Gunship Helicopters (UH-1H + Mi8)

[calm zephyr]

Feedback related to 1.3x EXP Helicopters

[wise grove]

You cant switch to the M60D from the Huey gunships passenger seats

[hot spade]

Also, were gunships can have passengers? I think they don't carry passengers because being heavily armed would be too heavy to carry passengers.

[wise grove]

AFAIK real Huey gunships didn't typically have many passenger seats but they also had more forward facing weapons than just 2 small rocket pods.

[chrome grail]

You cannot rearm the mi-8 with rockets

[round dirge]

It would be nice to have a separate key bind for the gunship rocket pods so that those who use the legacy controller preset could bind them to the right bumper which isn't used which would prevent accidental usage when using the right antitorque.

[wintry owl]

Why not just have the legacy controls for movement and stuff separate from the vehicle ones?

Like I can have updated heli controls but legacy other stuff

[round dirge]

Thats an option but among the people I play with we are not the biggest fans of updated Helicopter controls, in my opinion, they give me less control over the aircraft. Another solution could be a way of putting a safety on the rocket pods like how you can control which you use and how many rockets are fired.

[toxic sphinx]

They aren't heavily armed tho

[wintry owl]

I’d say it’s realistic

At this point we are past the Vietnam era Huey and the upgraded engine would allow for a greater payload

Plus the pods aren’t too big

7 per thing

[primal meteor]

The Mi-8 helicopter that fires the S variant unguided rockets should have black smoke trails, not grey/white

https://youtu.be/3nwUjRcydEw?si=RcjFOfv6gWkZwk_c

only example I could find of dump fire

[maiden condor]

The new heli physics should be scrapped it feels a lot less realistic it’s like the thing is in zero gravity

[ancient girder]

Uh1h saw use in vietnam... first production models were 1966 irrc.

Just not as a gunship. The us army had a preference of relegating earlier short body hueys ( uh1b/c/m) as gunships and uh1d and uh1h as transports due to thier larger cabin size.

[ancient girder]

I'd think there ahould be a weight aystem. Where you a huey doesn't lift as much when you have pods with rockets, get a weight reduction when you have empty pods , and further performance improvement if you detach empty pods. That way if someone does transport will all seats filled plus tries to lift off thier helos will feel more sluggish due to all the weight.

Granted we did get smaller pods not the larger ones that 19 per pod. Also no forward facing miniguns. So perhaps transporting some troops still remains viable

[ancient girder]

the huey gunship currently lacks a " reticule intensity control" for XM60 reflex sight.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/976019292011233280/1317710307698802758/image.png?ex=6762f89b&is=6761a71b&hm=0f3a1d6942ab8c655be6afd4435f2f7913602ac22eea130987731461564380ce&

This is a important feature i hope to see implemented as atm the sight is waay too bright for anything that isnt a ideal daylight weather conditions.

[spring veldt]

To my knowledge the mounting system we see in game is entirely fictitious. The M60's are mounted on the M23 mount (which is real), but there was no version of the M23 mount that had any provisions for rockets. The UH-1H and the long body Huey's in general weren't used as gunships except in niche cases. The australians come to mind as the only significant users of the UH-1H as a gunship. By the time the Hotel entered service the Cobra and the short body Hueys would pretty much be the main aircraft for the role. Certainly by 1989 the Towcobras and Apaches would be used exclusively over the Hotel model as gunships. It wasn't designed for it and it really does a poor job of being a gunship compared to the dedicated attack helicopters. Not to mention too that the UH-1 was on the way out to make way for the UH-60 even by the early 80's.

[ancient girder]

yeah it would of been more authentic to have M21 armament system for rockets with pintle mount for m60s that way. because that at least existed for short body gunships or aussie Uh1H bushrangers

https://s3-ap-southeast-2.amazonaws.com/awm-media/collection/P05002.025/screen/4142732.JPG

I would also add that in arma 4 i hope the Uh1H still remain ( at very least transport variants, with or without M23 mount) in 1989 the Uh1H wasnt entirely phased out yet. so it will have a place as a lower cost alternative to the Uh60A

Some active duty still had Uh1h's in operationsl use. it was still used via active duty units in 1989 panama war and in 1st gulf war.

[heavy furnace]

Not related to the current experimental vehicles, but I think it would be very cool to see a helicopter with a machinegun-style front facing turret (that is controlled by the driver). I feel that pilots are lacking the ability to feel the excitement of shooting hundreds of rounds per minute.

[keen wyvern]

Mi-8 is unstable at a hover (Q / E) and too slow. The pull back bug is back it seems.

[delicate trail]

Implementing navigation. Using the existing vor antenna and deployed radios as beacons, pilots could tune frequencies to navigate without relying on the map mid-flight. Adding a functioning HSI instrument to helicopters would make this system intuitive and enhance both realism and immersion.

