#beta-ptr-spoilers

1 messages · Page 609 of 1

cunning fossil
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Still, kinda trash.

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They don't want a war in the comments section. And since it's. Afar more nuanced topic, it's safer to just day that this ain't the place rather than please both, very opposite, sides of the spectru..

subtle oar
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-.-

left arch
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tbh the 'removed content' convos are never good and always lead to arguments so its for the best lol

cunning fossil
misty blaze
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I won't do no harm to alleria even though she has void like powers she is my elf waifu

subtle oar
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Double negative, you would harm her cx

high pike
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just went to the PTR and was shocked how well the weapon I got from there matches the set.

Warlock_mage_tower_armor_set_front.PNG
mossy meteor
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thank you

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maybe i can finally stop ignoring the channel then

cunning fossil
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Lmao nope

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There is little else to discuss to be perfectly honest

mossy meteor
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just waiting for mage tower tbh

high pike
coral halo
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Ye they should really do something about that, if you miss one opportunity you will have to wait for half a year to play that content again in that specific shape or form,i heard ppl suggest that timewalking should be on a weekly rotation, this way we would go through a tw rotation a 1 1/2 months

high pike
high pike
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Are they really going to try to equalize the ilvl of everyone to the same level so everyone is at the same ilvl to make it fair for the mage tower? That sounds really broken lol

dense plover
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because you cant out level it?

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thats not broken, thats letting you try at its intended difficulty

high pike
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So basically it wont matter if your in maxed out mythic gear your getting put at the same ilvl as everyone regardless of your efforts in the game

dense plover
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its about skill

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not gear

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welcome to the original intention for the mage tower when it launched

high pike
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I already have the weapon appearance for every class from back then i remember how it was

dense plover
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then i dont understand the problem

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they dont want this to be easy - they want to replicate the original challenge

high pike
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same challenge just at a much lower power level its fine ill still do it. Just wont like it as much

high pike
dense plover
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im sure its going to be balanced appropriately

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the scaling isnt the same as timewalking

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it isnt just scaling you down

high pike
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I hope they get it right we have seen how balancing has played out in the past so it should be fun

austere gazelle
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They' re disabling all the covenant content... Dh will be ripped off if it's not balanced

upper lantern
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I'm guessing legendaries and azerite gear will be disabled too

glass flicker
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It sounds disappointing that I'll have to relearn how to play my spec, instead of relying on Condemn spam. You reap what you sow, I guess.

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Truth be told, I'm more excited about the DK set than the warrior set. There's not a lot of gold, white and red items to match it.

upper lantern
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The only sets I'm excited about are DK, Priest and Warlock. But I still want to beat all 7 challenges again

glass flicker
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I think I'll leave out Druid and DH. Really not into those classes.

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One has too many buttons, the other, too few.

upper lantern
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DH is generally a good candidate for the tank challenge. You can leap back if one of the infernals yeet you out of the platform

light compass
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Firemage without the optimal legendarys was a little bit of a challenge without them

terse patrol
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Oh good, maybe they can actually announce 9.2 finally.

glass flicker
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What do you mean?

cosmic beacon
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mage tower is in the ptr soon

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which is like the final major thing being added

upper lantern
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Release date is out. november 2nd

high pike
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Mage tower is aids right now farming final raids of mythic legion now to optimize my item level and gear for it

upper lantern
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Azerite seems to be working according to some people but not sure if this will work on live

subtle oar
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Called it

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November 2nd

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Been saying that since ptr went live

terse patrol
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Isn’t that around Endwalker?

subtle oar
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It's before endwalker

terse patrol
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Whens Endwalker out?

subtle oar
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23rd with early access on the 19th

terse patrol
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Ah.

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Surprised they didn’t do the usual “compete with popular release” thing.

upper pasture
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and they changed how often we get TW weeks too

subtle oar
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There's no way 9.1.5 could compete

upper pasture
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The weekly bonus events schedule has been adjusted and now Timewalking dungeon events will occur every three weeks (was alternating every third or fourth week).

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i agree 9.1.5 does a lot of things but its not actual content for everyone

terse patrol
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Seems like 9.2 may release in March if we’re lucky??? It would line up with the Sylvanas book being delayed.

subtle oar
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Only if we get a 9.2 announcement soon

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9.2 would need 3 months testing

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Bare minimum

upper pasture
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i could see them doing a 9.2 announcement on or near the 19th/23rd

subtle oar
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If they try to save 9.2 announcement for February, Slands is done

upper pasture
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not that they would be able to give a lot of details on it until later but an attempt to steal some of the thunder from endwalker they could drop a trailer of the jailer arriving out of his portal

upper lantern
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wow lol healer mage tower is hard

coral halo
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It wasnt meant to be easy

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But they are doable

left arch
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Wait the patch is releasing November 2nd?

glass flicker
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Yes.

left arch
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Ok ty

strange falcon
terse patrol
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WoW can’t really compete with bunny boys.

strange falcon
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Only thing holding a lot of ppl back from bunnybois is hats

left arch
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The og starting gear will be missed

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But excited for the possible new starting gear designs

frank cove
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Isn’t a new expansion being announced soon? Isn’t there one every two years?

silent urchin
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probably at blizzconline early next year

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hopefully 9.2 would be out by then, and they'd give us a bunch of stuff on 9.3, and more of a tease on the expansion

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or whatever changes they've made to patch schedule

strange falcon
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9.2 out by then is a very optimistic estimate

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Dont think there will be a 9.3 at all if they want to keep the strict 2yrs expac

frank cove
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Really excited to see what they have planned for 10.0. Hopefully it doesn’t flop

left arch
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tbh all i wanted was new stuff for the races

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and thats coming in the newest patch so im satisfied

subtle oar
dense plover
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.2s usually have a much larger zone

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korthia is mechagon, not nazjatar

terse patrol
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T&E had a good point where it seems like they likely merged the important parts of the original plans for 9.2 into 9.1.

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And 9.2 is going to be the original 9.3

subtle oar
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^

mossy meteor
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i'd settle for a 3 year SL

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if it means 10.0 will be extra polished

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to avoid any of the pitfalls that SL had

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besides, if they're so slow with SL content updates, what makes anyone think a new xpac would launch at the end of 2022

warm shore
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Because shareholders and such want money real fast regardless of quality?

strange falcon
subtle oar
strange falcon
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i mean that's what they did for wod xd

mossy meteor
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I don't trust towelie even if he would say "it's gonna rain tomorrow"

strange falcon
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but still,broken trust is going to be very hard to rebuild,they went too far over the line for a lot of people

subtle oar
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Ummm, Towelie is literally the most trusted voice in the community

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the fuck?

mossy meteor
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Really

subtle oar
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Yes

mossy meteor
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According to who

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What metrics

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What's his track record of "predictions"

subtle oar
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Ah, trolling. Got it

mossy meteor
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Because anyone with a large following can make shit up

subtle oar
mossy meteor
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I trust him as much as I would trust random 4chan / mmochamp leaks

subtle oar
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Imagine comparing Towelie to 4chan. Fucking yikes.

mossy meteor
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Literally every major content creator or wf raider has contacts within blizzard

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What makes him so special

subtle oar
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No wonder why I had you blocked on my main acc

mossy meteor
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Why wouldn't the "sources" give the info to the others

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If it's so easy to "share"

upper pasture
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Honestly I wish blizzard would do something akin to what CoD does and just have two teams (instead of developers) working on two different expansions at a time. That way they released 9 and then get started on 11 and so forth. Alternating which team does the release and then have a team giving them story points to anchor the story to and then expansions could get more development time without long patch times or downtime

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But nothing is gonna be perfect so even that could/would have flaws

left arch
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I feel like that could maybe cause some conflict, but also I know nothing of that huge of a project and how they work amongst together

random musk
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Towelie also didn’t know SL was going to be as bad as it is.

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Nonetheless. I’m sure he has some contacts .. but I’m doubtful it’s always unbiased information

storm marsh
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I'm not really a fan of that streamer, but I can confirm he was right for many stuff before it got announced. Such as days for announcements.

left arch
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I don’t watch any wow streamer or anything like that

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I love wow itself but I personally get bored watching others play it

dense plover
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lots of the datamining community predicted nov 2 9.1.5 due to preceding patch updates

storm marsh
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I'm talking about announcement days

cunning fossil
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Binding Shot (Talent) root effect can now break upon receiving enough damage. Damage threshold to break is higher than other roots.

