"here's wings on your back"
#beta-ptr-spoilers
rain cave
deep pawn
That's an anima seed. There's a few in ardenweald
vernal juniper
deep pawn
Could be Ysera's gift to Alexstraza
strange falcon
https://twitter.com/MrGMYT/status/1514617445465567236
time actually passing for characters that aren't main front and center, wtf 
rain cave
time actually passing for characters that aren't main front and center, wtf <:ha...
everyone reaches adulthood relatively normally then stays the same
and anduin's face remains unblemished
strange falcon
the only "children" characters that i remember growing up are wrathion and anduin tbh
rain cave
they should give anduin a remodel when he shows up again if they want to continue his sullen, PTSD phase
even if it's just
bags under his eyes
btw that leak that said silvermoon being a hostile city
could be interesting if that's like light domination themed
with the sunwell
and her owning a dragon, being a hint at trying to lightforge dragons in future or somesuch
🤷♂️
the bronze appear to have a relation to light as well
especially now that we've seen the light looking stuff in zereth mortis
cunning fossil
they should give anduin a remodel when he shows up again if they want to continu...
Man needs therapy bro. Shit ain't healthy
No I do not accept "it's an adventure game. People don't need therapy"
Because like
You want to humanize these characters yeah?
Make em actually feel pain lmao
deep pawn
Zereth Mortis doesn't feel light. At best it's light mixed with a ton of order.
cunning fossil
Not just edgy torture
strange falcon
Make em actually feel pain lmao
nah man, that's too advanced
cunning fossil
I believe Zereth is indeed Light mixed with Order
As a lot of the stuff there us Light made
deep pawn
It's more order than light. Only weirdness is the absence of time.
deep pawn
Perhaps because it's in the realm of death no amount of order can impose time
If first ones are light and order mixed there'd have to be it's opposite of void and chaos, leaving life and death as the balance between them.
Ugh, I pray we don't defeat a void lord only to have to fight his boss the next expansion
subtle oar
Void lords are the boss of the void
upper pasture
the void CEO
deep pawn
Yes, on part with a Titan or Eternal One
But if first ones only blend two forces then there'd be other forces that blend
Void and chaos are the direct opposites
They've worked together before. The hfc boss stands out.
rain cave
If first ones are light and order mixed there'd have to be it's opposite of void...
first ones appear to be light order and death
and death is kind of recontextualized as just mortality I'd say
either that or it actually is just life and death as the split between the others as you say
but I think they want to not give any of the forces special treatment like that
it fucks up the whole 6 cornerstones thing
if 2 of them are different
deep pawn
What if it isn't 6
deep pawn
It's just two in conflict and that conflict just creates life and death as a side effect
rain cave
which two
deep pawn
Light order and void chaos
rain cave
void and chaos don't get along though
deep pawn
Void creates flesh from order. That's life and life dies.
rain cave
that is if you count the legion as a force of chaos
so they imply that azeroth is the middle of the great cycle
shadowlands is the end
and wherever elune is is the start
"lifelands" lets say
do they just like
write souls?
create them?
from what? Are people defined by what is written on their soul at the start?
if so how tf does this apply to the curse of flesh
did they suddenly have to start creating souls for the things that didn't before?
what the fuck is even going on?
glass flicker
And how is a soul judged more than once?
rain cave
dear god
glass flicker
Surely, the Garroshes before ours didn't end up in Revendreth.
glass flicker
That's what was stated before.
glass flicker
That every soul from every timeline is the same, and it's like a rope, with each soul being string.
Or something to that effect.
rain cave
that being said
glass flicker
Sounds dumb, I know.
rain cave
the bronze upkeeping the primary timeline
perhaps they only judge the main ones for internships
(jobs)
and the other timelines get funnelled into the generator
to power other stuff
glass flicker
Could be.
Turn the miscellaneous souls into anime while keeping the main ones with personalities.
rain cave
fuck sake they're making loki
stop the other timelines from growing too much so that they can rebel
maybe Yrel found out and that's why she went all nutty
most likely not but still
deep pawn
Alternate timelines apparently flicker and are weak unless tethered to main time.
rain cave
interesting
deep pawn
I'd say rather than threads of a rope, it's frays along a rope
deep pawn
It's why any timeline we visit has such "clear" borders and things get fuzzy if we stray haha
hell, watch it be that only the orc continent of Draenor even came and that's why it's dying cause it was a slightly healthier outland
vernal juniper
plain violet
6 new pets?
vernal juniper
1 pet
plain violet
Interesting...
deep pawn
Dataminers think the cloaks are backpacks like the murloc one to carry around a whelp
I can't see them locking important story concepts to CE stuff
rain cave
holy fuck that's a cool idea though imagine
like the pet you raise in legion
and the qiraji thing
in bfa
imagine if instead of just working for a dragonflight
you pick a dragonflight, and you get your power from your OWN dragon
we nurture it throughout the expansion
starts as an egg, then a whelp
then keeps growing
give you a personal mount, portable quest turn in
send it off on missions if they want to keep mission table mechanics
and it gives you power
that would be baller
dense plover
I can't see them locking important story concepts to CE stuff
They are not saying it’s for carrying a whelp. That was a meme made by someone
They’re just saying it could be backpacks like how the murloc one was a backpack
deep pawn
They said it was a backpack very similar in size to the murloc ones in detail.
dense plover
They use the same data so there is no way to tell
dense plover
They said it was a backpack very similar in size to the murloc ones in detail.
