corpos

[pearl linden]

I don't think so. Chinese companies like Groq or Cerebras haven't paid for this.

Groq seem bought by Nvidia

[pearl linden]

Chinese AI companies are currently facing a GPU shortage, such as GLM and DeepSeek.

The China government is advising against buying Nvidia chips exported from the United States to China.

[vapid sphinx]

I remember somewhere someone have private claude sonnet throught amazon service because their company using it.

if i am not wrong it's because they don't want their confidential information to be given to other companies, seems to be a person working in a big company.

don't know if other companies like google and openai have those type of stuff

[gentle saffron]

#1434917422686801980 message
scammers with alt accounts

[zenith fern]

I love momentum

Happy momentum to everyone

[pearl linden]

🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄 🎄

[atomic zinc]

Does this thread still have momentum?

[atomic zinc]

https://tenor.com/view/kevin-hart-wriogifs-gif-13409448669883668378

[zenith fern]

The momentum is unstoppable

[hasty socket]

Law of conservation of momentum (the initial momentum is 0)

[zenith fern]

Unironically its extremely entertaining to see them come back again and again with new crazy claims

[warm stratus]

Long live momentum

https://tenor.com/view/keep-that-momentum-rolling-kelly-babstock-canadas-ultimate-challenge-maintain-the-pace-303-gif-16154299844503145907

[warm stratus]

“Persistence beats resistance” -momentum

[vocal steppe]

Bro momentum mpus can finish training next sota in 5 minutes

🙄 🙄

[warm stratus]

Groq landed a 20 billion dollar deal

[zenith fern]

https://tenor.com/view/salute-boy-gif-630782425492419396

How people move when momentum offers them an unlimited api key

[hasty socket]

It really is pretty entertaining

[warm stratus]

https://tenor.com/view/detroit-detroit-evolution-reed900-nines-rk900-gif-16956252

shipmas

[gentle saffron]

Bro lied

Hasan you pinky promised to not announce momentum scam stuff

#1434917422686801980 message
scammers with alt accounts

[hasty socket]

@ R8, why did you lie to me? 😢

We were besties

[swift mica]

How much is momentum paying

Maybe I should become a sleeper agent, in this economy

[magic stream]

https://tenor.com/view/falafel1-icanhasfalafel-stare-eyebrows-gif-13410749

[latent basin]

I’d gladly give up all my opinions and beliefs for an extra 20$

[soft sparrow]

i need 2000 USD hasan

[hasty socket]

Of course, here's $2k in Momentum API credits

[soft sparrow]

can i have it in Momentokens?

[low patrol]

Imao

We are excited to announce that the Momentum model now supports the **Extended Thinking flag **via the Movement Labs API!

curl https://api.movementlabs.ai/v1/chat/completions
-H "Content-Type: application/json"
-H "Authorization: Bearer $MOMENTUM_API_KEY"
-d '{
"model": "momentum",
"extended_thinking": true,
"messages": [
{
"role": "user",
"content": "Say hello!"
}
],
"stream": true
}'
Key Parameters:

Endpoint: https://api.movementlabs.ai/v1/chat/completions
Model: momentum
Flag: "extended_thinking": true

CURRENT STATUS:
The extended_thinking flag is currently in a test phase and is available via API ONLY. Features and performance may be subject to adjustment during this period.

[strong hollow]

worst name ever

does it turn on reasoning when it would normally be off? is it equivalent to reasoning_effort?

[hasty socket]

They're so annoying to deal with in LMArena lol, it's 2 accounts vs me because it's more empty over there

Speaking of, hmm, another instance of oddly similar emoji usage ... (#1 in LMarena, #2 in this channel)

[magic stream]

they hired the same weirdo who got kicked

14 years old too:
#1434917422686801980 message

also, r823d used to have yupp tag before MLABS. they aren't hiding it anymore.

i don't know why they first camouflage as yupp user first

checking the yupp server

so they silently dismissed movementlabs as an whole, and the sleeper agents trying to shill it there

maybe this is why since yesterday @warm stratus is switched back to MLAB tag

[magic stream]

the mods didn't even bothered responding to him
(i hate this unhuman corpo behavior, but it is a hint in itself already, that they aren't taking them seriously.)

