beta-ptr-spoilers

[dense plover]

3 different fucking books/stories

[deep pawn]

looks like Blizzard had a couple days off

light ptr build, minimal hotfixes

[rain cave]

ok so sylvanas has 3 different inner sylvanas monologues?

for the same event?

[dense plover]

the burning of teldrassil short story thing, the BfA pre-novel, and the sylvanas book

[dense plover]

yes

literally yes

[rain cave]

are you sure these aren't like

her saying things

[dense plover]

no

it was her fucking thoughts

3 different times

each one different

because the writers suck

[rain cave]

sure that her thoughts aren't retrospective in the new book?

[dense plover]

except for Golden - shes great

[rain cave]

golden isn't all that

I think golden is the weakest part of the novels

[dense plover]

i like her writing more than the drivel we have gotten lately

[rain cave]

because I don't want to read them

[dense plover]

she IS the novels

[rain cave]

no

[dense plover]

you know that right?

[rain cave]

the story is

[dense plover]

the recent sylvanas novel is literally her

[rain cave]

no it's not

[dense plover]

the BfA novel? her

HER NAME IS THE AUTHOR ON THE BOOK

[rain cave]

because they tell her what to write

[dense plover]

oh fuck off

[rain cave]

she just scribes it with fancy words

[dense plover]

i want to call you names so im done

im blocking you

[rain cave]

I disagree with her on other things too

[dense plover]

i cant - this is stupid

[rain cave]

she's just not somebody I really like

nothing personal just

don't like her

[dense plover]

your opinions are your own and theyre factually wrong

i have better things to do

[rain cave]

I think you're just raving and want to be right

and resort to blocking people who don't meet your echo chamber

instead of just having a straight conversation or walking away from the keyboard

lmao

final fantasy isn't a serious franchise, they've shown as much themselves. WoW is much more engaging when it's good, FF14 only has players because streamers are comparing it to current bad state WoW

as soon as that honeymoon is gone the playercount will drop like flies is my bet

if you want a legitimately good independent game from WoW, GW2 is my recommendation

[tulip sun]

They are all very different games.

[deep pawn]

Not really, people have experience good story telling in a game with ff14

[rain cave]

but the story is pointless

[tulip sun]

People will like what they like

[deep pawn]

I'll be playing it every patch/expansion for the story alone

[jade basalt]

Most likely they'll just increase the level cap to 70. And then re-do a squish eventually a few expansions from now, they have the tech now.

[dense plover]

i 100% agree

[deep pawn]

FF14's story has more impact than the last 16 years of WoW

[dense plover]

i think if anything, theyll boost chromie time to 60

[rain cave]

I'm betting on them keeping it at 60

@deep pawn but ff14's story has no impact

[dense plover]

so its 10-60 instead of 10-50

[rain cave]

since it's just non-canon dribble

to me

[jade basalt]

Yeah, would be nice.

[rain cave]

the story won't be felt at all down the line

[dense plover]

makes the most sense

[rain cave]

I think ff14 is just exceedingly over-rated

after having to make sure I was installing the right game, since the UI and art look disgustingly ancient

I levelled a bit and then just got bored

more over-rated than nier automata and that's in my top 3 overrated games

[deep pawn]

are you just angry at everything?

[rain cave]

no

[dense plover]

theyre still going on about stuff? see - this is why i blocked them

[rain cave]

I just don't think people should praise ff14 as this amazing example of what WoW should do

@dense plover lmao you're pathetic my man sorry to say

[deep pawn]

There's a lot they can take. Like actually spending time so we can feel connection to characters

[rain cave]

sorry to come off as aggressive but jesus

[deep pawn]

I felt 0 real connection to anything that happened in Zereth Mortis

[rain cave]

is he always like that?

but if WoW copied ff14

it would be so fucking dead to me

WoW is WoW it shouldn't try to be some whacky zany anime game without a unique style

and even if you think FF14 is good, WoW still shouldn't copy the things that make it FF14

just like how I think GW2 is good, but I wouldn't want WoW to copy it just to copy

[subtle oar]

I do too.

[deep pawn]

I just want WoW to stop being a soulless where the big names do the heavy lifting and we're just along for the ride.

[subtle oar]

I want those proffessions

[dense plover]

they literally just removed professions

no way we get new ones for one specific thing

[rain cave]

same, which is why I hope they use the newer characters they've set up as the vehicles for that

[dense plover]

that was literally why they got rid of first aid

[rain cave]

idk, the mini classes seem too out there

the minstrel and chronomancer ones mainly

[subtle oar]

Be pessimistic then. Having new proffs that tie into Player Housing would be super awesome.

[dense plover]

why not use existing ones though?

[rain cave]

unless the mini classes are also like, things anyone can switch to if they are that armour type

that would make sense to me

but I doubt the mini classes are true, they're too disruptive to the future of the game imo

unless they're going to wrap up and make WoW 2 lmao

but that's a meme

also the leak says chromatus is the main enemy but I doubt that heavily

[subtle oar]

All of them can be, but having two new secondaries that provide the basis would be awesome. WoW needs new ones. Look at how many FF has and each one is super fun.

[rain cave]

unless they redesign him completely

[queen wadi]

Just let us do all professions like a lot of games do

[dense plover]

or ya know, they could make existing ones fun first

[subtle oar]

🙄

[rain cave]

fix professions so some people don't have one wasted

[subtle oar]

So pessimistic

[dense plover]

thats not pessimism

thats good game design

[rain cave]

like if you're an engineer, you also kind of have to be a miner if you want to be self sufficient

[dense plover]

you dont make new stuff while the existing stuff is still bad

just because you want new stuff

fix the stuff thats still used

[rain cave]

imo gathering professions are kind of cringe anyway

[dense plover]

make it good

[rain cave]

maybe bake the gathering in to the production profession, and get the bonuses there

like blacksmithing getting bonus ore from mining

bonus gems for jewelcrafting

[queen wadi]

I have alchemy and engineering since I am dependent on potions to survive

[subtle oar]

I want new

[rain cave]

@dense plover or you just remove the old bad stuff and make new good stuff to replace it

well

ideally

but ofc my words are wasted since he's blocked me for clowning on final fantasy 🤡

[deep pawn]

More for what you said about Golden I think

[rain cave]

What's golden

[deep pawn]

you seem to hate WoW and FF14, which comes across as just being contrarian and hating popular stuff. 😄

[rain cave]

No I love Warcraft

And parts of final fantasy interests me

However the factn it's attached to final fantasy ruins the image for me

WoW was in effect my first pc game

It'll always have a place for me

I just don't think ff14 is actually that popular

[queen wadi]

The elder scrolls will always interest me as lore, but WoW will always be my first mmo

[rain cave]

I tried ESO, I didn't like how limiting the game felt

[deep pawn]

14 is definitely more popular than WoW is currently

[queen wadi]

Nothing can ever be as good as morrowind

[rain cave]

I disagree

In my experience, I'll see way more people talk about WoW, see wow t-shirts, etc before I hear mention of ff14

Warcraft has so much more staying power than final fantasy as a brand

[queen wadi]

Warcraft has been around since 94, a lot more time to build up a fanbase

[rain cave]

Final fantasy has been around longer hasn't it?