They have no way of knowing that
It’s encrypted
The assumption is based on the number of polygons which is similar to the number in the murloc backpack
That doesn’t mean it’s the same thing
It just means it’s a similar level of detail
deep pawn
IF they give different powers, I hope they're locked to specs or classes.
dense plover
This feature is almost definitely a cosmetic thing - not related to expac stuff
If they decide to keep choice stuff like they did with covenants, it’s extremely likely that whatever borrowed power system exists will be separate from any specific flight
That tie they did in shadowlands was a huge problem - people wanted to choose a specific power but didn’t like the covenants aesthetic or the opposite - they liked a specific aesthetic but the power was bad
They won’t do anything like that again
If you choose a dragon flight, it will likely be story and cosmetics only
deep pawn
I'm fine with them tying a flight in directly with a class or spec directly like class halls and artifact weapons
dense plover
I'm fine with them tying a flight in directly with a class or spec directly like...
That’s not the same thing as class halls though
That takes choice away
Class halls weren’t a choice because the identity of your class already existed
deep pawn
Who cares about choice over a cohesive spec.
dense plover
Tying specific classes to specific choices is the same problem as SLs
deep pawn
It'd be a lot less controversial if you never see "alternatives"
dense plover
What if you are a night elf mage - are you forced into the blue dragons even though green dragons also make sense? No way they lock that choice to be class specific
I think the power system will be wholly independent of any sort of locked choice
deep pawn
No one complained about the more random artifacts that much
dense plover
No one complained about the more random artifacts that much
Because they were class specific already
Like - you chose a class when you made a character
You aren’t losing a choice by being forced to focus on your class
deep pawn
And they could make any flight given spell tailored directly to a class or spec
dense plover
If they said “all monks go with the black dragon flight” then a ton of people would be upset
Because someone decided a choice for us
dense plover
And they could make any flight given spell tailored directly to a class or spec
Or they could make the power completely unassociated with any flight because it would create an unnecessary problem
deep pawn
If you're never presented a choice to begin with you just go with it
dense plover
Why attach the system to a flight? You could just give each class a thing
They don’t have to be tied to forcing you into a specific story thing
You are saying the power should be flight locked, I’m saying make the power separate completely
deep pawn
It lets them make 5 different story experiences and add a single borrowed power to each spec.
dense plover
Flight locked is bad
Just have a thing for classes that’s separate
And let people do the story they want and get the cosmetics they want
deep pawn
They need a framework to WHY we don't keep access to the power in 11.0 so any system will be designed with that in mind
ancient jasper
Flights need to be Cosmetic only. Anything else is Blizzard repeating idiotic mistakes.
deep pawn
And it can't be a free choice anyways. DKs cannot go Red for example.
So if all DKs go Black or Blue from the start, fine.
ancient jasper
They're most likely not going to lock a Class out of a Dragon Flight just because of choices made by that Class in the past.
deep pawn
That's why I don't believe they'll give a free choice or any choice
DKs canonically MURDERED nearly ever red drake in their sanctum.
Reds letting them in their "area" would be seen worse than the entirety of 9.1 lore.
So rather than dealing with that they'll focus on unique experiences for each class again
rain cave
They're most likely not going to lock a Class out of a Dragon Flight just becaus...
yeah I think that's why they'll have less choices
since a big issue with covenants was some classes not getting good abilities since the design was stretched thin
if they are doing player power choices again like covenants
it will be quality over quantity
if they're smart
ancient jasper
I feel like they need like 5 abilities max and give one to each Class Archetype
One for Melee, one for Ranged, one for Healers and one for Tanks
And if they felt like it they could make it cosmetic based on the Flight or, possibly, the Class/Spec inside the Class.
deep pawn
I don't think they could get away with makin just 5 abilities shared across multiple specs.
People would want more than that
ancient jasper
Would they? Because Shadowlands kind of show more than that would end up being a shitshow.
deep pawn
Making multiple specs, let alone multiple classes share a single ability is worse
They can make one ability per spec since that's what they normally do per expansion.
ancient jasper
They do?
deep pawn
They made 48 for SL, 36(+ whatever new class) is actually less work and they don't have to make each ability work for multiple specs/roles
Legion they made 36
BfA had essences and corruptions and the big complaint was the "homogenization"
ancient jasper
Yes and people are already annoyed that they are going to lose stuff like The Hunt and Soul Shape just because of its uniqueness
deep pawn
the most "popular" will replace dead talents just like the last few expansions
So Divine Toll may make it, Convoke, The Hunt, a lot of others will just go away like our artifact ability
rain cave
Would they? Because Shadowlands kind of show more than that would end up being a...
I said quality over quantity
5 per class is more than what we had before
I'm thinking 2-3 choices
mage, bronze and blue, for example
deep pawn
Choice just feels like more lose than win for them when they can literally just copy the Legion concept but make it DRAGONS. Have the DK "Black story" deal with them trying to make amends with Red and failing. Give blood a spell that grabs enemies and sinks them into the ground stunning and causing damage. Frost get something that adds rocks to ice. Unholy gets to summon an extra molten minion.
rain cave
but people like the idea of covenants
and whilst people did enjoy legion a lot, one of the critiques was of how it pidgeon holed people
deep pawn
Don't lock the cosmetics, bam, excuse to play alts.
rain cave
not really
I think people love the idea of choosing your power
it's why talents exist
and legendaries
they've shown interest in that
aldor and scryer even
and whilst that wasn't a big deal power wise
it was still a choice
deep pawn
I'm still on the side that so long as a choice has a mathematical answer, it's pointless to add, just creates resentment
rain cave
then why do they always do it
dense plover
DKs canonically MURDERED nearly ever red drake in their sanctum.
