The central pvp only area is frustrating for pve players.

[solemn ore]

it's frustrating, but it does actually give incentives for ppl to go pve trade union guild because they can build 1 rate higher with trade missions etc.

It's a nice idea though

[wooden kite]

I don’t think it will encourage them to join — it will just make them stay in a small area or even stop playing, because some players really don’t enjoy PVP at all.
It would be better to give them the choice instead of forcing it. Also, on the right side of the map, big ships can’t move much because the water is too shallow.
So players who don’t want PVP are basically stuck.

[solemn ore]

the zones without pvp is huge actually at southwest but yeah, its like a third of map is forced pvp

[wooden kite]

Yeah, I get that.To reach the far west, you have to go all the way around the top or bottom — and if the wind is against you, it’s even worse.
It just feels frustrating not being able to sail freely across the map.

[umbral rapids]

Should be 80% and 20% kept as a demo 😄

[gloomy owl]

or, just group up with more players. so you have a better chance. theres nothing in there a pve player cant trade for or risk getting with an empty hold. its like the DD in desert, if you cave to hard to the pve voices, your pvp guys will just leave.

[wooden kite]

I get your point — but that’s exactly why the PVP flag system would be much better.
It gives players the choice to play how they want, without forcing either PVP or PVE.
That way, everyone can enjoy the game in their own way

[gloomy owl]

except, when youre overloaded, youre forced into a false flag state.
like, i kinda get it, if you dont like fighting players, but at the same time, you face next to no losses when you get sunk if your hold is empty.
now, the game does have two pvp zones, endless sea and the area around tortuga.
the pvp zone around tortuga is integral to the pvp bloodline, because that area will be very valuable to any guilds trying to take it .
conceptually i get where youre coming form, i just think it would be a really bad idea to take away that zone

[wooden kite]

I totally get that, and I’m not saying to remove PVP — it’s an important part of the game.
I just think it would be better if players could choose when to take part, or if the main PVP area was in a corner instead of right in the middle.
That way, guilds can still fight for control, but PVE players can explore freely too

"I understand the importance of the PvP zones, but the problem is that when players feel forced into a playstyle they don't enjoy, they usually just stop playing instead of adapting. That's not good for the game's long-term health. Having an optional PvP flag or moving the zone to the edge would let everyone enjoy the game their own way."

[gloomy owl]

i guess sailing around it would be a huge pain. but youre not living in the west without being in a big guild anyway

[plain furnace]

Make a patrol convoy that travels through the middle and can be protection for
Those who wish to go through the middle with some protection

[wide mason]

if its frustrating for PVE players, then don t go there. Very simple...the rest of the map is big enough for Carebears. This is a high risk high reward zone, if you dont want to loose things, dont go there. And even when...this game is absolut not taking everything if you get smashed. Take it with honor and try it again...

[solemn ore]

I mean true
Southwest of map has similar difficulty and almost same yield

[wooden kite]

You call others Carebears, but it’s funny how some PvP players can’t stand the idea of optional PvP.
If your fun depends on forcing others into fights, maybe the challenge isn’t as “high skill” as you think.

It’s always funny seeing people act like PvP heroes on a sailing game.
Calling others “Carebears” doesn’t make you better — it just shows you can’t handle that some players enjoy different parts of the game.
If your skill only shines when others are forced to fight you, maybe it’s not that impressive after all.

[silent heron]

The central area is pvp only and has always been pvp only. PvE players have all the map except center and endless sea anyways. Besides you think that in PvP circle any player you see is going to sink you. In a game sinking doesn't cost anything besides few resources. PvP is controlled by me and my allies and the opposie side of the samre circle is a rival guild. We are both military factions and we don't get anything from sinking random players. We even get minus points which effects our standing in guild. Only players you gotta be worried about are pirate players who will attack you regardless.

So PvP players who are in military guild don't care about randoms without guilds or trade union players. They do PvP against other enemy guilds. If you are an enemy guild for one of them thats a different story. But what you try to convey is pointless. Most pvp player don't attack randoms anyways.

[potent plume]

Bro if you don’t like pvp go play Minecraft all Americans do is complain

[umbral rapids]

Indeed!

[wooden kite]

Ah yes, the classic “go play Minecraft” argument. Truly the peak of strategic thinking.

Funny how some people talk about PvP like it’s an eSport. Calm down, it’s boats, not battlefield. 👀

[potent plume]

Bro this game clearly isn’t for you just go play something else instead of complaining and having stupid ideas to ruin the game

[wooden kite]

Imagine thinking people asking for more ways to play are “ruining the game.” Touch some water, captain.🫡

[umbral rapids]

It's all about risk and reward, if you cannot fight for yourself and dominate the others in the best area, then move to npvp camps, simple

[muted cypress]

Trade Union Sailor here. I personally love the center of the map being PvP. I’ve got multiple ships with different set ups for this exact reason. Like people have said, risk vs reward. Also some of my funnest trade runs have been through the center.

[vast trout]

This type of post is what ruined the PvP in Dune awakening, PvE only players got their way and killed the end game.
This game has a really nice balance so far between PvE and PvP

[lean harness]

I think people who pve doesnt hate pvp, they just hate losing at pvp. Ideally you wouldn’t want to entirely separate pvp from pve but let ppl who pve bring their skill set and play style to contribute to them winning. The ability to build cheaper ships is a good way to do this, maybe also let trade union ppl to also capture more ai ships. The idea is to diversify ways people can win, so that everyone can bring their play style into the over all game

[solemn ore]

ppl already abused trade union, some uses them to open pvp or even to abuse them in rigged port battles
in fact, i think trade union should lose ability to open pvp and have permanent peace traety instead, saves half issues about open pvp atm

[lean harness]

Wow that’s kinda extreme, idk about that

If trade unions are abusing a specific mechanic maybe fix that mechanic, idk if just across the board removing trade unions from a big chunk of the game is a good solution. What is this abuse ur talking about is it still in the game?

