Feedback on current state of the game

[brave furnace]

I'll be honest with you, I read through this whole conversation, and I saw several good points from you and others as well.
But in my opinion, I think it would be really cool to somehow make basic dribbling more common

Instead of using emergency mechanics the entire time

But what I miss about this game is that it's very limited in terms of dribbling. There are VERY FEW dribbles, we can't do nutmegs or backheels or something like that

Lacks content..

[pastel cosmos]

If you read through the whole thing, I appreciate you my guy. You just had comment nr. 1000. So there was a lot to digest 😄

I don't have a problem with the base moveset being expanded at some point. I just know that we need to reel in the problematic aspects of dribbling as they stand now, before there should be any focus on expanding it.

[brave furnace]

Yeah I agree on that point

My opinion might not make much sense or might even be rubbish, but: I wish this game was like Rocket League in terms of discovering new mechanics. In Rocket League, you don't see visually buggy mechanics or mechanics that clearly look like glitches. But even so, there are MANY mechanics that weren't intentional but make sense to appear. Here in Rematch, it's the opposite.
New mechanics ARE discovered, which is cool, but they're discovered through bugs or animation errors... which doesn't make for a good experience in my opinion, even if it's easy to defend against or whatever

I think it would be great if the game had much more movement, and that would lead to many more combinations. And players who are really good and dedicated to the game could depend on that, as the game would encompass a much deeper dribbling system

tournamets players or high-elo players are kind of forced to discover somewhat buggy dribbling moves due to the lack of movement options the game itself doesn't offer

Unfortunately, this is something that won't be fixed or balanced anytime soon. The game was released prematurely; that was the mistake

It will take them a lot of time to develop this system in a way that makes it truly fun and allows you to constantly discover new things

[gaunt basin]

Its only possible in a game like Rocket League because it is physics based

Nothing in rematch is physics based

[brave furnace]

Yeah you right, I didn't want to compare the mechanics, I wanted to compare the depth that each one offers by having more movement

Even if its simple yk

[gaunt basin]

You could see some of the same things happening in Rematch if the engine was changed to be physics based and you had more freedom of movement on the pitch

We have neither

So unfortunately this is just how it goes

[brave furnace]

Yeahhh

😔

Perhaps Rematch has this HUGE limitation because the ball is glued to the players foot

I mean I dont mind but this is a thing

[gaunt basin]

its part of it yes

Rematch is entirely just made up of different animation states

And the animation states change your characters behavior and hitbox

Thats just what it is at very basic level

[brave furnace]

Yep

It will be very complex for them to fix all of this

With a system like that

[gaunt basin]

Im not sure it really is fixable there will almost always exist some form of exploitation of systems

Like pickup range with cold cut

You can make it more robust though but emergent mechanics will likely keep being found with every new patch for a good year or two

This is not necessarily a bad thing a lot of people just dislike emergent mechanics

Because they are by nature unintended uses of intended systems

If that makes sense

But yes I also hope they fix desync and add much more on and off-ball freedom

Skill expression is dopamine

[pastel cosmos]

Huge team plays are dopamine.
Everyone in sync moving up the field, doing support runs, setting each other up for a big finish, sometimes without even saying a word.

Concentrated team game nectar.

[wild sierra]

This is a yap but It is a interesting dynamic between balancing the two categories of offense vs defense and solo vs team play. You have people who want to do it all and people who want to fill a role and work with others to do perfect plays. You then have both sides who want to have a untouchable offense and and unbeatable defense. It goes without saying that in a perfect game every offense should be able to be stopped, every defense should be able to be broken, where half the time you need to work with your team, and the other half of the time you have to rely on your own skills to solve a problem. I think for what it is rematch does do this (for the most part) and I am excited to see their roadmap sometime here in the next week or so.

Personally i think what is presented to us is that in tournaments and high skill ranked matches defensive team play is mandatory in order to win. To the extent that most offensive plays are derived from "send volley to top box and guess for game". In lower skill matches you do see the offensive solo take more priority but you do still see more offensive team play with plays that arent meta that still succeed well due to the lack of defensive team play (or team play in general). Regardless sloclap has to consider what the majority of players do and want and most people wont give feedback, are in the lower skill bracket, and just want the game to be fun so i see sloclap following those people more. In a perfect world sloclap would want everyone to have fun and im sure theyll try to do so but they can only do so much ya know?

[analog coral]

I agree with you.

My view on it is...a lot of players want the game to be reduced to just one way or just the other way. People who want to limit a lot of options will argue that it makes teamplay less important when the game should be about playing as a team, but playing as a team has ALWAYS at every rank in every patch been a very viable method, as much of a tool to use as is dribbling or long volleys or whatever. Like you said, Sloclap seems to want to prioritize allowing for many different options and many different situations, and despite the game having some clearly definable issues, they are mostly succeeding.

But I've also seen them make a patch (Patch 3) that panders heavily towards the slower teamplay kind of style while phasing out the more aggressive or creative plays. I'm glad they're moving once again away from that direction. I think it's important to critically examine these topics so that something like that doesn't happen again, and the game can expand itself rather than clam up

[tropic knot]

Dribbling needs to be stronger anyone disagreeing has never either watched or played at the highest level of play

Defending dribbling is very easy if u have any brain cells

Passing and team play will always be meta and strong but there should always be that uncommon solo plays and actually being able to dribble pass 1 or 2 defenders

[pastel cosmos]

So funny to see the last few comments being thoughtful articulations with nuanced views that you can reflect on, no matter which "side" you are on... And then comes the slop comment from Slurp 😂

[eternal geyser]

bro popped all of his word of the days

[tropic knot]

Luke 1v1 try any dribble I’ll personally show you how easy it is to punish😭

It’s literally just a skill issue and everyone that whines is just dogshit, dribbling needs to be buffed, literally no one uses it in comp

[pulsar spire]

if u fix netcode/desync/iframes from the desync especially, u realize how underpowered dribbling is lmao

[pastel cosmos]

Three things are certain in life; Death, taxes and Slurp stomping his feet using "Everyone that disagrees with me are bad and dumb" as an argument. 😂

Looks at these;

#1464386801291628624 message

#1464386801291628624 message

While I don't necessarily agree with everything in them, I can respect them and reflect on them.

Bring something useful and nuanced to the table if you want to be part of the conversation.

[wild sierra]

i said what i said because the problem i see with the discussions in the feedback channels around buffs and nerfs to either dribbling or defense in general is that there is a bigger picture with how all of these elements work with different levels of play and team work. it might need a buff in higher level play but then it will be abused in lower skill play where is it already seen by some as abusable. The solution to these problems can not just be nerf this and buff that. sloclap will have to find a way to manage the balance between not just offensive and defensive plays but also solo and team plays as well. for example some say I should be able to get past one person with dribbles. Well then hypothetically speaking if you can get past one person then couldnt you get past every person in the team now as long as you dribbled them one at a time? that is something to consider. Even if things do go that way you would now have 1 person saying the game is great and 5 people now saying the game is not great. Sloclap will have to ultimately follow the majority of players which are usually a more casual, less competitive, and less skilled audience whose priority is to have fun.

[gaunt basin]

I generally agree with you Numaks, but while it is something to always keep in mind for complexity of balancing, at least from the example you give, lacks a bit of context as well so I would like to add it:

• No, you cannot dribble the entire enemy team 1-by-1 under the proposed solutions, yes it is something you should consider, but in the concrete case this does not happen, the closer you get to the enemy box the closer together defenders will be, and defenders will be able to collapse on you much easier by function of proximity to enemy box, in by far the most cases. If there are only 2 defenders currently in box, then it is the same situation as now, you can get lucky or do well and dribble both for a shot opportunity.

• Dribbling is a fundamentally harder skill to learn than defending in this game, defending has a lot of arbitrary assists that help you perform your defensive actions, as well as sporting lower committal options than dribbling does, defending is largely passive by just holding defensive stance at a distance to someone, and the biggest mistake you can make is overcommitting by tackling too early, this is a lot easier to learn for said casual players than dribbling ever will be/is, so if someone were to get good at the harder skill, they should be rewarded for it and go up in ranks. (This is the point contesting it being abused in lower ranks, by far and above, easy defense gets abused much more because of assist features)

It's important to note that casual players will always complain regardless of gamestate

But anyway to add onto the 2nd point there should be no way to "abuse" a higher skill mechanic, because getting good at it should shoot you up the ranks so you are no longer in said lower ranks, and it takes time to learn, and you should be rewarded for spending the time to learn

It is okay to balance with 2 main ideas in mind for casual players:

• They will almost always complain regardless of game-state, and have low overall knowledge of the game

• They are generally bad at the game

You should definitely balance for lower tiers of play, but you should not directly nerf skill ceilings of high skill mechanics for lower tiers of play, like, ever, because in proper matchmaking players with the higher skill ceilings of these mechanics should not exist in lower tiers of play anyway

The main difficulty in striking balance is to make the game not feel too frustrating to lower tiers of play, which mainly comes from proper matchmaking and solid in-game tools to learn how to actually play the game if they care to

[wild sierra]

I agree that alot of problems would be easier solved if you had a game with a perfect or even a great matchmaking system.

Does sloclap have this? Perhaps not. Will they have it? Ehhh hopefully

[pastel cosmos]

this comment lacks some nuance, so I'm just gonna add to it.