Didn’t they retcon it so that only some DKs did that?
rain cave
why is the core of warcraft gameplay that choice
deep pawn
Cause they're dumb and keep trying the same thing to go Pikachu Face when players pick power every time
deep pawn
Didn’t they retcon it so that only some DKs did that?
don't think so. Alexstrasza is pretty pissed at all DKs
dense plover
Not to mention the huge surge in DKs created after the 3rd war
None of those DKs would be involved
deep pawn
I haven't done the Ardenweald story on my vulpera dk yet so can't say
dense plover
I can’t imagine the game tags them differently
rain cave
I can’t imagine the game tags them differently
it's done so before
deep pawn
there's definitely flags for quests you've done
dense plover
But I could also see red dragons being excluded from the choice list if there is a choice
rain cave
DK's get special dialogue in the night fae campaign
I mean maybe red dragonflight is the core
like our oribos
dense plover
Like - the red flight could just not be a choice - assuming we choose at all
Could just be a free for all - cosmetics for every flight, being able to grind out a universal currency for all of them
rain cave
maybe there is no dragonflight choice at all
maybe it's just back to basics
and not tied to a system
just unique gear
I still think it's either still pick like covenants, but unique choices per class
or the hopium is the raising a dragon
nocturne totem
Elaborate storylines for each Dragonflight presented in game that don't gate you from content that gives power but does give challenging trials and cosmetics
subtle oar
Didn’t they retcon it so that only some DKs did that?
Dont think so.
ionic terrace
deep pawn
Very convenient
ancient jasper
Called that shit lol
They're doing this to make sure nothing else manages to slip through
dense plover
I think it’s more likely something is very broken
Turnip tweeted about some kind of major error
Twitter
So I think something legit is very broken
Remember, they’re trying to do cross faction, something a lot of core systems rely on, so this is very plausible
Servers being up has nothing to do with data slipping through - that comes from builds
rain cave
they're also relabelling a bunch of stuff aren't they?
like how the new blood knight quests are listed as quelthelas
so place names might get crossed wires
rain cave
Btw to return to the dragon companion idea, pocpoc could be a prototype of that
glass flicker
Yes. But make it so the dragon actually wears the damn hat you give it.
rain cave
Yes. But make it so the dragon actually wears the damn hat you give it.
Mate if they go all out maybe they'll let it wear a auction house, back and or transmog
glass flicker
Yes.
rain cave
I'm getting hyped for my own hopium mechanic fuck
Now I just really want my own dragon pet system
sonic flame
why is ptr offline and when is it gonna be back
i was exploiting my access to it to play through shadowlands questline since I have played it on retail
-_-
glass flicker
Next week.
sonic flame
NEXT WEEK?
plain violet
3 days...
upper pasture
4 days….
plain violet
It's the 15 for me, with 19 for the reveal. It's the 14 for you?
upper pasture
the 15th just started my guy
april 19th 9 am pdt
idk about you but thats noon on the 19th for me
plain violet
To me it's 19, at 18h, so in only 3 days.
(Today is 15 April, 13h)
rough tundra
Yall lookin at the same thing but calling it different things
It's over 4 24 hour periods from now
upper pasture
That’s what I’m trying to say lol it’s four days
rough tundra
Time zones are black magic
plain violet
Yes sorry, I was quite confused.
rough tundra
YOU WILL NEVER BE FORGIVEN
upper pasture
Never
plain violet
:'(
upper pasture
okay fine, i forgive you
plain violet
Thanks you Lehrdaniel!
Sorry Yit, but I am a timelord, so timestuff and us.. well...
rain cave
hm
the bronze were heavily involved in the war against cthun right?
so an old god plotline in a dragon expansion with infinite teases could involve cthun I suppose
especially since I could definetly see sargeras's sword being similar to xalatath, a kind of semi-mournblade that holds essences
hasn't the sword's hilt, orb part, been described as an eye by a twilight hammer cultist as well?
ember blaze
bfa again? no ty.
rough tundra
we wake up in the back of a wagon, with a few other prisoners
rain cave
bfa again? no ty.
what?
void and old god stuff have been around in basically every expansion
ember blaze
i dont want it in a small patch that started off as something else
rain cave
i dont want it in a small patch that started off as something else
I'm thinking something more along the lines of just something that's kind of going on in the background
like the naga in Legion
where they're present, have a dungeon and a few raid bosses represented
but the overarching plot isn't revealed yet
nocturne totem
I want another zone like Duskwood. Isn't going to happen though.
Spooky zone
Back to basic spooky
ancient jasper
That was Vashj'ir for anyone with thalassaphobia lol
deep pawn
Void will be involved. They have to corrupt Nozdormu and are preparing for whatever zovaal saw
nocturne totem
Imagine if instead of wanting to smash us, the first time we meet Zovaal deep in The Maw he is like "ah yeah they imprisoned me here because there is a big bad coming, plz help!"
plain violet
Well sadly, as he started by kidnapping and severe Scourge smashing... That wouldn't be trusted. However I would liked the beta lorebooks ingame to have been on live too.