[solemn ore]

you cannot fix it without removing pvp from trade union, or that's what i thought
the abuse: intentionally throws themselves in fight between military and pirate, helping pirate by becoming meatshields
military attack = loses reputation instead of gaining
get enough reputation hit = get kicked off guild

[lean harness]

Lmao that’s funny af, that’s like insurance fraud. If rep is a problem just remove the rep penalty lol

Or maybe I’m not understanding how important the rep system is. I feel like the rep gain and loss from OW pvp seems to be a mostly isolated system

It seems the game is forcing the narrative that military is friend of trade union, but players are treating trade union as a separate 3rd faction and this is where the problem is I think

[solemn ore]

then military has no reason not to hit traders, and there's no difference between military and pirate to unions
unions gets no benefit at all and even have to pay extra fees

[solemn ore]

which would work if you remove pvp from unions. You joined the traders, there shouldn't be even pvp to begin with. saves hassle of it being abused, having harassed by other guilds while having 0 power and no merit aside of crafting discounts.

simple and effective and give traders something unique to be with, a permanent peaceflag

[lean harness]

Yeah maybe but I think a simpler solution is just let military suffer no rep penalty from sinking trade union ships

[solemn ore]

it just make unions get targetted, treated no different than pirates, except they carry tons of goods
now union arent even safe from military and pirates and always have problem building ships, military would defend their kin, but union has none

[lean harness]

I’m not sure if that would always be true. I mean peace flag is a good way to transport goods? Trade union has players too they should be able to defend themselves

[solemn ore]

because union indeed 3rd faction, it doesn't spell which faction they are helping, but according to game it should be military
yet we see rogue unions that helps pirate, with no expulsion mechanic at all and become pirate spy

[solemn ore]

nah, as a trade union leader, this is untrue
you mostly have 2-3 people in your group, you get ganged by 6-7 as you go to pvp zone from pirates alone
military chime in and adds about 12
usually, those military fends off pirate for you, letting you slip
now you have to fight those 18 ppl with 3

doesn't work, and military now has no reason to protect you, but drown you and take your good loot because you have tons, why not? there's not even a penalty. even rep penalty didn't stop several military not to attack unions because compared to several rep loss, 400k-1m cash is more "beneficial". sometimes 3m+

[lean harness]

Yeah idk but ok. I think our experience is a little different in a trade union. We sometimes fight pirates sometimes military, if we get rep pen we just top it up with missions, and there would be like 9 of us.

[solemn ore]

the best way to deal with this is that to make union permanently peaceflagged. you cannot exploit the rep system because you are shoot through and see through, and it solves the union being powerless without no ppl to defend.

[lean harness]

Im gonna have to disagree with that. Sry, I don’t think any faction owes another faction protection, and vice versa. Everyone should be able to play the game and choose how they think they can win. If rep pen is an issue, then removing it should work. If mil hunts traders then so be it, I don’t see why traders must go into pvp zone with 2 ppl carrying tons of cargo. And why they can’t muster up more ppl to go into pvp zones together. What you suggest I must disagree.

[solemn ore]

The thing is
Trader perk are tied to military
Military can have their town boosted and trader can build cheaper ship in military

Reason of the rep penalty was that to disencourage military to hit traders because they are supposed to be allied, and you, as a trader, need 33 rep to military as whole 25 ppl rep to switch to military

Without military trying to protect then union just gonna stuck as a faction nobody wants, and nobody joins military because they are asked to convert to union first before converting to military

The point was: union support military
Military protect union

But it gets abused

[lean harness]

The dynamic you are suggesting should emerge dynamically through game play. Not forced mechanics. I think traders working with pirates is one such dynamic but unfortunately doesn’t appeal to the story line of the game. I think Taking traders out of the game is a big step back to enforce a non game play narrative

[solemn ore]

trader is a good chunk of pve players who want to play the game without pvp. without trading guild, building 1st rate would be harder, as it needs more materials and you need to grind rep to a faction to actually build anything outside of pvp area

so yeah, disabling their pvp is the way to go here

[lean harness]

just don’t go into the circle then why do we all must play the way you want to play traders?

[solemn ore]

Do this and you gonna see tons of ppl quit

To get economy going you need mines inside pvp circle

And why you should delete a faction just to fix an issue? That just removes playerbase off the game

Just make neutral a real neutral with no hindrance to anyone doing pvp, that's what they should do

[pulsar moat]

The only thing that I hate about the central pvp area is when you are a pve player looking for pirate treasure or merchant supplies and the game forces you to go into the pvp zone. I don't think pvp area should be removed but they do gotta fix that issue.

[teal bridge]

If you sit in a corner of the map when you open a merchant/pirate map, you can basically avoid them spawning in the mid circle. The distance around you is allegedly ~5k distance units.

Since the water danger level also influences loot wuality, I assume the best spot to open the maps is down by the Khalifat ports. Also you can go with high rate ships there for max cargo capacity and can run peace flags all the time.

On a side note: the announcements hint on the circle getting removed anyway.

[pulsar moat]

oh nice I didnt know this so thanks

[teal bridge]

Pls keep in mind, that map opening stuff is all derived from information I gathered in in-game chat and on this Discord server. Nothing of that is official afaik, so no guarantee that it actually behaves that way.

[teal bridge]

But of all the maps I opened down in the south-east corner of the map and none spawned further away than the Devios-Sharhat line

[untold socket]

As we recently discovered, you do not need to be in TU to build 1 rate higher. A non Guilded Player can do it with 100 Reputation to that Faction same for Military Faction Players.

So joining TU actually seems to remove that prinviledge and forcing you to establish a trade Mission.. You are punished by joining TU it seems.

[teal bridge]

As a player without allegiance to any guild/faction:
80 reputation is enough to get "one-up" in shipbuilding possibility for ports of the respective faction. 100 is not needed.

[untold socket]

Yes 80, I keep saying 100, but it is 80 in reality. Which is even easier, so why even consider TU or consider that this is somehow an advantage of TU? It is not.

[teal bridge]

Personally, I also only detected negatives so far for joining a TU guild (increased mooring fee, as cargo worth is added into the mix).

And since I'm not really keen on doing (or even getting forced into) PvP, a military faction or even pirates are out of the game too. Guess out flotilla will stay outside of all that for the time being.

[untold socket]

Actually it gets better! You can have Peace Flags in a Military Guild! So....provided they accept non PvP members you should be good to go (my Guild does accept all kinds of players because we are Laid back and fun oriented not here to prove anything), but I am sure there can be others.

TU does not even have an advantage for PVE, you can PVE with Peace Flags in Military Factions too. Only Pirates cannot (they can only use Peace flag with 7 rated ships).

We are in TU right now but we decided to go one of the Military Factions as it stands, at least the PvP oriented members will be able to partake in Port Battles.

It is really Win-Win.

