beta-ptr-spoilers

[glass flicker]

It's in the very WoD cinematic. "35 years ago"

[uncut vault]

the dark portal =/= the consumption of the blood of mannoroth

that happened years prior

the dark portal was opened due to the orcs destroying their own planet and needing a new place to go later on

[upper pasture]

true so if it took 5 years for them to destroy OG draenor then the timeline is okay

[crystal pond]

The whole WoD thing is alternative timeline, and not the real timeline

Its 35 years for them, but not for our timeline

[subtle oar]

The WoD trailer took place in the past of AU Draenor, we when thru it after it had 35 years to build up the Iron Horde

[glass flicker]

https://tenor.com/view/not-impressed-chloe-what-are-you-talking-about-what-gif-14995583

I don't think you guys know how time travel works.

[subtle oar]

You clearly dont

[glass flicker]

By all means, enlighten me.

[subtle oar]

The WoD trailer was 35 years before the DP opened.

[upper pasture]

you know what im gonna go back and watch it now

[subtle oar]

In those 35 years, garrosh as his goblins helped unite the iron horde and build up its iron army

[crystal pond]

"Draenor [ˈdɹænɔɹ] is the main setting of the Warlords of Draenor expansion, which takes place thirty-five years ago in a parallel universe that Kairozdormu brought Garrosh to using the Vision of Time."

[pulsar minnow]

Garrosh was sent back to 4 years before the opening of the dark portal, and in two years was able to create the Iron Horde and invades Azeroth 2 years earlier to when they would have in the main timeline

He was not there for 35 years

At the bottom it states the Iron Horde is a two-year old army

[upper pasture]

also he'd would have had to age 35 years if he was there that long no?

unless he had Kairozdormu move him around on the timeline. from the point in the cutscene then just before the army comes through the dark portal

[pulsar minnow]

That too. Also, I don't think Grom would have even been born yet at that point 😂

[upper pasture]

i think were putting too much stock in it not just being another retcon to fit current lore

[rain cave]

I thought the 35 years ago was from the end of mop

Since that was the current

[upper pasture]

you know that makes some sense

so garrosh got since back 4 years before the opening of the dark portal

[rain cave]

Well if the wod trailer wasn't 35 years before when they set the ending of mop then why say 35 years ago lol

If it was actually 50 years or whatever they'd say 50

How old was thrall in wc3 though

Because I'm concerned about the timeline if WoW already started like what 7 years after wc3?

And thrall grew up since birth on azeroth

Like he must have been exactly 35 or something at end of mop

Or slightly younger, since he hadn't been born in WoD

[upper pasture]

i mean we don't know when in the timeline the trailer starts is all we didn't know how much time had passed from the ending of MoP and the start of WoD until now(?)

[uncut vault]

2Fast2Kalec

[plain violet]

https://giphy.com/gifs/thefastsaga-fast-and-furious-saga-6-xVPosMMzT60Xzv31my

[plain violet]

@uncut vault In Grimoire of the Shadowlands, some brokers are surprised how spirits from Azeroth can just nope out from the Kyrian and stay as spirits on Azeroth, without knowing why. I think that should be sufficient for why we have spirits on DF quests. :)

[rain cave]

Bruhhhh

[crystal pond]

I hope we will get some old plot spirits

I wish they dont gonna forget about nefarian and onyxia models, and will make new ones
Hope they will look sick

[livid walrus]

i think there is a third faction beside sabalian and wrathion. "

[crystal pond]

Ebyssian?

[livid walrus]

they are unfriendly

but i am going to check which rep they give

[crystal pond]

https://www.wowhead.com/beta/quest=65687/a-show-of-force

All of this npc have neltharion's title in them

Sus

[livid walrus]

I this npc after you talk to her she gives you optionto get a quest:

you need to get all of those

[dense plover]

weird

[livid walrus]

over here

[livid walrus]

it seems to me to be secret like, as each brew has special flavor which might tie to location

[dense plover]

hmmm

unlikely to be a standard secret, since its tracked via a quest

might be a dev-designed side quest

[livid walrus]

might be firelands as examples

yea . nothing major i would think just side thing

[livid walrus]

if you want to find your fellow dracthyr from starting zone come here

oh i found the etherals

[uncut vault]

Where's this NPC?

[livid walrus]

i logged off but if you next to sebalian it is abit south and left

somewhere there

so you will have idea where it is

i want to get the thing beside that npc to 10/10

[dense plover]

oh dang, just now getting to read about the primalist invasions - the fact that doing only world pve, you can get gear thats nearly normal raid equivalent is fucking awesome

it doesnt outmode doing raid or M+, but it means you can be relatively competitive or ready to join a PUG without having to touch lfr or lfd

[subtle oar]

Not having to do LFR is POGGERS

[dense plover]

i mean, you still have to if you want to finish the story without doing normal or something - but thats decent ilvl

[subtle oar]

I still firmly believe LFR should not reward ilvl loot. Only runes, maybe some crafting mats (not any efficient amount), and maybe an ensemble if you clear all the wings

[dense plover]

i feel like LFR should be like FFXIV's solo duty thing with NPCs so you can experience the story and complete the quests

it could still give transmog - maybe the same ilvl loot but like, not group based

[subtle oar]

I agree. It should be a trial tho, not rewarding gear. I really feel Mythic and LFR shouldnt reward ILVL gear. Only Normal and Heroic, m+ and pvp. In DF, every pvper, regardless of skill level will be able to get the best pvp gear. A person at 1400 will have a full set of max ilvl pvp gear as a Glad 1

[dense plover]

mythic is so hard it should absolutely have ilvl gear

but LFR as a concept is supposed to be about experiencing the content

so i think they should rethink it as some kind of story-based solo or small group content

[subtle oar]

I disagree. It should be like FFXIVs Ultimates, rewarding exclusive appearances

Not ilvl gear

[dense plover]

the ultimates have gear too - pretty sure

[subtle oar]

Nope

[dense plover]

totems tho

[subtle oar]

Totems are from Savage and Extreme trials

Ultimates only give exclusive weapon appearances

[dense plover]

exclusive appearances with good stats and high ilvl

theyre not just appearances

[subtle oar]

No.

They are only appearances.

I have talked to Ultimate raiders

[dense plover]

https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Ultimate_Almace

literally the PLD weapon from alexander ultimate

[subtle oar]

They told me flat out it doesnt give gear

[dense plover]

ilvl 475

it doesnt

it gives a totem you can exchange for a weapon

[uncut vault]

They only have weapons, and they are at the same item level as savage (heroic equivalent) weapons

[subtle oar]

The weapon is an exclusive appearance. You can get a same ilvl weapon outside of Ultimate

[dense plover]

huh

yeah theyre actually worse

i dont think mythic should be that though

its a lot of bosses

[subtle oar]

It 1000% should be

[dense plover]

its a ton of work

[subtle oar]

That allows every player to have access to the best gear and not force people to go into mythihc for player power, only bragging rights

[uncut vault]

I think the main reason it could work is because it could mean they don’t have to repeatedly neuter their own fights over the course of months

[subtle oar]

^

[uncut vault]

They could be released as intentionally very hard fights, and take dedication to do for the satisfaction and appearances rather than gear

[subtle oar]

^^^^^^

[uncut vault]

Rather than released in one state for Method and Limit

[subtle oar]

100000%

[dense plover]

maybe if they split it into wings like they do in 14?