It was full of lore for the Maw-sworn objectives, and already stated how well.. the Maw wasn't like that before.
ember blaze
i was expecting a slight twist after playing through kyrian campaign. And agreeing with that one angel that turned "bad"
expectations set too high 🛌
plain violet
There is still a good progress in the kyrian mindset after the campaign.
ember blaze
they stop memory wiping right
plain violet
Exactly, and forsworn are back with them.
ember blaze
i want to know why they went with the cliffhanger that they did 🤔
if they built towards this big bad guy, only to foreshadow yet another one without the previous saying a thing
rain cave
I think the intent with the jailer was to always hint at something more
because he has intentions
like how sargeras was a big bad who also foreshadows the void lords
ember blaze
yeah, but wasnt it always known why he did what he did and what he was afraid of?
ember blaze
So why introduce this guy at the very beginning and not know a thing about him
rain cave
and it's not like it's what makes the jailer bad, they could do that plotline well but only if we got a sense that he wasn't just being an evil cunt
like having him show compassion at times
whilst drilling ahead with his goals
I'm still wondering if maybe his domination imprisonment is what caused him to become so heartless (literally)
anduin says he feels hollow from like what
a couple months of domination?
zovaal's been dominated for millenia it sounds like
so he might still have his original goal
but just none of the feelings or compassion of his former self
ember blaze
and is any of that portrayed in the story
also, didnt we constantly peek into his place to see what was going on 🤔
my main issue is how we were kept in the dark even at the end
rough tundra
i'm not sure where this confusion is coming from tbh
there wasn't anything hard to follow about anything in this expansion
what was hard to follow is how everything they were building ended up not being what was presented
it felt like they had a much more complex story in the works but then neutered it for time purposes. that neutered version ended up being too simple
the way it has been presented:
a long time ago, the arbiter caught a glimpse of some impending doomsday
he tried to do something about it on his own, but was caught
everybody got all indignant, the primus dominated zovaal and sent him to the maw
zovaal found a way to resist and reverse the domination magic, then trapped the primus when he went to the maw for some reason
zovaal, at some point after freeing himself, worked with denathrius, who was sympathetic and believed zovaal about the threat and/or is an opportunist and couldn't pass up the the chance to be the dominant force in the shadowlands
denathrius sends dreadlords to azeroth/other places throughout the ages, steering events toward a desired outcome
a few key people are dominated so they can amass and lead armies to cause death and steer events. this has always happened in the lore, wasn't changed a bit. only the figure ultimately behind it.
zovaal recruits sylvanas after convincing her that life and death are a lie, etc etc. this plays into sylvanas's motivations and of course she's going to agree.
zovaal's whole point is to make death the dominant force in the universe so that the impending threat can be stopped.
and/or to rule the unmade/remade reality
this is where it breaks down a little and points toward a refactored story with missing pieces
ultimately, this whole expansion will just get swept under the rug, and just played out to be a couple of ex machinas to get the story from A to B
ember blaze
how much do the covenant leaders know about his plan?
and why did they never mention anything
rough tundra
denathrius knows the plan
rough tundra
probably nothing, they just caught him trying to access the sepulcher
and they did that thing they do where simple communication would have saved a lot of trouble
but decided to imprison him for eternity instead
you can see in the final cinematic
he was trying to say something
but they imprisoned him mid-sentence
which also leads back to the theory post
ember blaze
i just dont like how not a single thing about it was mentioned by any of them
specially they guy we helped recover his memories
rough tundra
wasn't for us to know
rough tundra
all we had to know is that they imprisoned him a while back
the sepulcher and zovaal's freedom were not factors when we arrived
just the anima drought
the primus told us some stuff when we "freed" him
but it was still only stuff we had to know for the moment, because we would not have comprehended the real details. and maybe they didn't either
it's standard macguffin storytelling that every mystery story has
which leads me to believe that there was a much more complicated story that got cut and streamlined because they had to cut a patch and shift resources
you might ask where venari has been
ember blaze
yeah 😐
rough tundra
it's not that i blame anyone for being dissatisfied with the story
but, it is what it is?
i'm not keen on excusing the constant repeated cycle of broken development with the blizz team, but this one kind of has an excuse
we can just let them sweep it and use the pieces they have left as the bridge to the next thing
imo they did what they set out to do, which was fix the car crash of sylv's story
they just needed to create a world ending big bad with nipples and a boring motivation to do it
yawn
i just wish they would have been able to do the things they wanted, since i'm certain they didn't intend the story to be this simple
they have a good writer and a full team of creative staff that worked on this for two years during a really shitty time in the world and it just didn't work out
rain cave
I mean, we've yet to see anything fully danuser
so I'll give him a proper chance going into the next xpac
however isn't danuser's thing multimedia?
and I'm not a fan of multimedia
@rough tundra
rough tundra
rain cave
inb4 there's a book coming out explaining how galakrond gets resurrected and there's numerous events in the book that are key to the setup of the expansion and motives
rough tundra
i don't get that particular criticism because it asserts that there should be nothing important in a wow novel
if you don't want to read a book, you can watch a video that summarized the book, as there have been for all of them for a while now
if a wow novel has no important event, why write the book
and as it stands, the last few books haven't had anything crucial to understand going into an expansion
it's mostly all background story
they can't exactly put 12 hours worth of story content additionally into a wow expansion, especially if a novel's story revolves around the exposition-heavy details around a couple of events
rain cave
if a wow novel has no important event, why write the book
make the books independent stories
that maybe come into the lore later on
rough tundra
nonsense
rain cave
not really
like galakrond
if galakrond is in next xpac
that's fine
since his addition is natural, par for the course a new villain
or chromatus
but only if his story in the expansion is then told in the expansion
not in a book
gusty jetty
Just give me Murazond finally and I'll be happy
rain cave
the book purely works as literal backstory
gusty jetty
Been waiting on hit story to appear since Cata
rough tundra
can you point out something in the pre-bfa, pre-legion, pre-cata, pre-SL book that were important to understand in any of those expansions?
