beta-ptr-spoilers

[vapid peak]

https://twitter.com/_wolfandwild/status/1415544959306924036/photo/1

Auri 🔥 (@_wolfandwild)

@MozarabMohan Apologies for the quality, my work is not well lit.

Twitter · Jul 15, 2021, 5:33 AM

New corners of the new cosmo chart

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/804763881351282748/865110008312233994/unknown.png?width=684&height=910 all the forces themselves are linked to one another like the links in a chain

Hi Elune https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/804763881351282748/865110039873585153/unknown.png

[daring dune]

ye noticed too

brokers are part of order?

[austere gazelle]

or they symbolized order with something they knew aka mechanical part of their own design

[unborn glacier]

Oh I'm certain Perculia already has copy

[light compass]

I hope so, i would like to get it too 😄

[austere gazelle]

I pre ordered mine on february on amazon. Yesterday told me it was unavailable and they told me it would be sent the 20th of august...

[slender quest]

Sylvanas new "Arbiter" model got leaked. Should I show it to you guys? It's a heavy spoiler...

[light compass]

i want to see it XD

its most likely a joke but

further more, YES

i want to see it XD

[slender quest]

ok... but no hurt feelings because it's a spoiler

https://ibb.co/fFXs97z

🤓

[light compass]

AWESOME!

Yeaah, this looks really good 😄

[slender quest]

it has the same quality of a leak like that one people are spreading right now 🙂

[light compass]

Na, its kinda based..it fits very well arbiter sylvanas

THATS exactly what a arbiter should look like!

[austere gazelle]

Yeah I read it and I was like.. Wtf, no ?

" I canno choose me own destiny so I'm gonna pick those of the one who came instead lulz "

[strange falcon]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/301856568050319360/865227877712658452/1626353380177.png
i dont have any strong opinion on the game's story or even christie herself,but what she's saying is true and has been happening for a few years now,especially contributing was any controversial content being demonetized immediately on youtube

[uncut vault]

I mean if she were talking about corporate interests and the effects of capitalism on news outlets and channels, she might have a point like you said

but her point of view seems to literally just be "haters dont like my stuff" lol

[tulip sun]

People hate her for no reason though. Like absurdly so.

[unborn glacier]

"Capitalism" 🙄

[tulip sun]

It is ok to have criticism. But what people do to Christie is not that

[unborn glacier]

People blame her for wowz lore woes

That's why

It's stupid

[tulip sun]

That doesn't even make sense though she is just one of many writers

Not even the leas

Lead

[unborn glacier]

Humans are stupid

[tropic trail]

Thank you but leave me out of this

[austere gazelle]

Someone needs to make the arbiter, but with sylvanas' head behind the helmet 😄

[unborn glacier]

Sylvanas redemption c:

[terse patrol]

Christie Golden has had some hot takes in the past.

Like “you can’t criticize story if you haven’t published a book.”

@uncut vault

I think the criticism of Shadowlands has made her hyper-defensive.

Yes, assholes exist, but criticism of the game isn’t forbidden or out of line.

[uncut vault]

absolutely, and I do hate that people take it that far

but she very much applies it to all criticism haha

[tropic trail]

I think she might have a Sylvanas bodypillow

[uncut vault]

I mean she has a Sylvanas cat 😛

[tropic trail]

Breh

[uncut vault]

but you dont need to do personal attacks to criticize her (or danusers) works

I dont think either of their fondness for Sylvanas really matters because they really horridly misinterpret her lol

[tropic trail]

People are just jumping on hate trains like sheep because of one comment turning their asshole mode on

"Oh man! This guy hates on the story, I better do it too!"

[jagged wigeon]

It’s honestly more indicative of the current trend for writers to sloppily write redemption arcs without understanding what makes a redemption arc work

[tropic trail]

Also trying to make sympathetic villains

I'm tired of this storyline

Sure, villains you can relate to and understand can make compelling stories

But don't force it

[uncut vault]

its kind of the issue in putting Sylvanas in this cosmic villain spot in the first place, you either ignore her sympathetic bits, like BfA, and just make her the most annoying smug villain possible, or you remember them, at which point she has no real reason to be doing all of this cosmic villain stuff, like what we're now getting in Shadowlands

[tropic trail]

Sylvanas' redemption is like nipples on a man. It doesn't matter

Opinion won't change on her

[terse patrol]

The issue is, Sylvanas hasn’t been sympathetic since Wrath. People continue to forget she went full Lich Queen in Cataclysm and those who do remember either know she’s evil as shit or they scream “YASSSS QUEEN.”

[strange falcon]

more the death threats have made her hyper defenssive

[terse patrol]

She was this way since before the death threats.

[strange falcon]

that is the entirety of twitter at any hour of the day

[terse patrol]

She’s always been all about “don’t criticize thing I like or thing I made because you aren’t a writer.”

[jagged wigeon]

And that’s the big failing of modern redemption arcs

[terse patrol]

Criticize Loki and she’ll pull a knife on you in the twitter post sense. lmao

[jagged wigeon]

You have the character committ so many evil things or atrocities

[strange falcon]

weird metaphore

[jagged wigeon]

But then you expect that to be washed away because they decided to not be evil anymore

Like if you wanted to Sylvanas’ redemption arc

[tropic trail]

Almost as weird as the fact that Sylvanas is getting redemption, amirite?

[jagged wigeon]

You needed to have start that shit Post WoLK

ASAP

[terse patrol]

Issue is, they WANT Sylvanas to be like an Arthas parallel. Except the difference is, Arthas was manipulated, abandoned by Uther and Jaina, and his soul was stolen by Frostmourne. As said many times before, Frostmourne’s first victim was Arthas.

However.

Sylvanas, after freeing herself from the Lich King, CHOSE to remain evil.

[tropic trail]

I'd say Frostmourne's first victim was Ner'zhul

[terse patrol]

Arthas never had free will

Sylvanas did.

[tropic trail]

Since he was, y'know, imprisoned

[terse patrol]

Ner’zhul’s soul was in the Helm.

Frostmourne was soulless until it took Arthas’.

[jagged wigeon]

You’d be better off doing a redemption arc for Arthas than Sylvanas

Not that it would be right

[terse patrol]

Arthas IS redeemable. His only crime is what he did before taking up Frostmourne.

[jagged wigeon]

But we do know that Arthas was in fact holding the Lich King back from swarming everything

[terse patrol]

Betraying the mercenaries and purging Stratholme.

And tbh, no decision Stratholme wise was great.

[unborn glacier]

Nah cause she didn't do anything needing redemption precata

[terse patrol]

I know I’d rather have died to Arthas in Stratholme than become the undead.

Especially since there’s no guarantee you’ll become Forsaken later.

[slender quest]

except the fact (the new lore) that Sylvanas lost her good half (soul) the moment she was killed by Arthas.
So I would not call it "she choose" no, she had no choice and that was basically her only way

[unborn glacier]

And even if you do, you're only left with select emotions

[unborn glacier]

She was not "evil" precata

That's a fact

[terse patrol]

@slender quest which is BS because she used to have a rough moral system pre-Cataclysm.

[slender quest]

yep

[terse patrol]

Retcons are lame.

I still hate that they abandoned the Crown of Will plotline for the Forsaken post-vanilla.

[slender quest]

yeah but that's the way it goes. You have kind of a double morality/standard. Its BS for Sylvanas but not for Arthas? Before the retcons there was no way Arthas could be ever redeemed

with the new Lore as you said, he was manipulated

[terse patrol]

The Crown of Will was an artifact Sylvanas wanted badly, because when it’s placed on your head, it breaks mind domination magic.

You can guess why that would be important to the Forsaken.

[unborn glacier]

Not really. She was actually about chaotic neutral pre cata. If it benefitted her and the Forsaken it was good. If it benefitted the Horde too, that's just extra.

[tropic trail]

I think Arthas shouldn't be brought back for Shadowlands

He had a perfect character arc

[terse patrol]

Sure. But the thing is, she saw undeath as a CURSE. And she didn’t want to make new undead. She wanted to free the Scourge from slavery beneath the Lich King.

[tropic trail]

Bringing him back would invalidate Sylvanas' role

Since they'd obviously need him for answers

[strange falcon]

arthas's soul was the one used to forge DKanduin's sword is the most common theory

[terse patrol]

The basic idea of the Crown of Will would have been, instead of the Forsaken turning their back on their CORE PHILOSOPHY of “undead bad”, they’d capture Scourge undead and place the Crown on their heads, severing the tie to the Lich King. So now, the Forsaken could “reproduce” by freeing souls from the Lich King one at a time.

[unborn glacier]

She saw the Forsaken would be wiped out without new inductions. She did offer those raised a choice, to return to death, stay and serve her, the Forsaken and the Horde, or go their own way.

[terse patrol]

So, in Cataclysm, the starting zone for Forsaken could have started with you getting crowned and broken free.

Read what I posted afterwards. The Crown of Will was the answer they initially were planning on.