[queen wadi]

Each new final fantasy is essentially a new story

[rain cave]

On historically larger platforms too

[subtle oar]

PC is the largest platform behind Mobile

[rain cave]

Individually and now yes

But I mean historically

Even today both mainline consoles equal or beat pc

[subtle oar]

Uh no

[rain cave]

Not to mention that the pc market is inflated by low spec PCs people just have for work

[subtle oar]

No

[rain cave]

Yes

[subtle oar]

No

[rain cave]

Mate

It's literally in the steam hardware surveys

[subtle oar]

Man, you're full of bad opinions and wrong information tonight

[rain cave]

Tf you mean

Look at how many low spec PCs there are

The pc market doesn't shrink as much as a console market

As they last longer

Both PS4 and Xbox one were more market share than PC if you combine them

[subtle oar]

xD

[rain cave]

Idk what you want me to say

[subtle oar]

Yeah Im done. This conversation is going nowhere fast and filled with misinfo

[rain cave]

It's really not

I study the game industry my man

Have since I was 12

[dense plover]

they did it again didnt they?

[rain cave]

If you legit think that every pc in the market share of around %35 last time I checked, is a full spec ed gaming pc

You're delusional

[dense plover]

look - i dont block easily - honestly, block them, youll have a better time

[rain cave]

And before the pandemic it was secondary to the console market for sure

[subtle oar]

Yup. PC now supposedly less of a market than Consoles, but it dwarfs the console market.

[rain cave]

You blocked pretty easy

[subtle oar]

Agreed

[rain cave]

You're misconstruing my words

Completely

[deep pawn]

14 is more recent than WoW. The franchises at this point are roughly the same age. WoW isn't in Japan, FF14 isn't really in China is the biggest differences.

[rain cave]

FF is older than Warcraft

And with a historically larger potential market

[subtle oar]

WoW is in Japan

[deep pawn]

To me the difference between 28 and 35 years for a franchise is minor, especially when you look towards stuff from the 80s and 90s

[deep pawn]

Not officially. No localization or anything like that

[rain cave]

Note in the second image that the PlayStation family aren't even present on that graph

PC market share is high because of the large volume of free to play games that are easily accessible to lower end hardware, which is relevant in regions like Asia

Or Central Europe

In places like NA, yes pc is growing and on paper is expected to eclipse the console market

But that is not now.

Consoles combined still are the majority in places like NA, that combined with the higher premium earnings means more attention there more often than not

[subtle oar]

xD

[rain cave]

Man I come at you with the figures

[subtle oar]

No xD

[rain cave]

Yes

You're just refusing to accept it

[subtle oar]

Nope. Peach was right.

[rain cave]

About what?

Like I don't understand what else you want man

You can't just look at the graph and get the full story. But even if you do it's against your point

I hate when people get into delusional mindsets about stuff like this, because it's pointless

There's nothing to be gained from sticking your head in the sand.

If you like ff14, more power to you honestly

I wish I enjoyed more things

But in this context your view on the gaming market is just wrong

And no amount of smugness will change that

If you're going to be so cocky show me

What leg are you standing on for this view

[uncut vault]

I want to assume you mean ffxiv in particular

because final fantasy is one of the biggest game series in the world lol

[rain cave]

I don't experience it as such

I'm more likely to hear about Warcraft than final fantasy when I walk in the room

Like sure final fantasy is having a growth period in terms of sales atm

But at the same time that's just WoW refugees on one of the games

[uncut vault]

that sounds like confirmation bias lol

[rain cave]

They aren't invested in final fantasy, and I think that entire franchise make's it hard to

[uncut vault]

I hear more about warcraft too: because it's the franchise I'm more invested in, and the one I have more spaces around

[rain cave]

I'm not talking about my online friend groups I mean like just day to day

[uncut vault]

thats still just confirmation bias and anecdotes

[rain cave]

Fair enough, but I believe my point still stands in terms of where the fans are

All it takes is a good WoW expansion to pull everyone back

I see the recent boom of ff14 as a trend, not a true population growth

Just like things like new world and lost ark

I'm still surprised at how archaic ff14 felt though

The launcher feels like it's unofficial

Lmao

For me personally it just failed to capture any interest

Believe me I'm not trying to be negative, I'm always soul searching for another game to love

[ivory meadow]

[cunning fossil]

The art style is of course hard to get behind

Which is fair

Even I don't like it THAT much. It is pretty good thiugh

[ivory meadow]

I wonder how many times i've heard that one...

and not just with WoW

[strange falcon]

that's the FF1 remake(which has been confirmed to be not that good outside of combat) not FF14, please dont show your lack of knowledge on the subject

damn preach is being so based today, its quite poggers

poor preach is a war veteran

[strange falcon]

i believe that's the most agreed on thing tbh

[strange falcon]

damn, first time i see preach blocking anyone, you know it's real bad when that happens

[strange falcon]

i would say that even just ONE SINGLE PATCH has more impact than the last 16years of wow(while also giving a start to finish story)
my choice being 5.0(ShB launch), but there's many examples.
and 5.0 even proves wrong the dismissive excuse "ah the jailer was bad because he was a 1 expac villain", then you look at 5.0's villain

[strange falcon]

...? it is canon within the game itself, even things from the first expansion or basegame get referenced in the latest expansion, so it is definitely more canon than what mr Steve "retcon" danuser has been doing so far
i believe the crucial disconnect between you and preach is that you cannot think of series as separate stories with separate universes that share a few similar creatures or topics, and instead think of it, as one long canon story that has them interconnected, which its not.

as long as this disconnect is in place, there will never be an agreement.

