beta-ptr-spoilers

[rain cave]

so that seems like a universal win

yeah you don't since historically you've only needed to monthly to get most of the good rewards

[deep pawn]

You can fill the log progress doing content you like.

[rain cave]

that's actually infuriating though because I just assumed it was the challenges rewards me the tenders

[silent urchin]

protip don't leave the siren isle, the npc that sends you back isn't there

[rain cave]

not the bar

[deep pawn]

I feel like the bar explains it. It shows you each sub reward that is 100 tenders

And then the completion reward and last 100 tenders at the end.

[silent urchin]

https://www.wowhead.com/ptr/item=232653/portentous-present new winter veil pet I guess

they were wowhead links, watcher!

ffs

how slow does it need to be

[deep pawn]

Guess they'll be hotfixed in

Or this patch goes live before the end of the anniversary

Actually, can't say that

I recall another January patch that had winter veil rewards and they just didn't show up for an entire year

[rain cave]

me and my friend reminiscing about the old box art and I just realized how sick the rune marks on that belf are lmao

I can pray

[deep pawn]

Nightborne got them

[rain cave]

not like that though

that's like a scar/ mark

[deep pawn]

Love in the air rewards for this patch, but no noblegarden

I'm sticking with February patch

[novel zodiac]

4 months of 10.0.5?

isnt that a lot?

compared to what we had of 10.0.2

[deep pawn]

I mean February 11.1 sorry

This patch is almost certainly the second Tuesday of January

Or first

[dense plover]

am i crazy or is the lunar festival armor a remake of a MoP set?

[deep pawn]

Clockwork stuff doubles down on Undermine I feel

[dense plover]

also retroactively adding a meta achieve for BfA is CRAZY

[deep pawn]

It's Chinese themed so it's gonna look like the MoP epic cloth set

[dense plover]

like how the fuck does a meta legacy achieve work when you couldnt plan for it?

that mount is going to be SO rare

[deep pawn]

I imagine it's all stuff you can go back and do

[dense plover]

isnt the meta a legacy achiever?

like - you cant pursue it?

like - can you still get taivan?

[deep pawn]

No? You can go back an earn Shadowlands and DF right now

[dense plover]

oh

TIL

[deep pawn]

Only thing they removed was the Shadowlands title.

I think the original meta achievement was the Mawwalker title

Now it's a mount

Everyone is gonna wanna be a richmon and get Jani

[dense plover]

too bad no flight

[deep pawn]

Taivan and the Shadeseeker don't fly either

[deep pawn]

Could you imagine if there's actually no 11.2 cause they're introducing a meta mount achievement already?

[silent urchin]

this isn't a full size meta

[deep pawn]

I guess they did add patch metas in DF

Though only 10.1 and 10.2 had those. 10.0 each zone gave a mount

[novel zodiac]

bro if we start to get one less tier per expansion i swear i will quit lol

[deep pawn]

We already did

[novel zodiac]

yeah, but you're talking about one less

[deep pawn]

Legion and BfA each had 4 raids

Yeah, I can't imagine a single major post release patch flying

[rain cave]

lol imagine if they actually just make The worldsoul saga the whole of 11.x

so midnight is 11.3/ 11.4

[novel zodiac]

nah, no way

but technically we're not getting new zones in Midnight and TLT

just "updated" zones

[dense plover]

you sure? looks like it

[upper pasture]

didn't they already refer to midnight and TLT as 12.0/13.0?

[deep pawn]

They already said 12.0 will have 4 zones, 8 dungeons, and a raid

[dense plover]

requires mecha-done

[silent urchin]

I meant the 11.0 meta, the xal not pass one

[rain cave]

no clue just said it as a funny thought

[silent urchin]

bfa one is full size

[deep pawn]

Per Blizzard they consider an expansion only the launch content

Boo, no flying on Siren Isle but thankfully it looks smaller than Korthia

The verticality is concerning

[upper pasture]

it would be a shame if it is smaller than Korthia. Korthia was tiny af

[silent urchin]

there's winter veil stuff in 11.0.7.. so patch date is likely sooner than we think

[deep pawn]

It's not a given

Maybe it was intended for December when they started art but decided to not drop a patch just before Christmas

It has happened before

[novel zodiac]

why tho, it just a .7 zone, we should be gratefull we get anything more than a shitty event like the dream one we got in DF

[silent urchin]

although not sure I trust the dates

[upper pasture]

i'd rather a forbidden reach size island or ZM size map than a korthia sized map

[deep pawn]

That sounds reasonable.

2 weeks of Siren Isle then they drop Plunderstorm and Timeways on us.

[upper pasture]

Korthia was a crappy map size that only felt huge because to do like the end game stuff you had to take a FP to get to the back end. made it feel better than it truly was.

[deep pawn]

10.0.7 will only last 6-8 weeks

10.0.5 is the anomaly in length.

Plunderstorm could last through preseason week

[ember blaze]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/clockwork-transmog-coming-in-patch-11-0-7-349548?utm_source=discord-webhook

[deep pawn]

2/25 could actually be the season 2 launch

[ember blaze]

tinker class confirmed in goblin patch

[dense plover]

fucking called it - i knew they wouldnt have flight

[dense plover]

theyre tagged trading post

[ember blaze]

im just memeing that theyre hinting it

[deep pawn]

I do think the scarecrow and tinker sets are hinting at goblins

[ember blaze]

goblin patch, tinker mog

tinker class confirmed\

[deep pawn]

"you thought introducing a new spec mid expansion caused chaos, just you wait"

[ember blaze]

lets see, hammer and shield - tank spec confirmed. Is that a gun?? Gunslinger confirmed. Gauntlets? Melee spec confirmed

this is a gun right? 💀

[deep pawn]

I'm just so glad Blizzard isn't scared of cute outfits anymore

[dense plover]

looks like rootlands might be before undermine

or orweyna is joining us in undermine

[deep pawn]

Or it's what we all fear and it's undermine raid with no zone.

[silent urchin]

https://www.wowhead.com/ptr/spell=470170/wings-of-the-siren

you can unlock it

[deep pawn]

Oh thank heavens

What the hell month is that on the calendar

Looks like they used the Asia reset day or something

[quartz lintel]

others antorus rogue longcloack variant datamined

There is the cloack for LFR, NM and HM

[deep pawn]

Previous legion long cloaks have been trading post rewards

So 10.1.7 was an 8 week patch and turbulent timeways was 5 weeks inside of that.

That tracks, I felt 10.1.7 was too long given how fluff it was.

10.0.7 felt deeper and I was mad it was shorter

I'm just ready for this m+ season to be over with already so I'm impatient

[silent urchin]

https://www.wowhead.com/ptr/spell=470197/blessing-of-the-seadweller seems there's gonna be quite a bit udnerwater too

[rain cave]

I'm curious what the siren that the island is named after is

like is that just a naga?

or is there something kobyss related potentially?

[deep pawn]

Cyrce

[rain cave]

yeah but what are they in lore

[deep pawn]

It's obviously a play on Circe.

[rain cave]

no I mean race

[deep pawn]

Could be a naga, could be a keeper

Likely they're behind everyone gone

[rain cave]

kobyss could be interesting

[deep pawn]

Circe turned men into animals

Though Circe wasn't a siren

I bet someone is polymorphed though

[novel zodiac]

why?

[worn crown]

Ohhh, Orweyna!!! I SO wanna go to Rootlands in ANY patch number

[pulsar minnow]

undermine probably gonna be a raid at this rate

[uncut vault]

Kul Tiran siren, most likely

[dense plover]

oh neat

thats a new model yeah?

[uncut vault]

Nah that's from BfA

[dense plover]

huh i dont remember it

but i believe you

[deep pawn]

They were like one small area.

Only alliance really dealt with them.

[uncut vault]

basically just for the one jokey Flynn questline

[jade basalt]

The new Dreadwake looking mount has a statue of one on its hull

[glass flicker]

Siren Isle, huh?

The name doesn't invoke major patch vibes.

[dense plover]

because its not?

[glass flicker]

I'm ready to be proven wrong. Cook, Blizzard.

[dense plover]

its not a major patch

its 11.0.7

[glass flicker]

Oh, really? :o

[dense plover]

yes?

its hold-over content

its literally a reworked island expedition location that was never used

this is not 11.1

we will probably find out about that mid-november in the direct

[glass flicker]

Ah! I just noticed it's 11.0.7

My mistake.

