#beta-ptr-spoilers

1 messages · Page 599 of 1

quasi vale
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in a simpsons episode a clown or krusty idr gets shot out of the circus with the circus canon

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good times

faint nova
young latch
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Please, I need this

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All in all I’m just super happy with Sylvanas development and I want to see her reunited with vareessa even more now.

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(I will never care about Nathanos unfortunately, he’s just not my cup of tea. :p)

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They want mindless slave undead not undead with free will

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And also general discord

upper edge
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Ok what the fuck

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Sylvanas got her soul back?

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I don’t get it

young latch
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Yup

upper edge
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Wait hold on but he crushed the shard

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Im so confused

young latch
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It was a soul crystal holding the essence

upper edge
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So she got her soul back and she went unconscious?

young latch
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When he cuts ties

upper edge
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But her eyes were blue so is she going to return to normal?

young latch
tropic trail
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She's a good girl now :D

young latch
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She’s probably not a different person still

tropic trail
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That's the whole deal though right

young latch
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She’s just not a stunted robot in terms of emotions anymore

upper edge
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So holyfuck I knew it?

tropic trail
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The good part of your soul goes to Shadowlands, bad part of your soul is held back by Frostmourne

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She got her good half back

upper edge
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So she’s kind of like her ranger general self?

tropic trail
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Yeah her ranger general self still sucks

young latch
upper edge
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Cause before she goes dark she warns the others

tropic trail
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She was an arrogant person who saw her troops as disposable

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In the short story she had for cata

upper edge
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I feel like I need a huge explanation tbh cause what I just witnessed was fucking insane

tropic trail
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It's been heavily telegraphed honestly

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The uther cinematic showed what frostmourne does to your soul, I knew that's what was going to happen to sylvanas

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get her good side back and sacrifice herself against the jailer

upper edge
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But she wasn’t stabbed by Anduin are you talking about arthas?

pulsar minnow
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The Jailer revealed that he was the original Arbiter, he takes up his true form and admits that he had no intentions of remaking the Shadowlands as he had promised to Sylvanas. Instead he only cared about himself. Sylvanas cuts ties, and in response the Jailer restores her full soul. Do note this does not wash her of the crimes she committed.

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She’s still not on board with the “Purpose” and whatnot

upper edge
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I know that last part but still what’s gonna happen to her now? And she just went unconscious not dead

young latch
upper edge
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So he spared her anyways?

pulsar minnow
young latch
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So he’s throwing her to the wolves so to speak

upper edge
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They’re not gonna do that though she’s literally trying to warn them and also fucking cliffhanger damn it blizzard

image0.jpg
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Do you think they heard what she said? Lol

pulsar minnow
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They know what she was going to say

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She was talking about the Sepulcher. The whole Shadowlands Scooby Doo Gang knows about it at this point even though it’s a “closely guarded secret”

upper edge
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But wait wasn’t that ball it?

pulsar minnow
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No?

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The sepulcher is a place

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That ball is the Arbiter’s essence

upper edge
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Oh fuck lmfao oops

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Also nice icon

pulsar minnow
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All good

upper edge
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He looks so badass ngl

pulsar minnow
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Sorry he just looks too badass yeah

upper edge
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I thought that was fake

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Tbh at first

pulsar minnow
upper edge
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So basically she’s gonna help them stop the big bad?

young latch
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I love this expansion xD

upper edge
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My prediction is that they will let Sylvanas help but after she it punished

pulsar minnow
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Most likely yeah. But that doesn’t exactly mean she’s our “friend.” Since she’s strictly opposed to the whole Eternal Ones and purpose

pulsar minnow
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And I love it

young latch
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I’m a big fan

dense plover
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I mean, we still don’t know exactly what’s in the sepulcher

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And we have no idea where it is

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Probably a new zone

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She is the enemy of our enemy

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She is a convenient ally. She is not innocent and will not be forgiven

pulsar minnow
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I kind of doubt that the Eternals even know where the Sepulcher is to be completely honest

dense plover
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And now that she can feel guilt fully, I don’t think she will want to be forgiven

young latch
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I hope we return to azeroth in the next one but I’m loving death dimension vacation

dense plover
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She has done too many unforgivable things

upper edge
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I mean she might change her mind since Zovaal was obviously using her

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And honestly at first I thought she was gonna sacrafice herself to free anduin

young latch
tulip sun
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Tbh I half expect her to die while helping us

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Because how do you rightfully punish someone who has half of their being being completely innocent?

young latch
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I can see her being a better jailor or something still.

upper edge
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I think she will be an anti hero

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In the end

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They’re not gonna get rid of her she’s a fan favorite

tulip sun
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Because like, that soul was separate. It is that range-general who died defending Quel'thalas.

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That ranger-general isn't at fault. The Banshee Queen is

young latch
pulsar minnow
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A lot of the soul splitting stuff needs to be further explained. From what I can tell it’s not a 50/50 split. Your conscious isn’t divided into two people. It’s more like a 75/25 split. It’s a key aspect of your character thats missing. For Uther he was missing memories and compassion/empathy.

upper edge
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I’m sorry but can someone explain why the fuck she went unconscious when she got her soul back? Cause obviously the jailer gave that as a courtesy for helping him out lol

terse patrol
young latch
pulsar minnow
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Well she did just take a major beating in the raid, all because of the Jailer juice she was hopped up on. After having her powers taken from her and a soul reunited, it was likely a lot to take in

upper edge
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Ah so overwhelming

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Got it

young latch
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Also probably remembering all of her old emotional range that’s flooding back to her

upper edge
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Yea so it’s like a flood gate

terse patrol
young latch
terse patrol
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lmao

upper edge
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Poor baine

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So she’s not a banshee? So she’s basically normal with no powers? Lol

dense plover
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Undead still

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And we don’t really know yet

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But yeah, not a banshee anymore

upper edge
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Ok good she’s still gonna help the gang out and kick some ass

austere gazelle
upper edge
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Also her eyes are blue now

dense plover
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It doesn’t tell us why the jailer wants it

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It doesn’t tell us where it is

upper edge
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But hey Sylvanas is technically redeemed

tulip sun
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Her firing an arrow at the jailer doesnt nullify her past actions.

dense plover
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^

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She isn’t broken anymore

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Doesn’t make her redeemed

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And it doesn’t mean that’s what they’re doing

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People thought they were gonna redeem Garrosh

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Dude fucking doubled down

tulip sun
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Garrosh straight up double downed xD

upper edge
tulip sun
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Character development? Plot progression? Not a redemption, lol

dense plover
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Sylvanas’ soul being restored

tropic trail
upper edge
dense plover
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No she isn’t?

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Where are you getting that?

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“Don’t let the bad guy escape!”?

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Like - that doesn’t make her a good guy

upper edge
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No like in the future lol

dense plover
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WE DONT KNOW

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You are stating an unknown as a fact

tropic trail
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I keep saying it but she's basically Azshara-tier by this point

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There's a worse bad guy out there

uncut vault
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Convenient ally is the best term to use as to her likely role going forward

dense plover
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^^^^^

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Enemy of my enemy

upper edge
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Lmfao bro chill yes ik it’s unknown I’m just speculating at this point

dense plover
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It didn’t come off like that “bro”

upper edge
tulip sun
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Well, maybe word it as a question or speculation rather than fact.

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A lot of people tend to do that. It is hard to tell over text.

upper edge
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Yea

unborn glacier
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She'll be Kerrigan'd c:

mossy meteor
strange falcon
frozen zealot
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I don't know if anybody noticed but when Sylvanas said those last words before falling unconscious she didn't have that undead reverb to her voice. Does that mean she's back to being an elf and not a banshee anymore? Or she's still undead just no longer a banshee?

slender quest
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I guess she's not a Banshee anymore.
Maybe just an Forsaken now?

feral abyss
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While Jailer is a pretty boring character to me

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God damn

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It should be illegal to look this cool

primal mirage
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Does anything happen to Oribos after the raid?

feral abyss
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I'm not sure, I wiped on EoJ and gave up

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I'm more interested in where Zovaal has gone

primal mirage
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The Sepulcher would be my guess

slender quest
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I hope when we kill him he drops his shoulders and his helmet

feral abyss
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I want his belt

blissful arch
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he does look amazing

young latch
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Which she needed since wrath imho

young latch
tropic trail
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OMFG

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SHE GOT HER SOUL BACKKK

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I wonder if Sylvanas is gonna keep that body she’s in, or if her body will heal

ancient jasper
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Guess you'll need to wait a while for that answer. lol

lapis grotto
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so now we just wait till next week for another lore hint from the covenant chapters?

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ZzZzZz

plain rivet
terse patrol
drifting copper
strange falcon
drifting copper
strange falcon
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no she's a writer

terse patrol
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I mean, hate to say it, but if you’re part of a major corporation it’s something to expect NO MATTER what you do. There’s insane people everywhere.

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Like, I don’t like the cinematic but

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idk why people are like this.

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It isn’t even a WoW only thing.