• Not being able to dribble the entire enemy team is how it should be.. Dribbling 1 man at a time is definitely something that can happen. Even if you face 2 or even 3 from a collapsing defense, as you would say, it amounts to skill, and not luck, which you mentioned for some reason..

• The Defensive toolbox consists of tackling, dash defensive stance and jumping.. All of it base game functions. Opposed to that on offense where you have passing, shooting, lobbing, the entire basic dribble set and all emergent tech including straight up exploitative elements backed by zero stam dribbling...

And you are saying that using the most basic of tools actually intended for use, is getting "abused" much more. lmao bro. Having relative ease of entry, is the very least needed to keep up with the total offensive toolkit.

It's important to keep two things in mind;

• Higher tier players complain just as much as anyone else, no matter the gamestate.

• They are generally tunnel visioned and speak with very high self entitlement, being dismissive of everyone else and insisting their needs should be met above everyone else, despite them only making up somewhere between 3-10% of the entire playerbase.

Now why is this important? Well, you can ask yourself if you believe the game should cater to a minority now, resulting in a diminishing experience for most people or have the devs focus on making changes that will retain the playerbase from the ground up, for the people that will be introduced to the game for the first time when the game inevitably goes free to play.

The high end players can easily adapt and use their skills to play at a high level, even with those changes that takes care of the game experience as a whole.

New people coming in cannot do this and it's paramount that they have a positive experience while making their way up if we want the game to have any chance of surviving another year

Having better matchmaking is definitely something that needs to be implemented, but it cannot
make up for the fact that low elite mmr ranked players or even lower (even discounting smurf accounts) can still be very skillful at being abusive with dribbling for example, so suggesting it's a catch all solution is just wrong.

[gaunt basin]

At this point I think youre just being contrarian to try and do a "gotcha" 😅

At no point was the claim that better matchmaking alone is a fix for everything, only an explanation to why it helps even it out

[pastel cosmos]

Not at all, just adding perspective

[gaunt basin]

As for defense getting abused

Yes, defense being as easy as it is, is what makes it abuseable

This is the entire reason a lot of players just stack 4 man in box to make it impossible to break through

Or the 3v3 ball stalling

There are plenty of examples

When I say abusing I am not specifically speaking bugs or tech or whatever

Its abusing something being strong

[gaunt basin]

The wording seems like an attempt at speaking the same way I did but just doing it from the defensive POV

[pastel cosmos]

Just a systematic way of responding to everything you said to add another perspective

[broken sigil]

He was totally copying you

[wild sierra]

I think ultimately its gonna come down to sloclaps roadmap and how many players quit over the direction they choose. Though given how recently theyve been adding more dribbling i think they are at least considering both sides. Hopefully good thing will come

[gaunt basin]

https://tenor.com/view/i-think-so-butters-stotch-south-park-s5e3-cripple-fight-gif-22139083

[eternal geyser]

add nuance is hilarious

also your so called nuance is worded to be very heavily biased against higher tier players

also jumping is not a very commonly or effective method of attacking so thats just not true

and repositioning and chasing does not count if thats what you mean

and lastly the amount of moves doesnt matter as much as the strenght and viability of the moves in which defense greatly is superior to offense in that regard

[pastel cosmos]

#1464386801291628624 message

"
It is okay to balance with 2 main ideas in mind for casual players:

• They will almost always complain regardless of game-state, and have low overall knowledge of the game,

• They are generally bad at the game

"

What is this then? Go ahead.. Say it then 👁️ 👄 👁️

[broken sigil]

Why are you using someone else's quote to attack someone?

What are you even asking??? lol

[gaunt basin]

How is this bias towards them thats the entire balance Philosophy for lower rank players, you have to balance around them being worse at the game

[pastel cosmos]

Your whole reply boiled down to them having to basically deal with whatever they are served. They are dumb, bad and should not be listened to.. And whatever backlash the high tier wishes bring with them, should be mitigated by matchmaking which you don't admitted wasn't really a fix afterall.

Which again circles back to my arguements here

[gaunt basin]

I never said lower tier players should not be listened to, just that their opinions on the game tend to be uneducated so what you should focus on is making the game not too frustrating for them to play and give better in game learning tools

And better matchmaking for sure fixes a whole lot of what you mention

You intentionally misinterpret what i say to label me in a way that makes me easy for you to dismiss

And so i say

https://tenor.com/view/cat-gif-15732275568813898827

I have had enough of nonsense

[pastel cosmos]

Still waiting for an answer. Why should the experience be catered for 3-10% of the playerbase instead of the 90%+. And what will be most healthy for the game?

[gaunt basin]

I fear i have responded to this exact thing several times throughout

This is not the gotcha you think it is

[pastel cosmos]

I don't think in "gotcha's", that's silly. I operate with arguements and counterarguements to clearify subjects.

Show me where you have answered this?

[gaunt basin]

Bro you act a lot like you do idk what to tell you

You are incessantly frustrating to discuss with

[pastel cosmos]

I mean, if you go into every discussion with an pre-emptive thought that you are gonna be right, I can see how you would feel that way.

That's beside the topic though

[gaunt basin]

Im not gonna scroll back 200 messages but one such answer i gave was that the game intends to be esports focused, in which you HAVE to balance the game around higher skill ceilings and comp play but of course having the game be enjoyable for those who have yet to learn it

Or even literally in the message about lower tier players i say you should definitely still take it into consideration for balancing

But catering to them is a dangerous path

What will be most healthy for the game is to have proper matchmaking, allow skill expressions, individually and teamwise, do not arbitrarily limit high skill play styles just because, only for the extremely boring or irritating outliers (like 3-2 formation)

There is not a singular esports game that caters entirely to their larger playerbase

[pastel cosmos]

The game is currently not fit for Esports.. And is leaking players badly.

The saving grace is going to be going free to play.. It's going to be paramount to retain as many of these people as possible.. Yet you want to cater to the smallest sub-group now and let the 90% deal with whatever gameplay experience they are left with as a result.

If that happens not many are going to bother to stick around and expand the esports aspect and in extension the higher tier play for those that trickle through to the top.

You have to lift from the buttom, not the other way around.

I am not saying that there won't come a time where the game should be molded more in the direction you want, but this is absolutely not the time to do that. It requires are strong core and stability in the playerbase.. Even if that means 90% of it being towards casual/mixed players.

If we do what you want, the leaking will just continue until there are no people left.

[gaunt basin]

Again in the very first paragraph you misinterpret everything im saying

Im not sure i should care to read the rest

"deal with whatever gameplay experience they are left with" is horribly dismissive of every time i try to explain that obviously you should keep the lower tier players in mind

No im not just saying fuck you go learn how to play the game

Why do i try

The entire point of fixing matchmaking is specifically to help lower tier players have even matches and not have to face the kind of shit experienced players pull off, literally NO ONE is saying leave them with whatever gameplay experience they have, i repeatedly say that should not be the case for them

[pastel cosmos]

You say that, but emphasize that it should under no circumstance come at the cost of any compromise to the wishes of the highest tier crowd.. Which doesn't flux since the majority of those wishes (dribbling being the main "offender") having a negative impact on the experience of the largest player group..

What I am saying is that the aprroach is wrong. Build from the bottom up, let the high tier adapt now, and adjust for them later.

[gaunt basin]

I emphasize that it should not come at the cost of destroying what little solo skill expression the game currently has because the existing dribbling repertoire is bad, and i think its crazy to think that new players dont also want to dribble

Besides if we talk about largest player groups as the core argument, i guarantee you the larger part of all players want dribbling to be good and offense to be better than defense

[pastel cosmos]

The like upvote ration on this post tells a different story.

[gaunt basin]

Thats a logical fallacy, you have a lot of points i also agree with but i vehemently disagree with this one, because 70% of what you say makes sense does not mean the remaining 30% automatically follow

[pastel cosmos]

Defense should always be stronger that offense. Otherwise you will trivialize goal scoring.. Which would be a massive blow to the game

[gaunt basin]

Thats what most people want actually, at least casual players

They want to do cool shit and score

[pastel cosmos]

Yes, but it has to be meaningful. Doing cool shit should be something special.. Otherwise it quickly just becomes trivial and boring

[gaunt basin]

I dont want scoring to be easy necessarily, defense has a place, but it also should be skillful to stop a well executed offense

[gaunt basin]

Yes, it has to be intentional, thats the entire thing im trying to say, doing cool shit like dribbling should have high skill Ceiling and skill expression so you can have those cool moments, dribbling around 2 dudes who miss tackle on you and give it to your mate free on edge, he shoots backboard, you pick it up and score while GK is down

Kneecapping it will only make it feel nigh impossible to have those moments, even if youre good

And that makes 0 sense to me

Let people be good at the game and show it off

Its not that deep

[pastel cosmos]

But you just said that offense should require less skill than defense. Wouldn't the skill ceiling be higher if more of it is needed to effectively beat the defense?
:

[pastel cosmos]

No one is talking about making it impossible. Just don't make it trivial.

[gaunt basin]

Wat

In what world is that what I am saying

[pastel cosmos]

No one is stopping anyone from doing that

[gaunt basin]

First of all I am projecting what most people would want, not me, second of all this entire time I have explained that I want main offensive mechanics like dribbling to be skill based

[gaunt basin]

Well thats where you are heading with dribble nerfs 😅

[pastel cosmos]

Game is dying. We should be worried and put everything into turning that around.

