We noticed.
#ip_rights_violations
tawny sentinel
vocal quiver
I thought you said that it must state something about not using it with monetization beforehand π© can't we get our stories straight
dull moon
i rephrase:
"hate lifers who deny to learn and respect old folks and their knowledge"
carmine folio
echo orchid
i have yet to see a proper mod done for life, you know, like from scratch, custom made proper content
safe arrow
He just wants BI to take actions, so he can blame it all on them. And he the poor guy has to let down the community, he who did nothing wrong...
carmine folio
Im not even gonna speak to you volvo your logic in general is flawed
mental edge
Let's out ourselves, I too am a lifer. please do not stone me. 
carmine folio
@echo orchid There is a lot of content from Scratch its just all shared privately
tawny sentinel
doubt
blazing wyvern
lol good one
mental edge
Hmm, my chess mod isn't exactly war-like content. You're hurting me π’
vocal quiver
wait is it still a ip rights violation if you just take models from other games and port them into arma and claim them as your own?
tawny sentinel
Are you serious?
proper charm
Yes it is
carmine folio
Cx
proper charm
Ripped assets is not okay
dull moon
that's theft like in the books
vocal quiver
oh ok so i can claim this stolen model as my own?
echo orchid
good grief
blazing wyvern
trolololo
dull moon
ffs...
echo orchid
i really hope he is trolling
vocal quiver
ok so they better provide proof of every asset they own before coming to me with a violation
mental edge
https://discordapp.com/channels/105462288051380224/105792634995388416/459735669275623444
is onto something probably.
carmine folio
Oh shit
dull moon
and i thought this was going a good direction for a sec
echo orchid
that is simple for most people
tawny sentinel
Definitively a lot of original content being shared privately that are done from scratch and properly π€ @echo orchid
Really makes you think
carmine folio
Who's mods has he stolen
vocal quiver
otherwise they are attempting to claim stolen content as their own and are breaking the law
echo orchid
i just made a list of people
that i know who made content from scratch
content you use on your monetized server
carmine folio
@echo orchid Who's mods has he stolen
dull moon
well, if the pbo is named <RH>, the models in it are also named <RH> and the autor hase the source files.... that's proof enough
steep quiver
I mean it fits the bill. All the what-aboutism, making themselves victims, ... @mental edge
echo orchid
i don't really care about all the other ripped shit you are using
mental edge
yeah it does. π
blazing wyvern
they ripped my shit to pieces and stopped caring because i would lose my mind over it , not worth it
chilly pebble
Jesus this is getting ott
mental edge
Like normal people when busted just quietly walk out the back, not keep bringing it up. π
echo orchid
- melb
- mdb buildings
- mm buildings
- SMA
- TRYK
- Jbad
- BNAE```This is funny if anything
vocal quiver
wait like i said though, if you take a model from another game, port it to arma, and claim it as your own, you are breaking the law, therefore your violations request is invalid
tawny sentinel
?????
thorn vector
@vocal quiver why the hell is a violation request invalid, if you are breaking the law? Can you please THINK before writing something?
proper charm
Can you proof that they're from another game? And pretty sure if those models are from another game we would be talking about it here.
blazing wyvern
more like - stupid trolling
tawny sentinel
This is Dante's 11th circle of stupidity
thorn vector
@chilly pebble yeah definetly looks like it π but it's denial atm
echo orchid
again, i don't care about that, i really only care about the a handfull of people that are making content by themselves on their own, from scratch
vocal quiver
because if bohemia is threatening possible legal action against a user over stolen content they may be held liable
mental edge
steals laundry machine from store
changes stickers on it
claims as own
chilly pebble
I'd say it's more anger, or maybe it's slowly getting borderline.
dull moon
but if you refer to th KA mods... you make yourself a combatant for using it
vocal quiver
I'm simply trying to get into the core of what's really allowed here
proper charm
@chilly pebble π€·
carmine folio
Well im out thanks for the laughs
thorn vector
@vocal quiver I think there were rules for that.
echo orchid
if microsoft wants to enforce their IP rights over forza, then they should do it on their own. That being said, the simple fact that you are using ripped shit makes me puke a little
chilly pebble
The depression part is my favourite, to be honest.
vocal quiver
all im getting is the repeated vague answers
carmine folio
it was nice to meet the nice people and fuck the haters
proper charm
Honestly, did you just tried to imply all modders here use ripped assets?
vocal quiver
no ofcourse not der
proper charm
Because we couod read your words as such
vocal quiver
what
echo orchid
steep quiver
the rules (and laws) say pretty clearly what is and what isn't allowed, no vagueness
vocal quiver
this is a hypothetical situation I'm bringing up regarding mods and how they are created in arma 3
mental edge
remind me again, why did BI go with the same policy this year?
safe arrow
Doesnt interest. Only valid point is the mods you are using illegaly on a monetized server
echo orchid
no idea, i expressed, together with a lot of others my discontent regarding even allowing monetization
still, not fucks given about feedback
vocal quiver
I personally think it's because they listen to the minority of people in this discord telling them it's helping the arma 3 community grow
chilly pebble
lmao
dull moon
@vocal quiver
the TL;DR version of what is allowed and what not:
- you are allowed to use mods on your server that are publically avaliable
- you are NOT allowed to redistribute them on the steam workshop
- you are NOT allowed to edit them (if not said otherwise)
- you are NOT allowed to monetize a server without BIs approval
- if you monetize, you need every mod autors permission first
echo orchid
block monetization altogether - problem solved
mental edge
^
vocal quiver
I mean, just look at how many servers existed before monetization and how popular the game was
all these devs working for profit and making GOOD content not restricting anything
narrow topaz
Might have something to do with the fact that the game was a year old and DayZ hype moreso than monetization things
vocal quiver
now its just arguments over who owns what and when you're going to be thrown in jail for using my arma 3 mod
safe arrow
Still waiting to see even one of those so called devs that made money and left.
echo orchid
i have yet to work on mods in A3 for any sort of profit, bar the time i actually worked on Arma
thorn vector
@vocal quiver good content? Yeah I've seen a lot of that, but it's out there right now, RHS for example, CUP Terrains, the new Map Vidda.. what are you talking about?
dull moon
it's prohibited to sell content that was created with tools provided by BI
so much for that
mental edge
@echo orchid how many hours would you guess that is? To get an idea.
languid fog
"Hey that's a nice bike you got there, let me just copy it then sell it as my own... oh by the way I didnt ask for permission first"...
dull moon
not if game ready π
vocal quiver
RHS and CUP are old, sure there's random maps popping up and milsim missions but nothing significant
echo orchid
@mental edge as in since 2007? fuck knows
vocal quiver
maybe I'm just referring to the life side of things
carmine folio
why is @vocal quiver still arguing... Take the L fatty
dull moon
dude...
echo orchid
@dull moon i can do it game ready if i do not use BI tools
vocal quiver
I'm actually skinny thanks
proper charm
I'll go back to my modding hole as soon as I get back to my workstation.
thorn vector
I wouldn't consider mods "old", just because they were out before others. They are being updated, new content is being added to them and so on, so where's your point @vocal quiver
vocal quiver
I just like getting into conversations and listening to what others have to say you know, its interesting
proper charm
@chilly pebble the usual, using mods without permission on monetized server.
echo orchid
i can tell you now there is no other modding group older than RHS in Arma π
chilly pebble
oic
mental edge
oooooooooh π₯
vocal quiver
okay
chilly pebble
Why monetise a server without telling staff
dull moon
@pliant oar
mental edge
@fossil basalt ^
vocal quiver
take your edgy shit elsewhere @toxic mortar
proper charm
Can we ban hajaar for racism?
blazing wyvern
no sory
dull moon
@proper charm
a matter of seconds i guess
thorn vector
@vocal quiver Conversations work two ways, you also have to read what we are saying, and it doesn't seem like you do understand that we are saying things to you π
@echo orchid yeah, RHS may be old, but they still bring new content, that's what counts π
pliant oar
@toxic mortar 
can't run out of juice π
tawny sentinel
Oopsie owie
mental edge
hajaar 17:21-17:22
blazing wyvern
where the hell these people come from?
tawny sentinel
Psisyndicate's stream
blazing wyvern
what the hell is up today?
chilly pebble
Probably the worst attempt at a derail I've ever seen.
echo orchid
i'm gonna start a petition to get PuFu mod π
vocal quiver
true
humble garnet
mental edge
who is Pufu?
tawny sentinel
Idk, some dude
echo orchid
no clue, some nobody
tawny sentinel
He's cool sometimes
echo orchid
@thorn vector tell me about it π
chilly pebble
Β―_(γ)_/Β―
tawny sentinel
^
dull moon
uuuuhhhh
mental edge
π
pliant oar
i do wish i could be evil and integrate lifetime-all-our-games-ban against any toxic person in any services around our games, would be saving so much staff time
mental edge
please, someone trick him into this.