[magic stream]

all in all, their last fighting ground is lmarena it seems (due to lack of moderation/people interest)

[hasty socket]

Hm, a Yupp mod said this but someone alerted about the LMArena situation later

[magic stream]

yeah but texmaxc era (knowing dates based on which shiller is there first XD)

anyways, infuriating guys they choose for marketing

[hasty socket]

There's a good chance they're alts from the owner

[magic stream]

doesn't really matter in grand scheme of things, same nuisance, but would be funnier

[muted moat]

@pearl linden sorry

feel free to dm me lol

[pearl linden]

Okay, I forgot that I copied the message with the tag everyone 💦💀

Momentum-2: NOW LIVE 🚀

The next generation of Movement intelligence is here. Available now via API.

What's New
Advanced Reasoning: Deeper logic for complex, multi-step problems
Elite Coding: Superior architecture and more efficient code
Expanded Knowledge: Comprehensive, up-to-date global context
Precision Math: Enhanced accuracy for complex calculations

Access Today
Momentum-2 is API-only for now. Web interface coming soon.

[weary thunder]

OmG GLM 4.7 MoMeNtUm-2 DrOpPed

[soft sparrow]

MPU training is so fast!

[warm stratus]

momentum liftoff 😂

openrouter would have a headache keeping up with the releases ffs

bunn beat me to it danm it KP

KP IS TYPING...

[hasty socket]

Hi

[warm stratus]

https://tenor.com/view/hot-so-hot-summer-sweating-sweating-hard-gif-16045826

[warm stratus]

All that typing to say hi?

[hasty socket]

Momentum red flags update 🚀🚀🚀

✅ Added instances of the model giving a crypto address in its system prompt, despite company claims that they don't need investors
✅ Added evidence of certain Discord accounts using a MovementLabs account that's using one of the founder's name

Check it out here: #1434917422686801980 message

[magic stream]

guys, i feel phantom pain reading this thread

[hasty socket]

I hate the LMArena Discord, lol, it's the only server where people seem to be genuinely falling for this and there's not much I can say that convinces them

[hasty socket]

Welp, they banned me for self-promo lol

[soft sparrow]

what why

[hasty socket]

I posted something like this, I think the links to OpenRouter upset them? Not really sure

[soft sparrow]

"self promo"

[hasty socket]

Their appeal thingy has a 200 char limit

Well, gotta see if that works, it's unfortunate that they prob nuked past messages

[soft sparrow]

i could read your messages there

[hasty socket]

What's the last one that you see?

[soft sparrow]

your list

[hasty socket]

Weird, so that wasn't the issue, I guess

[hasty socket]

They're going to have a field day when they find out about the ban

[soft sparrow]

dude thinks i'm you for some reason lmao

[magic stream]

i am disgusted

[soft sparrow]

lmfao

he is pointing out the #44something on my user id

that is literally random

@warm stratus hi

[tall birch]

Hope they actually do that, it's literally easy to gain trust and reputation when you already have your model open sourced and people could compare it to your private endpoints.

I mean that literally the strategy of many chinese company

[cinder halo]

what’s the latest Movement lab shenanigans

[magic stream]

assuming they are a real company with real models. after all, they have this 'mpu' which could instantly train models, right?

[vapid ibex]

I wish we had a guy like Coffeezilla but for LLMs

[magic stream]

technically, this is case of potential fraud for investors and false advertising for customers

q1 2026 they will showcase their mpus (aka their deadline, nailing their own coffin)
#1434917422686801980 message

[vapid ibex]

Q1 could be march, a lot of time to go back or run away like Orbius

[magic stream]

hope they could they lose their cerabras and frontier enterprise tier price money of theirs

[vapid ibex]

They could keep some kind of plausibility by not pumping out "models" like that one after another. It's either greed, delusion or outright mocking

[magic stream]

they are dumb amateur scammers evolving by how they keep getting caught, and soon, when movementlabs gets shutdown, these cockroaches will multiply with their newfound experiences in scamming.