Will wait for the next Update to see the new Dynamics and go form there. Maybe Military Factions will no longer be able to have Peace flags, who knows!

[solemn ore]

it let people just build the ship without doing any rep, which does actually help
sure you can build it with rep alone but the 12% discount difference is huge

[solemn ore]

that was added because there was no negative joining a TU, i mean building ship 12% cheaper and guns 25% cheaper than what people could is a gamechanging

plus one our member literally abused bribery mechanic (allowed by the game) to get hundreds of beam OUT of a single vodoo skull 🤣

[winter bloom]

Yeah, this is good game design, need to make the rewards greater for pvp, no reason for peace flags to ever exist, decoy, ok, peace no

[torn flame]

i think we should shrink the pvp zone to just around center island and make it more like a king of the hill arena and pve players can watch battles from edge of ring maybe set it up like a better version of skermishes and make it a perm skermish area where longer you stay in ring better your rewards

[hallow imp]

Different when you get jumped by 5 clan members or while you are in a large NPC battle, the pvp system should have negative consequences for just killing people without cause. The little black flag emblem on the map don't cut it. They should have a cool down before they can enter a normal port again for pirating.

[versed trail]

Just remove peace flags

[teal bridge]

So the griefers with more playing experience and better equipment can freely gang um on the new players, farming them right off their starting port? What a way to ruin the game by driving away all new players ....

[versed trail]

With all the whining here about the pvp circle I have to counter complain about the peace flag. And I am fairly new. I started last month. Still mostly use black flag this days

[teal bridge]

Congratulations to your personal descision.
Still, removing the apparent only protection mechanism for new players and PvE focused players from PvP griefers is an absolutely horrible idea

[solemn ore]

pve players are basically core of most games
even sea of thieves gave up and added a new mode for pve players

So yeah at least half if not more ppl going to be gone with peaceflag being removed

[winter bloom]

Makes the rewards larger to fly pvp, but it's easy to sail around the circle, I means the line warns you when you get close. Quit whining and sail around, I mean you are playing a farming game then, enjoy sailing around, it's all you do so why are you complaining?

[untold socket]

But people in TU cannot build the ship without the Mission even if the have 80+ Rep. Why do TU members lose the ability to build a rate +1 even if they have the Rep requirements? I don't get the logic.

[untold socket]

The game needs many changes if you want to remove peace flags. Super ships have to go.

Balancing all over the place is required.

Losing Money when Boarded should go.

Cargo Lost should not be 40% but 5 %...

It will be Open Season on everyone, you will eliminate more than half the population of the game.

I have seen my share of Games being destroyed by such careless PvP decision.

[versed trail]

https://tenor.com/view/oh-no-top-gear-jeremy-clarkson-no-one-cares-gif-18925814

[untold socket]

Yeah rage all you want with memes buddy...ain't happening. I do not think the Devs want to lose a profitable game now that it is picking up.

[teal bridge]

Thank you for that. Couldn't have put it better.

[winter bloom]

If you have the right perks, it's only 12% loss, and most ships are decently balanced. It's the numbers of players per side or you are attacked by that is not balanced. You don't lose that much money either, store it in chests. Its what smart people do. I have seen more games destroyed by farming Sims than pvp. Also still super easy to sail around the circle...

[main walrus]

I've played non-stop since starting this game 4 days ago, and ran black flag straight off the bat. The extra loot, xp, and the reality of piracy on the high seas is the essence of the game. I've been highjacked once already while shipping cargo which is the name of the game.

[junior parrot]

Just get good man, or avoid the center entirely.

[untold socket]

Storing money in Chests is not practical when you are progressing, this is only good for Advanced people. I need my liquidity I need to be able to buy and sell stuff in the Markets etc, I cannot run around converting Chests and Back every time I need to buy and sell something now, and losing on conversion fees too.

So this is a perspective people miss because you look at the game from your present reality, and forget the journey that got you there and the amount of people still on it who cannot just "Do this and that and your good to go".

You say if you have the right perks, who Has the right perks when they join the game? And who has the right perks while they are leveling to etc etc.

We cannot assume that everyone plays like ourselves and establish the bar at that level. You have to be able to account for much variation which will be affected by such changes and that is why balancing and changes are required. Otherwise you narrow the flexibility and diversity of the gameplay to only those who have everything in place.

And that my friend is a minority.

[untold socket]

Good for you, you have nothing to lose in the first 4 days. The game is not only about Piracy and Pirates. There is Military Play Port Battles etc and there is PVE and Merchant Play Trade and Crafting which is played usually by people who do not like to PvP, an these require a time to develop an economy etc and you cannot be losing your cargo and money every time you sail around.

You cannot force them to PvP, you can only oust them from the game. And then the Game will be devoid of people and feel like an abandoned virtual world which will become uninteresting to you too to the PvPer and the PVPer will also look elsewhere after that.

An MMO needs all kinds of players and play styles to Flourish just like the real world.

The real world was Never made only of Pirates, and also because we are Humans and Humans are social Creatures in the Majority. Consensual PvP is what works, especially if there is Loss.

[untold socket]

I am good, at building an Economy at Trading, at making money, at PvE, at grouping, at socializing, at making friends, and being nice, at helping others, at Having Fun...

Not everyone has to be good in PvP ...and being good is very relative, that is the whole point. Especially since not everyone needs to prove anything to anyone else. I could not care less if you think I am bad at PvP.

What I care about is the game's capacity to provide you and me fun in our respective play styles.

You are advocating to shoebox everyone in to one style of play. That is a bad solution.

Now, the center is going away. Lets see what comes instead and take it from there no need to further antagonize 🙂

[winter bloom]

You only need like 100 to 300k in your purse to trade, it's not hard nor time consuming, that's only 5 to 15k if boarded and that's nothing once you get a r5 trader and make some runs....a lot of complaining about nothing, just misguided stupidity

[untold socket]

You talking about NPC trading you forget about Auction House? What if I want to buy a Ship that costs 4 Million? Or Fragments or Cannons 50k a piece?

And even 15k why give it to you?

[winter bloom]

Then you pull it out and fast travel....and if you have 4 million, you don't even notice 15k, like at all

[untold socket]

I prefer Having 4 million and sailing in Peace flag..much less hassle.