[novel zodiac]

lmao

[deep pawn]

So I still can't identify the calendar in the splashscreen

But Orwenya is in a Naga cave

I really hope Lunar Festival and Love is in the Air mogs aren't on the trading post at the same time

[uncut vault]

the story intro for siren's isle basically ignore the naga outside of a single fetch quest

so saving that for Orweyna wouldn't surprise me

[deep pawn]

Naga and Azshara after black blood? Defiling nature somehow?

[glass flicker]

But what if, and hear me out, they aren't acting on Azshara's orders?

It's not like we haven't seen Naga working under different masters, like Illidan's Coilskar.

[deep pawn]

maybe, but given her likely involved soon

[rain cave]

I'm so interested in the kobyss and I feel like others don't really get it

them and the undersea are SUCH an interesting potential plot thread

[pulsar minnow]

theyre such a sick concept

the undersea could be its own entire story and brings up so many questions as to what the hell really is azeroths geometry

[deep pawn]

Eh, Kobyss aren't that exciting to me.

[deep pawn]

wish they had done the plunderstore the first time

also being able to use your own character is a huge upgrade

[rain cave]

there's a whole society in the undersea that was in pitch black

they have necromancy for some reason

they talk about a hunger

[deep pawn]

they're probably just void twisted murlocs

they're meant to be creepy angler fish

[rain cave]

what's interesting is that there is a group of murlocs who know necromancy in 8.2

[deep pawn]

necromancy isn't rare

[rain cave]

I know but it's used as a specific narrative device usually

like why would the kobyss have necromancy? they're a weird underwater race of fish people, they're probably hunters

why would they raise their food into undeath?

what's their connection to the other plot threads going on?

are they related to xalatath? is their hunger the same kind as galakronds?

hence the necromancy magic?

are they minions of a lost old god

or corrupted by the same water that affected galakrond as I said before, in which case is that water affecting the the world tree roots?

they seem to hate beledar, but they've not done anything about it until now?

where does the undersea lead

[deep pawn]

I just don't think they're that deep.

If Roothome has a coast with the dark sea, they'll be fodder

[lone mantle]

[tropic trail]

I have a feeling Azshara will be back 🤔

[rain cave]

I do wonder what the familiar face is

freya perhaps?

[lone mantle]

Another possibility to consider is Orweyna.

[silent urchin]

it's literally a picture of Orweyna so that seems likely

[rain cave]

but she's not an old familiar face that's the thing

she's a new familiar face

[warm topaz]

are you guys doing the Secrets of Azeroth thing?

those are really fun

that's my type of content

they said that Siren Isle will have lots of secrets, i'm excited for that

[upper lantern]

nah, thinking about picking it up today though

[deep pawn]

Pre winter veil patch?

Holy cow

Makes sense if the lunar festival trading post is January

I'm just shocked

[silent urchin]

There's a lot of updated winter veil stuff in it

[deep pawn]

Didn't stop them before. I'd have to dig which ptr it was but there was one in DF or SL that had Christmas updates but still launched in January

The rewards just didn't show up until the following year

But that was a major patch and they didn't want people to have to grind a new rep just before Christmas

[thin warren]

i just love this little thingies, a new isle, new stuff, a bit of campaign, i don't need a giant thing, just this to keep me bussy and 2 months later something new

[silent urchin]

Not just presents, there's also updates to the event

greench fight seems to be redone with a new greench model

[deep pawn]

I still would have gone with a January patch without the splash screen since Blizzard implied the anniversary lasted till the end of 11.0.5

[thin warren]

it's december? since it talks about winter veil

[deep pawn]

if the splash screen is correct

Dec 17th is 8 weeks of 11.0.5 which fits the cadence and it's the day Winter Veil starts

Only issue is 8 weeks after that is February 4th which Plunderstorm isn't over by then.

[sleek solar]

I hope they will fix the lag soon

[deep pawn]

it would be nice haha

I guess the roadmap will have a bit more clues in 2 weeks

I'm here for a early february season 2 though

[thin warren]

can't wait!

i still have to quest trough the later 3 regions 🥲

only did the main campaign and isle of dorn

[sullen dawn]

Looks like it'll be even earlier than that

10/11 dec

What a surprise 😄

A good one ofc

I now support 11.1 being possible for February

[tropic trail]

How you do those secrets of Azeroth 👀

[sullen dawn]

It's a secret

[tropic trail]

Haha 😂

[deep pawn]

What makes you think it's the 11th?

[sullen dawn]

The wintervsil event starts on the 17th and EU wouldn't get the patch until the 18th

[deep pawn]

Possibly though 7 weeks feels short.

[sullen dawn]

It's the date the datamining community is speculating anyway

[silent urchin]

they might just push the winterveil date a day

[sullen dawn]

True

[warm topaz]

also the patch seems done

[uncut vault]

hey she might be old and just have good skincare, who knows

[silent urchin]

ehhh the storyline cuts off fairly quickly with PH quests and there's a lot of rewards in the data that aren't done yet

the profession respec also doesn't seem to exist

But it does seem fairly far along compared to a lot of PTR first builds

I'm guessing they've made completely separate internal teams for working on the minor patches

[sullen dawn]

That would line up with the pre PTR launch internal/encrypted build deployments

[silent urchin]

that's basically what I was looking at, yeah

[sullen dawn]

We saw first 11.0.7 version like more than a month ago

[silent urchin]

obviously some stuff is shared, but siren's isle feels like it's been in parallel development for a while

[sullen dawn]

There's also the fact that the map itself is a reworked BFA map

[silent urchin]

pretty heavily reworked and expanded

https://fxtwitter.com/Marlamin/status/1852162551444050207

[uncut vault]

Well, we havent tested the main story yet

the full "story" of Siren's Isle is out

[sullen dawn]

i know but im sure it saved them some time

[uncut vault]

it seems to be a similar design of Mechagon, where the story is discovered through minor side quests and treasures, rather than a straight up questline

[deep pawn]

December 11.0.7 to me confirms a February 11.1. PTR for that will likely come up shortly after the direct.

Only thing that makes that feel weird is the Plunderstorm schedule

[silent urchin]

I wouldn't read too much into the schedules, half of them are a bit broken

the anniversary is showing as starting in september

and ending mid november

[deep pawn]

Anniversary one on the 11.0.5 ptr was right on the money

[sleek solar]

I want that black plunderstorm set

[glass flicker]

Someone put the Siren Isle on top of the Isle of Dorn.

It doesn't seem that big, but maybe that's a good thing, as it's a minor patch. If it's as good as Timeless Isle, or even Mechagon, I don't care about size.

Especially since we can't fly there, so maybe verticality will be a big factor.

[warm topaz]

isn't that a weird scale?

[deep pawn]

You can fly eventually

[rain cave]

this is not the same scale

look at the mountains

[glass flicker]

I guess we'll have to wait and see. Honestly? I don't mind map scale, I just want good content.

[warm topaz]

you can do the scale using this map

on top of the dornogal one

but yeah it's probably similar size as dornogal

[glass flicker]

Assuming the map is intricate, I would be content with it not having flying, at all.

I'm glad they're taking away conveniences for the sake of immersion.

Hell, take away my portals. Do it. Make mages matter.

(I heard you like alliteration)

God. Dammit.

[pulsar minnow]

I’m okay with no flying if you can earn it

Honestly I really wish they’d go back and redo ground mounts too

Would be really cool if different ground mounts had different advantages

Like a frog mount jumping really high

[dense plover]

You can?

Oh dang I see

[dense plover]

Problem with that is you need to provide each base type for free then

makes more sense to just create a general set of abilities, probably unrelated to speed since speed on the ground is harder to control and more likely to hit obstacles

Maybe the ability to more easily follow a road or path, like some video games?

