beta-ptr-spoilers

[deep pawn]

More likely we get help from the Titans at the end of the last raid after we effed up and hurt Azeroth

[little hound]

Considering that Xal now has the power of a Void Lord? N'zoth would be like a fly against a swatter, especially in a weakened and bodyless state.

[rain cave]

and N'zoth doing some 4d chess tricking us into working with him, maybe in some kind of diguise or whatever, that lines up with him and would start a great spy vs spy thing with xal

[little hound]

GOD I hope we get to kill Odyn in the Last Titan..

[rain cave]

she has a disk with the power of a voidlord#

she herself isn't strong at all

[little hound]

Vyranoth might have frozen his ass for abit, but damn do i want to kill him.

[deep pawn]

I honestly don't know if we'll ever see N'zoth again. His whole timeline is a messy paradox now

[rain cave]

not more than the average strong magic user anyway

that's why I'm intrigued in Xal, she isn't uber powerful it's all in the dark heart

and her true power is her mind

[little hound]

I feel like that's a big wrong. She has proven that she is quite capable even without the DArk Heart.

[rain cave]

yeah intelligence wise, but not strength/power wise

[deep pawn]

Remember N'zoth's long circle is now about everything he learned from us while we saved Chromie.

[little hound]

She popped into the Dark Heart and saved us INSIDE of Dimensius's Domain, no "Basic Mage" would come close to that.

[deep pawn]

His circle is complete

[rain cave]

never said she was basic

i said she's a strong magic user

like jaina, for example

[little hound]

You mean Pirate-Edition Elsa?

[rain cave]

Jaina feels a tad out of place in the modern narrative I'll be real

there was a good chance to do some cool stuff with her in shadowlands but they just.. didn't?

there was flickerings of it

[little hound]

Yeeeah.

Most main characters in Shadowlands were useless, but then again.. So was Shadowlands?

[rain cave]

nah we got venari out of it

[little hound]

Looks at Baine sitting on his beef butt for 3 patches

[rain cave]

I find it hilarious that the random sunwalker paladin who pops up from time to time got more lore development as a random background npc in oribos than baine got in the entire expansion

[little hound]

Ah yes, Dezco.

The tauren who accidentally crushed his own kid.

[pulsar minnow]

My favorite part of shadowlands is when Uther, Jaina, Anduin, and Sylvanas are all gathered around the remnants of Arthas’ soul and only Sylvanas says ANYTHING. Great writing 10/10

I really hate the way they retconned Arthas to just being pure evil. He wasn’t. He was still in there somewhere hence Jaina’s locket

[little hound]

Uther was useless.
Jaina was keeping her urges in check from getting aroused.
Anduin was in Trauma Land.
And Sylvanas had some reason.

I'm stoked for the Last Titan too, knowing for a fact that we'll get to see Wrathion again.

[pulsar minnow]

Shadowlands had like every ability to not be as bad as it was and they just continued to make it worse and worse and worse

[rain cave]

oof

[rain cave]

I understand WHY they didn't want to rehash arthas too much, but honestly we should have gotten atleast 1 well animated cinematic of all of Arthas's victims seeing him one last time

especially for jaina

[little hound]

I'm not mad about how Arthas ended.

I'M MAD THAT THEY DIDN'T GIVE HIM A MODEL, OR PROPER SENDOFF! CMON! Least have him apologise and say Goodbye to Jaina!

[pulsar minnow]

I get why but they also started the expansion with the Uther cinematic and everything in the expansion revolved around what Arthas had done. They kind of pigeonholed themselves into this position

[rain cave]

arthas race changed to nelf and became a wisp in his last appearance

[little hound]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/259447706718699531/1420887782183796777/IMG_5958.gif

[rain cave]

early on in shadowlands, I was really hoping we were going to get a Kel'thuzad and Jaina teamup to try and fetch arthas's soul from the sanctum

[pulsar minnow]

Like honestly if that little anima orb at least just said like “I love you Jaina” or “forgive me Uther” or some bullshit before disenchanting himself it would’ve been much better

[rain cave]

like a very strained alliance of conveneince between two frost mages on opposite side of their relationship with arthas

but not kelthuzad apparently was just on the jailers side?

[pulsar minnow]

Instead Uther’s entire storyline in Shadowlands and his guilt about condemning arthas to turbo hell got no real conclusion because he decided to take a backseat on his own story and let Sylvanas do the talking

[rain cave]

not sure.. why

[little hound]

Kel'thuzad's only reason is and has always been just eh.. Power.

[rain cave]

he's meant to be edgy uther but he feels like a screaming puppy compared to the people he's with 😭

[rain cave]

which is sad because I think there was an interesting quasi friendship between himself and arthas

[little hound]

Its called simping, and he did it good

[rain cave]

even if it was horrifically twisted

honestly I'm shocked sylvanas didn't realize she was on the baddies side when Kelthuzad was at the work meeting

do you think the jailer worked in waterfall or agile

"this scrum we're going to finish that mourneblade for Anduin. Sylvanas can you assign yourself to quality testing for it on trello?"

[pulsar minnow]

I am really excited for the last Titan just to see how they retcon shadowlands

[deep pawn]

I'm personally fine with Isle of Fangs. It does feel a bit weird as a major patch but at least it's out there so we're prepared for it.

It's too big to be Siren's Isle

And they couldn't just make it appear in 12.1 cause that'd be stupid

[lavish raptor]

The Maw Jira must be crazy

[ember blaze]

why would he do that

and his story with jaina is over.

[rain cave]

it WAS until they used arthas's story as entire premise for an expansion that then didn't feature arthas

[dry plinth]

is anyone able to buy the bel'ameth structural pieces on the ptr

[pulsar minnow]

Yknow with Quel Thalas being revamped I kinda hope blizz considers revamping the character select background of Blood elves. Of course nobody really sees them anymore with warbands but it would be a nice touch

[deep pawn]

I do all the time

I don't have all chars in camps

I only set up 2

[little hound]

I'm thinking outside of the Decor box.

[worn crown]

Adored the quote from Sylvanas in the quest in the PTR: "I know the truth of death better than most. This? It is too convenient. Too ordered."

Since TLT promises "big cosmic conspiracy" and the Maw and Sylvanas are being show right now in the prelude to Midnight, maybe Sylvanas manages to accomplish in TLT what she said in the SL intro cinematic: "This world is a prison and I will set us all free."

Perhaps TLT will be exciting at all

[pulsar minnow]

I mean it’s more so just hinting at the fact that the real realms of death aren’t the shadowlands- and that the titans were the actual first ones

[rain cave]

I don't think the titans will end up being the first ones

the brokers seemed pretty confident in that

however I do think it might end up being the first ones were sort of dethroned by their own order creations

or something like that

the most interesting part to me about the first ones is them having a zereth for every domain

[fading lintel]

Anyone know how to get suramar windows or the dornogal windows? for housing!

[novel zodiac]

question, has blizzard said anything about more neighborhoods?

[upper pasture]

Nope, they are focused on the first two for now and launching them correctly

[pulsar minnow]

Wouldn’t be surprising to see maybe Bel’Ameth or Quel Thalas added but that’s all speculation for now

[novel zodiac]

my friends dont want to play in the horde one, and i dont want to play in the alliance one

so i was hoping for the possibility of one in quel'thalas-tirisfal

[rain cave]

just wait until we get a primordial azeroth/black empire expansion and we can get a black empire neighbourgood

[pulsar minnow]

Putting my house in Zin Azshari if we do a time travel expansion again

I love this shot so much. It would never happen but imagine a world where we got a city with this immense sense of scale

[dense plover]

You can play in both though. One house per faction

[novel zodiac]

not the same

[uncut vault]

funniest possible ending to her eternal chase of that golem

[ember blaze]

why is she chasing a golem

[uncut vault]

she's been chasing one since TBC

[subtle oar]

Sucklet!

[lone mantle]

[dull sage]

Spooky.

[thin warren]

was going to say the exact same 😄

is it with an halloween endeavor?

[noble mica]

Cute 😂

[noble mica]

No he has alpha or it’s his friend house. One of those 😆

Damn i forgot we got halloween 🎃 already

[plain violet]

Finally!

[austere gazelle]

Na, the titans are not the first ones. I think we're looking at an Greek mythology tragedy.

Aman'thul went back in time, disappointed by the creation of the First Ones, and threw them in Tartarus or whatever, and subded their creation into the timeline he saw fits for Order. kind of what the Greek gods did with the Titans in the mythology.