[strange falcon]

preach is correct tho, "adding new" is just sweeping the problem under the rug, and will eventually add up into bloat, like how we had talent bloat, ability bloat, etc etc

a good example is the classes, a lot of classes either flat out dont work, or are very janky or unfun without the current expac's borrowed power, and that's because instead of making a good foundation, they added "new" without making it fit within the rest of the systems.
there's a reason why wow's style of borrowed power is called "parasitic design" because it isn't able to sustain itself on its own, and it needs to leech off other systems to even work

[strange falcon]

damn even baifeng, oof

[strange falcon]

FF7 is a ton of western people's first JRPG as well.
japan and western games have been having a marriage since the early 2000s with nintendo or even earlier

[strange falcon]

doubtful, while they may pull those on the fence back, broken trust and betrayal is not something that is fixed overnight.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/458724604450439168/901923912349286420/imgonline-com-ua-twotoone-YvsFYHajD4kIvoKt.jpg

[strange falcon]

the art style was also limited by ps3 graphics, which....weren't the best by today's standards, which is also the reason why shadowbringers expac is such a step up compared to what came before(not even talking story or gameplay)
because that's when they dropped ps3 support, and the graphics update coming next expac will still be limited by ps4 support.
which is still a hell of a lot better than ps3

ps3 support is also why there's loadingscreens between zones instead of being one giant world without loading screens(which is exactly what version 1.0 was btw, but it failed hard, because they thought 2002 gamedesign was still the norm) like wow was in vanilla(it isn't now, especially with shadowlands being fragmented like it is)

thank you for coming to my TED talk 🙏

[young latch]

idk ff14 art style is ROUGH to me because it has two competing art styles: realism that approaches uncanny valley, and moe anime

wow art style feels consistent to me even if some people find it too toony

[young latch]

what feels awful and irrideemable to me about ff14 is the 3 second global cooldown that just irrideemably sucks

and the reason why it exists is for console players to be able to select spells

[deep pawn]

It's not that slow once you start getting all the off gcd abilities

[strange falcon]

it stops being an issue after lvl 45(also it's 2.5s compared to wow's 1.5s), and that's still free trial basegame, and for casters, the issue doesnt even exist in the first place

[strange falcon]

console players play the fastest classes just fine, and it is quite undisputed that FF14 has the best controller support of any mmo, so much so that the wow addon for console support(called console port) uses the cross-hotbar system from FF as well, i'll send you a few clips regarding the previous reply

[rain cave]

@strange falcon my point about ff14's story is that final fantasy itself doesn't hold a strong canon mentality

like how every game is just a complete reboot of the universe

[strange falcon]

it is all canon within that game's universe, the separate games being separate universes is an accepted fact

[rain cave]

and crossovers with other IP like CoD or fortnite

once you introduce crossovers your 'story' goes out the window imo

which can be fine mind you,

[deep pawn]

Each game is it's own story under the same brand... And they often explain crossovers with lore.

[rain cave]

not every game is meant to be a story game

[deep pawn]

Lol if you think final fantasy games aren't story.

[rain cave]

having a whacky non serious crossover thing has worked money wise

to me final fantasy is just a campy badly localized bland franchise

[deep pawn]

It is not anymore camp that WoW.

[rain cave]

I disagree

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJotVinhXJ4&ab_channel=Romangelo

[deep pawn]

The sheer number of poop quests we get disagrees

[rain cave]

the poop quests are tiny and not part of any main narrative

[strange falcon]

the crossovers aren't canon to the main story, that's why the story doesnt go out the window

[rain cave]

why have a story if it isn't canon? or adds to the canon in some way?

[deep pawn]

Cause games can have fun side stuff

[strange falcon]

because you get fun character interactions?

[deep pawn]

The crossovers are canon sometimes like the ff15 one.

[rain cave]

well yeah, but if they added galaxy pinball as a side window to WoW it wouldn't fit well would it

it's just not my thing

[strange falcon]

again, there is a crucial disconnect at the very core of the issue, so no agreement will ever be reached

[deep pawn]

Have you been to Darkmoon faire lately? I played minesweeper yesterday

[rain cave]

if I want a good story is has to take itself seriously

[deep pawn]

Then WoW isn't for you.

[rain cave]

and that doesn't mean being serious 100% of the time

[deep pawn]

14 takes it's story much more seriously

[rain cave]

how

by making you listen to dubbed NPC's talking for a bit longer?

[deep pawn]

Have you played it? You can totally pretend side content and crossovers don't exist while doing the main story.

[rain cave]

I booted the game up

made a character

got to level 3

uninstalled

didn't even know what the story was

or if I was doing anything right

since the game was too clunky for me to tell

but I've seen endgame gameplay and it doesn't look that different

[strange falcon]

we're very nice here, but anyone would go "opinion discarded" when you said this is your experience

ngl

[deep pawn]

That's like saying you know anything about the old gods after finishing Northshire abbey

[rain cave]

just more dodging swirlies

I should at least have my attention grabbed man

they don't exactly market their story that much

I've heard loads of people talk about final fantasy in passing online, and how good the story is

but never what the story is

[deep pawn]

Cause there's a massive culture about not spoiling things

[rain cave]

but it's not a spoiler to give me the premise of the expansions story lmao

[deep pawn]

It kinda can be.

[rain cave]

is it a spoiler to say what happens in the shadowlands cgi trailer?

endwalker has been out for ages too

[deep pawn]

Trailers are absolutely spoilery for 14.

[rain cave]

then they're bad trailers

[strange falcon]

would definitely say that even a premise of what happens in the expac shadowbringers is very spoilery

[rain cave]

so the premise is a spoiler to its own story

that just sounds like bad writing

[strange falcon]

it wouldn't be a spoiler if you played through it up to that

[rain cave]

wdym

[deep pawn]

Trailers are made with people who are caught up to the story in mind

[strange falcon]

your problem now,kyle, i actually should go to lunch by now

have fun

[rain cave]

that sounds like it would get stale

if you're all being dragged along on one plot thread for every expansion

from what I've seen of ff14 the environments and world aren't that varied either

what do they add in new expansions? just quest chains?

because everything I've seen of ff14 just looked samey, uniconic, and the systems were a bit convoluted

it's just fishy to me the whole thing I can't see why people prefer it over WoW

especially since a lot of WoW players don't even really care about story but apparently they're all now playing FF14 for story

somethin stinks

[deep pawn]

I've often complained I wish WoW actually had it's story in game, not in books and stuff.