[unborn glacier]

I like this one better

[terse patrol]

And it’d also serve as a narrative reflection of the Helm of Domination.

[tropic trail]

I wonder what we'll do with the Hat of Domination in 9.2

[unborn glacier]

Giving the dead a new chance at life

[tropic trail]

I imagine the Jailer may want it for passage into our reality

[slender quest]

The idea Honkerton is talking about is one I like. That would be the best choice to go with Sylvanas in my opinion

[terse patrol]

The Crown of Will would have maintained the Forsaken’s dark society while also not breaking their entire philosophy of “UNDEATH IS A CURSE, but we can at least make you free.”

[slender quest]

sadly it is to late and we take what we get. And a Sylvanas redemption by saying she was not herself is one I gladly take

[tropic trail]

I don't like it...

[terse patrol]

Yeah. I think they abandoned the Crown of Will plot because either they forgot over the course of TBC, or they wanted to go an edgier route.

[slender quest]

🤷‍♀️

[terse patrol]

The early days of WoW were shaky and they were not organized when it came to story.

So there’s plenty of Vanilla lore they just forgot about.

[tropic trail]

I think Sylvanas should have been badly beaten during the raid fight and the Jailer got the Arbiter Core and buggered off, only for Sylvanas to turn to us and say "I did a bad"

While the Jailer did the "Every soul has a purpose" talk

Make the Jailer seem like the Shang Tsung of WoW, just betraying everyone

[slender quest]

naaaah instead we only beat her to 50% , lose the fight against her and the jailer and get that cinematic

I like that one more ❤️

[terse patrol]

Know what would be funny? If they revealed Sylvanas had the Crown of Will all along in a vault in the Undercity, and hid its existence from her people in order to push them towards the far more evil path of using Valkyr.

[jagged wigeon]

Having your characters actions be explained by “she wasn’t herself” is an admittance of your inability to properly write actual repentance

[slender quest]

Yes it's a cheap way out

[jagged wigeon]

Then again, it’s like WoW lore hasn’t bent over for this sort of thing before

[slender quest]

But I take it over "Oh shit, we totally screwed her over in BfA let's just kill her and be done with"

[tropic trail]

It's kinda predictable writing, which is never good

[slender quest]

100% I take the cheap way out

[tropic trail]

There's so many cliffhangers, I'm sick of them

[jagged wigeon]

Keep watch for Sargeras redemption arc because he was right against the Void Lords

[tropic trail]

"Cannot let him reach the... Ugh"

The what, Sylvanas? THE WHAT?

[terse patrol]

I hope they bring back the Crown of Will post-Sylvanas next expansion. With the new Forsaken council using it to free mindless Scourge to “make” new Forsaken. Rather than killing the living and forcing them into service.

[jagged wigeon]

I see the crown retuning to break Anduin free

Sylvanas finally gets it and uses on him

[terse patrol]

I kinda feel like they’ve forgotten about it.

[jagged wigeon]

And Anduin gets to complete his Lich king outfit

[tropic trail]

I mean

[terse patrol]

So I don’t see it happening sadly

[jagged wigeon]

Eh

[tropic trail]

The original Anduin model had a hat

[jagged wigeon]

Never say never

[tropic trail]

They just removed it because he never wears it post BfA

That lion hat

[jagged wigeon]

I was sure they would cut the Sylvanas shit in bfa

But here we are

[tropic trail]

This

[slender quest]

Not only you. There were many people yelling and spitting how Sylvanas would die in a raid in BfA 🙂

And here we are 😊

[terse patrol]

I was REALLY hoping my Siege of Stormwind with Sylvanas as the raid boss was going to happen.

[slender quest]

wait

what

Siege of Stormwind? Sylvanas ?

[terse patrol]

Because there’s a lot of speculation Arthas is buried in Stormwind’s graveyard.

[slender quest]

Sylvanas the Queen of Stormwind? 😂

[tropic trail]

Eh, I called the end of BfA from the beginning. Give me a few months to think the end of Shadowlands

[terse patrol]

And in 8.2, they changed the music of the Stormwind graveyard to Jaina’s theme.

So, it was all really weird.

[jagged wigeon]

I’m betting now that Anduin will become the new Jailer

[terse patrol]

OH, also, in the Horde intro scenario

[jagged wigeon]

And Sylvanas will die or something

[terse patrol]

Nathanos is found later leaving the graveyard.

[tropic trail]

Nope

[jagged wigeon]

That’s my bet, and I’ll be happy to be disappointed when Blizz does worse

[tropic trail]

Anduin will be freed, possibly by Sylvanas or Jaina's aunt powers

[jagged wigeon]

[tropic trail]

Anduin called Jaina "auntie" at the end of BfA xD

[slender quest]

that was cute tho

[tropic trail]

Yea

[jagged wigeon]

The important question is

[tropic trail]

Jaina's aunt powers are brokenly OP

She can solo an army with her ship alone

[jagged wigeon]

Will be get Anduin and Taelia pt 2?

[tropic trail]

Anduin and Taelia get married, they have a baby girl named Tiffin, she grows up to be the Queen of Stormwind with Lorna Crowley's son as her husband

Or maybe even Tess' son

Remember Tess? Genn's daughter?

[vapid peak]

This is too good so I gotta put it in here

https://youtu.be/4t78qa_wEOQ

[tropic trail]

Making the child of the king a girl would imo force Lordaeron to reunite, seeing as the queen is forced to move into the king's palace

So that would make Undercity, Gilneas, and every other zone until it reaches Stormwind "Lordaeron"

Reunited, at last

[jagged wigeon]

Is that comic that had older Anduin still canon?

Old Man Anduin

Granpdauin

[unborn glacier]

If you read the novels, he's been doing that since Tides of War

[unborn glacier]

Well, no. Because there is a living heir to Lordaerons throne

[tropic trail]

Who?

Calia is dead

[unborn glacier]

Caelias daughter

[tropic trail]

Undead

Calia has a kid?

[unborn glacier]

Yes

[tropic trail]

How did I miss this?

Must be a novels thing

[unborn glacier]

Read Before the Storm

[tropic trail]

Yup, it's a novel thing

[unborn glacier]

The got split up when the Forsaken attacked Southshore

[tropic trail]

Interesting

[jagged wigeon]

@tropic trail hope you’re happy I’ve spent the last 5 minutes searching up Anduin and Taelia fanart

[tropic trail]

More interesting is, who is the father?

[jagged wigeon]

[unborn glacier]

A lower classman who Calia loved.

[tropic trail]

Because Calia couldn't have given birth post Legion

[unborn glacier]

It was pre Fall of Lordaeron

[tropic trail]

That makes more sense

[jagged wigeon]

There’s a good chance blizz forgot about them

[tropic trail]

"Hey Terenas! I know Arthas killed you and then died, but at least your granddaughter can claim the throne!"

[tulip sun]

Well

She is presumed dead

[tropic trail]

What's her name?

[unborn glacier]

Calia was to announce her pregnancy after Arthas was to wed, that way it wouldn't be as much of a shock.

You actually learn about it in Rise of the Lich King too

[tropic trail]

I should probably get the books

All of them

[unborn glacier]

Who?

@tropic trail A lot of the books are great

[tropic trail]

I tried not giving attention to books/comics/novels since I have a long history with NetherRealm Studios and what's canon between games and them

[unborn glacier]

Honestly my two least favorite were Before the Storm and Shadows Rising

[tropic trail]

Literally said "Games are canon, comics are only as canon as we want them to be"

That's poor storytelling if you ask me

Make a proper continuity that spans both the comics and games

[jagged wigeon]

Rise of the Lich King books are pure sex

[unborn glacier]

Nah. I love intermedium storytelling. I just wish there was some element of the novel lore seen in game for plebs who don't like reading

[tropic trail]

If you don't read, you got no right to complain about the story in a fucking RPG

[unborn glacier]

Big true

[jagged wigeon]

I don’t care what Ed Boone says, my ending to Injustice is He-Man defeating Evil Superman

[tropic trail]

Batman just gets 3 chapters in Injustice 2. Casually

[jagged wigeon]

Sad stuff really

[tropic trail]

Let's not talk about NetherRealm. I'm already getting angry

[jagged wigeon]

Lol

No problem

But yeah they suck

[tropic trail]

At least watch Nobbel explain the story to you if you aren't gonna read quest text, for crying out loud

"Haha Bolvar bad he got his ass beat by Sylvanas with his army by his side"

Yea, but Sylvanas was amped beyond reason

"I don't hear you over the sound of my ignorance"

[tulip sun]

Calia's kid

[unborn glacier]

No, she's not

In Before the Storm, she and her father are presumed to be alive by Calia and the Naaru

[terse patrol]

Taelia x Anduin is cringe. Creating a character just to be the protagonist’s love interest is lame.