It's possible that each cosmic realms where ' not ' intended to be like that and that Aman'thul locked them inside plan that the First Ones created for them.

We had a glimpse in Zereth Mortis. There was an harmony before between every forces and then if was thrown into chaos somehow. Might be the same Time Azeroth / Aln'Haran or whatever she is fought the " darkness " and locked herself up within her core and that the " spirit element " ( which could be labelled as the " element of Harmony " ) was 'syphonned' by the world soul ( or the world soul was the source ? )

remember the everliving statuette of Korthia..

A city of secrets. A history of lies.
Hope. Betrayal. Sacrifice. Faces change. The tale does not.
So many secrets, so little time left to share them.
Hidden from daylight, a sleeping flame rests atop the sixth tree.
The seventh covets what the six hold fast. The fulcrum wavers. All will be undone.

[rain cave]

something I'd like to throw in is the lens we should view everything blizzard are throwing at us with

the consistent narrative since legion, has been "mortals free will beats gods"

effectively

they've leaned into it more explicitly and implicitly at different times

but at its core, warcrafts story especially since legion has been about mortals

and how we make our own destiny

so a big part of how I think people should theorize is based on how well their theory can connect to that larger narrative thematically

[lone mantle]

Yes, that is an Alliance duskwood-themed house from Midnight Alpha.

[thin warren]

Cool

[little hound]

I hope we'll get more Holiday decors etc as time goes on, Pumpkin etc etc.

Duskwood Biome house with "Spooky Scary Skeletons" Playing 😄

[thin warren]

i hope there are some standard layouts, so i don't have to put all the effort in building it

[lone mantle]

[rain cave]

I kind of like how basic these weapons are even if they don’t fit the 3 raids

They do hint at something very paladiny though

Makes me wonder if they’re scrapped arathi ones

[rain cave]

why are the ruutani actually kind of adorable

can we get these guys as playable as well please

they have plant raptors?!

also am I tripping or are they similar

[clear apex]

hope some of these animals are also druid forms we can get

[austere gazelle]

I think it's tied to the whole plot of Azeroth / dream / free will, etc

[worn crown]

Yeah, for me it's pretty implicity we're looking to Greek Mythology up to now - WoW Titans (or some of them overthrew the First Ones), just like the Olympian Gods overthrew the Titans

And that begs the question: if we subdue the Titans, will we free the First Ones?
Will it not be trading one kind of gods for another?

[worn crown]

Yeah free will will play a big part, I guess

[austere gazelle]

Azeroth, Eonar, whatever's left ?

[ember blaze]

playable race/class when

a dps spec using plants/trees to attack would be cool

[rain cave]

it does sadden me that we don't get to see more supportive magics used in an offensive role

I think people would love a DPS light caster spec

or an icy/watery shaman dpsing

nature thorns and poison druid dps

[ember blaze]

yeah

sucks seeing cool stuff like tree roots just being a niche spell on druids

let me attack with that, summon giant trees

do u think we get this as a housing item? or is it gonna get turned into 🍍

[dull sage]

Your entire house will turn into a pineapple.

[clear apex]

i want the pervy fiction books they have

[lethal gate]

Have they mentioned if there will be house exteriors which are Blood Elf and Night Elf themed? I know there are plenty of interior items with those themes - but exterior?

[clear apex]

yes

by Dec-ish we should also have those but maybe not until Mid launch

[ember blaze]

that human tauren book one I had no idea those NPCs were in legion

on some random tent

[clear apex]

you can read it during Vday as well

i wanna put em by a bed in my house in a lil stack XD

nothing fancy, sorry if this is a double post ??

that fireplace is from the hunter order hall and it's so good

[dull sage]

I wanted to do some housing but a good chunk of what I wanted was in areas I couldn't access. For some reason Stormwind wasn't accessable.

And I wanted some Gilneas stuff.

[clear apex]

SW wasnt? I was able to go there

but i didnt have SW rep so I couldnt buy half the items

[dull sage]

I wasn't able to get out the mage tower. Was no exit.

[clear apex]

oh you just walk into the bricks

the portal effect was missing

[dull sage]

...

Oh so this is some platform 9 and three quarters gig.

I'm mildly annoyed now, lol.

[clear apex]

a lot of people in chat were having that issue

[dull sage]

I'm hoping they make the older reps account wide, otherwise I may as well start grinding on the main.

[ember blaze]

they will but they fell behind 🛌

[deep pawn]

it breaks things to try and combine reps

[dull sage]

Well, classic reps don't take long anyway.

[ember blaze]

they can figure it out 🤷‍♂️

legion should have been eays

[lethal gate]

I've heard so much mixed messaging regarding having an opposite-faction housing exterior, i.e. a Blood Elf house in Founder's Point or a Human house in Razorwind Shores. This interview makes it sound like housing exteriors are completely unlocked: https://youtu.be/KeA2FzXivvo?si=AVDZfd7qQhgUmqmq&t=141. Does anyone have a blue post supporting or dissenting against this interview?

[pliant bridge]

https://worldofwarcraft.blizzard.com/en-us/news/24230692/midnight-come-home-to-azeroth-with-housing this one

[deep pawn]

Someone managed to get a horde hut into the alliance zone

and you can do some exterior work that pushes that aesthetic

I think Blizzard is being stupid there

[ember blaze]

how the heck do u go back to the neighborhood

i left through the portal before getting a house and now i cant even teleport in through the tutorial button

[upper pasture]

there should be a portal in the main city hubs

[ember blaze]

where

i dont see anything on map

[upper pasture]

in the portal room

in org and SW

[ember blaze]

man its so damn laggy

no way are there that many ppl testing housing

[ember blaze]

same error lol

legit cant go inside

[upper pasture]

guess you should report the bug and then copy a new character and try again

[ember blaze]

seems like a general issue looking at some ppl here lol

guess ill wait for live launch 💀

[clear apex]

They literally had the ptr crashing for a few hours when it went live

You can also try porting back using the housing window which is on your icon bar

[dull sage]

Ladies and Gentlemen, housing. https://x.com/kurlancheek/status/1980267632743035062

Jesse Kurlancheek (@kurlancheek)

In the grim dark future, there is only ... housing?

(Credit to Sparkiee on Discord)

X · Oct 20, 2025, 1:39 PM

[rain cave]

https://tenor.com/view/worried-scared-oh-no-stop-it-fearful-gif-12534009

[clear apex]

housing ptr ended

was remodeling when they announced it going away

[deep pawn]

You'll have it fully in just 6 weeks

[clear apex]

I know it was a fun test though, glad i got some hands on. cant wait to see all the decor

[worn crown]

Nice house!

[lone mantle]

You are the result of 3.8 billion years of evolutionary success.

[clear apex]

thanks for noticing

[noble mica]

Celine Dion is crying oh no 😆

[fathom fulcrum]

https://fxtwitter.com/Portergauge/status/1980027729220370900

Portergauge 🏳️‍🌈 (@Portergauge)

Okay tensions are already starting to escalate haha, Lor'themar is not taking any shit

**💬 9 🔁 3 ❤️ 67 👁️ 19.6K **

FxTwitter · Oct 19, 2025, 9:46 PM

I mean... without the Alliance there would be no Sunwell

🤫

[rain cave]

without amanthul there wouldn't be one either

also kind of crazy that turalyon of all people is microaggressing against the elves 😭

like bro your wife

[fathom fulcrum]

what does bro have to do with anything?

how is bro related to that tweet

[rain cave]

Amanthul ripped y'shaarj out of the planet

creating the well of eternity

which then was the thing that the sunwell is derived from

[fathom fulcrum]

trillion years ago bruh

thered be no sunwell without the Alliance, periodt

Lor'themar emotional dictator 👎

[rain cave]

I mean

there'd be no alliance without the horde

[fathom fulcrum]

what

[rain cave]

only reason the alliance was formed was because the horde invaded

[fathom fulcrum]

what 😭

[rain cave]

I mean am I wrong?