vocal quiver
anyways, I'd like to apologize for any sort of issues I've caused with my views on how content creation should be handled, I'll be going to bed now, and yes i was paying attention to your points
mental edge
goodnight @vocal quiver
dull moon
so he starts taking down milsim servers? nope π
vocal quiver
night
tawny sentinel
Nighty Night.
thorn vector
Good night @vocal quiver
echo orchid
i don't play much A3 these days anyways
chilly pebble
Noite
blazing wyvern
it been hot for 8 hours , so leave it cool for now π
echo orchid
i'm off
mental edge
Pufu, beware of any game invitations... π
pliant oar
he already gets so many that he autoignore everything π€£
mental edge
π also back to modding, cya folks
mint edge
that was productive
dull moon
then you did not try hard enough to ptfo π
fossil basalt
And another one gone
scarlet osprey
Why was mr Repentz banned π¦
safe arrow
Oh and here is the next one ignoring the monitization rules, he accepted when registering his server.
pliant oar
looks at @fossil basalt while busy typing something about new #perf_prof_branch build
soft egret
Really guys.. You're still at it :U
scarlet osprey
I was just asking a question π¦ ok, have a good day guys
fossil basalt
Have you removed that prohibited content yet then PsiSyn?
The content that you are monetising against the monetisation rules?
pliant oar
@scarlet osprey i really wish you put your community into order instead of letting them loose to waste other people time for thing like 'ignoring IP rights of content creators etc.'
scarlet osprey
I too would rather not waste people's time @pliant oar, but I don't think banning Repentz would solve any of this.
carmine folio
ahahah @scarlet osprey hold the L buck tooth boy
safe arrow
Why doesnt BI just take action against those guys obviously and intentionally violating and ignoring the rules they accepted when registering for monitization?
soft egret
^ Same thought
safe arrow
This is not a case of asking nicely anymore, if you read the last 1000 comments in here
soft egret
they have been reported multiple times already
pliant oar
i banned the worst offenders only, as i'm busy with more important things
soft egret
but maybe after today something might finally happen
scarlet osprey
Dedmen, can you tell me a bit more about TFR by the way
You own rights to "TFR 1.0", right?
pliant oar
anyway on Discords i manage there is quite strict rule about toxicity, who pushes the boundary gets ban and that's it
scarlet osprey
What defines "TFR 1.0"
soft egret
He means the PsiSyn server. Not the spammers here Dwarden
safe arrow
Its not about the users on this Discord, its about their servers, where they are making money from others guys contents
scarlet osprey
I've never heard of this build?
fossil basalt
Still haven't answered my question @scarlet osprey
pliant oar
you as someone with tens thousands users community shall know that approach best
soft egret
@scarlet osprey Don't know what that TFR is supposed to be.
fossil basalt
Very well, I'll drop that email this afternoon then
carmine folio
how's that 20$ a day from Streaming @scarlet osprey
soft egret
The mod is called TFAR
pliant oar
@carmine folio no mocking in public chat, wrong channel and wrong discord, take that elsewhere
soft egret
TFAR 1.0 is the next update of TFAR
carmine folio
No problem sir
pliant oar
sry frank, wrong @ id π
carmine folio
PM @pliant oar
its a good laff
Its gucci Im sure I have insulted someone Im scottish its inevitable
proper charm
I'm sure you meant @carmine folio , dwarden
scarlet osprey
Ah, but Nkey is the main contributor to 0.9.12?
soft egret
no
I took over TFAR development after 0.9.8
so everything after that it mostly made by me
scarlet osprey
There are public builds past 0.9.12?
scarlet osprey
But we don't use 0.9.8 onwards?
soft egret
What do you mean? current stable build is 0.9.12
soft egret
Yeah. There were 10 and 11 inbetween. But they were never really released
scarlet osprey
Ah okay
soft egret
No. I'm physically unable to press that button
coral tendon
Honestly I would respect you more @scarlet osprey but you let hackers run your server and tested hacks on it
scarlet osprey
That's simply not true @coral tendon
And if this is the case, it is not something done with my permission.
coral tendon
Okay so 3dprinter/Fini ring a bell?
scarlet osprey
We have no hackers WL'd to my knowledge and use Infi bans
narrow topaz
Not a conversation for this channel fellas
proper charm
So I'm assuming the drama is now over?
coral tendon
i'll pm ya
scarlet osprey
I've heard of Fini before, but if he's Infi banned, he's not on our server.
Sure thing.
proper charm
Also move this drama elsewhere
scarlet osprey
Have a good day all.
steep quiver
I have a feeling they'll downgrade TFAR to whatever version before Dedmen started working on it ignoring the fact they still need permission from NKey
proper charm
G'night. I'll have a work interview in 12 hours and it's 12 am. Welp. Cya folks, and please give credit where credit is due so we won't have to use this channel that often. π π
soft egret
@steep quiver Same. Won't help them though
dull moon
Β―_(γ)_/Β―
carmine folio
"I've heard about Fini Before" @scarlet osprey
Homie he was your Security Advisor?
dull moon
@carmine folio
this channel is no place for this
carmine folio
YES SIR!
carmine folio
YES SIR!
mint edge
may we assume the monetized server listing will be somewhat more moderated now? if anything came of this
tawny sentinel
@scarlet osprey Even with the existence of older TFAR builds, the license hasn't changed to my know knowledge, so monetization is still a no-go.
soft egret
You need explicit permission to monetize that mod. Don't have it. Can't. No matter what version
There is no easy way to get around it no matter how hard you try
But after you loose your monetization license it won't matter anymore and you can use it all you want
wild stone
Exactly
soft egret
Watch psisyn talk about me liev on stream
And watch him still not understanding anything
dull moon
what stream?
soft egret
twitch/psisyn
steep quiver
I dunno, can you even legit not understand basic rules?
soft egret
Have to agree with him though. It wasn't his server to begin with. It's just under his name
safe arrow
Still he knew about possible complications when just taking others mods. He even made a video about that stuff... and then built his own server with the same shit, even monetized. And still tries to tells us here that he didnt know nothing and asumed strange things. π
mental edge
Yeah, it's too bad, but if one of your devs sneaks in poisoned IP, you're f*cked.
soft egret
and then built his own server with the same shit He just allowed people to make a server under his name.
He is talking to people who talk to people who take care of the server
steep quiver
He's listed on their web as "Founder"
soft egret
Yeah. He is also at fault for not taking care about what his people are doing
Could also look at it from a different point of view and think of him like the capitain that's leaving the sinking ship first....
I don't know enough about him though.
steep quiver
Might be cashing out and blaming Bohemia for shutting them down.
safe arrow
Its still his name on it and still him answering. Even worse if he let someone use his name and not even take care what they are doing or what monetization is about. Its always the same excuse: i didnt read this license, i didnt know that its not allowed to do that.... all just because people are too lazy/dump to read any of the licenses they agree upon.
soft egret
Nope he isn't. He's "blaming" repentz for it. And he is the guy taking care of the server so it makes sense
safe arrow
Even worse, when the make money from this.
mental edge
As usual, follow the money and you'll find the culprit.
steep quiver
@soft egret cynical me says damage control to save brand, but background is different
low tapir
^^^^^^
safe arrow
β
olive sparrow
@blazing wyvern do you give permission to @scarlet osprey to use your weapons in his monetized server?
blazing wyvern
nobody has permission to use it on monetized servers
olive sparrow
Like many of the mods those guys used, they did not seek PRIOR permission despite stating this in their application to BI. That is the only issue here folks. And clearly from Roberthammers own lips right there the psisyn server must be closed today.
Thanks RH for prompt reply
@wild stone @fossil basalt please can you handle it from here?
soft egret
they are already on it
olive sparrow
I cant believe i had to wade through 900 messages to reach that conclusion. Props to dedmen pufu et al for trying to keep the issue clear. More power to your elbows sirs.
If i had my way weβd have a warchest put aside and go after Lewis for financial damages
soft egret
I didn't really do anything. I just told BI that they are violating a rule and have been doing that for months. That's it.
I guess the main fact is that previously they would just remove mods on rule violation and consider it fixed.
