Very few addons expand on the base game factions
#creator_dlc_discussion
cunning nacelle
cunning nacelle
The groups using vanilla content most likely use that because they want to appeal to people who dont want to dl large modpacks
zealous turtle
Plus some things here and there
muted narwhal
if you expect A4 to feature more real life stuff, i wouldn't hold my breath
considering all the licensing headache
A4 = future BI military game
whatever is gonna be named
hallow parrot
I'd say A4 in 2023-25 settings but in an Armaverse design is gud for me
hallow parrot
I don't see there's a mess
wraith sleet
tbh, going back to balkan era that A2 had would be best imo
didn't really like the near future take that arma 3 did
i just want ||arma 3 that runs at a decent framerate||
ebon sedge
I'd love a WW2 A4 of course, but imo the devs can do whatever scenario they want and I'll most likely be able to have fun with it
As long as they dont start doing laser guns that is 
cunning nacelle
I think A3 marked widespread sandbox usage that included large overhaul content addons, whether that be for different time periods or simply the numerous life/dayz clone groups. Thats what gave a2 life but again, A2 was working with a bunch of vanilla assets those groups and mods would use, whereas with A3's content people were putting together overhaul packs.
So for a future game i think having the ability to download the platform and then having more of an ability to customize what is neccessary/loaded by base game would make more sense
Especially given the success of the a2 steam dayz game page and separate appID.
knotty ore
In the end "base game" is quite a lot I think, shared sounds, textures, terrains, buildings, environment assets, effects, animations, game engine itself. You would not save much any space if you separate the few vehicles and uniforms that are "scifi"
cunning nacelle
I do not agree, people download mods that have terrains, buildings, textures, majority of used sounds, etc that can enable missions with next to no vanilla content used. Common data re: a2/a2oa.
hallow parrot
No vanilla content? How about voices?
cunning nacelle
If you mean people only using the uniforms/weapons of a mod faction and not the identities of units from mods like RHS then sure
hallow parrot
Also, not everybody wants to make every data that used in a CDLC/MODs. Removing all vanilla data is really a bad idea, that will corrupt some CDLC/MODs
cunning nacelle
I am suggesting a platform style for the next game, it's far too late for a3
hallow parrot
Fair
ebon sedge
tbh I think the people that dont like the sci-fi setting should just get over it instead of expecting BI to put in more work to seperate the vanilla stuff or something like that
sand coral
It wasnβt even really a sci-fi setting
Most everything there was pretty much kit in development atm or already in existence
I do kind of hope that whatever A4 is they do it in something like the late β90s early 2000s
somewhere in South America or Africa, that could work quite well
Post-Soviet world order allowing for a lot of conflicts
lucid depot
I'd pick a more futuristic era, or just something in the current era. But as long as they give us all the tool and technologies to make whatever we want in whatever era we want, I don't care much π
void yoke
I'm a sucker for new assets
which is why Iw as bummed when I saw GM was going to be separate
muted narwhal
for what is worth, i would rather have the whatever new game they make more of a platform, with even less base content, but with modern modding support tools, and a newer up to date engine
in any case, it has nothing to do with cDLC
i don't mind the era picked, be it ww1 or alien drop ships
as long as the engine supports everything inbetwee
wraith sleet
dont know how logical it would be to do so, But i wouldnt mind if they remastered Arma 3 on a new engine keeping same assets maps etc. hopefully allowing mods + maps greater freedom and better overall performance the only thing stopping me from enjoying a gun fight in KOTH is the 10-20 fps.
ebon sedge
I assume you mean Arma 3? @wraith sleet
Also this seems like more of a #general_chat_arma topic
wraith sleet
yes oop
wraith sleet
Does BI still own all the licenses from Arma 2? Trijicon for example.
lean sail
afaik does BI not have licenses for brand names (although Trijicon was credited in Arma 2), hence why the vanilla game doesn't have real brand names.
Ps. not sure how this question applies to CDLC thoug
open mulch
If you want to use real names or Logo you need a proper License from the rights Holder even in a CDLC see at GM for example, no MAN, Volkswagen, Sachsenring or other real logos are used.
tepid lance
Slight correction: Only trademarked names/logos need to be either avoided or licensed, not all real names/logos.
red saddle
You didn't license your usage of "Dedmen" π
tall sparrow
Is there any news on new CDLC? I haven't been following
arctic seal
nope
red saddle
there has been a new GM update
tall sparrow
Alright, thanks!
ebon rover
Maybe Toadies involved with something
Her latest tweet about something big coming is suspicious
steady gale
I think it was said before that yeah toadie is involved in some CDLC
past sparrow
There has been a post on the Reddit about a possible Vietnam CDLC
The post seems fairly well reasoned but always cautious
red saddle
"ArmA" π€¦ββοΈ
red saddle
maybe removed them himself because of like he said it doesn't work
past sparrow
Yeah probably.
Their company website has a picture of them on the BI Tank π
Not exactly like its been hidden either
bright eagle
I'm hoping at least 1 of the Creator DLC has the ARMA 3 / 2030's theme.
Well, Bohemia didn't say that it's only DLC that doesn't fit that theme, so I've still got hope.
hallow parrot
I kinda also π€
bright eagle
I really love the 2030's time line. I'm kinda hoping ARMA 4 is set in a similar era. At the earliest, the late 2020's.
I'm just hoping the Creator DLC can provide some extra content that fits in with the mainline ARMA 3 content.
hallow parrot
2025-2035-2040 lore is really good to go for me. It's really original and not something done by thousands of games/movies like WW2
void yoke
yeah I really like modern scenarios where you see fully developed versions of current prototypes
tepid lance
The official AAF retex of GM is really popular, so there is definitely a big audience waiting. π
prisma mountain
Would love more 2034 content. But sadly think we are just going to get lots of m16s AKs and m113s
ebon sedge
I say the future is bright 
open mulch
it feels to me, that the majority want more actual in use or historical/old stuff instead of prototypes. But i can be wrong.
ebon sedge
I think a good way to combine the two would be to make a cdlc that adds more guerilla style factions
prisma mountain
I mean we got two of them.
Both seem pretty flushed out after the Tank DLC giving them more technicals.
Another thing I would be down for is a sci-fi mod of some sort.
ebon sedge
Eh Sci-fi isnt really my thing
But I think guerilla style factions (or just poorer nations militaries) could make for a nice connection between the futuristic setting and people wanting more old stuff since they could add old stuff while still fitting it into the situation
prisma mountain
True, I would think it would have to come with it's own map though.
Since guerilla factions are very anchored to their country/map.
ebon sedge
Yeah thats true
warm zodiac
prisma mountain
Most the sci-fi mods use dated chunky scripts and weird damage ratios though.
knotty ore
Most of them are getting quite old
prisma mountain
Yea, would be nice to see one that is more professionally done. With it's own lore/universe. Make use of the new ERA systems, vehicle in vehicle, ect.
devout turtle
some sort of time portal, so you can pass between 2035 and 1985 etc...
ebon sedge
devout turtle
my preference would be to go back in time and close the portal lol
ebon sedge
That sounds like an excuse to have a mission combining vanilla and GlobMob 
devout turtle
all these thermal imaging helmets and weapons with 100 gadgets leave me cold. i want some wood (oo-er) on my gun
devout turtle
i managed a complete ovehaul of call of duty united offensive about 10 years ago, was great fun getting in deep with all the kit
ebon sedge
I dont think I've played that game before
devout turtle
it was the expansion of the very first cod, i pulled together a mod that was quite popular but kept bumping into max-gamestate, as we were putting in too many new factors
we have engine limits in arma 3 too, but thankfully they're not as limiting
ebon sedge
Sounds cool 
Hm I can find united offensive on steam through the browser but not in the client
ebon sedge
only cod's I've actually played are WaW and 2, but this is getting quite off topic now
Except if you've about to announce that you're porting call of duty to arma as a CDLC
devout turtle
hell no, that would suck. i hate cod these days
ebon sedge
prisma mountain
I think the thermal stuff could of easily been toned down for gameplay reasons.
Like, I love GM for those reasons, but the question will be for the future CDLCs how many copies of the same guns will we get?
I mean even if you don't go future, there is quiet a few eras and wars that are pretty unique. Like the Korean War for example.
hallow parrot
how many copies of the same guns
M4A1 from CDLC Alpha, M4A1 from CDLC Bravo, from CDLC Charlie, from RHS, from CUP, from NIArms, from other MODs,... π
prisma mountain
Then you make the mistake of grabbing the one gun without proxy mags enabled π¦
I mean if people are looking for creative freedom for a 2035 theme, why not re-hual chern or Sahrani? Would be great to see how much they changed in 2035. What political context has evolved, ect.
muted narwhal
because none of that can be done by a 3rd party
prisma mountain
I'm sure they could come to a agreement with BI.
I'm pretty sure I posted in the forums at some point when they suggested this idea. But my first thought was they should of required it all to be 2035 themed. That way they had a easier reason to integrate it into the game, and people could see more expansions to the existing factions or even new ones.
muted narwhal
BI allows some of their assets to be used in CDLCs
but no, they do not allow their terrains to be re-used
prisma mountain
Oh I met a 100% re-haul
Like, at most the initial SAT map, but like Malden 2035 redone.
wraith sleet
There already is a Chernarus overhaul that was made by CUP for free
void yoke
I think thats made over the original one
wraith sleet
It's still a big upgrade, the forests are lush and dense, the terrain is expanded some, new buildings and installations were added
prisma mountain
The big difference though is the height map resolutions are much lower. Regular Malden and Malden 2035 is a huge difference in terrain elevation/detail.
hazy pumice
I think thats made over the original one Chernarus Plus was "made over the original one" pretty much until the 0.63 terrain rework
ashen belfry
Like the Korean War for example.