[fathom fulcrum]

yeah

[rain cave]

the alliance was literally falling apart in early warcraft lore

[fathom fulcrum]

they were friends prior to the first war though

[rain cave]

the thing that brought it together again was the horde invasion

but my larger point is that saying the sunwell wouldn't exist without the alliance is a bit facetious

considering that the alliance didn't save it in WC3...

and that's what drove them to join the horde

[fathom fulcrum]

there was no alliance bruh

you wont believe it... but the horde didnt cleanse the Sunwell

[rain cave]

the alliance has been around since warcraft 1

technically a bit before it but

it was kind in tatters

[fathom fulcrum]

there is no alliance after lordaeron falls

is gone

[rain cave]

the alliance are literally around to this day

so

[fathom fulcrum]

thats a different Alliance...

[rain cave]

in fact they're playable since launch

then why are you saying the sunwell wouldn't exist without the alliance 😭

if it's a different alliance

[fathom fulcrum]

cuz Velen cleansed it...

[rain cave]

when?

[fathom fulcrum]

Burning Crusade i believe

no Velen = no Sunwell

[rain cave]

you mean the raid that both factions helped in

[fathom fulcrum]

yeah the Alliance happens to be helping the Horde quite a lot

[rain cave]

the sunwell wouldn't have needed to be cleansed if the alliance weren't a thing in a way

[fathom fulcrum]

what

[rain cave]

only reason the sunwell was corrupted was because of Arthas, Illidan, Azshara, etc

their actions had a cascading effect

[fathom fulcrum]

the heck does Azshara and Illidan have to do with the Alliance

[pulsar minnow]

It’s almost as if both factions help each other from time to time when they’re not trying to kill each other

[rain cave]

as in, the alliance is formed of peoples who enabled legion invasions on azeroth

[fathom fulcrum]

oh really?

[pulsar minnow]

Yeah! Crazy right

[rain cave]

Medivh and Azshara painted targets on Azeroth

[fathom fulcrum]

Azshara wasnt a member of the Alliance

[rain cave]

I know

[fathom fulcrum]

Medivh wasnt Medivh at that point either

[rain cave]

but my point is that the only reason the sunwell was corrupted in the first place, was because night elves (highborne) and humans couldn't keep themselves from dealing with the legion

thus causing the orc invasion, then the reason the elves teamed up with human in the 1st wwar

etc etc

[fathom fulcrum]

what?

[rain cave]

as in the races of the alliance are largely the ones responsible for the legions invasion

[fathom fulcrum]

yeah then the Horde commited like 10 war crimes, such as slaughtering civilians and nuking entire city-states

[rain cave]

the horde are largely constructed of victims of the alliances messes

[pulsar minnow]

And the alliance put the horde in internment camps and made them slaves

[fathom fulcrum]

yeah?

cuz they invaded them?

🤔

and slaughtered Stormwind civilians

[pulsar minnow]

Do you know what the blood curse is

[fathom fulcrum]

do you know what happened to Stormwind after 1st war?

also dont drink demon blood maybe idk

skill issue

[rain cave]

the undead are largely people arthas slaughtered
Blood elves are the elves arthas genocided, and the humans ignored/were racist towwards
Orcs were used by the legion after highborne/night elves taunted sargeras to the planet
Trolls were genocided by high elves and humans
Tauren seems aight ngl

but also even the draenei are responsible for the orcs in a weird way

[fathom fulcrum]

according to WoD trailer it seems like Grommash made that decision himself

[pulsar minnow]

WoD is specifically an alternate timeline

[rain cave]

you do realize his title is Kiljaden the DECEIVER

and yeah he also had garrosh telling him it was a trap

hindsight 20/20

[fathom fulcrum]

the trailer is nearly identical

till Grommash spills the drink

[rain cave]

it's not nearly identical

the dark portal is already being built in WoD time line before the fel blood is being drunk

[fathom fulcrum]

whatever

words dont mean anything i guess

[rain cave]

do you think garrosh would have said yes to the fel blood if guldan had given him the full symptoms and side effects

[fathom fulcrum]

blood elves are traitors, next?

"humans ignored"

fucking died to the scourge

[rain cave]

and what about that human captain who tried to send kaelthas to his death

and was just being racist towards him

[fathom fulcrum]

based

Kael'thas evil

pretty sure the "blood" elves werent even members of the Alliance when the scourge invasion happened

[remote shuttle]

I think “not all humans are good people” isn’t a grand stance?
But idunno this argument has zero nuance.

[rain cave]

blood elves didn't exist until after the scourge invasion

that's what the name is

[fathom fulcrum]

bro like...

"blood"

[rain cave]

well yeah I'm trying to prove how silly of a statement "there wouldn't be a sunwell without the alliance" is

[fathom fulcrum]

yeah, there would not be one

[remote shuttle]

I mean, right now there wouldn’t be.

[rain cave]

why?

[remote shuttle]

Literally event of tbc.

[rain cave]

you mean when both factions worked together to help cleanse the sunwell?

[fathom fulcrum]

lol

[remote shuttle]

The Draenei and the blood elves retook the Isle of Quel’danas. The alliance raided the Sunwell plataeu. Velen put the heart of m’uru in it to rekindle it.

And that’s just the facts.

[fathom fulcrum]

no Velen = no Sunwell

[rain cave]

because of a legion invasion that was kicked off because of events that the draenei, humans, elves all kind of started

[fathom fulcrum]

Liadrin just summoned the Alliance in Midnight btw

[rain cave]

not specifically the alliance

[remote shuttle]

The current Sunwell’s existence as a Light imbued Sunwell and the events surrounding it.

[fathom fulcrum]

you wont believe who is the leader of Army of the Light

[remote shuttle]

It would be nice to have some acknowledgement.

[fathom fulcrum]

surely it isnt the leader of the Alliance

[remote shuttle]

They aren’t the Alliance.

[fathom fulcrum]

Army of the Light are Alliance

[remote shuttle]

It’s the Vanguard. And they’re neutral with many within.

[rain cave]

aren't they the tyrguard

or did they get forgotten

[fathom fulcrum]

it was confirmed she summoned the Army of the Light by the devs...

[remote shuttle]

Dude,update your info.

[fathom fulcrum]

send me the updated info then

[remote shuttle]

Alpha is out, there is no need to be behind.

Wowhead page: vanguard of light. Most recent on the Sunwell attack.

Tyrguard are included in cameos at the Sunwell attack.

[rain cave]

but yeah my larger point is that it feels a bit silly to give alliance full credit for the sunwell being around when they're also partly to blame for why it's needed saving historically xD

[remote shuttle]

Full credit? No. Lion share maybe.

[rain cave]

ayy

good pun

[remote shuttle]

Chronicle literally says alliance Sunwell, horde magister’s terrace.

As well as the forces of the shattered sun?

[rain cave]

TiTaNs PeRsPeCtIvE

[fathom fulcrum]

Tyr's guard are like 4 people bruh

[remote shuttle]

Which; you can decide which faction they are given they defended Theramore and Garrosh bombed the Shattered Sun troops.

[fathom fulcrum]

unless u mean Silver Hand, but thats also Alliance

Vanguard is just paladins and priests from what i read... also it didnt exist till Midnight

We also have Turalyon, her husband, who will be an important part of Midnight as a representative of the light. So at the very end of the cinematic there when we see the light coming uh in response to Liadrin's prayer, the Army of Light has arrived and so have the players. We also will be called by the light to come and join that battle.

its the Alliance and players

[rain cave]

And the players are also the horde :P

So are the blood elves

[tulip sun]

Army of the Light are alliance and make up part of the Vanguard

Maybe that's the confusion

[austere gazelle]

Na Army of the Light is not the " Army of the Light " we know. Its the one we know + several other light defenders from every faction and stuff. Its not THE army of the Light but the Armies of the Light*

There are even the Arathi of Hallowfall

[deep pawn]

The Armies of the Light thing has kinda flopped to me.

Like why aren't there Arathi from the main empire?

Why not more Draenei?

If Lothraxion is there the range is pretty damn big

Plus we have the cinematic which stupidly only showed humans showing.

[upper pasture]

Idk, I’m still under the assumption that the AoL knows this isn’t the final battle just the pregame if you will and we could see the full force coming in 12.1 or 12.2

[deep pawn]

If that's the case then they still could have presented this all better lol

Like yeah 12.2 is probably us finally ending Xal's threat with help

[rain cave]

I mean could also be that it’s all the Azeroth touched ones being summoned

[deep pawn]

but sometimes withholding info isn't preparing for a twist, it's just leaving things aimless.

[uncut vault]

Questing makes it very clear this is specifically the Light's doing

[rain cave]

Sun well isn’t just pure light, it’s similar to beledar in terms of being related to the world souls energy

Alternatively you could say the naaru in it summoned the aol

[deep pawn]

I've said before, if I don't know EXACTLY what Xal's goal is by the end of levelling, then I'll consider that a major storytelling fail.