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People will threaten to kill you if you say Loki is bad.

strange falcon
terse patrol
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I’m just annoyed at the narrative that this is a WoW community exclusive thing.

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Not saying she’s saying that

strange falcon
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definitely not, the voice actor for jaina got death threats for playing the character Abby in Last of us 2

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and similar occurrences

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not just game related either

terse patrol
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It’s just silly. It takes away from actual criticisms.

slender quest
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so

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the next patch is obviously going to be the fight against the jailer, right ?
Does it make it shadowlands ends with 9.2?
Or could there be more after the fight with Zovaal?

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Fighting the first ones in 9.3? lol

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we have a situation very similiar to 8.2 and 8.3

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Azshara defeated -> Nzoth free -> next patch fight with Nzoth and xpac ends

crimson jasper
pulsar minnow
tropic trail
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It'd be cool if the next raid has Anduin as the final boss and the patch after is the Jailer patch

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And Invincible plays during Anduin's boss fight

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We didn't get enough of that song

pulsar minnow
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The fight could end with shalamayne broken and Arthas' soul is released

tropic trail
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Ye

slender quest
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I think there was an interview where an dev said Anduin won't be a raid boss

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Not sure tho

tropic trail
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That'd be so disappointing

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Imagine if he used some of the abilities Bolvar used when fighting Sylvanas

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Like the remorseless winter into stealth attacks

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I want that mechanic. Idgaf

pulsar minnow
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Honestly that'd be way cooler as a Jailer fight mechanic

strange falcon
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Tiridan went full edgy

pulsar minnow
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Yep

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should change my name to X_Tiridan_DarknessEdgeShadowDeath_X

tropic trail
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Yes

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This would be such a fun mechanic in game

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I want it so bad

tropic trail
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So, when is Sylvanas fighting Goku, anyway?

pulsar minnow
tropic trail
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The Jailer can beat Goku. He just makes him replace Anduin as his errand boy because Goku is so gullible

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"So you'll fight me if I get you all the McGuffin's?"

mossy meteor
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i'm curious how wowhead hasn't managed to find the post raid dialogue

slender quest
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is there one?

tropic trail
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Usually is

slender quest
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I know, maybe we have to wait for the LFR ?

tropic trail
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Didn't get a chance to play Sanctum. I should really make that a priority. Tomorrow.

terse patrol
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“The vassal of life disguises treachery. Beware the eyes of green.”

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Bolvar’s eyes were green before he was burned, and is kept alive by the dragonfire of life.

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@dense plover

tropic trail
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Stretch

azure estuary
terse patrol
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I mean, at this point, nobody else fits the bill, unless they introduce a new character.

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(Or retcon someone’s eye color.)

slender quest
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I don't see how Bolvar fits at all

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blizzard is simple. They show you the plot before. They donn't hide it behind something complex like: "he had green eyes when he was alive"

terse patrol
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This is true, the plot has to be blatant and braindead. thinking

tropic trail
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Everyone's a critic khadgarface

terse patrol
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So yeah, my guess is we meet the Life pantheon and wha’dya know, the one with green eyes will be an asshole.

tropic trail
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Nah, it's just gonna be dreadlord shenanigans

terse patrol
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Thinking on it, that would be interesting. What if a member of the Life pantheon betrayed the others to side with the Light to preserve life?

tropic trail
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We already have dreadlord shenanigans in Korthia and Torghast

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Life =/= Light

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Two different forces

tacit ember
terse patrol
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Yes. But again. If Sargeras can join Chaos, a member of Life can join Light.

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@tropic trail

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(Or whatever other faction.)

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Who the hell knows, I’m speculating on an Ilgynoth prophecy that might not even happen.

tulip sun
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The rest of the prophecy fits doesn't it

tacit ember
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Who is Zovaal and why does he have sibling issues

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Zovaal malding because siblings don't give him enough attention?

tropic trail
# tacit ember Who is Zovaal and why does he have sibling issues

At some point he did some great crime or treachery and they locked him away in the Maw, where he bided his time to turn the Domination magic used against him into his own weapon while building up his forces and powerbase while gathering agents to manipulate events throughout the cosmos in his favor. That's basically what we know so far

tropic trail
terse patrol
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I mean, Order is labeled as a sphere like Life and Death.

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If both Life and Death have pantheons, and Order has a pantheon.

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One might assume Chaos does too.

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Maybe even Light.

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Presumably the Void Lords are a pantheon.

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@tropic trail

pulsar minnow
terse patrol
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Ysera has blue eyes.

pulsar minnow
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Eyes of green doesn't mean the eyes are exactly green. It can also be referring to the eyes of one who is green

terse patrol
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It could also mean green with envy.

pulsar minnow
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i think that's looking too deep

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it might also be Tyrande. Her hair is blueish green so she could be seen as the "green one" or whatever

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I could also say it's referring to the eyes of the green. Green as in life and wilderness. So it could likely be Elune as well. There's thousands of ways to interpret this. I just doubt its Bolvar since his eyes have never really been something of importance beyond the initial confusion over his eye color in the SL cinematic

tropic trail
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Overthinking. More likely just gonna be dreadlord shenanigans

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Also don't forget that the Void sees all potential paths as truth, so an Old God prophecy can be filled with just as many inaccuracies and events that won't come to pass as they will actual predictions

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Listen to the Void but don't believe every whisper

upper edge
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you know everytime i watch the raid cinematic i feel like im watching a TV show lol

slender quest
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expect a lot of Sylvanas in 9.,2 ❤️

tropic trail
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Lmao yeah, a lot of people keep forgetting there's still more expansion to go

upper edge
obtuse vine
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Glad that Sylvanas isn’t dead yet then, but still confused why they marked her as a corpse after the fight

image0.png
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Sorry for the bad quality

upper edge
obtuse vine
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True lol, still a weird choice, expected them to at least give her a special “death animation” akin to Azsharas one

tulip sun
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Just have her lay down lol

upper edge
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oh fuck it says unconscious on her name plate

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lmfao

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and does anyone notice that her name doesnt have "banshee queen" anymore

mossy meteor
slender quest
mossy meteor
slender quest
pulsar minnow
mossy meteor
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according to nobbel, no

slender quest
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follow up quest probably next week ?

tropic trail
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I mean we've still got more campaign questing to do next week

unborn glacier
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Also blizz never let us see the last campaign chapter on ptr

dense plover
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^

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But also that quest there clearly lays out the relationship with sylvanas going into 9.2 - ally of convenience

tropic trail
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Well, prisoner

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"Our only victory--if you can call it that--is that we have Sylvanas in custody."

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She's not so much an ally as a detained prisoner asset

slender quest
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that's what you think for now. I'm sure she won't stay a prisoner

tropic trail
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No, that's what's stated for now. We don't know what's next because it hasn't happened yet

slender quest
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that's what I tried to say. And that I don't believe she stays longer than this patch as a prisoner

dense plover
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Considering we have no story with her post raid, it’s going to last into next patch at least

tropic trail
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I mean, we're not even really done with the current patch

tropic trail
strange falcon
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"When he hits that spot"

tropic trail
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Nay

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"When he says he will set everyone free"

undone onyx
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Is Garrosh dead or he teleported?

slender quest
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he's dead dead

undone onyx
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He was the only good thing about the raid and lore of Shadowlands tbh sadge they had to kill him

sonic flame
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guys whaat happens to sylvanas

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after the video finishes?

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cause i presume its at the end of the encounter so your character is right there

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do you get to see what the other characters do of her

mossy meteor
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she just lays there

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unconscious

tropic trail
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She's currently in custody

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More 9.1 plot next week

tranquil steeple
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she's got house arrest, she's not allowed out to play right now

slender quest
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haha

pastel berry
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Hello, am I allowed to talk about the sylvanas fate cinematic here? I have some quiestions I'm confused

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obviously my questions will be spoilers

tropic trail
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Well that's why this is the spoilers channel

pastel berry
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Cool

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So how did the Jailer & Anduin get into Oribos all of a sudden?

