#combat-and-skills

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

bronze hollow
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I have an extra, you can have it if you want it. But it'll have to be tomorrow, I've logged out for the night now. It's midnight here.

frail flower
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yeah sure imma go dm you tomorrow

tawny hinge
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okay so a wood bow and wood arrows (both level 3) with all of 8 skill points spent does 61-73 on a headshot to scavengers depending on whether or not they're weak to pierce

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no wonder people say daggers feel really weak. Daggers have extremely similar damage to one handed swords.

gray pivot
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Exact same combo I've been using, works really well

trail cypress
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Tbh sounds like a 2nd playthrough vs 1st one

tawny hinge
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its a third playthough

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I beat the game on melee twice

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like, bow only for puzzles. Trying to shoehorn melee to make it work

trail cypress
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*shrug*

tawny hinge
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I've now run my damage calc through all the weapon types

These weapons seem to function exactly as you expect from a damage perspective:
1h melee
2h axe/hammer
Daggers

These weapons have slight damage deviations:
Bow: Skillshot/headshot give a deceptively large damage increase over the course of a bossfight/dungeon.
Wands: 10% overcharge, for example, appears to mean "gives 0, 5, or 10% bonus damage at random". This could be actually random 0-10% but it's a low chance to do zero bonus damage. On average you're getting free bonus damage through this perk so a 1h sword with the same attack value will do less per swing.

These weapons flat out do more damage than you'd expect:
Staff: appears to have a 1.2x modifier anytime you shoot a spell. Some spells do slightly different than you'd expect. Fireball for example does 1-2 damage less than it 'should' (at low stat levels, this damge 'reduction' will grow as you have higher damage modifiers). this might be unique to the spell or might be that AOE spells get a smaller bonus. Impossibe to know.

Greatsword: basic attack does 1.5x damage instead of all other melee attacks doing 1.0. This damage increase doesn't convert to special attacks you gain from skills. so a standing attack and a jump slam do the exact same damage as both are 1.5x "base damage"

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so at this point we have enough data to do an accurate damage calculator in a google sheet or something for people who like to tinker each weapon/stat to try and optimize, god forbid people try to speedrun bosses or something

it also wont be difficult to get a new player guide to damage together so players can understand without clogging up chat with very basic questions. I imagine having a little faq or guide to reference could be valued for brand new player who feel overwhelmed by the stat options.

The only remaining thing is to get actual resistance numbesr on the enemies. The "combat mechanics page " (https://enshrouded.wiki.gg/wiki/Combat_Mechanics)

is not only incomplete, there are a few errors as well. Scav rangers are .7 resistant to fire not .5. Any patch the resistances could have changed, i'm new enough that I cant guarantee these weren't 100% accurate at one point.

tawny hinge
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The perk Skill shot does not provide 20% more head shot damage. It instead provides a bonus to all attacks equal to 50% of the damage you'd do to an unmodified body shot.

For example:

A level 50 Drak whistle with 10 dex and 30% bonus ranged damage from skills does 224 on a body shot. If you only take Skill shot it then does 336 damage. This bonus 112 damage does not get multiplied by a head shot. the skill shot damage is calculated at the original 224 damage, then the 112 damage is added. It should also be stated that head shots are not 1.5x increase like the in game tool tip implies. they are a 2x increase. So a "headshot" without skill shot in this case does 448 damage. and with it, 560 damage.

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skill shot its so damage efficient for its cost that melee characters going up to the ranger perk for increased crit chance and damage should take the side of the tree with this perk. It will likely make the forsaken bow hit harder than your melee weapons on its own.

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a 19 strength 2h build hits a drak for 551 with frost smasher (including 30% bludgeoning increase form skill points)

Forsaken bow only buffed by grabbing the ranger perk (for crit bonus we want for the damn hammer) and getting to updraft nets one additional dex. It body shots around 400 and crits for 650 all thanks to skillshot. An unbelievable amount of damage for a build that has done nothing to intentionally increase bow damage outside of one node.