[ancient girder]

the only VOR antenna ive seen in reforger is the one next to the everon airfield. not sure if prc 77's or even radio antennas that are setup at bases can be used as navigation becons for aircraft

I think there will be bigger place for "navigation" for Arma 4, since many american helos outside of the UH1 had doppler navigation systems which had a memory for multiple programmable waypoints. An/asn-128 had 12 irrc

[stoic aspen]

The Mi-8 has a very large radius of destruction affter it has been destroyed and explodes. It will clear out a gird square of trees if you drop it from high enough that is explodes when it hits the ground.

[keen wyvern]

Helicopter response to input seems worse to me.

Also we need to talk about the Mi-8's stance and how it has costed me quite a few tail rotors.

Because I believe they only lower the hidraulics when the helicopter is on the ground.

[slow onyx]

Plonking down mi8s as gamemaster very often leads to a damaged tail rotor from the get go, not specifically a gunship problem though.

[keen wyvern]

Landing and running on the airstrip. Hydraulics are lowered when its stationary? Idk if it can be fixed by adjusting the suspension.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?&q=mi-8+landing&&mid=1AA771D80FF46B267AC71AA771D80FF46B267AC7&&FORM=VRDGAR

[wintry owl]

I’d assume the suspension is lowered during storage to help prevent damage to rotor assembly and, ironically, the tail rotor

Also am I trippin or has it always had a problem with pitching up during flight

[keen wyvern]

It didn't in the last experimental so stable should be good. But it has returned

[wintry owl]

Sweet I thought I had like stick drift or something

[ancient girder]

playing DCS i never played with mi8 hydraulics settings. It always landed just fine. if the Flight model is done right , everything works as intended

[covert tundra]

yeah something has to be done with the mi-8 horrible taxi performance. either the thrust force is not perpendicular with how the aircraft sits on the ground and or the suspension is wrong. I think the rear is too soft tbh

also maybe the static brake force should be stronger since it feels like the rotors has oil on them.

[covert tundra]

oh the rockets should not fly in formation. how the rockets firing circuit works is that there is a pawled rotary assembly (somewhat similar in function to how a guns burst pawl works) that spins around sending a impulse to each individual rocket circuit, because of the high resistance there is a small delay of a few ms at random. I think on the longer burst modes you have a enough time to let go of the trigger, 4 rounds is rather fast and probably impossible to interrupt

[covert tundra]

wrong

"black smoke" is just due to environmental lighting conditions.

[heavy furnace]

Fun idea, add the ability to load spare HE/HEDP rockets into the trunk of helicopters. Then, let a passenger (or maybe separate "gunner assistant") manually reload the rocket pods while in air.

[hot spade]

Hotshot style? Maybe we can staple the rotors back together too while airborne. 😆

[heavy furnace]

Idk, at least the ability to rearm them away from helipads.

[ancient girder]

not specific to gunships but helicopters broadly. The ability to use of fire extinguishers whilst inside the cabin

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/551465062339051521/1322632565181382666/image.png?ex=67719510&is=67704390&hm=086d7e54fffcc42a92d193c7f63c653d62dd4797b63396c70da497ac6dea47bc&

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/551465062339051521/1322632443387449477/image.png?ex=677194f3&is=67704373&hm=0a8b7776adbc17d0fbcd5616b90c8d1047a746712452f268f52c48f11f3f9d34&

when your helicopter is light on fire in mid air its almost impossible to land the helicopter on the ground and bail before the flames kill you. so extinguisher would have a use to at least reduce the fire from spreading to the front of cabin where the pilots sit to buy you more time.

would like to imagine the further you are away from where the fuel tanks are actuall located the slower you should be injured by burns.

[stoic aspen]

If a fuel tank or engine is on fire it would not be able to be extinguished in the air effectively unless the airframe had built in engine extinguishers. A better solution to this would be something in the thread linked. (it addresses most grievances with the current implementation of vehicle fires.)

https://discord.com/channels/105462288051380224/1283929156400451645
(not trying to promote, but it saves me from restating what I've said there.)

[covert tundra]

the damage models are nothing like from flight sims 2 decades ago

[stoic aspen]

I don't understand the point your making, could you explain?

[civic berry]

uhh, ok? the point being

[wintry owl]

Do either of the helicopters in the base game have that ability irl?

[wintry owl]

I’m guessing the handling/flight capabilities aren’t realistic idk

[stoic aspen]

The Huey did

[ancient girder]

The Uh1H has no integrated fire suppression system. It only has a master caution fire display if the system detects one ( assuming the fire thats started isn't yet visible to aircrew). the manual states that all there is is a portable fire extinguisher under the pilots seats. IF the aircraft has caught on fire during flight the procedure is to land as soon as possible either conventionally or via autorotation , initiate emergency shutoff , then to bail the aircraft. Of course i realize this but as discussed the issue with the way things currently work in reforger it's virtually impossible to be expected to land it safely before you burn to death mid air. Its not enough time.

