#Anyway I m saying that fundamentally we
grave tulip
I'm not, but this is pure biological determinism which went out of style a long time ago. There simply is no evidence there was a massive number of gender-nonconforming or LGBT people hiding in plain sight to the extent the numbers in the 18-34 y/o range are triple those of the 74+ range, which is why it's important not to bias major decisions on sexuality or gender identity. Treat it with the gravity it deserves
slate veldt
People 70 years ago had the gay beaten out of them
grave tulip
Those are current numbers though. I mean I know 70-somethings that will casually say the most racist shit in public, do you think they care at that age to say it if they've always been gay?
There's no evidence for this though, societies that openly accepted being LGBT didn't have these numbers
slate veldt
grave tulip
Plus it's ludicrous to think that this is something that isn't subject to extreme social influence
It was happening on 17th century pirate ships, do you really think it's not happening among young people for which being LGBT gives you social brownie points?
slate veldt
Why just yesterday I saw several animations of whitebeard's penis
I'm really not sure what point that is making
Other than pirates were gay and cool
grave tulip
Because you're saying these people were just hidden, not that they're subject to social influence to make life-altering decisions
slate veldt
They also probably lacked social understanding we have today about gender
grave tulip
What "social understanding" is that?
This isn't settled science by any means, it's hypermodern and is a verboten topic to be discussed in public
slate veldt
Just the ability to conceptually understand gender and se* are different
grave tulip
There were a lot of things that were common understanding, historically. It didn't make them a good idea
Lobotomy was widely praised in its time and seen as a miracle cure for a range of severe mental disorders
honest shore
Gender and [REDACTED] is different?
grave tulip
lol 1984 bot
slate veldt
Gender and [REDACTED] is different?
Are you asking honestly?
slate veldt
S*x is like... Do they have a penis and what are the chromosomes. Gender is who can wear a dress.
grave tulip
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/tiktok-causing-tics-in-teen-girls/ People can be convinced to self-induce the development of fairly severe neurological disorders. Of course they can be convinced their gender and [redacted] don't align, and that has serious consequences. It's not like having low vitamin D where you just take a pill and you're good
slate veldt
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/tiktok-causing-tics-in-teen-girls/ People can...
In my day we induced neurological disorders through good ol fashioned prayer and spankings
grave tulip
In my day we induced neurological disorders through good ol fashioned prayer and...
That's still legal in more US schools than you might realize, Afghanistan banned it before we did
honest shore
S*x is like... Do they have a penis and what are the chromosomes. Gender is who ...
Ooo
grave tulip
Sure, but historically it required quite a bit of interrogation. I know someone who had severe, persistent identity disturbance across multiple aspects of her life over time who decided she was male. Her therapist did not agree at all, so she shopped around until she found one that didn't
honest shore
Why not just wear the dress? No matter what ur [REDACTED]
grave tulip
I think everyone can do pretty much whatever they want
slate veldt
Why not just wear the dress? No matter what ur [REDACTED]
Well now that works. But 50 years ago? Or in modern Florida? It might be illegal based purely on your genitals.
grave tulip
I do not think that someone who literally was unsure whether they identified as Jewish or a white supremacist is someone who can make a rational decision about whether to get their breasts cut off
When I say "severe persistent identity disturbance" I'm not being cute
grave tulip
I mean "changed college majors five times" and "jumped in and out of furrydom" and "changed the gender they were attracted to" repeatedly
honest shore
I do not think that someone who literally was unsure whether they identified as ...
Breast cut off? Remind me of something
slate veldt
Illegal?! For wearing a skirt?!?
Yes? Have you ever talked to a fundamentalist Christian? They would argue drag queens should be publicly hanged.
honest shore
Religious fanatic is dumb tho
grave tulip
Yes? Have you ever talked to a fundamentalist Christian? They would argue drag q...
Yeah, the fundies are back at it again. It feels like the 90s sometimes
slate veldt
Religious fanatic is dumb tho
And also heavily represented in the US Government
honest shore
Ooo
grave tulip
Which is rather annoying since I'd like to interrogate many of the same issues they're bringing up, just with a fair bit less insanity
honest shore
That's not good
slate veldt
Which is rather annoying since I'd like to interrogate many of the same issues t...
