#74-gun Ships of the Line

33 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

icy flume
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As is well known, 74-gun "third rate" ships of the line made up the a massive portion of rated fighting ships during the age of sail.

In its current state, the game is somewhat lacking in representation of such vessels. We have HMS Bellona, Azov, Redoutable, and Montañés, but all of these deviate heavily from their namesakes and none are particularly "authentic" representations of the typical 74-gun ship.

What I mean by that:

  • HMS Bellona is the closest thing we have to a "standard" 74-gun ship, but she is under-gunned, missing four cannons typically carried on the forecastle. #1479586336804438157 message
  • Azov, by contrast, is massively over-gunned with 10 (formerly 12) extra guns. Eight of these are mounted in the stern despite the real ship having only two gunports below the gallery.
  • Redoutable is also over-gunned with an extra 12 cannons that she did not carry in real life. In addition, the ship is positioned as a tier II heavy which isolates her from the aforementioned Azov and HMS Bellona. As a 74-gun Téméraire-class, Redoutable's position is made even more odd by the inclusion of the much larger and heavier Sans-Pareil, an 80-gun Tonnant-class, as a lesser-armed, lighter vessel at the same tier.
  • Montañés is just as over-gunned as Redoutable and, like the latter, is positioned at tier II in the game. She also has Azov-style ahistorical extra gunports below her gallery. Given the ship's historical reputation for speed, it seems especially odd that, like Redoutable, she is heavier and slower than the Tonnant-class Sans Pareil.
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What I'm proposing:

Rather than suggesting sweeping changes be made to the existing ship lineup (aside from buffing the Bellona), I'd instead like to simply recommend that more 74-gun ships be added as "Tier III" ships in the game. Having a larger variety of similar- but still distinct- options not only gives players more to work towards, but reduces the persistence of "meta" options, thus increasing flexibility and ship diversity in PVP. It would also be nice if these new ships covered all of the factions in the game so that there is a stronger incentive (lower production cost) to actually build and use the ships associated with a given faction.

maiden ravine
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Very much agree... Redoutable placement as T2 Heavy is super strange, even for nearly completely non-historical game like this... For her I could see even replacement (not sure how would it work with compensation for players who already have it) maybe for some "smaller" three-decker... But adding more "74" would also be probably working solution

sly harbor
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real gun counts don't really matter in a game where you are allowed to put heaviest possible guns on top decks. a real ship would flip over with a loadout like that

icy flume
icy flume
sly harbor
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I'd settle for each nation having its own tech tree 😉

icy flume
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Having that incentive is exactly what I'm going for though since building a third rate of your own faction means you're getting the shipyard discount

sly harbor
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oh no if we let pirates sail 1st rates everyone should sail everything. I guess build prices are faction discounted

icy flume
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Here's a rough concept for what I'm proposing. These ships are all fairly close in stats, but all have a slight "flavor" that fits with the theme of the real-life counterpart and/or leans into a historically-based playstyle.

HMS Bellona is the baseline. I've added her missing four guns, reduced tonnage, reduced maneuverability, and slightly increased health for this example to solidify her position as a "normal" line-of-battle ship for the tier.

Azov, obviously, is less survivable than the others but enjoys immense bow/stern firepower and agility.

USS Franklin, by contrast, has the best broadside firepower. Despite being quite heavy, Franklin was known for being a great sailor, so I opted to reduce durability as compensation rather than reducing agility.

Pluton, a Téméraire-class, was made shorter in length and lighter in weight than the original design. This, in turn, allowed ships of her configuration to be built in shallower shipyards. Given the Redoutable, one of the original Téméraire-class, is already in the game as a tier II, I figure a petit modèle of the same ship would fit perfectly at tier III. The ship's low displacement is represented through strong agility at the slight expense of survivability.

icy flume
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HMS Thunderer was a Culloden-class ship, both larger and more modern than HMS Bellona. To reflect this, armor and maneuverability are emphasized at the expense of the broadside firepower. The increased agility, in theory, makes her bow/stern guns a bit more useful and the durability is reduced to compensate for the extra armor.

Moskva was a Yaroslav-class ship. She spent much of her service on blockade duty, so to give her a unique flair and solidify her as a stepping stone to the Dvienadsat Apostolov, the ship has the highest armor value of the bunch.