[wintry owl]

So maybe a fire that burns more intensely the longer it goes?

[stoic aspen]

Lowkey read the first thing on google, and it turns out it was talking about fire fighting 😭

But yeah I agree, without a built in engine suppression system you would need to land no matter what, and the current system needs changes.

ATP tho this is off topic to this thread, so we should probably move on.

[wintry owl]

Helicopters should have autorotation

Enough said

[wintry owl]

I think it’d be cool (possibly realistic I think) if the side mounted machine guns on the Huey pout down when not in use

[ancient girder]

agreed and when not in use you should still be able to close the doors as well when they are put downwards

like here

https://www.huey.co.uk/images/m60/m60-kpm23.gif

[azure forge]

And not a big deal but move to extinguishing spot to behind the right side door to the marked fire extinguisher 'panel'

On the huey

[azure forge]

Definitely agree with this, also maybe the ability to climb on top of a huey from its steps behind the pilots doors. To repair the blades and prop easier. As of now half the time you try to repair it it ends up stopping due to it being a weird angle and relatively far

Though not much for gunships as the huey in general, I don't have much time running the MI-8 so can't say much about it

[spark wave]

Koreans have one where the M23 MG pintle is still in place with rocket pods on something like XM93 - this is possibly an A/A49E variant of some sort. But either way, doesn't look like that we have in Reforger.

[wise grove]

not sure if reported already but S-5MO is just HE while S-5KO is HEDP

[delicate trail]

does the "inclinometer assembly" have a pip feature in game? I have no idea how this works but the displacement due to the glass and liquid inside suggest that things like periscopes could use the same mechanic?!

[ancient girder]

helicopters should have an Armament Master switch. just so there is no chance of a negligent discharge of rockets

[azure forge]

So like the same buttons and functions as a safety but more akin to arma 3? Meaning you don't need to press shift v just v to cycle it on and off. Unlike guns requiring shift V

[maiden condor]

May be a bit controversial but the automatic lte correction should be removed it’s very unrealistic for helis of that time I don’t even think any modern helis have that capability

[pine patio]

Why was the select Fire removed? It’s just salvos now and not the 4 dif Fire modes

[silver depot]

Can you make it to where I can switch the button to fire rockets?

[misty bear]

Helicopters need a separate keybind for shoot (RT) because it currently conflicts with antitorque right (RT), I think this could be resolved by allowing players to bind launch rockets(X) separately from shoot (RT). (XBOX SERIES S) thank you.

[tender pumice]

Maybe also consider having the pilots fire button for rockets different from the gun mounted turrets (50. Cal humvee, LAV so on) it would be easier because some control options for the helicopters pods conflict with ground vehicle controls

[civic berry]

if youre on controller try setting the antitourque right to right bumper. it sounds crazy but it works really well

[misty bear]

This conflicts with freelook

[civic berry]

why do you have helicopter freelook disabled? its under vehicles i wanna say

[misty bear]

It conflicts because when anti torque is applied it also turn on freelook causing heli controls to be disabled until free look/antitorque is no longer applied

[civic berry]

there is a setting named something along the lines of "aircraft freelook." if you either turn it off/on (cant remember and i dont wanna check rn) you can freelook without having to press anything

it is an incredibly stupid thing for it to be automatically on, but atleast it isnt forced

[misty bear]

When it is on you can look around without pressing anything but you must press RB to then use heli controls

[civic berry]

set this to YES and you dont have to press anything and have full control and the ability to look around at all times without needing to do anything.

[misty bear]

Yes that’s the setting

[civic berry]

and you dont have to use the freelook keybind to look around with it on

[misty bear]

I will try to send a video of it

Thanks for your help so far

Please excuse my setup

This was with Controller freelook in aircraft set to no

[civic berry]

wait ik whats going on

can you go to the controllers tab and tell me what your preset's set to?

[misty bear]

Updated

Anti torque set to LT and RB

[civic berry]

i recommend setting it to legacy. it is far, far better. you dont have to hold X to reload among other things

granted, kind of a big learning curve switching to it but it's so worth it. the "updated" preset is ass

[misty bear]

I used legacy when I first started in 2023 and just got used to the new controls.

[civic berry]

ok thats understandable

im gonna be completely real here if i just found out i could switch presets like 4 months after it got changed i would definitely just stick with the new controls

[misty bear]

I did have it switched to legacy right after the switch but it kept interfering with other controls i guess it was just bugged at that time

[civic berry]

unfortunate

[misty bear]

I’ll just stick to transport helicopters until it changed

Thanks for your help

[civic berry]

yeah youre welcome, sorry it kinda got you nowhere tho

[misty bear]

No I got it set up

Legacy overall with some updated part with the most heli controls set to legacy mode

Thanks again

I forgot how easy flying was in legacy

[river lake]

I do this
https://feedback.bistudio.com/T189983

[flint musk]

Not sure if this has been raised before but I suggest we need the follow. Increase render range of all air vehicles to 1.2-1.5km

Right now I can hammer a point in vanilla from 1km away with no risk. Its super accurate and with proper call outs I can hit enemies accurately in the Huey.