[novel zodiac]

i fucking hate seeing a rare spawn, run there at max speed only to see it die

[upper pasture]

Tbf they’ve gotten better with making them immune for X amount of time. FB with the item that basically told you what the next one to spawn was before it spawned was nice but having be immune for a minute to minute and a half is nice too

[pulsar minnow]

I mean

We already have autorun

A speed mechanic wouldn’t be horrible

[dense plover]

hard to do because of collisions

[pulsar minnow]

Wow is pretty open

Collisions wouldn’t be much of an issue

It’s not like this is assassins creed

[sullen dawn]

Not to be pessimstic but i seriously dont think it'll be as good as mechagon

[sullen dawn]

it's easier to do but not as fun/cool

i'd rather 'families' of mounts

each with its own specific traversal and abilitiy strengths and weaknesses

[pulsar minnow]

Haven’t seen anyone mention it yet but Gazlowe got a unique model finally

[deep pawn]

that was back in 11.0 alpha

a tad late

it's also the model he uses in Chen's story about something, maybe the AQ war

[pulsar minnow]

No. Im not late at all.

This was his model in 11.0

He’s been using the normal player goblin model combined with the heritage armor and player gear

This new model that I linked above is similar yes, but its actually a unique model with brand new assets and of course a unique face for Gazlowe

[deep pawn]

so updated model moreso than unique

[pulsar minnow]

It’s a unique model.

The old one used all pre-existing assets on a standard player model

[dense plover]

this is HD

it means they can put him in fancy cinematics, animate his mouth

[deep pawn]

likley necessary for undermine.

still think it's funny they just gave him an old leather chest piece

[pulsar minnow]

at least its fixed now lmao

like yeah it worked i guess but man its scuffed

[dense plover]

its not anymore!

[deep pawn]

is still the same look, still an odd choice to base it on from cata

[pulsar minnow]

Its his new design

The one with the cata leather chestpiece, the one I sent second was the old version.

It was using existing assets to try and recreate this look

The new one, the one I sent first, accurately depicts this

[deep pawn]

it's the cata chest but HD. It's great they did it, but it's a bit unusual for it to just be largely existing gear.

[pulsar minnow]

I feel like we’re looking at two different images here. The old Gazlowe model is using all existing gear- ragged brown shirt, with the vest overtop it. Then they’re using the 3d assets from the goblin heritage armor on the torso to accomplish the fluffy jacket look. Then there’s WoD pants, a BFA belt, the detective hats from the trading post with a set of goggles placed overtop. The gauntlets and boots are goblin heritage armor.

The new Gazlowe is unique everything. It’s not largely existing gear

[ember blaze]

500 tenders for this? 💀

the other 500 options got multiple weapons in one...

[deep pawn]

It's unique in the way the tier 2 hd ugprades are unique? Is that better? I dunno lol. I can recognize the improvement, I still think it's an odd stylistic choice.

[pulsar minnow]

they're too dissimilar. what i've been trying to say is the entirety of that gazlowe model is new and doesnt use anything existing. I also just don't see how thats an HD version of this cata vest lol. They're vests. That's where the similarities begin and end.

its like Anduin, or Thrall. A unique model

[ember blaze]

agree to disagree 💀

[uncut vault]

Well they make separate models for that anyways haha

this is still just a goblin skeleton, it's just a unique asset instead of a player model with armor

[tulip sun]

Yup like any other unique leader model

It just may not seem as unusual bc they could replicate pretty well previously

[inland mantle]

😮

[warm topaz]

i love to see the old world feel alive

i love secrets of azeroth so much

[thin warren]

i'm happy there are hints... i fucking would get annoyed xd

[sleek solar]

I cant wait for the old world update

[thin warren]

What one you mean?

[sleek solar]

They will revamp the old world

[thin warren]

Oh? Realy!? 😮 how so

i missed this

[sleek solar]

Yesss in The Last Titan

[rain cave]

well specifically they're revamping at least a part of northrend

and in midnight they're revamping quelthalas

[sleek solar]

Yes

But I am pretty sure they will update the rest too, either during or after Midnight, to get eveything on the same level again

Draenei is getting a new city too

https://www.wowhead.com/news/ion-hazzikostas-on-old-world-updates-likely-to-happen-lessons-learned-from-334884

Also that

[rain cave]

there's 2 thing I'm betting: either they're going to update zones piece meal for expansions where it makes sense, and slowly rebuild the old world
or after last titan they effectively reboot

since if TLT is the culmination of the worldsoul saga, and argubably that's been going on since cata in a way

and cata was when the world changed

so with azeroth either awake or otherwise explained I suppose it's a good time to reboot the old world

after all they're planning so far ahead, with midnight in full production and from the sounds of it The last titan already planned and probably about to enter some form of late stage preproduction

it gives them time to think about doing it

[thin warren]

cool stuff

[pulsar minnow]

I really feel like 14.0 will be old world or Avaloren (Arathi)

Would be a fantastic thing to reveal after the world soul saga

[rain cave]

I do wonder if they're going to introduce more arathi-esque plothooks for future expansions in the other parts

like if in midnight we get to interact with the trolls as a renown faction, and they have some loa/life stuff going on

[pulsar minnow]

Well they’re definitely sticking with us in Midnight which should be pretty cool, with Renilash and all that

[pulsar minnow]

If Amani get villain batted we riot

The idea you had better be the case

I want Zul Aman becoming an entire zone personally

[rain cave]

There will probably be some as villains, like the arathi

but there's been such a focus on reunification and factions being more than just villains

would not surprise me if the main group of amani are like "yeah this is bigger than a feud"

honestly since the plaguelands are probably cannonically cleared or will be clear of undead

give them the plaguelands, reconnect them to the trolls in there as well

it's so awkward though how the amani story is kind of extremely potentially politically relevant

but for gameplay/lore reasons they won't end up on the fully right side of it 💀

the amani really do be done dirty

[pulsar minnow]

Amani in general are sort of in a weird spot

They’re like tagged onto the ghostlands and stand out like a sore thumb

[rain cave]

it's so funny how 99% of that area is like blood elf and undead interaction as an aesthetic

but then there's like 1 troll building in the corner

[pulsar minnow]

I think the best course of action is to just expand Zul aman into a zone because I got no idea how the hell they plan on making 4 zones out of this

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/wowpedia/images/8/8d/Quel'Thalas_map.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20210321161312

My best guess and hope is that Silvermoon City just becomes an entire zone. Massive elven capital bigger than anything we’ve ever seen before captured in-game

Zul aman becomes its own zone as well

[rain cave]

there is that weird unclaimed region on the map that doesn't actually exist

where that weird elf tower is on the coast

[pulsar minnow]

Oh yeah forgot about that

[rain cave]

potentially fit them there? or move things over to give them more room on the east?

the region will probably be redone completely to make it bigger for skyriding and stuff

isle of queldanas to silvermoon and the ghostlands will probably be rideable

potentially tacked on to the top of the contiennt but who knows they could genuinely instance the whole zone

as like a giant void shield, and the sunwell is just in the middle as a last bastion we can get to

jesus when you circle it like that 💀

it looks a bit phallic

[pulsar minnow]

Ah hell nah

Ok deleting that

[rain cave]

xD

[pulsar minnow]

Look I’m no the dev who decided to make the land of the elves look like a pp

Hahaha

Ok so maybe not that area of land. Don’t think blizz can sell players on Phal’thalas

[rain cave]

the chodelands

honestly though the void bubble idea does kinda make a weird sense to me and I'll outline it in a sec

[pulsar minnow]

I think I’ll settle for ghostlands, Zul aman, silvermoon city, sunwell, Sunstrider Isle, Quel’danas as our first five zones

[pulsar minnow]

Be careful on the outlines 😭😭😭

[rain cave]

red ghostlands, remnants of the undead, perhaps bolvar and talia are here and this is how undead paladins get brought in.
Green, Amani troll land, connection to elves explored, perhaps orweyna and vol'jin are here with talanji?
Blue is the Eversong where we have the main blood elf, high elf and void elf plot happening, perhaps they explore their connection to the forest opening up druidic and shaman options (get those feather and tattoo customisations)
Purple being silvermoon could then be either an endgame zone or an endgame zone if it's been taken over.

then, Quel'danas could have a giant shield around it either caused by the sunwell forming a shield to protect itself or it's the void forces who are putting a barrier up to stop us. This barrier could block the water out from the little area between silvermoon and the isle creating effectivelly it's own minizone. Can bring the naga in there as a thing as well.

so you get basically 3 main zones and the 4th is basically a combination of minizones that tease the endgame zones, like we have now with ahnqahet