You'll still out dps your bow with the hammer, especially with the melee damage gear we're wearing but you can get skill shot on your way to ranger and just forgo grabbing either of the hook traits in the center area. because your bow will melt anything you cant reach, not using the hook will save you needed stamina as well

solar rock
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Okay, so:

  1. Are any types of melee weapons considered better than others.
  2. How similar in power are melee weapons of a given rarity?
tawny hinge
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Just use the power wrote on the weapon to decide "whats the best hammer" till youre are finding max level weapons. Its far too complicated to sort out the best between 3 weapons you're literally gonna replace in 5 hrs.

I think 2h axes and hammers are "best". They are easy to use, do tons of damage and the large sweeps make them hit lots of badguys so you take less damage and heal a lot.

I believe but haven't proven yet that greatswords do more damage. But anyone thats used a GS will be quick to tell you that the learning curve and akward moves are too big of a hurdle for a 5-10% dps difference to matter.

1h weapons are..... well bad. Or at least theyre looking bad. Shields are mid cause blocking sucks. And the perks on 1h weapons tend toward "utility", and most people who are asking questions like what weapon is best, dont care about quality of life perks.

cunning mural
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I am noticing this section got very... active recently

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I wonder if the devs plan on doing a dedicated "Combat" update?

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"Combat The Shroud"? "Shroud of War"? there's gotta be better "combat update" names

trail cypress
cunning mural
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do you think we'll get spears or better unarmed combat? :P

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and I guess more I meant "do they plan on doing a dedicated combat update next"

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cause after veilwater came out I think someone said they didn't have plans for another biome

sullen crater
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Well, they still owe us the Albaneve Hollow Halls...

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I presume that's one of the next things up.

sullen crater
tawny hinge
wild cypress
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[scoffing in dagger-enjoyer at tank and barbarian style players] Imagine being surrounded. 🧐

(joking, of course)

stark lake
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I like 1h speed but yeah if I'm using melee its to help with swarms so spin to win is king

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I got like 4 fracturing gems from a halls run andput one in my 2H, its nice

trail cypress
sullen crater
tawny hinge
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i mean, if we're giving advice to people and builds to people with the constant caveat that "on different difficulty settings, you'll want to do noticeably less damage so you can permanently stagger normal enemies in a 1v1 situation"

is higher difficulty actually fun or worth talking about? If constant staggering so you never interact with some core mechanics is the best way to play cause they do too much damage and are too tanky.... thanks probably a design issue and not a difficulty setting worth considering playing

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I got rev .01 of a damage calc working now

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maces are plugged in. it puts out accurate, in game verifible attack values nopw

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lots of work to do but, 1h melee weapons looks perfect. I just gotta plug in hte swords and axes.

sullen crater
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I don't play on über difficulties, but still, even on normal, it's not like every build other than 1h oneshots everything around, and, to be honest, it would be kinda boring if they did.

tawny hinge
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I believe the "2h damage" perk falls into the equation at a different spot than teh 1h perk so i'm not holding my breath that I can just slot 2h weapons in with no additional work

half furnace
tawny hinge
sullen crater
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Fair enough!

tawny hinge
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and being able to CC tentacles is great

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and one handed weapons get to use the 5% damage rings easier

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casue they attack faster so crit more often, thus not needing the healing rings

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but the axe is gonna eat the tentacle hit, then heal up to full 🤷‍♂️

pure bobcat
tawny hinge
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I know when I was typing it, keeping the perk separate in explanation from extra damage from hitting weak spots was tough.

The short of it is simply the perk skill shot MASSIVELY increases damage whether or not you're hitting their weak points

pure bobcat
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The next point of confusion, at least for me, is the stun/stagger/stun-bar/overpower mechanics. For example, using a wand or bow against a blocking enemy seems to fill up their stun bar but it does not stun them even when the bar is full, and yet if you switch to a melee weapon after the bar is full they suddenly stand still and let you Merciless attack them. Using chain lightning and lightning channel spells will fill up the enemies' stun bars and actually stun them when full, and you can Merciless attack them. (These two cases I've tested rather frequently). I've heard from others that the Terror perk will "stun" enemies but not let you Merciless attack them (but I haven't tested it yet). So like, what in the world is going on here?