[tropic trail]

But Taelia is more

She is canonically the one who went through the Kul Tiras quests

[jagged wigeon]

Let my boi have his buff GF

[terse patrol]

I’d rather have Anduin x Yrel or Anduin x Tess.

Just take the time to build it up.

I’m not a Taelia fan.

[jagged wigeon]

Yrel

https://tenor.com/view/culture-man-of-culture-cultured-gif-10903367

Better

[vapid peak]

Yep. Pretty much

[tulip sun]

Maybe after we see Taelia develop more

But I'd say she is most likely

[tropic trail]

Well

Tess is an assassin princess. That's a cool storyline to follow. Why don't they do anything with her?

I did a quick Google search. Lorna Crowley has way more fanart than Tess Greymane

People either know her more or like her more

Lorna is really cool, too

Girl in a dress with a shotgun, becomes front line warrior

[uncut vault]

Lorna was an actual character in Cata, Tess was pretty much just a plot device like Mia until Legion

and even then she's barely got a character beyond a few bullet points

[tulip sun]

She recently got the worgen heritage too

Both appeared in the darkshore warfront too

[jagged wigeon]

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wowpedia/images/4/43/Tess_Greymane_Skyfire.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/178?cb=20160818065656

Tess kinda looks meh

Really she just needs a model redesign like all the major NPCs and we’re good

Lorna is just a treat to look at

And with a shot gun?

Forget about it

[terse patrol]

Spanners take on the two is real cute.

https://twitter.com/rgspanner/status/1410496176068214787?s=21

RSpanner (@RGSpanner)

I am so, so sorry. But she's not.

Likes

450

Twitter · Jul 1, 2021, 7:11 AM

https://twitter.com/rgspanner/status/1410341382036807685?s=21

RSpanner (@RGSpanner)

Another old one but it still makes me smile. He's fine. He's completely fine.

Likes

438

Twitter · Jun 30, 2021, 8:56 PM

@uncut vault

[uncut vault]

you really dont need to ping me for that haha

[terse patrol]

[jagged wigeon]

Yeah that’s some cute shit

[jagged wigeon]

Though you not like it, Grizz also makes some cute stuff @terse patrol

[dense plover]

Pretty sure this is not ptr spoilers anymore

[jagged wigeon]

True

But I wanted to post this before moving on

[tropic trail]

Honestly, I see Anduin and Taelia's relationship be like this

Also, Taelia has some huge booba in this fanart

[young latch]

The cosmology stuff is always my favorite

[young latch]

At this point it just feels like they took the soul shattering ritual Arthas did in the old lore extremely literally.

Which I like a lot less than, just, letting people have organic experiences and that dictating their character development rather than unnatural magic affecting agency to a considerable degree.

But I think she probably did the best she could with the rules of the world. And if in tact Sylvanas finally gets to make her own real choices I think that’s incredibly good for the future of this narrative.

[tropic trail]

I want Sylvanas to stop wearing the Mawsworn armor and wear something that symbolizes redemption, if that's their path for her

[slender quest]

Yeah I agree

that armor is shitty anyway

[tropic trail]

Yup

[slender quest]

her new maw armor

[young latch]

It’s more that people are irritated with nobody thinking the Scarlet Crusade mattered with how much of an actual theeat they were which made the forsaken act even more hostile to the living.

People write it off as “it doesn’t matter “cause a dreadlord tricked them” instead of “these are humans who were inspired to do a lot of heinous things because the dread lord was working with prejudices that were already there.”

And like… it was very clear to me in Silverpine questing that Sylvanas wanted to avoid death and the end of the forsaken through ruthless tactics and that she does still have some emotion or empathy despite trying to turn it off all the time.

[tropic trail]

Exposed outer thigh with armor that looks like bones

Why?

It's not sexy, it just looks silly

[slender quest]

I like her Legion Armor the most

[young latch]

Same

[tropic trail]

The Scarlet Crusade was a real threat. Consider that every member can use the Light. Now, consider how OP the Light can make someone

The Scarlet Crusade ain't given enough credit for anything

[tropic trail]

I think they should give her an outfit more along the lines of Alleria

Alleria looks freakin awesome

Also, why is Vereesa unimportant?

She's the least known and least cared about Windrunner sister

You could literally cut Vereesa out of WoW and bugger all would change

[slender quest]

I can imagine that they could give her an slighty updated model with 9.2

Like her old Bow

[young latch]

Read the fairy tale book. Vereesa has an extremely important and emotional story in it.

[tropic trail]

To Sylvanas?

[slender quest]

maybe some color changes

yeah to Sylvanas

[young latch]

It made me like Vereesa.

I didn’t used to care about Her either

[tropic trail]

NetherRealm made me hate buying books/comics/novels associated with the game

I blame it on the Injustice writers

[young latch]

This story was by Cat Valente who focuses on folklore and mythology novels.

[tropic trail]

"The comics are only as canon as we need them to be"

[young latch]

She rarely writes for games.

[tropic trail]

I'll consider buying the WoW books, in the future

[young latch]

I think the fairy tale one in particular was great and worrh it because it’s not just about all of the famous characters

Also the Vulpera story was way better than I thought it would be and it was incredibly upsetting in a good way

[tropic trail]

I know playing both factions is the best way to experience WoW's story

But I never even considered playing Horde

None of the races look appealing to me. I'm destined to be a boring human :)

[young latch]

You have this totally backwards.

[tropic trail]

My phone's dying

Talk to you when I'm phone

Phone?

Home

[young latch]

I think this changed after she was shown that she’d be sent to forever hell— or, more factually, that a part of her was already in forever hell literally because if what frostmourne did to her soul.

So we have a fragmented person who’s actually worse off than most forsaken in terms of being a manifested malevolent spirit missing key parts of herself locked away in the maw.

Do I think this was the plan from the start of WC3? Not really.

Do I think they veered hard into this since Cataclysm? Yeah, I do.

[young latch]

I’m in the same boat. I’ll take it, but I think there could have been a much better and cooler story for Sylvanas since cataclysm.

[slender quest]

Agree

One that doesnt make her a villain

In my opinion, she should've always been an anti hero

[young latch]

I think she always should have been “slightly ruthless but always on the player’s side, but maybe she’s going to do something you don’t entirely agree with.”

But I think the character they did that best with was illidan.

[young latch]

Strongly agree.

I definitely don’t think a cycle of abuse narrative was appropriate for /a war general/ who fought for good.

[young latch]

Well I still feel like “good guys always win, bad guys always lose” is just as boring in narrative so I’d like some unkillable bad guys lol.

I mean Sargeras is technically unkilled but he’s dead in terms of “removed from the story for a good while.”

[unborn glacier]

I want the Jailer to not be dealt with this expac

[young latch]

I think I agree.

[unborn glacier]

He should be the new Legion/Sargeras level threat to the Warcraft universe

[young latch]

I need to understand him more I think.

I don’t really get him as of yet.

I know he’s bitter and wants people to serve him and be miserable but I kind of want to know why and I kind of want to know why he was punished in the first place.

I guess we know what he wants as a character but what does he actually need as a character.

What does his form of self-actualization actually look like?

I don’t have a sense of that yet.

[jagged wigeon]

The problem is he’s coming off as an Aizen

Like everything that happens is all a part of his plan

Even if he loses

Nope

Still a part of his plan

[young latch]

I think I’d like to see more villains who entice people into wickedness and aren’t really acting upon a strict plan.

More “I’ll take what I can get” improvisation.

[unborn glacier]

Nah, that's nzoth. Zovaal has yet to lose at all in his plans

[young latch]

“Sure it’s wrong to murder, but think about who these orc babies will grow up to be. :)”

[jagged wigeon]

Find then he’s Naraku

[unborn glacier]

Garrosh

[unborn glacier]

Idk these names

[jagged wigeon]

I’m a weeb

Sorry

[young latch]

Well with such stunning counter defenses as “I hid the seal under my pillow” and “let’s deliver a seal to him that we ourselves unlock” does zoval even need a plan to win

XD

[unborn glacier]

Lol

[young latch]

He was a great villain. And I think he should have stuck around without being put into a position of highest importance too fast.

It’s clear to me that Blizzard had disagreements on whether he should be a hero or villain but I think he’s strongest as a villain, especially as a foil to Saurfang.

I also think alliance could benefit from some villains who don’t get thrown away so fast.

[jagged wigeon]

Jaina is/was the best you’d get in all honesty

A shame we can’t swap older Jaina for Young Jaina

As she is now she definitely would have joined in purging with Arthas

[young latch]

Like, lady Waycrest I think was more interesting than… ashvane, who was a terrible villain.

[young latch]

Jaina’s not a villain. She’s a hero that they made imperfect. I just wish they didn’t 180 her personal philosophy so much.

[unborn glacier]

Garrosh did nothing wrong except be a racist

[young latch]

Or thinking he deserved to run the entire horde despite being stuck and mopy in Nagrand most of his life and have extremely little war experience

I liked Saurfang a lot before they tried to make him the Sylvanas foil which… was extremely forced and they barely had any history with one another so it just came across as awkward.