[dense plover]

they dont plan on making 4 zones here. Silvermoon and the isle from that raid are probably 1 zone, the other is a 2nd zone

and then the other zones will probably be disconnected

like how BFA had two continents

[pulsar minnow]

They didn’t work out all too great though

Like I don’t think it’s impossible but I remember a chief complaint of BFA being having to travel back and forth between the islands and how monotonous that was

And shadowlands only made it worse

[clear apex]

Given that midnight and last titan are supposed to be focused more on factions working together, i can't see them doing separate zones for factions like bfa

[dense plover]

but they can do travel without load screens now

[pulsar minnow]

Yeah but that works a little different

[clear apex]

Since it's taking place in Eastern kingdoms, there already aren't load screens

[pulsar minnow]

Quel Thalas isn’t connected to the eastern Kingdoms currently

[clear apex]

Oh yeah that. I'm sure it will become connected and it'll work like how other phased zones are

[pulsar minnow]

I mean hey if they can make it a seamless transition sure, but I don’t really know why they would take us to Quel Thalas and then throw in two random zones to finish off the experience rather than just expand and divide what we got into bigger zones

[sleek solar]

Yes pls

This is the Quel Thalas I want to see

Also I want Lor'Themar to become the King

Blood Elves need a king again

Might also have the Nightborne merge with them, they got a lot in common anyway

And Thalyssra and Lor'Themar are married anyway

And since the elven get reunited

[sullen dawn]

you dont know this

[dense plover]

i just think its unlikely

ofc i dont know

if i knew i wouldnt be in this discord lol

the commentary isnt necessary

[sullen dawn]

yeh but the way you phrased it sounded like fact

[dense plover]

oh fuck off with that

you knew it wasnt

[sullen dawn]

you fuck off

lol

[dense plover]

"you stated it as a fact" is what people say when they want to correct someone

its unneccesary

[sullen dawn]

all you do is try and correct people so that's kind of ironic

[dense plover]

its obviously implied that discussion about literally unknown content is speculation

[sullen dawn]

"they dont plan to " sounds pretty definitive but whatever

[rain cave]

clash of the wowhead titans happening right now

tbfwith their obsession of having seamless zones, they could even do something like have different zones be part of a floating area

the main question I have that kind of sets the tone is will the sunwell be taken immediately, or will it be our base of operations where we defend and then it gets invaded in a raid

oh they could do something very cool if the sunwell is used to make a portal

where you literally fly INTO a giant void portal where it is to get to another zone

[sullen dawn]

i don't think it's outside of the realm of possibility for one or even two (more unlikely imo) of the zones to be somewhere else i just dont think we can speak so difinitively about what theyre planning

[pulsar minnow]

If we don’t get K’aresh in TWW, going through the Sunwell to K’aresh in midnight sounds super cool

[sullen dawn]

my guess who be Silvermoon, Eversong, Ghostlands (renamed and not so spooky anymore), and Amani zone

but i could see silvermoon be capital instead of zone, and the 4th zone be something else. they probably want a void heavy zone

[pulsar minnow]

Imagine if they do it like a Zaralek transition, where you fly down through it and have to go through a twisting wormhole tunnel to K’aresh

[rain cave]

I think the main thing is to think about if they can squeeze 4 renown factions in

[pulsar minnow]

I’m for silvermoon the zone bc I just want silvermoon to be absolutely fucking massive. I loved Suramar and want something to top it

[rain cave]

yeah like a combination of zaralek, the aberrus raid portal and the shadowlands worm ortals

[rain cave]

that's what I'm thinking

[sullen dawn]

another possibility is underneath Amani. there was some lore about underground stuff there and could be be void/shadow focus, but im not sure theyd want another undeground zone straight after TWW

[pulsar minnow]

Yeah nah that sounds so insanely cool

slams credit card on counter

[sullen dawn]

regardless, my guess is three of the zones at least will be in Quel'thalas

[rain cave]

but yeah 4 renown tracks could be:

• Silvermoon Elves (encompassing high elves, blood elves for alliance/horde mixing)
• New undead faction from the ghostlands (set up in shadowlands Belf questline, now free from a lich king and any necromancer interferrence)
• Amani
• Perhaps ethereals?

I'm trying to think of a 4th that could fit

[sullen dawn]

i think one of the factions might be 'unified elves effort'

[rain cave]

tbf there are 2 renowns that are both earthen

so yeah that could fit

[sullen dawn]

obviously not the name, but the theme/focus

[rain cave]

a renown faction for the people of silvermoon, and a renown faction for the elf unification faction

[sullen dawn]

i think a light/sunwell heavy faction, and an etheeal/void heavy faction too

it makes sense to have one for each during renalash

[rain cave]

could even have void elves as a renown tbf

[sullen dawn]

yeh

[rain cave]

seperate from the normal high elf/ blood elf thing

[sullen dawn]

the light and void reknowns could both be ex high elves

[pulsar minnow]

Could also be army of the light of some sort

[sullen dawn]

but yeh i could see a light faction, a void faction, an elven reunification faction, and something completely seperate for variety

undead, lorderon, amani or something

[pulsar minnow]

Could def be ethereals

Or at least I want it to be

I need more Locus Walker in my life I fucking love him

[sullen dawn]

im not sure we'd get a void faction AND an ethereal faction. id merge those

[pulsar minnow]

His voice acting is so good

[sullen dawn]

they need one of the renowns to be kind of distinct

otherwise they become a bit samey

[rain cave]

true!

A coalition of elves and a coalition of ight forces could fit well as 2 renowns

[sullen dawn]

thats why im thinking light (can be sunwell or belves in general), void (can be velves or ethereals), elven unification, and something completely distinct (lorderon, undead, amni, or wildcard)

[rain cave]

midnight is setting itself up to be way more than just the reunification of elves in that case

[sullen dawn]

for sure

i only think it'll be like one of four factions, 1/4 of the story focus

[rain cave]

since there's potential for more undead lore, troll lore, elf lore

[sullen dawn]

id like to see how trolls fit into the void more with shadowhunters, voodoo etc..

[rain cave]

Calia will be part of it in some way I feel for sure which is why I think undead lore, since there's a whole section related to undead in the ghostlands and the scar

[sullen dawn]

im so over the forsaken atm tbh

[rain cave]

having Calia stand in the dead scar that her brother caused when he decimated the elves?

[sullen dawn]

theyve been neutred so hard

[rain cave]

too good a moment

and could give the forsaken a renewed purpose and place in the story

helping the elves this time

[sullen dawn]

i wish we got a new 'dark lady' and abandoned the council

renewed war against the living

[rain cave]

pallid lady :3

[sullen dawn]

forsaken to me are best when theyre like a step away from being as bad as the scourge

[pulsar minnow]

I really don’t like everything being a council. Yeah it makes sense but it’s just so bland

[sullen dawn]

agree

[rain cave]

there's a very good potential for Calia in the story I think. They have kind of set her up as someobody who is extremely vulnerable to becoming an idol/icon like Sylvanas was

[sullen dawn]

poor horde 😦

[rain cave]

the naming scheme, her bloodline, etc

[pulsar minnow]

Hell, just say Thrall is the Warchief right now. I BEG

[rain cave]

but she doesn't want that so far I think

[sullen dawn]

i wish shed been more about "reclaiming her families legacy"

[rain cave]

but if the light shows up and sees that she can control the undead, perhaps even persuade them to the light (unlocking undead paladins finally) then they might try set her up to be this sort of big character

[sullen dawn]

instead she seems to mostly reject it

[rain cave]

Midnight is the perfect place for this

[sullen dawn]

id hope, but itd be a pretty big departure from her charcter to date

[rain cave]

we are just above the plaguelands, we could easily get a light/scarlet revolt midway through the expansion

[sullen dawn]

something big would need to happen for her to change her philosophy

[pulsar minnow]

They definitely had big plans for Calia but scaled it back after the intense amount of hate her character received

[rain cave]

ehh I disagree, it's more like she's not actively saught it out, but the narrative will be in a place where if she is present at all she will have to face it