[rain cave]

Hence why it summoned both forces it would have known from tbc as well as the actual army of the light

[rain cave]

At most the raid ig

[deep pawn]

I'm so tired of the big bad doing stuff without us knowing why.

Hate Garrosh all you want, but at least his plan was freaking clear.

[rain cave]

TWW has a funny thing where end of nerubar doesn’t tease anything, the quests are more xal

But then undermine just appears

But then in undermine we had the opposite thing, we were literally shown the next patches premise

[deep pawn]

TWW's disjointedness comes down to the conversion into the saga.

11.0 was written before the direction change.

[uncut vault]

Nerubar gave us Xal's motive, more or less, Harandar's little prophecy expands on that a bit

given Voidstorm is an entire void zone and Xal has been largely absent from leveling thus far, I think its safe to say she's a major focus there

[deep pawn]

But that's separate from Xal being another villain with a vauge goal with flimsy motivations like the Jailer.

[upper pasture]

TWW is and always will be the quest “to get the thing uber powerful thing from Xal and the fallout from that”

[deep pawn]

"Power to survive" is meaningless if you don't tell us what the hell she's scared of that she needs that much power for. 😄

If your goal is to be a god, gnats like Alleria should really be beneath you after coming in control of a void lord.

[pulsar minnow]

What’s the Harandar prophecy if you don’t mind me asking? Haven’t seen anything on it

[uncut vault]

I dont have the image on hand, but they basically explain that the Haranir have known about literally everything that's happened in Warcraft

[deep pawn]

Maybe Xal hating Alleria is supposed to be something that makes her relatable.

[uncut vault]

and theyve not done anything because the end of the prophecy is that change will come when the "throne of darkness" is up for grabs

[pulsar minnow]

Gotcha. Thanks!

[uncut vault]

Here we go

I really hope it is the intent that the haranir are useless and not actually doing anything with all their pompous prophetic knowledge

otherwise whoo boy are they such a mess of a race lol

[deep pawn]

The first ones knew all about Zovaal's betrayal and consumption of untold number of mortal souls and all they did was leave some waygates

Aman'thul has his True Timeline with untold suffering.

Blizzard is full of prophecy where no one does anything.

[upper pasture]

That’s the thing with prophectic knowledge tho right? Like they are literally ingrained to not act until the prophesied moment because anything beforehand could be considered wasted effort or spoil the true moment

It would be funny if the “moment” comes and they are literally useless

[uncut vault]

Im kind of hoping they do that for the Arathi Empire too tbh

[pulsar minnow]

It would be an interesting subversion if after living in Harandar for so long and being so protective that they end up not being the ones to help in that moment- and in actuality their entire purpose was to guide the players to Harandar

[uncut vault]

Midnight is already way too packed with plot to include them in a satisfying way

[deep pawn]

If the Light is that bad at prophecy again, oof

[uncut vault]

it would be way more fun if the Arathi arrive after their prophetic Renilash is already over

but they're so insistent that they need to be the holy army to beat back the darkness that they make an enemy of us

[deep pawn]

Cause we already had that with Xe'ra's nat 1 persuasion check.

I still feel if the Arathi Emperor doesn't show his face here that Blizzard really should have rewrote some of their prophecies they included in 11.0

Like they should have known what the finale of midnight looked like by the time 11.0 released.

[upper pasture]

This is probably it, tbh after they arrive and we saved the day and they see all the things we are willing to do to save ourselves they might look at us in horror and decide it’s time to purge

[pulsar minnow]

Could also maybe be the light does a hostile takeover of the Arathi.

Say we beat back the void, the light then starts encroaching and we beat them back too.

So then the Light tells the emperor “hey those people on the other side of Azeroth are evil kill em”

Worded better- Could be setup for a future expansion with the Light being salty it couldn’t usurp the Void

[upper pasture]

Heck we will have void DHs which in their eyes are just as evil so…

[pulsar minnow]

One thing I really am curious about is how An’she is going to fit into all of this. We know Tauren mythology is gonna be explored in the last Titan- so are they gonna make An’she evil? Is he gonna have a light pantheon or something? Does he agree with the light’s zealotry?

Also the mystery they’re setting up with Arator in how the light manifests as fire in his case

[deep pawn]

I feel like we have to have the Empire's original sin revealed before the end of Midnight

[uncut vault]

This is part of why I think its better to push the Arathi plot for later

Midnight just has too much to tell already

[pulsar minnow]

I fully agree

[uncut vault]

especially with how much smaller xpacs are now compared to Legion/BfA

[pulsar minnow]

I also think Arathi are deserving of their own entire expansion

They seem to me like the intro/segue to the next chapter of Warcraft

[clear apex]

Id love to see Arathi happen after these next 2 expac

[pulsar minnow]

My wishlist is either Arathi or World Revamp- but idk if they’ll do that since they want to do smaller segments over time like in midnight (which is great I don’t mind tbh)

[clear apex]

Unless blizzard pulls a ff14 and we just go on vacation

[elfin eagle]

I have a question

I see a lot of complaints about inconsistencies: but how is midnight like actually

Just story/fun wise

[clear apex]

Well it's not fully out yet so that's tbd overall

[upper pasture]

Yeah, I’d say since everything isn’t out yet it’s hard to tell, a lot of the “fun” stuff isn’t there yet

[uncut vault]

I've only fully done the intro + Eversong

but so far, very strong

[upper pasture]

And there’s gonna be a lot more negative feedback because of the push back of addons

[uncut vault]

there's a much more cohesive base story being told than even TWW

Eversong is almost entirely a prologue zone, setting up the other four zone plots

[clear apex]

Will the beta start soon after alpha ends (cause I'm shilling for the epic edition)

[upper pasture]

I really hope prey is fun

🫣

[clear apex]

Me too. It seems like a fun concept

[pulsar minnow]

I hope it works out like delves

As in being the “thing that might be shit”

[elfin eagle]

Ah this is what I want to hear

[pulsar minnow]

Also sorry but I never really thought about it- is Voidstorm a max level or questing zone?

I know we follow arator for part of the leveling process, does it outright replace the “4th zone?”

[elfin eagle]

I’ve sort of compartmentalized (11.0 + 11.1) into its own seperate thing

[clear apex]

Believe void is max

Like how suramar was and so on

[elfin eagle]

And I’ve started to treat 11.2 as the real start to this whole thing and by doing it that way it’s a little easier to follow along

But again this entire saga depends on 12.1 I feel

Like if 12.1 is lackluster it’ll look very rough

[pulsar minnow]

Man I hope so I’ve really missed that

[uncut vault]

bit of both

[upper pasture]

It sounds max level? Right it’s that PvP/pve zone

[deep pawn]

I think the pacing of the zone is funky if they literally give you the off ramp to Haradnar before finishing Eversong.

[clear apex]

SM/ES woods, then harandar, trolls and arator, then you go to void, afaik

[uncut vault]

its the conclusion of leveling story, compared to a separate zone plot ala Suramar

but Eversong/Arator/Harandar/Zul'aman will easily get you to 90 before even reaching it

[deep pawn]

They likely will nerf that. They know players don't like hitting level cap long before the finish they last zone.

[clear apex]

I hit 80 in tww as soon as i reached hallowfall, doing side quests really helped

[deep pawn]

I would expect the MSQ to not be enough to ding you like TWW's was.

[clear apex]

Id prefer to see not reaching 90 until voidstorm

[upper pasture]

MSQ didn’t hit you to 80 at launch?

Oh, I see

[deep pawn]

Not for me? I had to go do a dungeon and some side quests

[clear apex]

Tww felt too fast, but that's just me. Df was fast as well

[uncut vault]

TWW's MSQ was significantly shorter than any other xpac

[clear apex]

Did all of waking shore and centaur, hit 70 in azure

[uncut vault]

Midnight's feels closer to DF/Shadowlands in length, thankfully

[clear apex]

Good

I'm sure they'll timegate haranir, but I'm going to do all i can as fast as i can to get them

[upper pasture]

Yes, that’s what I’m saying lol, I thought you were saying it did lol

I’m pretty sure I was 78 and at some point I had to go back and do some side quest to finish the campaign too

[pulsar minnow]

I really hope midnight’s msq doesn’t resolve itself in the first patch.