(How did Keen even manage to code a system so complex compared to the intuitive "fill up stun bar" -> "enemy is stunned" -> "all consequences of stun from any source are the same"?)

tawny hinge
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yeah it sure looks like a weapon has to have some intrinsic value that allows a full bar to convert to a stunned merciless attack

pure bobcat
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Not only that, but some full bars lead to the stunned state, and others don't. Seriously, I've had enemies running at me and swinging their weapons with full bars, as long as the bar was filled with wand projectiles. And even though switching to a melee weapon gives me the Merciless option, it doesn't put the "stunned" symbol above the enemy's head. I feel like some part of this has got to be a bug, I just have no clue which part...

tawny hinge
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i love it

tawny hinge
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now that we know how much damage we SHOULD do, we can more easily back navigate the multiplier values on each type of swing

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turns out the spin to win skill is 2x damage

dire marsh
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I wish there was like A Great Shield in the game would be pretty cool

cunning mural
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the fell soldiers use this shield, its a fairly rare drop. but its not that good compared to craftable shields

dire marsh
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yeah

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but it would be cool for like tanks

sullen crater
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True.

cunning mural
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idk I feel like tank isn't that.. playable of a style

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like depending on the style of tank, it may be more or less successful.
I feel like shielding enemies isn't usually much of an option though.

tawny hinge
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Vukah brawlers are really likely to stun you with their 3 hit combo if you're blocking using a "block" shield at the level you're fighting them

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and if you eat all 3 hits, i'll do maybe 30% 😂

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tanking in enshrouded for the foreseeable future is simply getting hit.

left crescent
cunning mural
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A basic sword!

left crescent
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Some people love the simple life

cunning mural
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my brother asked me my favorite weapon in monster hunter, and I was just like "...I hate all of them, is there anything Normal?"

left crescent
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Longsword, Sword and Shield, and Dual Blades have a few models that are pretty basic

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Even Greatsword has a couple that are simple, but large

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Lance too, thinking about it.

cunning mural
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to be fair it was "of what he had" and it was all boney stuff that did high damage

tawny hinge
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okay, this isn't completely apples to apples but its damn close. I can finally show that greatswords are kinda fd up.

image.png
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Why is greatswords hitting for 700 on attack 1 and 934 on attack 2 meanwhile hammers do 960 with 1+2 added together

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its insane. THe rest of the weapon basically doesn't function

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but greatsword attack attack block cancel repeat over and over is probably the best melee damage for downing a boss. AND the window needed is really small to get the little rotation in and roll away. Hammer/axe really need their spinning attack. but that costs stamina

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I can finally rest. I have all the strength weapons, or at least I think all of them now done. Plugging in daggers will be very very easy. Ranged may take a minute to figure out how to organize since they choose ammo

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for reference, level 42 drak in goldrock have right around 1k health. so if you roll up with greatsword of the north, you have a 53% chance to crit. Actual coin toss the level 42 evaporates with one strike in front of your eyes

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Level 45 fell "shieldmen" may have 11k? some of their sword counterparts have 5k.

I'll dig further and see how long it takes other weapons to kill but when you have to chip through that much health, being able to crit for like 2k sounds good.