[sullen dawn]

maybe she receives a vision like the arathi emperor did

[rain cave]

and that gives a good place for character growth

she's being forced to confront something she didn't want to

[sullen dawn]

i think in the books she basically said she doesnt give a damn about her family name. maybe im misremembering

i could see some sort of "holy vision" thing working

[rain cave]

yeah she doesn't, but if she goes to the ghostland after hearing about some stray undead there. She's going to have to give a damn when they run away from her as soon as they ask her name

if she walks into a village full of refugees from silvermoon and everyone gives her shifty eyes

this whole thing will probably bring up memories from then

[sullen dawn]

i still think theres a big difference from her finally accepting her heritage, to trying to rebuild the Menthil dynasty in a 'culty' way

[rain cave]

oh no I don't think she will set it up as a cult

I think someone will form a cult ABOUT her

[sullen dawn]

i dont mean an actual cult. just like cult of personality/zealous behaviour

yeh thats what i mean

just her getting very strong convictions about the Menethil name being restored to rebuild Lorderon and rebuild the dedication tot he light

and then a lot of forsaken rallying to her, very devouted, almost 'cult like' like we saw with sylvanas

i dont think shed outright be like "right, im starting a cult" 😛

id like to see all that, but again itd require a pretty big departure in her philosophy. not that they couldnt do it, but it doesnt currently align to who she is

[rain cave]

didn't stop them with other undead women with stories related to the menethils

[uncut vault]

This was already their story back in TBC :P

Except with proper meaning because it was Sylvanas doing it haha

[rain cave]

true but we didn't really see it in person

but this time the forsaken would actually have a reason to be boots on ther ground helping the elves defend their homeland instead of helping them get into the horde and having some off screen help there

and also that was under sylvanas, a victim of the scourge anyway

and whilst Calia isn't Arthas, she is his blood. And you could argue she's kind of run away from that part of it.

She claims to not want to have her name mean anything, yet she's claimed a position of power within her old kingdom despite being largely an outsider to them. Sure she means well, but she can't just take that role without its baggage

[uncut vault]

But the rest of the forsaken have no reason to feel that way

[rain cave]

hopefully she proves herself by leading the forsakens efforts in Silvermoon

[rain cave]

oh sure, but she is a potential frontman

[uncut vault]

Calia’s story is much better served realizing that she doesn’t need to burden herself with the legacy of her family, because they aren’t her actions

[rain cave]

in fact the other forsaken would probably get along better with the elves there

I know

[uncut vault]

The forsaken have had more than enough “we feel so guilty :(“ story over the last few years

[rain cave]

that's not what I mean really

more like a narrative mirror

instead of it being them feeling guilty, it's the same undead but this time HELPING silvermoon

[uncut vault]

Okay but again that’s their story from TBC lol

[rain cave]

because guaranteed some of the forsaken are originally undead who assisted in the defeating of the elves

ehhh but there was only one big patch in silvermoon in TBC, and that was the sunwell

not dealing with the day to day denizens of silvermoon

[uncut vault]

I 100% want to see the forsaken in Midnight, but it’s not a massive ironic twist to have them there

I’d much rather focus on Velonara and how the darkfallen struggle between their two societies than do more Calia guilt

[rain cave]

and again we don't see the forsakens presence on screen much in TBC

and I'm not saying Calia guilt

I don't want a guilt storyline either

[uncut vault]

The post-Sylvanas darkfallen need characterization far more than Calia does

[rain cave]

I'm just saying that the imagery of Calia standing in the scar that her brother caused, leading the forces her brother lead but for the exact opposite cause is something exactly in theme with her character

[uncut vault]

Being the opposite of the things that came before is certainly in theme with her character, yes :P

[rain cave]

I feel Calia will be present even if it's only to address the undead who live in the ghostlands, like how thrall so far has just gone to see the stormriders

[sleek solar]

I want lightforged forsaken as playable

[sleek solar]

Meh, I dont want the forsaken to be about Calia

[rain cave]

we'll see, they could angle her to be more a representative of a certain faction of undead

rather than the whole undead

but she does seem too perfect to not throw into the undead plot of the ghostlands

even if it's just her bringing them into the fold

but she's definetly the catalyst for undead paladins if those happen

[sleek solar]

True

[upper pasture]

are you suggesting making yet another council? doesn't most of the player base despise council ruled factions?

[sleek solar]

Please no

[rain cave]

it already exists

the foresaken are ruled by a council atm

[sleek solar]

I just dont like Calia come back, being pretty again instead of rotten like all other forsaken, immediately getting into the leadership council, even though a lot of the people hate her

[rain cave]

and we have a load of playable races with faction within nobody cares about in a bad way

the nelf's have the moonpriestess' and druids, wardens

humans have silver hand, church, SI7

Orcs have their clans

goblins their cartels

so just making a church for the undead that follow Calia and enables undead paladin doesn't seem out of line

[rain cave]

ehh I kinda think that's the point of her story though

[pulsar minnow]

They can go metal as fuck with a forsaken light church

[rain cave]

as in she's meant to be this character that everyone is weary of because she shouldn't have these things but she's too good a fit

menethil? ruling forsaken? isn't connected to her people or the horde?

she's suspect

she knows she has no sympathy with her people only empathy

if she ever acts like "one of them" she will be called out I think that's an interesting character dynamic to explore

the gap between royalty and their subjects as a topic oozes off of her

[pulsar minnow]

Forsaken Paladins are such an awesome concept. slamming divine hammers into enemies knowing that doing so burns them from the inside out, but they’re just so fully committed to dealing out divine retribution that they just ignore the pain. Like idk that sells paladin more than anything else to me

‘Even in death they follow the light’ and all that

[rain cave]

What I'd give for them to add a hero spec revolving around just going fully light mode

like just RAW explosive light power like the ashbringer

and turalyon's beseechment to the light when he destroyed frostmourne

surrender to madness but for paladins type thing

MORE wings MORE sparkles, light coming from the eyes, skin burning, smites being dolled out, longcooldowns

[pulsar minnow]

See thats kind of what they should’ve done with Herald of the Sun. It feels like that button/dmg wise, but the animations just being lines across your screen are.. lame

[rain cave]

also herald has a lot of external things

[sleek solar]

Sooooo you want to be a scarlet crusader @rain cave ?

[rain cave]

like buffs to allies or dots on enemies

[pulsar minnow]

I still love both Paladin trees I just think they could’ve done more with Herald and accomplished exactly that

[rain cave]

who tf is gerald

[pulsar minnow]

Dude autocorrect

[sleek solar]

hahahahahaa

[pulsar minnow]

It’s so annoying it always corrects Herald to Gersld

Me and my friend just started calling it Gerald of the Sun at this point. Worst part? I don’t even know anyone named Gerald.

[uncut vault]

They already have a metal church, it's the Cult of Forgotten Shadows that blizzard, ironically, keeps forgetting lmao

They've always had the philosophy of balance between light and darkness, they've just got to do something with that and we've already got justification for forsaken paladins

[pulsar minnow]

Keeping up with pre-existing lore? Who’d do that?!

Blizz pls Paladins for all

[rain cave]

yeah we do have Alonsus Faol as well but he's not forsaken

but then again neither is Calia

[uncut vault]

He technically is, but only because Golden goofed up in Before the Storm lol

and forgot that Forsaken is a specific society, not a term for all undead

[rain cave]

oh what did she say there?

did she just call him forsaken at some point

[uncut vault]

just that he's repeatedly described as a forsaken priest, but also explicitly denoted as neutral and not-horde in the same sentence haha

[rain cave]

to be fair, he was raised in the same way as other forsaken

[uncut vault]

Before the Storm has... a lot of issues with the handling of the forsaken, to put it lightly lol

[rain cave]

he's an ex-scourge freed from the lich kings grasp

[uncut vault]

going back and reading it, you can really tell the hard pivot from their original plan for Calia

[rain cave]

he just then decided to leave and do his own thing instead of joining the other forsaken

[uncut vault]

especially in the final chapters

[rain cave]

it's not like Calia, or that random mage who freed himself

[uncut vault]

Well that's what I mean, he's a former Scourge undead, but he's not a political member of the Forsaken

at least, not prior to 9.2.5

now it's a bit unclear, since he lives in Lordaeron since the reclamation

[rain cave]

I suppose you could stretch forsaken to just mean that kind of undead in context

as in ex lordareon humans raised into the scourge and given free will when arthas lost his hold