Anduins arc being completed in the first patch and then leaving him on a rock for the rest of the expansion didn’t feel that good

[uncut vault]

Silvermoon has a lot of stuff to do, before you even leave past the zone intro for the main plot of Eversong lol

[deep pawn]

See, it felt like crap hitting level cap starting at Revendreth and having to do an ENTIRE zone at level cap just cause I stupidly did some side quests in Bastion.

[uncut vault]

about half of the Eversong side quests are entirely in Silvermoon

Why though? You're doing the story either way

I'd rather do it with my max level kit than leveling kit

[deep pawn]

it doesn't feel as good when all you're getting from it is gold

TWW's levelling experience also allowed the side quests to be really really good for just story or alts.

[pulsar minnow]

I honestly prefer it with the current format because once I hit max on my alts I can just skip the rest of the story and go straight to max level stuff

Like if I spend 5 hours to hit level 90 then go spend another hour to finish voidstorm that’s fine- I’m just playing through the story.

But on my alts once I’m done leveling I want to go straight into content

[deep pawn]

I feel like Blizzard got plenty of data that they lost people who hit level cap before finishing the Shadowlands story and they just stopped.

Or players really sped up not reading quests and missed too much

Like that was the reason I was told for why they decided to make most of TWW's story "optional" to levelling.

At most you should hit level cap with less than half the final zone to go if they really want to make the final dungeon feel like you're at your peak.

FF14 barely gets away with the final levelling zone being level cap I feel and that's an actual story game.

[deep pawn]

I'm officially mad now that Blizzard didn't have the foresight to test a phase transition on PTR.

I at least thought I'd get to check my vaults before I had to go to work.

[dense plover]

that stuff is never enabled on ptr

[deep pawn]

eh?

I'm saying Blizzard didn't test a phase transition for remix on the PTR

And now it's borked the game up for an entire day when it's not a patch day

This type of downtime should be reserved for patches

not what should be flipping a switch

[upper pasture]

I mean, it’s a pseudo patch day, things are being added to remix

And the rest of the turbo event is being enabled

[deep pawn]

enabling a quest and a vendor that's already in the files and is a repeat from last season usually doesn't break stuff.

[lavish raptor]

I feel they should have tested the phase transitions in Lemix ptr too

[deep pawn]

They didn't test the phase transitions for Lemix and it's obviously biting them in the butt now

[lavish raptor]

(people could already get into Kara and Nighthold early in ptr so like)

[deep pawn]

its either that or whatever changes they're trying to do for dps and healers.

[dense plover]

they did test that

it took a while

because they have to make sure they ONLY enable specific content

also its an actual patch

the client updated

[deep pawn]

the client updates constantly, but unless we're suddenly in 11.2.6 it's not a PATCH

[deep pawn]

Did they? I only ever remember them testing p1 content for Lemix

server list finally available so this should be the last hour, still disappointing for a non "patch day"

[dense plover]

again, effectively a patch

both client and servers were actually patched

my guess is they are maybe adding a new ability/passive for healers/dps to buff them only in remix

[deep pawn]

Whatever you say, this time of downtime should be reserved for full content patches.

Even if it's a patch, my client patches constantly these days for the most random updates. Those don't all come with triple maintenance

finally

[upper pasture]

It’s almost as if, majority of patches and hotfixes go off without a hitch and you only notice when they don’t

[deep pawn]

Hah, lost 100k bronze cause midnights reins weren't flagged to be refunded

Exemplifies my luck today that I accidentally buy the one mount that isn't refundable

[quartz lintel]

honey, wake up: new emote incoming for midnight:

each races have this animation

[deep pawn]

Give us the FF14 head nod haha

[glass fulcrum]

its 2025 and you still can't hold bows / guns on the ready like npcs have since legion (maybe even WoD)

[rain cave]

I think dungeon quests are bugged on legion remix rn

got2 quests,to kill god king skovald, and do hall of valor

completed hall but didn't get the god king credit

then got 2 quests to do assasult of violet hold , only one of them counted

[austere gazelle]

An'she is supposedly in the life realm with his sister according to what we saw in the Cosmology charts , but all bets are on. We also have Ansh'uul now, so 🤷

[pulsar minnow]

An’she is a light god

[austere gazelle]

Being a Light god and being part of the Light plane are two different things.

Elune is a light godess, but she is part of the life realm.

Same for An'she

[pulsar minnow]

Elune isn’t really a light goddess?

She’s very closely aligned with life. Her niche is cosmic life

[austere gazelle]

She is revered as a light godess and give lights power to her priestess, same for An'she with the Paladin

they are twins, they work the same

[pulsar minnow]

Yeah but we know her priestesses aren’t really using holy light

[rain cave]

debateable

[pulsar minnow]

It’s just for gameplay purposes

[rain cave]

I personally think Elune is the closest thing to the first ones we have, a combination of light, arcane and death

[austere gazelle]

here we can see the sun and the moon on top of each others

[pulsar minnow]

An’she is very explicitly name dropped in things regarding the light.

The entire hero talent tree Herald of the Sun is based entirely around him

[rain cave]

and her presence in the life realm is more of a political marriage

[austere gazelle]

And if the mythos is true, An'she is forced to be by Elune's side

[rain cave]

specifically, that is the sun eclipsing the moon

and death is the moon eclipsing the sun

in that same image

Elune has a lot of ties to more deathly magic, her powers themselves are not life

[pulsar minnow]

I mean her powers are astral

[rain cave]

the 3 kinds of magic she has shown explicit connections to in terms of her own ability are light, arcane and death

when it comes to life she is always adjacent to it but seperate

[austere gazelle]

Well if you look at the mythos of the Taurens, both Mu'sha and An'she doesnt have clear defined Light or Shadow power. They rules over elemental stuff

Fire Earth Sea, sky etc

[rain cave]

after all they are called balance druids for a reason

elune is death in life, winter queen is life in death

Elune culls, WQ restores using that cull

[austere gazelle]

Anyway we know Elune use Life, light, shadow ( void ) , nature, and arcane ( not seen fel for the moment )

[rain cave]

incorrect, we have not seen her use void or life magic

we have seen death, arcane and light however

[austere gazelle]

Life magic ? With her being tied to druid and nature ?

Not void ? The Night warrior ?

[pulsar minnow]

The night warrior isn’t void haha

It’s just emo astral magic

[rain cave]

night warrior is death

[pulsar minnow]

That’s not rlly confirmed tho

[rain cave]

not all druids are elune based

only balance druids are

and they don't use life magic for their elune powers

[austere gazelle]

It is, she was doing shadow and void spell, and the way she was craving and it was eating her from inside is clearly " void " aligned

[rain cave]

no?

none of the spell effects indicate void at all

[austere gazelle]

when she fought nathanos on the darkshore beach ? 😮

[rain cave]

Tyrande literally uses the same vfx as maw death magic when you find her

and night warriors are intrinsically connected to ardenweald

[austere gazelle]

no ? We had one in Revendreth

[rain cave]

backs my point up more

connected to death

[pulsar minnow]

I think we’re looking too far into it

Vfx doesn’t always mean something most of the time it’s just “what spell matches the color”

[rain cave]

the triangle of order

the triangle of elune

sun eclipsing the moon in life, the moon present in death

meanwhile the life section is ardenweald creatures and trees, demonstrating that ardenweald is the representation of life in death

and that idea is communicated pretty explicitly through its campaign as well as the emerald dream stuff we got in DF

[quartz lintel]

I was replaying the SL campaign, and I realized something: Don't you think that the entire realm, whether it's its pantheon, the logic of the 4 covenants, etc., is like GIGA too orderly?

I really felt like I was walking around in something that was ordered by the titans rather than a unique thing.

[austere gazelle]

Order is / was a force before the Titans, so that Order had an hand in the creation of the cosmos is not something too strange

Thing is, I'm wondering if Aman'thul, being the master of time , did not temper with things that were made before him by going back in time in the era of the First Ones and decided to piss on everything to mark his territory somehow

After all, we know that Chromie managed to go back in time before the Aspect where even Aspects so that's a thing.