[uncut vault]

And then nerfed to the ground for everyone else

[dense plover]

since it would suck to have to reprogress to the last boss every week to try and get unique loot

but wow also relies on you running content multiple times

[uncut vault]

Well tbh I think WoW should do that regardless

[dense plover]

idk how you could make them like the ultimate raids while still doing that

[uncut vault]

It should still come with the stipulation of clearing the previous bosses first though

[dense plover]

tbh i agree - i think the "beat the first bosses 4 times to unlock a portal" is fucking dumb

i think if you beat them on the difficulty, thats enough to unlock the next wing

[uncut vault]

I don’t think they’ll ever be quite like ultimate, ultimate is a wholly unique beast of doing every single thing perfect in exact tandem, in one long fight

I don’t think the actual format of mythic fights needs to change

Just the entry/reward structure for incentive

[subtle oar]

Imagine how much better the game would be with 2 less ilvl difficulty brackets, meaning less bloat overall, more impactful gear, more players can have the best gear in the game, Mythic remains hard the entire Xpac and never nerfed

[dense plover]

i dont think you could ever get enough people on board

also mythic would still get easier over time as more raid tiers release

[uncut vault]

Well yeah that’s unavoidable in WoW, they’d never do the FFXIV ilvl lock format for ultimates

[subtle oar]

You 100% could. Heroic is the most populated Raid difficulty. Mythic is a minority of the playerbase

[uncut vault]

But there would still be cutting edge

It would still be an achievement, just one of skill alone, not skill + gear farming

[subtle oar]

^

There'd be no way to overgear that achievement

[uncut vault]

And it would be a way to cut out the BoE mess that mythic guilds go through

[subtle oar]

You could not just sleep your way thru Mythic as a boostee either

[uncut vault]

At least in part, because they’d have two clears worth of gear to get from heroic as the highest gear tier

[subtle oar]

Mythic could be tuned to require all 20 players doing their thing

Meaning boosting Mythic would be killed

TO go into Mythic, you'd have to be there to put in the effort with everyone else

It would apear Blizz is on that path already tho with PvP is DF

All PvPers, regardless of rating, will be able to get a full set of the best ilvl gear

No ilvl locked behind rating, no upgrading pvp ilvl

Just buy with conquest, boom, you have your BiS

Blizz HAS to take this approach with the other forms of endgame content

In some manner

[uncut vault]

The main point in summary is that Blizz needs to embrace cosmetics as a high end reward moreso than gear, stuff like the dungeon teleports are a good start but they need to bring back things like challenge mode sets

[subtle oar]

^^^^^^^^^

GOD YES

Holy fuck yes

[ancient canyon]

hello if i preorder DF collector's edition, i'll have to wait to get the code in the physical box, right?

[subtle oar]

Yes

[ancient canyon]

but i'd still be getting it same time as downloaders, assuming shipping is on time right

[subtle oar]

Depends on shipping

xD

[opaque pewter]

No gear for mythic difficulty could be interesting but it would lose a lot of people's reason for doing them at the moment. Maybe soften the blow a bit and make gear give max 4 ilvl or something. Tune for max heroic gear with a bit of organic edge if you clear boss at the difficulty

[cunning fossil]

The point of doing Mythic level raids should be the prestige that comes with getting them comleted as well as cosm,etics proving that you have

rather than power gaps

[opaque pewter]

You could still give that little edge too to not leave out an established playerbase. That's why the small increase that will only please the min-maxers is a good compromise; it will give satisfaction for those that don't seek the cosmetics, and it's not something that will make or break the passing grade of beating a boss for most people

[rain cave]

Mythic should have gear

Because part of the mythic cycle is that over time it effectively becomes easier

As people get loot from the bosses

If things capped at heroic, everyone would have to be as good as world first players to do it

Or mythic would be made easier

[cunning fossil]

You do not need gear to make it easier. That's what experience does

[rain cave]

Yes, you do

Lmao

[cunning fossil]

also yeah is that not the point of mythic?

I mean that even if you didn't have huge ilvl jumps for Mythic, it would stillbe easier via the mechanics

[rain cave]

How

[cunning fossil]

like if you're a mythic raider, you'll understand team comps, health thresholds, when to hold CDs and pop them

[rain cave]

What does that mean

[cunning fossil]

WAY better than the average player willbe able to achieve

What I mean is that if gear capped out at heroic, Mythic players would be apparent BECAUSE you need to actually be skilled enough to know when to hit those CDs, do those mechanics and coordiante with your group

[rain cave]

If heroic was highest ilvl then you'd have to be as skilled as a world firster

Mythic raiding would go down

[cunning fossil]

No you wouldn't?

[rain cave]

Yes

You would

Because you won't have gear helping to split the difference

[cunning fossil]

Mythic raiding wouldn't go down to those that just straight up want to do it in the first place.

Also, yeah, you kind ado need to be good at the game to kill mythics

but you don'thave to be world firsters

[rain cave]

Try convince the average guild to do a raid with no promise of gear

[cunning fossil]

because that implies a race

Everyone else is NOT doing a race.

Which means they can make mistakes on prog, have some unoptimized specs at times

[rain cave]

I agree more cosmetics but they really shouldn't be afraid to add power rewards

[cunning fossil]

Power reward are helping no one. It's a treadmill that doesn't help anyone. Mythic guilds having to do split runs is ridiculous.

[rain cave]

Power is fun

[cunning fossil]

wellyeah but it sis also stressful

[rain cave]

If you're complaining about gear that is copium to me, and I'm not even a high leve raider

[cunning fossil]

and too much power makes things trivial

[rain cave]

Then don't do it

Pick your Power

Poison

[cunning fossil]

oh fucking please

"LOL COPIUM" man shut up

I'm not cpomplaining abotu gear

I'm sayign that gear shouldn't be WHY you do mythic

PRESTIGE should be the reason

so you can BRAG about it

[rain cave]

With this line of thinking eventually it will be normal and heroic should be merged

[cunning fossil]

also it would lower the entry poitn for people

[rain cave]

M+ shouldn't have gear

Because bragging rights

[cunning fossil]

if would help get MORE people into Mythic raiding

[rain cave]

It wouldn't lower the entry point

[cunning fossil]

That's an entirely different fucking sentence and you know it

Yes it would??

[rain cave]

Just lower the entry ceiling

[cunning fossil]

entry ceiling what?

[rain cave]

How tf does it lower the entry level

Then

[cunning fossil]

If you hae all heroic gear, you are now set to go and try your hand at mythic and you ar not pressured to do so just for big numbers

[rain cave]

Same in current patch

[cunning fossil]

If you want to do mythic, it is because YOU WANT TO DO MYTHIC

not because you are chasing the numbers

[rain cave]

I mean that's a flawed argument I'd say

People do mythic to chase numbers

At least in part

[cunning fossil]

which is not a good mentality.

Are you understanding what I'm saying?

[rain cave]

For you maybe

[cunning fossil]

I'm sayign that it's a bad thing

[rain cave]

For you maybe

[cunning fossil]

"for you maybe" for everyone

[rain cave]

Nope

I like chasing numbers

I want the better gear

I want the extra trinkets

The legendary

[cunning fossil]

going "lalalalalalalalalallalala" at my fucking responses doesn't make you correct

[rain cave]

The tier

I'm not

[cunning fossil]

YOU CAN GET ALL THOSE THINGS IN HEROIC

[rain cave]

And I can get better ones in mythic

Making mythic easier

More drive to do mythic

[cunning fossil]

Mythic is made easier by just doing mythic

By learning fights

mechanics

[rain cave]

And getting gear from it

[cunning fossil]

THAT should be the "mythic made easier"

[rain cave]

Both

Even better

[cunning fossil]

because if you can out scale the place, what the fuck is the point?

[rain cave]

If you've out scaled it you're a god

[cunning fossil]

Christ never fucking mind this argument is going no where. I'm trying to give a new idea and you're just going "LALALALALALALALA" to it.

[rain cave]

I'm not at all

I'm just telling you that just because you don't like numbers and optimisation and chasing gear

Doesn't mean others don't

[cunning fossil]

you are you're literally just saying that it's made easier with gear despite me sayign that the easier to do mythic part should come from esperience

[rain cave]

And that maybe mythic raiding just.. isn't for you

[cunning fossil]

IT"S NOT ABOUT ME OH MY GOD IT"S NOT ABOUT ME NOT LIKING BIG NUMBERS>

LISTEN TO ME

[rain cave]

Which is an opinion

[cunning fossil]

holy mother of fuck just let me speak before you say something

[rain cave]

Considering everything else in WoW gets easier with gear + experience

Why not mythic

Mythic rewards are cream of the crop

[cunning fossil]

BECAUSE IT MAKES AN ELITIST ATTITUDE

Ok no stop. Let me finish my thoughts. Before saying anything yeah? Just let me speak

[rain cave]

If they're fully mythic geared I think they deserve a bit of weight lmao

I'll trust a mythic raider over LFRaid Randy any day

You can tighten ilvl brackets that's OK, but mythic should remain a gearing thing

Changing it would mean severe changes to the design, you couldn't just remove gearing from mythic

And the best players wouldn't feel as rewarded

Because there's literally less rewards

[ember blaze]

trinkets/weapons from raid should be on a vendor

[cunning fossil]

By making heroic the "top end" of gear it does a lot of things

1. It gives easier access to those who want to try out Mythic, as now they aren't tryign to grind out mythic for gear before just doing it.
2. THose who do Mythic are rewarded with cosmetics and it wiling turn encourage people to try heroic out.
3. It also makes it so that even mid season, guilds willbe willing to gbring more players into their guild sto fill out their roster, as now you don't have to pump the newbie full of mythic gear just so they can start.
4. The best players only see the gear as means to an end. They aren't "proud" of their ILvl or some shit. They're proud that they completed mythic. That's it, that's all their is to it.
5. Making heroic gear the highest level gear means that you know that the players who got AOTC achieves got it through knowing the mechanics, rather than paying someone to get them the achieve because the best players could outscale it to a decent degree.
6. It would bring overall toxicity levels down because now you don't need aridiculous amoutnof Ilvl to be deemed as aceptable to start out as.
7. lowers the ilvl gap from the beginnign to the end of the expac much more and stops it from getting ridiculous
8. More people can play the game without feeling stressed to do tougher and tougher content because of gear. Gear is a toll you use to beat the content, it should not be the reward for content.