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I feel like I missed a huge part of the story

tropic trail
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Probably through the power of all of the other sigils he's been collecting, as well as taking advantage of all of his resources he's been building all of this time. Oh, and maybe taking advantage of the big door we opened so we could bring our covenant forces into the Maw

pastel berry
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But when did he get the other sigils? i only saw he got the winter queen's sigil

tropic trail
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Denathrius likely just gave him his since he's allied with him. He used Anduin to take the Archon's during the first cinematic of 9.1. He stole the Winter Queen's during the Battle of Ardenweald, and then he got the Primis's sigil during the 9.1 campaign questing that came out yesterday and ends with you unlocking flying

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So yeah, I'd definitely say you're missing something

pastel berry
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I need renown 44?

tropic trail
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In Korthia, and yes it starts at renown 44

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At the end of that questline you get renown 45 and flying

pastel berry
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Aah I see

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Thanks!

tropic trail
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👍

pastel berry
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Confusing 😄

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You got a good place to follow this stuff so you do or watch everythhing in order?

tropic trail
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I just play the content and pay attention to the content release schedule, as well as keeping an eye on #latest-news

pastel berry
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okay cool

tropic trail
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Not really confusing if you're paying attention and playing the content

pastel berry
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thanks

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aight thx

tropic trail
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👍

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Glhf

terse patrol
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World of Cliffhangers.

faint nova
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actually wait a minute

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would mine be considered inappropriate? Not 100 % sure since I cropped it

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eh, better safe then sorry

upper edge
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Jailer: Oh no!
Anyway

tulip sun
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Tbh

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The last part of the new campaign probably will have revelations

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Since we were not allowed to test it

terse patrol
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Can’t believe we gotta wait almost two months now to get the next part of the plot.

tulip sun
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We get new story each week 🤷‍♂️

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You know damn well if they didn't time gate it everyone would have it done within a week if not days and it'd be worse complaining

tropic trail
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Idk how you can't believe it when we had to wait a week for each covenant campaign chapter 🤷

strange falcon
tropic trail
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tbh, it breaks up the content to be very manageable for alts as well

jade basalt
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Honestly I quite prefer it this way

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It'd be overwhelming if the whole entire questline was to be done in one go

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This depends entirely on you as a person though, 15 years ago when Vanilla came out and I raided until 5am every night, I probably would've preferred doing the whole thing at once

uncut vault
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theyre also starting to take the time to give little reasons as to why theyre delayed, and not just artificially timegated irl

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like, it took a week to start doing the primus stuff because we needed a steady hold on Korthia, next weeks chapter starts because a dreadlord disguises as vashj and vashj comes to take the reigns

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bit more back to that style of story progression MoP had with landfall and isle of thunder

mossy meteor
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next week is draka x thrall

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not dreadlords

uncut vault
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same concept 😛

mossy meteor
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yes but i'm being pedantic for no reason Xd

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wall of text:

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Bolvar: The Jailer is gone. Wherever that gateway led, it's been sealed behind him.
Thrall: We thought the Jailer was coming to slay the Arbiter. But he... absorbed her essence.
Bolvar: As if her power--and the sigil--were his all along.
Jaina: Jailer be damned! He's got Anduin. No matter where he's gone, we will find him!
Thrall: Maybe she knows.
Jaina: Yes. Sylvanas said something before she collapsed, but I couldn't make it out.
Bolvar: My knights will hold her captive here in Oribos. When she awakens, we can begin the interrogation.
Bolvar: For now, we should return to Korthia. Let us hope the Primus can explain the Jailer's plan... and tell us what must be done to stop him.

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post raid dialogue

uncut vault
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actually?

mossy meteor
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yeah, actual

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clipped it from max's stream when they were doing normal split runs

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and i assume the actual quest was bugged

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and didn't play any dialogue

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otherwise that's kinda lame

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you turn in the quest to bolvar in korthia and nothing happens

tulip sun
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I wish we saw Baine comment

uncut vault
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that requires them remembering him

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but tbh Im not sure he really needs to be in this plot at all

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what is he gonna say that Thrall cant?

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he has pretty much no purpose this xpac, he's seen his dad multiple times before, he doesnt have any special powers or purpose for the Jailer, the role of "person scorned by Sylvanas' actions in BfA" is already plenty filled

dense plover
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^this

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they kidnapped him for some reason

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probably so people wouldnt say "oh look green jesus"

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but also it might be for whatever the next expac is

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or maybe to connect with anduin since baine and anduin are good friends

tropic trail
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I think it's mostly the Anduin connection, but we can't forget that he's not only a major leader of the Horde but also generally regarded as the Horde's moral compass. That makes him a priority target for the psychological warfare method of general demoralization--not to mention the fact that he took a direct action against her during wartime and evaded Sylvanas's judgement of execution after a public trial, making him a target of spiteful and targeted ire

tulip sun
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I seem to recall an interview mentioning tauren revelations but I c a never find it.

terse patrol
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@uncut vault I wish they used Shadowlands as a chance to give Baine a power up.

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Like, make him a Spiritwalker or something.

uncut vault
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would have been nice, but it isnt the first time theyve cheaped him out of an obvious powerup

terse patrol
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Like, gaining the spiritual power of his ancestors. Like an avatar of the Tauren.

uncut vault
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The Shattering and As Our Fathers Before Us set him up to become a Sunwalker, but that got dropped and he decided to give back Fearbreaker in shame

terse patrol
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I just don’t get it.

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Writing his power up should be easy.

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The progression here is obvious.

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It makes me wonder WHY Baine even exists.

tulip sun
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They have to have something with him planned

indigo vigil
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You imply that Blizzard writes anything in advance

austere gazelle
tulip sun
tropic trail
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It's like y'all ignoring everything I typed lol

indigo vigil
unborn glacier
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Anshe is literally the Sun to the Tauren

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It's literally how they receive their Light abilities to be Priests and Paladins

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XDDDDDD

tropic trail
austere gazelle
# tulip sun I'm sorry but that makes no sense v.v

Well, it might, and might not. The Sun god in several Mythos is stated has receiving a wound and ending up as ruling the underworld, sorry for seeing a direct parallel, its still a theory anyway, but backed up by real world lore and symbolism, time will tell, it might not be, or it might 🤷

austere gazelle
# unborn glacier It's literally how they receive their Light abilities to be Priests and Paladins

That a symbolism. An'she is maybe not the one giving them this power. Is there a Naaru or an Eternal behind every human dwarf or Paladin? If you believe in the light, being An'she, or the Light, or a Naaru, you can end up using the light. I don't think An'she is literraly giving light power to Tauren, it's more like you can, if you believe and have faith in the light, wield its power. Forsaken are a good example

unborn glacier
#

Anshe is the Light to the Tauren. This is just facts man.

tropic trail
#

Yeah this is some serious stretching

austere gazelle
tropic trail
#

Yeah but it's not gonna be the Jailer khadgarface

austere gazelle
#

It's a supposition, not saying it's certain 🙂 but there are actually some valid point behind this, despite what you think

#

He’s a “Dark Sun” who’s symbolism has long been associated with Death. In Alchemy and Occult mythology there are two suns, A golden one that gives Life and a Dark one that takes life away. There’s Egyptian myth of Shu and Tefunt, which matches the story of An’she and Mu’sha. Shu gets bitten by chaos and goes to rule the Underworld as the God of the dead. The Dark Sun was worshipped as a literal black hole in the center of creation. In a Thousand Years of War, Locus Walker shows Alleria that this is the reality of the Universe in World of Warcraft, so this isn’t just speculation on my part.

pulsar minnow
#

I mean the Shadowlands doesn't have a sun so it's not that odd

austere gazelle
#

True. it may be nothing indeed

pulsar minnow
#

Is our only lead on this the notion that there is a dark void within An'she?

austere gazelle
#

There are hints, no " leads " despite the wound Anshe received and some Mythos that mirror Anshe and Musha, that describe the sun god becoming the ruler of the underworld after receiving this wound. At the same time, there is the proeminence of Elune becoming more and more important.
And also the sense that Zovaal is, despite his coldness, heating the air around him like he is some sort of Black Hole.

pulsar minnow
#

So our "hints" are dependent on an external mythology.

unborn glacier
pulsar minnow
#

^

austere gazelle
unborn glacier
#

LMAO

#

Yes it is

coarse quail
#

Too hard to follow messages here,lol,i mean,in every chat.

tropic trail
tropic trail
austere gazelle
# unborn glacier Yes it is

No, I'm not denying that Anshe is not the Light. I'm saying he may have been a being of Light at one point. Never denied it

unborn glacier
#

V:

coarse quail
pulsar minnow
#

Yeah but the Jailer is death and always has been death

unborn glacier
#

^^^

#

Anshe is the name the Tauren give the Light. Anshe is not its own entity like Elune.

pulsar minnow
#

I mean, An'she might be real, though not by the same name. But I doubt the deity the Tauren pray to is Zovaal.

austere gazelle
unborn glacier
pulsar minnow
#

hey no need to insult

unborn glacier
#

It's a folklore and fairytale book. Not everything in there is Canon.

tropic trail
# austere gazelle No, I'm not denying that Anshe is not the Light. I'm saying he may have been a ...

He would have had to be involved with the Light during the time when the Tauren would have/are worshipping An'she. Your timelines don't line up--especially considering there are already entire realms of Light entities to explore first before dealing with the powers of the Pantheon of Death. That, and if the Jailer was a wielder or practitioner of the Light then he wouldn't have gone through so much effort to acquire Anduin. Anduin had something he never had access to--the powers of the Light

austere gazelle
#

Excuse me?
We have a new book that describes EarthMother, Anshe and Musha, and only Musha is a real deal and the other are just ' idealized ' cocncept?

#

They could and they could not be " real " entities

unborn glacier
pulsar minnow
#

you called em crazy just dont do that

unborn glacier
#

...

tropic trail
#

...