rain cave
there was a pre legion book?
rough tundra
maybe i'm just thinking of the shorts and comics
rain cave
and it's not like they're important, it's that they're literally parts of the main story
rough tundra
ok but what parts
rain cave
I watch the summaries of these books
but there are iportant parts
like the void from anduin
turalyon and alleria torturing
bwonsamdi in general
rough tundra
none of that was involved with SL
rain cave
so why was it important?
rough tundra
none of it is needed to understand anything with SL
rain cave
so it's a pointless book
for the story of shadowlands
because nothing important happens in it
rough tundra
they are books with separate stories
rough tundra
which is what you want, but you're also critising for not being
rain cave
do it with animatics, cinematics or ingame questing
do actual background stories with books
that are independent
rough tundra
they were
rain cave
you literally called them the "bfa" books
or
"shadowlands" books
they are defined by an expansion
a primary story in game
rough tundra
because they're backstory for the events leading to the expansions
rain cave
they're not backstory though
rough tundra
but don't factor into the expansions themselves
rain cave
because they're not in the back
they're literally the front and center events leading up to the expansion
it's not going into the backstory of why nathanos is serving sylvanas
or who the jailer is
rough tundra
you don't need them to understand anything that's happening
rain cave
who bwonsamdi is
it's not backstory
it doesn't explain the how and why
it's just showing things
that are events in the story
and as you said they're not important to the story at all, since none of it is referenced in game
rough tundra
and can you find the information in other forms?
rain cave
so why hold themselves to the book
rough tundra
a video, perhaps?
rain cave
all they do with the book, is lock themselves in to a 3rd parties interpretation of their own lore
rough tundra
no, the 3rd party is given an outline and has to write for the outline
rain cave
exactly
rough tundra
the 3rd party isn't creating anything that isn't outlined
just filling in the colors
rough tundra
can you point to any examples
crimson jasper
you can't point anything out to me that affected bfa or SL
tbf, l think the whole Talia Menthil stuff should have been ingame, tho for us she just popped up after events we only knew since we read the book
rain cave
the burning of the tree
rough tundra
because you didn't read any of them
crimson jasper
just since you asked an example
rough tundra
talia wasn't in any book
crimson jasper
ofc she was
rain cave
isn't talia becoming an undead the core part of the BfA book
rough tundra
that's calia
crimson jasper
ah
rain cave
semantics
crimson jasper
phone Auto correct
rough tundra
no, it's a whole other fuckin character
rain cave
w/e
crimson jasper
the light undead chick
rain cave
correction done
crimson jasper
there
rough tundra
is there any way to find out who calia is?
rain cave
oh yeah also war crimes
rough tundra
other than reading the book
rain cave
garrosh and WoD
WoD has a really weird fucking jump
from MoP
if you didn't read the book you'd be thinking
"what the fuck is happening?"
or know what the book is about
rough tundra
no, wod was explained at the end of mists through the quest line
crimson jasper
other than reading the book
only if you are priest you meet her on the order hall
rough tundra
and then again while levelling in wod
crimson jasper
tho not the events leading to what becomes of her
rain cave
you only see garrosh right at the end of levelling in WoD
and only if you finish an optional quest chain
rough tundra
most of nagrand is us tracking him after he gets there
rain cave
and nagrand is 75% optional
rain cave
but considering WoD is meant to be all about garrosh doing shit to start it off
you'd think we'd see the important event
rough tundra
which is
rain cave
how the fuck are there time traveling orcs
rough tundra
did you play timeless isle?
rain cave
I didn't play MoP
rough tundra
there was a whole quest line
crimson jasper
well no one claims there's not some tidbits of story ingame, tho the narrative which has important story strings often is spilt into other social media, that's just a fact
rain cave
^
rough tundra
is there a way to obtain that information?
crimson jasper
that's not the point
rough tundra
it seems like a pretty trivial thing to argue about
rain cave
we just want the games story to be in the game
crimson jasper
let's take another example
rain cave
not in a random book by an author nobody actually cares about
rough tundra
the story in the game doesn't necessarily need anything from outside of the game
you are getting auxilliary information in the books
upper pasture
it seems like a pretty trivial thing to argue about
Like most things people argue about in this discord, it all seems trivial
rain cave
the books work best when they are supplements that impact later on, independent stories that are used as potential lore wells for later on
crimson jasper
it seems like a pretty trivial thing to argue about
ok no examples then but my opinion
rain cave
instead of just inflating the current story
crimson jasper
l'd rather have a coherent story ingame
rough tundra
but you'd still need the books to understand the eventual lore impacts?
rain cave
"oh where's that from"
crimson jasper
which also would make the expansions longer
rough tundra
so you're back to square 1
rain cave
not at all
rough tundra
the only difference is time
crimson jasper
but you'd still need the books to understand the eventual lore impacts?
that makes no sense
rain cave
are set way before WoW
rough tundra
it's what he's saying
rain cave
just because it's backstory to characters in the current narrative
doesn't mean you need the books
to enjoy the current narrative
crimson jasper
but that model of story telling makes no sense
rain cave
right now, the books are intended as side pieces for the expansions
directly tying in AS they release
rough tundra
ok but i'm asking why the distinction is made, other than at some point you guys hearing "oh this is bad we don't like the books having things happen in them"
rain cave
as opposed to being things that can stand on their own two feet
rough tundra
none of the books are required reading to understand what is happening in an expansion
rain cave
because we're talking about the books having things important to the warcraft narrative
crimson jasper
ok but i'm asking *why* the distinction is made, other than at some point you gu...