Just two completely unrelated life stories and character arcs sliding up against each other like two lost eels.

[unborn glacier]

Uhh, you must not be familiar with his story

Because he DIDN'T want to

Even in Nagrand he thought himself unfit due to his rage and his shame; his father

[young latch]

Why’d he challenge Thrall for it in Northrend then?

[unborn glacier]

It was Thrall and Grandmother Geyah who changed his mind

[young latch]

Did thrall tell him that he expected him to issue a makgorah when he felt he was ready?

Because the Northrend challenge felt like an attempted seize rather than a passing of a torch

[jagged wigeon]

Garrosh did try and retcon

Which is always a sin

[unborn glacier]

No. It was in the wrath pre patch event for horde. Garrosh did not think thrall took the Scourge as a grave enough threat to the Horde.

[young latch]

Oh, okay, I never got to play that.

IDK if he was correct or not then to assume that.

[unborn glacier]

Even in cata, when thrall passes the title of Warchief to Garrosh, Garrosh nearly fights him because he does not want it

He reluctantly takes the title In the end

[young latch]

What a weird choice. But for hating the role he sure leaned into it.

[unborn glacier]

He surrounded himself with the wrong people

That's what happened

[young latch]

I’m realizing that Cataclysm is the point in the story where a lot of okay characters just became really unhinged.

[unborn glacier]

In cata, he surrounded himself with Blackrock orcs of the Dark Horde and Dragonmaw orcs

[young latch]

Whoever all wrote Catalclysm I think really wanted to push horde into a “they’re definitely villains but villains can be cool” box

[unborn glacier]

Cata was written all over the place actually

Case in point: Stonetalon

I fell in love with Garrosh in Stonetalon

[young latch]

Yes that’s a good point

He’s a completely different character there

[unborn glacier]

In the WoW diary, it turns out, the writers were on different pages for cata. One half of the team believed that the decision was for Garrosh to be a heroic figure, the other half had not relayed that they were taking Garrosh down the villian path

[young latch]

It’s so awkward hearing the women and children speech knowing about Theramore later xD

[unborn glacier]

I still think to this day, Theramore was an absolutely genius tactical move

I will never fault Garrosh for it.

It's Warcraft, not Peacecraft

[young latch]

Well it’s also a major tactical mistake by turning one of the most powerful and neutral wizards on azeroth into your enemy imo

Especially if they’re a mostly civilian city just vibing

But I guess they could have easily become a choke point for colonization of that whole continent

[unborn glacier]

Jaina was supposed to die too

[dark vale]

9.2

[light compass]

https://twitter.com/SteveDanuser/status/1415783831924133889

Steve Danuser (@SteveDanuser)

@TheRedShirtGuy "Necromancer" has a different meaning in Maldraxxus. They can take a fallen body and infuse it with energy to make a mindless servant, or move a soul from one body to another. But if say Draka was killed, they could not raise her from the dead. Her soul would be gone.

Twitter · Jul 15, 2021, 9:22 PM

[unborn glacier]

Sketchy file

[rotund prawn]

Terrorismcraft

[unborn glacier]

Wat

[rotund prawn]

I mean it’s a killing of unaligned non-combatants

[tropic trail]

Not necessarily--Theramore was a legitimate military target the second it was stationing and mobilizing enemy combatants and resources

[unborn glacier]

No, they were a memberstate of the Alliance

[unborn glacier]

This ☝️

[rotund prawn]

Okay it might not specifically be a war crime, but it's a lotta collateral damage

[unborn glacier]

How so?

[rotund prawn]

Oh, I mistook Theramore for Dalarsn cause Jaina’s in both of them

Seems like it was a big military combatant before it got nuked

[deep pawn]

It was.

I'm hoping some real competition for WoW spurs some innovation.

Give me a 20-30 minute story cinematic please

[unborn glacier]

That will never happen

A cinematic that long would cost hundreds of millions of dollars

[dense plover]

or would be a series of in engine cinematics like in FFXIV

in which case eventually it starts to feel like a slog

because you signed up to play a game, not watch a movie

30 min is literally longer than the average TV episode (22 min)

the end of the base ARR i believe is something like 40 min of cinematics

and its a SLOG

especially b/c a large chunk isnt skippable

[tropic trail]

Like, why would you want one game to be more like another game in the first place? Keep both games distinct and different so there's a point to playing two different games

[dense plover]

^^^^^

this

there should be overlap to encourage innovation

but not in an attempt to replace each other

[tropic trail]

Like ferreal, constantly trying to be the same as something else just leads to leagues of homogenized bullshit

[young latch]

why does it sound like elune is trying to talk during the emotional moments of Pixar's UP

[tropic trail]

Because it's fake

[young latch]

also: good lord the new mega dungeon is super bugged

the mail boss's explosives couldn't be picked up and when we wiped in menagerie our whole party couldn't res xD

[light compass]

https://twitter.com/ChristieGolden/status/1415891153656848386

Christie Golden (@ChristieGolden)

I may regret this, will delete if so but: in pretty much any medium the writers are the LEAST able to go unstoppably rogue & the LEAST able to throw their weight around. Except for fiction writers doing their own work, we’re there to support, not dictate, & there’s often a team.

Likes

194

Twitter · Jul 16, 2021, 4:28 AM

[austere gazelle]

where does that comes from ? 😮

And I believe something like this will play during the " Power of Night " cinematic

[tropic trail]

Those serpents chasing each other's tails in the new Shadowlands cosmology chart are mighty interesting

I'll say what everyone is thinking:

Sneks

[unborn glacier]

It's the Oroboros

It is symbology for eternity

[tropic trail]

[ouro]

[haughty hound]

Ouro - https://ptr.wowhead.com/npc=15517/ouro - PTR 9.1.0

Ouro

PTR 9.1.0

[tropic trail]

Impossible!

[unborn glacier]

Huh?

[tropic trail]

Ouro + Oribos = Ouroboros

[unborn glacier]

O.o

[tropic trail]

Don't mind me, just being a meme

[unborn glacier]

Did you take rins drugs?

[tropic trail]

[Boomer Brew]

[haughty hound]

Boomer Brew - https://ptr.wowhead.com/item=105702/boomer-brew - PTR 9.1.0

Boomer Brew

PTR 9.1.0

[tropic trail]

I took this

Baifeng should buy fang

[deep pawn]

I honestly just want more story in WoW

So much is punted to books

People feel disconnected from the story cause of the way it's presented and then the content patch is timegated weekly.

It's not fun to get just 5-10 minute of plot a week

[terse patrol]

Having story critical information in the books is bad.

[slender quest]

I just had a funny thought.
Imagine blizzard adds a special dialogue in 9.2 to the Sylvanas loyalists where the real Sylvanas mocks us because we supported her bad part/soul with all those crimes in BfA.
"Champion.... how could you watch me do all those horrible things and even support me...." 😆
New Sylvy mocking my poor belf girl for always believing in her

[hazy kettle]

"I am including our CORRECT cosmology chart here!" https://www.wowhead.com/news/grimoire-of-the-shadowlands-and-beyond-features-a-new-cosmology-chart-and-the-323424

The friggin' flex.

[cunning fossil]

Lmao

Brokers are very sure if themselves

[cunning fossil]

Tbh that's a fair question.
And it's the same question my BE would ask, traitor.

[slender quest]

haha #Proudtobealoyalist 😆 🤓 #Ididitforthegreatergood

[tropic trail]

#StillAlliance

[terse patrol]

@slender quest Know what, I want this, just to see the Sylvanas stans reeeee.

[slender quest]

I want this too. Because it makes sense

[tropic trail]

Meh, it kinda operates under the assumption that having the rest of her soul a solves her of her past actions. It really doesn't. I wouldn't even say it was her "good half" as much as "the rest of it"

[slender quest]

And I would not "reeeee" at all

[terse patrol]

I mean, some would reeee.

[slender quest]

Well it is her "good half" as described in the fairy tale lore book

Literally her good part

[cunning fossil]

I wonder what that is. What was the "greater good"?
Question: Is your BE a Rogue?

[tropic trail]

In a fairy tail, sure, but practically it'd be "every part that wasn't specifically the grief and rage used to make a banshee that grew and adapted to become a semi-functional monarch double agent"

[slender quest]

I have 2 belfs, 1 a rogue the other one a hunter.
"greater good" you could say is that what exactly Sylvanas thought it was, before the Jailer told her the truth (the truth that btw everyone knew already except sylvy) . Remaking a bad system and creating a new one, one that is just

basically everything she told anduin in the no more lies cinematic

[slender quest]

not "in a fairy tale" in the book. That's literally what happened to Vereesa judging by what happened now in 9.1

Wowhead did already a very good post about that specific topic

why the vereesa and "sylvanas second soul" story is different to the other storys told in the same book

[cunning fossil]

If the Truth is something that everyone except Sylvanas knew, I'm sorry, but I'm just gonna have to say she was stupid there.
Like c'mon. If everyone else saw it coming, surely she did too >->

[slender quest]

Agree.