#

Bruh

unborn glacier
#

^

austere gazelle
# pulsar minnow you called em crazy just dont do that

Thank you, I'm trying to bring valid point and debate around something, I'm not entirely sold either, but it's not because you disagree with me that you have to look down at me and laughing 🙂, I just have the impression that I have angry little kid in front

tropic trail
#

Baifeng didn't call him crazy--she said that his abstract theory is crazy because it's basically cookoo for cocoa puffs

unborn glacier
#

^^^^^^

tropic trail
#

It's unfounded, illegitimate, unlikely, and doesn't follow already established lore and canon

#

There's a fine line between theorycrafting and wild speculation

#

(someone was talking to me lol)

pulsar minnow
unborn glacier
tropic trail
austere gazelle
pulsar minnow
#

To be honest I don't think you theory holds water but I don't think that's an excuse to..."doggopile" you

tropic trail
unborn glacier
pulsar minnow
#

It's more likely that An'she is just a separate entity

#

The Jailer is his own entity

unborn glacier
#

I'm done
Tiri is always shit disturbing and trying to stir the pot.

austere gazelle
#

I'm not sold entirely on this but trying to debate around it, I can be wrong, I accept that, but there is a level of conversation you can't have here

unborn glacier
#

I'm out

pulsar minnow
tropic trail
unborn glacier
tropic trail
#

Like, Baifeng and I disagree and argue all the time but we know we're not shitflinging at each other

austere gazelle
#

So, saying that Anshe can be a fallen sun god, that Anshe received a wound in his chest and Zovaal also as a " hole ", emanate heat and seem to radiate shadow instead of light ( according to the Folkore book ) is not basing my assumptions on established lore?

#

I can be wrong, but don't reject everything I say because you do not agree with it

tropic trail
tropic trail
austere gazelle
#

The tauren don't channel light from anyone. They drew light from faith. Be it faith in an'she, faith in a Naaru or whatever

pulsar minnow
#

I mean there's a lot we still don't know about the Jailer since we have yet to see his old realm, and his sigil is golden. But I just can't see him being the light entity tauren pray to, and it also means the Jailer has been working against himself for a while

#

The Tauren channel from anshe

austere gazelle
#

What entity do the forsaken channel the light from ?

pulsar minnow
#

The Holy Light, faith, whatever. Light is light regardless of source. Tauren specifically channel from An'she.

austere gazelle
#

I'm not disagreeing, but saying that An'she is what give them the faith to channel the light

balmy gate
#

Forsaken were once humans serving the light. They continue to serve the light even in undeath.

austere gazelle
#

Yes, the Light as an entity, their faith make them use the Light. Light, An'she, Naaru, whatever, there are symbols that give faith to being and that faith may allow them to channel the light

tropic trail
#

The Jailer being An'she does not align with any established lore or canon

austere gazelle
#

it's a theory, and lore can evolve, there are suspicions and no valid implication yet

tropic trail
#

It's an unfounded theory

balmy gate
#

Suddenly Baine would have more story, instead of sitting in Oribos looking like he's too haunted from the Maw to ever recover.

#

😄

tropic trail
pulsar minnow
#

I think the more likely case is that An'she's dark sun and selfishness reflects more of the light than anything else. As evidenced by Xe'ra's forced conversion and the light's rejection of everything not Light.

tropic trail
#

I already went over this. Baine's involvement is basically already established

pulsar minnow
#

Yeah but regardless baine isn't really doing anything. regardless if he was a target or not for whatever reason

tropic trail
#

Every character doesn't need to be in the spotlight 25/8

austere gazelle
#

Blizzard has a tendency to pick some character at the beginning of an expack and make them go through in the spotlight, dropping some in the middle of it though

tropic trail
#

His current level of involvement is already explained and acceptable for the pace of the current story

austere gazelle
#

That Baine was used only the be thrown as trash by the Jailer is.. odd

tropic trail
#

Plus we're not even done with the story for the second content patch of the expansion 🙄

austere gazelle
#

But you're probably right, it's like Jaina at the beginning of Legion, that suddenly disappeared for the rest of the xpack

tropic trail
#

Wait, you have me blocked but you're reading my posts anyway? Lmao get real, Doggo

austere gazelle
austere gazelle
tropic trail
#

As far as the pace of the story he's still fresh from torture we don't know the extent of, while staying within the proximity of other major leaders. For all we know he's still focusing on planning. We don't see this much bitching over Taelia and Calia in Oribos, and Baine already has more current story involvement in the current story than either

#

Lmao get over yourself, I've never DM'd you

pulsar minnow
#

Taelia not doing anything this expansion is also a pretty big disappointment. Though, again, she was more of a last-minute character addition to BFA

tropic trail
#

I disagreed with you so you blocked me and yet you're so full of yourself you're still going through the extra effort to read my messages and reply to them

pulsar minnow
#

Can we stop being so hostile towards one another please. It's literally a bald skrillex reject who might be the sun. That's our topic of conversation

tropic trail
#

I wasn't aware that describing active occurring behavior was an act of aggression

pulsar minnow
#

They just want to share their theory. No problem with that.

tropic trail
#

That's not my current complaint but w/e. Keep victim soapboxing. I'm audi

pulsar minnow
#

yeah I can't be bothered to spell this out. I would like to keep talking to doggo about their theories though

pulsar minnow
austere gazelle
# tropic trail I disagreed with you so you blocked me and yet you're so full of yourself you're...

That will be my final answer to you, I actually blocked you a few month ago because you were being toxic and aggressive toward people in your answers, I did not choose to block you now because you disagree with me. You're being consistent in your behavior though so I see no reason to unblock you. I just read your message and your answer to see if you would bring something interesting but you seem to take everything personnaly so I'm dropping this conversation with you. Peace 🙂

austere gazelle
pulsar minnow
#

He got that in 8.2 with the Tauren Heritage quest, but it's a bit confusing as to whether that was the REAL Cairne or an echo

austere gazelle
#

Well seeing how they handled Uther's spirit... I don't think they know themselves

tropic trail
tropic trail
#

Just finished the raid and

#

WHAT STUPID FUCKING ENDING BAJHAAJAJAJAJJAAJJAHAHAHA

#

LITREALLY ANSWERED NOTHING

#

ALREADY KNEW SYLVANAS WOULD BETRAY THE JAILER

#

Second week of the second content patch. More story still coming

slender quest
#

As patty mattson said, there is more to come 🙂

#

also those 2 pictures she chose are nice hints

tropic trail
#

They said stuff was gonna be answered at the end of the raid

#

It only led to more questions

slender quest
#

they said a lot in the past right ?

#

🤷‍♀️

hazy kettle
#

@slender quest While I fully agree with Patty Mattson's post, honest to god very true, that.. is a bit of a weak deflect. "Yeah, but they've said a lot of things in the past, haven't they?" It doesn't mean we should let that slide. <w<

#

Aside from that, love Anduin's look in the first pic. '° '

slender quest
#

I mean... sure it's never ok when someone makes promises and doesn't keep them. But what should we do now?

#

all we can do is give some criticism

hazy kettle
#

That we sure can. 😮 We can rage at them on Twitter. coffee

#

(This is a joke, please don't take this serious. Do not harass people on Twitter, give constructive criticism, if any.)

slender quest
#

dude I was like "he didn't just said this...."

#

Then I saw it was a joke

hazy kettle
#

Then I did my job well. 😄

slender ember
#

Sylvanas who stood by and allowed the Jailor to twist and enslave Anduin

Jailer: Now, everyone will serve!

Sylvanas: ExCuSe mE?! NOT I

tropic trail
#

I mean she thought it was an ends justify the means situation but didn't understand what the ends were

#

She was acting primarily out of blind rage and desperation

upper pasture
#

or maybe the jailer and her need her with us for some unseen reason

#

not that i believe that but you never know

tropic trail
#

In a warped kind of way, he did kinda reward her for her service, even if he did leave her in the custody of people he knows want her dead or held accountable for her crimes

#

She's basically just a discarded tool and--like all great supervillains--is at the stage in his plans where he doesn't believe anything can stop him in his hubris

tulip sun
cunning fossil
#

Please can we get some imprisonment

unborn glacier
#

Nah. I read on twitter there is a new interview coming out soon where it sounds pretty clearly like they are going down a redemption route, with Arthas being the crux of it. Supposedly, with his help we learn we were wrong to kill him and as such it is too late for him, but it is not too late to offer a chance at change to Sylvanas; the one he damned to the path she has walked in all of her Undeath.

cunning fossil
#

sigh

dense plover
young latch
cunning fossil
#

She kinda did. She's not even being warped by anything right now

#

She made these deals and did all these things from Legion to BFA on her own volition

dense plover
#

uh

#

i mean

#

clearly theyre saying she only had half of her soul

#

whether that means she is responsible for what she did or not is different

cunning fossil
#

The way I see it is that she is 100% responsible. Because that is thge SYlvanas we've known up till now. WQe didn't know about the Soul Split thing until the recent book.