It makes it near impossible to defend against helis with the 700m render range in game.

Its a bit silly that my community server has a 2km network range in the config but nothing spawns past 700m... whhhhhhhy.

Have it like ArmA 3 where you could have different render ranges for vics/air vics/infantry basically.

[wise grove]

What does network view distance do then if not that?

[flint musk]

No idea... we have it set to 2km but tested tonight and it was about 600m to 700m...

Unless they borked something in the update...

Well they borked a few things already.

[primal meteor]

I don't know if this relevant but I used to use the spacebar key as a keybind for one of the helicopter controls, for some reason after this update I can no longer use spacebar as a keybind. Perhaps this could be looked into?

[maiden condor]

Or just set the max render for everything to 5k🙏

[spring veldt]

On PC freelooking in helicopters was changed, I would prefer it to be back to how it was where you can toggle between freelook and locked point, and holding alt would allow you to do the opposite of what was currently toggled and would return to normal after releasing alt

[gaunt garden]

It can be changed in the gameplay settings.

[latent plover]

Why is there no minigun variants for the hueys?

Whether for the gunners or the pilot

[ancient girder]

because its not vietnam. In reforgers timeframe within the branch of the US army only 160th SOAR had access to remaining inventory of m134 miniguns, but they didnt operate Hueys. Even then for the helos it was employed on ( MH60, and MH/AH6 Littlebirds) due to it being out of production had an issue of spare parts and keeping them operation until the post cold war era where some startup defense contractors starting reproducing new parts and or new variation of the M134

AFAIK even today when M60 door guns have been phased out for M240's the m134 remains exclusive to 160th.

[latent plover]

Oh so why aren't the m240s used?

[ancient girder]

the M240's were initially only used as coaxial and armored vehicle mounted machineguns in the 1980s timeframe.

adoption for us as a infantry weapon or helicopter door gun variation didn't come into frution until post cold war.

at least for the US army.

[latent plover]

Not even the m23 and m21 weapon systems?

[ancient girder]

those systems predated M240D and M240H never made compatible afaik.

the cheif primary source material would be the operators/technical manuals. none of them show any M240 references on the Uh1H. Only the M60 door guns.

[spark wave]

Army were still using M60Ds on the Blackhawk (UH-1H's replacement) during the invasion of Iraq in 2003

[ancient girder]

Yeah Seems the USMC were earlier adopters of the M240 on helos. M240D referenced. in Uh1N Airborne weapons/stores loading manual - sept 1st, 1996. But its still absent in the the 2009 revision of the Uh60A/L manual even though FN own site says M240H entered service in US army helos in 2004.

[spark wave]

Probably in the UH-60M manual instead since those were coming along at roughly the same time as the M240H

[ancient girder]

Yea so like 2009ish. But I guess it just wasn't updated in manual of the older blackhawk variations still in service. A photo I found Wikimedia commons of a m240h in a ch47 from January 2009. Thought It may be as early as 2007 since fir DCS ED claims to be mdelling a ch47f of its initial service year and it had the m240h as an alternative armament option to the M60D

https://www.flickr.com/photos/33896385@N03/3353285855/

[brazen fable]

hear me out... 2 guns, more boolits

[ivory yew]

Still waiting for the coke can dlc for the M60s

[primal meteor]

Ok so I've been using the Mi-8 rocketpod variant on Arland official servers and I can say its absolutely fun but also broken

I was clapping America's cheeks diddy style all day long yesterday

It's not that the helicopter is broken itself but the American team unable to defend themselves against my precise rocket attacks from long distances

You might say to use a 50 cal in which they did use but it didn't help them

So I think it may be the time to add manpads and countermeasures for helicopters but that's a whole different topic

Just wanted to put this out there

[ancient girder]

they can use an LAV25. but people been complaining about 25mm rounds even HET over penetrating the Mi8 and doing barely any damage

haven't yet gotten the opportunity to use LAV vs soviet mi8 yet so i just have to take other peoples word for it atm.

[wise grove]

I dont think it even can overpenetrate. It just doesnt do damage to vehicles much

[brazen fable]

they need to have an early warning system in place, sounds like a uncoordinated team that deserves being blown up by your salvos

[primal meteor]

nah, i had their radio with me so I was listening to everything they were saying, I can say that they were well coordinated, problem is that they don't have effective tools to respond to the threat

[primal meteor]

they tried, but lav25 is turret is so slow, might as well use a 50 cal humvee

[wise grove]

I tested and confirmed it. All HE rounds in the game have 0 penetration so they do no damage to vehicle components, just base damage to the Hull

[azure forge]

yeah and wanna say I think the marines got them first? either way i'd rather get a GAU-21 variant of the Huey

but at that point it sort of snowballs into a UH-1N since its way more common during the time to rock an M2/GAU-21

[slate hatch]

Medical Huey Would be Awesome to Make medical role more intensive

[ancient girder]

A uh1v sure. As long as it's not just a copy paste of current uh1h with a red cross painted on it.