But TFAR was apparently to important for them to do that again
steep quiver
What's the procedure actually? Warning to C&D? Banning the account that runs the server?
soft egret
For what?
fossil basalt
Yours wasn't the only report Ded.
soft egret
Revocation of monetization license. If they continue to monetize their server will get taken down
yeah. But I think things like RH and HLC they can just remove and be "fine"-ish
They also most likely didn't get permission from CBA
fossil basalt
They've received so many complaints about them that they had to act.
soft egret
which might be a little more important than TFAR
fresh harbor
just imagine if cba would suddenly disallow monetization
fossil basalt
It will be interesting to see how they deal with the monetary aspect because it was in essence, theft fraud.
olive sparrow
The procedure is seek permission to use mods apply for monetized status collect money
steep quiver
Ah.
BTW I love how in the monetized server list from Bohemia they have link to (old and now defunct) shop in the "Rules" button.
fossil basalt
By stating that they had permission to monetise the content they used, fraud was committed.
olive sparrow
If you fail to follow the procedure you will have your monetized sttus revoked and then you get C&D from BI legal who can have your servers shut down at source
In a better world weβd have a collective legal rep to go fir damages
fossil basalt
Which they most likely still reserve the right to do, especially considering the amount of money involved.
fresh harbor
it's funny how the psisyn guy is now talking about other life servers stole a "bank" asset from their server ...
and he's not ok with it
dull moon
Β―_(γ)_/Β―
he's also "not cool" with ppl who do not ask for removal of mods first before filing legal actions
RTFM is all i say
heavy moon
dedmen linked a video where he was slating life servers years ago for doing this exact same thing
soft egret
just imagine if cba would suddenly disallow monetization @fresh harbor monetization is disallowed by default. They need to specifically ask for permission for every mod.
heavy moon
proquo - you dont shit on your own doorstep.
dull moon
not?
fossil basalt
Whereβs all this being said?
dull moon
psisyn twitch stream
soft egret
@fresh harbor the other life server had the bank asset first. He then got permission by the authors (so he says) and used it. So the asset was someone elses not his.
https://www.twitch.tv/psisyn There
fossil basalt
People still use twitch?
mint edge
just for fortnite
olive sparrow
Chris uro and some others - we could suggest to Bi offering to do random audits of registered servers where we ask them to provide proof of permission for a sample if their hosted mods, and then issue a 7 days to produce it or be removed
low tapir
mixer is the new thing
heavy moon
I agree with @steep quiver probs most likely distancing himself/damage control considering he already was implicit in those csgo betting scams.
olive sparrow
That might add a stage that stops this rot
dull moon
too much hassle
heavy moon
anyways better this stuff is in the open
fossil basalt
All it takes is for one person/server to be made an example of
olive sparrow
Not sure
fossil basalt
Smack them down hard and the rats will scatter
olive sparrow
I think a bit of random spot checking would clear the streets
fossil basalt
That too
olive sparrow
As they know we could knock at any minute
safe arrow
And it takes this stupid argument: all other do it too without consequences.
dull moon
Smack them down hard and the rats will scatter
sad thing, placing an example won't do much
fossil basalt
Auditors would be stretching a thin staff even thinner
olive sparrow
And how health and safety food hygiene quality management supermarket supply chain and every other regulated activity goes
dull moon
i'd love to have an interface where i can enter a server IP adress, and a big ass red button called "burn it with fire", and see a server disappearing on the serverlist... for good
fossil basalt
Iβve made the suggestion for βlimited employeesβ , but it hasnβt gotten much traction.
olive sparrow
Some volunteers from the mod community could do it. Id be happy to train audit process to people ive done it in military and government very simple
fossil basalt
BI requires them to be employees
olive sparrow
Then off they go and visit one server per week
fossil basalt
Hence the βlimited employeeβ
coral tendon
So how does monetization work if a server has a goal to reach with donations? Then everyone received said perk when a goal is reached?
dull moon
what?
narrow topaz
So long as it's accessible to everyone, it's fine.
heavy moon
donations are given without reward
coral tendon
Well bi monetization allows perks with donations if everyone receives it uro
olive sparrow
I suppose theyd be representing BI interests sonit makes sense to be employee but then moderators do the same rep and arent employed
coral tendon
@errant drum I never come in here only when drama happens lol
fossil basalt
If everyone receives it, itβs not a perk
heavy moon
@coral tendon read this -> https://www.bohemia.net/monetization
errant drum
But going after people who are already approved is a witch hunt tbh
soft egret
@coral tendon people can do what they want. Donate 5β¬ and get a perk. Doesn't need to be any goal. But could be
dull moon
@errant drum
not if they fucked up
errant drum
As @echo orchid mentioned,if you are a mod author and u wanna take someone down it takes 2 minutes
soft egret
giving someone to everyone once a donation goal is reached might also be possible without monetization license? Not sure
fossil basalt
@olive sparrow I cant for example flag SW items
safe arrow
No witchhunt if they are in fact violating the terms they agreed upon
coral tendon
I've read it a million times. Even at times it's confusing. Can't remember the amount of discussion I've had in exile mod admin channel about it
errant drum
@dull moon @safe arrow I am not talking about psisyn
I'm talking about people who are already approved
And do not have permission writen by every single author
safe arrow
Approved of what? sorry got that wrong
fossil basalt
The rules that URO posted are quite clear
errant drum
BI monetization
dull moon
so what? if they get caught fucking shit up, burn 'em
safe arrow
If they dont have the permission, they are not legit to be approved
safe arrow
And if they take in other mods without asking, thats still no witchhunt, but them violating the terms
dull moon
having a drivers license doesn't mean you are free of all police controlls... same as for monetized servers. beeing approved doesn't mean that noone will check back at times
safe arrow
And NO its not BIs fault, its the fault of that idiots, intentionally violating the terms.
pliant oar
you can't ask for us to continuously check all the servers for any random theoretical violation
errant drum
No here's the deal
fossil basalt
Itβs not BIs fault, itβs the server operator/ownerβs fraud for committing fraud.
pliant oar
there is no company on earth capable to logistically handle that task
olive sparrow
I volunteer dwarden to help with that
fossil basalt
As do I
pliant oar
that's why we hired freelancing smart AI to do it π
olive sparrow
I can write a protocol for professionally auditing and communicating and train volunteers you select
coral tendon
I'll help out too lol. Since I work with exile mod
fossil basalt
I meant, I volunteer for that
olive sparrow
It would really work
errant drum
There are servers that have been already approved, even a long time ago. And I am sure that the mods they are using do not say or do not impede to use monetization. Although, such people have not obtained in the past written permission from mod authors. Now going against those people (And I can easily point out more than a dozen of server) and ending their service is a legit witch hunt. Not sure how this will help improve things, just cause they don't have written permission
olive sparrow
One server a week each is a tiny obligatin
We would be able rapidly to identify the mods that are permitted and then focus on the ones which arent usually
heavy moon
you could do more than one a week, 1/week is only 52/year, which isnt even getting ya boots wet π
errant drum
Regardless the mod permitting it or not
olive sparrow
Not a witch hunt but a positive service in support of the monetization program
To help keep its reputation safe otherwise BI might abandon it
errant drum
There are servers that use mods of authors that haven't logged in years (Look for example people using Esseker map) but he never said the mod is not allowed to be monetized, nor people using the map asked permission for it
dull moon
@errant drum
that was always the case... butthurt life admins where calling out other server admins... nothing new
errant drum
Yeah I mean idc honestly, I think that if you follow the simple rule of, this mod does not allow monetization then don't use it, its fine
olive sparrow
We could have a simple list if permitted not permitted and grey area
fossil basalt
@errant drum if they donβt have legally verifiable consent, they are illegally monetising
coral tendon
That's like 95% of Arma servers
olive sparrow
And start by policing the not permitteds
safe arrow
But not 95% of the arma servers take money
fossil basalt
All mods are not permitted to be monetised unless specific permission is given! How hard is that to understand?
coral tendon
A good majority do though
olive sparrow
They dont have to clise they just have to remove monetized project
heavy moon
You also have to remember, some of those approved servers may have applied for monetisation when using say a group/clan-pay system, and have since changed their formats to having "donation stores",. in those cases they should have to re-apply for monetisation and mod approval, as they are effectively changing the terms under which they obtained a monetisation licence from those mods.
coral tendon
@fossil basalt people who don't understand english. For instance I come across a lot of servers from China and turkey
olive sparrow
Its not like being banned its just having your income restricted
fossil basalt
So they get shut down. Simple
fossil basalt
Donβt confuse servers with Monetised servers
dull moon
@coral tendon
go ahead... if you have proof they violate
coral tendon
Cash shops with base kits
olive sparrow
Anyway @pliant oar happy talk to you guys about it if you can use the support
safe arrow
And dont confuse real donations with ingame shops and paywalls
coral tendon
They aren't monetized with Bohemia though
fossil basalt
Then thatβs an instant shut down. Next
coral tendon
Ty
errant drum
I can say for sure, 1000% that at least all the exile servers on the monetization list, do not have written permission from the mods they are using
safe arrow
Say for sure or have proof? Dont confuse that also
soft egret
Such a simple rule. So hard to follow
safe arrow
Because, this now is indeed a witchhunt
fossil basalt
If you are not an approved monetiser, you are prohibited from monetising. If you are an approved monetiser and are caught monetising someone elseβs content, I almost feel sorry for them for what could potentially happen.