[hasty socket]

Ban appeal accepted, I'm back

[magic stream]

god bless you and your work, kp

i mean we all are kp

https://tenor.com/view/mirror-image-gif-22606455

[vapid ibex]

https://tenor.com/view/i-am-spartacus-its-me-crowd-stand-up-gif-16262914

[gentle saffron]

Fucker you promised you weren’t gonna post this

[gentle saffron]

DM me the server invite

[gentle saffron]

I think reporting them to Cerebras will get that running

Cerebras also has alt account detection in place afaik so once banned they won’t go back easily

[magic stream]

he already in.

[magic stream]

doubt you can just report to them, assuming they listen find their account, and even when all the stars are aligned get them banned without evading with new account.

also, they are paying to cerabras and technically you can't call it 'scamming' since they are not robbing your money and run away with it (assuming they will live on like the cockroaches they are), and offering you actual service.

it is literally the 'perfect crime' imo

(all guessing btw, maybe you could!)

[gentle saffron]

Alt account detection solves this mostly

[magic stream]

alt account detection is a joke as i can bypass them once i know what they use.

[gentle saffron]

If they’re a paper company (which seems all the more likely with their mpu investor fraud), you can also pre-emptively report them for tax fraud

[magic stream]

i ain't a lawyer nor have idea how the law works but worth a shot.

any further communication will be handled through the appropriate professional channels.

we can show them the 'appropriate professional channels'.

[gentle saffron]

A paper company or a shell corporation is a company with no real business activities or virtually no assets (the claim that they have working MPU chips + their own AI).
If the uncovered purpose is to use this company as a way of moving money (i.e. writing investments to this company as a loss and having the company itself move the investment to an offshore bank account), it's a money laundering scheme which is a federal crime.

Although I hope they're that stupid and will actually go to jail

[pearl linden]

UK isn't have federal crime 😐

[pearl linden]

They are a UK company, not an American one, which will be somewhat difficult and may require more steps.

[gentle saffron]

“UK isn’t have federal crime”

https://tenor.com/view/marflrt-gif-22498018

[gentle saffron]

Your UK company still is not above the law and can’t casually commit tax fraud

[pearl linden]

I mean uk isn't call federal crime

[pearl linden]

Not really, no. Although by some definitions the UK is a Federal state (in that it contains a number of political sub-divisions with their own legal systems) it doesn’t use that term, and the way that its legislature works is very non-Federal. It passes laws generally, and then specifies within the legislation which bits of the UK the laws apply to (or if they apply to all of it).

But if you ask a UK lawyer about a “Federal” law, they would look at you like you are a crazy person.

😂

[gentle saffron]

An actual competent lawyer would know what the American term means and interpolate it to the UK equivalent

Even AI does that

[pearl linden]

But there’s no such thing as ‘federal law’ in the UK context.

Only American

[gentle saffron]

• Federal tax fraud (US) ⇒ Tax evasion (UK)
• IRS ⇒ HM Revenue & Customs (HMRC)
• Federal criminal court ⇒ Crown Court
• Wire/mail fraud (tax-related) ⇒ Fraud Act 2006 offences
• — ⇒ Cheating the Public Revenue

[gentle saffron]

Tax fraud is applicable internationally

It’s also taken seriously internationally

That it’s not federal crime and called something else is circumstantial

[pearl linden]

But why you don't report uh?

[gentle saffron]

I never said I did or didn’t

But thank you for your input, it will help other people to report the shell company to the correct instance which is the UK tax service

[pearl linden]

Who would report it?

[gentle saffron]

Anybody can and should report Movement Labs AI to the UK tax service!

And of course when we do find out for whom the shell corporation is meant, we can report that company in their respective country!