9. I forgot to say this but it makes it so that you could maybe even do speedruns or something. A new competitive scene I guess that goes on through out the season rather than once at the beginning and then 0 people care.

[rain cave]

1. It makes mythic harder to access, as you can't get any higher gear to help you stat check a boss. Everyone must learn to be as good as works firsters.
2. I don't understand this people are already getting rewards and want to do heroic
3. Need to pump people with heroic gear now, but then that's harder because no mythic ilvl carry
   4.gear is fun, every raider I know likes gear. Ilvl is a big part of bragging rights and fun of gearing, do hard challenge get saucy gear.
4. No it wouldn't.
5. Toxicity Is problem that sorts itself out and is overblown, should not be in a discussion like this.
6. Just reduce the brackets?
7. Now everyone who doesn't have heroic gear is looked down on and nobody will take them. Gear is and always has been a reward.

Warceaft had always been about power rewards, it's what most people want

The best players get the best power faster

And they want power

Saying gear shouldn't be a reward is nuts

It is OK to have a massive power gap between players

Gear is the primary reward of WoW, has been since its birth

Nothing wrong with that

But if you don't like it might I direct you to guild wars 2

Sounds perfect for you

[cunning fossil]

Ok to your points

1. No, you do not need to be as good as world firsters because world Firsters are doing it because, oh, I don't know.. THEY'RE DOING IT FOR A RACE. The average player does not have to do that, and thus, can take it slower. They don'thave to be pin point precise as world Firsters, they can afford to wipe and try again and learn at their own pace.
2. Mythic could aware new colors, new mounts, variants that can ONLY be obtained from mythic difficulty. Hell, maybe the gear from mythic is way more extravagant than just being a recolor of the Heroic skin.
3. Like did you forge tthat my setting implies that Heroic is the max ilvl? YOu can still do those stupid heroic gear runs or whatever. or you could just... Teach the player how to do it on Heroic?....
   And even if you don't, you can still do the carries if the carriers allhave heroic gear and know the mechanics. It would only restrict mythic from being an easy carry mode.
4. Every raider likes gear because they know it makes things easier. But you know what everyone likes more? NOt having to constantly farm gear to feel finsihed SOme players want to say they're doing with acharacte rand maybe play a new one. esperience a new role or class or spec in the same sitaution to see how different it is. It gives them more options ultimately.
5. This is not a fucking response. WHy don't you say something with abit more substance.
6. Toxicity is not fucking overblown and it does not sort itself out. Exhibit A: "Noobs vs. Top-end players"
7. I said this as a minor thing honestly, but you know what reducing the brackets does?.... Oh my god, that's right. It's basically bringing HEROIC gear, closer to MYTHIC gear? Because instead of going from (simplifying numbers here) 0 to 13 to 26, you go 0 to 9 to 18, making the power gap between Heroic and mythic smaller. I'm just arguing that the gear gap should be 0.

(NOT DONE)

8. "Now everyone who doesn't have heroic gear is frowned upon" That's aridiculous argument because it willjust be straight up easier for people to get into Normal and then Heroic anyways. as instead of 3 hurdles, there's two.

[rain cave]

I just don't think you understand that gear is the main reward in WoW

[cunning fossil]

You can stillhave power rewards. I'm not saying to take them away. But unfortuantely, it isn't healthy for the game for them to be the main reward for the hardest content because it pushes people into believing that if you AREN"T doing the hardest content, you're not "optimized"

I said I'm not done SAInt

LET. ME. FiNISH.

[rain cave]

It can be supplemented, not replaced

[rain cave]

If you don't like the optimisation mentality don't engage with it

Play your way

[cunning fossil]

Also fuck you for saying this. DOn't fuckign tell me what game I ought to go to because I'm providing my own opinion on how to make the game better.

[rain cave]

And it's just an opinion

[cunning fossil]

Holy fucking christ Saint

OPTIMIZATION MENTALITY ISN"T MY POINT

[rain cave]

One that's out of touch with the raiders I know

[cunning fossil]

Optimization is still athing that willhappen in mythic

[rain cave]

I like numbers number go up me happy

I don't farm tmog much

I want gear

I want numbers

[cunning fossil]

Everyone like sto see number go up. Number can still go up by doing better at the raid

[crystal pond]

If it all about power rewards, then why so many ppl quit where there was a lot of stupid mechanics and lore?

[rain cave]

Not if heroic is ilvl cap

[rain cave]

Mechanics is power

[cunning fossil]

Never fucking mind man this discussion is not going anywhere. you're just fucking ignoring me and keep saying "GEAR IS THE ONLY REASONPEOPLE PLAY WOW"

[rain cave]

Not many people leave for story

I'm not ignoring you

[cunning fossil]

Yes you are

[rain cave]

I'm directly responding to you

Literally

[cunning fossil]

one of your responses to my fuckign argument was "No it wouldn't
how the fuck is that a worth while response

[rain cave]

Because carries would still exist

As you yourself pointed out

[crystal pond]

Mechanics in raids? Remember nzoth corruption
Was fun at first, and then its becamed just a grind

[cunning fossil]

I never said carries wouldn't exist.
But it would be less likely for carries to be the reason someone has AOTC

[rain cave]

Corruption wasn't just a raid mechanic

[cunning fossil]

My point is that if you have AOTC, it's more likely that you will hav actually done the raid

[rain cave]

It was a gear mechanic

[crystal pond]

Yeah and its sucked

[rain cave]

The people who but carries won't go down

[rain cave]

Acquisition sucked , but Corruption was fun af

A lot of people agree

[crystal pond]

Grind wasnt

[cunning fossil]

That's not the argument. My point is that it'll be harder to just be straigh tup carried

[rain cave]

Fire mage, arms or destro were nuts at end of bfa

[cunning fossil]

so you will actually have to DO something mroe aoften than not because

Geaer can't just outlevel the mechanics

[rain cave]

Which isn't the concern of the one being carried

Since that's why they get a carry

To be carried

[cunning fossil]

If no one can reliably get carried, what do you think they'll do?

[rain cave]

Any problems that exist from mythic would just move down the heroic

[cunning fossil]

Like I'mliterally saying that Carries willbe straight up harder to do

and therefore they'll hav eto pay way more money for them

[rain cave]

Prices will go up

More wow tokens for blizz

[cunning fossil]

and the numbe rof buyers will rpobably go down

and it willencourgae peopel to actually try

[rain cave]

More AH wealth gap

[cunning fossil]

If it becomes significatnly easier to try your hand at the achieve rather than buy a guild to do it for you, you can just...try the raid instead?

I klnow what a fucking depressing idea

PLAYER

ACTUALLY PLAYING THE GAME

THE HORROR

THE TRAVESTY

[rain cave]

My friends opinion

High never raider btw

Level

[cunning fossil]

You've never met em cuz you're not in the lower bracket of players.

Also I quite frankyl just don't give afuck what your friend thinks. I'm just done with the argument at this point

just whatever fuck it

keep mythic gear

keep players on thjat fuckign treadmill till they fuckin fallover

your life

[ember blaze]

what's the tl;dr

nothing wrong with mythic gear

[rain cave]

The lower bracket are the elitist ones?