wrong statement
rain cave
like calia being turned undead
crimson jasper
because we're talking about the books having things important to the warcraft na...
exactly that
rough tundra
we see calia like once in a post-campaign story
rain cave
did we play the same game
rough tundra
two years after the book
crimson jasper
seems not
rough tundra
uhhhhh no? she wasn't a big factor in anything
rough tundra
she doesn't do anything with the story, but using the thing you just said was acceptable someone can go whoa i'm intrigued by this let me go find out who she is
crimson jasper
🙄
rain cave
I said the opposite
rough tundra
are we reading the same conversation?
rain cave
an example of something being good would be the galakrond example
if galakrond is in the next xpac
rough tundra
how is that different
rain cave
because galakronds story is wholly independent, and wasn't designed to be sequel bait
rough tundra
you knew who she was because the quests said so
crimson jasper
Sylvanas conversation/exposition regarding Anduin
rain cave
whereas the books are literally JUST for the expansion
they start in the middle of a story
and the end with you wanting more
they don't stand independently
rough tundra
so the intent is what bothers you, not the medium. the amount of time bothers you, not the delivery?
crimson jasper
what was in the book only would have helped the narrative ingame tremendously
rough tundra
they couldn't have put 12 hours of novel into the game
rough tundra
unless you wanted to hunt down 400 pages of text in the game
rain cave
because the novels storys can be summed up pretty quick
crimson jasper
they couldn't have put 12 hours of novel into the game
ever played ff14
rough tundra
we're not gonna get started on the comparisons
crimson jasper
it's not that hard to have a full story ingame
rough tundra
everyone complains about it, too
crimson jasper
we're not gonna get started on the comparisons
it's a valid comparison to every other RPG mind you
rough tundra
10 hours of sylv back story in the game would have been boring and nobody would have done it
rain cave
I think FF14 is over-rated and I can't take it seriously but go off shuja
crimson jasper
10 hours of sylv back story in the game would have been boring and nobody would ...
not true
rain cave
we're on the same side
rough tundra
heh, ok
rain cave
but yeah it's not even that we want 10 hours of fucking story
because people enjoy 2 minute cinematics
rough tundra
but that's what a novel would have added?
crimson jasper
I think FF14 is over-rated and I can't take it seriously but go off shuja
heavily disagree, and you most likely didn't play tho story so how should you know
rough tundra
you think the two mediums are the same thing?
rain cave
yeah but warcraft is a game
crimson jasper
so is 14,anyways l stick to wow
tho if you want story ingame
they need to change the way they deliver narrative
rain cave
but that's what a novel would have added?
why do you imply that we WANT 10 hours of content story wise, when it can be summed up and explained in game in like, 10-20 minutes?
crimson jasper
welp my connection is dying
rough tundra
but you can watch a video outside of the game to get the same information
crimson jasper
but you can watch a video outside of the game to get the same information
but why would I want that
rough tundra
BUT YOU JUST SAID THAT WOULD BE ACCEPTABLE
rain cave
games shouldn't be designed for meta fuckery
crimson jasper
l want to see it ingame cause that's also what l payed for
rain cave
BUT YOU JUST SAID THAT WOULD BE ACCEPTABLE
WHERE
crimson jasper
ergh messages are skip loading
crimson jasper
guess l'll just read from here
rain cave
this
what?
bro you're making some leaps here it's crazy
I don't say anything about watching videos being ok in that message
rough tundra
you don't want to watch a 10 minute video about a novel
but you also think it's ok to wrap up a novel's worth of story into
a
10 minute section of the game
rain cave
yes?
rough tundra
WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE
rain cave
because it's not about length it's about delivery?
it would be more satisfying to have all this important information in-game
or just don't have it at all, keep the mystery
rough tundra
what is the important info, i ask for the 4th time
crimson jasper
ld prefer it not be just 10 minutes but I get the comparison, although Dialoge also makes things shorter than a book cause "a picture sais more than a thousand words"
same as a movie about a book is mostly only 2 hours long
rough tundra
and how can you go about finding out what those books say about those subjects
rain cave
I'd have loved to see sylvanas having an animatic at the end, explaining her side of things going over all the events that led up to her joining the jailer
crimson jasper
they can implement the things of the books in a very digestible ingame format
rain cave
instead of just listening to the 1st youtuber to get their hands on the book do a plot synopsis
rough tundra
it would have been either 2 hours long or no different than a lore video by some guy
rough tundra
but it would have ruined the experience
rain cave
you know what ruins the experience?
rough tundra
you can bullet point any story
rain cave
having it all in a book
crimson jasper
it would have been easy to make a 10-15 minute quest line with ingame animatic about it
rough tundra
it's not "all" in a book
rain cave
but it is
unless the book says at the end
"ok now go play this quest for the rest"
100% of the book, is in the book
rough tundra
garrosh getting to draenor is explained in the game
rain cave
yes but the narrative is fucky
rough tundra
who calia is is explained in the game
rain cave
and war crimes in general has so much more going on
rough tundra
sylvanas's actions are explained in the game
rough tundra
although the book clarifies the thoughts behind her actions
that's also explained in the game
do you know how much calia is in the pre-bfa book?