[gaunt basin]

I completely agree, I just disagree with your approach to it

Not my first rodeo

[pastel cosmos]

The one thing we agree on.

ish

[gaunt basin]

Ish 😄

[pastel cosmos]

Well, there have been things where we overlap in our views, so agreeing on disagreeing is not the only thing

[wild sierra]

I wanted to reiterate the earlier point that if you want a esports scene you actually need to cater to the casual audience more than comp players. Yes comp players need love and yes the game should be tailored to more comp mechanics and ideas the higher the skill ceiling goes but it goes like this

Tailoring the game for casuals leads to

Large audience leads to
High view count leads to
Sponsorhsips leads to
Higher prize pools leads to
More comp players leads to
Larger esports scene leads to
More attention leads to
More players

Tailoring the game for comps leads to

Smaller audience leads to
Lower view count leads to
No Sponsorhsips leads to
Lower prize pools leads to
Less comp players leads to
Smaller esports scene leads to
Less attention leads to
Less players

Not saying anyones right or wrong or disagreeing with anyone i just wanted to put this out there. Also while sloclap wants to have an esports scene the devs have gone on recorde to say the intention of this game is to be more of an arcade game. Not to say you cant have both but yes they will most likely try to prioritze the casual audience which they should imo even if it hurts higher level play in the short term.

I do admit watching high level play in tournaments is a bit crap and i honestly woukd rather see high level dribble plays as a means of breaking the meta defense it would make it more exciting

[eternal geyser]

lukes arguement of why ignore the 90 percent is dumb

its a highly exaggerated and harmful idea

sure there definitely is a low percentile of incredibly good top tier players

but there is a heavy chunk of the playerbase that can play the game at a decently high level

they arent fucking idiots

so to say we should not forget that the majority of players are these low tier low skill players is just wrong especially since there are so little players as compared to before

there are more people who know how the game works and plays then there are complete noobs

[wild sierra]

That does remind me didnt sloclap release a chart showing player base stats? That might be useful to pull up

[eternal geyser]

that was for the beta

i think unless tehres a more recent one

but yeah the average player isnt some hopeless idiot who needs to be catered to with braindead explanations

they need systems and mechanics that feel balanced properly integrated and worth their time to learn but still be enjoyable

also i just want to point out to start a point that the game was at its all time peak in player count when offense was clearly stronger than defense

not saying it should be an extreme like that where offense greatly trumphs defense but its clearly more fun and enjoyable for the casual players that you love to say the game should be centered around

once they released patches that greatly reduced stamina and the speed of the game overall did it see the highest decline

again not saying yes dribbling op and can be spammed no skill just saying in both a high level and casual the game is at its best when its very slightly favored towards the offense(51-49)

[pastel cosmos]

Thank you. Very valid addition to the conversation

[eternal geyser]

yeah except the most popular esports games tend to be incredibly mechanically dificult and strategical with a very high learning curve with is very clearly not catered to casuals

[gaunt basin]

Not to re-engage in the conversation here but I do also think that its just a huge misunderstanding because catering to casuals makes the list he presented not viable, catering to casuals will cause the game to ultimately be more shallow and it will quickly plateau when a lot of them start actually wanting to learn how to play the game, and promptly leave because of how hollow the game is, and then you're back to the same diehard only players still playing but less of them now because game is in a worse state for them

[eternal geyser]

I also dont know why we are so scared of making competitive games competitive

like the people who truly really only play this game casually either just queue quick matches with friends or are contempt with being low ranked in ranked bc they know they dont play the game like that and obviously dont expect otherwise

[pastel cosmos]

Wrong. Creating a comfortable and stabile playerbase is goal nr.1. Above everything. We need to get more players and retain them. This will only be done by making the general player experience good. When this is done we need to tinker to expand the higher end of play and accomendate the players making their way to the top.

[eternal geyser]

wrong

[gaunt basin]

Nono, its generally correct, but the approach is wrong 🙂

[eternal geyser]

not really

a lot of games retain their players by sort of learning their niche or audience as the game comes and catering to the one that is either the larger majoirity or is more in line with the games core values

like fighting games have tried being casual and beginner accesible more and more

but theres definitely a limit

[gaunt basin]

Oh for sure

[eternal geyser]

otherwise you get a 2XKO game

where its way too catered

and it dies on arrival because its strayed from both audiences too much

and it does everything wrong

[wild sierra]

I actually do agree on the point that we do need depth for casuals to invest in the game and yes it was for the beta that the stats were revealed. I bet they may show it again in the roadmap

[gaunt basin]

I only really agreed with the general player experience and stable playerbase, but I personally think high tier mechanics have to be present on first launch for them

Only tinkering after the fact will cause game hollowness and mass exodus

[eternal geyser]

plus general player experience hardly ever involves any sort of balancing of mechanics

its mainly the game not being buggty and unplayasble

and having an actual sense of progress

[gaunt basin]

Yes like I said, you only really dont want the game to be too frustrating for them to play

THats the main focus

[eternal geyser]

yeah which is why netcode and refining alot of the weird collision behaviour and ball behaviour would be the best way to refine the players feeling of control over their performance

and things like holding the ball and palying for time should be revised

casuals players will care more about the bs they felt like was out of their control or the games fault due to bugs or unintended mechanics

[gaunt basin]

Hopefully they do, be interesting to see what spread we have nowadays

For sure much higher % in elite

[eternal geyser]

not that the game is balanced more for higher tier players

[gaunt basin]

Besides with proper matchmaking they wouldnt even run into the bullshit happening at higher tiers

[pastel cosmos]

No. You absolutely do not let the experience for 90% of the playerbase be an afterthought, it's the main priority. When that's in order you can start tinkering for the remaining 10% in the high end.

[eternal geyser]

yeah and more often then not its something for them to use as inspiration or to be aspired for

people like the idea of progressing adn getting better at a ganme

[gaunt basin]

Again you completely misinterpret it

[eternal geyser]

yeah he does taht alot

[gaunt basin]

Not letting the game be too frustrating for them to play is the main focus

As was literally said

Not an afterthought

[eternal geyser]

it was like the first sentence too XD

[gaunt basin]

Please read man

And also still sticking to the 90-10 figure after Lewis entire rant

Im not sure you really read any of it just cherrypick things out

[eternal geyser]

i think he finally blocked me

but yeah i think making very broad assumptions or trying to just very clearly only play into the extremes of sides is really bad for discussions

[pastel cosmos]

No, you are not blocked. I don't mean this in a toxic way, but I don't think much of what you say adds much value to a conversation.. So I don't spend time on it

[eternal geyser]

sounds pretty toxic to me

[gaunt basin]

No clearly you only find value in things said when they agree with you

[eternal geyser]

takes that disagree with you are seen as no valuye

when they are agreed and discussed by everyone else

[pastel cosmos]

I have been engaging with you a lot , despite us not agreeing on most things

[eternal geyser]

cause he hasnt gotten tired of calling you out for either cherrypicking or just miscontruing someones arguement

[gaunt basin]

But never have you called much of any of it valid or whatever else

Im just the main opp guy

Most of what I say you just call me stupid in whatever way fits the paragraph

[eternal geyser]

you also like to think you have some sort of magical way with words that you feel the need to "add nuance" to peoples additions

and then you just end up saying the exact same thing with 100 added words

which literally does nothing helpful and it ends up making the conversation circular

like yeah its fine if you want to share your own thoughts and interpretations of other people ideas

but theres literally no point to be like oh yeah i can add nuance you clearly didnt type it correctly but I can

and then just regurgitate the entire thing back to them its very patronizing and not helpful

[pastel cosmos]

I have said multiple times that there are certain things we agree on.. And that it's good but we want to attain the same goals but in different ways.

The very fact I spent so much time on the conversation with you, is because we represent opposing views. While I see you often as lacking a bread perspective, I think the conversation we have is important. Even if we disagree

[gaunt basin]

You dont make me feel that way when a lot of it is cherrypicking and intentionally misinterpreting what im saying 😅

A lot of it feels as an attempt for either a 1-up, a gotcha, or attempt at diminishing value in points by making the author look stupid

[eternal geyser]

oh he also loves to play the op card

and insult people and then when someone insults him he goes

this is not important to the convo please move on

XD

its so bad for creating a nice environment where people want to have actual discussions and give feedback

[wild sierra]

@craggy veldt do you think sloclap will show us a overall ranking again like they did with the beta? I thought that was nice to see and id like to see it again.

I think this discussion has at least helped me get a better picture of the overall arguements from both sides. Its definately a tough cookie.

[pastel cosmos]

I don't want to be callous and I mean this in a mild way, but I don't really care how you feel. I say that because no one is forcing you to engage in the thread that I made.. If you or anyone don't like the way I communicate, you are free to stop.

I try to always stay on topic (while other people try to drag it off-topic),
I won't call you names or anything and I only give back the same energy I am given..

I appreciate finding common ground, presenting nuance and even agreeing to disagree, but I am not gonna hold back if we have a discussion on a topic that holds importance to us.

If we butt heads in a discussion, it's in the nature of a debate to present arguments and counter arguments, if you observe that as being 1 up attempts, gotcha's or something else, that's on you brother.