[winter bloom]

Dude you just need a phone farming Sim, any serious game is not for you

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.zynga.farmville3

Found it, no risk. No pvp, no excitement. Try it

[untold socket]

Dude, I think you just need to mind your own game and let people play as they wish and have fun. Don;t be so close minded and limited. There is not only one play style and way to play and have fun in a game. Your being a 🤡

[winter bloom]

Dude, I think you need to mind your own farm game and let us play and have fun pvp in the middle. Don't be so close minded and wimpy. There is more than one way to sail around a circle. Your being a 💩 🤡

[untold socket]

haha, QQ more.

[winter bloom]

I'm not, your the one whining about pvp and having to sail around more, which is why you like the game any way, so the circle making you spend more time aimlessly sailing should make you happy. Your logic is just as bad your comback.....pathetic

[untold socket]

I am not whining at all. I am expressing my play style and preference. Your the one that has an issue with it and crying about it so Ya QQ more, because it ain't happening buddy. It is my game my money my time I play it as I wish and you play yours as you wish.

[winter bloom]

QQ more farmsville.

[untold socket]

Your good at Parroting and Monkey imitating. You win first place! 🥇

[winter bloom]

Your good at trying to ruin a game, everyone knows and has seen that games die fast with no pvp and excitement. And you're trying to turn it into a farm simulator. Just stop and stay outside the circle. Also the parrot shows that your arguments don't hold water....good lord, but i don't expect much from farmsville players

[untold socket]

Oh you have not been paying attention then. I am not against PvP. I like PvP. I just do not like it forced, or ambush play. Consensual PvP is the way and my preference.

And I been playing PvP games since Ultima Online (if you are old enough to know what that is). I play Even Online etc. But Even EvE has secured Space.

WoSB equivalent to Secure Space is Peace Flags here, because it also caters to PVE.

PVE is not farming it is Combat Still it is just not Combat vs other players.

There are many MOBAS I play too, Pure PvP, Planetside 2, World of Warships, War Thunder, many others etc. Log in PvP. This here is an Age of Sail Themed MMORPG, and it is not only about PvP.

[winter bloom]

Didn't know you were forced into the circle....its consensual as soon as you enter, I'm fine with the rewards being larger to offset risks, but as soon as you remove pvp areas, game numbers will drop massively. Its a bad idea to remove pvp areas and make them farmsville.

Pvp drives this game. Without it, it will die super fast

[untold socket]

The fact that Circle is going away is news to me buddy. I am replying to your want to remove peace flags all together.

PvP is not going away. it will just work as it does now outside the circle I assume.

People can switch to Factional Flags and Switch to Decoys etc and you could PvP anywhere like that.

And besides we have the Endless sea which will remain Flagged PvP territory so in a way the Circle is being placed in the endless Sea and the middle is All flags...

At least this is what I think will happen, it seems logical from a design perspective to give more playing space to players, port battles, economic activity etc.

[winter bloom]

Yeah but im concerned that if you take away pvp areas, there is no reason to fly other flags, and you will reduce overall content and excitement and people will leave for other games if everyone is peace flags...no reason to play, a lot of numbers have left already due to lack of content, this will just make the numbers leaving greater

[untold socket]

Well of course there is reason to Fly other flags. To have fun in PvP no? the PvPers will Fly PvP flags. Plus The endless Sea is getting an Upgrade and expansion, and it will all be PvP...so no matter your flag the new Circle is the Endless Sea.

[untold socket]

As for content the game is still in devellopment more content is comming! Honnestly I have been ina hiatus more or less and been playing less since the Christmass event.

Many people got exhausted by it and then once it was gone people went to play other games. Most of my Guild members went inactive and I do not like playing alone all the time either. I am motivated by Group activity.

But the roadmap is causing some to come back! 🙂

[winter bloom]

So farming the event made it boring for you and your clan, kinda my point. More fighting, less farming, more people play....imo

[midnight cypress]

I have the idea they wouldn't make a change this big without having thought the matter through

[solemn ore]

i think they already thought of the matter, because it was a system that runs for years and ppl constantly ask it to change, especially from pve players
idk for sure but we can only see

[versed trail]

Crying PvE players want to ruin another game, which they will leave 5 minutes later anyways because surprise the PvE without pvp in an open world game with a small development team gets stale in a short time

[zenith warren]

I will throw my hat into this ring:

• Do I think PvP has a place in an MMO like WoSB? Absolutely
• Do I think a PvP-only zone can work on WoSB? If it is done correctly, sure.
• Do I think the PvP-only zone in the centre of the map works as it currently is? Ehhh not really.

Here’s the uncomfortable truth: WoSB is an MMO; and most MMO populations skew PvE/casual. The majority of players in almost every large MMO engage primarily with PvE content, and it's no different here.

Just look at The Division's Dark Zone, which can be seen as a vague parallel to WoSB's PvP zone.

Nowadays, the DZs in The Division (especially 2) is full of gank squads farming solos/casuals, high-gear veterans gatekeeping progression until the devs have to step in, and new players learning to avoid entire sections of the map.

Forced PvP zones only work long-term when at least one of these is true:

• Power is tightly normalized.
• Loss is low-cost and frictionless.
• Skill expression outweighs gear expression.

If none of those are true, forced PvP becomes predation, and predation is only fun for one side.

If a casual solo player in their Anson or Mordaunt sails into the PvP zone ferrying resources to build their first Rate 1, and they get obliterated by a Hurracan or a Trinidad running Jerichos/Colossus, they don’t feel like they had fun; they feel like their time and effort just got wasted. After it happens a few times, those casual/solo players will simply opt out — or leave WoSB altogether.

Here's the part that's going to make half of you guys vomit in disgust: you PvP players need those "PvE Carebears" more than they need you. They're the population density, economy activity, resource supply, and overall social stability. If they churn, PvP turns into a sad echo chamber of the same 100 people farming each other. Fewer PvE players having fun means fewer players overall. Fewer players overall means fewer potential players joining in on the PvP, and a less active game.

[zenith warren]

If the devs are changing the system (and it definitely looks like they are given what we know rn), then clearly something with the system as it is right now isn't working, and they want to address it. For now, just agree to wait and see what the dev team cooks before we all start doomposting about WoSB's apocalypse

[midnight cypress]

This is an excellent post, very well thought out

[tulip plume]

yes, they should change it.

[versed trail]

I see even more crying. The game already exists some years and there is no reason to change the circle.

[untold socket]

I am an Explorer-Socializer, RP-PVP, Open Ended, Sandbox MMO type player... I do not play games that are only PVE, it is mind Numbing. But the attempts to portray me as a Farmville player made me laugh lots hehe. I hate those games.