That will always have my vote. Its such a unique time frame. Its right in the transition period with propeller and jet powered aircraft. In a way, its like WW1 with horses fighting alongside of tanks.
hallow parrot
I know nothing about Korean War honestly, but will be a great idea and concept for sure.
But also want some Japanese-themed or involved things as a Japanese, with well made Japanese voice over units. Good Ol' Battle over Hokkaido.
devout turtle
it was the only time in history that the UN effectively declared war on a sovereign power. And it changed everything geopolitically. It ended up in a toe-to-toe fight between the world, driven my Macarthur and china driven by Mao.
initially a very dynamic war, from american landing in a tiny enclave remaining in south korea, to them pushing back to the 38th parallel wit ha lot of world forces involved (scores of countries), then, Macarthur pushed up and right to the chinese border, which is widely considered to be a mistake, as china then unleashed half a million "volunteers" to push them back to the 38th parallel, away from their border.
once they got back to the 38th parallel, there was trench warfare for a year while negotiations went on. eventually the cease-fire held, but to this day the war has not ended.
equipment wise its basically a mixture of vietnam and ww2, with a few unique items (specially aviation and armour)
this is a good primer, if you're really interested in its history
hallow parrot
Interesting story
tall sparrow
Oh, absolutely. I know I'm very late to the conversation but a good Korean War SP campaign could prove to be great
grizzled pond
can use content from dlc on normal servers ??
ebon sedge
depends on wether the servers allow the cdlc content @grizzled pond
ebon sedge
wat
arctic seal
@grizzled pond
afaik people who don't have the CDLC can not join the server if CDLC content is used
hazy pumice
They can with the Compatability Mod...
grizzled pond
i try but i dont remember how to run server XD i test it soon
brisk pewter
That will always have my vote. Its such a unique time frame. Its right in the transition period with propeller and jet powered aircraft. In a way, its like WW1 with horses fighting alongside of tanks.
would kill for 1951 carrier ops
devout turtle
my dad served on a cruiser shelling north korea during that war
wraith sleet
will there be future creator dlcs?
red saddle
yes.. well multiple are in development, would be rather stupid to not release them
hallow parrot
Until they reveal, we wouldn't know
wraith sleet
damn
hallow parrot
Maybe some of Bohemians or devs of CDLCs may know about it but they'll never speak to you about their project until its reveal
steady gale
there is one that is strongly rumored to be ||vietnam||
but we don't know of any specifics
karmic harness
I'm sure the user "Dedmen" would know a thing or two about CDLCs but he's gone quiet, lately. Can't find any new posts from him, on this Discord π
hazy pumice
It was a bot Stack... I heard a rumour that the Dwarden AI turned it off
karmic harness
there is one that is strongly rumored
I've heard that CDLC devs have to sign an NDA so if someone claims that they know what a future CDLC will be about [edit: and tell you what they will actually be, obviously] they are either breaching the NDA or simply have no clue themselves (and are purely guessing) @wraith sleet
wraith sleet
aight b
hallow parrot
If βsomeoneβ is the author?
hallow parrot
We have at least two, maybe three unreleased CDLCs, but who knows its reveal date/release date... for now
mortal plaza
It's all under NDA
steady gale
yeah that's why I said strongly rumored, there is no one thing that has a person saying it is what it is, just a lot of small things that when all added up make a strong case
mortal plaza
there is one that is strongly rumored
I've heard that CDLC devs have to sign an NDA...
Everyone involved has to
wraith sleet
are we talking perhaps a year from now or 2 years
is it gonna be a long waiting span for these dlcs?
mortal plaza
We dunno and those who know are not allowed to tell
lucid depot
Who knows, it can be in 3 days as it can be in 3 years Β―_(γ)_/Β―
mortal plaza
Probably not 3 years..because of development costs though π
lean sail
Arma: Half-Life 3 CDLC confirmed in 3 days!!! π
mortal plaza
:o
lucid depot
π
karmic harness
@lean sail you were supposed to keep quiet about it! π
lean sail
I didn't return the signed NDA yet, so I'm safe π
tepid lance
Think about how much time there was between the announcement and release of the previous CDLC. Assume the same will apply to the next ones.
ebon sedge
Yep CDLC only get announced when they're really ready for release
BI mentions that on the CDLC page iirc
lucid depot
Yeah, in the CDLC FAQ/Q&A they did mention it
sinful cape
i happen to know for a fact that one cdlc is about flamingos
a3 doesn't have any flamingos, so it also makes perfect sense from that side
lean sail
sassy π§
hazy pumice
Was a rumour that one is Wild West... seriously
lean sail
so now we have Half Arma 3, Red Dead Arma, Arma: Hawaii Shirt Edition, ... anything else?
ebon sedge
Clearly a Verdarma WW1 CDLC
karmic harness
Arma Primal with sticks and stones throwing mechanism? π€
solid slate
π€
lucid depot
Yeah, you forgot the best DLC, the L*fe DLC 
hallow parrot
Looks dope
devout turtle
It was in its day a major game
the graphics and gameplay were so advanced. It generated millions for a small company called Atari
ebon sedge
iirc it also got banned in germany
devout turtle
too violent?
ebon sedge
But that might have been a different but similar game
Yep
33 years ago the BPjS said no to "River Raid".
"Young people should think themselves into the role of an uncompromising fighter and annihilator [...]", the BPjS said on 19 December 1984. The reason for this was the game "River Raid" with its disturbing depictions of violence.In the cockpit of a fighter jet, you ruthlessly shoot down enemy helicopters and ships to the point of foaming at the mouth. No wonder that the game landed on the index and was therefore banned.
red saddle
yes
finite cave
Basically community members go to the developers and pitch their idea. If they get approved and their scope/quality of work etc are sufficient, they develop the DLC under developer supervision.
Speaking of, what are your thoughts and rumors? When is the next CDLC dropping and what'll it be? :)
ebon sedge
We know thus far that 2 CDLC's are in development so @finite cave
karmic harness
Do we? @ebon sedge
karmic harness
The problem with rumors is that you never know whether the person telling you something actually knows something for sure or if "his uncle that is an Arma developer told him".
In fact, my uncle, who works at BI, said... π
ebon sedge
muted narwhal
@karmic harness i donβt do that btw. it isnβt about rumors, that being said, working ona cdlc and releasing / getting it approved are 2 different things
karmic harness
I didn't realize that what I wrote above may have passed for me suggesting that you're spreading lies and false rumors. Sorry for that, @muted narwhal, that wasn't my intention :D
What I actually meant was to a tongue-in-cheek way to say: don't always believe what people on the internet are saying, in general, especially if the information has not been officially confirmed
red saddle
@karmic harness
Do we?
As far as I'm aware our sitrep's said "multiple" which implies atleast two.
finite cave
I realize best we can do is gossip and rumor, and I'm fine with that ;)
Hoping for some cold war or even pre ww2 stuff
knotty ore
cavemen?
finite cave
Mostly though I was thinking WW1 and the associated conflicts
sinful cape
sounds super expensive. would need lots of new assets.
red saddle
cavemen?
no, that would be post WW3
fringe quartz
yeah. Sticks & Stones DLC at launch.
karmic harness
Hey! I wanted to state that if that becomes a thing, then I called it first! π @fringe quartz
#creator_dlc_discussion message (although yes, that was just a joke π )
wraith sleet
Arma 3 dlc: first prokaryote
fringe quartz
lol. Great minds think alike; you, me and Einstein
karmic harness
and Einstein
that would be post WW3
There was an Einstein quote about that in Operation Flashpoint, when you died π
sinful cape
inb4 another survival type game
karmic harness
A survival game on Arma's engine? That sounds like something that could sell millions of copies! π
sinful cape
maybe add some zombies into the mix and the sales will double!
wraith sleet
Oh yeah, but to save time reuse the chernarus map, it would make a great setting for such a game!
formal topaz
If you place the USS liberty destroyer on a dedicated server and someone doesnβt have it, does that mean they canβt access the server if they donβt have the DLC?
ebon sedge
I'm pretty sure everyone has the USS Liberty, should be part of the platform update @formal topaz
devout turtle
yeah we issued it as a freebie
ebon sedge
good guy devs
wraith sleet
vietnam CDLC? π€
green folio
Service & Supply? π€
ebon sedge
Job Simulator dlc
wraith sleet
Marathon simulator? π€
supple mason
I'd like to see a creator DLC focused on adding in some more to the 2035 settings, factions vics etc.
green folio
That's why Aegis is here
ebon sedge
I'm personally more interested in historical stuff
sinful cape
it will be historical in a few years
lunar rivet
^ +1
elder star
I want a creator dlc based on that african country the old man is from with the french foreign legion and that whole conflict
steady gale
what african country? Santiagio is tanoan
devout turtle
foreign legion in congo would be interesting, in the 1950-early 1960s, like the siege of Jadotville kinda vibe
dodgy uranium deals, warring factions
hazy pumice
I'd rather have western buildings... you can make African maps fairly easily with existing models...
devout turtle
specops fro msuperpowers
elder star
true would love an african setting
https://armedassault.fandom.com/wiki/Argana the backstory is there
devout turtle
love the hardware and equipment
i was always a sucker for Isla duala
loved that setting
a lot of people want rhodesian wars dlc
hazy pumice
Needs a lot of new buildings for Rhodesia... few existing ones really work for it
devout turtle
so long as it's old tech (no nvg/ thermal/ uav) i'm game. arctic would be cool. greenland cold war vibe
like ice station zebra, in deepest greenland
ice floes
elder star
true but arctic would be hard since the engine can't really do snow and whatnot
devout turtle
would be cool, to see glaciers
hazy pumice
Or Northern Norway at the start of WW3... CrazyMike did a great job on snow in Winter2035 mod btw
devout turtle
yeah. also bludclots norway map dev was awesome
some of the most realistic terrain ive ever seen in a game
hazy pumice
Oh, got to check that out... is it available yet?
hazy pumice
... The Nord map yeah?
devout turtle
shame to let bad community members ruin such beautiful work
hallow parrot
With the big airfield and underground structure, yeah? That's
devout turtle
i nearly downloaded a goose green map i saw on steam the other day, looked cool af.
just dont have time to look at it
hazy pumice
He said it was due to limitations of ARMA... Also said he'd resurrect it if BIS release Chernarus Plus as a DLC... I heartily support that π
hallow parrot
Agreed actually
hazy pumice
Chernarus 2020 is coming along nicely though π
hallow parrot
A2 is already 11 yo. Worth to get remaster!
devout turtle
I'm a sucker for Sahrani too. Loved that map. Popped my Arma cherry on that
hazy pumice
You should really check out Chernarus 2020 in CUP Terrains Maps 2.0 if you have not already...