I'm confused

The better thing here is more gearing avenues, if there's any new ones to be tried

Ik that gw2 has very rare drops from world content, that scale in drop rate with harder content

So maybe reward some higher Ilvl gear or tier tokens at a very low rate from other content

[cunning fossil]

TLDR: I believe that removing mythic gear would just encourage more people to do mythic because they want to do mythic rather than for the gear. Which shouldn't be the purpose of playing the game

[rain cave]

But as the difficulty increases, so too does the chance

[rain cave]

Why not both lol

[ember blaze]

this is already how it works

removing gear, just means you are deleting raiding participation

some people just want to raid

and that ends up being their main avenue for gear

[cunning fossil]

No it doesn't? Because you get gear to raid. Gear is a tool, it shouldn't be the end goal Something more permanent should be in its place

I never said you have to remove raiding gear? You can still very much raid and get gear that way.

[rain cave]

Tools can be fun though

[crystal pond]

Yeah sadly ppl doing all dangeons and raids only for gear
Onyl few doing this just for funzies

[ember blaze]

we're talking about a genre where gearing is the end goal for many

[rain cave]

Incorrect

We wouldn't do it if we didn't find it fun

[cunning fossil]

ANd I'm saying that I don't believe its a good thing to keep players on that treadmill

That's wht I think anyways

[ember blaze]

your premise i dont think makes sense

[rain cave]

Why can't both be happening here

[crystal pond]

And then ppl quit from the game because they have what they want and domt know what to do with it

[ember blaze]

specially when it already works that way

[rain cave]

I can raid for fun, and get gear I want

To raid more, which I find fun

[ember blaze]

that will happen no matter what?

I know people who literally only want to raid

[rain cave]

For more gear I find fun

[crystal pond]

A lot of gear farm is pain in ass

[ember blaze]

their main enjoyment in this game is raiding

and gearing isnt why theyre doing it

but because they find raiding fun

[rain cave]

Then you just don't like the content

Not the gear

[cunning fossil]

Removing mythic gear shouldn't hurt their experience then right?

[ember blaze]

some of those never set foot in m+

[crystal pond]

?

[ember blaze]

despite allowing them to get gear to make it easier

[rain cave]

Gear is part of the experience

[ember blaze]

It wouldnt hurt them

but it would hurt a lot more people

that arent them

[cunning fossil]

How?

[ember blaze]

because youre not going to magically make everyone else that type of player

where the full enjoyment is just raiding

I plan to get back to raiding in DF

[cunning fossil]

It doesn't hurt them because if they want the max level gear they can do heroic and do it.

[ember blaze]

i used to enjoy raiding

but i was also there for the gear

[crystal pond]

I mean some bosses is painful to flight, because they request raid answer. And a lot of ppl messing with this, and wipe happen

[ember blaze]

if gearing got removed, i would have zero motivation to raid

[cunning fossil]

I'm not removing Raid gear Tobi

[ember blaze]

and I just wouldnt bother making a 9 hour commitment every week

[rain cave]

I like raiding, I want to do higher level raiding,
I kill boss, get gear
gear makes me stronger, can tackle harder content
tackle harder content, I get more gear

If you shorten that gameplay loop or minimise it, you're destroying a core part of WoWs fun

[ember blaze]

youre playing a game where gearing is a main part to why most people play

[cunning fossil]

I'm removing Mythic gear and lowering the max ilvl so that you can just go raid and have fun and earn cosmetic rewards rather than feeling like you gotta grind

I'm aware and I'm note ven removing that

[ember blaze]

ok, remove m+ then

[rain cave]

Imagine if borderlands just capped gear after first playthrough but promised a hat if you did it again but a lot harder

[cunning fossil]

Brother what?

[ember blaze]

you want to remove the feeling that you gotta grind

and m+ is the most effective tool to grind for gear

and you just made it 100x better

by removing mythic gear

[crystal pond]

But, i will agree with a fact, that if boss not fun to fight, a lot of ppl dont want to farm it
And even a good gear drop dont gonna help it
Saw a lot of ppl going "oh no, not this raid pls"

[rain cave]

Raiding is not hard to get into because of gear

That's just Pub talk I think

[ember blaze]

specially when you want to lower it down to heroic

gear isnt what's keeping people away from it

a lot of people just dont want that time commitment

[rain cave]

Getting 20 or so people in a call for 4 hours every week is hard

But it you go looking you'll realise others are there

Who want to do it

[ember blaze]

raiding is exhausting

[rain cave]

And once you're in that environment, then raiding has a natural progression to it anyway

[crystal pond]

Just go into high lvl locations as low lvl

[rain cave]

Every week you just raid with the guild

See how far you get

Get some gear, then push a bit further

Gear is core to most raids progression

As it helps them eek out bit by bit

Whilst they learn

It's almost like a roguelite

[cunning fossil]

raiding is exhausting but won't lowering the ilvl also help inreducing the stress of "Oh no I ddin't get a mythic level gear this week" or whatever and therefore just make life simpler for everyone?

[rain cave]

Incremental power increases over multiple runs

Not really

Just means you get no fucking rewards for your time

[ember blaze]

yeah imagine wiping 3 hours to one boss

and then you finally kill it

for nothing

[rain cave]

Or guild falls apart on second last boss

And because it wasn't a full clear

You spent weeks for nothing

[rain cave]

Great vault?

[cunning fossil]

Not for nothing

[rain cave]

https://tenor.com/view/gayixiangs-gif-23818783

[cunning fossil]

FOr something more cosmetic.
And the satisfactionof actually killing that boss.

I just think it'll be a healther state for the game to think that way isntead

rather than seeing everything as a number.

[rain cave]

You're the only one seeing just numbers

It's multiple for me

I like numbers, I like cosmetics and I like fighting against a challenge

Please don't remove one of those

[crystal pond]

To be fair, i do agree with low ilvl items, at least for some raids, because its becoming impossible to enter when its high ilvl
And you need to go, and farm this ilvl to enter this dumb raid – and this isnt freaking not enjoyable at all
Or even better – farm item with mechanics that give you acces to the raid
Let me play at least on low ilvl game omg, let me taste it atleast

Also
Dont forget that when game becoming your second job – its stop being enjoyable too

Im not against numbers, because ppl love it, i love it too as well more over cosmetic stuff, but boi
Not able to enter the raid because you didnt farm some dailys that give you a higher gear is suck

[rain cave]

Removing mythic gear won't change that

Are you going to prog hours of stress for a fucking cosmetic lmao

That's just bad design to me, cosmetics are just visual they aren't tied to the gameplay loop of WoW

Gear on the other hand

[crystal pond]

Some ppl do, because some gear look so sick

[rain cave]

Who lol

[crystal pond]

Go to youtube and look asmongold vids with tsmog

[rain cave]

Asmongold gets carried for free

Through everything

He is not a player representative

Lmao

[crystal pond]

First watch vids
Its not about asmongold tsmog

[austere gazelle]

That's why the covenants should have been about cosmetic and spell " transmogs "

[austere gazelle]

Those were the challenge mode I think, the M+ of WOD. it was quickly forgotten. Insane difficulty for cosmetic rewards

[tropic trail]

Have you considered just getting good

[austere gazelle]

That's the whole point of Mythic actually. The prestige comes only for the hall of fame achievement. after that there is no point doing mythic but for the gear ( to tackle the next content patch easily after).