San Juan Nepomuceno was launched in 1765 but is best known for her participation in the Battle of Trafalgar in 1805, wherein the ship offered stout resistance while surrounded by half a dozen enemy ships. Despite substantial damage, the ship was captured and entered service in the Royal Navy within a year, albeit initially not in a combat role. To reflect her famous survivability, large size, high tonnage, and the general tendency of Spanish ships built in the 1760s to be slower than English counterparts, the San Juan Nepomuceno is suggested here as the slowest but most durable option.

Obviously these are just examples of things that could be done to differentiate ships and the stats given are only meant to serve as an example (they are probably not well-balanced).

Note that this lineup example gives the three base "factions" at least two options. I'll write dedicated threads for the ships here that I haven't gotten around to yet.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1026717510579519490/1492411888259174450/image.png?ex=69db3c61&is=69d9eae1&hm=361cd189d71b0bf135261ce67a62fa6cb5476ef46cd6b762779df7db72a7faaa&

icy flume
# maiden ravine Very much agree... Redoutable placement as T2 Heavy is super strange, even for n...

I neglected to respond to your idea about replacement.

I could see it working, to be frank. The model is a very nice, faithful representation of the ship, it's just overgunned with extra cannons on the forecastle and quarterdeck. The model could theoretically be moved to tier III and the tier II replaced with something a bit more fitting of the "heavy" role at that tier.

Both the French and Spanish built numerous two-decker ships of 80-90 guns. The Sans-Pareil is an obvious example, but is already in the game. Perhaps the Spanish Neptuno or Argonauta? If we include the smallest of guns, at Trafalgar they carried 84 and 90 guns, respectively- so not a big change from the 86 that "Redoutable" currently carries in-game.

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Alternatively, Sans-Pareil could be moved to the "heavy" line and another ship put into the "combat" line at tier II. At this point it would mostly just be a cosmetic/name change.

maiden ravine
maiden ravine
icy flume
icy flume
shadow jay
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imo, remove the huracan from the game and make third rates and 2nd rates more viable in open water battles, as it was back then with them being the backbone of a fleet

The biggest ships in the game should be a Santi, L'Ocean, and the Victory

Also their were plenty of other first rates/second rates like the Trinity, Prince, etc

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their was so many ships the game can add without making up some ridicilious ship

icy flume
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I'd certainly like the huracan to be nerfed but if we're being honest there is no way it will ever be outright removed.

I do wish that the "tiers" of the game were a bit more realistic in some cases, but the "class" system (fast/combat/heavy/siege/transport) almost certainly isn't going anywhere so I figure we can at least aim for variety by adding more ships to existing tiers

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For example, the Sans Pareil sits at "tier II" as a "combat" ship. I figure another Tonnant-class or a similar ship (such as Bucentaure) could simultaneously sit as a "heavy" in "tier III"

Similarly, I imagine a 74-gun ship of the line like Bellerophon could fit well as the "tier I" of the "fast" line.
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maiden ravine
icy flume
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Duke of Kent as a craftable alternative, even if it's not as strong, would be nice.... and yes I know technically you can craft huracans but let's be reasonable 😄

maiden ravine
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Honestly I'm nearly sure DoK will happen sooner or later; with Huracan existing there is nothing to stop them because of too much power/size

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But it felt more like joke when I reacted on post before about ridiculous ships

icy flume
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Probably, but if I'm honest I'd like to see some more non-silly ships first so that every port battle isn't just a swarm of apostolovs. Regarding tier Is, I've already made threads for USS Independence, HMS Bellerophon, USS North Carolina, Océan, and USS Pennsylvania. I'm planning to do one for Principe de Asturias and maybe HMS Caledonia but haven't had the time to flesh them out yet

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Part of what I struggle with when writing these is finding ways to balance them while keeping them authentic. Something like a Culloden-class 74-gun ship is frankly a straight upgrade in all respects to a Bellona-class, but they need to be balanced to each other to work in the game. That's part of why I haven't done the HMS Caledonia yet; It ought to be durable like the Apostolov on paper, but the ship was also a superb sailor for it's size.

maiden ravine
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That will probably always be a problem... With how long age of sails lasted and how much the ships evolved; when at the same time they kind of stayed similar (if it makes sense) - at least for the games where they are reduced to few numbers and few tiers; and they can have all the same guns. Maybe those modern 74 would really need to be T2 battle and those older T3 🤔

icy flume
icy flume
# icy flume

Part of the reasoning for proposing Pluton was because Redoutable is already a “tier II” and adding an identical Temeraire-class a tier lower with different stats would be a bit odd. The Pluton at least has some plainly-visible differences.

maiden ravine