[wintry owl]

It’d be even cooler if we could drag our casualties lol

[keen wyvern]

So what's with the smoke?

[brazen fable]

yeah the amount of times I wished I could just drag folks out of line of fire before smoke disappears. being able to drag casualty and load them into any vehicle would be very neat

[primal meteor]

just wanted to share this : )

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/592874926432714773/1330330447355580549/8e5fcf02ffcffbc2c22220d843cbc0f7.gif

[wintry owl]

Medivac helicopters are useless rn unless we get something like that

[hot spade]

death is cheap. No need to bother for medevac. Just hit respawn. Unless you feel regret missing your hyper expensive gear, when you respawn

[river lake]

Depends where you are and what's happening

But yeah I see what you're saying

[primal meteor]

I agree

Honestly after 1k hours of playing I have yet to see somebody acting as a medic and people calling for ambulances

[pine patio]

Fr

[brazen fable]

imagine every time you die you lose a significant amount of rank...

[keen wyvern]

That would be bad simply because ppl would be scared of playing. No one would defend bases.

[hot spade]

I implore for everyone to leave it at that, because we're currently at gunship helicopter thread 😅

[pine patio]

More like no one would attack

[brazen fable]

fair

to get it back on track, how cool would searchlights mounted to m60 door guns be? similar to sog pf

[civic berry]

i dont think theyd be used, just makes the heli easier to see at night

[brazen fable]

a heli is already ridiculously easy to spot from its noise and silhouette against the sky, visibility for door gunners at night would not only increase their lethality and accuracy at night but also provide a dazzling effect from would be rpg operators on the ground that would otherwise see a perfect outline of aircraft

everyone is so scared of light emmision in this game to the point where its tactical benefits are completely untapped

[ancient girder]

Crew cheif and or door gunners would be issued nvgs like pilots.

[brazen fable]

yeah I only really found very few examples of large searchlights on night recon helicopters in nam, but darn the ones on sog pf are cool. but realisim first

[heavy furnace]

Yeah, but the problem is people aren't scared to attack, meaning people will run directly into gunfire at the hopes of getting just a single kill before respawning.

[brazen fable]

bingo, meat waves galore. I once killed the same guy running across the forest form beuregard to farm 3 times in a row, on the fourth time I made sure to simply maime and then told him to stop and help his team better, by the way this dude was a soviet and was carrying an rpg with 5 available rounds each trip. this is why americans can so easily get their hands on an rpg

[azure forge]

Id take flares over searchlights personally, same vain as sogpf too. Smokes too for marking locations and targets

[woven aurora]

Please have wind affect helicopter physics (hover, forward flight, etc.) make crosswind a factor.

[delicate trail]

+1 for the downward unmanned m60, and for being able to close the doors..

[brazen fable]

the ability to use or rest a turret whilst you are in turret seat is something devs NEED to add, this would not only be beneficial for this scenario but also whilst using .50 cal if user simply wants to not use the gun or instead use binoculars, same with the commander m240 on lav

[brazen fable]

crosswind would be awesome

[wintry owl]

I agree flying should be more difficult

[brazen fable]

Didnt they change the collective in exp? Isnt it now more of a variable throttle as opposed to the up down simple flight model esque thing we have in stable?

Would love autorotation, and the ability for tail rotor to snap off, maybe even throw people out the sides depending on turn speed similar to the current system with trucks

[wintry owl]

They’ve added settings to do that but it’s completely optional in my testing

Autorotation is a must tho ngl

[brazen fable]

Yeah, i didnt notice it last flight on exp, thought it would have been forced

For the upcoming hardcore servers this and zero driving assistance must be locked

[ancient girder]

Not exactly gunship related but I always thought that hueys should have a variant that had a configuration with all seats removed save for the corner gunner seats. So you can have more internal volume to carry supplies. Or on the context of gunships that weight of rockets and door guns already made hueys heavy enough that you couldn't expect to also carry a squad of infantry into battle as it would only make the aircraft heavier thus seats were also removed.

That's not to say that you couldn't seat people on the floor of a seatless huey or with legs dangling out with open doors.

Sog prarie fire still allowed this so the seatless hueys weren't useless if anyone did require transport.

[brazen fable]

Dustoff variant, we need it

[heavy furnace]

I would love to see the ability to carry gunship rockets in your hand/backpack. To often is it more reliable to land near a helipad but not directly on it, would be nice to be able to manually carry rockets away from the heli pad and put them in the gunships.