[rain cave]

yes me too

[deep pawn]

WoW has some okay gameplay but crap story and has for a decade now

[rain cave]

I wouldn't go that far, aside from the initial wave of sylvanas being memed on and then the whole jailer thing

[deep pawn]

The entire story is shown to you in 14 because they made their engine capable of handling thirty minute cutscenes

[rain cave]

the story has been from decent to great

[deep pawn]

Last time I truly enjoyed a WoW story was MoP

[rain cave]

I've heard MoP was good yes

[deep pawn]

WoD was alternate history, legion was just call backs and fan service, bfa was bfa, SL is empty

[rain cave]

Legion's story was fun

and engaging

[deep pawn]

But not deep

[rain cave]

BfA for lack of the gameplay at times

the thing people enjoyed was the story I believe

and a story doesn't have to be deep

I doubt ff14's are

since FF isn't renowned for their deep narrative storytelling

https://tenor.com/view/chaos-kill-chaos-gif-21988010

obviously WoW could be better

I personally want the feeling of the older RPG days back

making dungeons a side expedition

with unique loot all round

[young latch]

i don't think wow nor ff14 have good stories but i think a large part of the point of playing both of these games is creating your own stories within these world trappings

[rain cave]

more player customization through talents

effectively I want WoW to take inspiration from things like DnD, and things like that for some of its design

and I can see the upcoming LoL MMO doing something like that

[young latch]

i think wow has a more diverse and interesting universe for fueling the imagination but i am sure there are also better worlds out there to get lost in

[rain cave]

modernizing the classic formula, keeping what worked and updating it and meshing it with modern design

I can completely see the league MMO having an 'assassin' or whatever running a specific dungeon to get a component in his quest chain to upgrade one of his rare weapons to a legendary or something

[young latch]

they just don't happen to be mmos imho

[rain cave]

whereas WoW steers away from that by en large atm

but yeah more unique gear please blizz, I didn't vote on UBRS for nothing

let me dual wield procc weapons as fury I stg

all the highpoints of WoW for me somehow involved an extra piece of gear or effect that you had to get to get that extra boost

mechagon bracers, corruptions once they were refined

WoD legendary ring

artifact major traits

[young latch]

i would like wow to get back to its dnd roots

[rain cave]

aye

[young latch]

i'm kind of tired of scifi being forced upon me when i want more fantasy

[rain cave]

let me enter a dungeon and find something like

a sword that converts some physical damage to fire, frost, holy, whatever

or has unique effect on crit

or maybe spreads a dot when you activate it

that further interacts with other things

[young latch]

fantasy fans are kind of starving for content but when it happens it's always wildly popular until somebody does a massive fuck up

wow's fuck up was the tree, game of throne's fuck up was the burning of king's landing

[rain cave]

I'd rather they go out on a limb and try extremes than play it safe

tbf

like moving to systems for that analogy

artifacts was a change of the status quo

it had its detractors but

people fondly remember it I'd say

BfA was just copying the legion formula somewhat with the heart, but that's basically saying "we removed the coolness of your artifact and replaced it with a janky worse system"

though azerite traits did get better over time

essences were good though

and once 8.3.5 hit, corruptions were fun as well

[young latch]

fantasy fans: we want magic
media: ancient aliens energy
fantasy fans: dragons
media: genetically engineered nanobot wyrms
fantasy fans: elves
media: mutants
fantasy fans: dwarves
media: robots corrupted with a disease

[deep pawn]

WoW has been tech heavy since wc2

[rain cave]

I wouldn't call elves mutants tbf

or dragons that

[young latch]

i didn't say it wasn't

[rain cave]

and I wouldn't call the titanforged robots per se but I understand the sentiment

[young latch]

i just think there is such a thing as overexplaining a concept that doesn't need to be overexplained

[rain cave]

or implying the start and end points

and then leaving it for explanation

in the middle

speculation, even

like sure there's a big similarity between dwarves and these titanforged, maybe they did descend from them, or were modelled after them?

who knows?

[young latch]

it's like every time i play a card game with a fantasy premise it tries to be clever and meta and i am now in a simulation

[rain cave]

artifact reference

lmao

[strange falcon]

have you tried Inscryption?

[young latch]

yes

[strange falcon]

e.e

[young latch]

i was pissed

[rain cave]

I think the lore of dota's artifact game was interesting

too bad it died, though they didn't read the room well at all

Dota has some banger lore btw

though the moba format means the lessons are hard to apply to other games

[deep pawn]

I'm not overly concerned about a setting. I just want a story that I can feel connected to and WoW doesn't do that. If you don't raid, all the finales in zereth mortis happen without you

[young latch]

it's not a bad game by any means though i just wanted an entire game of the first aesthetic and i'm tired of getting bait and switched when i like the first thing lol

[deep pawn]

Hell I bet the canon story is jaina, sylvanas, and Uther did it with just a few random champions

[strange falcon]

tbf, you do always play a "card game" but in different settings, but ye, i can understand if you just wanted the cabin in the woods vibe all the time

[young latch]

shadowlands did the same thing to me. I finally got fairies in a fantasy game. OOPS: all robots, actually

[young latch]

ye exactly

[deep pawn]

Only the winter queen is a construct with a soul. The rest are beings made of anima.

[young latch]

she just didn't need to be a construct. she even could have been "created" without a robot 3-d printing aesthetic b/c they can't stop recycling ulduar

[deep pawn]

I mean the idea that much of the world was populated first by constructs, titanic or first ones is a vanilla concept

[young latch]

this kind of story telling makes me disassociate worse than any other media trope and i just want it to stop lol

[rain cave]

I mean

[deep pawn]

Literally Uldaman, a level 35 ish dungeon?

[rain cave]

I like the mechanics of it all

[young latch]

please stop handing me a coffee cup and then i can bite into it because it's cake

[rain cave]

wdym by disassociate

[young latch]

have you ever looked at an automobile and can see each individual part as the entire creation unravels

[rain cave]

what

cars are made of parts yes

[deep pawn]

I mean I know there's and engine with parts that takes fuel.

[young latch]

here's a better analogy:

you play a game and it glitches out, and all of the painted graphics go away for a second, and you're left with only meshes of the modelled shapes?

[rain cave]

what do you mean

[young latch]

lol nvm

[rain cave]

what is the intent of these analogies

do you mean immersion?

being reminded it's a game because of a technical flaw

and breaking your immersion

[deep pawn]

I think he loses immersion the moment it isn't straight high fantasy

I don't have an issue with technical gods being behind things myself

[young latch]

No i lose immersion when I'm bait and switched

[rain cave]

wdym by that

[young latch]

"Here is a romance, jk, it's actually a horror"

[rain cave]

when did they do that?

[young latch]

they didn't

[rain cave]

ok?

[rain cave]

I mean, that premise by itself isn't flawed

because those two genres are two sides of the same coin

[young latch]

i think it's a flawed premise for sure

[rain cave]

a romance can turn into a horror

and vice versa if you're guillermo del toro

[young latch]

things being multigenre is not the same as being sold a concept and then it's not the concept

[rain cave]

though that's at a grander scale

but even then

you could say it's just gigabrain

WoW hasn't done that however

since everything is still WoW

[young latch]

it's not tho everybody does it, b/c they think it's gigabrain

[rain cave]

they aren't making the next xpac an RTS romance game

it's still WoW

always has beeen

[young latch]

basically don't sell fairies and vampires when you're actually trying to sell robots

make robots up front

[strange falcon]

that was a big meme for a month or two

[strange falcon]

doki doki literature club be like:

[young latch]

but doki doki just tells you it's a horror up front

it's tagged at the begining

so even it isn't tricking you

[strange falcon]

eh, it wasn't known at the start, and most streamers/youtubers that played it at the start

didnt either

[rain cave]

I don't like doki

[young latch]

damn there's like a massive warning advertisment at the beginning that just makes it impossible not to know

[deep pawn]

Most of those are just anima creations that think. The fae are just a more developed steward.