Developers’ note: We recognize that Binding Shot has become part of a Hunter’s utility package and want it to remain a powerful root that has a lower chance to break on damage than other effects.

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Fuck this change.
Literally why.

dense plover
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thats a neccesary change

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it was the only root that didnt have a way out

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it was OP af in pvp

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also pretty broken in raids and dungeons

cunning fossil
# dense plover thats a neccesary change

Are you saying that melee classes don't have multiple ways to get out of roots? I don't think that's true.

Are you kidding with the broken in raids and dungeons bit? With this change, it'll be a worse Vortex.

It was not broken at all. It's a talent for 2 specs and inherent to a middle of the road one (MM).

Yes BM is out of control in PvP but nerfing all the specs in their already Mediocre CC department is not the way to go about nerfing them

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Like I don't remember MM or SV dominating the ladder.

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I'm bot trying to be rude but honestly this change was unnecessary. Hunters are middle of the road why are we being nerfed while stronger classes are getting buffed?

runic spade
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its fair tbh

subtle oar
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🙄

cunning fossil
# runic spade its fair tbh

Do you not understand that this is for all hunters?? Not just BM?
Yes ok, Nwrf BM damage to reasonability but don't handicap every other hunter in ALL forms of content just because Venthyr BM is extremely good in Arena.

left arch
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Womp womp

pulsar minnow
cunning fossil
deep pawn
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Well rip 9.2 in February/March. I'm scared now haha

strange falcon
deep pawn
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coping mechanism

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I should just unsub cause 9.1.5 just isn't enough

warm shore
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They lost the vast majority of Staff responsible for important parts of several different games, did people really not see this coming?

strange falcon
deep pawn
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been on the tail end of a 6 month sub

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I haven't logged in for a month! 😦

left arch
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its been maybe almost a month since ive played

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but only bec of video game depression

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log onto a game, run around, and close it

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ill probably be better once my irl stuff gets better

deep pawn
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for just running around, I have more fun in 14

warm shore
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Me and my guildies still loggin in and doing stuff. We still wanna see the game get better and were trying to recruit people on our server for a friendly community that might wanna do M+ when we get enough people going

left arch
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well i love wow, its not like im not playing it bec i dont like it - that applies to every game rn, i just dont wanna play any games rn CB_panda_cry burned out

opaque pewter
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It's okay to take a break. Though understandably, a cadence break in anything is going to have some effect

subtle oar
deep pawn
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I'll probably log in on the 2nd just to convoke some in dungeons but sub ends on 3rd and I don't know if I care.

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I want to, but... Korthia is just Korthia

left arch
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You do you

subtle oar
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Woot!

cunning fossil
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😮

torn mesa
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Hey hey, quick question: With 9.1.5 the rating you need to unlock the Elite PvP Transmogg is increased, 1950 total, if you have the set before do you keep all the tmog or are the corresponding ones for 1950 removed again? Would be cheeky.

dense plover
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The changes only matter if you don’t have it

torn mesa
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I hope so, it would be quite annoying. Ty c:

deep pawn
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oh, there's Blizzard's typical competition release

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Seasons of Mastery 3 days before Endwalker

cunning fossil
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Ye

strange falcon
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I strongly doubt they can compete with endwalker to be fully honest

dense plover
strange falcon
dense plover
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They’re both for the same reason tho

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Q3 is in a few days

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Or weeks?

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Soon ™️

subtle oar
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Very soon

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Tm

pulsar minnow
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At this point I cannot be convinced that next Expansion WONT be Elune/Nature themed.

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First the birds, and now the cat?

subtle oar
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The store mounts do have a history of correlation with the following xpac

tepid fiber
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||Elune's vengeance for Teldrassil--other major forces see this as an opportunity to get in on the action and find out what the big deal is with this Azeroth place. Shit hits the fan and now everyone wants to gobble up that nascent world soul like an unattended child left with Baby Yoda. Sire Denathrius is now a regular member of the WoW rogue's gallery of antagonists, and aligns his dreadlords with Queen Azshara and a returned Xal'atath (now leading the remnants of the Twilight's Hammer cult because Old God shenanigans)||

upper pasture
tepid fiber
upper pasture
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but isn't this world soul stuff pretty much the same shit we've been dealing with since like TBC

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i guess since AQ too

tepid fiber
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I mean, it's definitely a reoccurring theme even in the current one

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Azeroth is a significantly powerful world soul that a lot of people want

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Well, "people"

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But you know what I mean

upper pasture
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i never thought i'd be one of those people that miss the old days of going to Onyxia's lair and trying to kill a dragon.

subtle oar
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This mount could have been tied to a fun questline but no, put it in the store...

upper pasture
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yeah but if it was in a quest they wouldn't make $25 a pop unless they timed gated it and made it take month and a half to complete

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but then they would have to deal with people crying about time gating another mount

left arch
subtle oar
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No thanks

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I want less cosmic

tepid fiber
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But it'd be an excuse for more Khadgar

warm shore
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My man khadgar comes in for 2 expacs, does cool magic stuff and then leaves with no explanation

pulsar minnow
upper pasture
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all i know with that subtext on the new mount there better be less birds

tepid fiber
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I think it's to make the cat lovers not feel neglected over the popularity of dognoodles

strange falcon
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I've seen at least 2 people go from "shitting on blizzard constantly every day" to "immediately resubbing and buying the store mount in a feral frenzy like its black friday and they have to get the last ps5 in the store" because the mount is a cute cat

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And im not exaggerating at all

upper pasture
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Ah yes, flipfloppers. Honestly I can’t say I’m surprised. People just like to have something to talk about.

silent urchin
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it is a pretty cute cat, ngl

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Also do we speculate about the next expansion based on it

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given the previous store mounts have been regular mobs in the following expansion

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Although not sure how much you can speculate off a giant kitten with a nightborne-esque saddle

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But goddammit I'm gonna do it anyway

pulsar minnow
# silent urchin But goddammit I'm gonna do it anyway

As I said, all I can think of is Elune/Lifelands. We've had so many reveals regarding how the Cycle of Life and Death works, now we have the question of what Anima is looming, the reveal of Elune's cosmological alignment, and the two store mounts leaning on a nature theme

cunning fossil
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More out of this world stuff that makes everything qe've done and everything we've met smaller and smaller.

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Personally I don't think that's a good thing

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Sure for the big lore nerds it'll be amazing and stuff but like

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In-game the story feels like a grind.

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You do a thing and the villain says "it was merely a setback" or "this is inevitable. You fight for nothing"
And everything you tried to do in that patch lorewise was for naught

pulsar minnow
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cough Winter Queen literally just forgetting about her sigil cough

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or even better, BRINGING THE SIGIL INTO TORGHAST????

cunning fossil
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Winter Queen didn't forget her sigil did she?

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I don't remember that part

cunning fossil
pulsar minnow
cunning fossil
pulsar minnow
cunning fossil
strange falcon
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The focus of wow was never the story,and when they tried to make the story the main focus,they realized their infrastructure was either highly lacking(like poor camera movement in cutscenes) or highly outdated(goofy facial animations in cutscenes)

glass flicker
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Which could be fixed by adding more in game cinematics, but that would cause crunch within the art and sound design teams.

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It's never a good idea to overwork your employees. At the same time, you can't only let them do the bare minimum.

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What WoW needs is less outside sources for lore. Make reading quests skippable only the second time. That way, people don't just accept quests without reading them.

strange falcon
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"Just" adding more cinematics isnt going to magically fix the story,when it already barely makes sense or is full of plotholes and is retconned every patch

glass flicker
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That's on the writers. They leave these plotholes, loose threads, retcon lore they forget or think is outdated or bad, etc.

strange falcon
glass flicker
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I say those people should grow up.

strange falcon
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You dont just change a 17year old habit overnight,they've been trained for almost 2 decades to skip quest text because its useless anyway, that isnt going to change easily

strange falcon
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Saying "you're going out?" "Im going to .....,you'll find that later" doesnt build suspense,it actually damages the story

glass flicker
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I think they should just have every issue solved in the patch it's introduced in, with the next thread being built up in the .5 patches.

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It would fix some issues, while also giving .5 patches context.

strange falcon
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Instead of telling 1 story,that goes from 9.0 to the ending patch,and then gets cut in half because the expac is going on too long so they need to cut a patch out,

Just make 9.0 its own story from start to finish,that leads into 9.1s story

glass flicker
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Or, go with my idea.

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9.0 is its own threat, 9.0.5 sets up 9.1, 9.1 is over, 9.1.5 sets up 9.2, etc.