[eternal geyser]

If your constantly saying not be toxic or not to be callous

Your being toxic and callous brother

[gaunt basin]

The very last part of this is a great way to put away all responsibility from oneself

Im sure youre great at taking feedback

Because I assure you, your way of discussion has near nothing to do with how an actual debate goes, at least not with how you've discussed with me 😅

So I'll throw it back into your court and say maybe some self-reflection is due

[pastel cosmos]

You can throw whatever you'd like, it's not gonna change anything.

[eternal geyser]

Ooooooo

Sick burn

[gaunt basin]

Classic narcissism response

[eternal geyser]

https://tenor.com/view/rpx-syria-mic-drop-gif-19149907

Hey!

Don’t talk to the op like that

(He’s op btw I don’t think he’s ever mentioned it)

[gaunt basin]

Next to the name btw

[pastel cosmos]

Are we gonna transition into amateur psycho analysis now? 🙄 How about we get back to talking about the game. This is just silly and off topic

[eternal geyser]

LMAO

what did I tell you

[gaunt basin]

😭

[eternal geyser]

The second he gets insulted

I think it’s time to make a bingo sheet

[gaunt basin]

You bit right into the amateur psycho analysis from like 20-30 minutes ago thats crazy

[eternal geyser]

Deflection incoming

[green hemlock]

nah I think it's gonna be the big beautiful wall of text

[eternal geyser]

Gonna have so much nuance

[pastel cosmos]

I clearly struck a nerve with you, and that's fine.. You can feel whatever you need to feel. But you might want to disengage for a while if it makes you this tilted.

We can talk about the game, that's fine.. But all this is just your little circlejerk edging each other on trying to insult or make me angry.. Which ain't happening.

[eternal geyser]

Deflection confirmed

Holy nuance

[pastel cosmos]

And Lewi is angry that I don't give him attention lmao

[green hemlock]

LMAO

[eternal geyser]

Not really I prefer it

I don’t like having to constantly re explain and type my points

[pastel cosmos]

It's kinda cute, but let's back to the game boys

[eternal geyser]

Oh he’s actually mad

He complimented me

[gaunt basin]

Alright I was gonna bite but ill say this instead

[green hemlock]

I think what he's trying to say is that he thinks you're cute
to add some nuance

[gaunt basin]

Luke you are impossible to have any meaningful discussion with when there is disagreement because of your discussion strategy, whether you do it unintentionally or not I do not know, but when you are consistently incapable of improving on things you get called out on several times it comes to a point

If what you truly want is meaningful discussion I would do some serious self-reflection on how you approach said discussions

[eternal geyser]

Ok next prediction

[gaunt basin]

You are welcome to give me a wall of text saying you dont really care what I think but this is just my advice

[eternal geyser]

He’s going to repost his like points with the copy pasted wall of text

Except they will exclude the points he disagrees with that everyone else liked or has advocated for

On to actual discussion

[gaunt basin]

In fact it may be a strategy in itself to continuously do the same things you get called out on to ragebait and devolve the conversation into what it is now so you just "win" or whatever but its really genuinely terrible if what you want is genuine good discussion

[wild sierra]

Honestly i think everyone has already said and acknowledged everyones points and have agreed/disagreed with them. At this point we are continuing in circles out of entertainment

[eternal geyser]

Yeah this thread is kinda complete

[gaunt basin]

Some are, I am just trying to give personal advice

Whether he takes it to him or not up to him

[pastel cosmos]

It's okay you are trying this rhetorical device, but it's neither factual or effective.

I constantly call for conversations to stay about the game, I don't want to waste time on this off topic nonsense. No one is being forced to be here. If you don't like it move on. If you want to talk about the game, we can do that

[wild sierra]

I think that might be better in dms but as you have seen its probably not wanted

[pastel cosmos]

I agree that this isn't leading to anything productive atm

[gaunt basin]

Its okay, I have learned trying to talk to you about the game is a very fruitless endeavor, so I shall stop wasting my time unless urge bites me

Have a good evening

[pastel cosmos]

You are welcome any time you'd like. you too

[gaunt basin]

I probably wont like it but it is unfortunately in my nature to say something when I see something egregious

[pastel cosmos]

Yes yes, you've made it very clear you have a hard time dealing with other perspectives than your own.
We can call it a day for now and move on.

I will post the updated talking points here one of the coming days and add some of the reflections made.

[eternal geyser]

BINGO

[gaunt basin]

https://tenor.com/view/just-when-i-thought-i-was-out-they-pull-me-back-in-michael-corleone-al-pacino-the-godfather-gif-19249100

What I have shown is a clear distaste for my own discussion points to be cherrypicked, taken out of context, skewed in meaning to fit the opposing agenda, or made out to look stupid to discredit my points

[eternal geyser]

Don’t do it bro

[gaunt basin]

I will not accept projection on this

[eternal geyser]

He’s actually rage baiting you

[gaunt basin]

I fear so

[eternal geyser]

He realized he doesn’t have anything to add to conversations so now he’s trying to high ground you

[gaunt basin]

Been trying that bro

[eternal geyser]

Yeah but if you respond to it he will actually think he won somehow

[gaunt basin]

Oh he is allowed to think that I just won't take the slander laying down personally 😅

[short relic]

@pastel cosmos Hi where did you see the devs talk about this (*Dev's have confirmed
they are working on no stam dribbling and changes to stamina in general)
I would like to read it if you have that information

[pastel cosmos]

Sure, gimme a sec it was in another thread

[pastel cosmos]

#⚽｜rematch message

It's very little, literally just this.

[shrewd compass]

have they decreased player speed overnight with a shadow patch or is it just me? because my character does feel slower

[short relic]

Thanks, looking forward to it.

[pastel cosmos]

Np, glad to help

[plush hedge]

this guys points are hilarious

😭

[urban cosmos]

They have, they've gotten into the bad habbit of nerfing things without telling us its happend, 5 times now from my recelection.

Mostly to do with stamina

[shrewd compass]

video game companies really can't keep their hands of things that just work nowadays

[old rain]

To me, they know very well that whatever they were tinkering with was working. I've always suspected that the reason they mess with it is precisely so that things start to go wrong; I still haven't figured out why.

[pastel cosmos]

I am not a fan of this. Making changes without informing people is not good.

I also feel like player speed was at an acceptable level. It shouldn't be any faster, for sure, but not necessarily slower either.

[broken sigil]

Yeah it was a subtle change but it really interfered with my ability to defend dribblers because I cant turn around as fast anymore

And like

They KNOW people are gonna get mad about it because they CHOSE to hide this information

bad pr is deadly for sloclap rn

so like,

why

[wild sierra]

better do it secretly so no one finds out and defo wont get even madder when they find out

[broken sigil]

And now we're madder because we found out 😭

[wild sierra]

im sure its something like "it was a very small update and we felkt it didnt warrant an mention"

[broken sigil]

Something along those lines >.>

[old rain]

Relax, there will definitely be some information about updates to specific mechanics without prior announcement in the 2026 roadmap. 🤓

[shrewd compass]

and i've just felt the stamina reduction 🫤 why are they sabotaging their own game smh

[urban cosmos]

Because they're too proud to admit the elephant in The room was a mistake, leading to this issue, which WON'T be resolved.
They have decided they're doubling down on it instead, why?...

I've said it once and i'll say it a million more times, that award which was ONLY given to them for their POV and player count at the time 90k+, has stroked Sloclaps ego's to the poont is has given them confirmation bias's, over these nerfs.

award = proof of theory 🤪

[thorny stream]

this is such a brain rot reddit take bruh go play fifa legit its an arcade futsal game you need dribbling for player engagement and a mechanical depth and higher skill celling is exactlly what dribbling needs to not just be spamming the same moves cos there is little diveristy to what a dribbler can do with variewty the new upate adding the 2 new animations is really good and makes the player feel more moblie and fluid wwhat a game like this needs not clunky movement the new movement feels gret from a player perspective and comments like yours are what killed tha game origanlly

this is a take i can get about

fact cos they kept nerfing and not adding anything till like 2 updates ago

flip resets in rocket league are legit the prime example

[pastel cosmos]

Woah, hold on kiddo, you can't be dropping L's all over the place with takes like that.

This is a team based football game.. Above everything, understand this.
It's not a solo futsal dribble simulator.. If you want that, go watch Blue Lock or something.

If you think player engagement comes from watching other people dribble, I have a wakeup call for you.. Even off ball movement becomes pointless when the ballholder has zero intention of capitalizing on it, and even moves back again after clearing a defender to re-engage in duels.

This is what you get for the largest portion of the playerbase if you make dribbling the main priority.. 60% of gametime where no actual play going on.

I am not saying that we shouldn't remove exploits and emergent mechanics so they can be replaced with a solid baseline dribble set, I am saying that now is the time to approach priority very strategically.. Being so shortsighted that you need a prescription ain't gonna save the game bruh.

If you focus on the needs of top 3-10% of the game now, it's gonna die. Easy as that.
It's gonna keep bleeding.

The inevitable free to play is going to be the saving grace, and the game needs to be ready to retain as many players as possible - making sure the largest part of the playerbase is not being met with frustration and abuse on a large scale.