[terse patrol]

“Hey, so, I never realized this guy I was working with was a total meanie despot, especially after seeing him mass subjugate souls and forge them into weapons and slave soldiers for his armies.”

“Also I’m working with Kel’thuzad.”

[tropic trail]

Imo, Sylvie must do some chores to atone for her sins

Do my callings for me, bitch!

[terse patrol]

“The guy whose ressurection destroyed the Sunwell, and was the whole reason Quel’thalas was invaded.”

“The whole reason why I died.”

“Oh, and my buddy the Jailer made the Lich King.”

“Hmmst.”

Sylvanas is either a giga hypocrite or legitimately, utterly stupid.

Like, crayons up the nose stupid.

[tropic trail]

Desperation is a hell of a drug

[cunning fossil]

Can you be so desperate that you literally can't see the obvious red flaga

[tropic trail]

At the end of the day she just didn't feel like she deserved to be damned forever to the Maw

[cunning fossil]

And we're not talking about an abusive relationship here

[tropic trail]

She didn't wanna be eternally damned to the Maw for what she believed wasn't her fault

I mean

[terse patrol]

Maybe she should have stopped to think

[cunning fossil]

Also what made her so sure she'd end up in the Maw first?
The vision could've been something manufactured

[tropic trail]

She could just prolong her life as long as she can

It's not like undead age

[terse patrol]

“What if I was damned to the Maw because this guy wanted me to believe that?”

[tropic trail]

Skeleton Sylvanas sounds cool

[cunning fossil]

I think she'd have gone to revendreth or directly to Ardenweald

[terse patrol]

Revendreth.

[tropic trail]

Sylvanas?

Bastion, if not for the war crimes

Revendreth then Bastion

[cunning fossil]

Yes. Because I don't believe the arbiter would judge her based on what she's done in Undeath and under the Lich Kings control

[terse patrol]

Eh

I could have seen Sylvanas staying in Revendreth.

[slender quest]

Or... she was just written that way and is none of those 2 ?

[terse patrol]

Becoming a Venthyr.

[tropic trail]

That's already Kael'thas

[pulsar minnow]

Sylvanas would never go to Bastion

[cunning fossil]

I would say Revendreth after this but before the Genocidal shit

[pulsar minnow]

After all, she will never serve

[cunning fossil]

But after that? Maw is 75% likely

[slender quest]

Sylvanas would go to the night faes, as mentioned in that one book

[tropic trail]

Maybe even Baldraxxus Sylvanas

[cunning fossil]

Yeah that's what I was thinking.
Revendreth to atone (if she died before burning Teldraasil) and to Ardenweald had she not been turned into a Banshee

Maldraxxus is a good contender too tbh

[slender quest]

even after teldrassil

[cunning fossil]

I don't know about that

[slender quest]

lets say taht whole " 2 soul thing" was not canon, she would go the revendreth

[tropic trail]

Tbh I don't know where my human monk would go

[cunning fossil]

Because that's also AFTER making a deal with the jailer

[slender quest]

then probably to the night faes

[cunning fossil]

So she's actively working against the cycle st this point

In which case, Maw

100%

[slender quest]

now with the new lore bits? I dont even think they would send her to revendreth

maw 0 %

[tropic trail]

I think my human monk would go to Ardenweald when she died

But I still chose Bastion as my covenant

[cunning fossil]

Mass Genocide + Desteuctuin of the workings of Death

[slender quest]

yep, not maw worthy

[cunning fossil]

Is kinda not something you can simply atone for

Bruh.

[slender quest]

revendreth has world destroyed

dont come me with bruh jesus

stop being biased and see it more objectively

[cunning fossil]

Revendrerh has plenty of tyrants.
But NONE from what I've seen that actively worked AGAINST the realms of death

So no

[pulsar minnow]

If we're seeing it objectively, she released the Jailer. The worst thing anybody could do

[cunning fossil]

I think it's maw 100%

^^^^^^^

[slender quest]

but she did that after the teldrassil thing

[tropic trail]

We're also still just mortals, so our personal connection to the covenants is entirely voluntary. It's also very likely that our characters would go to a realm not of the covenants, since the Shadowlands are made of innumerable numbers of realms and the ones we see are just the ones that keep the lights on

Just saying

[slender quest]

we are talking about what would happen when she died after teldrassil right?=

[terse patrol]

Revendreth imo is for ALL sinful souls. Arthas would have gone there. Garrosh went there. Kael’thas. Probably Kil’Jaeden is there somewhere (if he’s dead-dead.)

[tropic trail]

Not irredeemable souls

[terse patrol]

Revendreth doesn’t mean you actually atone, those who don’t get the Maw treatment.

[pulsar minnow]

Wherever she would go, it wouldn't be a very nice place after what she's done.

[tropic trail]

Kil'jaeden's soul was destroyed by fel

[slender quest]

exactly honker

[tropic trail]

Fel destroys souls

[terse patrol]

@tropic trail Irredeemable souls still go there.

[tropic trail]

Bye anima

[terse patrol]

The secondary purpose of Revendreth is to siphon their anima away.

[cunning fossil]

I would say that before twldrassil, she would go to Revendreth.
After? Maw

[tropic trail]

Not all of them. A soul being sent directly to the Maw wasn't unheard of

[cunning fossil]

^

Just rarw

[terse patrol]

Arthas being sent to the Maw was so he could likely be used as a huge anima battery.

By the Jailer.

Souls have to be siphoned of anima before going to the Maw.

[tropic trail]

Regardless, it wasn't left to the Arbiter

[cunning fossil]

He wasn't judged yet.

[terse patrol]

Yes I know.

[slender quest]

No

[tropic trail]

Some souls still got sent to the Maw without going to Revendreth before the Arbiter was knocked out

[terse patrol]

If Arthas was irredeemable, he’d have gone to Revendreth and have had his anima siphoned.

[tropic trail]

No

[terse patrol]

Garrosh was clearly unredeemable.

[slender quest]

Sylvanas would've go first Revendreth and if she would fail to atone, then to the maw

[tropic trail]

Revendreth was for souls possible of redemption but ultimately that wasn't guaranteed

[terse patrol]

Ehhhhh.

[tropic trail]

An irredeemable soul from the getgo doesn't go to Revendreth

[terse patrol]

So what makes one unredeemable?

[tropic trail]

Give me my cheese vendor realm of the Shadowlands, Blizzard

[terse patrol]

Revendreth is full of world destroyers and genociders.

[tropic trail]

Like

Sylvanas commits genocide during World War Tree and people still forgive her

@terse patrol Then why did souls ever get sent to the Maw first before the Arbiter was knocked out, huh

Riddle me that

[terse patrol]

That tells me every terrible soul goes to Revendreth for a chance at rehab.

[slender quest]

Exactly what I am talking about. Thats why "WhereAmI" is 100% wrong

[tropic trail]

Please call the fourth war "World War Tree"

Thank

[tropic trail]

Untrue, because souls like Kel'thuzad and other tyrants and conquerors are just as able to be sent to Maldraxxus

[terse patrol]

@tropic trail Where does it say that?

[slender quest]

IF she would die after releasing the Jailer - then we could have a talk about the maw

remember the Jailer gets only free after he gets all of his sigils

[terse patrol]

As for Maldraxxus, it seems the Shadowlands is happy to turn a blind eye to crimes if it means getting new soldiers for its Maldraxxi army.

[pulsar minnow]

No?

[slender quest]

yes ?

[tropic trail]

Kel'Thuzad may have gone to the Maw and was released by Zovaal

[cunning fossil]

He was very free

[pulsar minnow]

The Jailer only needed his sigil to be free

[cunning fossil]

Very POWEFUL by the time we met him

[pulsar minnow]

The other ones are needed to unlock the Sepulcher

[cunning fossil]

And Sylvanas has been working with him at LWAST since Mid legion

[slender quest]

Did we have see the Jailer to be able to leave his realm before he got all of his sigils ?

[terse patrol]

Apparently Kel’thuzad was working for the Jailer likely since he died as a necromancer.

Pre-lichdom.