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Have these smaller patches mean more than just some fixes and convenience. Three to four quests is fine. Like the Mal'Ganis grimoire quest.

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That could have been saved for 9.1.5 to set up 9.2.

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That way, there are less long-lasting cliffhangers and chances to retcon lore, with more time to think things through.

strange falcon
glass flicker
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Yeah, I've noticed most WoW streamers don't know squats about WoW lore.

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Like Asmongold, saying "Whot? I didn't know tha!" every time he watches a WoW lore video.

strange falcon
glass flicker
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I think they just pay more attention to chat, their camera, their voice, and their gameplay, to notice such a trivial thing as the story.

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Videos are better than streams. Don't at me.

strange falcon
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Videos are generally scripted

glass flicker
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Which is why the player in question can pay more attention to the game.

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Play the game, pay attention to the story, script your thoughts, make the video.

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It's a lengthy process, but it's easier to pull off. Besides, streaming nowadays is full of obscure nonsense.

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Bathtub streams, eating streams, etc.

strange falcon
glass flicker
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I just hate that streamers complain about YouTubers having it easy. When a YouTuber can spend up to a month preparing for a video.

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Meanwhile, the streamer gets on facecam for 5-8 hours a day, eats, takes a bath, plays games, interacts with a chat full of people, and is generally more active.

strange falcon
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They are more or less equally hard,
The streamer has to entertain people consistently for 5-8 hrs, which is not easy

The youtuber has to put in the work on editing and working on a video,but they have no strict timeframe

glass flicker
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Both can cause burnout, which sucks.

subtle oar
# glass flicker I say those people should grow up.

Yikes. Not even FFXIV takes this stance. There is no "grow up,", don't be disingenuous. No one us being immature, you just disagree with how those kinds of players wish to play. Even the FFXIV devs don't take your position.

glass flicker
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More people would be interested in the lore if it were enforced a little bit. Voice acting, mandatory quest reading, cinematics, etc.

strange falcon
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mandatory quest reading is not what encourages someone already averted to the lore,to get more interested in it,voice acting and cinematics,sure

glass flicker
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Honestly, imagine zones with an awesome story like Silverpine or Highmountain, but with cinematics.

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Have Godfrey shoot Sylvanas in an actual cinematic, or a fight between Dargrul and Ebonhorn.

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Alas, justice was stolen from us back in Cata. Godfrey was right.

strange falcon
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blizzard backed themselves in a corner of their own making tbh,
they suddenly wanted to have more focus on the story,but the writers certainly havent pulled through with that,
they cant work on the engine to make it more story-friendly because they know if they shut down wow for 1 day,all the people addicted will suddenly regain their sense, they are already 15year deep into another story so they cant really throw the old characters out

glass flicker
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As the famous, now infamous Void once told Alleria:

strange falcon
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it all stacks up,that's why they've been trying to retcon lore at every occasion they get,but that just angers the lore fans

glass flicker
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"Kill her. Kill her. Murder her. Save yourself and murder her. Save the world and murder her."

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Alleria fucked up.

strange falcon
glass flicker
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Yea. But it's still canon.

strange falcon
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90% of players dont know about it,which is why teldrassil came as out of nowhere to the great majority of the playerbase,because the setup was all in a book

glass flicker
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Also, Sylvanas was a fish in Vereesa's vision of the afterlife. In Ardenweald.

strange falcon
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if you want players to care about the story,you cant put all the major plot points in 20 books

glass flicker
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FISH, I SAY!

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Sylvanas vs Saurfang, 2021 colorized.

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I guess Sylmurky is canon.

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Gillvanas.

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[Gillvanas]

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Yes, indeed.

haughty houndBOT
balmy gate
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I think the pitfall in the story isn't the story itself, but how they have it presented in-game. The writers know the full story, and so they put snippets and major points in the game, and to them it makes perfect sense because they know the whole story. Whereas players do not know all the behind the scene story, and so when they see those major points and snippets, it leaves them utterly confused or forces players to try an interpret motives and things that aren't explicitly in the game.

This is why the novels work well, because there is so much detail. It lets you get inside the major characters' minds, hear their thoughts, etc. However, this amount of detail ought to be available in-game. Like Jaina meeting up with Uther in Korthia. That is a HUGE moment for those two characters, but you only get the dialogue in-game or a bit of text. In a novel, you get to know all their inner thoughts and feelings in those moments allowing you to truly appreciate the weight of moments like that. If they could figure out a way to get more text in-game, I think that would be best.

Cinematics and voiced dialogue are great additions at the surface of gameplay, but for the lore-loving fanatics, they should make available more text-based story in the game. Maybe it could be an interface where you click on an NPC, and as you complete quests and progress through the story it unlocks more text to go back and read. Give all major character's a diary/journal of sorts so we can see what their motives were or how they feel about the events that are happening or have happened.

Let the gameplay story remain as it should from the perspective of your own character. Your character can't read minds so it makes sense they would only see the dialogue and events portrayed in cinematics. BUT, let the player have the extra text to delve deeper into the why's, thoughts, feelings, motives with those text being gated behind progress points in gameplay.

sullen dawn
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But they can defo do it. ESO storytelling is amazing

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Everything is explained to me, at the exact right pace, without any cinematics

cosmic beacon
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So they’ve removed the ability to skip the 9.0 cov campaigns

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Damn I was getting excited for 9.1.5

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Now if you want the renown and to be able to do the 9.1 campaign you still have to complete it

cunning fossil
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Oh separate characters?

cosmic beacon
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on alts and mains sad

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not a big issue for my mains since most have got all covenents high renown and campaign done but it sucks for the characters im waiting to gear

strange falcon
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And you need 80 renown to switch freely,which means only ppl who are uptodate will be able to do it

cosmic beacon
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hopefully they reverse it like they did for hunter binding shot changes

pulsar minnow
strange falcon
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I thought the last 6 years would have told you why

pulsar minnow
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and then I'm really unsure if I'll even get 10.0

strange falcon
sullen dawn
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Halo infinite for me

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Technical test was great. Will hold me over until next exp

amber glen
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they will teach the game Add to friends my name is lila

sullen dawn
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No

dusk creek
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Hey Folks, Had some issues finding an answer, is the horde allied race restrictions being removed next patch much like the alliances ones?

dense plover
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theyre changing all of them

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theyre not fully removing them though

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theyre just removing the dungeons

tepid fiber
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Or, at least, giving you a dialog option to skip the dungeon quest

cunning fossil
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Le fuck is this?

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I have never seen Ion so short

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like

tepid fiber
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I mean, EVE has had a similar thing for years

cunning fossil
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No no I didn't mean to sound negative

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this just came from left field

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And hey tbh it sounds like somethign I can get behind

tepid fiber
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It seems like good optics

cunning fossil
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"Feedback from players helps us make improvements to the game"

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I can't help but kek W

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True. But I'll still try to have a tiny bit of optimism in me

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ION'S MIC

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HOw does he raid with that??!

tepid fiber
#

I wasn't implying something negative

cunning fossil
#

But yeah I getcha Gum

tepid fiber
#

Mhm

#

But yeah, you can look at the similar thing EVE has and how it's worked for them. Different kind of game and environment, but still, first thing that comes to mind

cunning fossil
#

TBH this sounds really good

#

IF

#

this works

subtle oar
#

Oh I see this being used for political ends. This won't end well for everyone involved.

cunning fossil
pulsar minnow
#

People have been suggesting this sorta stuff for years. Glad it’s happening.

slender ember
#

A part of me wants to remain hopeful but the other part feels that since they'll be picking and choosing it would be easy for them to just pick the people who they know would easier align with them and their values

dense plover
#

i mean - even if they do, everyone they pick wont have the same opinions about everything

#

its literally impossible for them to pick people who yes man every aspect

slender ember
#

We will see how it goes then

strange falcon
#

I mean,the funny thing is, they already HAD a player/dev "council",and they had a special section of the wow forums just for them but they started completely ignoring it in mop, then fired majority of class devs start of wod,then fire most of their gms in bfa

#

History is repeating itself,until it isnt
I am unconvinced

next crown
#

healer tier list 9.1.5 when? ><

dense plover
#

So this should lead to better variety

strange falcon
#

They get bored of listening to feedback after 1 patch and ignore it

cunning fossil
#

I'm gonna give em a chance at least.
I get that everyone's gonna be a cynic about this, I myself am leaning on that. But this is an avenue to hopefully make the game better, so I'm for it.

#

There should be a balanced perspective of people from all content, professionals as well as those who lean more casually.