[young latch]

the fae lore just needed to be fleshed out way more because it makes none of the sense

[deep pawn]

Most of the venthyr are former mortal souls.

[young latch]

moonberry is the winter queen's soulbind. so she definitely has a soul.

but she's definitely not a former mortal

[deep pawn]

The souls of the natives of the shadowlands are more unclear but it's implied the first ones could make souls that were never alive or judged.

They just have 0 anima

We can soulbind mikanikos too and his nature is unclear as well

[young latch]

yeah it seems like an important thing to leave out

[rain cave]

I mean, I think looking deeper in to it

it doesn't really matter

[young latch]

it only matters if you care about those creatures, and i sort of do

[rain cave]

warcraft's story so far has been the resolve of people against forces greater than them

they aren't controlled by just being 'robots'

after all people are just biological robots

hardware running software

as long as you're actually sentient it doesn't matter from where you come from

the eternal ones being things created in a workshop doesn't make them less interesting

if anything it raises more questions

[young latch]

right but robot aesthetics photobomb every aspect of every other aesthetic that it would be nice to have some other aesthetics get the spot light

[rain cave]

I wouldn't call them robots though

the things in zereth mortis distinctly don't look like robots to me

they're more like golems

constructs

which are historically a fantasy thing as well

DnD has warforged

warcraft has had golems since WC3 hasn't it?

[young latch]

i would like ulduar to go away please the next time we tackle something divine

[deep pawn]

It won't

But you're asking for vanilla wow concepts to be thrown out

[young latch]

death pantheon was not a developed thing in wow

it's fine for the order pantheon to look like that but making every pantheon look like that is a mistake

and it will get old fast; it's already old

[rain cave]

wdym

we don't even have a full picture of the titans position

since what we've seen means we need to reshift our view of them

the death pantheon aren't like the titans either

or are you complaining that they're humanoid?

[deep pawn]

And the Titans may not even be the true order pantheon

[rain cave]

yup

the titans are moreso like beings of order sent to check in on us

in reality

probably because of some overarching plot going on out of our scope atm

because there is still that weird twinge of

why DOES the first ones tech look so similar to titan stuff? and order?

is order behind everything? why would it be the only of the 6 forces to be so much more dominant?

are there multiple first one factions who divided?

and the beings of order are predominantly the remnants of them still going?

the 3 forces that show first ones power so far has been order, death and light

those 3 line up with what we've seen

so that to me implies a different section we haven't seen for the contrary

life, chaos and void

[young latch]

making elune stuff look like eonar stuff is gonna be super bland

[rain cave]

I've said it before but

I'm betting on Elune just not being a life being

she's only there to oversee things

on behalf of the shadowlands

[young latch]

she called winter queen her sister i think it's pretty clear they are cosmically linked

[rain cave]

as her powerset matches the death, light and order side of things

way more

yes ik

that's what I mean

elune represents death in life

winter queen represents life in death

would be a classic sisterly duality representation

yin yang

etc

[young latch]

'k but it also means there is protype elune who looks like a bionical and she prolly lives in green ulduar

[rain cave]

"why does everything orc have to look like orgrimmar ugh"

that's the argument I'm understanding from you rn

[young latch]

that's valid complaint lol

orc architecture shouldn't look the same

[rain cave]

why not?

it's their style

for both story and gameplay reasons

[young latch]

b/v they have different tribes and customs and beliefs and aesthetics

[rain cave]

not anymore really

[young latch]

and in draenor they don't look the same

[rain cave]

we aren't on draenor

we aren't 35 years ago

[young latch]

we are sometimes lol

[rain cave]

not anymore though

[young latch]

my mage can travel to draenor right now

[rain cave]

and in fact

WoD HAD different styles for each clan

but present day orcs? on azeroth?

the green ones?

there's no clans anymore, purely vestigial

they united

it's called

the horde

you might have heard of it

[young latch]

nah i haven't, you should tell me about it

like, in big paragraphs that will be time consuming

[rain cave]

I'll give you the short version 🙂

after taking the demon blood and becoming a single bloodthirsty horde and abandoning a large portion of their culture, the orcs invading azeroth eventually became free of the demon blood corruption.

In warcraft 3, thrall saught to go find the remaining orcs and unite them regardless of clan

forming the horde

the only other clan who had a role that set them apart on azeroth was the burning blade

but even now they're irrelevant

you don't walk around orgrimmar and see various orcs in different tribal garb

because they unified

[young latch]

whos thrall? is he the brown one?

[rain cave]

intentional obtuseness

my fave

[young latch]

what does obtuseness mean

[young latch]

anyway, hopefully the art team going forward from shadowlands gets back to their dnd roots, and will lay off the heavy cosmic scifi aesthetics for at least one expansion. that seems hopeful considering the next pack is dragons.

[rain cave]

aye

[deep pawn]

Dragons are absolutely cosmic

What?

[rain cave]

they represent forces sure

but they are still somewhat grounded

they're not a peak behind the curtain of the realities coding

they're big lizards

with wings

who just so happen to have some magic

[deep pawn]

Directly evolved and empowered by titans

[rain cave]

they got a promotion

they are now assistants to the general managers

but then they got demoted after cata

[young latch]

yeah but killing them probably means you get a dragon scale cloak, not lady gaga's next outfit

[rain cave]

so now they're just like

janitors

[rain cave]

also true

[young latch]

tier set designers be like "these shoulders look like something a real knight would wear, let's add several large curls of metal that don't look good and don't serve a purpose"

[deep pawn]

It's wow, the armor is crazy and has been since MC

[rain cave]

I'm fine with the armour design overall, there's a few stinkers but

[young latch]

it's very good sometimes

[rain cave]

I'm sad they don't release as much

hopefully they keep tier sets back going forward

[young latch]

most of the legion dungeon sets look good

and practical

[rain cave]

and it's not just a one off for 9.2

lmao

[young latch]

and things people would actually wear

[rain cave]

however

9.2 tier sets need more colour, I think they designs are pretty cool but

those fan recolours

really bring them to life

but the shape language of the tier sets was done very well this patch

but even if it was just the mythic sets, some different colours would be nice

[young latch]

bfa dungeon sets are great too

and nathria sets, except for cloth

i'm still not entirely sure why vampire raid had plague doctor outfit

seems like a maldraxus thing

[strange falcon]

The return of tiersets wasnt that pretty tbh, at least 80% of the "fan made take on the same armorset" looked better