That said, I am not seeking to prove anything either to anyone. I know myself and I what I want out of games. I do also enjoy activities such as Crafting and some Questing etc.

PVE for me is just a means to an end a way to learn the Mechanics of the game. And also to relax spend some time with friends or solo to unwhine. I cannot do PVE ad infinitum and I end up quitting games that lean heavily in PVE.

We got exhausted from the Even because as Relatively new to WoWS who **are still progressing **we saw a way to get some rewards (like everyone else right) but it drained us having to sink those fracking Elve ships for hours and doing nothing else for 2 weeks.

The daily activities and focus got overridden you know, so people lost a bit their focus and purpose, were not in the mood to come back to PVE to progress anymore and took a break. The event took lil fun there was out of PVE... lol

Now that Said, I am not a sadist PvPer either, I do not go around seal clubbing, I play in an Honorable way and that is also expressed in PvP. I PvP to protect the innocent and the Weak, I am not a predator I am a defender. We used to have some terminology that I do not often see now days.

Player Killers or PK's, well my Style is the Anti-PK. To hunt the Hunters.

Or alternatively I PvP in Realm to Realm type Games. Factional Competition or Guild v Guild etc, since the days of Shadowbane and Dark Age of Camelot.

And, I think everyone has the right to play the game according to their personal style and I encourage and help anyone to do so without trying to change them.

People come First, and Game comes second. This is the principle we go by, and apply. As faithfully as other mantras like "never go PvP with what you are not willing to lose", if the game we play has Loss for instance. My First MMO did so, all these habits and behavior were learned then.

And I am not in the habit of spending my time to fill the pockets of a some guy that beefed out his ships one way or another and surgically attacks newbies for an easy kill and loot to satisfy his ego and need to feel better than others.

The most you will get out of me is a good fight, and maybe a loss. And I will PvP when I feel I am ready not when other want me to.

[untold socket]

The Game is in Development. Many things can and will change as it continues its journey.

[untold socket]

I agree in all the principles you so well expressed.

I just have a small question here about

If a casual solo player in their Anson or Mordaunt sails into the PvP zone ferrying resources to build their first Rate 1,

Why would they need to go to the PvP zone to do that? You can build your 1st Rate outside of it.

Even so lets say there is no national port available outside of the zone. I get a mistake, but I also don't get that kind of mistake, how does one put their expensive mats in a ship and sail straight to the PvP zone ignoring the warning ignoring the timer?

Without asking about the potential risks from other players etc?

I tend to think that the changes in this PvP zone are being done because of Fun related reasons in terms of design.

Having that zone smack in the middle of the map is just bad, it makes the map feel so small and cumbersome, affects gameplay in negative ways as it doe snot synergize well with in game activities and player styles as it gates the content inside behind a PvP barrier too and the map loses a lot of real-estate which could otherwise cater to a more fun game.

I personally am Glad that the Devs were able to see this and are correcting it.

[zenith warren]

I think one game that somewhat pulls of forced PvP is Naval Action (pls reserve your thoughts about the current state of the game).

A long time ago, PvP safe zones were present in the waters surrounding every landmass in the world map, limiting PvP to the high seas. They devs removed most of these safe zones in a later update, leaving the only PvP safe zone with a large island chain that serves as the new player area.

Why do I think that this instance of forced PvP works? Because in Naval Action, every player has to join a faction.

In WoSB, players don't have to join a guild and remain truly neutral. That's not an option in Naval Action; you have to pledge allegiance to one of the game's 8-9 nations, and everything you do in the game (directly or indirectly) contributes to your nation's war effort in the wider faction war, militarily or economically. In this instance, forced PvP makes sense.

A French player sinking a British player hauling gunpowder is fair game, because both players know their actions have an impact on the wider conflict—if the British hauler gets to his destination, he's contributing important resources that will be used in battle by another player down the line; if the French player sinks the British ship, he's denying the enemy faction critical resources

[untold socket]

Yes I am familiar with NA and I did play at the time when the Safe areas was around the Islands too, on the War Server.

I understand what you are saying and can relate indeed. Here everyone starts as a neutral Independent Captain.

And they may choose or not to Join a Guild belonging to a given Faction. The game thus Features Faction vs Faction play and is not focused only on that. It is an MMORPG, quests are comming.

[zenith warren]

still a shame that Naval Action shot itself in the foot with making gunpowder and cannonballs resources players have to gather and grind though; really slowed down the pace of the faction war to the point that military engagements are now economically unfeasable

[untold socket]

This is the biggest issue of most PvP games. I always advocated for a PvP game to offer good frequent PvP you need to setup the economy with less burden as possible.

Especially in a PvP game with loss. If you can lose, you should be able to re-aquire it fast so that you can continue fighting when the PvP is the focus of the game.

If your game is grindy and requires much effort to get resources' gather craft etc, there should be no loss plain and simple.

[versed trail]

Pvp games without loss are boring. Because people just use the biggest strongest ship and lose nothing even if they play stupid.
Also without loss in pvp the economy is even worse than normally
Because when you have crafted every ship why do you still need resources?

[solemn ore]

I agree with this

Something must be staked, especially in open roam pvp

And that's precisely why pvp must be non forced (and making removal of the inner circle is a wise decision)

Because anyone that would use pvp flag will be there BY choice and its their own fault to toggle pvp. They have consciously consent that they can be hit by anyone and consent with the risk

Current circle gatekeeps pve player from their mine setup in the middle (even without 25% bonus, just because not enough iron/coal nodes outside to have 5 iron 3 coal without going pvp circle)

And unsuspecting ppl get hit after going in middle

Crafting ship in aruba for ex
Enters from lighthouse, goes out in pvp flag

[versed trail]

The mine setup in the middle is a bonus to people who want to engage in pvp. Not something for peace flag players
Basic risk vs reward

[untold socket]

In game design there is a cardinal rule.

The cardinal rule of game design is that the game must be fun, engaging and playable, often summarized as focusing on the player's experience through empathy.

It requires creating meaningful, interactive choices to ensure the core mechanics deliver an enjoyable, functional experience.

To answer more directly to your question, lets take as Example World of Warcraft, it has PvP does it not? Yet there is no Loss, and yet there are resources and gathering even if people have all the Gear which cannot be lost.

Because of Crafting and Consumables. And it is Fun.