#

I doubt 100 people are gonna agree that anything blizzard makes on their own is 100% perfect, so this is more Hopeful than it being a bunch of yes men.

#

I don't get why people.would hate T&E being in there. They've been critical of the game before, they're far from Blizzard yesmen

strange falcon
#

wdym,they are blizzard yesmen that occasionally bash the game without meaning it

cunning fossil
#

They have talked about the game and it's problems extensively just because they aren't angry all the time and yell about it doesn't mean they aren't critical.

#

Not everyone on that council needs to be some guy who hates the devs guts or is harsh on everything the devs do to be good

#

T & E, IMO, aren't yes men..I've yet to see them say shit is ok. They acknowledge it is, they actively say it isn't. They aren't going around saying "WoW's great guys. You all are just being babies".

#

Like shit man just personally. We don't need consistent vitriol for it to be considered honest feedback. Not everyone with a lighter tone of voice is a yesan

tulip sun
#

We need someone dedicated to lore and such on it

cunning fossil
#

And yes, 4 of them should be pet battle people

#

Ok maybe more like 3 but c'mon people enjoy it

tulip sun
#

Did they say how many people will be on it

worn zenith
#

I've been saving up calling rewards in order to get that juicy Grateful Offerings after 9.1.5, but when I log to PTR, my saved up boxes only give offerings, and not gold items. Anyone knows if this is intended or is it a bug?

cunning fossil
#

As in 100 CHOSEN

tulip sun
#

Oh

#

More than I thought

cunning fossil
#

Ikr

#

Hopefully they have an even mix

#

It should be at least 5-8 of every game facet beyond the minor stuff

#

Also a lot.of people will be mixed anyways so it'll be ok

#

If this works and goes well it COULD be great for the game

#

I just hope that it does

#

:copium:

subtle oar
#

Copy the image

cunning fossil
#

It's not an image I can't

subtle oar
#

You can

#

I do it all the time

#

It's how I steal emotes cx

cunning fossil
#

Wottt

#

I'm on mobile

strange falcon
strange falcon
#

For years

cunning fossil
#

Oh no I know that

subtle oar
slender ember
#

I hope the first suggestion of whoever is picked brings up bringing back GMs for proper moderation

cunning fossil
#

Same

strange falcon
subtle oar
dense plover
#

It’s about feedback on existing things

#

Not future content

#

IE - this is good or bad because of reason, NOT this is bad and you should add this to replace it

subtle oar
cunning fossil
#

I want Player Housing damn it

tepid fiber
#

Is player housing really that critical compared to the laundry list of other things

subtle oar
#

Yes

cunning fossil
slender ember
#

The future of the game should be considered as important enough to take suggestions for

cunning fossil
#

They'd like to do other shit in game that doesn't necessarily mean more player power I think

slender ember
#

More Pandaren customization, please.

glass flicker
#

More glyphs, please.

slender ember
#

BRING ARCHAEOLOGY BACK

subtle oar
cunning fossil
#

It was a great way to have a consistent system and add some player power every expac

glass flicker
#

I'd love some glyphs that change visual effects such as weapon trails.

#

Imagine an Outlaw Rogue with blood red trails behind their weapons. It'd be badass!

cunning fossil
#

Sounds nice

opaque pewter
#

Raising affected skill power every expac with the glyph system would be problematic in the long run though. Unless you reduce power over to time like enchants

tepid fiber
#

I enjoy glyphs being purely cosmetic

glass flicker
#

Which is why I said I would like more of them.

cunning fossil
#

I personalyl thinkyes

opaque pewter
#

We just have to think long term

cunning fossil
#

I'm sure there would be ways to fix it, rather than just build upon it more and morel. I just mean other unique effects tied to character progression that stay with us for longert than 2 years.

#

wether that be in the form of Glyph upgrades or whatever else.

#

Also, clearly the wow dev team didn't thinbk of the long term

#

Adn here we are now

glass flicker
#

They also could not have dropped talents. Just a thought.

opaque pewter
#

I'm not sure 10 rows would have been better lol. There has to be some balance somewhere

glass flicker
#

Or, just let us pick whichever talents we want, rather than pick from a row.

opaque pewter
#

Around the time where there cuts were made, the realization that linear incremental changes over time was probably known. I'm not sure what I would have done in their place

#

I think that the talent system is fine, but some rows definitely need a tweak. Some classes have it better in term of choices than others for sure

#

Stuff like long sprint vs. burst speed vs leap

glass flicker
#

I just want my monk to run around with Serenity and Whirling Dragon Punch, it'd be brilliant.

cunning fossil
#

I just wanna feel like my character is progressing

#

rather than going up untilt he end of an expac then falling back down again

#

I'm not even a min max guy. I just wanna do fun shit

#

There must've been a better way rather than what we have no

#

now*

#

with multiple failed systems.

opaque pewter
#

Hmm hard to say. You can't really keep adding after all

cunning fossil
#

Maybe not

#

but you can suppliment instead.

#

IDK

glass flicker
#

Here's what I propose: two different talent trees. One for passives, one for active abilities.

cunning fossil
#

make enchants and engineering and stuff like that more relevant

#

make it so that you can do some sort of builds with those in mind

#

There are so manyt different ways taht don't include just gicing us more

cunning fossil
#

I mean

#

it literally sounds like the essence system somewhat

#

the only good thing from BFA

opaque pewter
#

It's still more, but in a different system that is profession there lol

glass flicker
#

I might be able to get in contact with someone of the Community Council, and propose this idea.

cunning fossil
#

PRofessionms are different

#

and are a bit more limited

glass flicker
#

Two different talent trees. One with passives, one with actives. They can keep building and expanding on this system, rather than changing it every expansion.

cunning fossil
#

it would definitely make them a bit less limited in scope

#

We dotta do SOMETHING new and feels at least semi--permanent

opaque pewter
#

I'm not saying it is bad to put it there. But you'd move the problem elsewhere

glass flicker
#

Plus, I miss Odyn's Fury.

cunning fossil
#

rather than these constant systems that take a nose-dive because of shit handling

opaque pewter
#

Yeah permanency is an issue when it comes with power for sure

glass flicker
#

I hope my input was well thought out.

opaque pewter
#

Games typically end before it goes out of control if we want to give player power progress

cunning fossil
#

THe issue in modern wow stems from the fact that we can literally look at the very start of the expac and say "Well I can't get too attached to any of this. ANd I"ll havg eto min max my time to get the most out of this system as quickly as possible since it's only relevant for abnout 2 and a half patches

#

THAT is a major issue

opaque pewter
#

It may be best to not give anything new I suppose

cunning fossil
#

Playters should never look at new content and say "GOtta go quickly since it won't be relevant after a couple of years>"

cunning fossil
#

LIke

glass flicker
#

The different talent trees could help to eliminate this issue. Just add new or missed abilities. Ahem ahem, Odyn's Fury, to people's rotation. Spice up combat in ways that don't include borrowed power.

cunning fossil
#

I'fve said this over and over again but a return and rebuilding Azeroth Expac wouuld be LOVELY.

#

IT would mean that you don't necessarily have to replace anyrthing ytou have with new thing and a new grind

opaque pewter
cunning fossil
#

you could instead work on player housing, fixing the places you wanna fix etc.

#

rather than mindlessly doint it for /.5%boos of player power

glass flicker
#

Maybe we could have upgradeable talents, too. Kinda like Empowered Conduits.

cunning fossil
glass flicker
#

Maybe upgradeable passives, not as much as abilities.

#

8% chance of Tiger Palm causing a free Blackout Kick? How about 15% and Blackout Kick now deals increased damage?

opaque pewter
#

When it's % based, you'll reach 100 at one point no?

glass flicker
#

Upgrade the talents with Tome of Talents, awarded from dungeons, raids, etc.

#

Eh, a cap easily resolves that.

#

Have it like a 4/4 or 3/3.

opaque pewter
#

Where do you put progress on when all is capped?

glass flicker
#

Reset it each expansion so there's a goal to strive towards again.

cunning fossil
#

Just have a mix of the OLD talent system along side the new one

#

EZ

opaque pewter
#

I'm not saying that the ideas are bad, but these are the questions we have to think lol

cunning fossil
glass flicker
#

Of course, it would be a max level only system, the Talent Upgrades.

cunning fossil
#

SO that you can focus on what you want

opaque pewter
#

Resetting each expansion is similar to system change to reset the slate. Except you always play the same I suppose

cunning fossil
#

the issue is that the systems in mdoern wow are persistent and you have to continuously interact witht them rather than playing the game

glass flicker
#

Talents are perfect as a permanent system.

cunning fossil
opaque pewter
#

I agree

glass flicker
#

And Empowered Talents could also be a meaningful choice.

opaque pewter
#

But that's probably one of the issue; a portion of the playerbase won't feel good about it

cunning fossil
#

ANd I said that a ot and I semi regret it. I still like the concept

glass flicker
#

Do I upgrade Overpower to have a CC effect, or do I upgrade Deep Wounds to go 15% faster?