Use the dev branch version for the latest updates π
devout turtle
I still think Takistan is the best Arma map ever. I know that probably sounds crazy. I just loved the realism of the environment, and the tactical landscape
A lot of terrains feel a bit hemmed in
and not ... exotic ? enough
hazy pumice
I almost agree re: Takistan. For me it is the second best after Taviana
devout turtle
a Takistan expanded to include a real life-size green zone, somewhere like Musa Qala or Now Zad, but with a full size camp bastion and mountain caves would be very cool.
big terrain, mountains, colours, greens reds purples that crazy blue of the sky at dusk. would be sweet in A3
hallow parrot
It's kinda hard question. In lore terms I always love Green Sea region because feels realistic. In terrain, I think I'd pick Tanoa
devout turtle
Tanoa feels too peaceful to me
It's like a holiday resort, an expanded south west sahrani
the closest we have to a war torn fiji is Bougainville
to me, not that exciting a conflict
unless you like coconut economics
in which case bougainville is truly fascinating
hallow parrot
Sahrani actually is cool, feels too small but yeah. There's DMZ, which is really cool setting to place
undone kayak
Meh, please no more takistan maps.
Every military shooter ever has a takistan, Afghanistan or whatever and they all look the same and boring
prisma mountain
I think desert maps can be done right, they just need Altis sorta level of variation.
A proper snow map would be more my thing though. Like not just texture changes, but actually detailing out snow mounds, plowed roads, ect.
knotty ore
Proper snow would be cool feature. As well sand and mud. Maybe not in spintires detail but bit of dynamic surface would go a long way.
lean sail
tbf Blud did a great job with PKL and Vidda (which still should be remade!!!)
hazy pumice
If only Blud would show some love to western Europe or the USA with appropriate building models for a CDLC... Now that would be cool π
red saddle
π€
hazy pumice
My biggest gripe with ARMA at this point is PBR the lack of western buildings. Been working for a while doing a map based on the Channel Island of Jersey... probably won't finish it, mainly because I don't want to set it in Eastern Europe/Middle East (CUP Terrains/ARMA 3 Livonia resources), the Baltics or Med (ARMA 3 Altis/Malden resources) or the Pacific (Apex resources)... or Africa (a mix of all the above) π€·
prisma mountain
I mean if you make a CDLC out of it, might be worth investing in some one to make said buildings.
sinful cape
sadly it's not so easy to find people
and if you find people, you will have to pray that any work will come out of it
in my experience, many of the community are already occupied with something. and hiring from outside the community is tricky, because such folks don't have experience with getting stuff into the a3 engine, which isn't all that easy if you never did it before
best case scenario, you hire from outside and have someone who can port that stuff into a3
devout turtle
that's what we have found to work best. freelancers provide fbx and PBR textures and our core art team do the technical implementation. In the early days we tried t oteach each new artist supershader workflow. As a result we lost 60% of artists within one asset cycle.
Our process has evolved massively in the past year, we've had some great advisers, possibly the best technical supershader artists that any amount of money can buy, and as a result we're very happy with our workflow now. It makes our starting point look so darn amateur.
sinful cape
thing is, if you have the skills to do this stuff right ... you might as well work directly for BI :>
muted narwhal
making buildings isnβt really all that hard, bit what you are suggesting takes a bit of time. cdlc is a long term investment, and there are chances of failure. as such most people prefer to work on things that pay the bills, and eventually do so modding in their spare time
muted narwhal
i already have quite a few us buildings in the work/done. afaik so does @sharp grail
prisma mountain
Think the biggest thing of course is doing that level of work with a promise of pay, rather then pay.
velvet hazel
What are the chances of there actually being more cdlc? We havent heard a thing since GM
ebon sedge
We know that there are CDLC's in the works
We definetly know that one is in the work since Rob has posted advertisements for positions working on it every now and then
And Pufu has also mentioned that he knows of another one but I dont know any more details about other CDLC that are public
prisma mountain
low key hoping all this extra time people have with lockdown might produce a new CDLC this year π
ebon sedge
π
velvet hazel
Have there been any teasers that anyone's aware of?
ebon sedge
I'm not aware of any that are marked as CDLC
velvet hazel
Well Im excited stuff is in the works, even if we have zero idea of what it is.
ebon sedge
I'm pretty sure its gonna be good
lunar rivet
Rob did release an image of a jet's pylon with a missile on it months ago in the creators_recruiting tab. I believe.
velvet hazel
Just spent awhile scrolling for it. I'll take your word for it.
ebon sedge
@lunar rivet @velvet hazel Iirc that picture was only an example of the kind of quality he is looking for and not an actual picture from the CDLC ( CC: @devout turtle )
velvet hazel
Ah that makes a lot of sense
lunar rivet
Ah thanks
sinful cape
Think the biggest thing of course is doing that level of work with a promise of pay, rather then pay.
@prisma mountain well, i pay directly. money is no issue. :>
prisma mountain
I would probably go with what Rob recommends then. Just find at least one core technical artist that can port stuff in, then find 3d people externally.
devout turtle
Ive interviewed well over 300 artists in the past 2 years, hired 100 and lost 60 due to lack of delivery, professional skills, time, focus, capability in practice or just dumb luck. One guy had to go into a mental hospital, another was caught inside syria during lockdown, many have lost their primary jobs due to coronavirus economic impact, some were backstabbers who suddenly demanded upfront payment and were fired on the spot, weβve had some having to divert to other work to help their family, many PC deaths, honestly it has been exhausting maintaining a team to deliver enough content. But having said that, the time invested building our core team and our freelancer pool has been a good investment in the end.
I would say that when you advertise for freelancers, expect 80% to send you hideously poor examples of 3d printing models, 15% to have 1-2 passable models and 4% to have an amazing portfolio including games like COD.
The 4% wont deliver a thing as they always pick up other paid work and dont consider your project valuable
Of the 15% amateurs maybe 2/3 will not have basic communication skills, will call you bro, or not understand english well enough, the 1/3 remaining (5%) will be ok and of them 1-2 will become solid team members
The final 1% will turn up read the spec and follow the workflow and never cause any problems
As a result you have to assess hundreds of wannabes to find enough people to fulfil your backlog
If you could pay each guy even $5k a year then you would be able to build a reliable team much more smoothly
hallow parrot
I think I can understand your feeling. Everything I can do is just wish your luck at your project
devout turtle
I can add that recruiting from the arma community has been a breeze in comparison. Most people are very motivated, passionate and loyal. Their involvement has kept me sane. They dont have much time to commit but the hours they do out in are all spot on and productive
Sorting out workflow is an ongoing evolution as the team expands and develops
Without our IT guys weβd be screwed
arctic seal
why don't you leave the staff management to somebody else and focus on the creative part?
get that off you shoulders
like a human recourses dept
devout turtle
You do get some wonderful people turning up too. One guy from the 3d modelling subreddit has become our permanent recruitment consultant. He headhunts suitable candidates for us, completely unpaid
Hes been so helpful and we will find a way to reward him
arctic seal
that's good to hear
devout turtle
Staff management - id love to have another team member to handle it but they either dont have experience or time. Ive managed companies since 1997, so i can manage a lot of moving parts without crashing and burning
Anyone out there who can manage and motivate staff is likely flat out in their well paid day job or else not interested in making games
I remortgaged my house so i could do this fulltime
Because making games is what ive decided to do for the rest of my career
And i thank bohemia so much for giving me this opportunity
Once we have our second dlc out ( half of B01 is in our team) we should be able to attract more professionals to the table
Weβve even offered to host other potential dlc teams as we have a lot of transferable skills they can benefit from so they can focus on their creation and not get bogged down in the staff issues and legal and financial setup etc
Helping out friends is always a good thing
sinful cape
what do you mean with "host other potential dlc teams"
sacred flint
Cmon, i need others sp contents...i need cDLC! :)
muted narwhal
you sort of confuse this with a request thread
devout turtle
@sinful cape i mean, we can act as primary contractor, handle Bohemia contracting, subcontracting, finances, human resources, IT, workflow, documentation, licensing, planning and overall management. Which allows certain friends to develop a proposal and lead it without having to do all the horrible energy-sapping work they may lack interest in or skills / experience in. If they have a good idea and a strong pitch, and Bohemia is interested, we can offer to support and help them. In return we get some extra work for our team members todo, and more CV points for them, and the company has more titles in future when looking for producers/investors or new professional members
sinful cape
ok, so basically being the middleman
devout turtle
i see it more as being a vehicle that enables them to work
traditionally a middleman is seeking to buy from one guy to sell to another and make profit.