[young latch]

yeah it's like they were very begrudging about doing them

[strange falcon]

Mind link be like

[strange falcon]

You know its bad when you cant even tell which class is which most of the time just from the set

[young latch]

i could tell some but for over half i couldn't

i could identify shaman, hunter, and warlock

none of the rest

but that's what happens when you decide that tier sets should just be abstracted shapes instead of practical ideas suited to the fantasy

[rain cave]

I'm kind of contrary to this, I think most of the sets shapes do clearly indicate

however that's all primarily from the front

and closer up

whenusually you want to have some colours to make them stand out besides eachother too

like imagine a whole raid group in sepulcher tier

IN sepulcher

it will be hard to see anything

[young latch]

i think i would have gotten hunter confused with shaman if i didn't know about the wolf glyph

demon hunter is also clear i think

[rain cave]

I mean doesn't help they use a human in the shaman set and put them right next to eachother lmao

but hawk is hunter territory

and the sweeping shoulders are consistent with hunter design language

[young latch]

rogue/warrior/paladin/mage/priest were the ones i could not place until i looked it up

[rain cave]

shaman has more magical elements, and that long curved spike

that other shaman sets have

[strange falcon]

The fan made touchups to the same sets are flat out better in most cases

[rain cave]

not to mention the kind of runestone things wrapped around the legs and forearms

[young latch]

they're better and they also color code them

[rain cave]

yeah I agree

[rain cave]

weird, I could

I think paladin especially

works very well

and the rogue set is banger

like idk what else to say I think they shape language for the sets is all good, they just need colours for differentiation

since shape is half the battle

[young latch]

they are more defined by silhouette in the concept art, and the different shapes of player races dilute that silhouette

so when i see in game models they look really homogenous

[rain cave]

fair enough

[young latch]

one thing i want to see in the future: they gave drapery physics to the priest shoulders. make this a thing for normal cloth set shoulders

people have been wanting capelets for years

[rain cave]

I mentioned it the other day but I imagined the implied upcoming scarlet crusade resurgence having a conquistador/ inquisition theme

since we've not really seen that style

[young latch]

that would be cool

[rain cave]

would tie well into their political playing as well

instead of being predominantly knights just smiting undead they're a bunch of clergymen in flowing red robes

making power plays

giant hats

elegant iconography

[young latch]

all good things

we need more giant hats

[deep pawn]

Only reason I think we're getting partial revamps is the scarlet plot thread

Anduin is missing. Turalyon is very likely to be willing to listen to the scarlets

But it'd probably be a Cersei and Sparrows situation

[young latch]

i'm not convinced the will ever want to villain bat a main character again

which may or may not be good

[deep pawn]

Turalyon is hardly main character

[young latch]

he's the leader of the alliance rn i'd say he's a main character

[deep pawn]

I think he'll do all the bad things for the right reasons leading to a fall from grace.

But he's definitely going to be part of the light vs void war.

[young latch]

i'm predicting something dumber: baine tuns evil

[deep pawn]

And the light is not our friend

[rain cave]

"I always get dragged into shit for no reason when you guys are around fuck this"

[young latch]

wait

okay no, lorthemar is gonna be evil instead

[trail knot]

The bad guy in dragonflight is undead deathwing

[rain cave]

Lorthremar is one of the more level headed people is he not

[young latch]

exactly

which is why he will turn evil

b/c he's in charge of the sunwell also

[rain cave]

in cata his mage was meant to turn evil as well as the benedictus guy right

[young latch]

which the light and void will come after

[rain cave]

I'm curious as to how the sunwell even works

is it just an infinite font of power?

if so why tf

[young latch]

it's bottled well of eternity juice

that got defiled and then sanctified by naarus

[rain cave]

it's going to be a weird time if they ever follow up on the whole sunwell void thing

is it just going to be void elf recruiting day then

I am interested to see where alleria goes, if she will at some point lose control

even if it's triggered by something else

like seeing what turalyon is doing should he go off the edge

but they still work well in tandom which is interesting

they still very much are in similar lines of thinking in terms of going from doing X task

they just use different powers

so unless he injures arator by accident, or some other thing like that, it might be hard for turalyon to do anything that really alienates her

and that potential story works both ways

turalyon could snap after something with alleria, or vice versa

so who y'all betting on?

[young latch]

both of them can't be evil b/c they're alliance

alleria will have to rejoin he horde first before she can be evil, then she is lootable

[rain cave]

I mean

I think they're setting it up so that PvP in future is officially faction splinter groups

as opposed to primary faction activity

but who knows

I could see the alliance being painted as having bad actors this time

[deep pawn]

They're gonna be edgy and have light guy be evil and void lady be our hero

Locus walker and Umbric are expendable though

The naaru of the other timeline are more aggressive. If there's a Xe ra Turalyon will want to side with her.

That plus angry scarlets, greymane, and even Tyrande, who knows.

I still think Greymane could be executed by Turalyon for not being willing to do something in the name of the light

[cunning fossil]

I don't think they'd merc Greymane like that

[glass flicker]

They might so Tess could take over.

Because what did Greymane want? Sylvanas gone.

[young latch]

me at tess

[cunning fossil]

That's the Tess' fault

That's the writer's fault

[young latch]

that's true

[cunning fossil]

She and Taelia are being set up to be Anduin's love interests apparently

So they won't be given actual character

Also it would've been cool if she decided to take on the curse

[young latch]

i miss lorna crowley tbqh

all of the crowley's are more appealing to me than the greymanes

iconic????

[glass flicker]

Lorna had so much more character than Tess.

[cunning fossil]

Oh 100%

But again

That's the writers

Tess could have a LOT of character

If she was simply used better

And more oftem

[glass flicker]

Seeing her as a rogue in Legion was cool.

[deep pawn]

I hope Blizzard goes for Anduin not wanting either. He'd do it for the kingdom, but it'd just be duty I think.

[young latch]

tbqh i like that the minor noblewoman with gun got more attention than the crown princess

[glass flicker]

And the "Even a princess knows how to twist a blade" voice line is awesome.

But why underuse her?

[deep pawn]

Tess was big in the rogue story, but she just wasn't needed for BFA

Her spot was filled by Taelia

[young latch]

she's not in the rogue story if you aren't an alliance character

[cunning fossil]

Oh my God that qould be cool.

Give Anduin some actual regular Teenage shit to deal with

Instead of constantly nearly dying

[deep pawn]

Anduin has shown interest in was it a dwarf or a tauren?

[cunning fossil]

I thought it was a Thaurissain's daughter?