[undone gate]

I think the game manual is still missing a section on helicopter fire modes that are used with R and V.

[alpine crow]

Maybe I'm imagining this, but the Hueys in particular, even the basic ones, feel really sluggish - slow to climb and cumbersome.

[heavy furnace]

That’s a Huey for y’a

[ancient girder]

compared to the Mi8's the hueys aren't cumbersome.

[alpine crow]

Honestly.

They feel a little too similar to that cow of the skies.

[keen wyvern]

I don't think this should be possible.

Helicopters peaked in 1.3 exp.

[ancient girder]

oh cool i can reproduce that in DCS.

[keen wyvern]

Wouldn't it just break?

[wintry owl]

The speedometer thingy? Yea I’m pretty sure it’s broke already ngl

[ancient girder]

Don't think so

[keen wyvern]

So if the Mi-8 has a cruising speed of 250 kph why is it so hard to reach higher speeds? Because I feel like it should smoke the nam relic easily.

[ancient girder]

So does the huey have issue with reaching higher speeds then. I know you reached that 150 knots by getting altitude and getting into steep dive to get past its advertised vne rather then taking off and gaining that much speed doing level flight nap of the earth

[keen wyvern]

Yeah there were 2 of us and we vaporized an Mi-8 with 3 rockets.

One thing that bothers me is that when you repair a helicopter the instruments remain broken and fixing the hull doesn't restore the glass.

[ancient girder]

sounds like he wasn't managing his speed or altitude properly. IF Uh1 and Mi8 meet each other at comparable altitudes the mi8 has the ability to disengage and use its faster speeds to run away.... Like if the mi8 has enough atltitude to work with you can easily exceed 300 KM/H in a dive. here i got like just shy of 350 KMH. thats 188 knots. so you still faster then Hueys 150-155 Knot overspeed in a steep dive.

but its also worth remembering that helicopter aren't fixed wing planes designed for interception/ air to air combat . SO even tactical manuals will say that helicopter pilots were to meet an adversary helo head to head they cant rely on speed to outrun them. Like sure it would be one thing to outrun fixed guns or evne unguided rockets, from some very old helicopter design But in the context of that tactics manual, helo pilots have to expect gunships will have either some guided missile or at the very least flexible minigun/autocannons.

[brazen fable]

i guess it is a similar thing to the m151 over 40mph

[ancient girder]

the M151 definately has a higher top speed then 40mph. it say 66mph( 106km/h) although the max is 100 kph in reforger and it doesnt let you got faster even down a steep hill

[brazen fable]

Yes, but from what I have heard speeds above this can be extremely dangerous due to the nature of the vehicles handling

[ancient girder]

Doesn't it it depend on the surface you are driving on too? Perfetly paved Straight road vs offroad?

From what I read the m151 handling issues were fixed by redesigning the rear suspension for the M151A2 variant which is what we have in reforger

[brazen fable]

oh, interesting, i have seen documents about the suspension system in A1 vs A2, but apparently the vehicle also tends to be easy to oversteer at high speeds even on asphalt

[brazen fable]

https://youtu.be/raRGhzIopJc this is a good video, completely offtopic, but good

[keen wyvern]

The MUTT was so dangerous it was not even allowed to be sold to the public.

[ancient girder]

from what i saw in the video its mirros what i read. it just recommends as a precation to slow down during turns to prevent roll overs, which the early variants in particular prior A2 versions had a bad reputation for. There is notthing about not reaching max speed on a straight asphalt road.

in any case in reforger just like in real life its harder to cause a humvee to roll over due to its wide body design

[ancient girder]

it can be sold to public. its just not highway rated. but neither is the humvee.

[keen wyvern]

It's supposed to be the most dangerous vehicle in the game and yet its the most stable at speed..

[ancient girder]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKP2O1yqh78

its maybe unstable if you try to do agressive cornering at too fast a speed. but it seems to be able to drive fine in a straight line on highway.

i dont think anyone IRL is going 60 MPH offroading in a grassfield even in a humvee

[chrome grail]

Werent the tires also pretty bad

[keen wyvern]

Its an offroad vehicle.. it was bad and flipped easily causing a lot of injuries and dead. The rear suspension was to blame and the revision/improvement didn't help much.
Those sources...
I noticed the other day that when my co-pilot took control of our Mi-8 the animations of him piloting were not working.

[ancient girder]

yes and ive flipped it easier then i have a humvee in reforger. But i think the cheif reason the m151 is relatively stable is becuase the one in reforger is the M151A2 variant that has new suspension. Not the M151 or M151A1.

there are of course less limitations on how players can handle vehicles offroad because Reforger isn't Mudrunner.

[alpine crow]

The game being set in 1989, that seems entirely reasonable.

The US would mostly be riding around in HUMVEEs anyways.