100%
grave tulip
What's that conservative firebrand who got caught on tape being ridiculously verbally abusive to his pregnant wife?
honest shore
I do not think that someone who literally was unsure whether they identified as ...
Oh I got it
https://youtu.be/6O3MzPeomqs
slate veldt
What's that conservative firebrand who got caught on tape being ridiculously ver...
But just bear in mind that in a public discord you are interrogating people who may have to deal with that same interrogation with people who could actually cause them harm
grave tulip
Yeah a guy on a podcast I listened to noted that this is what makes school shooters and fs people up, not seeing some gay guys dance around in dresses
Like if you want to make a kid whose brain is really scrambled it starts at home where you get to see this every day
slate veldt
I was watching Linus tech tips and he asked GPT to explain the Harry Potter controversy
I was rolling
grave tulip
But just bear in mind that in a public discord you are interrogating people who ...
I don't think people tend to get asked these hard questions very often at all. Embracing someone's newfound identity isn't necessarily a good idea. The difference between, say, being gay and being trans represents quite a jump in mental health issues
slate veldt
I don't think people tend to get asked these hard questions very often at all. E...
If your publicly transitioning... Yes you get asked a lot
grave tulip
Society being nice to you doesn't mean you don't look in the mirror every day and see the wrong gender, ergo why the primary treatment for gender dysphoria is to come to terms with it rather than try to change. For people that absolutely cannot be happy, then we have some medical interventions that can try
Publicly acknowledging the severe limitations of transition therapy is something that's also swept under the rug all the time
slate veldt
To be clear no one should be transitioning and not talking to a mental health professional
Like I don't think anyone would advocate for HRTs and no therapy
grave tulip
I mean, take the case of my friend whose mental health professional rejected her desire to start taking HRT and cut her boobs off for years due to her severe mental health history. She just found a doctor that was fine with it
grave tulip
I have two friends who decided they were they/thems after entering into sociology grad school in their 20s. One had no relevant history whatsoever, the other was just a tomboy. Zero ever described any desire or interest in being nonbinary until they happened to be in an environment where this was "the thing to be"
slate veldt
Yeah, you can't really be something you have no conceptual understanding of
grave tulip
They also both got kind of the stereotypical haircut (dyed, shaved on one side), again after a lifetime of never looking like this. Am I supposed to believe this was just totally hidden in people I knew for a decade? Why do people that go get MBAs not decide they're nonbinary?
slate veldt
Why are you so concerned about their gender?
grave tulip
Why are they?
They suddenly were after being put into a social climate where this was all they talked about
slate veldt
Because it affects them every second of their life
grave tulip
It didn't seem to until they got into sociology graduate programs
slate veldt
Because they lacked knowledge to meaningfully communicate their thoughts
grave tulip
Seemed to be no problem at all until it was the thing people around them decided was really important to talk about and focus on all the time
That's like saying I'm not a Christian because I haven't ben around enough people talking about Christianity
Probably true, doesn't mean I should just spend more time around evangelicals because I'm missing something
slate veldt
Community is a pretty big part of the religion, yes
I mean... You're making a valid argument for gender abolitionism?
grave tulip
People can be socialized into believing in something that they can't see, that there's no evidence for to the extent they'll die for it, but can't be socialized into modern gender ideology?
I don't think gender should constrain all that much except for things like sports, no
slate veldt
Gender isn't really an ideology...
grave tulip
Modern gender ideology is a set of hypermodern views on gender that are totally unresolved with science or historical precedent
So on the far opposite side of my more miserable personal examples, I have a friend who was kind of a pain in the ass, like a really aggressive lesbian who was just constantly getting in trouble. She transitioned pretty much at the age of 18, like as early as possible. He's a pretty cool guy and actually almost aggressively boring, like I liked the wild girl more, but clearly he's much happier. This is about as unambiguous of a transition case as I can imagine where it was clearly the right call for him
There were no gigantic red flags, no social influence, and ample clear, persistent gender dysphoria. He kept most of his old friends too, didn't make it a particularly big deal beyond what it was
When I contrast a case like this with some of the other people I know, it's absolute night and day. The other people actually seem louder, more aggressively activist and really "into" their new identity. It's not just something they had to do because it's the only way they'll be happy
slate veldt
Okay I think it is really important to point out how big a factor "if I transition and fail I'll have fucked up my life" is in whether or not a trans person comes out
grave tulip
But isn't that fairly true? You can't undo those changes
slate veldt
And the solution to this problem is to make that failure less real
slate veldt
But isn't that fairly true? You can't undo those changes
You don't have to stigmatize them
You don't have to refer to someone who has told you they use they/them pronouns as a tomboy
grave tulip
Why not? It's a really bad idea to get elective surgery you'll regret or take hormones that permanently alter your physiology
slate veldt
Why not? It's a really bad idea to get elective surgery you'll regret or take ho...