errant drum
I know all exile server owners @safe arrow
soft egret
Honestly hard. Like.. Get the guy in charge for CBA to ask for permission... Don't even know who that would be.
errant drum
I know how the process has been dealt with in the last 3 years
safe arrow
Well then go ahead and send them the list together with your proofs.
silent patrol
Just to get a few things straight, If you don't have monetization do you still have to request permission to use? Or is it on a mod to mod basis
errant drum
We all know that mods like RHS and CUP do not allow it, and also some other mods, but when people used to get approval, it was just to make sure to use mods that did not have any problems with it
Not getting written permission
fossil basalt
If no monetisation, you can use whatever mod you want . There is more to this though.
errant drum
And it has always been up to the mod dev to go and report the servers
wild pollen
If you don't have monetization you do not need permission to "use" a mod. Just read the mods license before you install it
soft egret
If you don't monetize then you don't monetize
errant drum
And take it down
silent patrol
And distributing the mods through your own methods like Arma3Sync so that you can resign it, Is that allowed?
With credit of course
errant drum
If you have permission yes
dull moon
It's not up to a mod autor to contacts a serveradmin requesting a mod takedown because he don't want it monetized, it's the admins that have to ask permission first...
soft egret
technically not really. But most modders and I don't really care about small servers just using their mods
If you get your mods via a3sync. you have to host it yourself. Not much you or anyone else could change
but for example reuploading mods on workshop is nonsense
silent patrol
I'm just going to take the safe road and conversate with any mod creators if I ever want to use the mods for anything I do in the future
soft egret
Because you could just subscribe to the original which is also on workshop
errant drum
@dull moon that was never the case, I am not sure if you ever ran a community or got monetized before, but no one ever did that, it was just make sure u are allowed to monetize with the mod or not that's it
soft egret
0x4 EOT (Ascii joke)
fossil basalt
Lol
errant drum
Ez
dull moon
i used to ran one of the biggest arma2OA ACE/ACRE communities in germany with over 800 active members. i know what an admin has to do
errant drum
Well I probably still run one of the biggest A3 communities as of now, and I know what many admins have been doing for the last 3 years
I am just saying
How it works, and how it has been working
lol
dull moon
so you know it's asking first π
heavy moon
@silent patrol yeah always ask authors before doing stuff with their content, and do not reupload their content without permission - re:steam workshop - uploading content which does not belong to you, and you have no IP rights over is in breach of the steam licence, you can however create a collection of existing items that are on the workshop. you can then just link your group to that collection and they can one-click install all the mods in it.
whole relic
Even the smaller communities know to ask first.
fossil basalt
In the past, people did a lot of unauthorised stuff, but they didnt brag about. This is what has caused things to change.
coral tendon
@safe arrow I also know all of the exile mod servers(been on the exile mod team since its incarnation) but so many break the rules with their cash shops with base kits, respect, pop tabs
safe arrow
Yep, i believe you. Then go on and send that list to BI.
(Also i am sure i dont know you, and i ran an modded exile server too, payed by my own)
errant drum
Get rich, fuck bishes, Arma 3 community lyfe
dull moon
now it's like i said it some hours before:
monkey sees, monkey does...
many servers in A3 got away with their shady biz because the monitoring system faild horribly. others saw that and jumped the train, resulting to what it is now
fervent needle
the monetization train has no brakes
heavy moon
too much lube on the tracks.
low tapir
all aboard the crazy train
dull moon
and no conscience either @fervent needle
pure wagon
hey men
errant drum
@fervent needle make me a mod pls
pure wagon
is someone interested in joining a spanish community?
dull moon
wrong place @pure wagon
heavy moon
wrong channel
soft egret
@pure wagon go to #communities_arma3 and use the template
fervent needle
π€
pure wagon
thanks
errant drum
tks
heavy moon
ot: i bet dedmen wishes he could /command bind stuff like in the good ol irc days for redirects π
pure wagon
@soft egret how can i post my discord channel or my unit there?
heavy moon
@pure wagon if you look at the pinned message at the top in #communities_arma3 there is a template there, shows you how to format it
pure wagon
thanks
steep quiver
Well, it just sounds like BI is giving too many second chances. Or third and so on, to be more precise.
fervent needle
I think its more people get by the entrance to monetization and then do what ever they want
once they are approved they can run wild until someone reports them, they get scolded and then remove X mod then wait and repeat
soft egret
^ Which is exactly what todays offender kept doing. Till they actually couldn't just remove the mod
steep quiver
That's what I meant by third chances. First warning should be also last.
dull moon
you can not enfoce rules if the system behind it is rotten
the only hope we have right now is a better system with A4 and BI working closer toghether with folks from the community
coral tendon
Is it true mod makers aren't allowed to monetize their work no matter what though ?
pliant oar
silenting works on draconian web of control with glittering droplets of administrative solutions
fervent needle
gets sacrificial goat ready
dull moon
π
pliant oar
andrew i think you would need sacrify chris to keep it secret π
coral tendon
i'd be cool with throwing him up as an offering
pliant oar
don't take my words too seriously, i don't want to be involved in someone ritual slaughter 
dull moon
i'll take one for the team, but remember: noone get's left behind! i want a honor grave π
pliant oar
but ye definitely i aim for better system in the 'next time' attempt π
dull moon
F off π
pliant oar
it's clealry obvious the limited BattlEye removal from servers or random hunting for violators on store isn't good enough
andrew that would apply only if there is no will or will w/o the monetizing addenum
observes chris to fast adding no-monetizing my grave or ashes text
dull moon
sounds good, you really should include admins of the major mods into yout thinktank @pliant oar
like REALLY
fervent needle
π
pliant oar
it might happen, it all depends on the interconnectivity of those systems
dull moon
btw, my last will will be released under CC BY NC ND
π
i'd sell my (non existing) soul to represent CUP in a thinktank, PuFu for RHS, OPTiX and his crawler slaves, Dedmen
ect
fossil basalt
Aka, the non necro license
steep quiver
somebody will rip the will and upload to Steam workshop anyway
fossil basalt
And be taken down
soft egret
@coral tendon modders can't monetize stuff made with using the BI tools
mental edge
I've been thinking about this though. Can you sell them everything up to a point that they just use BI tools to make the final product?
as it seems Pufu implied that earlier
soft egret
yeah. you could
dull moon
that is possible
soft egret
For example what infistar is doing.
mental edge
Now, if said client has 3rd party tools, say mikero, installed. Can you provide them .bats or similar things to automate this process?
soft egret
yeah sure
dull moon
sure
mental edge
Because that seems like a logical workaround to me and has for years.
steep quiver
then again community is used to not have monetized stuff
fervent needle
or you make the mod and only allow usage of it on your own server then monetize that server
π€
mental edge
It would also allow the distributing party to monitor content in a way? I know I'm probably reaching here.
dull moon
but why workarounds... i'd say "same rights for everyone"
since mod monetization is tricky, as shown in the past by other game devs, i would go with "no monetization at all"
mental edge
Same Chris, but you know, rules get tested and in the current state, I don't see why nobody went with this approach instead of those shady practices.
dull moon
no money, no envy, less problems
fervent needle
can of worms here but if mod makers were allowed to monetize their own mods... would this be such an issue like it is now?
mental edge
Well, again, reaching here, but imagine how many beautiful paintings the world wouldn't have known weren't it for 3rd parties financing these painters.
dull moon
as soon as money is involved in any kind of project, shit is about to hit the fan... it used to be like that, and it always will be
fervent needle
donation goal gets met new cup update gets released
π
or low quality textures -> pay to get hq π
thats more of DLC content butt
dull moon
now imagine CUP and the on and off freelance freetime hobby devs... how should that work out with the payback
?
fervent needle
work in = % out
mental edge
That's why contracts and agreements exist, Chris. As many things, not regulating it allows for communities to explore on their own, checking the limits.
fervent needle
I accept a small payment for my fantastic ideas
fossil basalt
1 Cup, 2 monies
mental edge
I've donated to many projects in the past and will continue doing so. Expecting things to be free is just... unrealistic sometimes.
dull moon
too much of a hassle.