So in reality it depends on the game and its focus and the vision of the Devs and the Fun they want to provide to the players within it.

You cannot create a Dystopian Experience for the sake of a Working Economy. If the game is not fun, the people will quit and not give a dime about its economy.

[solemn ore]

Nope, that gatekeeps people from resources, which deters their progress unless they pvp

That's why removing the circle make sense and why buffing the pvp flag to make people want to toggle on their own is the better move

Look at dune awakening where they gatekeeps necessary items in pvp zone
https://youtu.be/tkhwT92vhEo

Player count dipped like crazy

[versed trail]

WoW is not an open world sandbox like Wosb. It is a theme-park mmo focuses on big pve expansions which we will never see in this game with a small dev team. If you want to compare Wosb to another game look at Eve or Albion and both are PvP full loot/destruction games with an economy.
Dune is a joke because it was focused too much on pve and has pve or pvp endgame. Wosb has a pvp endgame look at port battles and dominating the circle. But please tell me is killing imperial npcs really fun and engaging or are you only doing it for the grind?
same for forts

[solemn ore]

Correct
But the loss is there as the fun part of the game. You stake something

I don't want to promote gambling but it ain't fun unless there's a stake involved

I mean imagine going to a blackjack table but you can neither get anything or lose anything. It feel less attractive vs actual one

Staking integrity should be at least what needed to be

Not a big loss but something is staked

[solemn ore]

That's not the point
Lot of people complain if the only way to get something is pvp.
Even sea of thieves added safe seas mode due to that.

Its risk, yes, but it shouldn't be that much gap that a player feel missing out without pvp

Pvp should be a better method to earn something, not mandatory to have something and feel missing out and tormented that they don't pvp compared to ppl that do them.

Port battles are fine because they are optional

[untold socket]

And this proves the point I made above 🙂

The funny thing is that I was a Beta Tester in Dune and I warned the Devs of this Setup and Layout in long Forum Post explaining how it would back fire.

they did not listen...and voila the results.

I am dumbfounded how so many games lose their business by not understanding teh Cardinal rule of Game design.

You have to as a Game Developer always tell yourself that the players are here to have fun, the reason why we are here is to have fun, no other reason it is the first and most important one.

And while Fun is relative, it means that balanced approach is required, you cannot force people to PvP.

Especially in with Loss. People do not appreciate losing stuff they spend time Building.

It is simply counter to Fun to do that.

Dune has a lot of Grind a lot of Building a lot of Gathering and progression. PvP with Loss everywhere would not work under that economical setup.

Imagine there were people that wanted Loot PvP everywhere not only in the Deep Desert. But these people are not Devs or Game Designers they do not understand that their view would simply destroy the game.

And devs placed resources behind the PvP gate in the Deep Desert. voila the results.

[versed trail]

You can get everything by just pveing outside of a handful of arena rewards, just slower.
Sorry that this game is not the pve safehaven you want to play. Please go play something else and stop crying to make the game worse

[solemn ore]

Correct

Forcing ppl to pvp with loss is nasty move

Its either you willingly to enter a pvp that risk your stuff, or the game doesn't introduce loss with pvp

The best is former, which the next update SEEMS to try aim for, and its a good thing

[versed trail]

Pve only players are a curse to every pvpve game because they ruin them all if the devs are listening and then leave anyways to ruin the next pvpve game.

[solemn ore]

I'll offer a mirror
I'm sorry that the game actually plan to cater majority of the playerbase and have to balance things out
Please do not drive tons of people away for pvp minority players, and if you don't like it, find a pure pvp game that you like?

Pvp gamers left more games than pve players that stay longer btw
Studies has proven that pvp players usually stick with newest trend rather than old game, pve player stick longer

[versed trail]

You should look at eve online and albion. Because they actually aren't catering to carebears

[solemn ore]

Well they might catering pvp players, but then compare it to other games like world of warcraft, the scale is different

If we run a survey of pve players and pvp players atm, the numbers will be way more in pve

Driving pve players off right now will at least make the playerbase gone by two thirds

Don't get me wrong. PvP MUST exists, but it must be balanced out

Not being a carebear but just lets face reality. Pvper only player is a smaller fraction of current playerbase

[versed trail]

How many WoW clones have survived?

[solemn ore]

And how much pvpve focused game fails in comparison?

We have dark and darker for ex. Look how it goes

The only successful pvpve atm is arc raiders, rest is forgotten now

Meanwhile we have tons of pve focused game success.
Helldiver 2 for ex
Despite same gameplay over and over

[versed trail]

Are you right now talking about some talkov clones? That are no mmos. That are extraction shooters. And Helldivers is no mmo that's a coop game

[solemn ore]

I gonna say this again: PvP must exists, but it must made it so that the people that don't do pvp doesn't feel tormented and missing out without it

[untold socket]

Personally I do not mind the Loss, as Long as the PvP is Consensual.

that is the Key and conclusion I have reached in all my time playing PvP MMOs.

And I played Ultima Online on Release and for 5 years, Full Loot PvP mechanics then, heck you could lose your House your Castle everything for a time and it was a massacre.

People were quitting over losing their house.

Imagine someone being able to Kill you outside of your Island and going in to your Island instead and emptying it and destroying the building etc.

Would you like that and say "wow what fun PvP this is?"

Well we endured that for 2 years before the Devs fixed it in Ultima Online hahah. But the game lost 50% of its players in the process and pained to regain them.

Then Star Wars Galaxies came out and it had Factional PvP and it also had Loss in the form of Decay. Items decayed with time, not lost as loot in PvP but dying caused your gear to decay and eventually you needed to replace it and that closed the Crafting loop.

But at the same time it was relatively very easy to replace your gear, Resources were abundant heck you have harvesters that gathered resources automatically even you only need to spend time to survey for them place harvester and go have fun fighting come next day to collect resources and build more stuff.

PvP in SWG was Consensual, but inviting to players to engage in it, still there are always players who simply do not like the activity of PvP and so they are also important in a game.

Like we have mines here and production in our island, it is automated right? But now imagine with 10x the speed and amount.

If it was like that more people would PvP because they would feel that the loss can be replaced with relative easy it would not bite them as much. And that is the idea.

Then Consensual for those who absolutely do not have fun PvPing loss or no loss.

[solemn ore]

I'm talking PvPvE games in general with forced pvp to progress (at least partial)
Mostly fails. Only Arc Raiders I know is successful.