And I now realize I have to figure out how food interacts with the damage calc

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level 45 fell bugs have 850hp 😂

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what the hell

gray pivot
cunning mural
gray pivot
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That or the shield of light with the stats of the sunpiercer

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Would match my sword then

cunning mural
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ah, Nova?

gray pivot
misty sedge
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Shields would benefit so heavily from weapon vanity

cunning mural
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I also would love a dyable shield

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its a shame we can't paint a shield at all

misty sedge
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I still use the Brazen Bull shield due to aesthetic preferences, I'd go further back and use the Hero's shield probably exclusively if I could

gray pivot
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Yeah it's pretty nice

cunning mural
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I find it weird that, in the veilwater update, they removed a shield

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"The Flame Shield" from the nomad highlands is just flat out gone

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they moved its model to the "riptide" shield

gray pivot
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Flame shield?

cunning mural
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yeah, it wasn't anything special it was just a shield

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but it was the ONLY shield you could get from a random drop in a chest

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sorry, only shield you could exclusively get from a random drop in a chest

half furnace
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its because vorgoth didnt have a shield 😛

cunning mural
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I think hero shield and shield of light can be in chests, but usually you craft them

gray pivot
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Oh yeah that's a nice looking one

cunning mural
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idk if the flame shield was "vorgoths" but you're making me wanna check now...

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but its such a pain to load older versions of enshrouded

gray pivot
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I need to find one and stash away just in case

half furnace
cunning mural
gray pivot
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Oh it's gone like removed from the game?

cunning mural
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no no... its gone
it got deleted from my chests. it just flat out doesn't exist as an item anymore

gray pivot
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Wow

cunning mural
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its weird cause they're usually super good about that

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but now I really wonder what happens if your character had one of those shields on them, during the update

gray pivot
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I think they shouldn't do that. If they take something out then don't let it drop anymore but let people keep what they have

cunning mural
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there are a few weird updates to the game... like they removed the "old doors"

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I miss the old doors fell_cry

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they had holes in them, that let a little light through, and made amazing barn doors compared to the new "crude doors"

half furnace
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are they making a new update with all the removed items? wish they thought twice about removing stuff

cunning mural
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UNLESS, hold on... can we.. can I have a door as a weapon?

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let me bash my enemies with a door

half furnace
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a very secret door maybe

gray pivot
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WWE style

misty sedge
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door shield

cunning mural
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I'll accept door shield

gray pivot
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or whatever the wrestling acronym is these days

half furnace
cunning mural
misty sedge
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I've also seen people encounter a glitch where they are apparently holding a meat skewer in their weapon hand and it won't go away

cunning mural
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I have heard of that glitch but don't know what causes it

misty sedge
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I think joke weapons could be fun, like a pie shield and an actual meat skewer weapon

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Not a priority of course

cunning mural
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Pizza shield

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or give us Drak Chakrams.... and also Pizza Chakrams

misty sedge
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pizza in general

cunning mural
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Pizza shield, Pizza axe, Pizza Chakram, Pizza spell.. no idk what it does either but I wanna channel a pizza

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omg wait it could be a bone channel that throws slices of pizza's at enemies, with some burning and piercing damage

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Pizza arrows

misty sedge
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The flatbread model would actually already make a really good shield lol

cunning mural
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..Eternal Pizza arrows fell_smort

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the flatbread is an oval, it totally would be a good shield, if it was just a bit larger

naive matrix
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Frisbees as a blunt damage alternative to bone arrows

cunning mural
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lowkey I want a rock

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literally a throwing rock, that costs 1 stone to make 1 rock, and then I can throw it for 1 damage... but if it hits something in the head its an instant stun

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idc what I hit, level 300 billion dragon? if its hit in the head, I want it stunned

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especially cause of how funny it'd be to see someone lob a rock at a dragon's head and then an entire dragon falls to the floor

pure bobcat
cunning mural
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thats also not a bad idea

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is terrain placable if you hold it? or only blocks... probably only blocks

pure bobcat
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Oh, wait, that would need to be checked...

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I love crafting in games as much as ... no, probably more than most people, but a 1 to 1 crafting recipe that essentially renames/repurposes an item feels weird even to me...