#

That kind of stuff.

cunning fossil
#

but can accept The execution was fucking trash

cunning fossil
opaque pewter
#

Yes of course lol

cunning fossil
#

Pet battles? "THAT'S DEV TIME WASTED ON DUMB SHIT"

#

PvP? "SUB PAR GAME MODE"

#

Raid/Dungeon? "BORING MONOTONOUS"

#

YEah

opaque pewter
#

So you'd be happier with a talent number reset every expac instead

cunning fossil
#

The goal witha game as large as this is probably to have everyone either intrigued or not in uproar over a system

cunning fossil
#

AS long as I can make dumbass builds that'll never work I'm gucci

glass flicker
#

And that's a good thing. Let's be honest, modern systems suck donkey dick.

opaque pewter
#

Would this be enough to feel power progression permanence that you first seeked? It seems we are thinking it's probably not possible in a sustainable way

cunning fossil
#

PErhaps it shouldn't be the main focus also. I feel as if powe rprogression should be important but not as important as to what you'll do with those systems.

#

TOehrwise

#

the game is just a spreadsheet

#

of numbers and tables and proc chances

subtle oar
#

K.I.S.S.

cunning fossil
#

If my class got no changes and we moved on to the next expac with them saying "Ok guys. No extra system to deal with this expac. Here are your Dungeons, Raids, new BG/Arena. ANd we added an extra place for you to cosmetically get rewards for completing challenges (similar to green fire)"

#

I would take that in a heart beat

#

rather than whatever the heck we have now

cunning fossil
opaque pewter
#

There are probably two big camps on either side there lol

cunning fossil
#

THe people who like spreadsheets can keep spreadsheeting however they want. I would like somethinga tiny bit more tangible.
Hell, they'll STILL be able to do that even with what I said

#

Because GEAR can always change things

opaque pewter
#

I'm a bit more on the new things. Symbiosis, convoke, etc does make things exciting. Maybe the compromise is eally to have one skill that rotates each expac

cunning fossil
#

ALSo Gear should be more than stats they should have cool effects like the mechagon bracers and old world items

#

cahnge my fucking mind

cunning fossil
#

ALl I'm saying is that that shouldn't be the only focus.

#

That'lll happen naturally anyway even if you don't add anything

#

mnew dungeons, new gear, new comps will change up the meta naturally with out 5 power progression syustems lying on top of it

#

You don't have to focus on JUST the power stuff to make an enjoytable gameplay experience

#

that's what they're doing and look at it now

strange falcon
cunning fossil
#

Daf, I know. BUt just let me like not fall intoa depression bucket over a game I really really like please? There's a REASON I like this game and why I like making up things about the future about it.

strange falcon
cunning fossil
#

DAf that was an example.

#

Just don't. You're missing the point of what I said.

opaque pewter
#

There was quite a sizeable non-power things in this expac, I felt. I was not too much I to those but the amount of secrets, community places, grinds for cosmetics and the likes were all around. I suppose you want more then just gear appearances and mounts now

#

Of maybe have them shift the focus/spotlight on them instead?

cunning fossil
#

Legendaries, Vault, Conduits, SOulbinds, Covenants, Domation Sockets.

#

That's a6 pf what will likely be more

#

ONTOP

#

of regular progression iotems like Gear and enchants and such like that

#

For cosmetics? We have ANima and Reputation and renown

#

shrug that's just how I see it. which could be wrohng since I am blind

strange falcon
cunning fossil
#

so many systems that focus on making your character better that a single change to one of them suddenly could mean your class goes from 3rd to 7th in the leader board

opaque pewter
#

The grass always seems greener on the other side after all lol. But yes I'm not criticizing, just curious about what people think is better for a game without too much personal bias if possible

cunning fossil
#

I'm trying to keep it from being biased

#

Hopefully it doesn't come out too biased : P

opaque pewter
#

I'm seeing the effort and appreciate it when discussing yeah

#

I ultimately think that one of the issue is that people care too much about that "relative class position". You can earn everything if you're good and geared enough. It's just that we have a tendency to think in extremes

cunning fossil
#

Factual

#

I personalyl give no shits of class postiotion

#

As I am playing hunter

opaque pewter
#

I agree that it can be harder, and that people tend to go the easy path all the time

cunning fossil
#

And usually if you're not playing BM, you won't be playing the game

#

lel

opaque pewter
#

I played feral since TBC and stick with it. But I found a team that cleared Miron hard mode during its time with a single range dps lol

strange falcon
opaque pewter
#

But yeah, it's very much also a community/human issue

cunning fossil
#

Facatual to both statements

#

horizontal achievements would be noice

opaque pewter
#

The horizontal progression is an interesting concept. Are you thinking about it in terms of freezing systems/power per expansion?

cunning fossil
#

like I said

#

I WANT a house

opaque pewter
#

While it would hurt some of the past chasers, the idea that you can still use your, say Legion weapon only in Legion expansion areas/dungeons could be something that would soften the reset blow

#

You wouldn't technically lose it, and the intended difficulty could be kept

cunning fossil
#

That's pretty good

strange falcon
#

Or you could have classes that dont need a rework,just get 1 spell added that isnt power related etc,
Theres many ways to go about it

strange falcon
# cunning fossil I WANT a house

As many people have said before,
It would need to be the selling point of the expac given how many resources it takes,and theyd also have to create an editor to place furniture,which, given their map editor is a modified version of the wc3 one,i find highly unlikely
They can make an editor inside the map editor,or they make the housing editor separate,and that just makes it weird because now devs have to use 2 different editors and etc etc, "its complicated"

cunning fossil
#

L:et me dream damn it

#

and of course itr'd be a selling point

#

why does that make it less likely?

strange falcon
cunning fossil
#

It wouldn't be fully sims like

#

but it would stillbe ahome

strange falcon
#

If its too barebones,or doesnt work correctly,they get a lot of backlash,
Remember,the devs have said in interviews that they think garrisons were "player housing"

If its too elaborate,it either is unsustainable because their spaghetti code map editor isnt advanced enough,and if they write it fresh then the level designers want to bring the map editor up to snuff and it takes more resources
And the players complain because the rest of the content is barebones or theres too little because they put most resources on housing

opaque pewter
#

In a nice world, you could have some of those extra assets contributed by the community. But in reality, the skill, creativity consistency and legal issue around it is a little too much lol

cunning fossil
#

Unfortunately.

opaque pewter
#

There are alot of props in-game that are available, so regarding that aspect it's probably the least of the issue to get an MVP. As Dafire explained, the biggest issue would be how good it is against player expectations.
In the most raw and easy way for devs you'd simply place them like you would in an editor; full control on location, rotation and scale, but no physics/clipping detection. But I'm not sure if it will be acceptable for the playerbase

cunning fossil
#

TBH I feel like the playerbase will just be happy to find

#

ANY type of ownership

#

like what are they gonna ask for
TO make atheir own version of stormwind? lmao

opaque pewter
#

Lol

#

I'm any case, while the free transform tool would be best in flexibility and time minimizing time spent on such feature, I'm sure internally there would be discussion about if we can let players post stuff like a chandelier put horizontally clipping a chimney put in the center of the room vs. outside perception of game polish reputation. It's a little touchy

cunning fossil
#

Just make it so that you can put Art assets into the game

#

draw your own portraits EZ

#

Actually no never mind don't do that

#

I can';t trust wow players with that idea

opaque pewter
#

Heh

#

That said, it's not as bad as we think to get it in. We have floor clipping detection and props placing already available (like the many toys that can be placed on the ground) and such.

But.. it's still a lot of work. Especially the underlying work such as how much more data it would take to store (per character? Per account?), how can it be easily loaded back without issues, what upper density to restrict to, etc.

Plus we don't know much about the legacy-grade code/env handling hell

strange falcon
opaque pewter
#

Oh wow that slipped my mind for a sec lol

#

I can't recall anything that could modify asset textures though

#

At least, using addons

strange falcon
#

And honestly i think blizzard just doesnt want to invest the resources into housing

opaque pewter
#

It's a lot of work between teams

rose escarp
glass flicker
#

I'm talking glyphs in general, not only soulshape forms.