[deep pawn]

But his only actual in game chemistry has been with Wrathion

[cunning fossil]

Which, ironically, they want to stomp out

Which is really dumb

It's literally easy money blizzard

EASY MONEY

You can make the guys give you their overstuffed wallets for Wranduin Merch

[deep pawn]

Oh we all know Wrathion is gonna get Anduin from the Maw when he needs him.

[cunning fossil]

Would be nice

Watch Anduin get someone with like

0 chemistry

I don't want it to be Taelia. As much as I like her

[glass flicker]

I want Lorna to lead Gilneas. Kill Greymane, make Tess relinquish the throne.

Lorna for Queen.

[deep pawn]

There is no Gilneas right now but maybe with the Lordaeron revamp

[young latch]

anduin gonna have heterosexual babies with tess. one will have light powers. the other shadow. they will be named varian and genn wrynn.

[glass flicker]

No.

[deep pawn]

Oh I can definitely seeing him having kids out of duty.

He'd hate it though

[glass flicker]

They will have two children. An older daughter, Tiffin, and a younger son, Liam.

[young latch]

they will have matching bracelets. the bracelets will say "moon brother"

[cunning fossil]

Eww lol

[glass flicker]

That's literally Vereesa.

Alleria literally calls Vereesa "Lady Moon"

And Vereesa calls Alleria "Lady Sun"

[young latch]

turns out vereesa is their daughter due to an amusing mix up with time travel

[glass flicker]

Oh my fuck.

Please stop.

[cunning fossil]

Lmao

[deep pawn]

Its gonna be fun restoring the aspects, making Nozdormu turn, and then set up the light invasion.

[glass flicker]

Maybe give Ysera's daughter some characterization and a new model.

[deep pawn]

Kalec too

[young latch]

kalec needs one bad

that's a crayon kid if ever i saw one

[glass flicker]

How many of you know Ysera's daughter's name without looking it up?

[cunning fossil]

Lmaoo

[cunning fossil]

Not me lol

Is it

Yser?

[young latch]

i kinda wanna guess it

[cunning fossil]

Dream wing or something?

[deep pawn]

Merithra

[glass flicker]

You looked it up.

[young latch]

I'm guessing sera

[deep pawn]

I did when dragonflight got leaked

[glass flicker]

No, Kyle was right.

[cunning fossil]

Lmak

[young latch]

i don't care that he's right

how many daughters does she have

[cunning fossil]

Uhh

[young latch]

i thought dragons usually have like 200 kids

[glass flicker]

Nah that's just Alexstasza.

She's canonically a hoe.

[cunning fossil]

She's canonical a rape victim. Very different

[glass flicker]

Alexstasza is the one WoW character that would unironically have an OnlyFans.

[rain cave]

🍿

[glass flicker]

Yea but we don't bring that up.

[young latch]

i don't know anything about this character tbh

[cunning fossil]

It's one for the most important parts of her character though...

[rain cave]

I love the life fire thing

[cunning fossil]

Like no. She ain't a whore :P

Fire of life is cool

[rain cave]

in heroes of the storm she can do a lot of damage whilst also healing

like idk how to explain it but

[glass flicker]

The story doesn't convey it properly but it'd be pretty messed up for the younger audience.

[rain cave]

because it's healing fire, watching it do damage makes it feel like it's actually more scorching than normal fire

law of contrast I suppose

[glass flicker]

Tfw Bolvar was turned into a crispy Boi.

[young latch]

whenever i look at bolvar i get hungry for roasted chicken

[rain cave]

everyone has to be told not to mention the bacon smell

[cunning fossil]

The younger audience of this game when it came out was able to say the N word with jo remorse.

Also what younger audience is coming to the game

[rain cave]

was?

[cunning fossil]

I've yet to meet anyone under the age of 16 start playing this game

[young latch]

tbh i am okay with this

[cunning fossil]

I say, as someone who st a rated playing at like 13-14

[glass flicker]

Bet. My cousin's 13 year old son did.

[rain cave]

I technically started playing at like

8

[cunning fossil]

Oh I getchas.

[rain cave]

though that was more levelling and stuff

[young latch]

i didn't start wow until my 20's

[rain cave]

but I really got into it around WoD's launch

[cunning fossil]

Lol George is OLD

Haha

[young latch]

damn right

[cunning fossil]

Lmao I joke with u

[rain cave]

tbh there's like a threshold

old gamers are chill

at my uni the oldest lecturer is my favourite

old game artist/ designer dude

[deep pawn]

Alex is the lifebinder but she is also fire since fire is life.

[rain cave]

her and yseras lines kind of blur

and it raises interesting questions

[young latch]

nothing about the dragons ever made sense honestly

[deep pawn]

Greens are the dream itself and I guess the cycle

Where Alex is just life and cleansing rot.

Bronze is time, blue is magic, and black was earth.

[young latch]

you'd think time travel would require magic tho

[deep pawn]

Blue might more specifically be arcane

They've blurred it before

[young latch]

time magic is also associated with arcane tho

the dragons were never well thought out i don't think

[rain cave]

well maybe it's moreso they represent more different things but just ordered

maybe the natural state isn't bronze dragonfight, and ordered chrono magic

maybe things are meant to be infinite

like the void forsees

whereas the blue dragonflight are the pure arcane magic representatives

[deep pawn]

I'd enjoy watching a conversation between the void and fel pantheon. Both consume, both appear chaotic at times.

Assuming pure chaos can even have a pantheon

[rain cave]

there's even an argument to be made that alextrasa could just be an ordered fel being

which sounds terrible at first

but sargeras was a big red fiery guy

red fel fire is still an interesting thing

and my best guess is that the red fire is like

ordered chaos?

I suppose

since sargeras was a titan, being of order.

and his entire section of antorus was red titan designs

and life is chaotic by nature as well

perhaps the titan cosmology chart is split by the natural states of order/disorder as opposed to everything being unique

like you order chaos to get life,

and the shadowlands don't really show things like decay, undead, necromantic as much

that's only maldraxxus

and because maldraxxus is a thing that could be native to the shadowlands

maybe that is the natural order of things, with the devourers and the maldraxxus

and the ordered shadowlands was intended to bring it in line with the left side of the cosmology chart that the beings of order want

and the brokers already being things of order who resent the titans, they have a different perspective as they are centered within the realm of death despite being orderly

one big difference is how the titans see life and order being more closely related to water, whilst the brokers see shadow as closer to water

[cunning fossil]

First Ones = Titans pls

[rain cave]

nah not titans

maybe above that sure

but I'm betting it's more of a split between this

blue triangle is what zereth mortis looks most like a combination of

in terms of the first ones stuff

lines up well with elunes power too

so there might be some duality

again the broker chart splits it this same way but down the center this time

something else to note I suppose is how the brokers actually link their domains together slightly

as opposed to having them as independent separate bubbles going central

each force overlaps with the next

[cunning fossil]

https://twitter.com/MMOChampion/status/1511854251315769345?t=kMBrmqWqd2faquSZkqXaqg&s=19

MMO-Champion (@MMOChampion)

Patch 9.2.5 - New Report UI and Character Report Options - https://t.co/Qj2tWYBWlN

Twitter · Apr 6, 2022, 11:51 PM

He'll yeah

I can report people for leaving a key

Probably

Idon't care I will anyways

[rain cave]

was once doing a key with my friend, we started the key and the tank + 1dps demanded we give them leads or they'll leave

@cunning fossil

we did

then because they didn't like how my friend was playing, even though he was carrying hard. They kicked him

from his own key

just before the last boss

they should just lock the party leader after key starts

it was wild

[cunning fossil]

Lmao

M+ is such a circus

And the community is ETERNALLY toxic

[strange falcon]

The question is, if they hired more GMs, or these reports fall into the document shredder

[deep pawn]

I think Maldraxxus represents Chaos in death

Ardenweald life, the Cartels order.