"uhmmm, he's longer here than me, but had less commits to the repo... why is he still getting more money...???"
nah, thanks
mental edge
And honestly, seeing things like xPhone going for prices > A3 cost is just astonishing to me.
dull moon
one thing could be, collecting all the money and invite all contributors and devs to a 14 days "getting totally wasted and fucked up" drinking trip to BI HQ π
mental edge
Well, you're assuming commission-based pay-outs. I'd go with fix amounts, but yeah.
dull moon
how to regulate that? who is getting what ammount? based on what values?
fervent needle
group vacation, you travel everything else paid for lol
mental edge
Well, a look at a regular enterprise would answer those questions I presume.
dull moon
those are employees most likely, not freetime modders who come and go as they like
mental edge
Yeah, work for hires.
dull moon
sure, like "we need those 2 models done in 4 days, you get 600,- for it"
mental edge
Indeed it could be. Just saying, I'm glad I got my earlier questions confirmed at least. Clears things up.
dull moon
(numbers are fictitious)
mental edge
#350
dull moon
i was just waiting for it π
but honestly, no one at CUP will go through all that paper- NDA- contract trouble
mental edge
Thing is, with that approach, budgets can be determined, work can be scoped, products deployed,... just as easy and legally.
dull moon
and on the other hand users start to demand, because they payed for it. not possible for freetime modders. then a company/studio needs to be founded that has employees
meh
too much trouble for a mod
IMO
well, for CUP
fervent needle
but the option should be available, even if one mod doesnt make use of it
could be used as a tools/product fund for the mod
mental edge
Not naming any companies here, but key clients often are responsible for new features in our products, they shell out the big bucks to get them first of course, but eventually they get integrated in the main product so everybody wins.
fervent needle
doesn't have to be a kick back to be paid
go the earlyaccess route/kickstarter
get money hire more work to be done
π
mental edge
Yeah, LEAN models essentially.
dull moon
ok, we have monetized mods...
peepz payed like 5.- for a mod. soon after internal fights at the mod team leads to a split of the team and the abandoning of the mod. no more updates... what happens to the user who paid 5,- for it?
mental edge
tbf, I'm assuming this is a legal entity. If I'm correct RHS is the only official(ly recognised) entity creating A3 mods, right?
dull moon
since this is a product, not sure what kind, a "no refund" comment in the mod eula is not legal
mental edge
Well, as usual, depends on the situation and local laws. ^
dull moon
local laws indeed, what about teams with members from all over the world?
fervent needle
If I were to monetize a mod, I would do it more along the line of current rules - cosmetic/non game changing ways and if you donated/supported then your name or logo would be featured in the next update of the mod.. which for example like when a vehicle spawns it could randomly have your logo on it somewhere (like clan units have the images displayed when you hop in the vehicle) or your name gets added to a billboard/building somewhere
something like that vs buying the mod
is what I would do personally I guess
mental edge
I'm not gonna go into detail, gotta continue working, but yeah considering most of them would be WFH, I'd say in case of bankruptcy, same local laws apply. In my country, if management is considered liable, they can get fined and need to pay damages back. (heavily simplified)
Andrew, that's not really a good business model. Depending on donations is not a viable source of income.
dull moon
Exactly, and there is even more behind that. Bankruptcy of a firm, a private person, a group of persons... ect...
My point is, monetizing mods can be a grave for a lot of peepz because there is so much behind it
So much unexplored holes in the net
mental edge
Sure, that's why you educate yourself or search for help where you need it. I'm just saying it can be done (and without all this shit) that's all.
fervent needle
I wouldnt treat hosting servers or modding as a viable source of income, more of an official/monetized way to support your work
dull moon
In theory, yes. Then again a monetized mod needs QC. Who will do that?
fervent needle
If I would try to do it commercially/depend on income then I wouldnβt bother tbh
dull moon
About QC?
fervent needle
People would be welcome to do that but its not something I would explore
mental edge
I'd be happy to discuss that another time. Gotta continue now o7 cya
dull moon
o7
fervent needle
adios
proud flicker
Everyone beware, there is currently a Fallout:NV mod being "made", I went onto their Discord and informed them of the issues with ripped assets / IP infringement.
I wanted to check in today again and found that I am no longer on their discord where I informed them. So I am not sure if I was kicked or the discord shut down, but please everyone keep an eye out for them.
dull moon
got a link?
wild pollen
Arma in falloutNV or FalloutNV in arma?
severe yew
Earthquake machine sends CSAT seven hundred years into the future
fallow panther
I'd love to see a CSAT VTOL vs Vertibird dogfight.
echo orchid
rhs eula does not allow goal donations for ingame shit and other perks
i donβt care what BI considers reasonable, i personally donβt
and my own eula can supersede another one
@proud flicker can i get an invite in Pm or something to that discord
proud flicker
I can't find it anymore. I tried looking for the reddit thread where they linked it, but its no longer there. Thats why I think they may have realized what they are doing and shut it down themselves.
proud flicker
IIRC it was linked in the reddit post where they posted a picture of an NCR ranger.
Yeh, they probablly locked it down, thats why I wanted to ask everyone to keep an eye out.
proper charm
@proud flicker well, idk why chachi made it public before he's even ready to fully commit to the mod.
carmine folio
there was another one floating around that was a picture of a desert rangers that looked pretty much exactly like the ones from FNV
proper charm
I'm currently assigned as his supervisor for the 40k mod, I'll reprimand him and tell him to not do that.
proud flicker
There were three in total today, and the one showing the NCR Ranger had the discord link, the thread was full of "big iron on his hips" reference. So I am pretty sure they got cold feet and returned to private.
proper charm
@proud flicker yeah, I saw you on the one with discord link with NCR Ranger, he's privating it until he has proper assets.
if he fucked up, I'll let you know first
proud flicker
Ah roger. I told them that if they are doing things without ripped assets, they should make a thread in the BI forums.
proper charm
@proud flicker still a concept at this point.
he's still busy with the 40k mod so far
steep quiver
still, FalloutNV mod? gib, hope they can make it legit
wild pollen
I doubt it. BGS has a very strict no assets in other games policy. Even other BGS games
echo orchid
so unlikely....how would they make it legit to begin with?
pretty sure they could model everything from scratch but it is sooo unrealistical to think that is possible
steep quiver
Well, weapons in NV were based on real ones... Hell there literally was AR-15.
NCR had one uniform, Rangers had the coats and masks. No vehicles because Fallout.
proper charm
but there is still subtle differences like in decals, washer positions, etc. Was honestly excited for lasmusket if he ever makes one for arma.
wild pollen
Im not sure if your allowed to make it from scratch. I remember the NV weapon mod for fallout 4 wasnt allowed on the nexus for that reason
proper charm
wasn't it because it was ripped assets?
there was also plenty of BGS weapons that was modded to FO4 like doom armor, dishonored gears, etc. Pretty sure as long as you don't rip assets and make everything from scratch, it's okay.
cinder ridge
As far as I'm aware BGS is fine with people making mods based on their games as long as it is not ripped (as Der Kommissar said). I mean they dont even mind people remaking their older games in a newer engine as long as it doesnt use assets from the older games...
coral tendon
@soft egret Interesting but there is no tools out there that are better than BI Tools I assume?
fossil basalt
As far as I'm aware BGS is fine Official statement from the company or its rumour/conjecture that only fans the flames of stupidity.
soft egret
There are. And better by many accounts
wild pollen
BGS had to shutdown the FO3 in FO4 engine because of voice acting issues. Hopefully this mod doesnt have any voice lines
mint edge
sucks for bethesda modders they cant use old game content
would be smart if they atleast required a purchase of the old game
no clue how their modding works but i wonder if its possible for them to simply reference the old game content
dn0
wild pollen
I mean they paid for those assets. Wouldnt make sense for people to use them for free
If the owners of that property agrees to that then yes?
I never said they did
cinder ridge
@fossil basalt I haven't read any official statement. Its only from my experiece and from what I saw/heard. As mentioned they did shut down the FO3 in FO4 due to the voicelines being used, however so far they are completly fine with "Beyond Skyrim" which is bringing all Elder Scrolls Provinces into Skyrims Engine (some of which have been in older games). And the "Beyond Skyrim" Project is all made by scratch. So I guess its fair to assume they are okay with it, but its always better to make sure before even starting something like that.
fossil basalt
Itβs never fair to assume anything.
Itβs in writing or it isnβt
In the absence of it being in writing that βitβs okβ, it isnβt.
cinder ridge
Well now that not my problem really, hence why I wrote "its always better to make sure before even starting something like that".