When the game stabilizes and we have some numbers to work with, we can begin the expansion of mechanics.. ( Which will come with their own long term balancing struggles. We don't want to add that on top of everything now)

[old rain]

Luke, honestly asking, with no intention of stirring anything up: what are you actually basing these claims on? Personal experience? Because if that’s the case, then my arguments are just as valid as yours.

You said, “This is a team-based football game. Above everything, understand this. It’s not a solo futsal dribble simulator. If you want that, go watch Blue Lock.” Fair enough. But by that same logic, I could argue that if your preference is a more touch-and-pass-oriented style of play, then maybe you should go play or watch FIFA instead.

And if the foundation of all this is some form of self-affirmation, a need to define what the game “really is” or “was meant to be,” then it starts to sound like you believe you understand the identity and direction of the game better than Sloclap itself. If that’s the case, I simply disagree. There’s a difference between having a personal vision or preference and presenting that vision as the definitive version of what the game is supposed to be.

At the end of the day, we’re debating direction and priorities, not establishing an absolute truth. And maybe that’s worth acknowledging before turning an opinion into a rule.

Another point you brought up is that if the game focuses on the top 3–10% of skilled players right now, it would die.

But the reality is that most of the players who were actually good at the game before ended up quitting precisely because of the lack of depth and the ridiculously low, overly simple learning curve.

For someone new to the game, what reason would they have to truly invest time into improving if there’s not only no real incentive to do so, but also barely anything meaningful to master in the first place?

Passes… and what else?

That’s kind of the point, isn’t it? If the core answer to depth is just “pass more,” then where exactly is the long-term mechanical or strategic ceiling supposed to come from?

Regarding free-to-play, I honestly don’t think that’s the move, both based on what Sloclap has already implied and on the fact that the game neither needs it right now nor is ready for it.

Free-to-play does not fix structural issues. If the core of the game is still being adjusted, if retention is not stable, and if there is still debate about direction and priorities, bringing in a large wave of new players could end up amplifying those problems instead of solving them.

Highguard itself launched as free-to-play and is already close to shutting down. That alone shows that a monetization model by itself cannot sustain a game if the foundation is not solid enough to retain players long term.

At the end of the day, the game hasn’t actually IMPLEMENTED anything major in almost a year of its lifespan. So far, it’s mostly been fixes and bug corrections, delivered at a slow and discouraging pace.
Now I’ve said everything I had to say. (If you’d rather not respond because you feel like it won’t lead anywhere, feel free.)

[pastel cosmos]

No worries, I only give back the exact same energy people give me, so if we just have a chill and rational conversation about the game, nothing will be stirred up. We had a good discussion before and I enjoyed it.

My view is a mix of personal experience ( Iv'e played almost 4000 games atm plus comp) and what I hear and see from other people. You can see that a lot of folks agreed with this post, so I'm not just pulling outlier takes from my ass. I know that exclusively basing an opinion on personal experience is a fallacy.
I also go against my own personal interests as a striker with my comments about dribbling and the wish for defense to always be stronger than offense.

In terms of the FIFA comment, you just wrote what Swim wrote. The whole reason I wrote that was to provide the opposite view. The answer is somewhere in the middle.

I feel like my views align pretty well with what the devs said themselves. "Always be a team game first" was the wording they used I believe.( Feel free to correct me if my exact quote is wrong)

I am not 100% anti dribbling. Not at all. I am just saying that it should not become the main focus. Keep it reeled in and balanced.. Especially now since we need to limit a diminishing player experience for the majority of the player base. I'm not saying it should be bad. I am calling for priority in what is dire times.

Free to play will not fix anything by itself, we absolutely agree on this. That's why I am adamant on what needs priority at the moment.

Fix exploits, wonky or glitchy elements, limit random deterministic nature, limit frustration and abuse, make sure to retain as many players as possible with a positive gaming experience.

When this is done, and we got that solid core, we can open the gates, hold numbers and then talk about expanding mechanics.

[old rain]

I agree with a good portion of what you said, but I’m just going to highlight and briefly summarize what I believe would actually be beneficial for the game.

Let me make this as clear as possible.

I’m not asking to turn the game into a nonstop highlight reel. I don’t want attackers weaving through an entire defense like prime Neymar at Santos or Barcelona just because the game hands them superpowers. That’s not the point.

What I’m asking for is much simpler: a real 1v1 dribble tool. Something like a proper step-over or an elastico in the style of Ronaldinho, adapted to the game, that actually lets you beat a defender in a straight line and keep moving forward. Right now, that just doesn’t exist. If you want to get past someone, you basically have to stop or sharply cut sideways. There’s no dedicated mechanic to deceive and explode forward.

And here’s the important part: I don’t want this to be strong “just because.” If someone manages to beat two or three defenders, that should be purely their skill. Timing, reading the opponent, clean execution. Not system assistance, not broken stamina, not defense being unresponsive.

If someone wants to try and play like prime Neymar, fine. Let them try. But it should come with risk. It should be punishable. If they mess up, they lose the ball. If they pull it off, full credit to them.

This isn’t about buffing ego or weakening teamplay. It’s just about giving 1v1 situations an actual tool. Right now, there isn’t one. That’s it.

[gaunt basin]

For perspective (towards luke)

From previous statements you do not sound like you want to keep dribbling balanced, it sounds like you want to remove the only skillful and usable tools that currently exist (sure they are emergent mechanics, that much is true) because the base dribble kit is just plain bad.

People debate you on this because your philosophy is to first kill off current dribbling, leaving it in some god-forsaken nigh-unusable state until they manage to implement better base-kit tools, this is not balancing, you just sound like you want to kill it.

Sure dribbling should not be the main focus, but whether we like it or not it is a futsal game and so dribbling is a very core mechanic

[shrewd compass]

It does seem like they restored (or at least increased) player speed and stamina. Secretively though, as they don't mention it in the patch notes.
Also, to shove myself into the dribbling conversation. I don't think the game is ready for a full fledged dribbling system. For now, I think they should still focus on fixing bugs, adding more animations to make the gameplay feel smoother and more appealing and also make hitboxes tighter and stuff like that

[broken sigil]

Something I noticed now that stamina got reworked and the new dribble move got added:

I have had an influx of great teammates! Turns out people became less selfish when dribbling got buffed

[broken sigil]

Seems that buffing dribbling was good for the game after all

[old rain]

Careful, Nordi, the evil dribble buff will get you at night if you don’t go to sleep at the right time. It’s very dangerous. I heard it makes people selfish.

[pastel cosmos]

"buff dribbling"
"dribbling is so weak"
"we can't do any dwibbles 😭 "

Meanwhile dribbling:

[lime otter]

Whats wrong with it? It’s very easy to tackle😭

Like u want a boring ass game

Their isn’t many exploits left

[pastel cosmos]

Hnnyeaaa, I can just feel the engaging team play, I'm about to passssss 🥵

Let's stand around or run back and forth and wait for 30 seconds. It's fun off ball movement. It's important, even if they have zero intention of playing ☝️ 🤓

It's clearly a skill issue, in reality defense should be nerfed 😤

Am I missing any?

[lime otter]

It’s just not hard to stop the dribbling most of the time just being patient wins u the battle defensively

[pastel cosmos]

You are kidding right?

[lime otter]

No it’s genuinely not hard to stop

[pastel cosmos]

Brother, all of this is literally at zero stamina and you are asking what is wrong with it lmao

[lime otter]

Like just watch the recent mrc tourney with the dribbling watch how many actual dribbles work in a game maybe 4-5

[pastel cosmos]

Not to mention how janky it looks

[lime otter]

Its just not hard to defend

U act like their lighting speed with 0 stam

U can just play patient and tackle the tackle box isn’t that small either

[pastel cosmos]

MRC represents around 5% of the playerbase or less. Do I really have to repeat this whole spell again?

How can you watch that video and be like "yeah, this is great"

[lime otter]

Bc it don’t work in game 😭 a decent player can play defense against that

Like think what u want but the competitive scene definitely keeps this game alive rn across all regions

[pastel cosmos]

But when a player complains about not being to dribble enough, it isn't just a skill issue, right?

Only the other way around

[lime otter]

I don’t think dribbling needs to be buffed but adding new moves won’t hurt but it definitely does not need to be nerfed rn

[pastel cosmos]

#1464386801291628624 message

This is straight up cancer

[lime otter]

It’s just a skill gap like any other game

Yet again that won’t work in a real game lmao

Maybe against bad players yea

But that’s a skill issue like every other games theirs ppl who can do more and better than others

[pastel cosmos]

Ah yes, skill issue argument always.. 🙄
When attackers complain that they can't clear defenders, it's a big problem and they need buffs across the board and nerf deff, but when you see literal infinite dribble chains.. "Skill issue, everything is fine. does not need to be nerfed rn".

smdh 👎

Gonna reference this comment again due to the obvious tunnelvisioning, and I don't want to repeat everything.

#1464386801291628624 message

I'm still blown away that anyone can watch that video and not see an issue. Holy hell 😂

#1464386801291628624 message

[pulsar spire]

hes gaining 0 space in this clip btw, hes going in a circle

it isnt threatening or overpowered lol

[gaunt basin]

Guys he moved 1 meter from his original location after 3 moves, this is op

This is just a showcase dribble, its very easy to do whatever you want when you have no one trying to tackle you or god forbid defense stance in front of you 🤣

[gaunt basin]

Grrrr I hate seeing skill expression

I hate mechanics that are hard to do!