Bastion is a lot of order too though.

[rain cave]

I mean bastion is about blind devotion originally

which you could say is similar to the lights mentality

[deep pawn]

Light and Void appear to be the biggest forces missing. The devourers are a mix of void and chaos though

[rain cave]

firim talks about the "thousand truths"

which to me sounds very void like

the fact that there's a lot of things that look similar to ordered light or something in zereth mortis and the first ones tech

and that void calls naaru lost brothers

[cunning fossil]

The cartels are unrelated to death tho

[rain cave]

maybe the void are more aware of their first ones origins

[young latch]

venari just fell down a ditch i guess; kinda hoping she comes back into the picture

[deep pawn]

Brokers are said to be natives of the SL, it's unclear.

[rain cave]

that's why the titans are so scared of the void

they've broken their shackles

they're too self aware for order

[deep pawn]

But Brokers could still be related to Ethereals which could lend them towards void.

[cunning fossil]

True

[rain cave]

similar accents, no bodies

yeah I can see it

[deep pawn]

Brokers SEE themselves as representing order though

[rain cave]

because they resent the titans

[plain violet]

Brokers are from the Shadowlands, yes.

This is also why they did searched the Sepulcher : why do they exist, what are their origins.

[deep pawn]

Would be ironic if the first ones created energy beings in every realm.

[plain violet]

And what is The First Ones, those strange "ruins" in some worlds of the Shadowlands when they traveled.

[rain cave]

maybe the purpose is literally their name

[deep pawn]

Ethereals, Brokers, watch voidwalkers be the void version

[rain cave]

they are brokers between forces

[plain violet]

Maybe they will be really ironic Kyle, yes...
In some part, the disappearing of the First Ones is already the sign that it was never meant to endure.

[rain cave]

inb4 there will a last first one

though I would imagine it being like encountering the leviathan in mass effect

yes they're extremely important, they've set up the whole story

[deep pawn]

There is a first one, it's Azeroth, it's why she's so important

[rain cave]

but it's the last one, it's dying

azeroth is just a world soul atm, which could be related

like all the first ones became world souls

or something

because they've been broadening the application of world souls more and more, they're not just titans

[deep pawn]

The titans think she's a normal world soul, but she's apparently more special than they are.

[rain cave]

holy shit imagine a class skin for shamans about azerite lmao

and you get all the pretty azerite effects

[deep pawn]

"THE WOONS"

[rain cave]

CHAMPYUN

[deep pawn]

Magni will show up and lick you

[rain cave]

but if the division between the two first one types being potentially a thing

like how there's 2 different colours of titan

there's the split in the cosmological charts

order light death being the "orderly" side

and that being predominantly yellow

what if the blue in azerite, is meant to represent the other part

because zereth mortis specifically is predominantly gold

whereas oribos is a combination of gold and blue at times

the portal in the maw has blue

so first ones overall perhaps divided like the gold and blue titans(aenir and vanir)

there's also the hints of ragnarok being seeded as a story ark

the burning world tree, the realms colliding, the mentions of a serpent

"The wolves Skoll and Hati, who have hunted the sun and the moon through the skies since the beginning of time, will at last catch their prey. The stars, too, will disappear, leaving nothing but a black void in the heavens. Yggdrasil, the great tree that holds the cosmos together, will tremble, and all the trees and even the mountains will fall to the ground. The chain that has been holding back the monstrous wolf Fenrir will snap, and the beast will run free. Jormungand, the mighty serpent who dwells at the bottom of the ocean and encircles the land, will rise from the depths, spilling the seas over all the earth as he makes landfall."

now that elunes lore is rampign up, we could easily see stuff with the moon and sun. The stars may fade from consumption by the void, even says void in the text there. We already have a burned world tree that fell. The first ones mechanism has been hinted to be damaged, the chain has "snapped" and now the devourers might be running free to consume. The hinted at 7th cosmic force, the serpent that we can also see in the broker cosmology chart and oribos.

alternatively, galakrond could be either the serpent or fenrir in this case

not to mention how sargeras was literally a fiery giant who plunged his sword into our planet

"The dome of the sky will be split, and from the crack shall emerge the fire-giants from Muspelheim. Their leader shall be Surt, with a flaming sword brighter than the sun in his hand"

crack in the sky? an army of fire?

sounds like legion to me

that was even the expansion we got odyn, and the rendition of valhalla/asgard

says odin will fight fenrir

we already know odin hates dragons somewhat

next expansion being dragonflight, odin will probably appear

and if galakrond is representing fenrir, that's another direct lineup

thoughts?

[deep pawn]

Was the "Dread Portal" in Zereth ever used?

or is that how Zovaal entered

Does Odyn hate dragons? If anything he might resent them being picked as the guardians over his family

[rain cave]

Yes that's why he's on bad terms with the other keepers

He didn't want to empower the dragons

[deep pawn]

I'd say there's no way we fight him a third time, but who knows

[rain cave]

@deep pawn no I don't mean WE fight him

I meant he fights galakrond

because if galakrond = fenrir, and he's the closest analogy we have

or chromatus

or whatever

in ragnarok odin fights fenrir

and in WoW already, odyn doesn't like dragons as much, he's skeptical

they set him up as having his main dividing point compared to the other keepers be dragons

so if we do get galakrond or chromatus or whatever, expect odin to appear

and maybe die

if they want to stick to the ragnarock themes

[deep pawn]

My guess is DF is about restoring the aspects

he didn't want them empowered once

[rain cave]

nah I doubt it's about powering them up again in a literal sense

maybe more about finding them a way to properly thrive

reconnect

I think there's a line illidan says that sums up their story direction

[deep pawn]

Nozdormu needs his power restored at the very least

[rain cave]

something like "the only ones who can save us are ourselves"