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However if terrain is placeable from the hand it might be needed.

cunning mural
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it is not placable, so honestly yeah they could make stone terrain a throwable weapon

pure bobcat
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The benefit of crafting a throwable rock is that you could use the alternate ingredient system to craft the same throwable from any rock, but on the other hand most throwables don't stack very high.

cunning mural
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this also means later stones could do more damage

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as silly as that'd be

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and to be fair, I don't want the rock to do much damage, like... 1 to 5

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I just want to stun a dragon by smacking it in the face with a stone

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and if they update the stealth then they could make it so the rocks can be used to distract enemies/lure them away

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does this mean that "Ice" should also be throwable and do half ice half blunt damage to enemies?

pure bobcat
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No, but snowballs should.

cunning mural
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snowballs are too soft to do damage

pure bobcat
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Hmm... that is a fair point.

cunning mural
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until we put rocks inside deercat_cozy

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but stones doing various damage, and Ice doing ice/blunt damage... honestly, silly as it is, I like the idea of it

half furnace
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we need eternal snowball

cunning mural
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mostly though I want to stun enemies, imagine one of those scavengers with the acid cleavers running at you... and you just throw a rock at its head and its stunned, now you can merciless strike or run away

pure bobcat
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The way I would balance it is : the first throw of a rock or snowball or snow-rock etc. (or maybe first throw to the face) for a given enemy is a guaranteed stun, because the enemy is just so surprised that you would do this. Subsequent hits to the same enemy have an increasing chance to be blocked/brushed off.

cunning mural
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I will accept blocked, and... how about a cooldown, so they can't be stun-locked

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like they'll get an "immune/resistant" to rock-face-stun for a minute or something

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cause I still wanna use this as a strat against the dragon, its like killing ganondorf using a bottle

pure bobcat
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Right, that is the main concern that something so cheap could stun-lock. I'm not a fan of the no stun-lock philosophy, but I think it should be limited to much higher-tier stuff.

cunning mural
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honestly, if no bosses were stunnable... except the dragon, and the dragon was only stunnable with specifically the weakest level 1 rock... or even a snowball

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I would be happy with that, I just love the idea of stunning the dragon

naive matrix
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I suppose players will be gobsmacked, that the final boss can be cheesed with such stunning results fell_giga_chad

pure bobcat
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No, I think bosses in general should have the same vulnerabilities as normal enemies of their type. Otherwise you get into the problem that some JRPGs have that many, many builds and items are de-valued because they don't work on bosses, which are supposed to be the most difficult challenges (i.e. the time when you most need your chosen strategies to work).

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So since most enemies can be stunned in some way, bosses should be as well.

cunning mural
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the dragon specifically requires stun arrows, which is so lame and annoying to craft

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but if a single rock, one of the earliest possible weapons that most people might not even realize was a weapon... worked on the dragon.... its just... let me have fun games again, I want games to be fun and silly and whimsical

pure bobcat
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Well, or parrying really consistently. (Also, are lightning spells viable for stunning it?)

cunning mural
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let me do stupid stuff, punish me for doing stupid stuff... but let me do really stupid stuff and reward me for doing it

naive matrix
cunning mural
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"Are you trying to hit the dragon with a rock?"
"NOW YOU GIT OFF MY LAWN DRAGON"
"that won't-"
Dragon insta-stunned and falls to the arena

half furnace
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like a jester class? playing a instrument while fighting dragon stuns him aswell 😛

cunning mural
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I love that Ganondorf was weak to Bottles... and fishing poles... and bug nets

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like, who is gonna try that?... well someone did, and it was really stupid and they were rewarded for it

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cause games should be fun

naive matrix
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You know what they say, it's the litter things that count

young acorn
bronze hollow
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Max level freebies, if anyone needs

Screenshot_606.png
reef bane
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hi guys, anyone have mythic want lvl 50 pls?