It also could be a really good idea. A life saving idea.
grave tulip
She is and always has been a tomboy, she decided after entering a climate where gender was the most important thing everyone talked about to be a they/them. Seems to me like she was bullied into it
They convinced her this was a great identity and I see no evidence it's benefited her in any way
slate veldt
So rather than support them through bullying you're belittling them on grammar?
grave tulip
In fact she seems much less happy on social media
No, I'm still her friend and at the rare times I've seen her we've just never talked about the shit she came to see as being so important in grad school
And I specifically avoid the topic since there are a number of things we'd really, really disagree on here
But I do know she now constantly expresses how upset she is with various social injustices, real and perceived, which is a far cry from the girl I grew up with
slate veldt
So okay here's my question. Why do you keep referring to them as "she?"
grave tulip
Cause J is a girl and presents as one in every way, and I don't think the they/them will stick over the long term. Also it's grammatically awful 🤮
I'll refer to my other friend who "transitioned" (and who I believe bullied her girlfriend into transitioning as well, which is absolutely f-cked) as a girl too since that's the last I knew her as before she chose to drop all of her friends through rather brutal attrition
slate veldt
Cause J is a girl and presents as one in every way, and I don't think the they/t...
I thought you said they presented their pronouns as they them?
grave tulip
She stated that on social media, sure, and I don't think it'll stick. I'm not a big fan of those pronouns at all for quite a few reasons
Again, why is nonbinary gender identity hypermodern? What does it say about our society if we're so obsessed with gender people would elect for this fresh option?
slate veldt
What's grammatically awful?
grave tulip
"they/them" doesn't work in English. It's hard enough to use in writing and constantly causes confusion in speech
slate veldt
It... Doesn't tho
grave tulip
Hey, look at them over there!
Oh you mean that one person or the group of people
"You know, them!"
Oh. Cool.
slate veldt
That is easily solved by clarifying number
In the very occasional cases where you both need to use a pronoun and the plurality is in question
grave tulip
If you ever watched Billions you'll know exactly what I mean
slate veldt
"Hey, look at them!"
"That group of yaks?"
"No, the person."
grave tulip
They constantly had to refer to Taylor by name because they/them created chronic ambiguity
slate veldt
What's Billions?
grave tulip
Same with an nb friend of my ex, they just had to refer to her by name all the time
slate veldt
Honestly sounds like grammatical skill issues
grave tulip
It's a pretty good show, I think it's still going on
The language wasn't designed for it, I'm convinced it's mostly people that want to hear their name said out loud way more
slate veldt
Nah, there is a functional need for a gender neutral pronoun and singular they has served that function for a long time
grave tulip
Billions has B*SM, drama, hedge funds, you name it. And an nb character you can hear the name of nonstop if you really like the name Taylor
Though spoiler she dresses up as a girl to curry the favor of a Russian oligarch since they're just as big of a sociopath as all the other main characters
grave tulip
Nah, there is a functional need for a gender neutral pronoun and singular they h...
I use it in writing, it's still a pain in spoken word. Personally, if someone uses they/them I'll literally avoid talking about them rather than constantly use their name. I don't know many people personally that elect for this though since they tend to be fairly exhausting
I am not a huge fan of pronouns at all, my name is usually guessed to be male but is technically gender ambiguous and I try to keep it that way
slate veldt
I use it in writing, it's still a pain in spoken word. Personally, if someone u...
Have you ever considered the reason you find so many they thems exhausting is because you're exhausting and they thems don't want to talk to you?
grave tulip
Have you ever considered the reason you find so many they thems exhausting is be...
I only know two personally and they, again, both got graduate degrees in sociology and both won't shut up about gender