#

Only had half her soul but she wasn't swayed.

pulsar minnow
uncut vault
#

Uther isnt responsible for what's done in bastion though

#

the end of the story is them understanding he was both misguided by devos/the jailer, and wasn't his full self

#

he's a fully fledged kyrian amongst the other forsworn by the end

pulsar minnow
#

Yet he still accepts the Archon's punishment

#

As Sylvanas should too

uncut vault
#

She likely will, just dont expect it to be more severe than what Uther got 😛

pulsar minnow
uncut vault
#

Should it? The xpacs core theme is kinda about how cycles of vengeance are pointless

#

Sylvanas isn't going to be entirely the same person she was before, and even then, she chose (albeit far, far too late) to step back from the Jailer

pulsar minnow
#

Yes it should be more severe. She murdered the Night Elves at teldrassil.

#

You dont just wave that off

uncut vault
#

waving it off and choosing not to issuing punitive judgment arent the same thing

#

what does just making her suffer accomplish? Especially when at this point, she's going to be willing to help us stop him

pulsar minnow
uncut vault
#

I mean I doubt she's going to be doing that for a long while anyways lol

pulsar minnow
#

and she shouldn't touch azeroth again. she's likely going to be dead by the end of the expansion anyways

#

they've already set up her replacement

unborn glacier
pulsar minnow
cunning fossil
#

a Triumvirate sounds...ok.
But I still feel like it shouldn't be waved of and should 1000% either be dealt with now, or the echoes of it should carry on for the rest of her undeath. (likely less severe as trime goes on, but it is a BIG blotch in her nam)

#

Oh yeah

#

The Horde is Nothing

#

It's gonna be hard to come back from that

pulsar minnow
# cunning fossil a Triumvirate sounds...ok. But I still feel like it shouldn't be waved of and s...

Well she’s in custody right now. We’re just waiting for her to wake up. I doubt she’s just going to go “oh yeah my soul wasn’t really all there so you can kinda just forget about all the crazy stuff I did I’m such a Gemini :P” Thrall is still mad over the loss of Saurfang and Auntie Jaina is probably gonna go all ‘Karen’ on Sylvanas for getting Anduin stuck with the god of death

uncut vault
pulsar minnow
#

Yeah but Thrall is a different story

unborn glacier
#

She should 100% be redeemed

pulsar minnow
cunning fossil
#

Doesn't work in the court

#

-<

unborn glacier
#

This isn't real Life

#

We can't treat it like real life

pulsar minnow
cunning fossil
terse patrol
#

What if Kael’thas returned to Azeroth? thinking

cunning fossil
dense plover
#

^^^^

slender quest
#

@pulsar minnow You do understand that the real Sylvanas never did any of those crimes? They took the good part away and all what was left was rage and madness, basically.
The pure soul, the soul who never did ever anything bad in her life and died a hero protecting her people is now back.
How do you suppose to judge Sylvanas now for her crimes?
Imagine you are a good soul, never did anything wrong, you got killed, caputred, probably tortured until shadowlands. Now you're back to your body/your other part of you and you have to suffer again?
You have to face judgement for things you didn't do

#

That's cruel as fuck

#

I think Sylvanas punishment will be she herself

#

Imagine how she will feel when she wakes up

cunning fossil
#

I mean. Yes remorse is probably gonna be a thing.

But that doesn't cover for the fact that she, the one we've known forever, is basically an accomplice in throwing the universe out of balance.

#

I feel like it won't be something wild or anything. Probably a slap on the wrist and the never ending guilt, knowing that she nearly became what Arthas did.

#

By a RAZOR THIN margin

hazy kettle
#

@slender quest I have a couple of things to say in regards to that.

First I'd like to address the point that we're judging the supposed 'hero', Sylvannas, the loyal ranger general of Silvermoon. Her actions were, no doubt, heroic and she did everything in her power to save her people - but at the same time, she also had a bit of a psychopathic streak, thinking of the soldiers serving under her as 'nothing more but arrows in my quiver'.

IMHO this side of her changed in undeath, quite visibly when she thought about the Forsaken and their future in her short story (during which she threw herself of ICC and onto the saronite spikes.) This became even more apparent when she mourned the Val'kyr that had died for her during the Silverpine Forrest storyline. Whether you wanna consider her behaviour in Sanctum of Domination a facade, she does act surprisingly cold and dismissive of their deaths, despite showing surprise at Nathanos death (DARE I SAY SHE WAS TAKEN ABACK! O: )

What I'm trying to say with that is that although the other part of her soul was the supposed 'compassionate' part, she has shown the same traits in undeath, even having grown past her character flaw established in her short. On top of this, she was also quite capable of disregarding the lives of her people for her own goals, if you wanna be a bit cynical (aka. "Arrows in my Quiver").

Now, secondly (and lastly), there's the issue with her being 'whole' again / her compassionate, 'innocent' side being back.

#

Baifeng put it quite nicely, earlier. "This isn't real life." The closest equivalent we have to a real life comparison would probably someone being with a broken psyche, parts of their personality (one side of them, so to say) 'locked away' in their subconscious, while a different part of them is on the conscious end. Whether or not this innocent part has been away and can or can't remember what their other half did, the murder of hundreds, nay, thousands of innocent still happened.

I sympathise with Sylvanas and I do enjoy the story, greatly (or, at the very least, the direction it is taking). But while I understand your point, no matter of "I have to live with my own terrible deeds" will erase the countless lives snuffed out by her actions. Ironically, Blizzard's dialogue for King Terenas in 3.3.2 puts it best: "Thousands of souls (...) cry out for revenge!"

strange falcon
#

wall of text pog

hazy kettle
#

Ultimately, since we're in the Shadowlands anyway, it's on them - if anyone - to judge the Banshee Queen / the Ranger General.

#

Dw, will abreviate. ❤️

cunning fossil
#

I like indepth tuff

hazy kettle
#

TL;DR: While I understand your point (and I fully sympathise with it), her actions (much like those of someone in real life, who has mental issues on the extreme side) can't simply be pardoned like that.

cunning fossil
#

Big brain.

hazy kettle
#

For those who prefer not to read a wall of text, the choice of mental illness is in regards to a split personality - arguably the closest thing to having a part of yourself locked away, unaware of the crimes you committed. (At least in my own opinion. <w<)

cunning fossil
#

Being sorry about it and "not being yourself/not being in a good place" doesn't excuse you of horrible deed

#

not an argument against you, just me agreeing with you via words

hazy kettle
#

'xactly. I don't mind a redemption arc for Sylvanas, but if they go down that road (which I do not advice them to) I feel like the player base will only (in part) accept it, if Sylvanas ends up with some sort of ultimate punishment.

#

I think it is cheese, but something akin to becoming the next Jailor of the Damned.

#

The biggest "WHAT THE FRICK" would, undoubtedly, be a "Surprise, I faked it, I'm still on his side!" after she 'helps' us. But there's currently about 0% chance after the current developments.

cunning fossil
#

If that happens, that'll be a twist I didn't expect.
Not necessarily happy bout it though, as that'd mean. We might lose xP

#

Also fully agree with the player base appeasement thing. She can't get off easy. (Yes I'm in that camp Sue me)

hazy kettle
#

I am also that camp, despite semi-staning for her.

#

The thing I'd like to see happen the most - the Jailer.. actually fucking wins.

#

Straight up. He wins this expansion.

#

Gul'dan 2.0, but his plot actually works and not just semi-works.

#

That would be the biggest beep you to all the criticism about "In the end we always win, it's a borefest"

uncut vault
#

I feel like the issue there is that it needs to be villain with less stakes

#

you could have someone like Garrosh win his xpac, theoretically, and still be fine because that spawns more story for us to push back in the next xpac

#

you cant really do that with "tear down the entire universe and enslave it to my will forever" haha

#

its one of the criticisms a lot of people have of late, it's hard to get invested in the antagonists because they have plans that we simply know will fail, because the game has to continue

hazy kettle
#

True, really true. I mean, FF14 (which I'm currently playing, friggin' sue me) had a horrific vanilla game. So.. they scrapped it.

uncut vault
#

the Legion only really worked because of its nostalgic value and basis in the franchise, the Jailer has no such basis

hazy kettle
#

In their current story, they're actually pushing back against the massive invasive force that are the Garleans. Have someone win and then give us a story about how we're the underdog, pushing back.

#

Just.. maybe not the Jailer. '° '

slender quest
#

She didn't saw her people as arrows in her quiver. Thats waht she did in undeath, when her soul was apart/incomnplete

hazy kettle
#

During the short story detailing her fight against Arthas (while alive), she referred to her people as "Arrows in her Quiver". When she threw herself of ICC, she contemplated about the continued existence of the Forsaken under Garrosh, a vision she cared little about at first, but when given the choice (because they are outcasts, like herself at that point) she returned to lead them into a better future (for them).

slender quest
#

Yes, that's where her soul was apart

#

...

#

Sylvanas lost her soul when Arthas killed her

hazy kettle
#

Hang on a second.

#

She said so during his assault on Silvermoon, before she perished and was resurrected.

slender quest
#

emmm this is what she thinks to herself as an undead

#

this is from the short storyx right

#

the one after wotlk

hazy kettle
#

Yes.

slender quest
#

so as I said....