in our case we enable the creator to focus on creating, and get beyond their dreams and turn it into reality, without an enormous setup process and learning curve
sinful cape
what about outsourcing smaller work? like, what if i need something not exactly huge, but not super small either. would you check in on your team if there is free time to squeeze something in? :p
devout turtle
yeah that can be easily considered in a DM.
right now we have probably almost 10 artists with nothing to do
due to the ebb and flow of work etc
devout turtle
yeah, i can't go into operational details, but let's say their areas are completed.
i guess people wanting to make a CDLC should consider keeping it small.
as once you go for something larger, all kinds of complications set in.
a big barrier is supershader workflow, as most artists can't really understand it
hopefully all that will change in future.
for now, Arma remains a specialist area
muted narwhal
supershader isnβt anything out of ordinary tbh
and can be easily translated from substance painter directly with 99% accuracy if one uses specific shader
or at least spec gloss workflow (non pbr)
devout turtle
yeah once you have the workflow down, it's pretty straightforward, but people who come from unity or other PBR workflows often find it very confusing, even with documentation.
that's been our experience anyway. so we now split our freelancers team out and they deliver PBR, and technical artists then convert it.
so long as they know a few design basics to avoid/ watch out for, it generally works really well
muted narwhal
the only issue there is that you wonβt get a closer (is never 1:1) representation in sp viewport
which is ideal when you texturing
red saddle
I can add that recruiting from the arma community has been a breeze in comparison. Most people are very motivated, passionate and loyal.
can see why BI and BISim prefer job applicants from the community, plus they already know parts of the workflow.
tepid lance
To avoid confusion the used abbreviation is "BISim", since "BIS" could be confused with BI's old name abbreviation of "Bohemia Interactive Studios", which since has been shortened to "Bohemia Interactive".
velvet hazel
Sounds like the freelance economy is crap and salaried, unionized labor would be better.
How you get that via the way cdlc works, no clue
devout turtle
not many parts of any modern economy where salaried unionized labour is a thing, but that's off-topic hehe.
devout turtle
The first company i set up in 97 was a workers co-op. Im all for empowering people
velvet hazel
nearly 20% of German labour in unionized. 70% of Swedish and Finnish labour is unionized, and those are trade unions, so not even counting co-ops (plus the babor laws in general are less exploitative). I bring it up because from a labour perspective the gaming industry is under a lot of pretty valid scrutiny. IMO it effects productivity and creativity. TMK the GM guys are basically a two-man business and the scope and quality of their project was easily up to the standard of BI stuff (not complaining about BI production value btw). Im not trying to say there is just one good way of going about things but Im always suspicious of the potential for freelance labor to either get abused by management, or alternatively fail to deliver because they have such a limited tie to the company hiring them
Co-ops rule, and there has to be inherent value placed by labor on whatever project since they co-own it.
I'll shut up now
I just want ethical cdlc
devout turtle
Speaking from experience - having established and managed cooperatives, industrial and provident societies, mutual membership networks, charities, companies limited by guarantee, by share and publicly listed companies, it is not the company model nor the employment status that causes people to be motivated. Regardless of any of that, any structure can work so long as people are valued and coached and supported.
When i was young and naive i believed that a democratic structure was critical. A lifetime on the board of 10 social enterprises has taught me that leading fairly and responsibly and walking the talk is far preferred by people to any kind of equality of responsibility
Not everyone wants to go to work and be responsible for managing the company
In fact when you offer employee ownership and participation most people turn it down
If you want to deliver a cdlc its a hell of a lot of work, and prone to many bumps in the road. The last thing you might want is decision making shared equally with new people who dont know each other that well and all have different expectations, responsibilities and desires. I set up this cdlc model with 1 leader who can hire and fire, and who has to carry a lot of responsibility, but in turn i am carried and supported by a core of about 30-40 trusted experienced enthusiastic people.
I listen to them and we sometimes have quite heated exchanges
Some sub teams pretty much manage themselves
Some teams need a firmer guiding hand
It ebbs and flows as people come and go
One thing you cannot guarantee is that people who start or join the team will want to be in it at the end
Its a good reason not to have a model where say 10 of you start a cdlc and split the income 10 ways
What if one leaves or wants to leave? What if a new guy joins? How do you make a quorate decision? Unanimous? Majority? Elected role?
How to manage disproportionate / asymmetric commitments and workloads?
What if one guy never finishes his tasks and another guy always has to step in? Will they be paid equally? Will one come to resent the other?
Thereβs a lot to consider when forming a new venture. Our model allows maximum flexibility and shared risk and reward that is proportional to each persons measured, transparent commitment
We have only one leader but decisions are taken by others every day
We are effective because we are not hampered by mechanisms of bureaucracy.
Ive worked within many of the ethical structures and even taught and coached other social enterprises and co-ops
Im very passionate about ethical business practice, transparent accounting and equal rights
hazy pumice
I mean, that's good and looking forward to the CDLC but that is just how any well-run company works...
devout turtle
But beware if youre new to business, seemingly ethical models can also be your downfall
As they can distract you from your purpose and sap everyones will through role confusion and frustratngly slow consensus building
Thats coming from the heart lol a lot of my friends have worked in co-ops and struggled with weird power holders, socially different ( unbalanced) people who hoard power or play games
It can destroy passion
Having said that none of us would ever want to work for EA
Watching some of those youtube docs about games devs is fascinating
lean sail
BI and Codemasters anyone?
devout turtle
Then make them redundant, so they form a new creative company and make call of duty
The power to create something really cool is what drives every one of our team
hazy pumice
LOL... Bohemia rates much worse on overall, satisfaction and approve of CEO than EA on glassdoor... I personally wouldn't want to work for EA... but their employees seem to want to
devout turtle
So long as they have the freedom to create and are supported and disputes professionally and swiftly handled, most creators dont give a fig about the shareholding or board structure
They want to believe in their work and be inspired by the work of their peers
And be paid fairly and listened to
And that can be achieved with any company or partnership model off the shelf
My company model hasnt changed since the day i founded it with a standard ruleset. In previous companies we debated and developed the model over years. This focus instead on our game and story is much preferred
Everyone has to work out how they want to do this kind of thing. Thereβs many ways to go about it
Sorry to ramble on but i hope it may help some people considering forming a team and wondering what questions they should be considering
ebon sedge
Sorry to ramble on but i hope it may help some people considering forming a team and wondering what questions they should be considering
No need to apologize, its very interesting to hear some educated opinions on this
devout turtle
Right from day 1 we set ground rules for behaviour for example which mean people can work in a professional environment
velvet hazel
Totally, thats exactly what I wanted to read basically (responding in agreement with Pi123263). I do want to clear a few things up though. I wasn't advocating for total equality of leadership, even (to bring it back to military stuff) the Red Army at the height of collective military leadership in 1919 still deferred to officers during action. Anyone would recognize that a form of management is needed. Moreover a union doesn't necessarily relate directly to management style.
devout turtle
Coming from a mod team you dont always have that kind of culture inherent in everyone who volunteers
velvet hazel
and yeah I completely agree that not even everyone would even want to manage. It just isn't everyone's thing and it carries responsibility
Thats the interesting bit about the CDLC to me, because it's a different model than just "paid mods" it's an actual private professional structure
devout turtle
Yeah it really is a great opportunity
I would readily offer anyone considering making one some basic advice about their structure.
It all depends on the people and their backgrounds
Any music band has the exact same issues when they first get signed
Because all of a sudden their dreams come true but they now find they are no longer part of a free spirited journey into the creative unknown and instead they are struggling with cashflow, income projections, equality issues, role and responsibility issues, fairness, delegation, management and business
It can be a serious drag to people
Who just want to create
When you start a cdlc youre thinking about making a cool game. If you can get a lot of the traditional energy sapping processes out of the way early on you can get on with making one
Any reasonable sized cdlc is also creating a fairly valuable cache of intellectual property
How that will be handled is well worth considering
For example if someone joins and develops a weapon with your team and your sound guy synchs up the sound and the rtm guy does the character anim and your rigger animates it and another encoder equips units with it and sets up the recoils and ai profiles and another artist makes matching accessories for it...
The company has invested a lot in that art
So it cant remain the property of the artist
It has to be transferred to the company at the stage it is committed to the file repo
velvet hazel
yuppppppp thats a really interesting point
devout turtle
Because from this point on the company is spending a lot of money on it
You need people who are prepared to work on those terms and trust their IP will be protected by the common vehicle (the company) in order for them to mutually benefit
There are many chances of misunderstandings happening because people come from different backgrounds
One rule we have is that you must at all times remain reasonable
Failure to remain reasonable can be grounds for losing rights to profit share
This keeps everything fairly coolheaded
We also agreed a term that if someone wilfully tries to cause harm to the company then the legal costs to deal with them can be met from their expected income
Its a bit of a sting that, but it hopefully helps remind people that weβre in it for mutual benefit
Everyone is risking losing time and money making a cdlc. It can be gruelling work, and tempers can fray. People can get over emotional, and stop seeing sense, so strong mechanisms are needed to secure the work and the team in its endeavour
People dont always get on every day, but its not like a mod where you might just quit, this is contracted work
devout turtle
Anyway theres a lot to think about and a lot to manage and its never ending. So a lot of people would not want to take the step to becoming a professional developer
Or might try it and find its not for them
ebon sedge
or not have any relevant skills
velvet hazel
How do you determine "hurting the company," who determines that, sounds like it could easily be used against anyone trying to improve the workplace or organize.
hazy pumice
Seems like this should go to PM now? Sort of off-topic at this point...
velvet hazel
I have one last legit question
Was a CDLC project close to being revealed during the GM release phase and did something change internally?