And since it doesnt affect me I dont really care. Questions have been asked and I tried answering them, thats all.
willow star
IIRC the F03 in FO4 project actually stopped themselves, without any involvment from BGS
wild pollen
BGS was involved.
cinder ridge
Yeah cause BGS told them its a "grey area"
fossil basalt
It may not be your βproblemβ, but insinuating that itβs ok to do something that you have no concrete evidence of it being so, isnβt the best thing to do on this Discord and especially in the #ip_rights_violations channel.
wild pollen
They didnt want to upset BGS by continueing the project in a grey area so they cancelled it.
willow star
TTW did literally the same thing and no issues there
cinder ridge
"insinuating that itβs ok" <-- thats why I said "as far as I'm aware". And since I dont represent BGS in any way people should assume that it is not an official statement.
fossil basalt
If you have evidence from the company, great! Otherwise itβs hearsay and conjecture and sends people down the wrong path.
Just donβt do it.
wild pollen
TTW didnt recreate the games. Just allowed you to have one character in NV and 3
willow star
Yeah, using not only the voice acting but all other shit too
wild pollen
It never remade the games. It still the same 2 games.
TTW didnt remake 3 or NV in any capacity.
willow star
They're literally copying all the shit from your F03 folder to the NV folder and do some patching around
If you make everything from scratch you don't have to do that
The capital wasteland project literally would have just coppied the audio stuff with all the other stuff being made by them
wild pollen
Moving files around doesnt equal remaking the game. There making a mod thats not affiliated with BGS and using voice lines that im assuming BGS only has rights to use in any way.
If it was a mod for fo3 then i would assume thats ok. Since its a whole new thing for fo4 perhaps the voice lines are made only for fo3 and no other games
willow star
Yesh, the remaking part isn't the problem, since that the stuff BGS didn't make
TTW isn't a F03 mod, NV is a different game too and despite that they're using the audio files from F03
I mean they're using even more stuff than that
wild pollen
Well its pretty clear BGS is fine with TTW. Whatever Capital Wasteland in FO4 did they werent fine with
willow star
So using all assets in a newer game of the series is allowed, while using some assets in a newer game of the series isn't allowed?
wild pollen
Contact BGS about that. Noone here has any idea
wild stone
Perhaps we can get back to the topic in hand which is Arma3.
wild pollen
It was about a New Vegas mod in arma 3. Its still on topic about how BGS treats stuff like this
fossil basalt
No, not really. Permission or no permission.
wild pollen
ok then
olive sparrow
@proud flicker I'm actually on skype with Larry Liberty the producer of Fall out NV, in case you want to report any ripping direct to the source. He's a really nice guy though I'm sure he'd pass any IP infringements along to his legal counsel.
fervent needle
re: studios allowing older content of games to be used in newer ones, I love that BI did that for their games
a lot of good assets and good learning tools from the unbinned assets and information
proper charm
as far as I've looked into this, the terms from Zenimax specifically disallows ripped assets and allows derivative works as long as it's not monetized. However, Zenimax still retains the rights to shutdown the mod if they disagree with they disagree with how their works are potrayed.
fossil basalt
That is almost the de facto standard. If you make something almost indistinguishable from someone elseβs work, be prepared to be taken dow !
languid fog
That then begs the question of copying someone's work (copy paste) and/or using someone's work for inspiration (Reference it to make your own). So for example, say someone makes a 3d model Abrams, then someone uses that model as a reference to make their own from scratch
Theres so many Abrams models out there that theres going to be a quite a few similarities along the way
scenic swallow
Fini - Today at 7:58 AM I haven't really made any mods, I've done mostly scripts.
You mean A3 hax that you sell to the kiddies?
broken hornet
Well today was rather eventful it seems
proud flicker
@languid fog The differentiation must be made between your own copy right to work you made, and the various trade marks it is based on. Thats for example why HMMWVs were taken out of Squad, because the HMMWV is actually trademarked, and its trademarked heavily along all lisbon categories, so you cant even make HMMWV airfreshener, HMMWV crisps, anything really. They trademarked it everywhere for everything. π
So you do own the model of the humvee you made, but you cant really do anything commercial with it, if I understood the legal situation correctly.
For an M1A1 this does not hold true, since neither the desgination nor the shape is trademarked.
languid fog
@proud flicker So say a game company makes an M1A1, then you as an individual make an M1A1 using the companies model as reference to make your own from scratch... Is that still copying? Since there's no copyright on the M1A1, yet there is on the created 3d model of it?
I know if I'm correct with Australian copyright laws literally anything you make from scratch is instantly yours regardless if its the same or very similar to something else. I.e a company cant come after you because your M1A1 looks similar to our M1A1 for example
I know what I'm trying to say in my head but I cant for the life of me type it correctly, I'm hoping that makes sense.
I guess, they can copyright their model they made of the vehicle, but they cant copyright the vehicle itself (unless the vehicle is copyrighted)
I dont even know what the fuck I'm trying to say anymore haha
grand oyster
Trademarks only revolve around the name if I'm correct, so you'd have to name it different
proud flicker
So the basics: If you create a 3d Model of anything, that model is yours. You own 100% copyright to it. The toolmakers dont own it, the original designer of the model doesnt own it. its your work, its yours.
If you take a specific dataset and claim it is yours, then that is a breach of copyright or theft. This only occurs if you take for example some other game's model and claim it is yours, or even make changes to it.
Topographic map makers include fake streets in their maps to identify plagiarized/stolen work as their own, because the thief/violator cannot explain why that fake street exists and is identical to the rightful owner's map.
So in your example, if you model a 3d model after someone elses, its not a violation at all.
Its bad form, and not really a good artistic idea, but it doesnt bring any legal trouble.
fossil basalt
The toolmakers dont own it but they may place restrictions on it i.e. made with BI tools or making something with an educational license.
(moved mine down so that it didn't interrupt your post. )
proud flicker
Thats a good point, but that is a requirement/restriction you agree with before you start your work. An employment contract for a 3D artist will place similar restrictions to guarantee exclusivity to your work.
You'll have to adhere to it due to additional contract, but the copyright to the asset is still yours.
So its common for 3D artists in studios to transfer their copyright to the company right away as a requirement for employment.
@grand oyster you are correct, so I mixed it up a bit there. π
winged vapor
@proud flicker quick point re:Squad
they ahve taken out the hmmwv not because of AM general but the original creator
just happened to be at the same time AM General went nuts
proud flicker
Oh interesting, it all seemed to fit together because AM G was throwing a fit.
languid fog
@proud flicker That makes sense. Cheers for clearing that up
proud flicker
Another distinction has to be made when involving work of others. Simples example here is terrains for arma. The assets are Arma3 vanilla, but the composition of it together into a terrain is your work.
fervent needle
Couldnt for the hmmwv you do something like how GTA does it, not use the name of any realistic vehicle but have a similar look or style?
grand oyster
yep
but : they ahve taken out the hmmwv not because of AM general but the original creator
tawny sentinel
@winged vapor Did Squad ever get any formal legal action taken against them? Can't find much on Google.
winged vapor
no
tawny sentinel
Gotcha.
tawny sentinel
@proud flicker Appreciate the insight by the way, it is certainly a good explanation that distinguishes some of the naunces of what is considered 'your work'.
olive sparrow
the game companies i talk to have a common view on copyrights w.r.t. military equipment for example. so long as you dont copy the name or the logo of the manufacturer you are free to use the likeness of the equipment. military designations are allowed vs trademark names. For example M16 is fine but Colt M16 is not.
AH1 Cobra is fine but Bell AH1 Cobra is not
Regardless, some military equipment manufacturers have launched various high profile legal challenges (kalashnikov, Bell, Colt, HMWVV and several others) but s ofar none have been settled in public. There is no case law regarding this except for the use of likensses of people in say an NFL game.
So our reading of the current law of the jungle is: don't use trademarks, don't use models if you are unsure of the source, or don't have clear licenses to use them, if it was there in that military theatre, it is fine to represent it (much like a filmmaker would). You may still get challenged but most equipment IP owners won't wish to go through to a judgement (to protect the viability of any existing commercial arrangements they do have with game companies, which might be compromised if the judge found in favour of the "freedom of speech" arguments put forward by games developers when using real world items like movies do, to tell a story).