#

There is nothing that statesd she saw her people in life as "arrows in her quiver"

hazy kettle
#

Alright, so if I got this right, your argument is that Sylvanas only had this particular way of thinking of them well after she died, because her soul had already split

#

So that during this vision, of her past, she thought of them as Arrows in their Quiver, again, because she was already dead.

#

I'm not trying to ridicule this, if that's your honest opinion I might even agree (if I understand it correctly).

slender quest
#

sorry I'm still confused on this

hazy kettle
#

What I mean is, your opinion - correct me if I'm wrong - is that in life, she didn't think like that. It is only in Undeath, after her soul had been split, that she thought back (during this vision) of these last moments

slender quest
#

It does seem that her "vision" or old memory states that even back then she saw somne people as arrows

hazy kettle
#

and because only that part of her was left, she thought back of them like that

slender quest
#

which is okay I guess. She was a tactiucian

hazy kettle
#

Yes, that's my point. 😮

#

My point exactly.

slender quest
#

yeah sorry I was confused 😄

hazy kettle
#

I'm not saying she was an abhorrent person.

#

Nah, dude, it's tots fine. ❤️ We got things sorted out, this gud.

slender quest
#

But where are you trying to go with this again?

hazy kettle
#

I mean, if your point was what I just tried to explain - I agree.

slender quest
#

I mean this doesn't make her good soul anyway bad or something

hazy kettle
#

(To finish that thought real quick) It may very well be that she misremembered (so to say) seeing them as "Arrows in her Quiver", because only her dark side was left.

#

All I was trying to point out is that, in life - if this is not how it turned out to be - she did have the potential to be somewhat cool, calculating.

slender quest
#

Possible. But to be honest, this story was also written before shadowlands. Probably before some retcons

hazy kettle
#

You need that levelheadedness as a tactician, honest to god - you do.

#

Fully agree, entirely possible. Quite likely, actually.

#

My entire point earlier was that, even considering this may very well be an entirely new Sylvanas (so to say), it just.. unfortunately, it simply doesn't alleviate the pain and suffering her other half had caused.

slender quest
#

oh sure it doesn't

hazy kettle
#

That was my reason for comparing it to someone with a split personality (although that topic in itself is such a clusterfuck to even talk about, because it's so very difficult).

slender quest
#

but at the same time, it's difficult to judge her now

hazy kettle
#

Oh, definitely.

slender quest
#

she's basically a different person yet. Or at least we have to see what she is now at all

hazy kettle
#

We're dealing with a person that, all the likely, has no idea what this other half of her had done since her resurrection.

#

(If Blizzard decides to go down this route.)

#

The issue I see with this is that the majority of the player base will feel this is an easy cop-out, ala "It was all a dream" (not a perfect allegory) or, more fittingly "She was mind controlled!"

#

Y'know, it kinda deters from what she's done, because "This is not the one that actually did it!"

#

So yeah, it's wait and see on how Blizzard will deal with this and how well the community will put up with it. shrug

slender quest
#

Absolutely. Because it is a easy cop-out

hazy kettle
#

All I know is that, currently, after several years of WoW, I just can't push myself to do it no more (for the moment), so I'm seeking refugee in FF14. But I still enjoy the story telling, a lot.

slender quest
#

not just now with sylvanas, this is everywhere an "easy cop-out" I mean in every story

#

mind controll or losing a part of a soul

hazy kettle
#

Yes, exactly. :x

slender quest
#

However, since I'm all "Sylvy redemption" team I think this kind of redemption is the best one

hazy kettle
#

Prolly, yeah.

slender quest
#

worst case redemption would be if Sylvanas would've been justified

hazy kettle
#

.. That would be friggin' ugly to look at. ._.

slender quest
#

like, she did all of this for the greater good and shes forgiven

#

So... I guess many people just don't like the idea of having Sylvanas redeemed. Which is totally fair

hazy kettle
#

I mean, my honest opinion? Yes, you can say there's glaring plot holes in SL, like several characters joining him, despite the fact that - historically - he's responsible for all their suffering.

#

But with Sylvanas? Several reasons she joined him / helped him, likely not because she fully wanted to, either. Tots fine with that explanation.

#

What I just.. really don't want to see is a "Zoval was right."

slender quest
#

Oh I doubt zovaal is right in anything 😄

hazy kettle
#

F that, big time. <w< He showed, in the cinematic, that he might've had a fair point back in the day (i.e. the Arbiter was a friggin' part of him, JESUS), but trying to 'force his reality' into being.. nah, man, that's not benevolent, that's not for the good of anyone.

#

Especially if you have to MC people for it.

slender quest
#

he's portrayed as a one dimensional villain

hazy kettle
#

Sadly.

#

Had the potential for more. :x

#

But, on the other hand, the entire community (myself included) hates the on-going "4D Chess" that we're apparently a part of, as pawns, despite the fact that 99% of players can smell the red herring from a mile away.

slender quest
#

fair

tropic trail
#

overthinking intensifies lol

pulsar minnow
#

So not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but the fourth color for all the new cosmetic covenant armor drops from dailies in Korthia

#

Just got a quest from Mikanikos to collect the Foresworn Gauntlets

unborn glacier
young latch
cunning fossil
#

I'd like on next expac

#

Praying for that Return to Azeroth expac

dense plover
cunning fossil
#

I just feel extremely disconnected from the world and it's like. Why do I care about Azeroth beyond "I'm also a person on this slowly waking mass"?

tropic trail
#

Eh...

cunning fossil
#

And I'm not saying this as a classic Andy. I'm just daying this personally

#

I just feel like we're going too deep into space wars and stakes that are becoming like Dragon Ball Z's

tropic trail
#

:/

cunning fossil
#

There are so many awesome characters in past expacs that we almost never get to see again in New ones. Or it's extremely brief

#

I get it these are subjective opinions but they are mine so shrug

#

I'm a Legion baby to be COMPLETELY fair

tropic trail
#

You've gotta understand that in a game with a world as large as Azeroth and with different worlds that we've been able to travel to already, keeping all of the content relevant 100% of the time isn't exactly feasible

cunning fossil
#

I'm not saying all the content should be relevant 100% of the time.

But I feel as if we've been extremely disconnected from Azeroth as a world since Legion.

tropic trail
#

And for every person asking for a return to an old zone, you have people bitching that they're rehashing content and not adding anything new

cunning fossil
#

That'll always happen but that's not a good reason to bit do it.

tropic trail
#

Cataclysm actually caused a lot of pushback for changing zones that people had already grown accustomed to

cunning fossil
#

That was because it destroyed them and wrecked them.

#

Not saying it was a bad idea

#

It makes thematically and story sense!

#

But if these places were restored to their former glory, or at least repaired. People will be much happier

tropic trail
#

Eh

cunning fossil
#

After all. People were happy about the Garden in Stormwind being repaired after the longest time

tropic trail
#

I still don't think you realize the full ramifications or steps involved for what you're talking about

cunning fossil
#

I do understand that it's a BIG ask

#

Especially at the blizz quality

#

I'm just saying it'd be cool if it were to happen

tropic trail
#

And then people will be upset that they can't play the content that's been changed

cunning fossil
#

Zidormi

tropic trail
#

And deal with even more phasing issues

#

Think of the level of work it would require for a Cataclysm-style revamp of just Kalimdor

#

Go pull up a map and look at every zone

cunning fossil
#

I'm aware that every zone kinda got messed up.

#

I'm not saying it'd be easy or anything like that.

tropic trail
#

Not just messed up--I'm talking about redesigns, questlines, NPCs...

#

We just started the trend of returning to updated old zones last expansion. Slow your roll

cunning fossil
#

->

#

What do you mean slow my roll?

pulsar minnow
#

There's nothing wrong with wanting it to happen

cunning fossil
#

Am I being unreasonable?

tropic trail
#

It's like asking for more races and more customization options when we just got more

cunning fossil
#

I'm not asking for it right now Gumball.

#

I just hope for it in the future

pulsar minnow
#

Well new races would be pretty cool to be fair- like the shadowlands ones

tropic trail
#

We just got ten

cunning fossil
#

New Ranged Mail wearer Class tho? :0

pulsar minnow
#

Well half reskins/recolors but 10

tropic trail
#

And the Shadowlands races have no purpose to exist outside of the Shadowlands

cunning fossil
#

I would love to take a bit of the shadowlands with me. It'd be cool like "I've been to the Shadowlands. This is what I've learned" then I throw death glaives at em.

pulsar minnow
#

Well to repay us for saving the Shadowlands I dont see why not

tropic trail
#

There's a fine line between wanting new content and then feeling entitled to it

cunning fossil
#

I don't feel entitled to it tho lmao

pulsar minnow
#

I think they're going to do that WhereAmI. Ion has suggested that we'll keep these abilities

cunning fossil
#

I was just discussing a what if.

tropic trail
cunning fossil
#

An admittedly BIG what if

#

But still

cunning fossil
#

I feel like it'd be a semi simple solution.
Make the systems you add to the game Simple yet customizable and just make it a BASE feature to the game.