rain cave
fr man I don't get why you would prefer books over just having things in game
why are you so vehemently defending this
we're all sat here going " we want the game to be better"
rough tundra
because it's 10 hours of story that you can find a synopsis of, for people who enjoy reading books
that don't really affect the expansions they're tied to
rough tundra
and you know what
the game isn't made with the mindset that most people will read the book
rain cave
so why are the books tied into the expansions at all?!
rain cave
so why do they exist?
rough tundra
that impacts the lore possibly later
rough tundra
the sylvanas book is all backstory
crimson jasper
ehm no
rain cave
but people are still complaining that they want it in game
it's almost likle
people want a cohesive story all in one medium
rough tundra
having read the last bunch of novels and having played the expansions that came after them, i can confidently say that, no, they dont' impact the expansion nearly as much as it's being made out to here
rain cave
instead of something made of multiple mediums
rough tundra
why is it an issue for anything to happen in a novel
rough tundra
if nothing happens in a novel, why write it
rain cave
to expand the lore
crimson jasper
the book got delayed intentionally to fit the games Story Finale, wich, why not tell those story points ingame if they are just "fluff"
they would have really made Sylvanas a better character that time ingame since we'd have had explanations about her exploits
rain cave
instead of going "here's a book about nathanos being sylvanas's dreamy boy"
rough tundra
because it would have been many more hours of things they didn't have resources for
crimson jasper
and?
rain cave
write a book about arator the redeemer and his exploits on azeroth while we're gone
rough tundra
what do you mean and
rain cave
or the dark ranger night elves
crimson jasper
are you saying when you order a full meal you'd rather get the meat from another store cause it would cost the diner less resources?
rough tundra
it's infinitely cheaper and less labor intensive for someone to write a book than craft set pieces and dialog and animations for the game
rain cave
or something completely new
rough tundra
are you aware of how restaurants source their ingredients because that's not a good example
crimson jasper
you Recall take everything straight
crimson jasper
yea and I wonder why people hated it
put EFFORT in your shit
why do you think people online rage about the bad lore?
rough tundra
- the books aren't required reading for the expansions, despite what is being said here
- the information can be found outside of the book, and often is summarized in the game. the presentation/delivery/timing argument isn't great
crimson jasper
guess cheap wasn't the way to go now was it
point 1 is false instantly if you remotely care about the story
rough tundra
the story of the expansions do not require anything about the novels
upper pasture
why do you think people online rage about the bad lore?
Too much free time
crimson jasper
and point 1 contradicts 2 plus the book info is nowhere ingame
crimson jasper
we brought already 3 examples of different books where it isn't
oh boy ya know what l cba
rough tundra
no, you just muttered out 3 examples that don't necessarily help your argument because the events around them are known in the game through quests
rain cave
Yit I just don't understand why you'd prefer the lore of the books to not just be ingame and the books not exist
crimson jasper
l cba with a discussion like this
rain cave
you like wow because it is a game yes?
crimson jasper
no, you just muttered out 3 examples that don't necessarily help your argument b...
they are not
rough tundra
i'm under no illusion that information outside of the game can't co-exist with information in the game
rain cave
and games benefit from a plethora of storytelling devices as a multisensory medium
crimson jasper
show me the quest where Calia died, and sylvanas shot the people reuniting with forsaken
crimson jasper
show me the thoughts about sylvanas brother etc quest
rain cave
I would prefer a 4 minute animatic showing us sylvanas's story to a 10 hour novel
rough tundra
point out to me where that event has anything to do with the major events of bfa
or SL
rain cave
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hndyTy3uiZM&ab_channel=WorldofWarcraft
this is better than any pre-expansion book they've put out
their animatics tend to be top notch
I'm using this one as an example though
rough tundra
i think the animatics are lazy, tbh
crimson jasper
so the reason why sylvanas did what she did is according to you unimportant, and the impact Calia has on the forsaken during bfa with sylvanas betrayal as warchief
rough tundra
we get plenty of "reasons" for sylvanas's actions in the game
crimson jasper
but yea you are just stubbornly keeping up your arguments that already got disproven
crimson jasper
we get plenty of "reasons" for sylvanas's actions in the game
doesn't matter, we are deliberately missing points of the story
crimson jasper
cause they are in books
rough tundra
later
rain cave
we should have been shown sylvanas's story
rough tundra
we were
rain cave
in game
rough tundra
in a novel
rough tundra
what's the difference
rain cave
as you just said yourself
upper pasture
Do you know how books work?
rain cave
many things
rough tundra
what if it was in the game as quest text
rain cave
in that animatic we see her cockiness, and how it becomes strained at a certain point before she panics
we can see and interpret that
rough tundra
we got plenty of sylvanas cutscenes in SL that show her motivations
rain cave
not really
rough tundra
sure we did
rough tundra
it was more than a few minutes
upper pasture
So what you’re saying is you want more of a short story because you don’t want all the details?
rough tundra
they don't change any of the bits she was involved in that we know about
rain cave
which is just an extremely meta way of speaking and telling intentions directly to the audience
look back to when she got appointed as warchief
the single facial expression in that ingame cinematic
when she was asked to be warchief
rough tundra
tell me how they were going to compress a 10 hour book into a consumable in-game section that they had the resources for
rain cave
that's more storytelling than the entire book
rough tundra
of expositional internal thoughts
rain cave
there was way more reaction to that simple look on her face being appointed warchief, than the entire sylvanas book
rough tundra
some things need to be done as a long form story
rain cave
don't give us expositional internal thoughts? just have people act in character and show their motives naturally
rough tundra
we already know her motivations
rain cave
from the book..