#

Glyphs such as bringing back Jab for Monks, or turning visual effects a different color.

rose escarp
#

Yup, I’m aware, it was simply to back up the argument with an example ❤️

glass flicker
#

Oh, I see. Well, thank you for adding to my suggestion.

rose escarp
#

Old Lightning Bolt would be a neat one, too

#

Rather than it and Chain Lightning being… well, zappy streams

glass flicker
#

Maybe even add some new Shadowlands related glyphs.

rose escarp
#

Certainly!

glass flicker
#

Such as Glyph of the Kyrians for Holy Priests. Turning into an actual kyrian upon death.

#

Maybe Glyph of the Undying, turning visual effects the greenish color Maldraxxi use, on DKs, for example.

rose escarp
#

Likely Necro Lord themed ones would fit Death Kni… yeah

glass flicker
#

Glyph of Ursoc's Legacy: Your bear form now resembles Ursoc's form within the Shadowlands.

#

Maybe even...

#

Glyph of Dread: Your Shadowstep resembles a Nathrezim's.

#

Still. Glyph of Jab must make a return. It's in such high demand with the people I've talked to.

subtle oar
#

Wat?!

glass flicker
#

What? I'm just thinking up new glyphs they could add.

subtle oar
#

Retconning Ursoc's permadeath?!

#

Oooh i misunderstood

glass flicker
#

Shhhshshshsh. That never happened. Shadowlands is a bad dream. Let's get you back to sleep, granny.

subtle oar
#

I thought those were actual things in the game

glass flicker
#

No. They're just my personal ideas.

slender ember
#

Shadowlands is just a fever dream version of the Matrix given to us by N’zoth

urban spire
#

yoooo

#

9.2 vendor build

#

i've been practicing the taking breaks when i'm bored so i'm not really feeling the "meh this is too late to be good" and am actually kind of excited for 9.2

#

especially after the QoL in 9.1.5, I think 9.2 could be a genuinely good patch relative to other major patches

cunning fossil
#

9.2 copium

#

On my end too

urban spire
#

I don't even really think it's copium for me, I don't think shadowlands is a good expansion, but I've enjoyed some of the content for some time

#

I really just want a new expac like MoP or legion where it hooks me in so much i'm grinding it every day though

#

I hope 10.0 is that

cosmic beacon
#

tbf if the next expansion sucks thats probably it for wow

urban spire
#

it would be the beginning of the end I think

strange falcon
cunning fossil
#

I mean

urban spire
#

the whales would stay and die hard fans, but the share holders would probably start steering wow into it's grave

cunning fossil
#

2 dud expacs in a row is not a great look

#

it HAS to be BEYOND amazing

#

not average, not pretty good

urban spire
#

I would expect wow to probably be retired in 3-4 years after the next expac if it's a bad one

cunning fossil
#

it has to be legion in temrs of everything

urban spire
#

maybe focus on more profitable stuff or start wow 2

#

well, legion had quite a few issues

strange falcon
urban spire
#

people were just over looking them a bit because wod was pretty lack luster

#

I think that with 2 bad expansions in a row people would really rail the negative in

#

I think we have gotten to the point as players where we are tired of having little pieces of shit hanging off of the good parts

strange falcon
urban spire
#

lol content creators do not equal health of a game

tepid fiber
#

Gamers are the worst thing about gaming

urban spire
#

content creators need content all the time

#

and so a longer period without new content will drive them away

#

because they need engagement metrics all of the time to live

strange falcon
urban spire
#

basically like having the shortest attention span in the world

#

content creators can't be patient

#

*most of the time

#

some get away with it, but most can't

strange falcon
#

I mean,it is true and a fact that blizzard has actively ignored and shit on its playerbase and content creators

#

For 6years and going

#

A common example that gets brought up is the preach interviews for shadowlands,where ion literally was saying "we hear you,we get what you want changed,but your opinions is wrong so fuck off"

urban spire
#

and that's 6 years and going?

#

that's only a year ago

#

I would say that blizzard hasn't really gotten this egotistical until BFA

#

In legion blizzard was pretty active in listening still

strange falcon
urban spire
#

wod wasn't due to blizzard ignoring players

#

it was due to mis management and wanting an expac a year

strange falcon
#

They had a secret forum that was literally the community council, with content creators in it
And they started ignoring it in wod,and dismantled it in legion

urban spire
#

I hate to break it to you

strange falcon
#

Magdalenadk's twitter account has a good thread on it

urban spire
#

but 100 people don't get to act like their opinion is better because they have a social media presence

strange falcon
#

Thats literally what the community council is tho

urban spire
#

why is everyone holding content creators on pedestals these days?

strange falcon
#

😂

urban spire
#

no the community council is applicable by all players

#

the new one

strange falcon
#

Its still 100 people who have more say than others

tepid fiber
strange falcon
#

The exact thing you said

urban spire
#

it's not only 100 though

#

and not a bunch of egotistical neck beards

#

well

#

maybe some

#

but I think the youtubers are worse than normal players

#

because they have so many people subbed to them they think that means they're better

cunning fossil
#

NOt necessarily

urban spire
#

obviously, but lots do think that

cunning fossil
#

some people who have an ego problem obviously yes but some of them have actual criticisms that are decently fair

#

after all, they're nothing without us : P

urban spire
#

I agree, I still think the bigger communications issues started at the end of legion beginning of bfa though. There was always and underlying bit starting around Cata, but it wasn't that bad until BFA shipped

#

and obviously the worst of it was in the shadowlands alpha

#

when people straight up told them problems in their systems that stayed problems until 2 weeks ago lol

#

erm 1 week ago

#

I know in BFA a lot of talk was had about azerite too, but I don't think BFA was ever as broken as shadowlands was to start

#

at least I don't remember it being too bad

#

regardless, I think we just have to wait now

#

we basically went on "strike" made our demands to blizzard and spoke with our wallets, so now we have to wait and see if 9.2, 9.2.5 and 10.0 are built on their promises

dense plover
#

The intention of why blizzard did what they did is clear

#

And as someone who played in the alpha, I didn’t see the covenant stuff as an issue for me or people who play like me

#

I didn’t resub for 9.1.5 because covenant stuff was never my problem

#

And neither were any of the other fixes

#

My problems still remaining are torghast leveling, which even though it’s back may as well not exist due to garbage XP, threads of fate being slower than story leveling which is stupid, and end game content being limited to each area due to the variety of gear outside or dungeons being massively reduced

#

BfA was a mess but I never unsubbed

#

I feel like Korthia doesn’t provide me with anything because grinding currency means nothing if all it unlocks is gear or stuff I don’t care about

#

And gear upgrades are lame

#

I want transmog and mounts and cosmetics

#

Even warlords 6.2 had more than 9.1

strange falcon
#

Peach rant peach rant peach rant clutches pitchfork

dense plover
#

Not to mention the daily game loop right now is focused on grinding MULTIPLE currencies

#

Endgame should have 2 or 3 currencies MAX

#

This is why FFXIV has 3 tomestones and rotates the old ones out

tepid fiber
#

It's odd--people complain about not having enough to do in addition to having too much to do

dense plover
#

It keeps the variety of the grind in the activities you choose to do and has a max cap instead of giving you a grind for 5 currencies with each currency having its own activity

#

It’s that 2nd thing gumball

#

Too much to do but having to do all of it to get all the things

#

Less currency types but more options for where you can get each one is better endgame

tepid fiber
#

Idk, this entire xpac I've never felt behind on content as long as a did my weeklies

dense plover
#

It’s not about feeling behind

#

It’s about feeling tired

#

Having to do the same activities every week

#

No variation

#

No choice

#

All to get the same rewards

#

Why do I need to do research and anima stuff and korthia rep and covenant level and korthia gear and torghast currency

tepid fiber
#

Different Torghast wings, different m+ affixes, different assaults, choosing different activities to do to fill up the % weekly quests...