[tropic trail]

I feel like you do too much feelycrafting and not enough reading. Getting sent to the Maw was still a possibility without being sent to Revendreth first before the Arbiter was knocked out

[slender quest]

he was all the time in the prison - the maw

not able to leave

[pulsar minnow]

Yes. Because of the runes on his body

[cunning fossil]

Just because he wasn't able to leave, doesn't mean he wasn't becoming more and more powerful.
And sylvanas helped him in that the entire time

[pulsar minnow]

The Primus used Domination Magic to keep him from leaving

[cunning fossil]

Hence Maw

[tropic trail]

Not directly. At the time, the only master he was aware of was Ner'zhul

[slender quest]

Yes, but that alone doesnt make her maw worthy. Being manipulated would you never make end up in the maw

[tropic trail]

Just like the rest of the Cult of the Damned

[slender quest]

and I didnt even mantioned the 2 souls thing

[cunning fossil]

She was not manipulated. She willingly chose this path for herself

Also fuck the 2 souls thing

Such a cop out IMO

[tropic trail]

It's one soul, just fragmented

Not multiple souls

[slender quest]

now add manipulation + the 2 souls thing and there is 0 % chance for Sylvanas to go to the maw

the arbiter would send her to revendreth

[tropic trail]

There's only one soul

[slender quest]

without even a doubt

[pulsar minnow]

Not at all. Having two souls does not absolve you of anything

Nor does manipulation

[terse patrol]

Kel'Thuzad says: How fitting that we should face one another here, upon the precipice of Death's victory.
Kel'Thuzad says: For too long I've had to disguise my true motives. Pretend to serve false masters. When all the while, it was I who helped architect Azeroth's end!
Kel'Thuzad says: The hour has come to make you pay for the indignities I suffered at Naxxramas! Now, at long last, you will kneel before Kel'Thuzad!

[slender quest]

yes it does

[cunning fossil]

There was 0 Manipulation. She CHOSE to do everything leading up to this point

[terse patrol]

Sounds like he was always working for the Jailer.

[slender quest]

same thing with mind crontroll

[pulsar minnow]

How so? Ever heard of a guy named Uther?

[cunning fossil]

It wasn't mind control??

[slender quest]

I know

I did an example

[tropic trail]

Plus it's only ONE soul

[pulsar minnow]

So you understand that he took responsibility for every wrongdoing he committed in Bastion correct? Those wrongdoings of course, being arguably far less serious than those of Sylvanas.

[cunning fossil]

This argument is the same as "I had depression so I shot up a school. Don't arrest me and sentence me for life"

It doesn't work

She has minimal excuses

[slender quest]

What I am trying to say is: If your good part of your soul is missing and the other part is only capable of doing the worst, is easy to manipulate - you cant be judged like every other person is

[tropic trail]

I wouldn't even say it was the good part

[terse patrol]

https://twitter.com/morisdreadvale/status/1415850448506982407?s=21

Ny'alothan Blightcaller Stan | 𝗠𝗼𝗿𝗶𝘀 🇵🇸 (@MorisDreadvale)

This is the Sylvanas i missed, before they ruined her in BFA to SL 😤♥️ https://t.co/7nScRqCHzU

Twitter · Jul 16, 2021, 1:47 AM

[tropic trail]

Just the rest of it

[cunning fossil]

She. Was. Never. Manipuated.

[terse patrol]

[cunning fossil]

NEVER

[slender quest]

It was

[cunning fossil]

Then explain why she felt affection affection cared about Nafhanos???

Tell me then

[slender quest]

what are you talking about? Ofc she was. thats the whole thing of the 9,1 cinematic ?

[cunning fossil]

Why she cared about the Forsaken

[slender quest]

She thought the jailer want to recreate the universe into something that is just

literally her words

[tropic trail]

Means to an end

[pulsar minnow]

How do we even know that what was left of her was only capable of doing the worst? You're just making stuff up now. Again, Uther had half his soul split and he was judged just the same.

[cunning fossil]

No?? She just realized she FUCKED UP MAJORLY

[cunning fossil]

The entire time though?

[tropic trail]

Alright now this is just arguing over semantics

[cunning fossil]

My ba

I thought she genuinely cared about the forsaken before BFA

[slender quest]

I refer to the "azeroth fairy tales" book

[pulsar minnow]

Do you realize that you just sourced a fairy tale book

[tropic trail]

Eh, she didn't even totally care about them when she was first freed from the Scourge. She just recognized them as an asset

[slender quest]

Seriously. Do I have to explain this to you now?

[pulsar minnow]

Sylvanas said she pitied them

[cunning fossil]

Damn that seems cold. Now I have even less reason to sympathize

You are talking to a LEGION BABY

So forgive me if I didn't pick up on pre Legion nuances

[tropic trail]

I mean, to be fair, the fairytails can be incredibly subjective and romanticized and not fully reminiscent of the truth. The moon and sun of Azeroth weren't literally some lady's eyes that she ripped out and threw into the sky

[pulsar minnow]

There's no explaining to be done. Just because you have a split soul, it doesn't mean you can be absolved in the WoW universe. Uther is a prime example of one who was not absolved completely. He's still trying to make up for what he did, and does that in 9.1 by working with Adrestes to reunite the Forsworn and Kyrian. So Sylvanas cannot be absolved either

[tropic trail]

Sips tea in MoP baby

If a fragment of Sylvanas does the crime, all of Sylvanas does the time

[cunning fossil]

Yeah

And no, Manipulation was never a case. She was lied to maybe, but if she's such a brilliant tactician. Why didn't she see it coming?

[pulsar minnow]

Look I don't hate Sylvanas but what she did cannot be waved aside. That would be incredibly insulting to the fans. Especially the Nelf fans

[cunning fossil]

Did she really think the Jailer had her values at heaer?

[slender quest]

You are comparing 2 different things here. 1) Uther was killed, his soul got split and he was send to the afterlife, at least a part of his soul.

Sylvanas was killed, a part of her soul (courage) was send to the Jailer, the other part was raised into a banshee.
Now, do you want me to describe you what Banshees are?

Like what it does to you to be a banshee

[cunning fossil]

100%. I don't hate her either.

[slender quest]

I'm not saying we should wave anything aside. I'm telling you it is not possible or at least it is not that simple anymore to judge Sylvanas alone for her crimes in undeath

And with that said, there would be no chance she would be send to the maw

[tropic trail]

Let's judge an omniscient being that has been shown to me more powerful than the titans

That'll do in court

[pulsar minnow]

By saying she can be absolved you are saying it can be waved aside. And no we can judge her crimes in Undeath because she's really no different from Uther. Both of which had their soul split, Uther having some serious PTSD and emotional trauma, etc... Sylvanas can atone but she cannot be forgiven just because her soul was split

[tropic trail]

Btw when are Sylvanas and Goku fighting?

[slender quest]

She can atone and I never said she should be forgiven. The discussion started because that guy said she would end up in the maw - which is just wrong

[pulsar minnow]

They already did. Sylvanas won. Plot armor y'know? Goku will come back for next weeks episode and they'll fight again

[slender quest]

She would go - if at all - to revendreth

Depends how they will write this "soul split" thing

[tropic trail]

"Cannot... Let him reach... the... SUNWELL"

If she doesn't get flat-out obliterated or goes on to be a free agent, or just kept alive in undeath as a prisoner

She's actively in custody right now

I can see her just being kept an undying prisoner

[slender quest]

Also, the other soul part of Sylvanas should not suffer because of the bad one.
Imagine you are the other part, lets call it the ranger general. You die a hero, end up in the maw because of Frostmourne and stuck in there. Maybe even get tortured.
Now, years later , your soul finds it way back to your body and the otrher part.
And now you gonna be judged, because that "bad" part of you fucked up big time

yeah no thanks

[cunning fossil]

Does anyone have any idea what the FUCK the Jailer is saying???

I can't understand him at all

[tropic trail]

(un)life imprisonment is a LOOOOONG time for the undead, especially when you're now capable of feeling guilt probably

[slender quest]

I want Sylvanas to judge herself. Like she says "I want to atone for the crimes of my other part" . Thats ok with me

[tropic trail]

Turn on subtitles

[tropic trail]

She's not in a position to judge herself

She's a war criminal

[cunning fossil]

Still doesn't absolve the sound quality. It's ass :(

[tropic trail]

Turn down your bass levels

[slender quest]

We will see how that plays out 🙂

[tropic trail]

Dude

No

[slender quest]

She is in a position right now where she is very important to defeat the jailer

[tropic trail]

War criminals can't judge themselves. Even if she feels guilty for what she's done, that still for the wronged to deal with

As of now, she's a detained criminal asset

[slender quest]

You're not wrong. But again, we will see how that whole " souls split" thing will play out.
If you believe that she will just be judged and put into prison in 9.1 end campaign you set yourself up for big disappointments 😄

[tropic trail]

Sylvanas will just have the Sasuke redemption arc

🙄

[slender quest]

The best you will get is a self sacrifice.

[terse patrol]

I still wonder what the whisper means regarding the Light making a deal with the enemy of all. The Void considers death, afaik, to be the enemy of all. Makes sense, considering the Jailer wants to undo reality. But uh.

[slender quest]

with her soul being then judged I guess

[terse patrol]

How will that come into play?

[tropic trail]

I'm not setting myself up for disappointment because I don't get disappointed because I don't set expectations. I sit and watch the story unfold

[terse patrol]

That’d be funny, what if the Sunwell was built on top of the Sepulcher or something, and the current Sunwell is a font of Light.

Just spitballing.