Any other pvpve games atm either stumbled or just outward dying. Pve focused game that has optional pvp tend to survive way longer.

Also pure pvp game thrives, but pvpve with forced pvp to progress or lock people out from some stuff currently in bad spot

[versed trail]

Arc raiders will probably die soon anyways, but idk. You got the original trakov and some copycats. maybe tarkov will die and arc raiders survive. There is normally only one game of a specific game type successful for a long time. But it is something completly different to a sandbox open world game
But I hape the devs don't kill risk vs reward and the pvp in this game because otherwise the majority of the big groups will be gone and the game dies. Because surprise pve in this game is boring as hell. No need for a huracan if pvp is dead same for an octopus. So why still grind?

[untold socket]

Eve Online has Insurance.... even if you lose your ship and its equipment you are reimbursed everything.

So In other words, EVE has what I posted about, You can lose Stuff but it is easy to regain them. Easy go but also Easy come.

The people who lose "value" are corps and alliances in their Wars for dominion over Zero sec and its resources.

Albion I played, if they still have the original forums you can search for my name there and see my posts.

It is niche, because it does things the wrong way, PvP gating progression and resources is a flawed design.

EVE online is moving out of it with Frontier too.

[solemn ore]

I think they will buff the pvp flag so ppl feel urged to use it
Plus they said in endless sea they are adding endgame economy that you are forced pvp with, but i doubt it's something you can't gain without pvp (might be painful tho)

[versed trail]

First frontier is crypto hell, nobody plays it. The insurance is a joke and gives you back pretty much nothing. Please don't use AI as source. You lose significant more in eve than in wosb if you die in a big ship.

[versed trail]

But both games are still alive and will be longer alive than wosb I promise

[untold socket]

I played EVE up to 2012 my friend, I started in Beta, I am using my experience to write all this not any AI lol.

So my next point is if then both games are so alive and well and great in the PvP how come YOU are not there playing those games and are here telling us to play something else just because we want to have fun like you?

[versed trail]

I play both of them, why do you not play WoW

[untold socket]

Wow Plays itself now days, it was never my style I enjoyed it for the PvP went Rank 14 in Vanila and then some Arenas...PVE all the time and repeating Instances and Raids for gear ad nauseum is not my idea of fun.

But nor is spending hours gathering resources only to have a fully decked sadist come to take it all.

[versed trail]

Then play a gamewithout open world pvp

anyways just stop crying please

[untold socket]

I like Sandbox MMOs, and this means Open Ended Gameplay, it means Emergent Gameplay and it means Social Interaction.

And PvP as part of the virtual world too yes, Solo PvP, Factional PvP, GvG PvP which ever it is, best implementation is the Consensual way in my experience.

Unless we are talking about the World of Warships kind of PvP the Planetside 2 kinds of PvP the Dark Age of Camelot, World War II Online PvP . These are PvP games too you know, just no loss , the rewards are the Win, the Ranking the Honor Leaderbords, Winning the Campaign.

[untold socket]

Hahah whois crying? We are having a conversation. We have different points of view that is all.

Do you have to feel that you are ruining your victim's day to have fun? Is that what gives you fun? or is it Greed? I don't get it, why do you need to be able to loot other players? Looting NPC's is not enough?

Why can't you enjoy the Fight for the sake of the Competition?

What is it that you are afraid of losing with the upcoming changes that has you all upset?

[versed trail]

tbh I am afraid that the game will be not worth my time anymore afterthey rework flags because there is no central pvp zone anymore which encourages pvp

[untold socket]

Well, do you like the rest of the game though? Its theme age of sail its other features?

[solemn ore]

That a valid concern
But they gonna try with that approach and all we can do is to wait and see

It might turn people away, but also bringing some people back

I have tons of people who refuses to return because of the pvp zone

So just come and see. You can always walk away if you don't like the change. Like skull n bones did to me

[versed trail]

But why start at all a gme with a pvp zone and then complain about it?

[untold socket]

I never complained about it...who complained?

[untold socket]

I came for the Age of Sail and the Port Battles....the Faction vs Faction part of the Game, and the other "Sandbox" elements, the open ended aspect, the emergent gameplay.

[versed trail]

I came for a open world pvp game

[untold socket]

It was news to me a week ago to read that the circle is going away. Now, when I read that I happened to agree but not because of the PvP but rather because of the wasted space in the middle of the map and inorganic layout.

I think it will be much more organic having Flag dynamics in all of the map and then surrounding it having PvP all around in Endless seas.

[versed trail]

Flag dynamics are always worse than area based pvp.

[untold socket]

But it is consensual like that, and you know someone in Factional Decoy or Black flags is out to PvP and offer a challenge, what else can be more exciting?

Plus the game will be much more like EVE no? High Sec in the middle and Zero Sec all around. 😉

Plus Pirates are Always Flagged so! Yeah! Let the fun begin 🙂

[versed trail]

Actually one of the bad design points of eve. Null sec in the middle would have resulted in more pvp content centralization and more pvp conflict instead of having player groups just farm in their corner of space and not fight each other.

Consent with area based pvp works easily: go into pvp area = you consented

[untold socket]

Like an Open sky arena eh? You like that instead? To me it is inorganic and does nothing for immersion, counter intuitive and artificial.

Now people will be roaming everywhere everywhere there is potential for PvP, pirates will always be flagged so you can always engage other Pirates if you feel bored.

plus there will be people who will flag to fight pirates now all over as well and especially near Pirate Ports.

And then now there will also be incentive to go to the Endless Sea again more PvP there.

I am not sure you realize that this change will actually enhance PvP not discourage it.

people will have the option to switch their flag and seek to pvp, and when they have enough go or be sent there after sinking switch back to peace and lick their wounds.

but knowing the can do that now, and are not forced to a PvP always on Zone they will switch to PvP more often too.

I know it is speculative, so I say, lets wait and see 🙂 Lets asses onc ethe changes are there and some time passes.

[versed trail]

There will be less pvp. Less centralised

[untold socket]

Lets see 🙂 honestly I do not mind losing some cargo or losing some integrity there are resources all over the place in this game.

What I do mind losing is cash and I have lots on me right now and that is the reason I have been avoiding the circle.

I find this chest deal just so inconvenient and a hassle and I simply do not want to bother, because I need the liquidity.

My hope is that they would re-evaluate gold loss in PvP and then we can PvP all you want.