dense plover
#

If it was just the weekly quests sure

#

But it isn’t

#

In 14, all endgame activities provide one of 3 types of currency

tepid fiber
#

Well that's what I'm saying--only doing the weekly stuff, I still feel competitive at endgame

dense plover
#

And they rotate the currency

#

That’s completely outside my point gumball

#

I’m not saying it’s hard

tepid fiber
#

I only really do dailies when I have to catch up with alts

dense plover
#

I’m saying it’s fucking boring

#

And it isn’t fun

tepid fiber
#

I guess boredom and fun is too subjective to really get into it

dense plover
#

In 14 if I want to run old content, I can still get useful rewards

#

In wow I have to run new stuff or get nothing

tepid fiber
#

Thankfully multiple games exist that offer different things for people. WoW isn't the only MMO I play because it doesn't have to have everything

dense plover
#

You are missing my point

#

Wows problem right now is the endgame

#

Leveling to 50 is great

#

50-60 needs some work for alts

#

And 60 is fucking dull

#

It isn’t fun

tepid fiber
#

But I don't think the endgame is really that bad, and neither do many of the people I play with

dense plover
#

It isn’t surprising

tepid fiber
#

Fun is subjective

dense plover
#

And it doesn’t do anything that BfA didn’t do

#

It is subjective

#

But considering the drop in players within my guilds, I’m not alone

tepid fiber
#

I guess I just get irked when people state subjective opinion as objective fact, is all

#

And when it comes to crowds, the gaming community is especially victim to hype and mob mentality and soapbox influence compared to other groups

#

Like, you'd be just silly to think that there aren't a bunch of people just parroting the opinions of their favorite mouthpieces

#

Sure, there are many that do have their own legitimate complaints, but personally I see most people as just bottom of the barrel bandwagoneers

urban spire
#

I think that wow does need to incorporate more time walking into wow to make it let you play older forms of content, but grinding more than 3 currencies has never been an issue for me

#

I've been playing since MoP and since that expansion there have always been a dozen or so currencies to farm

#

I don't necessarily think that's an issue

#

and part of the reason wow's endgame sucks right now is because player progession is built on the conduits and soul binds, both of which imo are fucking ass

#

I don't like these re-hashed half baked talent trees that don't add really anything meaningful to my gameplay

#

I think 9.2 will help ease that again with tier sets

#

another problem is legendaries

#

legendaries are so damn awful right now

#

but a huge cornerstone of your player power

tepid fiber
#

I mean, that's been true for a few expansions

urban spire
#

I think if we just had a more traditional gearing/ power system like previous ones to legion we'd be much better off

#

yeah that's fair

tepid fiber
#

I remember getting laughed at in Legion on my warrior for not having my bouncy shoulders

urban spire
#

honestly my wet dream for wow is that they kept artifact weapons and built off the system

#

I know it would have similar pitfalls to talent trees

#

but simplify it down so it has like 1 main ability each expansion, and make it have the 3 relics still for progression

#

and then just add more cosmetics to it each patch kind of thing

#

I dunno, i'm not a systems designer, but I think artifact weapons could have been cool to expand on

tepid fiber
#

I think the borrowed power systems would be fine if they were relatively the same effects with expansion-specific twists, tbh. I mean, a lot of the conduits really are no different from artifact weapon powers or azerite gear powers

urban spire
#

exactly

#

and the whole covenant themed abilties like the deaths due for dk's could have been something built into artifact weapons

#

and then they could have basically had and intro to each expansion where the powers in it from the previous expansion were needed to "fix" or help with something and would be replaced with that expansions themed abilties and such

#

basically a "wipe" to the system to prepare it for the expansion

#

and it would feel more similar to getting rid of old tier sets than having a completely new overhauled system like going to azerite or soul binds

cunning fossil
#

~~SOmething a bit more permanent would be nice IMO. ~~

urban spire
#

I agree permanence is nice but you will always encounter bloat

cunning fossil
#

well yes

urban spire
#

I've thought about it so much, I don't think it's possible to have anything fully permanent

#

Like I play Rust and Tarkov

#

and neither of those games could work without wipes

#

and I don't think there is really any way for them to have a wipeless game

#

why is life so good even though we die?

cunning fossil
#

I know that bloat is an issue. I'm saying something lieka consistent system, that change every expac.

urban spire
#

We dont have permanence so we don't really stagnate

cunning fossil
#

rather thana whole new system to learn every expac

tepid fiber
#

Like I also play STO and there are some pieces of ship equipment from years ago that are still basically BiS and it just gets boring/whacky

urban spire
#

but if you were immortal eventually you'd become bored and one day probably want to die

cunning fossil
#

one that changes every expac with new abilities and toys to play with

urban spire
#

that's the way I looke at these systems

#

ohhh I see what you mean whereiam

tepid fiber
urban spire
#

so artifact weapons with a refresh not an overhaul each expansion kind of fits that for you?

cunning fossil
#

I mean

#

for 6 years the resource has been nick named AP for god's sake

urban spire
#

true

tepid fiber
#

I mean we're also talking about an MMO here

cunning fossil
#

Yes I acknowledge that the grin dis something that MMOs have

#

but the problem is that the grinds we have had didn't really amount to anything

tepid fiber
#

They do for the time they matter

cunning fossil
#

They're just a different way to build up another talent tree and crap

urban spire
#

I liked the grind of AP in legion tbh, but grinding renown and covenant shit gets boring for me. Like some of the grind systems are better than others

tepid fiber
#

Like, even in life there are tons of things that you do that don't really matter later on

urban spire
#

I think they need to find a grind system that works, and build off it for a few expansions instead of starting fresh each expac

cunning fossil
#

That's fair but still. Why can't we instead of goign through something that's slightly different every expac (but still is a burden since how we acqurie and how relevant it is changes)

#

PErsonally, if I could picka system that they could choose to keep for the rest of the games life.

#

It'd be the Essence system.

#

keep it 3 minors and 1 major, add and change essences every patch.

#

and suddenl;y you have a system of power that doesn't feel like sucha drag.

cunning fossil
urban spire
#

that's literally glyphs 2.0

#

which tbh I liked glyphs

cunning fossil
#

Yes. Which is why I kidna liked glyphs too

tepid fiber
#

I prefer that glyphs remain entirely cosmetic

urban spire
#

I remember cata was supposed to have a more detailed power related glyphs thing, I wonder if some of the development of that went into essences

cunning fossil
#

That is fair.

urban spire
#

I'm not saying I want glyphs from old back, I just remember it being a semi-nice borrowed power that didn't feel awful

tepid fiber
#

More cosmetic options for abilities wouldn't be a bad thing

cunning fossil
#

TBH, it's either a system should be consistent through out expacs or they need to not makje a new system all together and instead push more interactive and interesitn gear.

#

like when I played the game at first, when I was a smol boi

#

I looked at gear and what they did and it was all cool

#

like "Have crit? DO thing" and "Attack alot? Gain stacking crit" and stuff

#

yes we have that still with trinkets but I think if we havd more things like the mechagon bracers it'd be neat

#

Tier sets also would be nice

tepid fiber
#

Yeah but too much consistency causes stagnation

#

Like, look how they boiled down and gentrified armor sets

cunning fossil
#

What do you mean by consistency? How would the idea cause stagnation?

#

Oh NVM I gecha

#

I mean, that's the thing though. We've had something consistent with all these expacs before borrowed pwoer came about

tepid fiber
#

An overabundancy of constancy leading to a lack of innovations and plateaued systems, basically

cunning fossil
#

and the game was completely fine

#

IMO, you need a consistent base to make something creative with them

#

like people say"YOu need to know the rules before you can break them"

#

There's nothing wrong with variation. Not at all. The issue is when the variation is trying to do the same thing with the same goals but the process of getting there is differnet, you may swerve off track

deep pawn
#

I sorta appreciate them trying everything to compete with Endwalker. They may well do ptr and classic season next week haha

cunning fossil
#

A .5 patch competing with an expac

#

Lmao

deep pawn
#

I mean 9.2 PTR

strange falcon
strange falcon
strange falcon
opaque pewter
cunning fossil
opaque pewter
#

If we're talking about soulbinds, I can see that the intent was to tie power growth with a story/setting that would make sense once we have to eventually reset. By tying it to characters intended to grow with us over time, but that were meant to stay in this realm we'll eventually leave, power would drop as expected, making sense in the lore. A lot of effort is being put in trying to have those system work with the story.
The thematic approach to power up is how they try to keep it fresh

#

Instead of the power drop put in just because it's a new expansion without explanation, the one thing that gave you power is instead out of the equation for the next part of the adventure. You can see that in the history of our time with the weapon, the necklace and now our linked companion.
The double edge sword of that is that it makes people feel attached to those.
It's a choice of trying to create good memories in relation to power vs "just a game thing"

cunning fossil
#

There are no good memories made to be honest.