[tropic trail]

Lothraxion

[slender quest]

That's a good mindset 👍

So you can make your peace

[terse patrol]

That could be the connection as well, ye.

[tropic trail]

The simplest answer is usually the right one

[slender quest]

Which is?

[tropic trail]

... Lothraxion

Talking to Honkerton

[pulsar minnow]

It also makes even more sense when you think about how Denathrius is quite literally the enemy of all

He's only ever been working for himself

Doesn't even care about the Eternal Ones

[cunning fossil]

It's so qiwrd that Revendreth, which is all about trying to be a decent person or becoming one

Literally has the worst person as it's leader

Like he's clearly a Narcissist

[pulsar minnow]

But he's also so contagiously likeable as a villain

[tropic trail]

Eh, it's a corrupt aristocracy built upon pride as a currency

[strange falcon]

"qiwrd" who?

[pulsar minnow]

Voice Acting can define a character

[cunning fossil]

Like he doesn't represent the values of Revendreth at all

[pulsar minnow]

Like Bwonsamdi or Ve'nari. They're so beloved because of their amazing voice actors

[cunning fossil]

Oh no I agree. I'd like to have him in my house

[tropic trail]

It's a warped version of pride

[strange falcon]

Ve'nari is beloved? i thought dennyboi was the one beloved from SL cast

[cunning fossil]

I suppose but isn't pride like a horrible sin as well?

[strange falcon]

the Ve'nari Voiceactor is the same as ANA from overwatch

[cunning fossil]

Why not both. Venari has an Ana frok Overwatch but Bitchy vibe to her

Ahh

I knew I heard her from some where. She does good work

[pulsar minnow]

We just need Hammond as the Jailer

[strange falcon]

i mean,i knew you liked guys,but i didnt know you liked non-humans with hooves too

[cunning fossil]

It'd be more clear than whatever garbled mess we hear currently.
Seriously can't hear him about the mumbles

[strange falcon]

oh hey it do be tiridan

[cunning fossil]

Are you kidding me those are the best kind???

[terse patrol]

Ok, so, dumb big brain moment.

I’m likely wrong.

[pulsar minnow]

They really should get rid of the current filter on his voice and replace it with the one they put over Krexus with some added reverb so the shift doesn't seem as weird

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wtDhxtx14c&t=58s

[terse patrol]

5 keys to herald their coming. The Jailer has the five sigils that freed him, now he seeks to go to the Sepulcher to remake reality. The Sepulcher ends up being under the Sunwell or something. In a last ditch effort to stop the Jailer, Alleria ends up accidentally stopping the Jailer’s plans but also giving the Void access to the Sunwell and the Sepulcher.

(Again, likely wrong.)

But it would be wild.

[tropic trail]

We still need to see the rest of 9.1 story before we can really start to wildly speculate

[pulsar minnow]

I think the Sepulcher will end up being in the Shadowlands, but the Void could gain access through a certain platinum blonde heavily armored royal priest who just so happens to be bound in servitude of the Jailer

[terse patrol]

The speculation atm is he’s going to Azeroth.

[tropic trail]

Well, we still have more campaign chapters coming

[terse patrol]

“Death comes for the soul of your world.”

[slender quest]

@tropic trail Sorry I don't want to start the discussion again but that's the wowhead article I meant about the fairy tale lore book:
https://de.wowhead.com/news/lore-spotlight-deep-dive-into-sylvanas-and-the-jailer-hints-in-folks-and-322504

One thing that sets this story apart from the others in this book, is the sense that it's never really been told. Most of the stories are presented as tales that are told to children, or around campfires - literally the folk and fairy tales of Azeroth. Uther Lightbringer's story, The Paladin's Beast, is presented as told by "old nans and old grans" to "fussy princelings and princesses who refused to sleep". This story, however, is told from Vereesa Windrunner's own perspective, and yet ends with her forgetting the story itself before she can share it with anyone.

This gives us the impression that the story is reliable canon. Since no one on Azeroth has likely heard this story, the only audience that could possibly exist for it is us - the players of World of Warcraft. Which makes us feel like the ones who are meant to learn something here.

[terse patrol]

I think we’re going to find out Azeroth isn’t a Titan, and that we’ve been lied to.

[slender quest]

You can take Vereesas vision as more or less canon

[terse patrol]

She might be the last First One.

[pulsar minnow]

That's what i've been saying forever

finally I got some other believers

also- something worth noting

[tropic trail]

"... the impression that this is reliable canon"

[pulsar minnow]

I don't know why they did it like this. But the logo for Order on the new cosmology is the Tazavesh Gearglider which definitely appears to be First One in origin

[terse patrol]

What if the Titans somehow captured Azeroth, and the planet is just a giant prison.

“This world is a prison.”

lol

[tropic trail]

Because that's the cosmology as interpreted by the Brokers. This is still just another facet

[terse patrol]

Like, Azeroth is a First One the Titans captured.

[slender quest]

now you sound like that one streamer

forgot his name. He plays now FFXIV

[terse patrol]

I’m spitballing, not saying I’m right.

[pulsar minnow]

I don't think the Titans have any knowledge of the Shadowlands

[slender quest]

And Im not saying you're wrong ^^

[terse patrol]

Thing is, Blizzard has been going for extremely dramatic expansion ends lately.

[pulsar minnow]

Denathrius described them as so pigeonholed into their own beliefs that they're the only true gods, and should they find out there's more out there they'll be driven mad

Like Sargeras

[tropic trail]

Yeah okay and Gallywix is actually the only good dreadlord in existence and is actually a good guy setting us up to fight bad guys so we're better good guys 🙄

[terse patrol]

So, the Void fucking over the Sunwell and the reveal that Azeroth is a First One would be a proper expansion end reveal.

[tropic trail]

I think wanting the Sepulcher to be the Sunwell is just secret elf fandom trying to hijack the screentime some more

[pulsar minnow]

I wouldn't describe it as that but I doubt the Sepulcher is on Azeroth in any shape or form

[tropic trail]

Considering it has likely existed since before Azeroth existed

[pulsar minnow]

If it's so difficult to find that it drove the Brokers crazy, it wouldn't just be lying on a World Soul

[terse patrol]

Except

The Brokers have little information about mortals, and consider Azerothians a new curiousity.

Their lore says they’ve been combing over the Shadowlands for information on the Sepulcher.

Why would the place that could remake all reality be just in the Shadowlands?

[pulsar minnow]

Because that's the title of the Expansion. Shadowlands.

[terse patrol]

When it makes more sense for it to be in the material plane, which connects to all planes of existence?

[tropic trail]

Because the Shadowlands largely exists outside of reality as we know it??

We've barely even skimmed the surface of the Shadowlands. We've just seen the major organs

[terse patrol]

I feel like the Jailer is so powerful, we’ll need similarly powered allies to stop him.

[tropic trail]

Or the tip of the iceburg, even

[terse patrol]

See: the Titans.

[pulsar minnow]

I think the way we could also beat the Jailer is by using an ally we haven't really considered

Azeroth

She might finally wake up

[strange falcon]

i know a lot of people are hoping for jailer to be the new sargeras,aka more evil in the background,rather than dealt with in the next patch

and it ends there

[tropic trail]

I mean, the Jailer has also had the advantage of time and being underestimated for longer than we can possibly imagine to plan his plots

[terse patrol]

I don’t feel like that’ll be the case.

[tropic trail]

It's not just about his power level

He has had a LOT of prep time

[pulsar minnow]

He's also got the bonus of badass armor. Cool points = better

[terse patrol]

(I kinda feel like we might get a Sargeras vs Jailer smackdown rage cage fight.)

Jailer vs the guy he manipulated.

[tropic trail]

WHY

Yeah, that'd make Illidan happy 🙄

[terse patrol]

Imagine Sargeras finding out he got fucked with big time.

[tropic trail]

Leave him locked up what's wrong with you

[strange falcon]

like blizz is only good at worldbuilding,not actually telling stories,
and they have their perfect worldbuilding villain in jailer like they did with sargeras

[terse patrol]

https://tenor.com/view/let-them-fight-godzilla-ken-gif-9562555

[strange falcon]

so if they were to just throw him out of the way in less than a year

that would be wasteful

[pulsar minnow]

It could be really cool if Denathrius opened portals to allow the Titans to see what the Jailer was doing, so they just release the beast and have Sargeras go ballistic on Zovaal

[terse patrol]

People like Sargeras and hate the dorky ass Jailer.

So, seeing Sargeras beat his face in would be boss.

[tropic trail]

You can't just use enveloping terms like that

[strange falcon]

because Sargeras had a ton of time to develop,
we barely know anything about the jailer

we dont even know why he looks the way he does,why he's doing this,

anything

[dusty trellis]

We need to put the jailer in jail

[strange falcon]

of course people dont like the jailer,he's paper thin in his character atm

[tropic trail]

That's where he's been, yo

[pulsar minnow]

Hey I will not allow this Jailer slander. Make fun of his voice all you want but this isn't dorky

[dusty trellis]

He needs to go back

[terse patrol]

Because we only found out about the Jailer THIS expansion. Sargeras was teased for several expansions before he even showed his face. They want us to treat the Jailer as a Sargeras level guy, but he just isn’t.