cold crag
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Hi guys, my buddies and I had run the "hollows rooms" I dunno the english word for this dungeon, anyway it was the one in the dark woods, green necropol filled with skeleton !
We are 5 with 1 Tank, 3 DPS and myself as an healer.
My question is : how the aggro works ? because even if the tank take all the point to build threat at some point even if I do nothing some skeletons (Specially the red scythe one, and the wizard) rush to me through my friend and come directly to kiss me XD
Can someone explain how this works, if the aggro doesn't work on those mobs or just the aggro feature not work well ?
Thanks guys !

sullen crater
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Pufff, can't help there, as I've only soloed them, but the English name is Hollow Halls. I presume they just set them to be extra aggressive to keep the whole party on their toes, but I could be wrong.

fallen obsidian
trim sun
bronze hollow
reef bane
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got it yes 😉 thx

trim sun
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Nice!

cold crag
tawny hinge
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kinda insane that the part of the game specifically built for group play, the one that warns you its gonna be hard solo, intentionally invalidates some of the skill selections. but only from one of the trees/styles of play.

runic tree
stark lake
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Threat skills don't work in halls? IF thats meant to be group content thats crazy half the point of having a group is for somebody to tank lol. I've only been soloing them which is not great (mainly because it takes so long)

vital nest
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Is there a way to roll or dodge in combat when I’m trying to melee fight a enemy or is it a skill i unlock?

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I kinda just spammed attacked and jumped but I’m not sure if i can roll or something

stark lake
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You can dodge roll or blink (talent) but not while attacking only between attacks

fathom hare
heavy wind
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ctrl on pc. dodge also doesn't give iframes, so you can still get hit mid-dodge

tawny hinge
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I have food, faction, and range specific damage figured out now. I think thats everything for how the calculator works. Gems are next and then i'm settled on how damage works.

need a volunteer to record attacks at 60fps and count frames so we can figure out dps 😂 my pc plays at about 25-30 fps

tawny hinge
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ticks for 3 every time on the deathgazer axe. ticks between 2 and 4 on megaladon greatsword.

lasts a very short time. Doing what sure seems like 35? 40 damage total. not per second.

image.png
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confirmed that crits do not cause the effect to stack. unsure if it resets or adds to the duration. the damage is so low, its irrelevant to actual ttk

elfin apex
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Hi everyone,

How come I can't trigger the necromancer skill with fireballs? It only seems to work with wands although the skill says "magic weapon".
The lack of precision in the terminology bugs me haha

tawny hinge
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it could be a bug too. it unfortunately unclear in multiple ways

pure bobcat
# tawny hinge kinda insane that the part of the game specifically built for group play, the on...

I'm no expert since I haven't played co-op, but are we certain this is intentional rather than a bug or an unexpected consequence of high enemy density in the Hollow Halls? For example, how high can that "max enemies attacking at once" difficulty setting go, and if people were to crank it to the max in a co-op game would it change anything? (Because if it's a per-player thing having it set too low could inadvertently break all aggro manipulation above a certain enemy density. It would be wierd if it were per-player, but might be worth testing...)

tawny hinge
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no we aren't certain. 😄

cunning mural
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someone gave me a modded sword...

image.png
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I can't wait to put a level 50 gem of bleeding on it

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the legendary sword... of cutting

fair aspen
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is water aura worth for ranger/bow character?

fluid light
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(soloplayer) it's okay, if you need more health, but it require too much skill points, in my opinion. The skill water aura + the skills before.

peak ether
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When I get hit as a solo ranger, I just panic, jump up onto something, and spam potions. Wouldn't be worth diving into the blue skill nodes

tawny hinge
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😂

heavy wind
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Does anyone know what counter battery considers 'ranged enemies'?

wild cypress
heavy wind
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thanks

wild cypress
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Now that I've nearly beat the game as a dagger user, I'm wondering if I wanna follow my heart and try the other unloved weapon - 2 handed swords as a heavy knight - or broaden my skill set and understanding of the game by trying a mage. At least I feel comfortable with the drawbacks of each, but I genuinely have not had trouble deciding like this in some while. Both have appeals.

tawny hinge
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are you starting a new character or re-speccing?

wild cypress
# tawny hinge are you starting a new character or re-speccing?