[faint rock]

Mi-8 got massively nerfed in 1.6, LAV-25 is now unstoppable AA as you need direct S-5 hits on it to reliably kill it.

This ends up with even more US air domination with Huey being massively superior than Mi-8 in absolutely every single aspect. (More supplies or useless seats doesn't count)

[keen wyvern]

The Mi-8 is again too slow. I shouldn't lose altitude trying to reach its cruising speed of 250 kph. As for the LAV's ability to kill it, well its easier to kill hueys with a BRDM/BTR so you just have to avoid it.

[ancient girder]

gosh if people really think Uh1H somehow allows US team to dominate the skies i really dont want to think how people playing on the soviet team will cope against AH64A apache in Arma 4... especially during night time operation.

[ancient girder]

right now there isnt even a differentation between flight models of Mi8 without rocket pods vs the one armed with hardpoints and rocket pods. With rocket pods i dont think you would reach 250 KPH as easily. if at all.

same with the Huey to be fair. but i think mi8 would end up being much more affected in speed department given the drag of those hardpoints and carrying more pods

[wintry owl]

Helicopters with weapons should have drawbacks

Maybe they’re less manoeuvrable and stuff

[ancient girder]

even flying in DCS the Uh1H doesnt really have noticable issues with maneuverability. Its just 2 small pods. Its more a weight issue. You have less lift. so you cant climb as fast. but thats why generally speakinga Huey on gunship duty wouldnt be carrying a squad of soldiers at the same time.

the hueys for transporting troops would be left to "slicks" and would not having anything more then door guns.

[chrome grail]

Give VRS to reforger or a4

i want to crash my mi8 cuz im going too slow

[ancient girder]

but again the Huey limitations is the fact its a smaller helicopter with less space/seats so it cant carry as many troops or supplies as mi8. But in arma 4 i see UH1H relegated to being a lower supply cost lower rank locked vehicle in conflict. UH60 will carry more troops/ supplies then UH1 but still be more manuverable and easier to fly then the mi8. so its basically going to be a larger faster Uh1.

[faint rock]

Its not "people think" its just a plain fact, Confict is still 247 Huey spam because they're better in every way possible and for the wrong reasons

Wrong reason being delayed draw of helicopters which makes huey appear to take no damage on hits while in fact there was no real hit.

Same delay applies to Mi-8 but due to its size its much less pronounced and thus much easier to hit, especially with LAV-25

Now with huge FFAR spread on Mi-8 its a unfavorable dice roll to kill LAVs, while they lase you out of the sky

[ancient girder]

Bi could of given Mi8 option for carrying rocket pods for the larger S8 rockets.which would be more comparable to the American rockets. but i recall they have more spread then s5 rockets with how they perform in DCS.....

so your trading accuracy for a larger warhead in such instance

So there really isnt any way to make the mi8 better unless they can figure out a way to tweak its flight model to make it a bit more nimble, but itl never be maneuverable like a huey. all it can count on is faster speed and a larger payload of rockets.

[faint rock]

Having S8 could've helped as LAV can survive direct HEDP hits sometimes, I've seen it in 1.4, now I couldn't destroy a single one in my few attempts, rockets are all over the place and you need to unload your entire FFAR load to increase hit odds rather than aiming better as before

[ancient girder]

I think way Mi8 handles prepares soviet players on how the Mi24 will be expected to handle in arma 4. even faster. but also very poor manuverability.

[faint rock]

Mi-8 practically has less rockets than Huey, its 8 bursts vs 14 shots

In practice it means Mi-8 can engage targets 8 times, Huey can 14 times, as well as other downsides like 3-4 times longer reload time

[ancient girder]

going into A4 overall expect the US to have technical supremacy with most vehicles on a 1:1 basis. as they did IRL.... exceot that IRL the soviets had a massive land army, so US armed forces would have thier work cut out for them trying to stop hordes of Soviet mechanized and armor forces.. within a video game... all i can think of is that they can make Soviet vehicles have a cheaper supply cost in Conflict.

[faint rock]

As far as I understand this S5 spread is realistic, but it worsened aircraft situation even more than in 1.4 now

Simply balancing prices wont help, countering spam with more spam is a bad idea

What should really be done is getting rid of huge draw delay on the helicopters so people can finally hit them

And Hueys should also have their flight model tweaked to not be able to do insane acts of barrel rolls on a penny, this will balance out both air combat and transport performance

[ancient girder]

I mean overall there is a reason why both Soviet and Americans started putting AGTM;'s for attack helicopters... becuase unguided rockets arent precise enough. You get better accuracy as you get closer but that puts you in greater danger of guns hitting you.

but even if that was in scope for Reforger i think people wouldnt like being knocked out by a guided missiles from multiple kilometers away. for stuff like that you cant really counter that except with self propelled air defense systems.