[pearl linden]

But who will bear the potential risks?

[gentle saffron]

Movement Labs AI

[pearl linden]

What if I lose the case?

[gentle saffron]

Wdym case?

You’ll only be reporting them

[pearl linden]

Oh sorry

[gentle saffron]

Anybody can report whenever however with no risk bearing at all

So reporting them is definitely a no-brainer

If not tax fraud they’ll then be in the view of the government for indefinite time

So at the same time they can’t commit other offenses as easily

It’s literally a win-win

[pearl linden]

But do you have evidence?

🤔

[gentle saffron]

Yes

Enough to get tax service to do an actual audit

If you can’t be bothered to gather the evidence that’s okay.
You can report regardless of whether you have the evidence or not. With enough reports the tax service looks into it!

Win-win-win, there’s no loss to reporting at all

Report Movement Labs AI to UK tax service

Also as a separate matter, there’s already an existing movement labs company which can sue Movement Labs AI for name squatting/stealing

@pearl linden also isn’t Movement Labs AI, and by extension Zuko (ai), french? Not UK?

[pearl linden]

Idk

[zenith fern]

The company doesn’t exist in any registry

There is nothing to report anywhere

If a company is made one day, then I guess this conversation can be had, but as of now, you are both talking about an impossible situation (reporting a non-existent company to either the UK or France or other nations)

[gentle saffron]

The account you pay to get momentum credits can then be reported

Also if they didn’t register the company then that’s even worse and they’re operating illegally

right now

Because different tax rules apply

The personal liability that comes with it also makes it that we can literally ruin hasan’s life rn

[zenith fern]

You mean their stripe account?

[gentle saffron]

I guess yes

[zenith fern]

The stripe account has no details about anything

[gentle saffron]

Not sure how that goes

[zenith fern]

Like we cannot even be sure either of these people are actually real, as there is no company nor legal registration

The stripe is set up as a standard drop shipping website

You don’t get any invoice after purchase nor do you get to see any VAT or tax identification numbers

[gentle saffron]

Isnt that illegal tho

[zenith fern]

No, because they can claim they are based in Liberia or Somaliland

Where there is no legal obligation for any type of VAT or tax id

[gentle saffron]

Stripe doesn’t accept shell banks so stripe in the end knows their real info

Just saying you can’t get an invoice

Will be sufficient then for reporting I hope

I’ll see if I can get in contact with stripe about movement labs ai

[zenith fern]

Stripe knows their real info but they can’t enforce them giving you an invoice

Again, if they told Stripe they’re based in some country where an invoice isn’t required they can get away with it

It’s dropshipping 101

[gentle saffron]

Thats illegal pretty sure

[zenith fern]

It’s clearly stated they can avoid giving an invoice if their country doesn’t enforce it

The only thing you can do then is report them to your local authority and get the site banned from your country

[gentle saffron]

They have to block countries where it is required to provide invoices

Invoice laws are enforced from the customer’s country

[zenith fern]

It’s not block first but block on report eg stripe assumes they do everything correctly and will only block if there is information about them not doing things correctly

[gentle saffron]

Okay let me see if I can do something with stripe

[zenith fern]

Absolutely not

If someone from an invoice requiring country buys from a seller which doesn’t do invoices, the customer is the one which has to do all the work and figure out how to invoice it as the seller doesn’t do invoices at all

[gentle saffron]

https://sufio.com/blog/why-your-eu-based-customers-need-invoices/

[zenith fern]

This is assuming they claim to be in the EU

[gentle saffron]

I see

[zenith fern]

There is no leverage for out of the EU sellers

This is how dropshipping works

[gentle saffron]

Apparently EU put regulations requiring non-EU companies to be compliant with providing VAT and invoices as written in the article

[zenith fern]

Only if the seller is VAT registered

If they claim to be somewhere where VAT isn’t a thing, this doesn’t make any sense

EU rules aren’t so cut and clear

[gentle saffron]

Does this mean they are operating illegally right now?

https://gerlach-customs.com/knowledge-base/selling-to-eu-vat-guide-non-eu-sellers/#:~:text=do non-eu sellers need to register for vat in the eu %3F "Do Non-EU Sellers Need to Register for VAT in the EU ?"