Also what hurdle said

[pulsar spire]

the only thing that makes it somewhat good is

#1 the netcode being bad
#2 the aimbot tackle making you miss

[gaunt basin]

Good take

[pastel cosmos]

Triggered much? lol. This clearly isn't a representation of an actual attacking situation but a proof of concept of a broken system.. Not to mention how janky it looks. I'm suprised you couldn't figure that out.

Hurdle is blocked, he acted like a child, so his messages are ignored.

[gaunt basin]

Im surprised you try defending yourself babyraging in all your following comments after posting the video 🤣

[pastel cosmos]

If you can't look at that and see the problem, you aren't looking at it objectively

[gaunt basin]

What a strange thing to say

[pastel cosmos]

What you are looking for is "what an accurate thing to say"

[gaunt basin]

Nooo, its very much like Biden saying "if you dont vote for me you arent black"

[pulsar spire]

btw he tried to get a mod to time me out when we first met, the mod read what he was saying and timed him out instead @gaunt basin 😭 😭

that was me "acting like a child"

[gaunt basin]

Youre just treating your opinion as the objectively correct one even tho it remains an opinion 🤣

[pulsar spire]

he kept saying i was being disrespectful when in-fact i wasnt yet he was lmao

unluggy

[pastel cosmos]

Ehm.. Are you joking?
Is there anyone that doesn't objectively think that the game shouldn't have an infinite stamina oversight that's being exploited?

[gaunt basin]

Hahahaha

[gaunt basin]

The moment you say "think" its no longer objective

[pastel cosmos]

That's how brains work. Thinking.
You are looking for the word "feel"

[gaunt basin]

Opinions arent based on feelings only brother, thats not how that works

[pastel cosmos]

Subjective matter is most often driven by personal bias and feelings.

Rational thought is to remove that from the equation.

Trust, you aren't doing yourself any favors rn.

[gaunt basin]

I wouldnt trust you with 5 cents mate

[pastel cosmos]

Just so we are clear, you think that its okay to have infinite stamina?

Is that balanced?
Are the visually jarring or logic breaking aspects a positive or negative contribution to the game?

Is it within the games best interest to have any of this?

[pulsar spire]

this guy constantly repeats the same narrative while disregarding any nuance at all

[gaunt basin]

He is a big fan of adding his own nuance

[gaunt basin]

High, not Infinite stamina, but i do think what is shown in the video is arbitrary because its not a real situation and he in fact barely moves (which is what you expect from being 0 stam)

[gaunt basin]

I think being able to do cool looking things that are skill expressive and hard to do are net positive, yes, i dont think a lot of it looks nearly as janky as many other things, its just fast (which is necessary)

At the end of the day i see this as an arcade game

[pastel cosmos]

Why not infinite? Why should there be any limit when you want it that high to begin with?

[gaunt basin]

Because you should not be able to run the entire field twice over without your character feeling it

In succession mind you

[pastel cosmos]

So you want a limit, just never actually being hit by it?

[gaunt basin]

Its healthy for playing for space that pauses in runs and such are necessary

I want a limit expected of a high-performant Athlete

[pastel cosmos]

So you advocate that there should be a limit but at the same time watch that video that shows the clear exploitation of infinite stamina and say it's perfectly fine?

Which one is it then?

[shrewd compass]

how about adding stamina penalties to dribbling but successful dribbles give you back the stamina that was consumed when doing that dribble and also a successful tackle does the same for the defender?

[pastel cosmos]

Would be broken and just act as fuel for infinite dribbling.. Just the same as the exploit now

[gaunt basin]

Again i dont think its that deep when he is still barely moving since dribble moves are currently inherently low movement, you need stamina or blue to actually do anything with it

[shrewd compass]

yeah, i guess this should be considered after making dribbling a more intuitive and balanced move instead of just holding LT and spamming A

[pastel cosmos]

I think that argument is mute since you could continue moving in any direction you wished. The video just chains it in a circle. Video clearly shows someone "actually doing anything with it"

[eternal geyser]

No that’s how that dribbling has to work

[shrewd compass]

but what if you do it past against the last defender or a goalkeeper that's coming out to sweep the ball? I do think dribbling need to reworked (or worked in the first place) but also not just removing it without providing an instant alternative that's more skill based and more integrated with the game systems

[eternal geyser]

But you should def not be able to do all that at 0 Stan

Stam

[shrewd compass]

exactly, because it does feel like dribbling is a fringe mechanic that doesn't adhere to basic gameplay mechanics like stamina consumption. Meanwhile a sliding tackle, whether successful or not, does incure a heavy stamina penalty. So, you can kind of see what luke is complaining about

[eternal geyser]

You think slide tackling has drawbacks???

[gaunt basin]

Youre at a massive disadvantage if you attempt dribbling at 0 stam against GK or defender with resources

If he beats you he is just better

[eternal geyser]

Stamina ones?

I mean

Not when he has no penalty to his actual dribbling

If he loses the ball at all yeah he’s cooked

[gaunt basin]

I agree with you tho Mr shepherd more skill based dribbling and defending it would be only positive

[eternal geyser]

But if you can dribble like that with 0 stam it makes it feel kinda pointless to manage Stam as much as you would if you couldn’t

[gaunt basin]

Dribbling is the most stamina intensive Mechanic in the game

[eternal geyser]

Yeah but it doesn’t suffer the same as the others

[pastel cosmos]

Which means nada when you can continue dribbling forever

[gaunt basin]

Again to actually do anything with the dribbles you still need resources, youre not gonna be able to just dribble upfield without them

[gaunt basin]

Sliding tackle and running specifically

Outfield dive and stand tackle are exactly the same regardless of stam

[eternal geyser]

I mean that’s just not true

[shrewd compass]

as Luke said, if you can keep dribbling after stamina is drained then it doesn't matter. Add to it that it isn't well built as a mechanic, then it can get kinda exploity

[eternal geyser]

Have you tried diving with no stam

And seen the difference in distance or recovery

[gaunt basin]

Yes, you can circumvent it if you just dont fuck your own momentum before the dive

[eternal geyser]

You mean by ee?

[gaunt basin]

Nah, its a timing thing

I would hop on and show but at work

[shrewd compass]

I mean that's what should be done now, just work on the stuff that's already in the game. More contextual animations, better hitboxes, less bugs and after reworking stamina consumption, maybe dribbling will blossom into something great

[eternal geyser]

Ok but you admit

That there is at least some penalty

If you don’t do the timing correctly

Guess what doesn’t have that

Also even then

After you dive

You still have no stam and are cooked

So you won’t catch up anyways

[pastel cosmos]

Reptil working overtime with all this reaching and rationalizing lol.

[eternal geyser]

I mean besides your no Stam dribbling bad your other takes are worse than his

[pastel cosmos]

Wasn't asking you lol

[eternal geyser]

Stay mad

[pastel cosmos]

always

[gaunt basin]

There is certainly a level of penalty if you dont know how to circumvent it yeah, and sure dribbling in isolation does not hold the same penalty of needing to consider extra factors, but dribbling alone also does next to nothing without resources

[eternal geyser]

I mean yeah

[gaunt basin]

The dribbling itself is the same yes but you dont do much off of it with no resource

[eternal geyser]

What I’m saying is make it harder yo get to 0

And limit the options avaible at 0 stam to counteract that

[gaunt basin]

That is a fine way to go about it

[shrewd compass]

you're being somewhat of an antagonizer here tbh

[gaunt basin]

Nothing new

[eternal geyser]

Yeah he likes to lie and say he throws the same energy back

When no one has said anything like that in the past 5 minutes

XDD

[pastel cosmos]

Nah, just stating facts. These are some crazy reaches to try and rationalize the obvious

[eternal geyser]

I mean they really aren’t

He’s not wrong that it’s really not that hard to defend

But that doesn’t mean it should be in the game

[gaunt basin]

A fair way to look at it too

In my POV if its reasonably counteractable then what is the issue

[pastel cosmos]

There is no way to say the penalty is same when one can continue indefinitely and the other can't.

It's just not factually correct

[shrewd compass]

but you can still make your point and just stand back. people can see the difference between overreaching and actually making a point

[pastel cosmos]

You can then dive into details and try to rationalize it, but its just not true.

[eternal geyser]

I mean

You can’t rainbow flick at 0 stam without guaranteeing you lose possession

So we can’t also act like there’s still not at least some drawbacks

Like it’s at least limited to on the ground dribbling

Which is why it’s more predictable

[pastel cosmos]

Come on, that's not justification or a reasonable counter-balance for what we see in the video.

[eternal geyser]

Didn’t say it was

[pastel cosmos]

fair

[eternal geyser]

Plus that video is a showcase

In 5s that would be infinitely harder to effectively do since you have much less free space

And more pressure

[pastel cosmos]

Not infinitely harder. As you guys love to say "skill issue".

But we can agree that the radius used of the zero stam dribbling in the vid would cover the entire box, right?