[tropic trail]

Maybe if more people want to take part in mythic raiding, they should, you know

Get gear

And learn to play better to deal with the increased difficulty

The REASON there are bragging rights and prestige attached to high difficulties is BECAUSE it requires time and effort

It requires you to actually do the gearing and know fights and understand your class

[austere gazelle]

Indeed 🙂

[tropic trail]

If it's just basically given to you for walking in, then there is no prestige

There is no bragging rights

[austere gazelle]

but there should'nt be bragging 'rights'

[tropic trail]

Eh, if people want to be proud of beating their high keys or mythic raiding, that's fine as long as they aren't dicks about it

[austere gazelle]

Be it gear, or cosmetic, if you lock it behind mythic, other people will whine because they can't "get it "

[tropic trail]

Then let them whine

Some people just aren't going to be able to do some stuff

That's fine

The path to be able to do that stuff is there, they can learn how to walk it if they want

Other people do

[austere gazelle]

Truth is, the easier system would be to bring back the emblems of Heroism or whatever, that you collect in heroic raid*, and once you have a substantial amount of them, you can buy one or two mythic gear pieces

[tropic trail]

Like the Dinars

[austere gazelle]

No, the dinar does not allow you to have mythic gear if you don't run mythic raid

[tropic trail]

It allows you to buy gear which you can later upgrade

Immediately, no, but eventually

[rain cave]

I'd also be open to letting some higher level gear be basically farmed up to from other content

[tropic trail]

Like, I am fine with it if the route to gearing is a gradual process of working towards a particular, specific piece in a deterministic way

RNG loot is also fun and it should NOT disappear

[rain cave]

Like doing your weekly zone quest allowing a drop of gear or currency

But not much

Like low rates

[tropic trail]

But being able to say "Okay, I'm X% of the way towards getting my shibbledibble"

That's a good system

Even if you gotta do some lower stuff in order to do it, it's at least something

It isn't in an ideal state right now, but it's a solid idea as a core

[rain cave]

Or if we apply to sl leggy system for example

What if the base legendary items dropped randomly from all sources, but can also be created by professions Like now

But harder content gives increased drop ilvl/chance

[austere gazelle]

That's a walk in the good direction. ( and we need the seal loot roll to come back too )

[tropic trail]

Like don't get me wrong here I will absolutely be one of the first to violently shit on Blizzard for their mistakes and they have an extensive history of them, and even DF still has me a bit wary, but there 100% are aspects that they HAVE listened to people about and started to improve on, and systems like the Dinars or other gear token systems existing in some form I think is a good idea

You guys seen the stuff about Storm Assaults yet?

[rain cave]

Wonder if they should add some kind of uncommon or rare drop from bosses when you don't get loot that let's you choose another vault item

[austere gazelle]

And you could improve the mythic raid drop to by upgrading them into " warforged " item when you have enough emblem or whatever to upgrade it, that would be a reward for the raid running mythic and farming them

[tropic trail]

I'll be real

If they don't call it dragonforging and give it a dope graphic

They are missing the fuck out

[rain cave]

There's no war

It's peace forging

[austere gazelle]

TruceForging :d

but yeah, DragonForged would be a neat tag for an item

[tropic trail]

Make it work like Anima somewhat

Varieties of items with different names/themes and a little line of theme text

They have a value attached to them, 5/10/15/25 whatever

You can dump them into a central location where you do your dragonforging

Each tier of upgrade takes a certain amount

We don't have the whole gearing system yet AFAIK so who knows

I know that they'd said something something crafted gear will be able to be Mythic equivalent

Which I REALLY hope is actually true and not a lie or like the Shadowlands one where you can only have one piece of higher tier crafted gear

A good example was New World on release

The memory of working together with a guild to funnel materials to our crafters and making server-first high tier items was great

[livid walrus]

she jinxed it

@uncut vault if you want the exact location

[crystal pond]

I wonder how full df map will looks like
Cause there ALOT stuff missing
Like ruby life shrine is just a mountain on map

[deep pawn]

You can craft mythic ilvl gear but it's the same as now with an extra step.

You loot the item from a mythic raid and then commission a crafter to make it.

It's mostly an RP flavor mechanic and something to make the armor crafters actually do something

[subtle oar]

Hi, I'm a CE Mythic raider c:

Now get blocked you toxic ass

[tropic trail]

My guy your argument was that difficult content shouldn't reward you with, you know, the rewards for doing said content

Cosmetics are well and good and transmogs are a nice system to have, but the primary reason people want to do that content is typically because it gives rewards and as something they can be proud to have accomplished with people they like doing things with

[subtle oar]

And that can be better accomplished by removing gear drops, not ever nerfing the fights and giving exclusive cosmetic rewards

[tropic trail]

Or just keep the gear drops and the cosmetics

And if people want them, then they can earn them

You want the thing? Great, take the steps to get the thing

[subtle oar]

Again, hi, I'm a CE Mythic Raider. Your argument of "Get gud", doesn't work here and is extremely toxic.

[tropic trail]

Don't really care about your bought runs my guy

If you want the rewards for doing high end content, then... learn how to do the high end content

It's not a difficult concept

"No you can't tell people to learn how their class functions and how encounters work, that's toxic!!!!"

Absolutely zero chance if you're at the level you claim to be that you have not once had someone who needed to work on what they were doing in order to improve

I do think that some form of bad luck protection in the form of things like Valor, the Creation Catalyst, Dinars, and the Vault are good ideas. They aren't perfect, but they're good idea. But the core still remains that if you want the rewards from content, then you should actually do the content

And sometimes that means that you actually do need to learn how to do it and practice and put in effort

[subtle oar]

Bought runs

Yup, toxic.

<@&299347348847329281>

[tropic trail]

You're claiming you do mythic raiding and then saying it's toxic to say that people should understand their class and the encounters they're taking part in, and your only response to having it pointed out is to ping moderators and claim it's toxic

[subtle oar]

"Anyone who disagrees with me is just a boosted Andy," yikes. Imma go get breakfast.

[tropic trail]

lol

[rain cave]

How tf is he being toxic

Sorry bai but you're completely out of it here lmao

[tropic trail]

Rude, sure, I'll grant that

[rain cave]

"Get good" isn't 'toxic' it's a joke telling people to put in the bloody work

[tropic trail]

But again the core here is literally just

If you want rewards, you can and should learn how to get them

[rain cave]

Yes

[tropic trail]

That's the whole point

That's WHY they feel rewarding

[rain cave]

Also if you removed the gear from mythic

[tropic trail]

Because you put in the work, you learned stuff, you did the thing

[rain cave]

So many people just wouldn't do mythic

[tropic trail]

Sometimes that means practicing rotations

[rain cave]

and it would die

[tropic trail]

Sometimes it means re-gearing to get certain stat breakpoints

[rain cave]

Like do you see guilds raiding for tmog?

[tropic trail]

Sometimes it means you watch video guides on encounters or you run the same fight multiple times

I mean, to be fair, yes

[rain cave]

There's already enough issues with keeping guilds together

[tropic trail]

I've seen guilds do older raids just to farm certain transmogs

[rain cave]

That's older raids

Not raiding

[tropic trail]

Or people want to get certain gear from current stuff because it looks cool

But the primary point even then is still the gear and the achievement in doing the thing

[rain cave]

Imagine progging 4 hours for a chance at a tmog piece

Mythic would be a desert

[tropic trail]

"Get good is toxic"

[rain cave]

😭

[tropic trail]

Okay guess the guild disbands at first wipe

Lmao

Never examine what went wrong

Never find out if anyone might need some coaching or practice

Don't help eachother to improve as a guild

Just see your friends struggling and tell them it's all fine as you wipe 47 times

[deep pawn]

I find 20m mythic antiquated in 2022. I've heard so many people say they only do it for the prestige not the gear so I get where some say just remove the gear and make it a permanently hard cosmetic reward vs how they do it now

And the reason "get good" is seen as toxic is cause it's often used as the last shot some elitist will use before they block you when they were the one who decided to pull 3 extra packs for the tank who then dies cause the healer had gotten used to the pace the tank was going

[tropic trail]

Yeah but that's fairly clearly not the case here, whereas the guy crying toxic straight up pulled the "I'm sleepy, bye" and left

So tbh I feel 100% justified in saying that, if they even do have Mythic CE, it's bought, because there is not a guild on the planet that does higher end content that has not had to do practice or help members get geared up or any form of coaching

[deep pawn]

I don't bother with mythic cause screw committing to something multiple nights a week and being reliant on 19 other people, but I thought people considered jailer a joke at the end of s3?