#

Making a progression system that only applies to the current expac is the issue. It should be looser. Yes it requires more balancing but at least it's not for things that will go away in 2-3 year a

pulsar minnow
#

It'd make sense too now that they've streamlined the story

#

We could lose our soulbinds sure, but I'd love to have the option to use Spear of Bastion or condemn as a bonus talent row

cunning fossil
#

Time to steal that Wowhead UI

#

Tbh, o'll be happy to try that.
Or if they still want to make it kinda "restrictive" cuz that's how blizz is

#

They can make it a trait for everyone who has gone through the sl story (or reached level 60) like they can do a prayer to the covenant and get their ability for the day

#

NOT saying I like the restrictive part of it

#

But that is a possible way Blizz may do this

pulsar minnow
#

It's not like there's 36 like how there was in Legion

#

(with many just becoming talents anyways)

#

There's 48 of these crazy abilities that got so much work in order to ensure they were somewhat balanced. It'd be a massive waste to never see, say, Spear of Bastion, again.

strange falcon
undone onyx
#

This is just speculation but maybe the jailer is going to the portol of worlds? Where you can access all realms light,void life etc etc

#

Also does he want to change all worlds, which seems impossible since the voids lords live outside reality, same with light and other world's, but its still confusing

dense plover
#

I’ve never heard of it

#

Pretty sure he is going to the sepulcher of the first ones

undone onyx
#

What does he wanna recreate reality as in the universe or all existence meaning all realities or just the shadowlands?

unborn glacier
#

Reality

tropic trail
#

Well anything that happens to the Shadowlands is kinda critical to the mortal realms so both

#

Either way, eating Azeroth's world soul is a part of it so that's definitely not good for us

#

Hell, he's potentially even basically responsible for the creation of the Burning Legion

jade basalt
#

The First Ones architected everything, all the forces and realms

tropic trail
#

*supposedly

jade basalt
#

No no, confirmed for a fact

tropic trail
#

The Shadowlands already existed before the First Ones created the Eternal Ones and established the covenants

jade basalt
#

I don't think we necessarily know this. Sounds unlikely given they are called Progenitors. But I didn't say the opposite, I said they 'architected' not 'created'.

"They were these mysterious and very powerful beings that sort of architect-ed the framework of the universe of which the Titans, the Pantheon of Death, pantheons of all these different influences are kind of the next layer down from the First Ones, these progenitors of the universe."

tropic trail
#

They definitely shaped them, for sure

jade basalt
#

Although 'architected' means 'designing the creation of'..

tropic trail
#

But even then, all of the information we have are still speculation and half-truths, hearsay at best

#

But nvm it's irrelevant

jade basalt
#

No no what I quoted is from Steve Danuser

#

But we know nothing about the Sepulcher of the First Ones yet other than the fact that it contains their secrets, and that it would be catastrophic if Zovaal reached it.

Maybe it does allow the (re)shaping of the cosmic forces and realms and Zovaal plans to use it to reshape everything.

tropic trail
#

Which is definitely going to be a bad thing in the long run, of course

jade basalt
#

So'leah had access to First One technomagic and it gave her "the power of creation"

uncut vault
#

"ordered" is probably the most accurate word, but it runs into issues where the first ones run into a lot of thematic overlap with the titans/arcane so far

jade basalt
#

They've basically replaced the Titans, but on a bigger scale

#

The First Ones basically founded everything
Then the Titans did the maintenance work for the Great Dark Beyond, the Eternal Ones kept the machine of Death running, etc.

kindred comet
#

I uhm...I dunno if I did somethin' wrong on the PTR....so I leveld a blood elf priest I chose the Venthyr covenant and I wanted to like try out the battle of Ardenweald questline...but the problem is...the tab for me to accept the quest didn't pop up...

#

I dunno what happened and if I did somethin' wrong... 😦

dense plover
#

thats usually the case after the patch goes live

#

they break stuff somewhat intentionally because it isnt free wow

#

if you want to play the battle of ardenweald, you can do so on retail now

kindred comet
dense plover
#

its almost always the case

#

theyre not going to fix it until 9.2 or 9.1.5 ptr

kindred comet
austere gazelle
#

Tazavesh mail boss is bugged 😦 We bursted it so we could finish the dungeon

dense plover
#

report it on the bug report forum or on the support page

austere gazelle
#

already did it, and it seems it a very frequent bug

pulsar minnow
austere gazelle
#

Good to know, we'll try this next week

#

Bit bothering that bug on the PTR of this magnitude are not fixed in release though

#

I understand that some bug can wait due to roadmap or budget , but this one... If you don't have a good DPS to burn the boss or if you can't fix it by relogging... Is a bug that prevent you from completing the dungeon

dense plover
#

might be that they havent figured out how to fix it

#

sometimes problems are bigger than they seem

mossy meteor
#

^

austere gazelle
#

Sure, there is also this part, but you can put a workaround in place to make the boss " doable " without requiring cheesing it

#

until you fix it completely

dense plover
#

if you have a problem you dont put a workaround in place

#

because then you wont fix it

#

especially for content that isnt required for progression

#

im certain theyre working on a fix

#

my guess is its something in the underlying code the boss uses to function and they probably have to rewrite how it works

austere gazelle
#

more like the wallet item on the ground should be made interactable object instead of " mob like " entity

#

they " target " and " follow your direction" if you're near

dense plover
#

pretty sure objects cant do the things the entity needs to do tho

#

thats even more work - that requires rewriting how objects work

austere gazelle
#

Oh sure, those are just " item that should drop on you if you walk on it " , I understand the reason behind it, but it's not working ^^
Something like quest item that add an extra button when you click on it should correct the problem

pulsar minnow
tropic trail
#

Tinfoil hat conspiracy theory

#

Arthas' soul is in Kingsmourne the same way Ner'zhul's soul was in Frostmourne

slender quest
#

Tinfoil? I say this is the most likely scenario

pulsar minnow
tropic trail
#

Did you think of this before or did I have a 5head?

unborn glacier
tropic trail
vernal magnet
#

gimme my notie woties uWu

storm marsh
#

Question: Is campaign story going on before the raid events or after? Or the raid just happens in the mid? (Is the raid available for gameplay reasons, not lore?)

#

I think the question might be a bit confusing

#

I mean, does the Raid lore and defeat of Sylvanas happen after the campaign lorewise?

dense plover
#

No

#

It’s part of the korthia campaign

#

Canonically occurs after chapter 4 but before 5

vernal magnet
#

patch notes when SadgeSitSip

young latch
#

or at least close to the truth

dense plover
vernal magnet
#

tomorrow

dense plover
silent urchin
#

They put up some changes on PTR on.. friday? Buffs to fire mages and hunters, and a nerf to affli locks, iirc

#

oh, buff to affli locks

#

nerf to shadow priests

#

I'd be a little surprised if that ends up being everything, but I wouldn't expect anything hugely drastic to appear

vernal magnet
#

so my dreams of an enhance buff is dead

mossy meteor
#

enh doesn't need a buff

dense plover
#

^^^

ancient jasper
#

The Arthas soul in the Mournblade is less tinfoil than if the Jailer had managed to get Varian's soul and that is what is inside it

mossy meteor
#

varian was disenchanted

dense plover
#

considering the jailer had sylvanas' soul shard

#

its very possible it could be arthas or uther or a bunch of others

#

arthas seems the most likely

tropic trail
ancient jasper
#

You REALLY think Blizzard follows their own logic?

tropic trail
#

I think gamers are the worst thing about gaming

unborn glacier
ancient jasper
#

Uh.. Okay?

unborn glacier
#

???

#

I was... agreeing with you?

ancient jasper
#

What he said above lol

terse patrol
#

Blizzard changes lore as they go to fit the story they want to tell in the moment. It makes it easier for them, but it also damages the integrity of their own universe when said universes rules change at the drop of a hat.

#

While yes, in the old lore Varian’s soul would 100% be destroyed, I sincerely doubt it for modern Warcraft.

light compass
tropic trail
#

Some people are also too quick to call revelations retcons

ancient jasper
#

And some people are far too quick to defend pretty much any shenanigans from Blizzard

tulip sun
#

People are also way too quick to shit on them.

slender ember
#

I literally just want Uther and Arthas to have one moment together

rotund prawn
#

I mean they already kinda did when he kicked Arthas into the Maw

slender ember
#

A proper moment lol

#

Because technically speaking - he was as un-whole if not more so than Sylvanas

#

And Uther wasn’t all himself either when he did that

rotund prawn
#

If Arthas does shit at all, I'd anticipate that, since Uther and Arthas are interconnected both in life stuff and deathy stuff

slender ember
#

I really feel like they can’t fully close Uther’s story without bringing Arthas back around - I think it would be a real tear jerker if they were both able to see each other as themselves before the blade again

#

Then again —- I’m a sucker for character moments like that so it might just be wishful thinking LOL

tropic trail
#

Like, Arthas did a lot of messed up stuff before he found it in Northrend

slender ember
#

All I can think of is Stratholme and what he did to the mercenaries

#

I consider Stratholme a necessary evil though because there was literally no work around. People were already turning and it was put them out of their misery and nip the problem in the butt before it could explode or let the living be devoured by their relatives and neighbors when they turned

tropic trail
#

Doesn't matter what you take it as--just saying that before Frostmourne ever became involved, Arthas had already done enough to make Uther abandon him

slender ember
#

Stratholme was the reason he turned his back on him though. Like that was the big occurrence that severed their relationship.