I'm attached to these characters because of their characters, attached to the weapons mostly because they were cool (and they did have nice benefits), I didn't like the neck piece tho tbh.

#

I was never attached to any of them due to power

#

The power thing just feels bad because you're neutered at the start of the expac. In the past, with constant progression, it didn't feel that way IMO. It just felt that perhaps challenges were tougher.

#

And even if you try to make it make sense lorewise, it doesn't

#

We went from killing a literal TITAN to having trouble with troggs.

#

So it honestly doesn't soften the blow. It makes it more laughable

tepid fiber
#

If anything, constantly getting more and more powerful is even more ridiculous, both from a functional and narrative standpoint

strange falcon
#

We're using dragonball logic

tepid fiber
#

Sure, you killed the big bad as part of a huge group while using a powerful tool that you gradually empowered over time specifically for the purpose of defeating the big bad, but without that you're just a REALLY good/competent member of your class

cunning fossil
# tepid fiber I mean, even a professional Olympic athlete can slip and die from bashing their ...

Not a great counter I'll be honest.
The different between these two scenarios is that the Olympic athlete is not doing whatever sport they're doing when they have the injury.

We, as adventurers, have been fighting all our lives. So the excuse doesn't apply.

BTW this doesn't mean I WOULDN'T like a simpler story with simpler enemies. Quite the opposite. All I'm saying is that trying to give an ingame reason for the "downgrade" is not pheasible. It just doesn't work. Let it be a passive thing that players understand is just a game thing.

tepid fiber
#

It is feasible, because it happens. We lose access to our macguffins and stop working in a concentrated effort to that particular big bad at the time

cunning fossil
tepid fiber
#

Easier said than done and too vague

#

Conversation isn't going to go anywhere. I believe there's a fundamental disagreement to character power here.

cunning fossil
#

That is fair to say. But just gonna say that while I respect your opinion, how they've been augmenting our base power has just felt bad over all and hasn't been effective for the last 4 years.

#

They couldn't capture Legion's awe and it has fallen on its face

tepid fiber
#

Too subjective

strange falcon
#

WAI wall of text pog

cunning fossil
#

Well no shit

#

Every thing I say is an opinion

tepid fiber
#

Why does it have to be better than Legion

cunning fossil
#

IT DOESN'T

tepid fiber
#

We use different tools to face different threats. When we don't need the tool for one particular threat, we get a new one

cunning fossil
#

It just has to be as good if not better. Is it a sin to wish for better? For improvement after time.

#

I'm not even saying keep artifact weapons

tepid fiber
#

Keeping too much of the granted power or holding on to the same weapons over time leads to power creep, stagnation, and the unnecessary inflation of individual power. It's unnecessary. At max level, we're considered experts in our fields. After that, endgame is using what we have to get the right tools for the job to defeat the antagonist

cunning fossil
#

I personally would just like the next system to feel better made than the older system.

tepid fiber
#

"Better" is incredibly subjective

cunning fossil
#

Of course but OBVIOUSLY, My "subjective" opinion has echoed with many many others "subjective" opinions in order to form a fact.

The fact that the past 2 borrowed power systems the game had to offer failed miserably.

#

Like just because something is subjective, does not instantly make it 7ntrue

tepid fiber
#

I know I say that a lot, but it's a massive pet peeve of mine when people state opinion points as facts for an argument when an objective detail will do

strange falcon
#

"Water is wet" is a fact
"Games have gotten worse in the last 10yrs" is a trend

#

It is purely semantics at the end of the day and anyone understands what you meant,but gumball really loves his semantics

cunning fossil
#

Again, respect your opiniom

tepid fiber
# cunning fossil Of course but OBVIOUSLY, My "subjective" opinion has echoed with many many other...

Idk, stating "well they think it too" gradually becomes increasingly loaded, especially when you take into account the culture and attitudes of the modern gaming environment where there's an uncomfortably large portion of the community that just parrots the opinions of their favorite talking heads and form the rest off of assumption and hype without actually bothering to invest time and energy into understanding objective details and actual info

cunning fossil
#

I just hold a tiny bit more weight on what would be subjective opinions

#

Not saying thst the crowd is always right either. I do not echo other's opinions. You saw me during beta and alpha defending covenants and souldbinds and stuff.

#

I'm not being mindless here

tepid fiber
#

Idk, I have to respect the person and that person's history of informed opinions to respect their opinion. Otherwise, it's just some shit this guy says, yknow?

#

Not saying you are

strange falcon
tepid fiber
#

@cunning fossil Man, no matter how hard I try, there's no way for me to sugar coat typing out "I genuinely believe most people are too dumb to have a worthwhile opinion"

#

I'm sorry khadgarface

#

I really tried

#

Maybe not dumb

#

Ignorant, maybe

#

Possibly incapable

#

But I'm admittedly pretty jaded when it comes to "people"

cunning fossil
tepid fiber
#

Which is why I prefer factual, point-based arguments grounded in specific details

#

Because when someone brings an opinion into their subjective argument my brain is automatically all "well who tf are you"

cunning fossil
#

That's fair. With the current climate especially in America.

Of course it's fine to want factual point -based arguments. And that's not a bad thing.

tepid fiber
#

Yeah

#

Pretty much

#

Facts over feelings, basically

cunning fossil
#

I personally just think it's ok to have some subjectivity in there. It just has to be taken with a grain of salt and have a worthwhile fact based argument behind it.

#

I personally that facts over feelings is a good rule, but I also say that feelings don't equate to nothing

#

Again that is me personally:P

#

Again, nothing wrong with a totally favt based objective opinion.

#

Those are usually pretty good, even if a little robotic.

strange falcon
cunning fossil
#

Very nice that our debate/argument did not devolve to name calling tho

#

Pretty nice

#

I've yet to be called a noob or paid-carry since Beta

tepid fiber
#

When have you and I ever really argue-argued though khadgarface

#

But yeah. It's easy to win an argument when you're right

#

😏

cunning fossil
#

You did not win >:0

tepid fiber
#

I know lmao

cunning fossil
#

I know I kid :P

tepid fiber
#

There doesn't need to be a winner in a discussion lol

cunning fossil
#

Agreed

#

We can both have valid points.

#

And besides, it's up to the devs to please us both

tepid fiber
#

Pfffsh

cunning fossil
#

We'll have something to argue about next expac

#

Likely lore related

strange falcon
cunning fossil
#

Too late

tepid fiber
#

There will always be something for someone to argue about

#

And I have some pretty hot takes of my own ||like how there needs to be a great culling of elves||

cunning fossil
#

But I wanna be a hot elf :[

bleak coral
#

We gonna see this channel renamed to 9-2-spoilers soon? KingPepe

dense plover
#

once 9.2 ptr happens

bleak coral
#

That was my Hopium speaking for it to release soon

glass flicker
#

@tepid fiber wanna debunk the shit out of this?

tepid fiber
#

Not worth the effort

glass flicker
#

Speaks for itself, don't it?

#

Like, sure, a steampunk theme expansion sounds awesome. Still unlikely. How many years would be skipped, and how many characters dead? And a mechanic class?

upper pasture
#

New system: hero stance? Lol wut like that system they’ve removed from the game countless times

glass flicker
#

Also, customizable airships. "CHAMPIEN! Azeroth has fin'ly awakened! Ye must board this airship with a crew before she explodes like Argus!"

#

Magni, probably.

upper pasture
#

Yeah who wants an airship. Honestly lol

#

As much as I wanted player housing idk if I even want that anymore. It’s best to expect nothing and get nothing then expect everything and be disappointed

lime venture
#

Please, 9.2 reveal today haha

upper pasture
#

And another point to that “leak” i highly highly doubt. “Unified factions” will be a patch feature that’s tested over a few months. Instead of a expansion feature.

glass flicker
#

I kinda like it. Make PvP free for all or based on smaller factions.

#

"Yeah, I fight for Gilneas, what about it?"

#

It could even be changeable by something as redundant as what tabard you're wearing.

strange falcon
glass flicker
#

Still. If they were going to pull anything like this off, I'd name the expansion: World of Warcraft, Nations at War

#

Que the initials jokes. "Oh, hell NaW!"

terse patrol
#

Ah. Yes. The “leak” that includes. . . everything people are speculating about.

#

How convenient.

#

It’s like they don’t even try.

left arch
glass flicker
#

For real, though. There are some people who could make a better leak with a handful of french fries.

upper pasture
strange falcon
cunning fossil
#

But yeah obvi fake

#

I knew it was fake the moment it said

#

Unified faction