[uncut vault]

this is 100% toxic lmao

literally discrediting someone's stated achievements because they disagree with you

someone saying "I have done the current format, and wish it would change" is not an admission that they never did it

[tropic trail]

Someone who has supposedly done high-end content saying that it's toxic to suggest that people practice and improve their skills and learn fights, however, absolutely does give some indication that they might not be as legitimate as they claim

Because, again

[uncut vault]

or, bringing up the idea that someone isnt skilled into a conversation that has nothing to do with skill is toxic lmao

[tropic trail]

Name me literally one high end guild that has never done practice

[uncut vault]

they said nothing about not doing practice or working hard towards downing mythic fights

in fact, the entire premise behind the conversation was that those would be the sole factor behind mythic raiding

rather than the awkwardness of raiding in mythic to do mythic

[tropic trail]

They argued for the removal of gear as a reward from mythic content

[uncut vault]

and that if the whole game was centralized around heroic being the highest level of gear, on equal footing with the highest level of M+ gear, that mythic could be focused around the skill adn the achievement rather than the desire for stats

a format which sees frequent success in other MMOs

[tropic trail]

Or we could just keep LFR/Normal/Heroic/Mythic as the format and implement a system where you can gradually acquire specific pieces of gear alongside an upgrade system, so that you do have a path to gearing to help get your foot in the door to higher content, but the majority of it is still on you the player to put in the work, understand your class, and understand the content you're trying to do

[uncut vault]

Or hell, you dont even need to look beyond WoW: people still do mythic+ above the maximum item level, because it has rewards like the teleports and the prestige title

[subtle oar]

^^^^^^^^

[tropic trail]

Which they've already started to do a degree with Valor and the Dinars and the Catalyst

[uncut vault]

literally nothing mentioned excludes the requirement to put in work for gear or understanding your class in the relevant content

that has literally ntohing to do with this conversation lol

[tropic trail]

Other than the part where the majority of the reward for the actual high end content would be removed

[uncut vault]

Yes, and as a result, skill would be more of a requirement

rather than gated behind gear that comes from that very same content in an awkward reward loop

there's a reason why world first raiders spend thousands of real life currency to get BoEs as soon as possible, because gear is a massive factor in clearing a raid even at the highest end where they are objectively skilled

[tropic trail]

If you're doing challenging content

Then you should be receiving rewards for it

[uncut vault]

Nobody has disputed that

[tropic trail]

And that includes gear

I mean, they literally did with the idea that Heroic should be the highest tier of gear

[uncut vault]

"I want different incentives for the highest end content" is not the same as "I want no rewards for the highest end content"

please actually read the calm conversation you jutted your way into before talking

[subtle oar]

This is my entire premise

[uncut vault]

Anyways, this third black dragon faction is really interesting

[subtle oar]

Deathwing Loyalists?!

[plain violet]

They seem to be more akin to "old ways".

But that could be interestingly tied effectively to the "voice of Neltharion" NPC we have seen..

I also appreciate that the lava and earth aspect of black dragon is used more again.

[crystal pond]

Imagine if neltharion gonna get back as a angry spirit

[cunning fossil]

Oh my God this

BUT topic aside

Death wing Loyalists?

Sounds something similar to the vein of Rag loyalists

[pulsar minnow]

Oh I swear if they bring back Rag this expansion I would be so happy. Yeah I know we've killed him twice blah blah blah but with all the elemental stuff this expac he'd fit perfectly

[plain violet]

Angry daddy spirit would be Neltharion..

[pulsar minnow]

Not necessarily? They could just be fulfilling what Neltharion wanted to do. Part of that involved Ragnaros

[plain violet]

I respond by that to KTO. :)

But I doubt for now his spirit is reachable, he must be somewhere on the Shadowlands.

And, I hope, free of corruption.

[cunning fossil]

Feels good being an Engi

[cunning fossil]

To be honest it would make sense

Dark Iron loyalists are talking about bringing him back

This expac is elemental themed, at least at the start

And rag is just a cool villain

Also we've fought Kelthuzad three times now

Why not Rag?

[rain cave]

I don't understand all this "tOxIc" stuff

This conversation has not been in the slightest

I feel it discredits your argument if you just go "that's toxic cya"

Like regardless if your side

Gear is the central indicator of progression in WoW pretty much. And power is the core of the fun in WoW

If you think there should be less power acquisition then that's just not warcraft

Even WC3 had power acquisition

I'd argue we should add more levels to gearing

Give people more things to work towards than less

Because if all I had to do was raid heroic and be fully geared then lmao

Also if mythic dropped no gear, why bother rerunning it?

No mythic gear means number of mythic players goes down, the bar of entry doesn't get easier, and the number of mythic progression goes DOWN over the course of a patch

Instead of people catching up over a patch and killing mythic with gear

People who push keys past 15 are a minority, people who do world first are a minority

Mythic is a minority, most people are normal or heroic

So why gimp one of the potential draws to Mythic?

Why remove an avenue of fun?

[subtle oar]

Real rewards

[subtle oar]

Gear gimps Mythic. Blizz constantly nerfs it over the course of a patch to get more ppl in to it, thus devaluing the effort of those who did it unnerfed. Remove gear from Mythic, give it exclusive cosmetics, and never nerf ti and you'll see a better engagement

[rain cave]

No because then it's harder and has lost a major incentive

Gear is the realest reward

[pulsar minnow]

I don't think you'll see better engagement with mythic if that's the case. A lot of people don't mythic raid not because they don't want the rewards but because they don't have the time or aren't skilled or coordinated enough to do it.

[rain cave]

Gear is what allows more accessibility to mythic over time

[rain cave]

Yup

And removing gear just kills off a ton of mythic guilds and makes it harder to get in to

Transmog is the 2nd most valuable reward, sure

But it's still far behind gear

There's a severe case of echo chamber in some places

Transmog wasn't even a thing till cata

A big impact of seeing current tier mythic gear is seeing it and going "that guys fucking stacked he can probably pump a heroic singlehandedly"

Power is primary

Nobody would get hyped for an expansion if all the xpac selling points were cosmetic

Wow is a game, and as such gameplay comes first

And gear is part of gameplay

The prestige of a mythic transmog is a bubble anyway

Even 1 patch later it's not taken as as much of a badge of honor

[sullen dawn]

I feel like gear needs a major rethink

Chasing ivlvls isn't fun. One thing I think they should do regardless is make it so each transmog only comes from one item source

It devalues gear having multiple different items looking the same jmo

[subtle oar]

Nope

[subtle oar]

Nope. You are just ignoring all the arguments and going LALALALALALA.

[rain cave]

I'm not that's what you just did

You just plain refuse to acknowledge the fact that people like mythic gear

[rain cave]

I mean what about things like tier lookalike though?

So other classes can use a tier look

[rain cave]

It does, but removing it isn't the play.

[sullen dawn]

I'm talking about normal items

Like 3 different chest pieces having same transmog look

[rain cave]

Chasing Ilvl isn't good, it should be progressing through ilvl

[subtle oar]

People will be hyped that the only reason to go into Mythic would be fore bragging rights and exclusive cosmetics and a fight that does not get easier over the course of a patch, it will remain difficult likely until the end of the xpac. AND on top of that, you'll have everyone being able to have the highest ilvl gear. Toxic manchildern can mald for all I care.

[sullen dawn]

Yeh there's a few issues with gear imo I'm kind of thing them up which I shouldn't be

The transmog thing is a separate issue

[subtle oar]

Incorrect.

[rain cave]

You just call everything not your opinion toxic..

I'm telling you right now

I would hate it if they removed mythic gear

Because a big part of my aspirations for mythic, is the gear

[subtle oar]

Cool. You're a minority whose toxic towards the majority. ❤️

[rain cave]

Your balance argument isn't even related to gear either

[rain cave]

You're literally like 4 levels of minority deep my guy

[tropic trail]

Oh right

@subtle oar You gonna actually post that Mythic CE with the guild you got it with?