[eternal geyser]

If no one’s there sure

And even then he doesn’t clear as much ground

You have to zigzag with that dribbling in a way

[pastel cosmos]

So let's be conservative and say a sizeable portion of the box

[shrewd compass]

but it can be abused against a last defender or a sweeping goalkeeper

[shrewd compass]

but it can create space for you to shoot

[eternal geyser]

I mean yeah

I’m not saying it’s worthless

I’m just not exaggerating

It’s like real life fancy dribbling

Well used it can be good

But it’s different in actual application

And in a lot of cases not as good as it looks

[pastel cosmos]

So you can indefinitely roam the majority / a sizable portion of the box with dribbles, creating an actionable threat, with zero penalty.

Is that fair to say?

[gaunt basin]

Not entirely its not accounting for potential defense

I can indefinitely stand still on penalty spot making an actionable threat of the entire box because I have first run to any pass

If you want to be specific you should probably highlight your issues with it, namely being 0 stam

And that you can be a solo-threat, as that is the only difference from your example and mine with penalty spot

Maybe actually dilute it to believing its bad to be capable of being a solo-threat when you are afforded no stam

[shrewd compass]

this is one of the two big problems. the other one being that dribbling is kind of just spaming LT and A, I know it has to be timed but it's not really that enjoyable to do or watch when you're just sliding sideways

[gaunt basin]

High-level dribbling or what we want to call it is a lot more than just LT and A

Which is why I also call it inherently more skillful

You need to know spacing, instant presses, timing, camera control and animation manipulation

[pastel cosmos]

So you can indefinitely roam the majority / a sizable portion of the box with dribbles, creating an continuous actionable threat, with absolutely zero penalty.

The impact of the defense on the dribbler is merely a matter of skill from the dribbler.

Any active attempt to counter the situation by tackling will penalize the defense, while all the offensive actions (dribbling) have zero penalty.

[gaunt basin]

Hard disagree

Absolutely zero penalty is just not true, if you do a single move and defender or gk is remotely ready you get eaten, you cant just do everything willy nilly and for free

90% of the time or more you just eat shit

And to be able to access a larger area of the box without getting eaten, you need additional resources like EE or stamina

Sure you can beat out a defender once, but you cant break away from him without any extra resources

You can take the quick shot that much is true

This is also what effectively happens currently (although rarely at 0 stam anyway but thats a detail)

[shrewd compass]

yeah you're probably right but also LT&A is very viable. but, in general, I think i'll like it if they:

• Improve the hitboxes
• rework stamina penalty
• maybe reconsider the i-frames for each dribble type

i seperated the three points so you actually know what my statements are, better for having a constructive conversation

[pastel cosmos]

Difficulty is irrelevant, that's always going to be subjective - It's a skill issue.. But I will quickly note, that if anything, this lowers the skill ceiling, which goes directly against what some people from the comp scene complain about.

The whole point is the clear lack of balance, fairness and the beyond strong eligibility for abuse, which in turn creates a diminishing experience for players, which further adds to the game losing people.

[gaunt basin]

No dribble moves have i-frames

And the devs have specifically said they want no i-frames

Every time you might experience i-frames, it is desync

[gaunt basin]

The game had the most active players post-launch when the game had the most emergent mechanics available and viable, so I am not entirely sure about the correlation

Im not sure what you mean lowers the skill ceiling

As in what you refer to

[pastel cosmos]

Infinite stamina dribbling

[gaunt basin]

I assume because your argument is that you remove the need to account for stamina management

[pastel cosmos]

And the majority left after like two weeks

[pastel cosmos]

Correct

[gaunt basin]

Then I would say there is some truth to it but not entirely, you still require to be very intentional with dribbles especially at low stam because you have no resource to break away from defenders or make space, stamina management is still a thing, some moves are only available at certain stamina levels, and when 0 stam you have to be much more careful and intentional with the moves you use.

Additionally, if we were to just flat out remove it as is with no other changes, the skill ceiling is reduced significantly further because you hit 0 stamina too fast when trying to do anything, leading to not trying to do anything, less skill expression, lower skill ceiling, overall bad juju

[shrewd compass]

I think you guys actually agree on what started the argument, which is the need for stamina management in dribbling, and have now just completely lost the plot

[shrewd compass]

there is no i-frames? damn it does feel like it.

[gaunt basin]

I think stamina management is already entirely a thing with dribbling as it is currently 😅
But I am definitely an advocate for increasing stamina so you dont hit 0 as easy as a better system

[gaunt basin]

Yeah, lead dev confirmed in dev server

There are 0 i-frames on any moves or mechanics

Its just desync

[shrewd compass]

how about having a cool down on every LT&A press? so you don't just keep spamming it. Increasing stamina can miss the balance of other things

[gaunt basin]

There already is

[shrewd compass]

then how do you prevent that from happening?

[gaunt basin]

You personally can't, its up to sloclap to make better netcode

[shrewd compass]

yeah i was talking about them preventing it

[gaunt basin]

Oh, yeah, better netcode 🙂

[shrewd compass]

then maybe make it a little longer

[gaunt basin]

And upgrading server resources on AWS

[pastel cosmos]

Are you joking? lol. For real come on. These arguments are just getting farfetched now.

If you were to remove it now, with no changes, you would have to be far more skilled and strategical plus effective in what you chose to do, instead of just infinitely spamming dribbles with (and I repeat this again) zero penalty.

It's obvious which on of the two would require a better player.

[gaunt basin]

I dont think it would help

The reason you dont feel there is right now is because you do other moves that arent LT+A during the cooldown to circumvent it

Like dribble pushball, when you pick the ball back up the cooldown is gone

[shrewd compass]

i think it can, i've seen people spam the LT&A the get out of a lot of trouble easily

[shrewd compass]

like i said, i'm talking about consecutive uses of lt&T with no apparent cooldown

also, i'm not really a dribbler lol. I like passing the ball and maybe the occasional well-timed push ball to get past a tackel

[gaunt basin]

Youre missing the context of where is the line that decides that people simply no longer try, sure it becomes more "skillful" that you now have to beat the defender in 2 moves instead of 3, but if the base toolkit is already bad, at some point you just stop trying because its nigh-impossible and the effort balance on offense vs defense side is too skewed

One thing about trying to be strategical is that you at some point stop trying to do strategy when all strategy you try easily gets shut down 😅

And I still dont know how losing all your stamina is zero penalty, if u have 0 stamina even if u beat the defender you cant get past him

He instantly catches back up

Just standing in place and dribbling does not progress the game whatsoever

[gaunt basin]

In my experience the worst thing you can do is just use LT+A with nothing else

Doing a dribble move makes tackles heatseek onto you

Stand tackle in particular

Dribbling only really becomes useful when you chain other things into it

The base kit is incredibly bad

[shrewd compass]

but you can still pass and shoot, that more dangerous than running with the ball. and if you dribble with no stamina past two players and then pass forward to a teammate then you have already created an overload and numerical advantage in the attack and that's a very advantageous move that took 0 stamina

[pastel cosmos]

Does this, from a logical and game design perspective look like ANYTHING even remotely related to being completely drained of recourses?

Especially if we remember that you in this state can indefinitely roam the majority / a sizable portion of the box with an infinite chain of dribbles, creating an continuous actionable threat, with absolutely zero penalty.

I mean, what are we even talking about here, it's silly to even attempt to argue against it.. It's getting farfetched.

[shrewd compass]

as a said before, tackling and dribbling need to be fleshed out in the future, not nerfed or removed

[gaunt basin]

Being 0 stamina makes it significantly more risky and even if u pass off the ball you are dead in the play, it has its costs whether u win or lose the interaction

[gaunt basin]

Again the 2nd part of this just assumes there is no defender or GK 😅

If there is no defense i can just walk across the box

[shrewd compass]

it's the complete opposite, this assumes that you're the defender or even the gk

[gaunt basin]

Then you are not roaming the box

[shrewd compass]

i don't think you're picking up what i'm putting down

[gaunt basin]

Dribbles arent some omnipotent force, 80% of the things people do is reactably tackleable

Just stand in defensive stance in front of him and wait for one

[pastel cosmos]

Wrong. To keep up you would have to dash, which once again entails a stamina penalty, while the attacker has zero penalty and can move forever

[gaunt basin]

You can also infinitely dash and stand tackle at 0 stam

I have easily beaten people trying to dribble me when i am 0 stam and they are full

Is that a problem?

The only way they get out is if they have blue

[shrewd compass]

that is the main problem, even when used by someone who doesn't have the ball. this isn't dribbler hate, all i'm asking is for it to require stamina, that's all

[shrewd compass]

i don't get this

[gaunt basin]

And thats fine by me, if we make it a lot harder to hit 0 to begin with

If the philosophy is to become completely useless at 0 stam it should be a lot harder to get there

[gaunt basin]

The point is that it is very easy to play containment defense against someone with no resources to break away

Especially when you have yours

He would have to be significantly better than the defender to get through

[pastel cosmos]

That's not a valid argument for what we see in the video my guy. There is no universe where what we see there correlates to having zero resources.. It's broken, never supposed to have been there, an oversight that's gonna be patched out.. Hopefully sooner than later.

There should only be a symbolic increase to stamina, as zero stam dribbling should never have been there to begin with.

People shouldn't be compensated because they can no longer use exploits.
They simply want to mitigate the damage so they can continue doing the same as much as possible.

And it circles back nicely to the discussion of the skill ceiling, which you agreed would take a better player and be more effective.