[pulsar minnow]

Yep. Game acknowledges this too in 11.2.7 with the Sylvanas questline

Don’t think it’s a spoiler exactly because you can only see this dialogue as a Sylvanas loyalist and I don’t think there are too many of those

But yeah she basically confirms that the Shadowlands doesn’t reflect the true nature of death and rather a more ordered version of it

[quartz lintel]

I see

So Ursoc and Arthas are not really gone

There are somewhere, with Saurfang too

[pulsar minnow]

Uh we got no idea about that

Saurfang is fine we have that confirmed

He’s in some realm of the shadowlands with his wife and son

He got a “happy” ending

[clear apex]

I do think Arthas got shredded out of existence

[pulsar minnow]

I pray they retcon it such a lame ending for him

[autumn dagger]

I liked that ending for him

[worn crown]

No, the Sylv quote about Shadowlands seeming to be "too ordered" is the same for all players
The Wowhead article by Portergauge clearly shows that

And expanding about it, some people think it means the "first ones" and "titans" are the same, but I do think it will be way more profound than that
We see Blizz is not shy to touch SL lore, and Metzen, just by the overall info we got on Midnight alpha, seems willing to adds a bunch of twists and turns on previous lore

About Arthas his ending on SL was perfect
In fact, I never got why he has so many fans
He was just a well worn fallen hero trope in WC III and TFT
Not a tragic hero, but a fallen hero
Because the only "tragedy", so to speak, was his stubbornness to listen to the reasoning of his friends even when he was still "on the light side"

And Sylvanas was the person he wronged the most
I know a lot of people will suddenly go "Jaina!", "Uther!" and such
But the special kind of hell Sylvanas went through because of Arthas is unique - also considering she was not even present in his life before, unlike Jaina or Uther
Sylvanas was truly defending her homeland, unlike Arthas, who embraced madness to "defend" Lordaeron

[pulsar minnow]

least obvious ragebait lol - Arthas is one of the most beloved characters in this game- to bring him back into the story after his perfect ending in Wrath only to do jack all with him and then say he deserves to be forgotten? Its definitely not good. Especially considering Uther's arc in Bastion revolved around the guilt he felt of throwing Arthas into the Maw

He has fans because we the players saw the decisions he made and why he made them, and how badly he wanted to do right but his obvious character flaws got in the way

That resulted in him picking up frostmourne and going full evil

It was also an early case in modern media of a protagonist of a game going evil and having to play through all of that

Shadowlands undeniably did his character dirty- as it did a lot of the game's lore which is thankfully beginning to be amended

[uncut vault]

What about the fans who love him because he was an arrogant dick who went down exactly the path his kind of personality would lead, though? How would they feel if Arthas came back and was suddenly treated as an uwu good boy just corrupted by a sword?

[pulsar minnow]

oh I don't think he deserved redemption lol

[uncut vault]

Or how would fans of his tragedy feel if he was written like his portrayal in more recent books, where he's so avidly horrible they have the implication of SA to Sylvanas' corpse by his minions?

There was no way to use Arthas as an actual character in Shadowlands, it would have pissed off one half of his fanbase with wildly different interpretations of his tragedy

choosing to not use him directly was one of the few moments of restraint they had in Shadowlands

they left him up to interpretation

[pulsar minnow]

My problem with arthas' lack of inclusion was that it basically made Uther's arc pointless and they never went further with it

Uther dropped him in the Maw - his best friend. And upon finding what remained of him... nothing

No exploration of his guilt no nothing

[uncut vault]

The point of his arc was to become someone who could give Sylvanas what nobody else in the story would do without being wildly OOC

he failed Arthas, he has an entire questline exploring that guilt in 9.1 lol

[pulsar minnow]

Yeah, but the aftermath is what bothers me. His arc felt incomplete with Arthas- Jaina too

I personally would've liked Uther, Jaina, and Calia having a questline exploring their collective grief over the guy - for all the good and the overwhelming bad he did.

[uncut vault]

His arc was admitting what he did was wrong, and that he didn't do as much as he could to support Arthas even in life

that concludes with him and Jaina reuniting in 9.1, and admitting their love for what he once was even after everything

the continuation is him offering to Sylvanas what he denied Arthas

[pulsar minnow]

well yeah but I mean like an actual questline not a stay a while and listen

[uncut vault]

What would having that as a whole questline add?

Jaina already had her questline of exploring that grief in BfA

Uther got that questline in the same patch

[pulsar minnow]

Personally I just feel that stuffing the dialogue away in a dialogue box or in a stay a while and listen scene feels sort of hollow. I think an actual questline would've done his character, and those around him more justice. Or- honestly? Seeing Arthas maybe do something good for once- have uther save his soul and Arthas-not redeeming himself, but sacrifices his soul to save Anduin or just something more than what we got. Just knowing the only significance he really had in that story is that he got tossed into the maw and disenchanted feels really anticlimactic

[uncut vault]

So again: how would people who saw his ultimate end as someone who had abandoned all morality and goodness out of sunk-cost fallacy feel about that?

because that idea would totally spit on that

Or if Arthas had shown up and acted as unrepentant as Garrosh, to symbolize how someone can continuously refuse their chances at redemption like he did in life, would you have found that satisfactory as a character appearance?

[pulsar minnow]

Anything more than just a whisp would've worked for me tbh

I think the idea that Arthas is just this completely evil monster just isn't true. He's not a good guy- but Frostmourne and the helm of Domination is what truly made him evil. Some small part- some of the good in him was still in there deep down as evidenced by the locket- and that was never explored at all.

[uncut vault]

That's kind of my point: that's your interpretation

other people have wildly different ones

any use of Arthas would have caused people to be pissed about how he was ruined, for the sake of what would essentially be a cheap marketing grab to bring him back after his story fully ended with Wrath

[pulsar minnow]

I mean they kind of already broke it by literally putting Arthas in the marketing

[clear apex]

They showed that even Sylvanas wasnt totally evil, that she was a bystander within herself while the dominated part was doing bad shit

I think Arthas is the same case

[uncut vault]

That's the opposite of what they showed for her lol

[clear apex]

Is anduin then evil?

[uncut vault]

she says verbatim, "the jailer did not control me" and took full responsibility for her actions

Anduin was dominated, Arthas and Sylvanas were not

[clear apex]

she showed remorse

which an absolutely evil person wouldnt do

[uncut vault]

Yes, the whole point is that Arthas could have shown that same remorse if given the chance

or he could have been unrepentant

we'll never know

that's the tragedy

he was denied that by Uther, by the Jailer

[clear apex]

idk i always took his death at the end of icc as 'thank fuck that's over i was tired of this"

i still think that whole expansion was a train wreck and i wish theyd tell us it was a fever dream and we'd never have to think of it again

or that it's not the 'real' death

[pulsar minnow]

Well Sylvanas and Arthas are very different. Arthas had the helm and frostmourne. Bolvar had to fight against the helm's influence and slipped a few times too

[uncut vault]

Except what if you're someone who likes the interpretation from Rise of the Lich King

where there was no influence in Arthas' head with the helm, only him?

now him coming back and being just someone influenced by evil jailer all along spits on that

The whole novel makes it very explicitly that the idea of Arthas losing all his free will to the Lich King was his own cope, he was making all of those choices of his own volition and using it as a scapegoat so he didn't have to think about it

[pulsar minnow]

you're mistaking me that I think Arthas would be a perfect goody-two-shoes without the helm. He's still the guy that did the Culling of Stratholme, burned boats to keep soldiers in northerend, abandoned his friend to chase a dreadlord etc.. etc...