New character; the idea is that they'll benefit from the base and stored goods of my established character, while my max level character will be able to visit other servers to help folks, to farm and to RP. Eventually I'll do the same for other characters as I max them out.

tawny hinge
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trying to use greatsword from level 1 is going to be a reasonable challenge compared to mage. Mage has a ton of "support" in the game from level 1. The wand you CRAFT does ice damage so you are basicaly immortal against "trash mobs" as you can just back up and keep firing. While they're stuck in a perpetual slow from the wand.

Greatsword on the other hand isn't a 2h weapon as far as the game is concerned so none of your gear that benefits 2h will increase its damage. (theres one pair of greatsword gloves in the game)

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You'll still be able to beat the game with greatswords with some effort. But magic is going to do great damage without any real extra effort.

Greatsword is going to ask you to spend quite a bit of skill points on dead skills in order to keep pumping up its damage 😂

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And id still say go greatsword. They have great models for the most part and if you can get past the akward moveset, you're going to tear up bosses.

wild cypress
tawny hinge
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yeah well...... daggers have the exact same damage scaling as one handed and two handed strength weapons. Except, I believe, they get a "dagger damage" skill that gives 15% or something which is obnoxiously powerful

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bows, wands, and staves (the ranged option) get the same 5% bonus per stat point but also get free bonus damage on top of it.

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you might actually get upset if you pick mage.

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cause its gonna be easy if your last run was daggers without a ton of bow usage

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bow and magic right now are pretty nuts

wild cypress
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My slight worry is if I do tank, then have to transition to mage, I'll have gotten sloppy about my damage evasion behavior. XD

tawny hinge
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possibly. Go do mage.

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you wont be upset with how quickly you can breeze through a lot of the game.

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I'm told theres some mid game slump or somethign. But I tried mage for the first time in the past few days. I beat the scav matron at level 3 with the cloth gear you craft before you get any npcs, the white wand you craft and a staff I looted and upgraded to 6 at the blacksmith

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If this is post nerf, i can't imagine how good they were befor I started playing

#

you get to bypass entire mechanics in the game that are only there to make "hard enemies" more "interesting" for melee players

#

if you end up going great sword just ping me if you have questions about if something works or why its weird. i've spent more time than most trying to understand the strength weapons, how damage is calculated, and what makes a weapon good or bad for killing bosses.

supple eagle
#

2h swords are the worst. The animation is so slow, you just get eaten on the wind-up

wild cypress
#

The difficulty is the appeal for me. fell_cry

pure bobcat
supple eagle
#

And as blumeneck proves, 2h swords are not that slow

tawny hinge
# pure bobcat You must be _very_ good at dodging, since I assume the Matron would insta-kill y...

you get to just walk around at a pretty far range. she tries to spit on you but if you dont stand in it it doesn't hurt very much. Whenever I got behind her I switched to staff and did my strongest spell I looted for backstab damage

Health also isn't level based unless youre spending skills on con. I spent all my skills on damage and put whatever 2 rings i had that gave flat hp. It's something I doubt would be possible on a sword and board build, at least with a white sword like my wand was. Both wand and staff have built in damage multipliers so they do 10%-20% more damage than whats shown on the item

🤷‍♂️ I definitely wasn't trying to be elitist or a braggart. But trying to highlight how good mage is early game, the place where many players say they're at their weakest

tawny hinge
pure bobcat
#

Hmm. I need to test this now. I was under the impression that being hit by the poison, even for an instant, inflicts the full poison timer which will nearly kill a non-tanky character, but I might be misremembering since I haven't fought one recently.

wild cypress
#

Some people dismiss the poison resist buff in the green tree but face tanking those nasty matrons makes me feel more radical than a kid in rollerblades and visor shades with a spikey mullet.

pure bobcat
#

I do think mage overall relies heavily on consecutive dodging or consecutive parrying, and since I'm not great at those things, for me a large part of the "difficulty" of any build comes down to "how many attacks must I somehow survive before killing the enemies" minus "how many attacks can I absorb (with HP)".

tawny hinge
pure bobcat
tawny hinge
# pure bobcat I do think mage overall relies heavily on consecutive dodging or consecutive par...