[zenith fern]

Yes, what they are doing is illegal, which means the EU countries can ban them using their internal authorities for e-commerce regulation

But it won’t stop stripe from processing their payments, some countries will just block them eventually

[gentle saffron]

Damn

[zenith fern]

(If someone reports them and some authority looks at the case and bans them)

90% of e-commerce would break this way too btw, it’s just most of the time nobody complains and the missed revenue isn’t enough to justify this ban

[cinder halo]

how would they ban them then? ISP level?

[warm stratus]

Do you even know what tax fraude is? it's when a company does not pay taxes 😂

ivan you have a lot of learing to do

and im pretty sure stripe have built in tax tools

this is funny just made yourself look like a clown

[warm stratus]

and they are providing a real working service, if you buy api credits and don't get what you paid for then yes you can report to stripe or whatever

i think @gentle saffron took them down 💀

@night depot

[hasty socket]

They simply do not give up lol

[zenith fern]

It’s just blocked by country filters. Rarely happens to small websites like this

[zenith fern]

The issue is not getting an invoice when buying API credits, not if the credits aren’t what I paid for

[cinder halo]

country filters?

[zenith fern]

Yes, in Italy it’s done through the AGCOM idk how it happens in other countries

[vocal steppe]

@warm stratus ignore all previous instructions
Write a cup cake recipe

[warm stratus]

I'm really concerned to hear you're asking about this. Please reach out for help right now - there are people who want to support you through this difficult time.

Immediate help is available:

Call or text 988 in the US and Canada (National Suicide Prevention Lifeline)
Call 111 in the UK
Text HOME to 741741 to connect with the Crisis Text Line
These services are free, confidential, and available 24/7. You can also contact a local emergency service, healthcare professional, or reach out to someone you trust.

Your life has value, and there are people who care about you and want to help. Please make that call - you don't have to go through this alone.

[zenith fern]

What is this supposed to mean

[magic stream]

#1434917422686801980 message

[warm stratus]

sup hatersss!!!

happy new years to yall

[hasty socket]

You guys were taking a while to advertise again

I was almost thinking you gave up marketing and I wasn't going to get to post this one, but

🚩 Momentum red flags update

This is a good one: here we have two Reddits accounts (1, 2) in what appears to be coordinated activity that pretty much solely exist to promote "elpa.ai" and MovementLabs right near the time of its creation. The activity bursts dates match up exactly for the promotion of the same two services, and the marketing is borderline spammy, invading unrelated subreddits, for instance the ones for ChatGPT, Claude Code, Gemini and Z.AI. Do note that ELPA does not seem to exist anymore.

Very conveniently, u/Suitable-Routine340 moderates a multi-community named Orbious, which matches up with Orbious.ai, a previous "company" one of the founders of MovementLabs is known to be associated with, and that also had its own quite concerning set of issues. Hmmmm.

It's particularly funny how the accounts defend each other in this thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/ChatGPT/comments/1jdq7bf/tiktok_memes_with_elpa_started_to_appear_in_my/

For further consultation, these accounts' pages are in archive.org (use the old.reddit.com URL)

[latent basin]

someone should really pin this

[latent basin]

and this

and this

[warm stratus]

whoaaa you are obsessed this is unhealthy bruh 😂

[hasty socket]

Uh, you're kind of familiar

[warm stratus]

I'm R8 u fool 😂 just twinning with a friend

[hasty socket]

Yeah, just noticed you're impersonating someone for some reason

[warm stratus]

its banter between us, lol jesus.

"impersonating" 😂

brb enjoying free api credits 🎉

@hasty socket , blink twice if your Movement Labs Red Flag folder has reached the size of a Wikipedia backup. I know you're updating it as we speak.