[versed trail]

But you also would avoid flagging.

[untold socket]

Yeah as long as I have that Cash on me. So one mor ereason for them to re-evaluate that part. Lots of people elect to stay away from PvP just because of that mechanic in the game.

[versed trail]

I just hope open world pvp will still be worth it after they remove the cricle. But we will see and if not it is sad to see another pvp game go to the trash

[untold socket]

And from that one simple mechanic I think everything else follows. see I realize that because of the cash I am forced to avoid the circle because I avoid it I have to sail around it because sailing around is longer then I find myself staying mostly in the East..and maybe that is why the West is underpopulated too.

So, remove money loss or make it like a random number between 100 and 5000 gold (not unlike when you sink an npc), and regardless of how much cash people carry, and you would see things changing 😉

It will not go to the trash though don't be gloomy my friend, Factional Play Port Battles etc are also PvP and are not going anywhere.

[versed trail]

I don't really care about port battles. They are staged pvp with mostly p2w huricans^^

I kinda like the chest system, even though I forget too often about it and lose too much gold^^
Am not even pirate. Just run around in a neutral flotilla and have fun

Really need to try the portable chests though

[midnight cypress]

It doesn't help that PVPers are the loudest and angriest on genchat, especially with guys like lokomis trying (successfully) to wind them up. 1v1 me, umad, gitgud, qq more. Many in the MMO PVP community are utterly unhinged and aren't satisfied until they've ran anyone else off the server and made everyone else's lives as miserable as possible in the most sh1tty ways possible. There's no balance with these people, no moderation or middle ground. They can't just kill a guy, be satisfied for winning, take a bit of loot and leave. They have to kill a guy, camp his body for 2 hours, loot everything he has, follow him back to his spawn, raze his sh1tshack and take the scraps he's been grinding. It turns out people don't really like that. I would much rather have a central area where these people are contained, and if I stick my head in there I know what I'm getting into and it's on me

[solemn ore]

i think the next system is having a toggleable pvp (like now) with tweaked loots with pvp on (so i think pvp enabled people will get way more loot than peaceful one, by how they worded it). its not concentrated atm (might be in endless zone later on) and probably sporadic
so you basically consent if you toggle pvp flag, kind of

[midnight cypress]

Although I PVE I enjoy watching port battles, and afterwards most people are like GF

[solemn ore]

yep, same here, love watching PBs, felt like you are watching an esport match lol

[midnight cypress]

The other day there was a port battle in somewhere like devios on na1 and lokomis was giving a play by play in genchat. It was glorious lol

[versed trail]

Tbh the general chat is an unmoderated hellhole. Just block them. Tbh I have more a problem with the guys throwing slurs and other bigoted stuff around than with just the provocations

[midnight cypress]

Real

[untold socket]

General Chat is very Toxic, I do not chat often in it. It is all epeen jousting too, unfortunately.

[untold socket]

Exactly no ambush play! It is Consensual PvP you change flag and go in to Fight. Not like trying o move your stuff and be attacked like a lone deer surrounded by hungry wolves.

[zenith warren]

An excellent case of a PvP-focused MMO needing to backtrack so late into development is New World

Now dozens upon dozens of very vocal and angry players (some who inhabit this server and I will not name) like to blame the shift to PvE content for why New World failed. I disagree: the shift definitely accelerated the issues, but it wasn't the issue at heart. The issue was the fact that the game launched in a messy, bug and exploit-ridden mess that the game effectively killed off any goodwill the game had with the playerbase

The problem is that those very loud and vocal players keep forgetting one crucial fact: The New World devs themselves admitted that the result they wanted with the PvP was the opposite of what they wound up getting.

They wanted*"fair fights that are organized, skill based, and opted into by all participants."*

What they got a lot of instead, was
"PKing (Player Killing), which is a predatory behavior that relies on exploiting another player’s lack of experience, progress, readiness, or willingness. So for those folks who desire that harsh PVP environment, New World may not be your favorite game"

https://mein-mmo.de/en/new-world-shifted-focus-from-pvp-to-pve-even-before-the-launch-the-new-season-shows-why-that-was-the-right-decision,1219687/

https://www.newworld.com/en-us/news/articles/the-evolution-of-new-worlds-pvp

[midnight cypress]

interesting!

[midnight cypress]

there was just a big p1ssing match on chatPVP lolo000ol

[versed trail]

You are just showing that New World devs had no clue what they were doing and then killed the game by switching it to pve. Even though they had no pve content 🤣

[midnight cypress]

I would really like to take part in port battles, but other than those mmo pvp has always attracted the worst sociopaths on the internet

[zenith warren]

Oh look, someone who blames the switch to PvE!

[versed trail]

If you market a game as PVP game, build no pve content and suddenly remove the pvp, it suprisingly dies. Maybe think before developing a pvp game if you have no clue what to do?

[zenith warren]

Indeed

Probably also the reason why the WoSB devs are redoing the flag system and removing the PvP zone as a side effect

[versed trail]

Because of the crying of carebears like you who need to get protected from the evil PVPers, even though you already have the peace flag

[zenith warren]

I feel like WoSB isn't the MMO for you if you're this hostile to PvE players as a whole

Then again, given past anecdotal evidence that you strictly fly the blag flag, it's probably no surprise you like the PvP zone as an open hunting ground where you're free to PK without consequence

[midnight cypress]

I'm fine with the peace flag system. I wonder what's prompting this change

[versed trail]

carebears like Aron

[next hemlock]

dang this thread is still going lol

[untold socket]

I also Played New World and I also left when it turned PVE..just saying.

What we need to understand though there is that there is a difference between changing the focus of the game after launch and doing so during development.

World of Sea Battle is in Development and I think it can change as needed during it progress and development, and I also do not think that it will eliminate PvP like New World.

Factional Competition Port Conquest are at the core of this Game, this competition gives rise to meaning and purpose.

Factional PvP is very much PvP

And Consensual PvP is still very much PvP too.

Organized PvP (like Arenas, Battlegrounds etc) is also PvP.

PvP does not have to be non Consensual to be PvP.

New World was not ready when it launched to do the PvP they had envisioned, and I think mainly because these were inexperienced designers.

[silent heron]

The game doesn’t force military to be friendly with trade union but if you sink a trader unprovoked you get penalized. You lose some influence but it ain’t like you can’t attack trader as long as you keep an eye on ur influence points.