Maybe I was reading too much into things, but it felt like we were going to hear more about other CDLC projects around then
sinful cape
everything runs on set schedules. if something happens that causes a delay, you move into the next schedule window
devout turtle
Reasonable is determined by the company and ultimately by a UK court. The company must follow a line to honour what is reasonable in order for its decisions to be upheld in court ordered mediation or eventually a case
Likewise for damage
Having a fair contract and a fair management is important in any company. If management listens to the team thereβs no need for unions. Unions work best when there is a definite cultural difference between many workers and few management like in government or automotive or service industries. When you have a commonwealth ( contract that shares profit and income) everyone technically has a stake in success and so theres no division of management and workforce in terms of their goals. My parents were both union shop stewards and i was raised a socialist, but its not always a good thing to have an us and them mentality
?
ebon sedge
CDLC are dlc that are outsourced to community creators which then in return also get a split of the money and support from BI in the creation of the CDLC
CDLC =/= mods
ebon sedge
You can ask in #general_chat_arma or #arma3_questions
wraith sleet
ok ty :)
ebon sedge
btw remember to delete the question itself here as to not break the crossposting rule @wraith sleet
wraith sleet
π
devout turtle
15-18 hour days 6-7 days a week working on arma for 2 years... about to login with breakfast and work til past midnight... another day in the salt mine... why do i still love this game so much??
Our amazing team has kept pace with me the whole way
I still love just loading up the game to play it
Thank god my wife is happy with the arrangement
lean sail
Thank god my wife is happy with the arrangement
Didn't knew there were female units in Arma 3 π€£π€£π€£
But we are also happy with the arrangement and can't wait for the result! π
devout turtle
I buy her chocolate
The highlight of her week... mine is to go to the pub on a friday usually after logging 80 hours at my desk in the week... the first beer is like a special gift each week... i imagine the other cdlc leaders can empathise... you become consumed...
As i enjoy my one outing of the week ( i literally am at my desk or in bed the rest of the time) i think about what it will be like when this is over
Like some prisoner breaking rocks on devils island
And staring out to sea thinking one day iβll be free...
Thank god for spotify
sinful cape
80 hours sounds unhealthy
devout turtle
It sure is. Thankfully it wonβt be forever
sinful cape
he said and then it went on forever π
spare otter
80 hours sounds unhealthy
Sounds like game dev in general
Part of the problem of being passionate about your work
devout turtle
and working from home
novel isle
15-18 hour days 6-7 days a week working on arma for 2 years... about to login with breakfast and work til past midnight... another day in the salt mine... why do i still love this game so much??
Our amazing team has kept pace with me the whole way
Thank god my wife is happy with the arrangement
@devout turtle
Same here mate .. 4-5 hours for sleep is max π
More than 19 years in business and still love it π
devout turtle
yeah, Arma is just such an amazing, always changing experience. no other games come close.
devout turtle
Rob (Eggbeast)Yesterday at 07:46 about to login with breakfast and work til past midnight... another day in the salt mine...
logging out now...
17h day
wraith sleet
Dosnt get boring after awhile?
hallow parrot
Modding is a fountain, which will never dry up
glad osprey
Can't wait to see the fruits of your labor @devout turtle
devout turtle
Starting again now after 7h rack time. Another day another dollar... oh wait... no dollar? Damn
Our whole team is really champing at the bit to reveal those fruits. But all in good time
I like to talk to you guys about the non-secret areas of cdlc production, so you might get an insight into the process and the hard work the team does
That monologue i posted before about artists recruitment and performance is a very common experience
Was good to receive dm feedback on that so i know its not just me doing something wrong
After release i plan to update my youtube modding tutorials with much improved workflows and insights
Ive been taught by so many great people in the past 2 years and the knowledge will be really useful to the community
So many mistakes in my old movies but still there arent that many decent ones available
dark tangle
honestly im afraid to get into modding bc it will make me not like the game after a while :/
knotty ore
it is a journey to make new things really. Not that much about the game but more about challenging yourself.
sinful cape
I just like to make stuff
channeling creativity and such
if I cant do that, I go mad
still. I dont think it is good to spend 80% of the day on this. it'll burn you out at some point and you just become unproductive.
knotty ore
Robs current experience is not really a normal situation. π
dark tangle
it is a journey to make new things really. Not that much about the game but more about challenging yourself.
@knotty ore yeah i guess i had a toxic mindset back when I did modding for another gme
I used to compare to others too much and felt bad
but as you said it should be about challenging myself
knotty ore
for me at least it is like that.
devout turtle
oh believe me, i'm a 90% guy.
i get an idea and run with it and make something that mostly works
I need other guys to carry it to the conclusion
look at my previous mods and you'll see it everywhere, crazy innovations that work in most situations, but without artists to help, or programmers, or sound engineers, or better encoders than me, they'll never be as good as they should be
i've always followed the mantra "progress not perfection"
every day... aim for progress
don't get paralysed by a need for perfection
sinful cape
I like quality instead of quantity. finish something good, not lots of thing mediocre
this is why I rarely release stuff
devout turtle
that's what all of our team suffers from to differing degrees, a mixture of impostor syndrome and perfectionism, an inner voice nagging for better.
learning to use that voice to produce and improve rather than to become paralysed, is a key stage in modding or professional production
dark tangle
every day... aim for progress
@devout turtle yeah
one programming youtuber once told me that if I am making something for myself - i should first focus on making it work the way I can
and not caring about perfection
and that only comes after
devout turtle
so i spent half my time coaching over 50 super talented creators to get the best out of them, while making sure they deliver and don't get all tied up in knots
because
in game design
you need to play it to be able to see what direction it is going in
so if you dont have something you can play with, you have nothing
to this end, we (and many other game design studios) use a prototype, alpha, beta workflow
you build your prototype and even without textures you animate it and config it and apply all your ideas to it in game
then you make youralpha - finished game-ready low poly model with all textures, fire geo and shadow
sinful cape
sure. first thing you always do is make the idea work.
devout turtle
from there you can encode all the remaining service lods, and later at beta the distance lods
sinful cape
same with campaign, etc. first step is to make it possible to play through... even without actual missions, etc
devout turtle
yes, this is normal healthy production. it seems flawed and buggy to everyone else but you "tolerate it" as you understand where it is going to be in the end vision
so perfectionist mind-sets do not work well in game design on a broader level (i.e. a whole team producing many moving parts in parallel)
however you do need to nail down certain rules (naming convention, config tab spacing convention, upper, camel and lower case conventions)
vivid lynx
do the brackets go on the same line or not? π
devout turtle
yeah exactly!
prisma mountain
Depends if you use Notepad++ or not π
devout turtle
forus - we allow the programmers to use CamelCase and class xxx { and config/ encoders use lower case and class xxx [return] {
and it works!
a fair compromise for utility
setting down rules for PBR to supershader conversion was a tricky one, we cracked it in the end, with some expert help.
i now know more about the physics of light than i know about taxonomy (and i have a degree in evolutionary biology)
so it was a fun ride, learning all this stuff.
to answer "does it get boring?" well, yes, certainly. this is one of the biggest challenges to any team. to stay focussed and motivated, and sharing a vision.
ashen belfry
So, no one unified style guide?
devout turtle
i won't go into details, but the workflow broke down on a set of vehicles recently and as a result i have 2 sets of the same vehicles which need merging (sigh!) and these 7 vehicles have approx 10 lods, and in each lod an average of 50 selections, so 7 x 10 = 70 lods x 50 = 3500 selections and there are TWO copies so thats 7,000 selections i am having to audit and fix. all because i didnt monitor that particular sub-team closely and they didnt follow the prescrribed workflow.
im about halfway done
and it is excruciatingly mind-numbing
so easy to make a mistake a paste it into every lod
so staying focussed when its so thoroughly tedious is hard yes
prisma mountain
In regards to DPs inquiry.
I would definitely say it can get stale at times. repeating task repeated over and over, and growing pains are definitely heavy.
CDLC are a bit harder because it's a gamble, you don't know if your going to get paid and not everybody is in a position to afford dumping the hours needed to develop and grow. You can spend literally a month just learning a specific system, then forget it half way down the road because there is so much ground to cover.