If you used the items for military training though, it might be handled differently, as this would step into the equipment manufacturers market, where they aggressively protect their rights to exploit their IP, as part of their normal business strategy.
for these various reasons (and i'm sure, some others) the waters are a little muddy when managing IP rights in computer games in relation to equipment manufacturers
however to answer the original point, if Luchador makes an M16, that's HIS m16.
if you want to use or adapt it you need a license from him.
but if he puts up pictures of how to make it, you can learn from it of course.
e.g. wireframes
pliant oar
i do remember case where some airplane manufacturer was blocking some WW2 plane type from IL-2:1946 ... it was so weirdly absurd
was like one which isn't 50 years manufactured (or longer)
olive sparrow
yeah I even saw Kalashnikov sponsored their own game, most likely so they could assert in a court that this was their business sector also, for example if pursuing Far Cry over its use of their weapons likeness.
however the yare unlikely t owin in these circumstances, as it would be argued to be "fair use" under "freedom of speech" rules in US courts
these are the rules which apply from i think the fourth amendment, (sorry im not an american), whereby a producer of a written or published work (i.e. game or movie) is free t oexpress their art without the hindrance of another party, so long as it isn't plagiarised (copied directly)
pliant oar
where EA games and Ubisoft won some such cases already, which makes it easier to win more
olive sparrow
ok. i wasn't aware of any wins, only "settled behind closed doors"
but i'm likely out of date
pliant oar
well, i will not put my hand into fire for the win cause it could be settled
olive sparrow
EA and Bell settled in secret
that lawsuit was a standard reaction of a giant arms company to one of its "partners" (EA games) changing their agreement and stopping paying Bell for use of the Cobra in BF.
so the yalready had a narrangement, and EA stopped it, so Bell, like it would do for any partner, sued them
once the suit spread t oa second district court in the US, there was a very strong risk it would be decided by supreme court
once that was decided, Bell and every other military manufacturer could lose all kinds of informal arrangements they have with hollywood and silicon valley
so a tthis point i imagine many arms company chiefs would have asked politely for Bell to settle before it was decided
and so it came about
leaving us small fry none the wiser
however BI, Ubisoft, and many other games companies have M16, RPG, AKM, SCAR, M134, PK and other guns in their games and are not sued by Kalashnikov, Colt, etc
It is still an emerging area of law, and nobody wants to be the loser of a big suit.
i think if it came down to a judgement, freedom of speech and fair use would be favoured by most courts, so long as the IP owner could not prove without any doubt that they had been economically or otherwise damaged as a result of the game.
flight sims and even driving games are a good example of where equipment companies blur the line in terms of their market.
if the ycan show that they produce a product in the games sector using their products exclusively, and generating an income, then they could argue damages to this business were caused by another game company using their products likeness
However arguing over an old jet - you won't see Mikoyan Gurevich suing EA for use of a Mig-29 in BF or some other game, but if you release a game called "Mig-29 Fulcrum" and it features identical cockpits and manuals and so on, well they might have a good case against you, especially if they have partnered in a similar game
it's still unlikely, but not impossible to be sued for this, as it is FOCUSSED on their product, TITLED after their product, and COMPETING with their game product.
anyway, that's my current understanding of games law and military IP. keen to hear any other takes on it.
proud flicker
From what I heard, as long as your product is not competing in their sector, there will be no issues.
If Colt now made a Colt Firearms game/simulator, future games could run into trouble.
blazing wyvern
in japan there is a law or something that made all game/movie makers in japan to use a workaround which also BI used in early stages π
proud flicker
The trademark situation is very clear and straightforward: You dont have the license to use the TM, then you dont have any of the brands in your product. With shapes this is entirely different.
Lego protected their minifigures, but the lego brick system they werent able to protect.
However, everything flies out of the window when it becomes a "matter of national security". DARWARS Ambush famously got away with ripped mods for the govt in early 2000s
echo orchid
in fact lego protected their brick system as well, but the patent thing expired hence there are so many "alternatives"
the figures came way later btw, different patent system
proud flicker
That might be why. I read that it was due to the minifigs being more complex and thus can be protected.
tawny sentinel
Speaking of DARWARS, is there any forum posts or anything like that giving a detailed account of what happened and what the response was? I've heard it be mentioned before, but haven't been able to dig anything up on it Mond.
proud flicker
No.
echo orchid
there is a pretty good docu series on netflix, i only seen a couple of episodes, one is about lego (big big fan, still buy a lot of technics)
olive sparrow
you should visit us here in UK pufu and go to Legloand UK
echo orchid
yeah, been to UK quite a few times, never been to legoland i'm afraid
well, russian just recently started to push on their trademarks quite recently, kalash is one that is trying hard to enforce their trademarks in other sectors like game as well
hence why they are sponsoring a game being developed
tawny sentinel
(Me imaging PuFu at Legoland certainly gives me a good laugh)
echo orchid
together with some other ru brands
oh yeah, i turn into a kid each time i play with lego
i still feel this is the best "toy" out there, and i have all the lego i have ever got when i was younger plus all the stuff i bought along the way
tawny sentinel
Yeah I certainly remember when I was younger, the amount of lego I had was absurd.
echo orchid
but back on the topic - for mods, you can ask most brands for permission to use their brands in a non-commercial way
tawny sentinel
Yes of course, my bad
echo orchid
most will most likely say yes if they ever give a reply
for commercial stuff, just use military names and do not include brands as much as possible
pretty simple
for modelling stuff using 3d referances, i for one had a used a lot of CAD data (90% was 2d dwg / svg files) from assembly, production process (mostly from US markets)
for my AKMs
dull moon
RE trademarks:
i remember a case of ICRC agains games who use the red cross symbol.
so it's not just the name, but also pictures and symbols that needs attention in games/modding
not sure how BI sattled it with the ICRC in arma 2, but afaik the red diamond is not restricted from use in games (used in A3)
tawny sentinel
Curious. I remember the red Crescent being used on some of the ARMA 2 vehicles for sure.
fervent needle
Thats good info on using the name but avoid brands
echo orchid
in short MK17 is military designation for SCAR H. Sure you will still have FN HERSTAL BELGIUM written on one side, but that could be excluded from your texturing process, especially if you want to avoid the trademark
mint edge
so firearm companies could just make 3D programs i.e. VR games or normal games which are very simple and would be able to hold up in court versus game studios using a weapon which is extremely simple to their own?
proud flicker
Doing so would give them a credible cause to sue for damages. But it will still need some clarification on how the shapes would be protected. With trademarks this is exactly the case already.
mint edge
yea
olive sparrow
it's an emerging area, but currently not much of a worry for most games developers.
jovial mica
How do you go about getting a mod removed from a server?
soft egret
Send them a email and tell them to remove it
dull moon
@jovial mica
What DM said
What mod and what server?
soft egret
DM :U π¨
jovial mica
PsiSyn's repo, ADM_Buildings.pbo
dull moon
Here it comes again... π
@soft egret
π
@jovial mica
send an email, contact them via steam or on their TS. if they do not apply, strike them. iirc the repo is hosted on GDrive, so no problem contacting the hoster (google)
soft egret
@jovial mica They are violating monetization rules if they have no permission to use that. Report them: https://www.bohemia.net/monetization/approved/arma3
will probably be the dozen'th report this week ^^
jovial mica
rip
dull moon
them? nah...
rest in purgatory, not peace π
thorn vector
Welp they actually deserve it after coming here, complaining about people complaining, like they could do whatever they want.
tawny sentinel
"We're a popular server for a dead game, so we can do whatever we want"
Paraphrased ofc
light smelt
How dare you suggest that our beloved twitch streamer does not have absolute power over any endeavours he partakes in.
soft egret
Well.. He cut himself loose of all responsibility for the server yesterday because he didn't have control over what was going on.. Sooo...
wild pollen
why is his name on it then
tawny sentinel
@soft egret Not quite sure it works that way lmao
soft egret
It does though. It was never really his server. Even according to older videos for him. He just collaborated with them in the sense that he allowed them to use his name and he then of course also promoted the server for that.
wild pollen
Maybe if hes not responsible he shouldnt have his name on it? I dont put my name on stuff im not responsible for
narrow topaz
My personal view on the matter of liability of an IP owner within the scope of Bohemia Monetization Rules is: If the server is paying the IP owner (via licensing fees, sharing of donations, or other remittances) for the use of the IP, the IP owner should be held liable for the torts of the server. Otherwise, you just end up with an IP owner having others start a server that violate BIS rules, makes money off of the violations, and starts a new server with a new "owner" once the current one is shut down. In the context of the current issue, every time "PsiSyn's Server" is shut down, a new one starts up with new owners.
olive sparrow
π
silent patrol
@narrow topaz That is completely made up, the PsiSyn server has never closed down and has never changed owners. You must be confusing it with ALRP
soft egret
Well PsiSyn stepped down yesterday.. Could call that "changed owners"
And they will most likely close down soon soo...
wild pollen
Doesnt really matter who owns it. The server is still breaking monetization rules and needs to be shutdown.
narrow topaz
My example was more a hypothetical using current events. Still possible for it to become reality, however. Same scenario would go for any "large name" streamer/Youtuber promoting a server and placing their name on it.