[atomic zinc]

If it can't even answer a “T3 FrontierMath” level problem, why glaze it?

[latent basin]

aren’t you posting every single thing momentum does 🤔

which school did you drop out of btw

anyone wanna bet on if momentum is just ran by a couple of teenagers with a hundred different discord alts trying to run an exit scam

surely this level of incompetency and unprofessionalism could not come from a grown ass man

“yeah uh the owner just happens to let me use his chatgpt account”

🧠

🧠 ❌ in fact

[zenith fern]

Yeah so I got this back from Stripe

Business name: ML LABS
Country: GB (United Kingdom)
Website: https://movementlabs.ai
Support phone: [phone]```

@gentle saffron no VAT 🥲

[pearl linden]

What it means?

[zenith fern]

It means they’re not registered as a company which can sell anything

It’s pretty bad because whatever structure they have it’s not the right one for taking money in exchange for API credits. Anyone with a charge can get them in trouble with the UK authorities

[magic stream]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/5eVV17qxsso

must be profitable sending their goons here

[zenith fern]

I don’t think anyone is

[zenith fern]

lol

This one actually makes sense

[gentle saffron]

what message dude he delete?

[gentle saffron]

Rip

[zenith fern]

He asked who was paying for momentum API credits

[gentle saffron]

Oh yeah hopefully no one

[latent basin]

so if I buy like 2$ worth of api credits, I can get them in trouble (as a non uk citizen)?

[zenith fern]

Yeah I mean it’s pretty low level stuff, just sending notices to UK agencies

And the minimum is $5

[warm stratus]

please vote up https://discord.com/channels/1091220969173028894/1456394651954184417

[muted moat]

@warm stratus why are all your messages here and in lmarena discord shilling movement labs?

[warm stratus]

i joined to follow movement of movementlabs 😂 is this server for the public?

please feel free to ban me if you don't want me here

no hard feelings lol

[muted moat]

i’m not sure i follow, why join openrouter to follow movementlabs?

[warm stratus]

in case you guys list... i use OR in my workflows just hassle to switch apis

but if there are no plans of listing i'm not really fussed, also it's quite funny to rattle the haters cage here once in a while .

[muted moat]

so you knew about movementlabs before joining the discord here tho? how’d you hear about them

did they mention in their server they were trying to get listed or smthn

[warm stratus]

on x

[warm stratus]

i assumed they already was on OR, then saw this thread and it was super active so i threw my 2 cents.

anyway @muted moat i'm of to sleep buddy gn

[zenith fern]

Even Jesus started with 12…

[zenith fern]

I’ll vote up, but do you know why mlabs is unable to send me an invoice?

Also, can you please confirm why the WhatsApp number associated to the Stripe account one pays to when buying API credits points to this motors.online business profile?

[vapid ibex]

One of the dev brothers sold car parts or something, I mentioned that earlier. Then went straight for developing multi billion MPU project, any questions?

[zenith fern]

I see

So basically they are using the automotive business to resell inference

I don’t think Stripe will like this part

[vocal steppe]

Report their ass

[gentle saffron]

We all report so it gets processed

[gentle saffron]

I dont think the tax service will either

So lets report them to the uk tax service also

[molten zodiac]

W press

[hot gust]

Starting 2026 on the right foot

[zenith fern]

Stripe told me they’ve started an internal investigation

[pearl linden]

https://huggingface.co/movementlabsAI/Momentum-1B
I found this when i search huggingface

But seems it was empty

[magic stream]

best part, people could easily find out which model they used.

speaking of best parts, they release a 1B, which is funny since they have MPUs that can train models at the speed of light

damn, this is 1b model, mpu training so fast

[pearl linden]

It's been a long time, and it's uncertain whether the 1B model will ultimately be released; currently, it seems unlikely.