[uncut vault]

Oh that's definitely what golden thought it meant

because the end of the book explicitly says "Calia is not forsaken" haha

[rain cave]

if I had a nickel for every legion priest female character who came back in a later expansion to be important I'd have 3 nickels

if mage is the golden child of the class designers, priest is the writers darling

[uncut vault]

if only you had four

[uncut vault]

Well, they definitely werent in Legion lol

their entire story amounted to "we need the paladins to save us"

to the point where their mid-campaign Niskara quest is just a copy paste of the paladin version, complete with the NPCs all calling you highlord haha

and everyone still keeps trying to push Anduin into the "manduin" paladin role, despite the story being so clear about his priestly status lol

[pulsar minnow]

I’ve even fallen in the camp of wanting Paladin Anduin. But honestly either way works for his character

They did a really good job with Faerin and Anduin and the idea of “A healer is just as important as everyone else”

[rain cave]

get him out of that plate blizz

and let him give the sword on to someone

it's not helping him lmao

[uncut vault]

It's 50/50 given the marketing tendencies, but my hope is that the conversation he has with thrall at the end of 11.0 is leading to him putting Shalamayne to rest

Ideally along with the plate and the whole kingly expectations, but blizzard has a thing for monarchies so it's up in the air as to if they'll properly follow through lol

[sullen dawn]

they shouldnt feel anything

except "death to the living!"

[rain cave]

am curious where the sword would go

or if he'd just hang it up somewhere, put it on varians grave?

[deep pawn]

Maybe he gives Holy Shalamayne to Liadrin or that orphan girl who is now a Paladin.

[pulsar minnow]

I don’t see Anduin throwing away Shalamayne personally

Its got too much of a legacy that’s fundamental to Anduin. His father and Saurfang chief among them.

Shalamayne really just reflects Anduins current mental state. If anything I see Shalamayne evolving alongside him rather than being thrown away. Just my opinion tho

[ember blaze]

evolving from ⚔️ to 🪄 ?

🧙‍♂️

[pulsar minnow]

No. More like the sword is still a sword just looks different

Like if Anduin goes down a discipline priest road, the blade becoming dual light and void

[ember blaze]

turn it into a staff 😡

[pulsar minnow]

Swords are just cooler man :0

[rain cave]

but priests can't use swords!

[sleek solar]

Gameplay does not translate well to lore characters

Anduin is not a disc priest, he is just a priest

Its not like he has a keyboard to press N and click on Disc or holy or shadow and he will change

[rain cave]

I know I know

thrall is another example there

because he presents himself as enhancement but only has a single weapon and whenever he's shown being powerful it's because he's using more elemental stuff lmao

and ofc even dark rangers aren't even fully hunters

sylvanas uses melee in her makgora and it's dual wield I think lmao

let survival use dual wielding blizzard I beg you

or if they wanted to really go balls to the wall let BM and Survival be both melee with those options

GW2 has some cool aesthetics for beastmastery stuff by making you literally embody your pet and take on their traits

would love to see a hero spec for hunters BM/Survival that does something like that

packleader is about commanding pets moreso whereas it would be cool to bring back the aspect buffs as a hero spec thematic

[upper pasture]

I really wish hunters still could equip two 1h weapons or one 2h weapons :/ I sorta miss walking around with all these weapons attached to my for various reasons. Of course I miss it on other classes too and I understand why they did it. It just sucks lol

[rain cave]

yeah I wish there was more customisation for weapons

like 2h enhance, dual wield hunters

2h enhance especially I'm surprised they haven't brought back

since it's so iconic and there's multiple legendary weapons that fit it so well

Fyralath and Sulfuras are both pretty shamanic weapons in their origins

and I feel one of the most satisfying fantasies of enhance, the windfury effect is enhanced by having a big 2h

[ember blaze]

could easily make it cosmetic only

instead of forcing talent choices

and trying to balance between 2

[rain cave]

ehh I suppose but that's awkward since they'd not have a way of collecting the appearances

not on their loot tables

and because of that there would be no weapons made for them in a way, (less of a problem)

but even then other classes do this anyway without talents

shamans can have a staff, a 2h mace or a mace and shield

admitedly that is for stat sticks but

I think frost DK doesn't even have talents for 1/2h anymore

monks also can swap between dual wielding and a 2h I think

[uncut vault]

Funnily, blizzard almost made an Anduin-themed priest hero spec, that let them wear plate and use swords

but decided against having armor variants for hero talents so they scrapped it

[uncut vault]

Well that's kind of the whole point of his conversation with Thrall :P

that he thought he needed to pick up Varian's sword and live up to what he was

but the actual greatest gift Varian left wasn't his sword, it was his faith in Anduin

tying Varian's legacy to his sword is framed as where Anduin went wrong

[pulsar minnow]

I saw it more as Anduin went wrong when he believed he had to be his father

He felt unworthy of the sword because he couldnt separate the blade from his father- thinking he wasn’t enough like him. But of course he has a strength of his own that makes him worthy of that same blade. In a different but equal way to his father

That’s kinda why I don’t want him giving up the sword. To give up Shalamayne would be to say he’s not worthy of it or that it’s holding him back. Which we know isn’t true.

[ember blaze]

then just open up the weapons who cares

or what they do have just let you select between any weapon look you want

like if i have a shit daggre and offfhand i want to be able to pick staff

[ember blaze]

i think they split some talents between breath and oblit

fury warriors also have worthless talents on 1h

will it destroy something in the game if fury warrior players could just choose 1h swords for their weapons in the mog window?

while having 2h equipped?

[rain cave]

to think there's something to do with "worthiness" is the whole reason he lost his light and went on a brooding holiday

he doesn't want that baggage. He is is own man and shouldn't be defined by some arbitrary idea of what he should be related to his father

in fact that's what Varian would have WANTED

Varian knows he wasn't a great father. He had only just turned things around with Anduin when he was struck down at the broken shore

Varian wasn't even the greatest king, he was a warrior, a man of war. He's honourable but still would probably struggle with times of peace, after all he was aa gladiator for a while. He was away from the throne for Anduins childhood

In this time for peace, a man like Anduin makes sense the most as a king. Specifically because we've seen him not be that warrior. He was pushed into the role prematurely and literally just in time for 2 of the biggest fights on Azeroth. His self reflection is why he's a good leader, as well as his general reluctance for such power.

[ivory meadow]

I believe neither is the case; it's not about worthiness or how having the sword was holding him back, it's more about what it represents. Shalamayne represented the values of Varian as a man, father, king, soldier and how carried himself as a warrior. That is not represented as well through Anduin; he is of a different caliber and strength, a strength that Thrall points out is greater than any sword, his compassion, empathy, and ability to understand and see people of all walks of life no matter how they might appear. This strength is especially encapsulated in Azj-Kahet.

After the Shadowlands, Anduin felt he was unworthy to wield himself, so... he put all of what he thought he needed to be in his father because when he needed faith in himself the most the first time, his father and Shalamayne shone the way, but now, at the other end of the road, when he needed it the most, he needed to find faith in himself by trusting himself. Even after that though, Shalamayne still has not ignited which I believe is because of how Anduin has come to perceive himself following 11.0, which is not resonant with Shalamayne.

[pulsar minnow]

That’s kinda what I’m saying. He believed himself unworthy, or that he had to prove himself in some way. He has the right to wield Shalamayne because he is himself.

He doesn’t need to prove anything to anyone. But also it’s useless to throw away Shalamayne considering it’s an incredibly powerful weapon that in a world where everyone is trying to kill you, it wouldn’t hurt to have a sword

And again in general- it’s iconic to his character

[uncut vault]

I mean there is a whole cinematic about him dropping it to wield his actual best asset, you know :P

there's a reason why his reliance on it in TWW is framed as misguided and suicidal

[uncut vault]

I hope you know that applying this wholly means that it also applies to Anduin not needing to be king haha

[pulsar minnow]

Yes but in that same cinematic he also saved himself and Genn from a troll with that same blade. Im not saying the light isn’t his strongest asset. It most definitely is. But with now-developed sword skills I don’t see a reason for him to leave the sword behind.

[uncut vault]

The framing there isn't really a triumphant moment, it's a desperate flailing, which ultimately is just a drop in the bucket in the battlefield around him

he doesn't actually impact what's going on until he puts it down and starts healing people

[pulsar minnow]

Well- yes.