[uncut vault]

But again, what about the people who do think that, of which there are many?

bringing him back and showing that he was to blame for a lot of his own actions spits on their idea of Arthas

no matter how you use him, you've made a massive portion of people mad that he was ruined

[pulsar minnow]

And they still made a massive portion of people mad that he was ruined by not doing anything with him at the end

[uncut vault]

the only difference is, the way they did use him leaves all of his various interpretations as valid possibilities

[pulsar minnow]

Like inaction is just as bad as any alternative

[uncut vault]

except it's not, because it doesn't taint his previous story at all

blizzard went out of their way to say Arthas was never influenced by the Jailer, that all of his actions under both Nerzhul and himself as Lich King were counter to the Jailer's goals

[pulsar minnow]

doesn't taint his previous story but instead tacks on a more disappointing ending that honestly never should have existed

[uncut vault]

well the good thing is, you can 100% ignore it now and still enjoy Arthas' story as-is

[pulsar minnow]

Also danuser did say his interpretation was that arthas was just full evil with or without the helm

[uncut vault]

whereas if he had come back, he would have a definitive interpretation in the narrative

[uncut vault]

Yes, which did not bleed into the story whatsoever

because they had the restraint to not define that interpretation in the narrative

and instead use the impact of Arthas as the plot point

[pulsar minnow]

Well- actually I do feel that interpretation bled in. I mean... Sylvanas' whole speech did really give the impression of the story saying "Hey this guy sucked lets forget he ever existed because he was just that evil" - when again that locket back from Wrath suggests a whole other side of his character we just never got to see whatsoever. And that's where I'm dissappointed. I wanted to see that explored especially for a charater as iconic as he was

[uncut vault]

that's not what it suggested lol

[rain cave]

Arthas coming back in SL should have been a bit like how garrosh was handled

[uncut vault]

she literally admits to the worst person in her life that they were the same

the difference is: she's been given the chance to change, he's an inch away from vanishing

[rain cave]

so stubborn he ends up helping us, not liking how he was used. But also still the dick undearneath

culling of stratholme was uncorrupted arthas btw

and you can argue it was a "good" thing but the way he took in the opinions of jaina and uther on the matter is whack

he literally turned his back on friends, arguably family. Instead of trying to atleast find another way

[pulsar minnow]

This - literally coulda just been Arthas using his soul to open the door further into Zereth Mortis to chase Zovaal - a "screw you for the hand you had in ruining my life"

[rain cave]

seems a bit of a weird connection to me

[uncut vault]

What does that add to the character of Arthas beyond "POG ITS ARTHAS!!!" as a cinematic moment?

[pulsar minnow]

im just throwing stuff out there i made it up in 3 seconds

[rain cave]

makes more sense to me if we got a whole chapter trying to find arthas's soul with jaina, uther, thinking it was just the sword that made him bad

and when they do find him, it's nice for a bit. but he quickly falls back into bad habits

[pulsar minnow]

Would've been cool if Jaina pulled out the locket with Uther and asked him if he thought he was still in there somewhere as a lead in

[deep pawn]

I'm fine with how Arthas's story ended. One of the worst murderers Azeroth had and got spent up like the tool he was. He deserved to flicker out.

[pulsar minnow]

Well they already did it in the Uther cinematic- he was used as a marketing device already so a hype moment at the end of shadowlands definitely would've helped... especially knowing how bad that ending was with Zovaal

[rain cave]

that's my main issue, his story and teasing was used to sell the expansion but he wasn't in it

[deep pawn]

Throwing him into the Maw was Uther's sin. Arthas's story was already done.

[pulsar minnow]

And that's the corner they dug himself into using him in the Uther cinematic. They want to tell this Uther story (which I think was really cool) but in order to do it you gotta show Arthas' face. Also I do wonder if this end to Arthas would've felt better if the rest of the expansion's story wasn't so... bad

[deep pawn]

I liked the reveal that darkness was just a Kyrian's wings

[pulsar minnow]

yeah that whole cinematic was so well done

[dense plover]

new alpha internal - new build today or tomorrow

[uncut vault]

Alpha realms are down now too, I think?

So probably today

[dense plover]

neato

hopefully they fix horde housing

also voidstorm this week right?

i didnt finish harandar

server instability totally fucked me

[deep pawn]

Blizzard told addon devs they wanted build today

[uncut vault]

Yep, then max level testing next week

Im excited for Arcantina

[dense plover]

we still know nothing about it

i wanna know about that and prey

do we get prey testing this week or next?

[uncut vault]

Also I’m praying that Quel’danas and eversong are open this week still lol, because it was a struggle to do eversong this week when I couldn’t reach the sunwell for more than 4 seconds + all the lag

[uncut vault]

Next week

[dense plover]

ah

[uncut vault]

Not sure how they expect to test the battleground when I’ve never even seen 40 people online on alpha at any given time lol

Let alone pvpers

[dense plover]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

invite a bunch of pvpers for this weeks build?

[lavish raptor]

my guess is that streamers will host events

And people love being in streamer events

[upper pasture]

isn't it 40 v 40 too? so not only have you not seen one team online at once you'd need double that lol

AND all of them to be queing for the bg lol maybe this will be a bigger invite wave

[tulip sun]

Is the voidspire gonna be up this week?

[lavish raptor]

Maybe itll be a whole army of follower npcs

Captain Garrison

[deep pawn]

no

[tulip sun]

I thought it was...rip

[upper pasture]

that would be a weird way to test player feedback and behavior in the new bg

[tulip sun]

Was excited

Are they repeating a zone already?

Oh im confusing the names

Voidstorm is the zone name

[dense plover]

servers are back, build

[deep pawn]

hopefully all remaining missing talents

[dense plover]

somehow, still no build

[deep pawn]

it went on vendor really late

it might be down til tomorrow

[dense plover]

yeah

[deep pawn]

we're at end of day

[dense plover]

they might want it to be more stable than before

[dense plover]

still technically a chance

we have had 8:30pm builds before

but its definitely less likely

[ionic terrace]

build out

[tulip sun]

Oooooh

[upper pasture]

they ARE testing voidstorm this week

[dense plover]

housing is disabled

[dense plover]

we knew that

thats what was in phase 4

[upper pasture]

somebody eariler said no?

[dense plover]

these are nice

[dense plover]

i think that was about voidspire, not voidstorm

[tulip sun]

Eager to see the story of voidstorm

[dense plover]

odd choice that this cant be modified

wonder what counts as external

i dont make addons, but they have removed some more restrictions

theyre adding delve hall of fame

https://housing.wowdb.com/decor/?added_in_build=12.0.0.63967#grid-view new housing items with this alpha

consider that the DNT Autogen items may or may not be added

[upper pasture]

1000?? D:

[dense plover]

for example, things like this will likely be one item that can be toggled on/off

[ionic terrace]

oooh thats a

[uncut vault]

night elves are just slightly broken

[dense plover]

20 bucks (not really) that this lets you choose where you enter the house or where your teleport takes you

[dense plover]

im not sure its talking about the past tbf

since he shows up again in the new raid

[tulip sun]

Looks totally normal

Im curious about the Horde and Alliance separate bases

[dense plover]

did voidstorm have a map before?

[ionic terrace]

no

[dense plover]

3 of these

also west and east

from questzertauren

[tulip sun]

Interesting

If your able tot ake a peak into each base id be interested to see who's around

[dense plover]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

ill see how stable it is

[tulip sun]

Dont gotta, just curious if your around that area.

[dense plover]

new hut/building in silvermoon near the central area

think this is where the weeklies will be picked up

like the table in dornogal

delve stuff has no prices this build

gravestone cosmetics

valeera quest

my screen had a cool void effect too

might not be able to look at that quest

my game crashed

/sigh

i swear to god

this alpha has been so fucked

we know the name of the 12.1 island now

from the valeera quest

yup cant do it

thats way off in eversong

holy shit so many quests

[tulip sun]

Oooh arcantina quests??
I thought they wouldnt be available yet

[dense plover]

i dont think you can actually do them

because you cant get to some of the places

well uh

maybe i can?

[tulip sun]

Me entirely forgetting about Lorna. I was like "Darius has a kid?"

[dense plover]

missed this

choose is kinda lame tho

ah i see

[upper pasture]

they did this in DF too, with some gardening tools had to do it 4 times on alts to get everything

[dense plover]

you can buy the one you dont get

[tulip sun]

Seems like such fun small quests

[dense plover]

the last one seems to imply that completing these also adds things to the arcantina

[tulip sun]

Huh

[dense plover]

not testing these since that isnt the build focus

[tulip sun]

So lorewise we go back to Draenor for Gamon/Gorgonna's?