I definitely been on plenty of sprints, were I'll crank out something in a year, then never want to pick up another mod project again for 2. Just depends when you get hit by the inspiration, and can keep your long term goal in sight.
devout turtle
i have much more enjoyable work i should be doing but i have to bail the team out of this hole they got themselves into
the old saying " how do you eat an elephant" comes to mind ... "one bite at a time"
muted narwhal
why did you even use pbr workflow (actually thereβs 2x pbr ways) instead of using non prb?
devout turtle
welcome to the real unsexy uncool world of development
muted narwhal
since i assume content is custom made
devout turtle
we used it because we are creating an asset base for use in future, and which our freelance artists are comfortable with
the conversion is pretty simple now we have a trained core of about 10 technical artists who can make the adjustments
muted narwhal
while i get that, you can very well translate both ways, at least in most modern tools
devout turtle
before that it was chaos
muted narwhal
is it automated process or manual?
devout turtle
but in the end our "hoard of IP" will be useable in all engines
it has to be manual
muted narwhal
fair enough, i prefer PBR just because it is engine agnostic
devout turtle
but the key we found was in understanding the flaws in the supershader itself
and what happens when you do certain things and other things change. like whack-a-mole
once we understood it fully it is now a fairly straightforward process
muted narwhal
but i can achieve PBR textures (spec/gloss or metalalness) easily and automated
from non prb diffuse + spec gloss
devout turtle
oh i see what you mean
yeah we plan to assemble a materials library for our next project, based on this one
we didnt do that this time but we have secured the rights to every artists materials
muted narwhal
my question was actually about automation of the texture translation to use with RV engine super shaders
from whatever PBR textures output the software provides
i guess itβs still manual work
devout turtle
it hasn't been necessary up to now, with a small number of artists working on vehicles or weapons you can afford to do things via the persons workflow
yeah you can either use the SP plugin and export in SS, or export PBR and fiddle endlessly.
muted narwhal
yes, but considering any larger team that has artists that are already used to PBR and make use of assets and smarts mats that they already have
devout turtle
yeah thats why we use PBR as a baseline, to not put off those artists wit ha steep learning curve
muted narwhal
setting up an automated processor of translation would have been something i had an interest in
muted narwhal
having the sp is a pluss
devout turtle
but given where Arma is heading, it 's not worth the investment
muted narwhal
but there are times when you donβt get to have the source tex file
considering you have been doing this for the last 2 years
i though you set this auto process
devout turtle
yeah with spp we can then have a small crew of technical artists who are very familiar with the workflow doing the conversion
muted narwhal
yes, long term is not needed since enfusion is pbr
wraith sleet
Whenever I think i know anything about the game i just have to read a convo between blue people and realize i know nothing πΆ
muted narwhal
fair enough
devout turtle
DP27 - pufu manages the biggest most successful mod in arma, and i manage the biggest cdlc team, so we have a vast experience that many modders can only see a small slice of in their work
muted narwhal
again, for the rest of a3 lifespan, at least for me, having such an automated system would have simplified and unified a certain part of workflow, without blocking someone else to do that manually
devout turtle
this isnt "because we're cool" it's just the nature of our jobs
muted narwhal
for me at least, fortunately, this isnβt a job :))
wraith sleet
Idk man the cdlcs and RHS are pretty cool π
But yeah I understand what your saying(in terms of work ethic)
devout turtle
i love automation pufu, you should see my macros. even had mikero recently saying "who wrote those macros? they are so well written" and i dont have any kind of programming education except for a gcse in computer studies. was a genuine highlight to get such praise. but in terms of automating the art, with supershader fundamentally flawed, im not so sure its even possible. it needs an artist to decide how much light will reflect and which parts of the object are the most metal
muted narwhal
not really
devout turtle
well i dont think even bohemia has any way to automate this
muted narwhal
supershader is flawd in the sense you have too many controls outside the textures in terms of how things are lit
mainly over spec/gloss
devout turtle
our team has looked at it with some very experienced professionals and we don't see any way to automate it.
muted narwhal
yeah, sorry i donβt really agree here
devout turtle
unlike PBR it also allows the unwary to break the laws of physics, and have more light reflected than is there in the environment
and this factor fundamentally means that you cant adjust one slider without breaking another
imho
so it is always a compromise
muted narwhal
yes, but you can keep the values of all supershader rvmats the same
sure, once you change the values the automated process would fail
but otherwise itβs more than possible
devout turtle
the important process we learned was to nail down your shiniest part, and set this up in your rvmat, then work backwards from there using smdi to achieve the non-metallic
this yields chrome or bared polished steel AND matt cloth or wood in the same texture/ material
prisma mountain
I'm guessing your adding the complexity for universal benefit of the assets?
devout turtle
in many arma imports you see people wrestle with the same issues over an over
muted narwhal
PBR can be achieved in a non metalness way just as well
devout turtle
many PBR artists wework with dont really understandmetal/ non-metal too. it's crazy
muted narwhal
metalness is easier to comprehend for the average artist, but prb spec/gloss yields a bit more fine control
devout turtle
they turn in work and you look at their settings and theyve no idea about fresnel curves at all
muted narwhal
anyways, at least sp translates between the 2 with 100% accuracy
devout turtle
understanding first the physics of light allows you to appreciate the object in a real world way, and then apply your tools to it
yeah because it doesnt have the flaw inherent in SS
there are connections between elements of the RVMAT that break light physics
muted narwhal
in any case, cheers for the reply, just wondering how you have set translation, i got the answer i was looking for
devout turtle
and once you know these you can work easily in SS and not make the classic mistakes
muted narwhal
again, you can have a base rvmat for all things and get the translator /automation that way done
devout turtle
if we had time we'd have documented this by now for our own extended art team, but we havent which i knowsounds crazy
and once we have it documented we'll post it and share it for the benefit of the community
muted narwhal
changing any of the rvmat values bar the texture paths would most likely break it
devout turtle
we're not deliberately holding back anything
just no time to do the documentation in our endless sprint
muted narwhal
ahh yeah, no worries, these sort of docs would most likely help out the newcomers more than people who have been doing this for the last 15+ years
devout turtle
yeah we generally dont touch the top of the rvmat except the specular/ power, as the ambient/ diffuse break your terrain lighting effects
forceddiffuse is only useable for reflectors as far as we can tell
muted narwhal
well aware of how ss works and its limita and flaws
anyways, iβm off have a good one
devout turtle
so we set up our object with a blank smdi and fix the specualr/ power and fresnel to match the metalness
then we use the smdi to achieve the non metal
ok just adding this in case anyone was wondering what we were talking about
word to the unwary - don't change stuff at random in rvmats
its an illogical nightmare
muted narwhal
you donβt need to change the values, you need to change the textures
and doing both textures and values in the rvmat is bound to fail more than anything
devout turtle
are you saying you dont ever need to adjust specular/ specularpower or fresnel values?
if so, i'd be interested to share a call sometime to see how our different approaches both work. because RHS certainly is top shelf product, and i believe our cdlc is also, but we have very different workflows it seems.
we set up our metalness in the rvmat values
muted narwhal
i am saying that for setting and automated translator from PBR, both specular and spec power values would need to be locked
devout turtle
unfortunately i cannot share any images of the results here, but i can privately as you signed our NDA
ah ok i guess this is because we don't automate it.
we use a human eye and brain to manage the light levels
and the materials
muted narwhal
fresnel values as well, for most cases anyways. the n/k workflow is more acurate to real life in general than ior approach (used by most offline and real time pro engines out there)
issue being these values are there to compensate texture info, but could be avoided for 99% of the cases
anyways, the supershader downside is precisely the fact that you have way to many points of control outside textures
i guess thatβs legacy thing and it is needed for when you have procedural colors
for instance
devout turtle
agreed. many people wont know that the fresnel values in rvmat are actually severely affected by specular or specularpower (sorry i forget which)
if you adjust one it moves the fresnel curve up and down the axis
this is one of the many flaws SS has
compared to PBR
muted narwhal
devout turtle
so if you didnt understand exactlywhat was happening you'd get really confused results by adjusting those values
and there are certain things like putting black in your green channel of smdi which as a 0 causes a spike in the specular
muted narwhal
IOR (index of reflection) is easier to understand than nk
devout turtle
because SS has a natural curve down until it reaches 1 on the x axis where it is at 0 on y, and below 1 it is fixed at 1
so you get a jump and your specular is all blown out and things have a strange white halo on them
idont have my notes to hand, and im not an artist
tepid lance
Some minor improvment near these limits can be done by manually adjusting the texconvert rules and impacting how the final .paa is compressed for _smdi filters.
devout turtle
dxt compression is another issue yeah
tepid lance
Naturally this comes at the cost of more data, though.
devout turtle
designing your model and textures to avoid dxt glitches is another whole can of worms
im not the guy who does this work, so i dont have all the right terms, but i do understand the areas of priority and at which stage to tackle them
for example leaving buffer zones in high contrast areas
so you dont get nasty pixellation
we have in the end set up a core small team of technical artists to manage this stuff, and they advise and support a bigger team of PBR artists
which mirrors the way BI and BISim works afaik
we're all still learning, it's a long road. i'll be glad when we can use PBR
damn i managed to have fun for 40 mins. gotta go back to fixing those damn 7000 selections now π¦
workflow is king
because when you dont follow it, anarchy rules
tepid lance
Automate it!
sinful cape
ctrl+del and all the problems go away
devout turtle
i mean workflow like proto, alpha, beta. that isn't possible to automate
however, proper checks and acceptance criteria would go a long way to solving the issues we've struggled with
sadly not enough hours in the day to monitor everything
as we evolve, we're adding a layer of proficient technical managers
currently character, weapon, building, sound, music and terrain is well covered
vehicles is all on me, and i struggle to find the hours to monitor every one
leading to my own punishment dealing with fubar tasks
good vehicle encoders who can also manage design stages are sadly few and far between
you can probably count the people in the arma community on two hands who can do that
and almost all of them are likely into their own CDLCs, or too maxed in their day jobs to do more than hobby stuff
we have a genuine skill shortage in the community
needs a course and a college certificate lol
i think certain skill gaps are a critical issue for the CDLC program as a whole
in my former profession i designed and managed programs of business support to bridge skill gaps.
for CDLC to evolve it could benefit from a small team of paid individuals from the community to produce training content and coach capacity building
i would happily contribute to that, but i imagine it might be a tough sell to bohemia, or any game publisher.
anyway damn it i'd better gat back to my vehicle - sob
prisma mountain
I don't think it's really just the lack of skill, more that everybody has their own idea of what should be a CDLC or what they enjoy.