#

And it was an incredibly stupid reason because they were both being pig headed about it

tropic trail
#

There were instances of Arthas becoming too extreme before that

#

Stratholme was just the last straw that broke the camel's back

#

My point being--Uther and Arthas had their falling out before Frostmourne and Arthas becoming a death knight even came into the picture

slender ember
#

That doesn’t mean they can’t rectify things between them though in Shadowlands.

tropic trail
#

That wasn't my point

slender ember
#

Plus I just realized my autocorrect fucked me on my first post

#

I meant to say the blade and his madness but I’m at work so madness and blade ran together lol

tropic trail
#

You stated, "I think it would be a real tear jerker if they were both able to see each other as themselves before the blade again," and my point was that they had their falling out before Frostmourne was involved

slender ember
#

I had tried to put a / between madness and blade but my autocorrect poofed it

tropic trail
#

... riiiight

slender ember
#

On that point though —- it was the blade that led ‘Arthas’ to kill Uther which led the severed half of Uther that was saved by the Light to drop him into the Maw. Their relationship was extremely terse but the blade was ultimately what drove that unforgivable betrayal. That Uther didn’t hate Arthas for everything he did before he took up Frostmourne - he hated him for what he did after.

#

That’s just how I see it though

unborn glacier
#

Uther admits he caused Arthas to take the path he did because he neglected and didn't take seriously Arthas' doubts.

rotund prawn
#

Though I'm not certain about the arthas lore, as a person with a desire to do good who slowly got corrupted by his flaws seems super Revendreth

unborn glacier
#

He was not judged

rotund prawn
#

Yeah ik

strange falcon
cunning fossil
#

Oof

foggy abyss
#

WoW's position is challenged and will be lost to FFXIV and that's good, from that 2 outcome, WoW remains shitty and slowly fades as a bad MMO, or Blizzard actually cares and WoW change for the better

#

The later is unlikely

cunning fossil
#

I think the devs will care.
Or at least those profit guys. They know WoW is a big part of their quarterly earnings

#

The only reason it's been coasting is because the management team are trying to milk it for what it's worth. But if someone can salvage it for the long term, they'd make more money

#

So basically we're relying on the marketing/finance team to give WoW the funds it actually needs.

#

The WoW team are probably mentally drained

dense plover
#

FFXIV doesn’t offer the endgame that wow does

#

It never has

#

It’s always been a more story focused game

#

A lot of people are trying it right now

#

But they’re not going to stay once they get to endgame

#

Because they’re going to be disappointed

#

You think 9.1 endgame sucks, boy, beast quests and raiding and duties are literally all 14 has at endgame

#

It’s like pandaria dailies as the entire endgame

hazy kettle
#

@dense plover While I understand where you're coming from, Stronk never said that people will just play the FF14 endgame and abandon WoW for that. Regardless of whether the endgame is good or not, WoW currently has some major problems, which turns off a lot of players. They might play the FF14 endgame, a single player game or something else entirely - like Jenga.

terse patrol
#

The “leak” is full of dumb shit. The only reason it has some good points is because the person who wrote it just included all the publicly known beef players have been having with Blizzard.

#

The person jerking off streamers is the most telling.

#

They want their post to be shared by Asmongold.

slender quest
#

FFXIV hype will die sooner or later.
It's nothing than a flicker. People like Asmongold will not stick to this game for long

terse patrol
#

I’m surprised we haven’t heard anything about 9.2 yet.

dense plover
#

Probably post mythic race

#

Blizzard doesn’t want to overshadow that

strange falcon
strange falcon
strange falcon
foggy abyss
#

Once Mythic is cleared & once glad is claimed you have nothing else to do

#

FFXIV's endgame is far bigger
Offers a variety of things to do that extend beyond Raiding
like the Gold Saucer, professions which actually matter
Relic weapons
Ultimates
mount farms etc...

strange falcon
# foggy abyss WoW's endgame is all it has

i always said that FF is more if you like story and RP and wow if you like raiding/pvp
again,you countered your own point by saying "you have nothing else to do" then citing mount farms,

because guess what,once you cleared mythic/glad,you can mount farm even in wow!
you can do mog farming,or achievement collecting,and other activities.
but again,i want to make clear i like FF14,but imo it is not a game that i would play outside of the story/savage raid.
let me break down the points you made one by one.

Gold Saucer is like a permanent darkmoon faire,which is very cool yes,but the gameplay loop there is to get tickets to buy cosmetics/mounts, once you finish buying everything you have no reason outside of "actually going there for fun" what a wild concept.
so while the minigames can be fun,big stress on can, it follows the same loop of the faire where you get tickets,you buy stuff, until you run out of stuff to buy.

professions do matter yes,but that is largely also because of player housing,
the professions create catchup gear,like wow to a reduced extent,
i really like how they made professions their own "jobs" with rotations and stuff,but then again,if you are crafting something at a high level,you certainly dont want to fail a craft and lose precious expensive materials,so you end up using a macro,and that elaborate crafting systems becomes a single button press just like wow, so i cant give full points for that.

Relic weapons on a good day are nice looking and on a bad day they're a mind numbing huge grind, but you can compare this to getting old legendaries or getting different legion artifact skins.

Ultimates,yes,very fun to be honest,but there's only 3 and you're lucky if they release 1 per year, and once you finish it,you have no reason to go there again,but they are really nice bossfight,where they kinda fall on the longterm is quantity/replayability value.
i cite replayability value because FF does boss design quite differently from wow.
in wow it's more like adapting to a fight in the moment,
while in FF it's a dance,you exactly know when,where and how a mechanic is going to happen down to the second almost, i personally prefer the wow style of boss design,but i have nothing against "dance" bossfights,the ultimates are really cool

Mount farms,you know you can do just that in wow too!,
only difference is that FF has around 150 mounts(might be lower)
while wow has like 600(maybe more?) mounts,so if you just want quantity wow has it beat,though i have to mention i find it a really cool idea how FF deals with recolors from all the EX trials where if you have them all they combine into another mount.

#

so,people are entitled to like either game,that doesnt mean that FF14 is flawlessly perfect and does everything better than wow because it surely does not,
a big sore point is the trasmog system still requiring you to have the items in the bags/glamour dresser instead of having an infinite box like wow's trasmog,

my 2 biggest sore points with the game(not even related to raiding)
are housing(not the actual housing itself,that's cool) i mean the actual excruciating process of getting a house "the normal way" not with someone giving you a spare house they have and skipping the standing at a sign for 2-36hrs and having to fight with bots and autoclickers,and what completely turned me off to the idea of owning a house is how the game automatically deletes your house if you dont log in for more than 4 months,
which technically was their ""solution"" to players hogging up the entire housing space with 1 guy having like 50 houses, "design decisions that completely miss the point and just end up a nuisance for the general playerbase" thats one thing they got in common with blizzard!

and the 2nd sore point is Eureka and how anyone thinks it's "fun"
especially in its original incarnation,not the much much easier version we have now with player-run "hunt trains" which even with those,it is excruciatingly mind numbing and boring to go through.

cunning fossil
#

Tldr pls

foggy abyss
#

Yup

#

too long

#

You could prove to me that god exist in that wall of text I still wouldn't read it

strange falcon
strange falcon
unborn glacier
foggy abyss
#

Nah it's a sterile debate

#

It's down to taste

primal dirge
#

I'm waiting for the circlejerk pendulum to swing

#

Give it a month or two

twilit coral
#

mmmm any information about the grimorium?

#

is the 20/8/2021 de oficial release?

dense plover
#

What’s a grimorium

#

This feels like you posted in the wrong discord or something

tropic trail
#

Remember, make your arguments into seven word top text bottom text memes or else your point is worthless khadgarface

#

Absolute state of some dingdongs I swear

cunning fossil
#

Lmao

tulip sun
storm marsh
#

Sorry if I'm late to the party, but did people start getting that 4th covenant tmog tint from Korthia today?

strange falcon
tropic trail
#

Yup. Bandwagon bracelet opinions that reject any detailed scrutiny

jagged wigeon
#

Arthas did nothing wrong

vapid peak
#

Someone got the Grimoire

#

Seems like the only person to get it

#

Brokers pov on cosmology map

dense plover
#

im gonna need scans

#

im sure wowhead will have them soon

uncut vault
#

well, assuming they get the book haha

#

seems like it got delayed de facto everywhere except australia

tulip sun
#

Gimme moooore

vapid peak