The sword still saved his life there

It’s a tool, not his primary tool. Just A tool in his arsenal

[ember blaze]

he should get a better tool then

[pulsar minnow]

I refuse to join staff squad 😠

[ember blaze]

imagine if he carried a wand or staff that helped him with his magic

[pulsar minnow]

Me not like.

Unga bunga sword

[rain cave]

Oh I know

But that's the conundrum for him

And why he stepped away

Previously he was king by succession

He needs to prove to himself he isn't just a bloodline

[uncut vault]

you can unga bunga with a staff too, WoW is just often boring with them lol

[rain cave]

After that maybe he'll feel comfortable being an option for leader

[uncut vault]

Well I think that brings up the fundamental question: does he need to prove himself for that? Does he need to be king, and is it the best use of his calling as a healer to be cooped up in Stormwind keep?

[rain cave]

I'd say a prevailing yes

[uncut vault]

Even if he's a good king in times of peace, he's pretty abjectly awful in times of war, and got repeatedly bailed out by others in BfA

[pulsar minnow]

I’m kidding. Despite disagreeing, I don’t think it’s impossible for Anduin to lose Shalamayne. Hell, I wouldn’t be surprised if Xal’Atath just straight up smashes it to pieces. But if they give him a staff it better look REALLY cool, that’s my condition

[rain cave]

Because they treated him like his father

[uncut vault]

and he was utterly wracked by guilt the whole way through, and just fundamentally doesn't want to send people to their deaths

[rain cave]

And didn't get that

He treated himself like that even

Donning the armour and sword

As was said he needs to trust himself

[uncut vault]

That's the thing though: Varian was a good king, because he had the temperment for war and the willingness to listen to people like Anduin

Anduin fundamentally doesn't have the temperment for war, it's a huge plot point in Shadows Rising

he cannot enjoy himself as king because the position inherently requires sending people to their deaths

He can't ignore the threat of war as a king, and he's just not suited for that

but everyone forced him into that role because of his inheritance, even before Varian's death

I really wish the story in Shadows Rising wasn't locked away in a book, because it informs Anduin's modern character so much and the damage that being king does to him

[ember blaze]

I wish after so many decades we casters got to use our staffs/wands/w/e to cast...

[rose escarp]

Which cinematic is that? Doesn’t look familiar 🤔

[pulsar minnow]

BFA Reveal Trailer

[sleek solar]

https://youtu.be/jSJr3dXZfcg?si=bS-9AwXf1cTqhSbd

[rain cave]

even if we had something cheesy like the option to use the literal weapon animations with staffs to cast

like an orc warlock swinging his staff overheard like arms warriors do and a chaos bolt comes out the end

[silent urchin]

oh there was a new archives quest this week?

https://bsky.app/profile/keyboardturner.bsky.social/post/3la7xdyfh2g2z pretty big reveals there

[warm topaz]

https://x.com/Stiven_SRB/status/1853933258112712918/photo/2

Stiven (@Stiven_SRB) on X

Warcraft II Remastered !!! :D

Twitter · Nov 5, 2024, 10:51 PM

didn't know where to send this, probably this is not the place

but there you go

[pulsar minnow]

So looks like the last Titan logo is the world core

I love these Titan disc story dumps. Sure there’s probably a better way to relay this information but it’s also a very quick and efficient way to explain how the titans ordered the planet

Im just shocked they’re dropping so many reveals this fast. Half of the stuff I would’ve expected save for plot strings to pick up later in the saga

[sullen dawn]

I think the beginning of TLT we will already be on the offensive against the titans

It won't be some mid expansion twist/pivot

Like I could see the expansion starting with a civil war breaking out between the titans, and 4 of them are our renown reps

Think we talked about that

[pulsar minnow]

Yeah

[upper lantern]

How do I enlist to choose Sargeras as my titan patron?

[sullen dawn]

We actually did speculate he'd be one of the four allied titans

Eonar, Sargeras, Khaz'Garoth and one other

[pulsar minnow]

Aggramar my beloved

[iron hare]

Golganeth

His avatar thorim has always been the closest with the mortals

[sullen dawn]

he wins the "most likely to be killed instantly in TLT" award

[iron hare]

Aggramar imo, we alrdy fought him once so he's the most known, if sargeras is getting redeemed his surrogate son getting killed off will anger him most

[pulsar minnow]

Not gonna lie, as much as I like Aggramar and don’t wanna see him go, I could def see him dying. I wouldn’t like it but he is also like the most morally conscious titan

He is the one that empowered Tyr after all

[rain cave]

it could be that the gold titans are the ones on our side

aggrammar, Sargeras, khazgoroth, eonar

[uncut vault]

Khaz'goroth seems to be the primary instigator of all the current reveals, so I doubt he'd be on our side

[rain cave]

fair

[ionic terrace]

new build

[deep pawn]

no notes yet

weird, client is incompatible.

yeah, this patch is coming before Christmas, very small

[uncut vault]

moment of truth for me today, been waiting for Kirin Tor story for months lol

[silent urchin]

You see both 11.0.5 realms and 11.0.7 realms in both PTR clients, the 11.0.7 ones are still offline

[sullen dawn]

I think he's gonna be the 'overcome by immense guilt' titan

The one Aman Thul really didn't see swapping sides

I think he always distrusted Eonar, and Sargeras is obvious, but I think there's room in the story for him to be blindedsided by one turning coat and I think Khaz fits the bill

[sullen dawn]

I think he'll feel guilty about what he put his creations through

Complete speculation of course

[tulip sun]

Ah I'm eager to see it! I'll be watching your Twitter haha

[deep pawn]

If the play about Dornic is correct he already does feel guilty

Or it's just a lie the Earthen have told themselves

I just have a hard time believing 11.0.7 will be the current patch for almost 3 months

[uncut vault]

One of the 11.0 side quests confirms it's not

Dornic wasn't peacefully sent away in a keeper-sanctioned revolution, he was ripped to pieces in a secret ambush by the Earthen, who tried to keep it a secret

[deep pawn]

I don't know how true either version is really. Both agree Dornic was killed though

[uncut vault]

and now this week's archive quest confirms that the Thraegar were rebellious earthen, not their revered generals

so it seems like Archaedas wiped their memories and fed them a bunch of propaganda to quell future revolts, hence why they've got a limit on how far back their memories go

[ionic terrace]

damn it lmao

spoilers for kirin tor quest

[silent urchin]

||I was going "huh they reused kel thuzads phylactery from SoD" until it clicked after reading a few of the items||

Cutscene at the end plays but has no sound, kinda shorter than I expected

It's quite nice overall

[rain cave]

if I had a nickel for every time a lich king minion came back as a mirror image for a new quest that lets us see and interact with their original self as part of a cool sidequest story I'd have 2 nickels

[ionic terrace]

were you on a mage by any chance

[silent urchin]

priest

[ionic terrace]

did your character do anything during the cutscene?

[silent urchin]

Not that I noticed, no glowy hands like the mages at least

[ionic terrace]

ok cool, mage only thing

love those little touches

[ember blaze]

still waiting for my dracthyr to use their wings in a cutscene

why am i crashing down with everyone when i can just fly

[uncut vault]

I have to assume this is part one in a long term arc

story ends barely resolved beyond the initial moment of grief

all the moral questions about the kirin tor are entirely unanswered, and we don't even see the other four Council members

[silent urchin]

Plus giving it a permanent flight point

Nothing about what they're actually doing going forward

Surprised we didn't run into that one escaped prisoner in azj'kahet during the quests

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=227491/zuramat-the-obliterator

huh he actually has a quest item? But for what quest

which also dropped from the frostfire elemental (that does show up, and had previously been marked as a demon)

[deep pawn]

This patch feels oddly abandoned, 11.0.5 that is

I expected more tuning

but I feel like everything has been moved on to 11.1

[deep pawn]

oh, they should be telling us soon what the watch rewards for the direct is gonna be eh?

[tropic trail]

Lol he was a mage before? He is the worst villain ever. How this even happened? 👀

[deep pawn]

necromancer

[sleek solar]

Mage

[deep pawn]

Mages can become necromancers very easily.