[dense plover]

missed one set

weapon rack is back too!

gives you a buff that hides your weapon completely

[pulsar minnow]

Oh cool so Ula’tek confirmed then

[dense plover]

oh neat - the arcantina actually remembers where you entered and returns you there when you leave

probably the same tech as the nostwin stuff

crashed on leaving tho

this is different than earlier builds

looks like theyre changing how housing dyes are made too

you recycle herbs to get pigment

and that can be used to make the dyes

instead of the dye recipes using the herbs directly

this allows for a lot more herb choices for a dye (including across different expacs) without having to create a million dye recipes

yup thats definitely the intention

and crashed again

oh boy - not with all this crashing

umbric has voice acting here

yeah i crashed again

[tulip sun]

Rip

[fathom fulcrum]

https://fxtwitter.com/Wowhead/status/1981167697649086750

Wowhead💙 (@Wowhead)

Healer interrupts are getting a massive change in Midnight, with most interrupts removed and Resto Shamans getting a 30 second cooldown.
︀︀
︀︀#Midnight #Warcraft
︀︀
︀︀www.wowhead.com/news/phase-four-midnight-alpha-development-notes-voidstorm-tier-and-more-378986

**💬 21 🔁 4 ❤️ 121 👁️ 19.0K **

FxTwitter · Oct 23, 2025, 1:16 AM

ayoooooo

[pulsar minnow]

I’m such a fan of this

Thank goodness they’re not letting the nathrezim reports retcon Lothraxion’s character into being just another servant of Denathrius

[fathom fulcrum]

based?!!!!:

[pulsar minnow]

Now just pray we don’t kill him in the dungeon 🤐

[fathom fulcrum]

I hope mr Turalyon wont die :/

something tells me bro will

[dense plover]

we dont

we are helping him do a thing

its a defend lothraxion thing

[pulsar minnow]

oh great, thank goodness

[uncut vault]

Is the dungeon journal outdated then?

[dense plover]

oh they changed it

alpha one didnt have a real description

it just said "scenario where you defend lothraxion"

that was literally the entire thing XD

[upper pasture]

maybe we are beating some sense into him?

[dense plover]

he's in the key art - i dont see us killing him

[full void]

soo basically lohthraxion is just being stupid aand risking blowing up half the region, thats real smart

[lone mantle]

It honestly doesn’t make sense that we’re helping Lothraxion in the first place, especially since it was already hinted in Shadowlands in the in-game book ‘Enemy Infiltration – Preface’ that he might be a traitor.

[tropic trail]

Yea but mortals don’t read books 📚 they only kill stuff and loot items 😅

[pulsar minnow]

Well he acknowledges the book there but reaffirms he’s solely loyal to the light above all

[plain violet]

And that's very quite possible he is solely loyal to the Light.

[agile token]

What's this vendors currency?

[rain cave]

I don’t think people realise a big lore implication here

It confirms the dreadlords actual goal was to defeat the void

Not just sargeras they were working for

I am smelling a very good plot setup between the dreadlords and xal

That is if there’s any truth in his statement

[tulip sun]

I hope not. Now i am not against character death

But dont take Lothraxion from meeeee

[dense plover]

Voidstone marl - resonance crystal equivalent

[tulip sun]

Now we must figure out what ehse regions are

[clear apex]

Region 2 seems like it would likely be west coast

[deep pawn]

You can tell based on the days

Weirdly this would imply they've had to push plans back a week

[clear apex]

Sorry not west coast looking at wrong line

[deep pawn]

I've been working off a Jan 20 prepatch for a while

[clear apex]

Latest date would be Australia? Since they're ahead of us by a bit

3/10 is everywhere else

[clear apex]

the 12 month chinese new year fire horse mount was shown in china

I like it

would really like the pets to be on retail since i dont play classic much

[lavish raptor]

2028 zodiac mount is gonna be so lit

[clear apex]

whats the sign for 2028?

i was sad about the dragon one, i thought it looked bad

[lavish raptor]

Earth monkey

[clear apex]

oh wonder if itll be a rock

the dog is the only one im confused over, and the mouse. Both just look like animals. All others had their elements really incorporated

the dog gets golden feet glow and the mouse got little blue wings

[lavish raptor]

The dog was the first zodiac mount iirc and he does have like rocks

But yeah the rat isnt very uh metal

[clear apex]

Oh yeah ok Shu has rocks on his harness

think if they made him now he would have been a rock. Like how the ox and pig are metal

[lavish raptor]

Yeah it's just design evolution

[deep pawn]

Lucky Yun is amazing

[quartz lintel]

Lmao

apparently, there are "Void" Draenei in the Voidstorm zone

a friend sharing this to me

if someone can explain this and if its real or not

[lavish raptor]

I mean I don't doubt it

[pulsar minnow]

its real

[lavish raptor]

just based off the name, draenei were exiles already for rejecting fel, so that chick got exiled again for swapping to void

[quartz lintel]

you cant be serious AHAHAHAHA

[pulsar minnow]

They're not exactly void draenei either

as in they're just not void draenei at all

[jade basalt]

They're not Void draenei

They're draenei kidnapped from other worlds

[pulsar minnow]

They outright refuse the way of the light, void, and fel

[quartz lintel]

I see

[tulip sun]

Theyre actually not void- they dont use void, fel or light from her commentary

[quartz lintel]

glad to see that

[lavish raptor]

Oh so they're straight edge

[lavish raptor]

[tulip sun]

Here's some diakogue

Dialogue

[quartz lintel]

They are just something similar to the Rangari in the idea

no light paladin, mage or something else

just normal guys with survival talents

[tulip sun]

Tul'amar herself is a mage

[jade basalt]

So no one else expects Lothraxion to one day return alongside the other nathrezim and Denathrius? 👀

Reminder he didn't die in the Shadowlands (nor the Light?) so his death in Voidstorm shouldn't be permanent, meaning he should be able to reform and return one day

[tulip sun]

Its just they seem adverse to the cosmic powers that caused them to be scattered through the cosmos. Which would be fel, light and void.

[quartz lintel]

Okay, just the old philosophy of the Eredar before the Fel and the Light

i guess ?

[tulip sun]

I suppose? They seem like a very neat group

[quartz lintel]

"Nashabor" sound like a zone we will see perhaps during Midnight if the story continue with the Void after its bannish from Quel'Danas after the raid

[pulsar minnow]

im confused what youre talking about honestly. lothraxion wasn't in shadowlands

[jade basalt]

A (non-demonic) nathrezim would normally only die permanently if killed in the Shadowlands, since they come from the Shadowlands

Or in the Light if we assume he's now a Light entity

But he didn't die in the Shadowlands, nor in the Light

He died in Voidstorm

So he should be able to reform and return

[pulsar minnow]

i havent done the questing so i didnt even know lothraxion dies in voidstorm...

so- he dies?

[jade basalt]

It was mentioned by others just above

But yeah, in the dungeon

[rain cave]

what if it was actually just a dreadlord impersonating hi- oh wait nevemind

[ember blaze]

is that actually confirmed

or r ppl just assuming he dies

[tulip sun]

Oh he ded

So badly

[novel zodiac]

so, he was evil?

[tulip sun]

Not evil. Just misguided? Doing whats right in his mind

He was trying to stop the void, but that would've destroyed silvermoon too

[lone mantle]

Yes, his fate is sealed. Every dreadlord is treacherous and vile, it lies in their corrupt nature.

[upper pasture]

I don’t like if they just throw him away as just another dreadlord :/

[uncut vault]

His plot is definitely not about his dreadlord nature

he's clearly very genuine about his loyalty to the Light (or a very good lie from the writing ream lol)

[lone mantle]

No, he is not genuine. He has been monitoring our activities since our visit to Argus.

[dense plover]

you can say whatever you want, but thats clearly not what midnight is both telling and showing us

this isnt really a discussion about his loyalties

theyre extremely clear in the current alpha

[ember blaze]

sad to just slay him

he looks really cool

[dense plover]

then why say anything? just to shout into the void "im wrong, look at me!"?

[tropic trail]

Bro you messaged him first shouting how “correct you are”. Light extremist who tries destroy silver moon defenses, such a good boy yeah sure lol 😂

[uncut vault]

...anyways, yes the zone does a really good job setting up the turn he makes at the end

its not flipping on a switch because "time for light bad"

you see him falling further and further into isolated zealotry because he increasingly thinks he's the only one fulfilling what the Light wills in this horrific voidscape

[lone mantle]

Yes, I greatly appreciate the design of the Voidstorm and Silvermoon; both are exceptionally well designed.

[little hound]

I don't mind if Lothraxion is actually dead. I saw the zone quest playthrough, he's a snarky A-Hole all the way through it Good riddance.

[tropic trail]

Same haha 😆

They don’t say he is a spy but his actions are.. yeah

[little hound]

He was less of a side-character than Locus Walker, least Locus Walker died knowing he saved his planet.

Lothraxion died being a pompous shite.

[tropic trail]

Omg yes! 😂

It’s good they put him to dungeon instead of raid

[little hound]

HAH! He hardly deserves to be a dungeon boss.

So his normal model is like this.

But the version he spawns during the fight named "Fractured Image" has Nathrezim Horns

[dense plover]

i mean, it is a FRACTURED image

so i think its like, a part of him but not ALL of him