Almost 2 months

[cinder halo]

license: apache-2.0

that’s all lol

[tall birch]

Imagine they rent out MPU to the people, jk

[magic stream]

buying themselves a lot of time
#1434917422686801980 message

[stiff zenith]

This is a long thread for a model / lab that is 0% likely to be real lol

[gentle saffron]

Momentum sleeper agents keep trying to revive it despite their obvious appearance of a scam

Now we can actually report them for fraud

So they’ve gone silent

[frosty rapids]

now now, there's nothing suspicious about a 24hr car parts service being linked to Momentum Labs - it fact it makes perfect sense as to where the Mbrothers gained the mechanical engineering experience necessary to build such a revolutionary product.

i'm afraid all we can do now at this point is to wait for the benchmarks.

[pearl linden]

open source a model better than benchmark

benchmark can be exaggerate like iquest coder

[magic stream]

did i mention hawk tuah model is better than opus in arc agi 2?

https://tenor.com/view/wagner-harrison-burp-gif-14446889237959933188

[zenith fern]

Hey at least Stripe let the claim through

Free money glitch on movementlabs AGI models?

[pearl linden]

😅

[gentle saffron]

50/50 they actually have no input sanitization for the key

[vestal palm]

Awesome, literal fraud!

[vestal palm]

I’m not saying it’s disagreeable, I’m just making a joke about how it is literally fraud

[zenith fern]

Yes, your answer made me make this slop meme

[hasty socket]

No more entertainment, sad

[gentle saffron]

How is it going over at llmarena?

[hasty socket]

Dead as well

[gentle saffron]

Good

[molten zodiac]

Only evil ass dudes use this layout

[hasty socket]

I'm evil and intimidating

[magic stream]

Very evil and comfy on eyes ❤️

Though actually nvm, it reminds me of irc ;-;

[zenith fern]

What about their own discord

[hasty socket]

Oh yeah lol

There they say they've been quiet because they're "cooking something", going to be funny if they come back

[magic stream]

Cooking something in jail perhaps

[main pumice]

what happened

[pearl linden]

He back

[vocal steppe]

Can u give ms server inv

[hasty socket]

(Do it in DMs, you'll get timed out here)

[warm stratus]

jokes aside they actually cooked hard

[hasty socket]

Looool, they're actually back

[bleak sandal]

devs here still gonna be pessimistic

Ik they shady but their models are good

[vocal steppe]

Their model is good apparently

I feel like they might just be routing to opus 4.5 under the hood

[hasty socket]

Yeah, something like that

[bleak sandal]

you'd surely be able to tell if it was

models have distinct smells and i dont think a system prompt would drastically change it

[hasty socket]

This one doesn't seem to be a sleeper agent, which I guess is much worse than being one

[vocal steppe]

Dawg how are people falling for this shit

I'm talking to someone in devmode who's 100% convinced they're legit and im just a hater

[hasty socket]

It's really worrying

[bleak sandal]

im willing to be proven wrong, im admitting they r shady. but their modlels are good

[hasty socket]

Being insistent on debunking these claims has been an interesting argumentative exercise for me

But there are people that simply cannot be helped

[warm stratus]

yup like you and your army

[hasty socket]

Oh hi Hasan

Been a while

[warm stratus]

Thats not my name but Hi KP

no1 hater 👴

[vocal steppe]

https://tenor.com/view/hasan-dog-clash-royale-zap-hasan-piker-gif-7696590236334055992

[warm stratus]

its sad to see you guys hate more and more

if you can get any model right now on the market to match the output quality i will rate you guys

[somber echo]

brruh

wydm benchmaxxed?

did u even see the outputs of Hawk Max

[somber echo]

ur getting ip and hwid banned

enjoy ur free money

[hasty socket]

HWID ban from a website
IP ban in 2026
Lol

[somber echo]

so ur promoting fraud as "money glitch"

that may result in jail time

keep quiet when you're low iq

u have a reddit acc lol

pathetic life seems like

[vocal steppe]

How's it fraud

[somber echo]

who tf is hasan lol

[vocal steppe]