[sleek solar]

True but he was a mage

Before he became a necromancer and lich

[tropic trail]

Yea he was even in shadowlands how he even fall that low. Gezz

Sounds like some perfect Halloween horror story

[rain cave]

covenant titans 💀

I'm still convinced that dragonflight's original mechanics pitch was going to be what shadowlands was

4 distinct factions with different aesthetics and magic that we ally ourselves with and learn about, and learn about their interplay and such

covenant abilities feel so much more natural as "dragonflight" abilities

[sullen dawn]

I think it's more so when they planned DF before SL came out they expected covenants to be a feature going into all future expansions

Which it mind of did in a way - renown carries a lot of the same structures. Obviously differences too, but renown is what covenants became

[deep pawn]

thank the gods covenant abilities didn't stay

[rain cave]

I mean

they kind of did

we still have them

just not the covenant system xD

[sullen dawn]

The abilities weren't the issue

[rain cave]

I did like how covenants forced them to think about class fantasy through different lenses though

which is what hero talents do now

covenants walked so hero talents could run

[sullen dawn]

Marrying the skills to cosmetics and theme was the only issue

Yeh, it's all continue of small time iterations imo. Nothing massively exciting in any of those systems

Hero talents are fine but they're pretty bland as a feature. They exist more for blizzs ease of balancing than they do to give us cool stuff

I'm not against them, they're just eh

[rain cave]

I like them a lot

because they do customise the playstyles in ways more meaningful than just having some rows of talents extra

[sullen dawn]

Sure, it's just so low impact gameplay and customization wise

I would have preferred full class skins thar massively transform customization wise. I wouldn't even care if we didn't get new gameplay with that

[deep pawn]

Shaman hero talents are pretty good

[sullen dawn]

Again, I don't think any of them are bad, just boring

Well a few are bad haha

[rain cave]

I think they transform things kind of a perfect amount

like playing a spellslinger frost mage vs frostfire feels like a different damage profile

[sullen dawn]

I prefer more of rp customization than power progression though

[sullen dawn]

Mage is one of my least favourite

My frost mage is stuck with no choice because I don't like my characters having the same hero talents

My fire mage is sun fury cool, my arcane is spell finger fine, but my frost mage is screwed because I don't wanna be a frostfire mage, I wanna be a pure frost mage

And the only one of those three with anything remotely interesting is sunfurys Phoenix, which isn't THAT interesting. Water elemental in the past was almost that exciting

I feel they force me down particle rp fantasies without offering enough fun in return

[rain cave]

spellslinger is pretty frosty

[sullen dawn]

But eh, they're my only real complaint about TWW

[rain cave]

because it doesn't have any arcane visuals for frost

[sullen dawn]

Yeh but my arcane is spell slinger and I don't wanna double dip

[rain cave]

it's just more frost

why not?

[sullen dawn]

Id rather be able to pick "no hero talent" for my frost mage

Just personal rp preference

I have one of each spec and I like to keep them different

[rain cave]

I mean can't fault them for that xD

that's like saying you don't like talents and don't want a capstone

and just want a 1 button rotation

[sullen dawn]

No I like complex rotations

[rain cave]

yeah but like the concept of it I mean

[sullen dawn]

And the talents give me lots of options

I think that's a bit reductionist though

[rain cave]

like if you want to gimp your performance for RP purposes that's ok

[sullen dawn]

Talents have like 6 capstones

[rain cave]

but you can't blame them when they do give you an accomodation :p

[sullen dawn]

I typically do

I choise rp and the feel of a rotation over meta performance every day of the week

Look I don't hate hero talents, I just think they restrict rp choice rather than open doors (this would be less true if there was 5-6 options per class), and the gameplay editions are mediocre at best

Rest of the expansion is great though

Just would have preferred cosmetic only class skins that transformed everything

[rain cave]

I feel like just class skins would alo have issues then though

since there would be functionally no difference between a fire mage throwing around phoenixes and orbs vs a frostfire mage

[sullen dawn]

Oh the class skins wouldn't be the same as the hero talents

It'd be like necromancer for warlock etc..

Basically just different flavors for the same gameplay

[rain cave]

yeah but even that I think wouldn't work

like you can't just take the warlock pets and change them into undead

[sullen dawn]

I think you could

[rain cave]

it doesn't fit without some sort of questline and other stuff

[sullen dawn]

It could be on creation you do it. Like an allied race

[rain cave]

like if you did a questline to unlock those options where some warlocks went to northrend to learn to bind undead

[sullen dawn]

They wouldn't actually BE warlocks, just gameplay wise they would

[rain cave]

ehh no I disagree with putting that kind of stuff in character creation

because it confuses newer players

[sullen dawn]

You'd create a 'necromancer'

Basically 'allied classes'

[sullen dawn]

Ah yes all those new wow players

[rain cave]

that creates so much work though

every new hero talent or warlock spell then needs necromancer visuals

[sullen dawn]

Ultimately I'm requesting things id like, not stuff for new players

[rain cave]

and how would a necromancer work with destruction?

[sullen dawn]

Yes it's a big project

[sullen dawn]

"Obliteration"

[rain cave]

ok but then you need not only frosty visuals

but all the frost abilities are doing fire damage?

and are frost school

[sullen dawn]

Specs would be Skelemancer (Demonologist), Decay (Affliction), and Obliteration (Destruction)

[sullen dawn]

Magic schools have such a tinnnnnnny impact on class balance I don't think it matters

[rain cave]

I think it makes more sense to just create a questline that allows certain classes to become a bit closer cosmetically to other things

[rain cave]

ehhh not really

[sullen dawn]

Yeh I don't like that idea

[rain cave]

like for example if you're a warlock, your defensives are shadow

[sullen dawn]

I rather hard lines/divides between fantasies

[rain cave]

so if you're DPSing with frost abilties and get kicked

you can still defensive

[rain cave]

well no such this exists in WoW lmao

[sullen dawn]

No because your defensive would change too

[sullen dawn]

Classes? Specs?

Races?

[rain cave]

yeah? and look how those have softened

[sullen dawn]

I don't think they have

Only horde/alliance has

And I didn't mention that

[rain cave]

I think horde/alliance is the harder barrier

[sullen dawn]

Ok I'm not talking about that. I didn't mention them as an example in response to you saying those divides don't exist

[rain cave]

there's a reason that specific fantasies are split amongst other classes

[sullen dawn]

I said classes specs and races

Discreetly

[rain cave]

like how sure, druids are nature but so are shamans

[sullen dawn]

Druids and shamans are nothing like each other

[rain cave]

and in some areas they both start crossing into eachothers fantasies

[sullen dawn]

Wow actively goes out of its way to make each class feel distinct

Always has

[rain cave]

and those blurred lines tend to be where NPC fantasies are

like witch doctors for trolls

[sullen dawn]

They aren't player classes

[rain cave]

witch doctors are vaguely priests, druids, warlocks, shamans

[sullen dawn]

I said player fantasies

And those 'blurred concepts' are good options for class skins imo

[rain cave]

yeah, and so lets give those classes those skins

[sullen dawn]

But there's definitely hard hard lines between player class fantasies, we see this consistently reinforced. Legion did it a huge amount

Order halls showed how thematically discrete each class is

[rain cave]

like if we had priestesses of elune teaching priests how to use more elune looking light

in a questline

rather than making that a whole new class that is just priest and then also has to be shadow somehow

[sullen dawn]

A priestess of elune is a bit tame for a class skin imo. You can basically already rp that by being an elf and wearing the right mog

[rain cave]

I feel the order halls actually showed how diverse each class is

like the paladin order hall had a bunch of different fantasies going on

same with priest, even mage

[sullen dawn]

Id rather things like Warden for Warrior or Paladin, Necromancer for Warlock

[rain cave]

warden as in maiev?

that would probably just be a rogue thing

[sullen dawn]

You can have diversity in hard devided fantasies. Paladin being discrete from Warrior doesn't mean you can't have paladin diversity. Just that it doesn't bleed easily with warrior

[sullen dawn]

Could also be rogue

Just giving examples

[rain cave]

but also warden fantasy bleeds around

like DH also take some stuff from wardens

mechanically

[sullen dawn]

Ish

[rain cave]

mainly things like banish

but yeah it's why I believe they should pair classes up for class skins