[gaunt basin]

People shouldnt be compensated for not being able to use exploits, but SHOULD be compensated for being left in a state where the only really good tools were said exploits, when the rest of the "intended" kit is so bad, you are owed a refactoring of the kit to make up for what you are now missing

Regardless of exploits or not, they are tools and most of them are used in this game because its just not feasible to try using the standard kit on its own

This is a tale as old as Fighting games

[shrewd compass]

it shouldn't be a lot harder to hit 0 stam, it should be balanced with other game mechanics, so you can maybe do 2 or 3 dribbles at max, i think it be similiar to a sliding tackle in terms of stamina consumption

[shrewd compass]

but they do have resources to break away, one of them is passing backwards

[shrewd compass]

I think luke is right with this one

[gaunt basin]

Not to sound dramatic but 3 dribbles is crazy

[shrewd compass]

while you can also dash, they have the advantage of having done it first and so they already are way past you and the only way to catch up is to ee as in run faster than them

[shrewd compass]

i think it's fair considering that there are only 4 outfield players in 5v5 and you know how crazy it is to dribble past 3 players or dribble past the same player three times

[gaunt basin]

If the dribbler passes backwards he is not dribbling and doing what he would do anyway if he couldnt dribble

[gaunt basin]

In a balanced world only the best of dribblers should be able to dribble past 3 competent defenders, it doesnt happen in this world

I dont think its fair with dribbles being as bad as they are

If they were more reliable and gave you more distance if you win the interaction

Then I could be on board

[gaunt basin]

Which in effect only opens up a potential passing lane, theyre still not getting past you if you just play containment

[shrewd compass]

what i meant is that you can't fully contain a player because they can always pass the ball

[gaunt basin]

Im not sure I understand

That is you completely containing him

He has to give off the ball to progress the play

What you mean then is completely containing the ball

Not the player

That would be broken

[shrewd compass]

which is a good way of incentivizing the use of different mechanics, just as a dribbler forces you to use and learn a standing tackle

[shrewd compass]

it should be that way in the game, especially in mp games, you can't dribble past 3 players unless you're really good

[shrewd compass]

also yes, this should come with the other details that we mentioned

so:

• having an empty stamina bar should prevent you from dribbling
• increase dribbling stamina consumption so you could at max dribble 3 consecutive times
• improved hitboxes/netcode
• improve dribbling as a game mechanic in terms of distance covered per successful dribble and maybe other stuff idk, i'm not a game developer

[gaunt basin]

Heavy on the last one if the decision ends up being to go in less dribbles per stam bar, you should definitely win a lot more space if you win the interaction, I personally think its cooler to chain and combo different dribble mechanics together making it more freestyle but yeah

[wild sierra]

Idk if its just me but all my dribbling amounts to 1-3 dribbles and im either past my mark, tackled, or i pass. I often see the people i play with doing apl the dribbling at its fullest taking on 3-4 people and then either miss the goal or get tackled eventually even when someone is open for a pass. To be fair this is not every player i play with who dribbles

And yes sometimes they dribble in box past 4 people and score but its not that often

[gaunt basin]

Some people just want to dribble because they watch too much blue lock thats hard to get around

[pastel cosmos]

Hard to get around? Not really. But you don't like the answer 😄

[gaunt basin]

The answer given is not expansive enough because they will all try to do it anyway 🙂

Could be the shittiest thing in the game and you would still see Mr Bachira hair try his best

[pastel cosmos]

They will try yeah, which is why my mantra has been to be careful and not fuel it further so we see more of it.

(I lol'd at Bachira hair)

[shrewd compass]

it would be cooler in single player game, but for a mp game you have to think of the defender too and what options do they have, that's balancing

[gaunt basin]

Thats what im constantly thinking of and my position is just steadfastly that defending is significantly stronger as is even with the "exploits"

The skill and effort required for either side to succeed at what they want to do is incredibly skewed and the one that is ultimately easier to perform is also given more reward

Additionally I don't see a problem with more difficult/more skill expressive mechanics to be inherently stronger

[gaunt basin]

So the entire thing I am against here is to further nerf offensive ability when defense is already stronger by a significant margin, im fine with removing the "exploits" but not without replacement of mechanics for offensives to be able to actually deal with competent defenders, because sometimes you just have to take the 1v1, it shouldnt be autolose whenever you have to

[shrewd compass]

fair enough. I think we already agree on the basics, I just hope that someone from sloclap is actually seeing this autistic conversational warfare that's going over here and actually consider doing something

[pastel cosmos]

Hopefully they have been reading day to day. I pity the person having to start all the way from the beginning.

[shrewd compass]

I mean, hopefully they're getting paid to do that

[wild sierra]

I mean its easy enough to summarize

[pastel cosmos]

Regarding the other stuff, it's as I said. Symbolic increase to stamina is sufficient compensation for removing something that shouldn't have been there to begin with. You can't demand a very high stam increase when it wasn't the intended baseline to begin with.

There will absolutely be a time to expand or fully replace the dribble system, but not now.. It will have to wait. It will come with it's own large set of issues that need to be pruned and balanced.

[pastel cosmos]

I've been posting the list every now and then. This thread has encompassed a lot more than just the discussion today lol.

I need to post the newest version with updates to the revised thoughts

[shrewd compass]

good stuff. I like this game, hell, I love this game. it has scratched that individual-to-team play balance itch that i have that neither fifa nor pes ever did. I just hope that while they improve on the formula they don't miss with what's making it work in the first place

[old rain]

Yeah… you guys got a little bit carried away.

[broken sigil]

<@&1379172191769464882> hes throwing turds again btw

[lean monolith]

Only thing i can say is that the dribbling without stamina is a known issue and is being fixed.

As mentioned in the dev log, there was a “more” game breaking bug that required the attention of the limited dev team.
Opposite of what you might think, the devs are very aware of what is lacking and what needs changing in the game (other posts summarising what the average competitive player thinks have also gaines traction recently).

Lots is being worked on, and I advise anyone coming in here to just read whats been said and upvotes or downvotes whatever so this post doesn’t become an echo chamber, and of course keep things civil :)

Thank you.

[pastel cosmos]

Thanks for chiming in.

We who debate (minus the toxic kids) in here might butt heads, but in the end we're all just passionate about the game and want it to succeed. It's how to get there we disagree on certain things.

[broken sigil]

I should mention that pretty much everyone here with the exception of myself and slurp started as a neutral party who didn't take a side

[wild sierra]

Yay

[old rain]

@pastel cosmos As you just said yourself, this has become purely a discussion about which path is the best to get there.

But that isn’t an absolute truth, because it’s a fact that both paths lead to the same place, and it’s undeniable that both things will be implemented into the game sooner or later.

So either way, let’s all be consistent and agree that the right approach isn’t to debate which priority should come first or which one is above the other, but rather to focus purely on discussing what is currently bad and what the game is missing.

[pastel cosmos]

No, I disagree. Priority, strategy and focus are important.

While Reptil and I both want the game to succeed, both our suggested paths have things that cannot exist at the same time.

For example; you can't have moderate and near infinite stamina levels at the same time. So both paths wont lead to the same place.

We present arguments, counter-arguments, going back and forth.. (And at some point start going in circles lol )

In the end it will be the devs decision which parts of the list paired with arguments for and against, makes most sense and brings most value to the game short and long term.

[eternal geyser]

thats not wqhat he wants tho

he literally agreed that it would be fine if you couldnt infinite stamina dribble as long as its much harder to get to 0

your actually just lying now

[pastel cosmos]

Doesn't matter rn, it's part of the example

[eternal geyser]

its a bad example

[pastel cosmos]

You get the idea of concepts that can't exists at the same

[eternal geyser]

and makes your point less credible

but sure

ok but your talking about an idea that doesnt exist

there arent opposing ideas like that at the moment

seeing as he is fine with that idea of more stamina and no 0 stam dribbling

[pastel cosmos]

It doesn't matter, thats not the discussion

We are not actually debating the matters rn

[eternal geyser]

im not

but your trying to create 2 sides that cant exist at the same time

which is bad

it should be you listen to both sides and take the best of both or at least consider the interests of the other to see if it gives new perspective and brings other new solutions out of a compromise

thats how debates go well

[pastel cosmos]

Bro, read the room.

[eternal geyser]

i dont think youd want me to

it would end up with me shitting on you like everyone else is XD

[pastel cosmos]

Do it, don't threaten me with a good time

[eternal geyser]

ewie

bros into scat

[pastel cosmos]

Or hush and focus on the actual topic, which was much more general in nature atm than any specific suggestion

[eternal geyser]

the topic you strayted from as well?

[pastel cosmos]

lmao, did you just want to start an argument? 😂

[eternal geyser]

you misconstrued someones arguement and i called you out for it

[craggy veldt]

This debate from both of you in going in circles. I’m putting a slowmode and ending this discussion here.

If we get pinged for this sort of behavior again the moderation team will give out warnings/mutes

[pastel cosmos]

Thank you. Was so pointless lol. I'm gonna go play the game

[wild sierra]

With the new dribble i think the dribble interactions are more fun but ill have to see after the hype dies down

[lament bear]

✅ #1464386801291628624 is now in s l o w m o t i o n. Regular users can only post once every 4 hours

(Suggestion: Type </slowmode:1457768284228288679> off when you want to disable slowmode)

[brazen cairn]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-stare-cat-staring-cat-auto-feeder-cat-funny-cat-gif-1144109127115935139