soft egret
I hope so atleast ^^
silent patrol
Honestly, I know lots of people that have already reported the PsiSyn server with much evidence and nothing has happened in weeks
Same thing that happened with ALRP
soft egret
My report atleast caused chaos and made PsiSyn step down.. so.. We'll see what happens next
burnt swallow
ok, hypothetical speaking if someone is try to say your breaking monetization by limiting content to a specific set of items like in milsim group, it BS right?
soft egret
Explain?
wild pollen
are you requiring them to pay money to access that content??
soft egret
Limiting content is not monetization unless you actually monetize
narrow topaz
You cannot limit access to assets unless there is a 1:1 equivalent assets not locked behind a paywall
burnt swallow
well lets say a unit is based in 1990s, they use only gear from that time, it doing by limiting with custom loadouts
soft egret
And you only get access to these by paying for it?
burnt swallow
no
silent patrol
??? lol
soft egret
That's not monetization then
wild pollen
you cannot break monetization rules if your not monetizing assests
soft egret
monetization rules only apply if you are a community that's approved for monetization
burnt swallow
ok just checking, helping out a friend that have some issue with his group
fossil basalt
Also, do you they have permission from the mod author?
burnt swallow
it not an issue with a mod author,as far as i know it just some guy having a hissy fit, cos he can't use a particular weapon due to said unit say they only use a what is given by the loadout scrip, my friend ask me to ask to clarify on here, cos he crap on about they break monetization rules
faint nacelle
so they have mission that is restricted to certain gear
faint nacelle
yes
burnt swallow
thank for sort of clarify what i knew, i am helping out a friend
astral marlin
regarding psisyn he took out the bis monetization contact so he is responsible for all that goes on under that licenced agreement. He is just trying to protect his network
olive sparrow
registered monetizers found to be hosting mods without permission should be struck off for 6 months. that would be an incentive for them to check their content
fossil basalt
Registered monetisers found to be hosting mods without permission should be taken to court for fraud.
echo orchid
^^
grand oyster
@scarlet osprey π
dull moon
Registered monetisers found to be hosting mods without permission should be burned on a pyre.
snow bloom
Just been handed a mod that consists of ripped DayZ SA assets
Straight to infringements? Or is there a more suitable place to report it
wild stone
@snow bloom i would report it asap
snow bloom
Thereβs one reason Iβm holding back, the guy who sent me it says heβs got more, from not just DayZ
I think Medal of Honor was another he listed
wild stone
@snow bloom Why are you holding back? Just report them
safe arrow
But DayZ is within BIs range to do something against it. MoH etc comes second as its another companies problem (mainly)
snow bloom
The only thing is, if I wait and get the rest, BI will know where a lot more ripped content is coming from, why just deal with one guy when they can get a few others doing the same?
If you donβt see the logic there, Iβll go ahead and report the 1 guy know
safe arrow
Well you can just tell BI that more is coming from other games. This way they can already start their work on DayZ and wait to take action, until you send them the rest.
snow bloom
Fair enough, letβs just hope the guys donβt figure out itβs me reporting lol
safe arrow
If no action is taken (yet), how should he even be aware of beeing reported
snow bloom
Not yet like, but when I do send the email (currently writing)
mint edge
you shouldn't even write about it in public until your ready to report someone in that instant
imo
dull moon
if anyone want's to add something to it...
https://www.reddit.com/r/arma/comments/8tf968/custom_modpack_questions/?st=jiszn67n&sh=bb48e14c
fossil basalt
Itβs in the channel description infringements@bistudio.com
mint edge
Chris you act as if more people telling him no will ACTUALLY stop him from doing it xd
soft egret
someone even downvoted chris' post π
dull moon
Chris you act as if more people telling him no will ACTUALLY stop him from doing it xd
i think the military term would be "show of force" π
fervent needle
A lot of people could just have no clue or be dumb π it probably helps a few
The others get their toys taken away
mint edge
no common sense
dusk dew
Seems the guy on the reddit thread just doesn't know what he's doing, saying he has no common sense is a little extreme
dull moon
he's refering to a video from 2013, he clearly has no clue what he's doing
grand oyster
Didn't he voluntarily say he has no idea?
In fairness, well done to him trying to learn but not so well done for wanting to throw mods together for a mega modpack
olive sparrow
if only you could kill through the internet... sigh.
but then i'd probably be dead already
mint edge
your right
common sense is not common
so I should have just assumed so from the start
instead of stating it
dusk dew
:/
snow bloom
Agreed. However one thing I donβt like about steam is lack of version control (if someone can debunk let me know). Because of the workshop mods updating on their own, server owners may forget to update their server mods because they werenβt aware of the updates. Thatβs just my qualms but I usually use Arma 3 Sync for mod synchronisation
agile gyro
Hmmmm so mainly synchronisation issues after updates gotcha thanks.
soft egret
Yeah correct. But I'm planning to just create multiple items per version and have one that auto updates. As Steam doesn't limit how many reuploads you can have of your own stuff
Most people will just subscribe to the auto updating one. And if people want older versions they can do so. I don't need to maintain older versions so not that much effort for me in the long run
rather.. Less effort for me in the long run because less stupid illegal reuploads
agile gyro
So whats the general consensus on paid models from places like cgtrader and turbosquid in modpacks. I have some but am only slowly getting my head around a workflow for getting them in game.
snow bloom
Thatβs perhaps something I miss about withSIX, version control was pretty good when I used it
It depends, weβve recently just seen VSM close down his mod/get closed down. You neeed to be 100% certain they ainβt from another game and you have all the relevant permissions
fossil basalt
Regarding βpaidβ models. Be prepared to not use them if theyβve been found to have come from somewhere they shouldnβt have.
agile gyro
Yeah been looking at that. He did accept some donated ones I think?
snow bloom
He bought all/most of his models on the likes of CG trader and turbo squid I believe
agile gyro
If you purchase yourself from the site you'd be fairly safe that they a sweet IP related right??
snow bloom
May be wrong however
fossil basalt
Also, be sure to check the licenses of the legit ones (Royalty Free)
agile gyro
cpy on royalty free ones.
fossil basalt
If you buy from the likes of turbosquid and itβs been found to come from BF4 (for example) ask for a refund.
agile gyro
It's just long enough sorting out the friggin workflow to get in game ...\
fossil basalt
Thatβs why the best ones are made from scratch and follow the proper workflow from beginning to end.
agile gyro
Rg if that happened then the site would be up for investigation for distributing stolen content right?
fossil basalt
Potentially.
agile gyro
hmmm cheers.
fossil basalt
But as is the case with VSM, the thread has been locked until the situation is resolved.
snow bloom
But unfortunately, sites like turbosquid are notorious for having stolen content, hell I think Iβve even seen some A2 assets in the past
faint nacelle
Id say none of those sites do any internal content checking
snow bloom
^^
faint nacelle
they just enjoy the revenues and respond to reported content
fossil basalt
At the end of the day, the βporterβ is left holding the bag when itβs found to be ripped.
faint nacelle
yeh
which is why its adviceable to discuss the models you are about to buy with the community
more eyes to spot if its legit
agile gyro
Hmmmm too late lols.
fossil basalt
Itβs sub-optimal for all involved, which is why itβs not very prevalent.
faint nacelle
you still could share the links and we could take a peek
fossil basalt
Anyway, lunch is over, back to the SOC and phone off.
faint nacelle
π
blazing wyvern
bought? π
agile gyro
yeah, well disposable income baby! π
blazing wyvern
nice , i like Luchadors work
agile gyro
Just looking at their work helps me refine my own feeble attempls lols.
So if I stick with high profile names should be good?
drifting scaffold
Luchador should be legit as Unsung gets some of their models from there
blazing wyvern
yeah , best known ones too
agile gyro
cool, thanks for the feedback.
blazing wyvern
as youtube/twitter would says it "verified" π
agile gyro
hahaha!
faint nacelle
buying from a more known source is definitely more safe
agile gyro
It's only the start of a long process that scares me to be honest lols a lot to get me head around...
keen trout
@soft egret sounds like a great solution, especially for bigger events
If updates are released near the start of it attendents always have different versions
dull moon
RE updates n stuff:
We could announce thursday arma's offical mod update day. So every Server admin knows he has work to do for fridays events
π€·
keen trout
π
Thursday is good day, any hotfixes can be done, tested and released during the weekend
dull moon
Exactly π
echo orchid
regarding VSM, pretty sure not all of that is bought, and none of it is made by the bloke himself
and lol on that comment that maybe it was modeled using BF4 as ref - yeah and the normals map resulting is 100% the same
dull moon
what is VSM?
blazing wyvern
well so far only that G3 uniform was "illegal"
desert sparrow