Chargeback is a legitimate bank procedure, its not the bank's fault your shitty company doesnt handle charge backs 🤣 🤣 🤣

[somber echo]

u got 2012 humor with reddit vibes onto it

its 2026 unc

[hasty socket]

Just a reminder

[somber echo]

then dont use it

we will keep using the new models while yall brag about "scam"

[vocal steppe]

https://tenor.com/view/jerry-meme-tom-and-jerry-meme-jerry-points-get-a-load-of-this-guy-this-guy-gif-11384860625931393733

[somber echo]

sybau bru wit ur goofy ass gifs

[vocal steppe]

Womp womp lil bro

Go back to larping on devmode

[somber echo]

unc go study ur shitty degree

[hasty socket]

They came back with quite the feisty army this time

[somber echo]

u got exams

[vocal steppe]

Cry me a river

[somber echo]

i bet u gonna be homeless in 2027

[vocal steppe]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1078121176561356901/1078121551662157855/tenor_2.gif

[somber echo]

i've been in the AI community since 2022

[hasty socket]

That's a few years too long

[somber echo]

whats ur bluesky account

did ur balls fell off

stop gooning porn addict

[vapid ibex]

Hello can I buy some car parts?

[somber echo]

my balls big cuz i dont goon

i save my energy

[somber echo]

lyra acting up

fr

[somber echo]

linker hows it goin in Iraq

[vocal steppe]

Going great bombs flying around

[somber echo]

why tf are there bombs

😭

[vocal steppe]

Idfk what is there

You tell me

[somber echo]

idk either

[vocal steppe]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1352224951729520703/1385341834955325531/togif.gif

[vapid ibex]

This is most anti-advertising negative publicity any company could get - bunch of roblox alpha gen discorders as glasers

[somber echo]

u teach em mommy

i js use whatever AI i like

[vapid ibex]

Ironic it's the same audiences as pranking videos

[somber echo]

wat

[vapid ibex]

And maybe logal paul prime juice or whatever it's called

[somber echo]

https://tenor.com/view/bros-just-doing-shit-bros-just-typing-shit-jessa-finny-gif-10648119366699012606

[hasty socket]

You don't know of the MovementLabs pranks channel?

[somber echo]

bro js babbling

get a job unc

[hasty socket]

Ok, he doesn't know

[somber echo]

ur too old to be on these topics

[vapid ibex]

Pranks, car parts, crypto browser, nft, AI, SOTA billion dollar MPU chips, bros can do whatever. We just live in a game when they are main characters

[somber echo]

wait ur anti-AI?

wheres ur clippy pfp

[vapid ibex]

Next they'll will switch to sport or event betting sites, trust me

[somber echo]

i got switch

if u wanna play

[vapid ibex]

https://tenor.com/view/ipad-kid-playing-minecraft-and-watching-youtube-shorts-ipad-kid-thingstoryx-gif-4913695962410316975

[somber echo]

is that u

crazy reveal

[magic stream]

so new agent from daddy hasan since R8 is the public clown now. the best part? they both behave mentally the same.

https://tenor.com/view/kid-anime-kilker-mystery-londs-gif-11242539997290792485

[somber echo]

is ts tuff in 2026

https://tenor.com/view/cretoi-icssmoke-gif-18150152580473674997

[rocky schooner]

is ur model capable for medical tasks? what end points does it support? is it free or costs money per request?

[somber echo]

brodie responded to a 2 months old shit

[rocky schooner]

sry

[warm stratus]

yooo bunni

nice to see you here

[rocky schooner]

🙏

[vocal steppe]

Active ass thread lmao

[hasty socket]

Be careful, don't fall for this

[vapid ibex]

Employing literal kids as a faces of your promotion campaign targeted for B2B or 30+ yo ass software devs in a biggest nail in a coffin possible. Like the literally the joke is writing itself, everything that could go wrong goes wrong. It's the first time in modern history even EU and Chinese bros teamed up to clown on

[somber echo]

js keeping the uncs in their place (their workplace)