[keen wyvern]

I've said it before. They had the Mi-8 dialed in in 1.3 exp. It didn't pull back and was able to reach more realistic speeds without losing so much altitude.
The loss of helicopters can be mitigated by having good coms. The Bushmaster has a very loud distinct sound and if one is detected you should avoid that area. Expecting to kill a LAV-25 just because you have rocket pods doesn't even make sense. These are area of effect weapons.
If you are expecting to win helicopter dogfights you are doing it wrong. If there are multiple hueys rocketing everything you only need a BTR/BRDM to deal with them.

[ancient girder]

my issue with Mi8 flight model has always been its turn.... it shouldnt be as bad as it is in game. In a flight sim like DCS although not huey tier manuverable it can pull a much tighter turn then it can reforger. the only consequence is it cannot sustain a tight turn and bleeds its speed and very shortly your slow enough to basically be in a hover. wheras the Huey similar to reforger in DCS can pretty much sustain a fairly tight but constant turning circle

as for top speed perhaps they could make it easier to reach 250 kp/h but imo that should only be the case of the transport Mi8. not gunship configuration when it has external hardpoints with all 6 rocket pods mounted. IN DCS it just affects its top speed. its almost impossible to reach that cruising speed in level flight. you have have enough altitude that you can trade for speed in a dive.

[faint rock]

Delay visualized, helicopter in front is transformation directly from the server, the one in the back is what you really see. 0 ping.

Annoying bug I had recently, happens when switching between seats on a laggy server. Had it months ago but didn't record, made a video this time. No repro of course, happens when server lags.

[heavy furnace]

Has anyone figured out why this occurs (sorry don't feel like reading up if it's there)

[faint rock]

Engine aspect, no comments from devs yet

[alpine crow]

That's before you get to night optics. The Soviets were...poorly placed when it came to IR optics for vehicles, had practically nothing for infantry, and had maybe 5 units of a very rudimentary thermal optic built as prototypes.

[alpine crow]

In all fairness, apparently the Mi-8 is a flying cow of a helicopter IRL too.

[chrome grail]

If you pull too hard on cyclic you lose your tail

[alpine crow]

Unexpected realism?

[ancient girder]

Yeah that's the biggest disadvantage. Not having thermals on vehicles.

[ancient girder]

Not as bad as it is in reforger. I have the mi8 module in dcs it's maneuverability isn't as bad as it is reforger.

[ancient girder]

Only past maybe 210ish kph. In dcs I can yank the cyclic all the way at those speeds and not lose the tail..

It offers a much better turn. You just bleed your speed very fast doing so wheras the huey is better at sustaining energy in turns.

[keen wyvern]

One time I played with the values in workbench and made it better, but a bit too good, then went back and instantly worse 😡 .
Anyway the one thing I really dislike is that it takes off without any imput and spins on its own. That sucks.

Many Mi-8 tail rotors were lost because the thing decides to spin just because.

Also the state of the Mi-8 pods doesn't replicate sometimes. They will be full for some and empty to others..

[faint rock]

This happens after rearm AND locality change

You'll then have to sell all remaining rockets (if you shoot any you're fucked and have to rejoin), sell the pod, buy the pod again, fill it up

Same bug for hueys

100% reproducible

100% lazy to submit it

[keen wyvern]

Do it!

[ancient girder]

i have to wonder if this isnt happening to a certain extent with infantry running parrallel fasion. compared to other games i have a more difficult time leading shots in reforger compared to other game

[faint rock]

This is so tiresome.

Mi-8: Flies off by itself even on a flat ground with engine off, rolls down like a cart off a slightest hill even with breaks applied
Huey: Magically super glues you to the ground as soon as you touch with a micron of your skids, even if you land tilted at 45 degrees and stays magnetized even on 45 degree slopes

Fixing stuff like this is what would improve the balance without affecting realism

[wintry owl]

It perplexes me how metal skids somehow have more traction than proper wheels in reforger

Granted I don’t really fly the mi8 or do supply runs completely on my own

[ancient girder]

yeah wiith how runaway helos with are with wheels in reforger i think that it was maybe a blessing in disguise that US faction got the older Uh1H for reforger instead of Uh60A

[faint rock]

I think its just bugged and misconfigured, wheels should hold better, Mi-8 should not take off by itself, Huey skids should not instantly glue you to the ground

[keen wyvern]

It shouldn't take off unless you pull the collective, but it will and it will also move backwards.
It shouldn't spin on its own either.

[woven aurora]

Technically neutral collective is 50%

[faint rock]

I was holding collective down until very end. Mi-8 in general just refuses to keep the ground, complete opposite of Huey which glues you to the ground

[ancient girder]

same feeling in dcs. skids keep u glued to the ground except helos with wheels dont just wander around with collective on 0 especially not with brakes on.

[woven aurora]

Needs inertia to be recomputed, which tends to solve the landing gear failure to solve state issues