rough tundra
the book fleshed them out
but we already got plenty of her motivation from the game
rough tundra
let me ask sarcastically the same way you did
did we play the same game?
sylvanas's novel is backstory
which we already established to be something you accept
rough tundra
we don't need that because we already know it in the game
rain cave
how
rain cave
ah yes
rain cave
because it's totally shown in game that she refused the jailer at first
and only accepted his offer in bfa/late legion
rough tundra
one of the last things she mentions is that her sights are set on stormwind
did she do anything with stormwind?
rain cave
no
rough tundra
huh
the thing with calia
that's dealt with in the priest order hall, in nearly full detail
rain cave
not really
rough tundra
and we have the scene in the game
rough tundra
so did i
rain cave
and calia doesn't turn into the light undead thing in game
rough tundra
calia was in the pre-bfa book, not the pre-sl book
rough tundra
calia is introduced in legion, right?
rain cave
ingame, yes
rough tundra
we find out who she is
rain cave
but the most important part of her story so far was in a book
rain cave
barely
crimson jasper
he'll just keep this ignorant argument up until you stop answering too
rough tundra
what happens in the book is that she convinces anduin to arrange a meeting between the forsaken and their living family, and sylv sees some of the foraken trying to leave and starts killing people. calia is brought to the priest order hall and becomes lightbound undead.
crimson jasper
it's plain to see that important story beats are in BOOKS ONLY
rough tundra
that's basically the whole book boiled down into a sentence
rain cave
rain cave
and that's unsatisfying
rough tundra
but it's also something you said you'd accept
rain cave
not at all
rough tundra
of course it is
rain cave
because my issue
rough tundra
i can read english
rain cave
is with the books being directly tied to the expansions
instead of independent stories
rough tundra
and i'm saying they are
rough tundra
and i'm saying what's the difference
rain cave
imagine being a random guy
rough tundra
you're arguing about time
rain cave
you pick up before the storm
and read it
random guy
doesn't know what warcraft is, maybe heard of world of warcraft
will that story hold up?
it's a sequel and prequel
rough tundra
would any book?
rain cave
I assume you mean any warcraft book
in which case
dawn of the aspects
lord of the clans
chronicle even?
rough tundra
chronicle is literally just writing down game events
rain cave
ok and?
rough tundra
did you read either of those books
rain cave
which ones
rough tundra
dawn of the aspects is about the dragons dealing with the loss of their immortality after deathwing
so no, that wouldn't have worked
rough tundra
no it's post-cataclysm
sullen crater
what happens in the book is that she convinces anduin to arrange a meeting betwe...
If I recall it was actually Anduin who proposed the meeting between Forsaken and humans.
rain cave
which one's galakrond in
rough tundra
lord of the clans is about thrall's escape from durnholde and the rebuilding of the horde
also wouldn't have worked
crimson jasper
galakrond was in dawn of the aspects
rain cave
I just don't want to have these fucking books man
rough tundra
it was also tied to cancelled game
rough tundra
and nothing is stopping you
rain cave
but a bunch of juicy lore is being scooped out for the fucking books
rough tundra
the story in the game is not affected, and on the off-chance it is, you can look it up on wow wiki
rain cave
instead of things for the game itself
rain cave
that argument is a fallacy and you know it
rain cave
the story in the game is not affected, and on the off-chance it is, you can look...
"this statement is 100% true, but when it isn't, it completely falls through"
rough tundra
the bits that you guys brought up, calia, garrosh, sylvanas, none of it is required for an expansion to make sense
you are not lost in the slightest
and most of the time it's just anciallary characters or information
rain cave
mate I don't want to have to watch lore videos
on thesebooks
I want to play the game
and have the books events be in the game
rain cave
the animatics are in the game
rough tundra
so pretend a lore video is in the game
rough tundra
the animatics so far have been important to the game
which is why they are shown in the game
book stuff just isn't
rough tundra
but you get the information?
rain cave
so?
rough tundra
the lore video is just telling you the lore
doesn't negate it
a lot of the time they use pretty pictures
rain cave
you don't make a story with the intent that somebody will make an instructional video with how to understand it
that's bad writing and bad art
rough tundra
right, you intend for someone to read it
but the people who don't want to read can watch or read bullet points
rain cave
if you want a story to be cohesive
rough tundra
well again, i just summarized the whole bfa book
rain cave
people have to experience the things in that story
yeah but I didn't experience the story did I
the books shouldn't exist in the way they currently do
do new things
create new characters
new stories
rough tundra
you still wouldn't have if they condense a novel's worth of story into an in-game section that would be a few minutes at max, or a bunch of expositional quest text
rain cave
because again, the only reason a "novel worth of story" is even that long is because they stretch it out that long
rough tundra
that they mentioned that summarization that i did of the bfa book in the game
you said
it was unsatisfying
rain cave
bro I don't care what you have to say everyone is against you here in some way
rough tundra
no, two of you are
rough tundra
and neither of you are doing anything but going around in circles
rough tundra
you dont' want the books
rain cave
we want to experience a cohesive story
rough tundra
the fact that they end up on bestsellers lists tells me that you are incorrect
rain cave
without the need or presence of multimedia
deep pawn
What if Tazavesh having a Vrykul AND an Infinite are both big hints about 10.0?
Think they'll let us kill Odyn or Thorim?
rough tundra
we're just going around in circles