[rain cave]

Tmog enthusiast, mythic raider (apparently), fanfiction (I think?), uses their character as an avatar

And more

[tropic trail]

Brony

[rain cave]

Most people just... play the game to get gear

[tropic trail]

Profile back image

[rain cave]

I'm trying to keep it game related lemmi

I'm not about personal attacks

Just wanting to point out the fact bai is in a minority in the WoW community

[tropic trail]

Attacks? It's their profile back image on Discord

[rain cave]

I'm not saying you're attacking

I'm just saying I'm not using it in my point

Because then it would look like I am

But yeah bai is very very very niche

Which is fine

But I'm no pvper

I have my opinions on pvp but at the end of the day if pvpers enjoy it

Who am I to complain

I get pvp in other games

My main interest is raiding, and so I'll defend that

I like gear, and want to gear my character to mythic ilvl

That's a big aspiration to me

Bai can call it toxic, doesn't change the fact that its what most WoW players want

[tropic trail]

Ah, I see

He's been at this for 4+ months

[rain cave]

There are improvements that can be made to gearing, this is true

[tropic trail]

And gotten called out for it by other people repeatedly

Lmao

[sullen dawn]

So I believe ilvl shouldn't increase per patch. Ideally not per oexpansion either but that probably isn't possible without removing ilvl

[rain cave]

Just reduce the brackets

[tropic trail]

And yeah nah, removing gear from mythic is just flat out a bad idea. I'd be fine with it if gear Heroic/Mythic has a method of acquisition that you can do in portions, something along the lines of Cosmic Flux/Valor where you're acquiring some sort of currency to make an item or upgrade existing items, because that means that even if you run your M+15 or whatever you're doing, even if you get screwed on loot, you get something

[sullen dawn]

We need all items to no longer be stat sticks

Every item should be serve a purpose behind stat balancing

[rain cave]

Bringing back unique effects is what I would change

[sullen dawn]

Yes

Sets legendaries and trinkets do this

[rain cave]

I really wanted ubrs in the m+ pool

[tropic trail]

I think that from what we've seen so far of Dragonflight gearing, namely the professions producing supposedly Mythic-tier gear, the Storm Assaults dropping weekly tokens and also a currency, those are good things

[rain cave]

Because of those effects

[sullen dawn]

Rings should have no stats and purely give a niche utility

[tropic trail]

So I'm not feeling right now like DF is gonna be bad on gear

But

This is also Blizzard

So there's always a degree of wariness

[rain cave]

No rings are good at curbing out secondaries imo

[sullen dawn]

It's gonna be like 3 more expansions before they solve items tho lol

[rain cave]

Trinkets are good for utility

[sullen dawn]

Ok fair enough. But stat balancing items should be limited to like 3 slots

[rain cave]

Perhaps gems could be a solution?

Or something similar

[tropic trail]

Just to clarify

[sullen dawn]

Oh good idea

[tropic trail]

What're you meaning here?

[rain cave]

Adding utility to other items

Effects based on slot

[sullen dawn]

Items drop with effect and you simply choose the stats you want via gems

[tropic trail]

Like, slots other than Trinkets also having meaningful passive effects that aren't just stats?

[sullen dawn]

Yes

I know we can't just copy elden ring but check gear there

[tropic trail]

As an idea it's not bad but it'd be difficult to balance

[sullen dawn]

Every item feels super valuable even if it's trash

[rain cave]

There's a ring from Legion with auto attack damage

[tropic trail]

And for what it's worth

We're actually getting that

[rain cave]

Ubrs has proc weapons

[tropic trail]

Like

We've already been seeing proc equipment in DF

[rain cave]

Sanctum has those unique weapons with no stats

[tropic trail]

Engineering gear, Inscription staffs

[rain cave]

Pumchcard is cool

[tropic trail]

I dunno if they're gonna be GOOD

[sullen dawn]

Yes since the 8.1.5 they have slowly been moving in this direction

[tropic trail]

But they do exist

[rain cave]

The mechagon rings too

Build a setpiece style

[sullen dawn]

Yep

[tropic trail]

I absolutely don't think that purely proc-based stuff is a good idea though

[sullen dawn]

Mini sets in general are cool

[tropic trail]

The end of BFA was basically that

[sullen dawn]

Two piecers

[rain cave]

Oh yeah add other effects too

[tropic trail]

And christ on a cracker that sucked

Every class that relied on auto-attacks wasn't really that class it was just a haste-stacking vehicle to trigger their trinket

[sullen dawn]

Well if people didn't have to chase entirely new sets every patch I think you could temper the power levels

[rain cave]

Well tbf corruption was fun to play when it was going but in a over the top "bruh what the hellll" way

[tropic trail]

Razorcoral, the one trinket with the cannonballs, the corruption beams

There were others too

That part sucked

[rain cave]

Fated raids could keep old sets relevant

[sullen dawn]

I'd rather chase 2-3 interesting new items for my build per patch than higher stats on a functionality identical set of gear

[tropic trail]

¯_(ツ)_/¯

Higher tier gear is going to naturally have higher tier stats

[rain cave]

Multiple raids viable in one tier, with multiple tier set options to mix and match

[tropic trail]

That's just how upgrades work

[sullen dawn]

Yes that's fine. I don't mean removing stat progression entirely

[subtle oar]

@cunning fossil Have they datamined all the things Engi can make? I'd love to see all the ammos and scopes I can use for my Hunter

[sullen dawn]

Just making it the secondary thing that balances power but isn't the 'reward'

[tropic trail]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/dragonflight-professions-engineering-specialization-previews-328450?webhook

[sullen dawn]

They could be very minor effects like a ring that makes invisible while you're in doing a jump (5s cool down)

[tropic trail]

Actually

You know what'd be dope?

Azerite armor-like system, but done as an alternate customization system in the same vein as gems

[sullen dawn]

In BFA a problem I had was I got sick pirate trinkets in initial patch which I loved as part of my rotation but I had to abandon them next patch

[tropic trail]

Socket your gear, put in customized abilities with situational or proc-based bonuses

[sullen dawn]

Cos I couldn't upgrade them to next patch

So I felt like part of my 'set' was taken away

Even if I couldn't keep those trinkets for ever, having them viable for the expansion would have been nice

[tropic trail]

Azerite armor as a general concept was nice and I liked many of the abilities that it gave access to, and it allowed people to make some unconventional builds that were otherwise not great, but the implementation was a bit lacking

It'd be interesting to see something like it return in a way that people can directly influence and customize

[sullen dawn]

Yes

[tropic trail]

Oh shit

[sullen dawn]

It just helps add further to player fantasy anyway

[tropic trail]

Did you see the Storm Assault thing?

Pseudo-Torghast powers returning

[sullen dawn]

Aye

[tropic trail]

Not quite the same, but I like that they didn't just totally scrap what we had from Torghast

[sullen dawn]

One system I'm disappointed w e havent seen come back is the AI enemies from islands in bfa

They don't scrap many systems entirely imo

[subtle oar]

Nope

[tropic trail]

You gonna post that Mythic CE there Bai?

[sullen dawn]

Covenant sanctums are probably garrisons under the hood

[tropic trail]

What do you mean here?

What like the opposite faction AIs?

[subtle oar]

<@&299347348847329281> Hatred, bigotry

[sullen dawn]

The enemies that behaved like players

In open world would be cool

A tribe of them invading a town

[tropic trail]

🤔 What would they bring them back as?

[sullen dawn]

Well not every mob would be like that

[tropic trail]

Tbh Islands weren't a bad idea but the grind on them got a little excessive

[sullen dawn]

But you could have AI characters in open world

[tropic trail]

They did have some sick cosmetics though ngl

[sullen dawn]

Islands were almost amazing

[tropic trail]

One of the swords off one of the islands was work like 50k just for the transmog way back

Probably worth less now tbh but I still wish I'd nabbed one

[sullen dawn]

If islands were simply a cosmetic farm people would have loved them

[shrewd glen]

@subtle oar Please stop pinging mods over trivial reasons.
@tropic trail Please stop antagonizing other users

[austere gazelle]

Every cosmetic looking good enough will have a high price if it comes from a content a few are willing to farm ad nauseum

[subtle oar]

<@&299347348847329281> Please deal with this hateful bigot. Trying to use my identity as a derogatory attack on me.

[sullen dawn]

Guys come on relax

[subtle oar]

I'm tired of hateful jerks who get off on attacking people because of their identity.

[austere gazelle]

wtf is going on in here

[rain cave]

We aren't...

[subtle oar]

Some toxic elitist malding I'm a Brony and disagree with him

Demanding I "prove" I'm a Mythic Raider

[tropic trail]

Baifeng got mad earlier because I said that if people want the rewards from higher-end content, then they should learn the skills needed to do the content

[frigid crater]

Stop arguing

Proceed to DMs if you wish to continue

[tropic trail]

I'm not even arguing my dude, I've been talking with Toby

You wanna point a finger, point it at him

Yeah this one

This thing is sick

[subtle oar]

Nice Transphobia

[rain cave]

What...

[cunning fossil]

Unsure. But I think they almost have?

[rain cave]

Bai the mods said enough. We're done

I'm done

[upper pasture]

I was like oh what’s the red names mean. It’s they got muted lol oof.