[strange falcon]

sargeras was mentioned back in WC3 or earlier

and even earlier in books

[terse patrol]

Yes.

[tropic trail]

Sargeras was mentioned in WC1

[strange falcon]

he's had like 10years to prep and flesh outt

[terse patrol]

And the Jailer only just got mentioned.

And he showed up in that very same expansion.

[tropic trail]

Literally possessed Medivh

[terse patrol]

No build up.

There’s no reason to find him interesting. He’s just “Lichier King.”

[tropic trail]

The connections have already been made to point out the fingers in all the pots

[terse patrol]

The Jailer deserves nothing. They made him and introduced him in a single expansion, and revealed him as “DA ACTUAL GUY BEHIND ALL THE BAD THINGS.”

[tropic trail]

Lmao okay

[terse patrol]

Sargeras should woop his ass for stealing his thunder.

[tropic trail]

I'll stop replying and let you keep forum posting

Have fun lol

[terse patrol]

https://tenor.com/view/dance-kid-club-gif-9152583

[pulsar minnow]

Sorry just saw this and thought it was too perfect after that Sylvanas conversation

[terse patrol]

Ideal. ^

[pulsar minnow]

This or we could have a boxing match between Sylvanas and Bolvar so good ol crispy face can reclaim his champion's helm after the Primus reforges it

[strange falcon]

jojo meme

bet tiridan hasnt watched it tho and only knows the memes, that would be sad

[pulsar minnow]

I actually got into Part 1 like a month ago and have been working my way through part 2

[tropic trail]

I'm not that into pokemon

[strange falcon]

i forced 5 guildies to watch it by masquerading it as movie night

we're in the 2nd half of part 3

[slender quest]

I wonder how much upset people will be when they see blizzard redeem/semi-redeem Sylvanas 🤔

[opaque pewter]

Can't make everyone happy. The events are experienced differently which makes people's reactions to events much wilder than a typical storytelling.
I think that's fine

[tropic trail]

☝️ ☝️ ☝️

[slender quest]

totally agree with you

[tropic trail]

If they aimed to make everyone happy all of the time then we'd end up with the most homogenized mass-appeal bullshit ever

[strange falcon]

no,because then ppl would complain it's homogenized

there is no escaping the complainers you fool

[coarse quail]

I think that people should stop complain all the time about Wow.

It's too much...just...too much...

[strange falcon]

if they heard you,they'd complain harder

[coarse quail]

I don't think so, I think that...there r people that agree with me🙃

[tropic trail]

I agree with you but every time I state people need to learn the difference between constructive criticism and bitching I get called a Blizzard shill and memed on

[strange falcon]

and also we have twitter,the death of all nuance

[coarse quail]

Its hard too...u know..."move an eye".
I also look at Instagram,at the comments of wow,and it's fucking discusting the comments there,i mean,i try to say "they r just boring",but... it's making me sad,u know what i mean?

[strange falcon]

oh yeah,oppressive negativity

any online game has negativity, wow is just very open about it

dont think it started now

there is actual forum posts from before the game was even out,saying the game was sshit and dead on arrival

[coarse quail]

But it's annoying and depressing to see it.

[strange falcon]

like legit forum posts from the alpha

[coarse quail]

I don't know,i was 4 years old at that time,loll

*3

[strange falcon]

people have never stopped complaining in wow

[coarse quail]

So r u telling me it can last to 2496?

[strange falcon]

not just a wow thing either,every single online game suffers from this

[tropic trail]

I mean, gamers are the worst thing about gaming

[coarse quail]

It's not that I am a gamer, I love Wow so much, it's amazing, fun, increasable and more!

[strange falcon]

remove nuance from gamers and you just have sheep bandwagoning that move more like a hivemind without their own thoughts

if you cant fit your message in a 8word meme,your opinion doesnt count

[slender quest]

There is still room for more toxicity. The wow community is not yet lost. Imagine the wow community would be as toxic as the LoL one is

also I hope we will get to quest with Sylvanas in 9,2 like we did with Illidan. Would be cool

[strange falcon]

oh yeah,LoL is definitely "outwardly" toxic

but being rude is not the only way to be toxic, there is a very wide spectrum,

you could say the ||FF14|| community seems very nice,but is instead very toxic if you poke around the wrong places or ask the wrong questions

[coarse quail]

But,even for all the comments,i know that people live wow so much!! And this's always a 😀 thing!

#horraytowow!

[vapid peak]

I think someone in a discord I'm in brought up a great point about Sylvanas: "her death at frostmourne being self contained, even detailed with arthas torturing and flaying her soul within frostmourne to bring her back as a banshee.
one of the properties of saronite being that it completely destroys an undead, soul and all. meaning danusers rope theory, saronite becomes the shears going through the entire rope, not just a single thread. meaning sylvanas' true soul wholly went to the shadowlands in edge of night, not just a portion"

[slender quest]

? You know that it is said a part of her soul went to the maw/jailer when Arthas killed her in WC3 and not when she killed herself...

[dusty trellis]

Do I have to keep the archivist codex item?

[tropic trail]

You turn those in

It's how you earn ranks with the archivist and buy from him or upgrade Korthia gear

[vapid peak]

Sylvanas had her first piece taken her when she died to Frostmourne. Then the rest of her followed definitely in Edge of Night.

There's a good chance each time she's died a piece of her fluttered into the hands of Zovaal. After she died again in the Cataclysm she seemed to start acting way different

[vapid peak]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/804763881351282748/865784488800550952/unknown.png

[unborn glacier]

That is straight reaching

[tropic trail]

Yeeeaaah just a lil bit

[uncut vault]

I think the zovaal stuff is pretty clearly supposed to be shattering the platform haha

[pulsar minnow]

We already know the Jailer’s logo anyways since it was datamined a while back

This is what it looked like before being smashed into a bazillion pieces

I wonder how they did that anyways. Did they just like hand, say, the Archon a hammer and tell her to just go at it

[vapid peak]

That was datamined arbiter sigil

[unborn glacier]

Which is the JAILERS

[pulsar minnow]

And the Arbiters sigil belongs to the Jailer ^

[vapid peak]

It's strange tho

Cause then what's this https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/865794712841093130/865796969989406750/unknown.png

[pulsar minnow]

Same thing. Just the orb

[vapid peak]

Both images look different to me

[pulsar minnow]

Not every covenant leader has to have an orb ripped out of their chest for them to lose what they are

[vapid peak]

Well not every leader has the power he has either

[pulsar minnow]

Zovaal’s was much more cruel because not only did it take from him his sigil but all his power and status

[vapid peak]

Look where his platform is

Looks like he's the head of the table

We can infer some things from that

[pulsar minnow]

You’re inferring too much

[vapid peak]

I don't think so

[pulsar minnow]

This has nothing to do with Elune

[tropic trail]

The Jailer is definitely in a more unique position when compared to the other Eternal Ones--and his old position on the Pantheon of Death still isn't firmly established. We've still got more expansion and more story to come

[vapid peak]

I never said it had anything to do with Elune

[pulsar minnow]

Then what was that image from earlier?

[vapid peak]

I don't think that's what it says it was

[dusty trellis]

It’s not the one you turn it. I think you get it at the start

[vapid peak]

Many things in those stages don't make it into the final game

[pulsar minnow]

So what was the point?

[vapid peak]

Even if they say something it doesn't mean that it is that thing

Think of the jailer image leak

That was just a concept

[pulsar minnow]

We know what the Jailer’s sigil looks like. The orb is just simply a more complex version of that, and in fact I doubt it’s simply just the sigil. It’s all his power. After all it has the First One Logo on it. Think of it like a packaging seal

Even if the little infinity is his sigil, what was the point in posting that Elune image from earlier

Since we already know the answer anyways

[vapid peak]

Answer to what

[pulsar minnow]

What the Jailers sigil looks like

[vapid peak]

That was somebody else's post not mine

I think that's a reach myself

That's my bad I didn't clarify

[pulsar minnow]

You posted it with no context so we could only be led to believe you were proposing that as a potential theory. Sorry for not seeing that then. Glad we cleared that up. It’s always funny when two people are saying the same thing and don’t realize that lol

[tropic trail]

I feel like this has been a bunch of miscommunication over speculation

[vapid peak]

Yeah my fault 😂

[pulsar minnow]

That’s exactly what it’s been gumball*

[tropic trail]

We should all hug it out and then duel in front of the Gates of Orgrimmar like good ol chums

[vapid peak]

So let's just ignore that entirely since we think that's bunk

[pulsar minnow]

Now the most important thing is what the Jailer’s realm looks like

[vapid peak]

So you see where I'm coming from tho