Like I seen the big discussion about the finer details of supershaders, but it's like. What are you looking for? A career artist with a 5 year portfolio? Or some one who just matches the vanilla shading and imports good looking models just to A3?
devout turtle
the latter is preferred
we've had no luck even working with people who worked on call of duty
however, a lot of modders tend to be a bit crap at following directions, as they see it as a hobby and not a job, so what we look for is modders who aspire to work i nthe industry
because those guys can be taught
and they appreciate and learn the workflow and really contribute
prisma mountain
I can agree with that, but I also think a rigid pipeline is tough for modders, even the ones that could go pro.
devout turtle
it's necessary
prisma mountain
One week, I might just work on crunching bugs, fixing config errors, adding in features that were missing entries, ect. Mainly because it's a much simpler task for me that I can do in shorter time.
The next week when I got free time, I'll actually do model work.
devout turtle
you cant hope to deliver an aircraft or a truck that will be accepted in less than a year if youre a modder with no workflow
prisma mountain
I mean there is always a workflow if it's foward progress each day.
devout turtle
youre adopting a bit of a soloist point of view here
we split our assets into 2 man teams (artist and encoder)
so the encoder must help the artist to design the asset at the prototyping stage
prisma mountain
Too some degree, I guess my point is I tend to shrink or increase my workload based on reallife. As I work a full time job dealing with data.
devout turtle
and they work out together how it will be animated, and what features and functions it will have
and once they begin work, they meet every week to check in on progress, and see what each ofthem can do to push the assets forward i nthe coming week
with main goals being prototype in game, or alpha or beta, or gold
once they have a working alpha, we can adopt it into cutscenes, AI systems, missions, test its weaponry, sounds, fine tune physx etc
prisma mountain
That is why you don't just want a decoration person, a vehicle person, ect.
You want to say hey group A.
You got a option of a crate, tank, and tree to make. Try to get them all done by X date. Work on small stuff if your timescale is smaller for each week.
devout turtle
some of our core team do both encoding and art
some people have literally several hundred assets in their tasklist
and part of my job is helping them to manage that enormous roster
prisma mountain
Well yea, you get those hardcore people. I'm just sorta giving you a prospective of some one who deals with the same stuff with a data team that no one has degrees in data.
devout turtle
so the ycan prioritise their efforts to harmonise with team needs
other guys might make one vehicle over 6 months
prisma mountain
If I have a member who has less time for the week, they shelve the bigger project (The tank) and work on smaller ones.
devout turtle
the ones who turn up to meetings with encoder learn fast how helpful that is
the ones who dont and try to deliver their asset without talking to anyone - even ignoring please, requests and demands to meet, well, they ALWAYS 100% of the time fuck it up and either quit in a rage or get fired
prisma mountain
Do you have documentation and SOPs for them to orient themselves?
devout turtle
they dont keep an eye on the spec, or keep it up to date, they finish up not designing the asset to have the variations or the clutter animations built on
yeah
we have plenty of documentation
i usually point out page 1 of document 1 to these people repeatedly
and they still fuck up
because at heart they do not want to be in a team
they want to work solo
and that is fine, but not in our team
it costs us an enormous sum of time/ money to deal with their aftermath after they are removed.
im really not open to working with anyone now who isnt a can-do professional, optimistic and deferential in terms of deferring to the teams knowledge and workflow/ processes
anyone who thinks he knows better is fired within a week of starting
so now i just hit people with that statement before they sign the contract
saves us both a lot of time
prisma mountain
I honestly couldn't judge unless I seen your documentation and SOPs. Basically if I have to waste 80% my mod time figuring out a teams thought process, then it's not worth it to me.
devout turtle
having that point of view immediately makes you not recruitable lol
anyone who puts themselves first and the team second is not wanted
we have 120 people now and they pretty much all subscribe to this point of view
prisma mountain
It's not my way or the highway, it's more like....If you can't explain your process clearly enough to assure that I'm on the same page with proper Documentation and SOPs. then no
devout turtle
so we wouldnt allow anyone in now who wasn't also a lioness/ wolf looking for a pack to hunt with.
we've had our fair share of mane-groomers
everyone gets a fair trial
prisma mountain
I also seen teams like that though. Who have their way, and culture.
devout turtle
and a lot dont cut the mustard
prisma mountain
But then ZERO way to enter that culture besides 'figure it out, do as your told'
devout turtle
if i give a guy a contract, im signing my name on his document, that means i will stand by him so long as he stands by me. some of our guys i have coached, nursed, called ambulances for, helped through COVID infections, helped get over break ups, medical crises, so many family bereavements, pets dying, loss of jobs and homes...
i do that, and i teach them and they teach me
and we create cool shit together
and there is no drama
they respect the workflow, the team and value the experience
and we love to have them
some of them have plans now to go full time with us as soon as we start earning
im hoping to open an office in one of the guys countries, and have him manage it
prisma mountain
It sounds honestly like a military set up more then a corporate environment.
devout turtle
its a team
team first, abov eall else
above money
above you or me
above any role or goal
above any knowledge or status
if you cant shower with the guys, carry them or have them carry you, get shitty and bloody together, and laugh in a blizzard ofshit, you can fuck off basically
not you, i mean whoever
prisma mountain
Yea, I call that a military environment. It's not a bad set up, but I can see why you might not have a lot of people work out for you.
devout turtle
the guys who show up and say they will only work on art objects they choose, they can feck off
the ones who quibble about contract terms or money can also feck off
the ones who want to show off their prowess and lord it over others, can royally feck off
the ones who like the idea of the opportunity, then find out about the project from me in a personal 1-2 hour call, they then sign the contract in a heartbeat and get to work, they help with the documentation, they coach other team members, they apologise when they are absent or unable to meet a goal or if they make a mistake, they own it, they take responsibility, and they help everyone because they know that we stand or fall together... those are the people we surround ourselves with
the rest can feck off lol
our motto comes from a very special military adviser we have "Team... or feck off"
it is a military mindset that works best in this kind of team, but most of us are civvies and many of us go back 10 or more years.
the new ones are pretty amazing, jumping into a large busy team and running with the herd
so we do lose a lot of people. i will give most people a shot
but once they start fannying about or whingeing, if it's not something they can fix, or if they ignore advice repeatedly... well they get to feck off.
the value of the opportunity is great enough for everyone in our team
it doesnt matter about anything else
and anyone who cant see that lacks the heart to be part of the team
prisma mountain
It's a great system for sure, but it's a very rigid system.
devout turtle
yeah if you let in fannies and selfish people pretty soon you have a toxic corporation like most companies. with entrenched viewpoints, snipers, bullies and career time-wasters
prisma mountain
I wouldn't call everybody selfish and fannies. Like the other way of thinking. Is what are we doing that is driving people away?
Is it strictly just them failing, or something in your orientation that causes it? ect
devout turtle
it's positive pressure
prisma mountain
It's not a negative light, just seeing it at all angles.
devout turtle
like in a clean room, you maintain the room at higher pressure than outside,so microbes get pushed out
prisma mountain
But with if that happens within?
devout turtle
our culture is "Team or feck off"
and that will either appeal or appal
its a quick, efficient way of getting rid of the people who wont stick it
we've had some people who dont have the skills and ive kept them on and let them make a few props
so it's not about you being the perfect delivering artist or programmer
its about your attitude
do you contribute? do you engage? do we benefit from having you around?
ive built all my companies like this over the years
prisma mountain
But the question is do you listen? If you hire some one with 10x more experience then most your team. You going to listen to them if they point out some inherit design issues? Or listen to the seniors because that is the hierarchy is?
devout turtle
i learned it when i was young, in the navy and then the marines reserves. it helped me build some pretty outstanding teams in my career
who said anything about hierarchy?
prisma mountain
It gets established in a military style system.
Rather officially or unofficially.
devout turtle
above any knowledge or status
team team team
the only status you have in my company is being a team player, or not being in the company
there is no hierarchy
i make decisions on hiring or firing
but i ask people for their opinion on people
and i give people plenty of room to succeed or fail
prisma mountain
Working in both styles of structure at some, I would disagree. Radical changes/ideas from outside experience tend to get rubbed on personal attacks on the team because they are 'new'. Rather officially established or not.
devout turtle
when you think military = hierarchy thats the conventional military, the one who needs a lot of supplies and logistics, and bases and meetings and powerpoint
prisma mountain
When I say military style, I mean military ethos applied to a corp environment. I worked in it before and it can work in very small teams, and a rigid format. Just a bit more restrictive in growth vs a more open style system.
devout turtle
the military team ethic im talking about is the rule breakers, the anarchists, the crazy motherfeckers, the guys who can hold their own in a fight, who can back up their mates and cover their shift without drama or problems
people hit me up with suggestions every hour of every day. i seldom say no. but sometimes im like "no" and thats that
people need strong decision making
prisma mountain
Like I said I don't think it's bad. It's just bit more rigid.
devout turtle
notrigid, not tyrranical
having one ultimate decision maker is the most free you can be
imagine if we had committees?
if you trust a guy to play the role of leader, and he listens to you and helps you and learns from you... and he makes final decisions on things when they get stuck or need rapid progress... then this is truly flexible, and agile
if i stop listening to my team, they will abandon me
so i never take them for granted
this might be a thing to consider when setting up a new CDLC,
do you form a co-operative with a commitete to decide on things?