Anyways I’ll have to look through that engi post

Honestly I’m less excited for the class revamps than the profession revamp lol

[cunning fossil]

Tbh completely fair. Classes we know exactly what to expext

Profs not really

[upper pasture]

I suppose, but also like class changes also come with every expansion prof revamps don’t. This is probably my favorite part of DF

[plain violet]

I am excited too for the classes.

The professions seem interesting but I dunno how it will be on practice.

[rain cave]

I'm hyped for both equally I think

Professions finally being a proper thing you can explore as basically solo gearing content of your choice

The class revamps allowing some more nuance and directed builds

[crystal pond]

So
Anyway
About rag and Neltharion
I hope they dont go a bring rag back, even if its a real cool boss, because it will be Kelthuzad 2.0

[upper pasture]

Oh I’d be laughing if rag comes back since that was literally one of the things I said they would bring back again.

Since every time we seem to deal with Azeroth and the elements Rag has got to return

[crystal pond]

About Neltharion: i wish there will be spirit of him, because freaking ysera getting back - number one
There alot of neltharion stuff - number two
Two dummy dumb dumbs cant decide who will be the leader of the blacks - number free

[upper pasture]

Honestly with how much stuff has to do with him I’d be surprised if we don’t see spirit of him or throw backs explaining stuff

[earnest stump]

So how likely is it that if they ever let people dragonride in old zones, people could potentially make an addon that'll let you design your own race with own fly-over points and a timer so you can actually race people with dragonriding?

[plain violet]

I would love to see good Neltharion but that would be difficult to portray... BUt yes. There is a lot of Neltharion and I am eager to read, play them all.

Addon.. unlikely, I think. But people would clearly try to do it..

[rain cave]

Echo of neltharion?

Like sindragosa

Or maybe going back in time to seek counsel with him

[plain violet]

Maybe that.. 🤔

But I wonder how we would react...

[upper pasture]

what if by going back in time we become one of the many voices he heard and helped edge him closer to madness.

[livid walrus]

I just noticed something cool! they changed C_GossipInfo.ForceGossip to be default true rather false in DF

as exmaple. it didnt direct me to vendor. but showed me a dialogue before

[uncut vault]

Yeah I think that's a bug, at least hopefully haha

cause it's very irritating on flight masters

[austere gazelle]

They are. A faction of the Dark Iron were trying to ressurect him during the DI intro

[upper pasture]

trying and doing are two different things

[mossy sapphire]

I made this little map to help me find my way around Valdrakken (as the guards aren't giving directions yet):

[dense plover]

Far as i can tell, most of the stuff is in 2 areas - crafting or shopping

so it wont be too hard to navigate

[livid walrus]

idk i kinda like it 😄

did you find the npc you looked for ?

[uncut vault]

Yeah I did, it's very interesting

[livid walrus]

i wonder what happen if we give him 10 keys

it says it will summ the first boss of DS

https://www.wowhead.com/beta/npc=187306/morchok should summ this one it seems

a rare elite

[ancient adder]

fAmIwY

[mossy sapphire]

Yeah, I haven't explored the other bits to the South yet.

[tropic trail]

So hold up here

Dragonflight has no Archaeology content and it may potentially return later

But we've got the Dragonscale Expedition with a bunch of exploration and archaeology themed stuff doing archaeological things

In an expansion that has profession revamps as one of the major points

[rain cave]

Yes

But they said they do want to revamp archeology

But I guess that the typical archeology rewards fit nicer until the expedition thing they were doing

[rain cave]

Archeology is about discovery I suppose

And normal professions don't translate to that directly

[livid walrus]

Mog/void storage in green dragonflight area

[dense plover]

As TheBigSaint said, they’re just unsatisfied with the actual gameplay of archaeology and I certainly can’t say I disagree. Especially with the new changes, it just isn’t very fun

[rain cave]

Yeah, I think these renown tracks kind of work for archeology stuff because you're exploring and unlocking things

Whereas if its a profession it can be "farmed"

Imagine if Indiana Jones kept camping tombs for relic spawns lol

I think if they were to ever introduce a system that was like stories outside of the main narrative with their own rewards archeology could be a good one for that

Like how destiny's expansions have side stories related to the current battle pass there

Imagine if down the road, alongside having the current tier and story going on. You could take a breather and go unlock some high res new qiraji set with some archeology people digging up and scavenging ahnqiraj

[dense plover]

Archaeology absolutely could be some kind of lore system thing where you collect artifacts and bring them to a museum and can read about the time period as you collect more archaeological items - like how artifacts had expanding lore in Legion

[rain cave]

Eso does ministory things I remember too

[dense plover]

The problem is there is no good way to make archaeology remain relevant throughout an expansion unless you define the archaeology items as a currency

And if it’s just a system for farming currency, that’s no fun

[rain cave]

I reckon archeology could then just be it's own thing independent of the expansion

Or if they update it per patch like other professions, I guess there could be some interesting raid interactions?

Like expert archaeologists study and learn about the history behind the raid, and can bring some relics or something for minor buffs

Or filling in raid buffs from classes you don't have

[tropic trail]

I'll admit part of my issue with Archaeology is that like

If it's just dead

Can Dwarves at least get a replacement racial

Please

Like just something

[rain cave]

I think profession racials need a thematic replacement anyways

2 of alliances allied races have black smithing racials

[tropic trail]

I'm still wondering how much of an impact they'll actually have

[dense plover]

^profession racials should be less specific now that the way professions work is changing

They could do stuff like increasing your chance to gather higher quality ingredients

Or increase your skill when crafting a certain type of item

[tropic trail]

That's more specific, not less

[dense plover]

Well, less specific as In not specific to one profession

[rain cave]

I think he means profession agnostic

Yeah

[dense plover]

Like not only smithing or only alchemy

Also archaeology definitely can’t do buffs or it becomes mandatory

[tropic trail]

Dracthyr got

Discerning Eye (NYI): Increases your Perception by 50. Perception increases the radius of tracking Mining and Herbalism nodes, and the chance of finding additional rare materials when gathering.

So I wonder what the actual impact of +10 Prof skill is gonna be in dragonflight

Since it's the level, not specialization stuff

Wait

Lol the bonuses aren't even uniform

Beautiful

+5, +10, or +15

[austere gazelle]

Where is the Great Vault? :p

[mossy meteor]

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/feedback-mages/1289842/66

[cunning fossil]

oooh

[deep pawn]

MAGES DO EXIST

[cunning fossil]

only took 3 weeks?

[deep pawn]

https://twitter.com/geoffkeighley/status/1561745014455054336

Geoff Keighley (@geoffkeighley)

📣 We have a date! 📣

THE GAME AWARDS
Thursday, December 8

Streaming live around the world from Microsoft Theater in LA.

Hard to believe this is our NINTH show.

We've been working all year to bring you something very special.

Likes

4293

Retweets

672

Twitter · Aug 22, 2022, 4:00 PM

Did we already know 12/8 for the game awards?

or is this more confirmation of the leak?

[rain cave]

What leak?

[deep pawn]

https://www.wowhead.com/news/unconfirmed-diablo-iv-prepurchase-and-dragonflight-launch-dates-leaked-328369

the wording of the tweet sounds like they just finalized the date of that

[upper pasture]

9th TGA 9th expansion? hmmm...

oh more so for D4. it would be pretty cool to get D4 but i'd be kinda already busy with DF to play it properly

[tropic trail]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/747546147609903266/1011308878677422081/unknown.png

[deep pawn]

It's more as corroborating the rest, since that came out before Wrath classic pre-patch was confirmed

[tropic trail]

The leak

From the same guy that leaked DF originally

And two dates have now been confirmed accurate

Aug 30th and December 8th

[deep pawn]

Though apparently Game Awards are on the same Thursday in December a lot so it could be an educated guess on that one

[tropic trail]

I mean

The guy was spot on for Dragonflight

And we're now two confirmed dates in

And the release would be in line with Shadowlands release

[upper pasture]

i'm not following CoD or Warzone alot but is there really a warzone 2 coming out?

[rain cave]

that's not game awards though is it?

[upper pasture]

right side bottom thing

[deep pawn]

So either the raid is tuned to be done in one week and we only have 1 preseason week or it's tuned to be done in a couple days and we have 2 preseason weeks at the start

[upper pasture]

it says d4 is gonna be announced at TGA on dec 8th