the first company i incorporated was a worker co-op
i went on to direct a network of co-ops, and an industrial and provident society (IPS) and later a handful of charities, some with committees and leaders of councils chairing them
i also set up a PLC inside a 1200 man law firm working personally with the 4 owners of the company - a pure oligarchy
i also worked with Earth first! for quite a number of years, an anarchist collective, so along with being an officer in the military ive tried just about every style of management and leadership
and the main thing ive learned is "avoid bloat"
avoid accumulating people who dont want to be here
and get rid of anyone who is selfish
if people channel power they get from others or the status of a role, for the greater good, then this is effective use of it
if they wield power for some end, then they show their selfish side, and yo ucan safely eject them onto the sidewalk
for me, being able to learn and fit into a team is 1000% more important than knowing how to model or encode.
obviously you need talented people to drive the art and the programming core
but for the many other roles, you can take someone in and coach them up to be a producer or a community manager or a QA tester or one of many other roles
3am, another 17 hour day done... fun times he
sinful cape
committees are rarely working
listening to people is what you have to do, but at the end of the day one person must decide
devout turtle
Im all for experienced leaders holding the reins, they serve the team like anyone else
Even in a workers co-op the workers elect the directors to take the decisions for them. Collectives are best applied when you have no need of coordinated decision making but everyone has a really strong common goal like saving the planet
One thing i learned years ago was how to be led. And allowing a leader to lead. Its an important teamwork skill. So in some areas i lead and in others i serve others who lead
Keeping a team together over a gruelling long haul development requires a shared vision and a flexible set of rules for day to day working but some absolutely rigid minimum criteria like teamwork, respect, duty, professionalism etc
ashen belfry
Morning everyone, can we keep the profanity to an absolute minimum please.
sinful cape
there was profanity?
fringe quartz
Search for few particular four letter words and you'll find it.
sinful cape
nah, too lazy :)
muted narwhal
lol at the walls of text above
sinful cape
it's what happens if you work 80 hour weeks :ppp
devout turtle
sorry FM i went a bit mad there
will edit
done
apologies, was delirious after a stupidly long week auditing 8,000 selections manually
thankfully that bit of calamity is over now, and i can get back to the fun stuff.
rugged tulip
It's easy to get overworked sometimes for seemingly no rational reason, guys π I'd be careful about this, some of my friends have burnt out working on their startups and they've came across some "interesting" (to say the least) health issues. Having a complete day-off (no electronics around whatsoever) every week is the least you can do to your body, your bobby and your mind in the long-term, I think :))
devout turtle
it's an important risk for dlc teams to be sure
nimble hatch
It's easy to get overworked sometimes for seemingly no rational reason, guys π I'd be careful about this, some of my friends have burnt out working on their startups and they've came across some "interesting" (to say the least) health issues. Having a complete day-off (no electronics around whatsoever) every week is the least you can do to your body, your bobby and your mind in the long-term, I think :))
@rugged tulip Very true, as someone who is self employed, i was one who burnt out while on startup, worked every hour given, 14 hour days 7 days a week (Dont regret it, as it was temp), you literally are unable to socialise as you just rewired your brain to become hyperproductive, but, as crazy and as routine as systematic as it sounds, sleeping 8 hours tops, go to bed and get up early, training every other morning before work, eating well, finishing work by the evening, and giving yourself a sunday off completely to reset and restarting monday morning is the best thing for keeping productivity levels high, also using a todo list and keeping track of activities for that week to evaluate productivity, and whether/what day you burnt out is great, one mild burnout a week is manageable and can recover, but anything more is major and will stunt you for 2 days productivity levels will drop majorly, so anymore than one burnout and i revise the gameplan and go back at it
(and stay away from more than 1 coffee , releases cortisol (stress hormone) which can induce anxiety, higher than normal stress, hypertension), this alone will ruin your productivity output. Exercise releases endorphins, feel good hormones which will counter, and will increase red blood cell count, meaning more oxygen to brain so you mentally become more engaged, focus, and entertained, persae)
devout turtle
yeah i dont touch caffeine at all, and only drink alcohol at weekends when im testing (not true work)
in my previous career i was managing 5 companies in parallel working at partner level in a 1200 man law firm and managing and developing unsung mod when at home. when the landscape changed at work to massively increase my stress, and then a close family member became terminally ill, and then my cat too, that was it - chronic fatigue syndrome for 3 years... unable to work.
i recovered using a form of therapy designed to resolve PTSD, and it cured me in just 3 days, was amazing.
so now i can work again 80 hours a week with few side effects, except the odd tired ramble and getting a bit grumpy with people who don't pull their weight for the team.
but i agree resting is important
i'll do it when im dead lol
no, i do take rest
and i make sure team members dont follow my example
they have to-do lists
nimble hatch
@devout turtle I feel you on that Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and PTSD, i experienced those, absolutely horrible, i figured mine out by learning about psychology and doing creative art to ease my mind, lol
devout turtle
and generous deadlines
it's just so intense, when you get all your pipelines coming together in one big sprint
nothing you can do about it but suck it up and soldier on
one good technique i use is to fill myself with joy, as i take a walk, and reflect on being exactly where i want to be in life. and avoiding onlinearguments, making fast decisions, minimising points of contention
nimble hatch
@devout turtle oh yeah no doubt on your last, macromanagement and an effective team means we have to work harder to keep on top and on track for the team lol, but also try to be conscious of how they might be feeling, from personal experience, high morale has been amazing in teamwork productivity and social interactions
devout turtle
being generous with people, but firm on the terms, helps manage a big busy project
thankfully we don't have factions or politics or bullies or problems. if someone can't work with the team they are asked to leave.
no hard feelings, no regrets, just move on separately.
nimble hatch
there is a saying a friend of mine has, she says something along the lines 'Give someone enough rope to hang themself', i like this, as, you can control them, but you cant micromanage them, so there must be an element of trust, like u say in work ethic and meeting team deadliens
devout turtle
some things need micro-management, it's not an evil thing in itself
i use charles handys donut model of management
nimble hatch
(going to need to pull that up) i dont knw that one lol
devout turtle
been using it for 25 years
everyone has a different sized doughnut, according to their role, experience, mission-criticality, motivation, track record etc
its using a ring doughnut
the centre (hole) is the stuff you must do, the doughnut ring is the stuff you are allowed to do, the outside of the ring is the wall you cannot pass
a micromanagement only approach would only use the "hole"
and a laissez-faire collective approach (like a lot of mods) would have a massive un-ending doughnut ring
setting limits on each area was handys idea
and allowing each person a different shape according to their personal / organisational fit
i use this to coach ambitious people to have ever bigger responsibilities and freedoms
and to focus chaotic creatives on the areas they must and must not do
it's really simple but it takes a lot of time investment to get to know each person well
nimble hatch
this is an excellent read indeed, before i give my 2pence on the theory (which is very good), BIS have done very well to capitalise on their CDLC program, its like grabbing that unending doughnut, cutting some pieces and moulding the rest into shape
devout turtle
it also works for almost all personality types
well the doughnut would also apply to a whole organisation like a cdlc project yes
all the teams involved will fear that their area of creative freedom (the ring) may be constrained by bohemias strict requirements
but you also have to see bohemias POV, and work within their limits, because as publishers standing alongside the big game companies, they are putting their brand on your creation.
as modders we all push boundaries
that's what modding is
so culturally, you need to rein in that aspect of the organisation to deliver a solid quality CDLC
and as modders you can always put all your additional cool features into an "official mod" on steam workshop
so people wanting flying wingsuits and women soldiers and attack dogs and vtol ships have to remember that that stuff is always gonna be mod-side and not dlc
I was laughing with Yax yesterday about this, how much we push this engine to do things it wasn't designed to do.
there is compromise in everything
nimble hatch
Yeah, unless there is a feasible business model and financial return, or a big capital driver and effective project turnover
devout turtle
so trying to push a feature through QA, it needs to be robust and sensible in all aspects, and that takes a lot of feedback cycles per asset/ feature
GM added some really cool stuff
and probably had a lot of cool stuff denied
nimble hatch
Oh yeah, BIS and it's community most especially should give themselves props as they pushing the envelope, it's having a ripple effect on the video gaming industry
nimble hatch
Oh, yeah, no doubt
devout turtle
we have to take it wit ha sense of humour
and not feel bad towards bohemia
they are doing their jobs, and we, ours
and there will always be tension in that relationship
nimble hatch
Yeah I think it's easy to get salty at BIS lol
devout turtle
it's only natural between a mod team and a publisher
nimble hatch
True, true
devout turtle
and there are many ways around the blockers
the team just has to be ready for the feedback
nimble hatch
It's crazy though because this level of communication,devolution, ways of thinking are so revolutionary it's amazing and quite mind blowing
devout turtle
so as project director i counsel every artist and encoder and programmer and terrain artist on what is possible, what could pass QA, what will need more work, what may be needing to be excised into a steam mod. it sets up a culture of consideration at each stage of design
and sets expectations
this is an important consideration for any team
we all have massive wish-lists
nimble hatch
That's a great approah, not leaving QA as one of the last steps then feeling disheartened at the backlog of amendments
nimble hatch
Well yeah, macromangement with a minute level of macromangement to ensure effective organised progress
devout turtle
handy talks about organisational values as a basis of the doughnut
in CDLC terms one big value is to meet bohemias acceptance criteria
nimble hatch
Well I haven't managed as big of a team as you have yet in the capacity described, these are definitely points I'm taking in
devout turtle
and a team value is to push the envelope and see what we can achieve and get BI to give way on/ accept.
a natural tension
nimble hatch
My thought process prior was organised intermittent feedback meetings
That's too stringent I guess?
devout turtle
from my experience, each team member needs a google doc to do list, or some kind of phabricator/ trello board
nimble hatch
Oh we got that
devout turtle
you cant get people in the same room at the same time for stand up meetings, due to timezones
nimble hatch
That's a massive must have