I think one thing that mage first or only players often dont understand is nothing about their kit uses stamina. so they always have a dodge up.

AIming a bow stops stam regen and every single strength skill uses a large amount of stamina. not to mention being melee asks for dodges more often. So while yes, mages may taake a ton of damage, they almost always have a defensive tool up and ready to use. Rarely or never are they stuck unable to defend themselves on the first misstep. Its really counter to what you'd think. So often playing a melee character you have no choice but to walk (not run or hop) out of a mob of enemies while being hit cause you got too low on stamina

#

and yes, i think charging a staff stops stam regen, but wand swinging doesnt if you're worried about your stamina and the staff never asks you to line up a headshot

pure bobcat
tawny hinge
#

and you're probably right that hordes are tough. I found fireball to be super effective but I kinda had to walk in an arc to group enemies up sometimes

#

and melee (non greatsword) just gets to hop in there swinging, healing up and killing large groups of trash mobs

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I think its positionally better in a meta to be the guy whos much better at killing the harder monsters that drop legendary gear than the easy monsters that drop crafting mats

pure bobcat
tawny hinge
#

so when I say mages are in a really good spot, I'm more meaning that. Any problem they have with large groups is supplemented by the fact they'll have a whole arsenal of every end game weapon sooner than someone trying to play sword and shield will

pure bobcat
#

Yeah, that is a fair point.

tawny hinge
#

the shield part of sword and shield is so bad, I'm using one of the 'wards' from the alchimest

#

SAD

#

why the hell dont shields have passive benefits? The ward gives damage resist AND mana regen????? Staves have passive mana regen on some of their perks?!??!

#

put passive stam regen on a shield. cowards

wild cypress
#

Mild agree, shields are overlooked and wards are in some cases better even as a melee player.

tawny hinge
pure bobcat
#

In fairness, the wards and shields have fairly similar stats right now right? The damage resist seems to come at the cost of slightly lower base stats, so presumably this means that something is fundamentally wrong with the balance of blocking, parrying, and stamina management?

wild cypress
#

Shields are def better if you are the playstyle that holds up your shield blocking very often and at duration. But if you're a parry geek then it's hard to argue for them. Also where are the magic resist shields?

pure bobcat
#

I mean, I use the wards for the mana regen and light source, but mana regen is presumably less valuable for melee...

wild cypress
#

I do dislike that wards with specific resistances are level locked; I should be able to get a high fire resist ward for endgame if I want it. Just a wish, but still.

tawny hinge
trail cypress
tawny hinge
pure bobcat
wild cypress
#

A ward and a shield with poison resist would be neat, but so would more mobs using poison. :>

trail cypress
#

also

pure bobcat
#

Given that hemotoxin is now a thing, I would be careful what you wish for...

trail cypress
#

wards are kinda "only good for parrying as a penalty"
well, duh, with blocking being this bad anyways - who cares?

tawny hinge
#

another nail in the coffin for shields is the end game shields have (dealers choice) 268 or 321 parry power

Greatsword gloves give you 36 parry power, the greatsword in my inventory has 273 built in. So 309?? that's 12 parry power less than the one hand shield and i'm going to be doing 2x, maybe more, to bosses.

#

shields are absolute garbo right now. and there are maybe 3 reasonable one hand weapons for damage across all 3 weapons types.

I dont know how I got on my soap box but i'll try and sit down

pure bobcat
#

I would love to see wards have more of a magic + utility identity than they already do. Also, if anything, parrying should be balanced to be superior for (non-tank) melee and daggers, but not for everyone. Because those are the weapons that can take advantage of the parry-stun with Merciless attacks. So the other archetypes (like, say, magic) should be balanced more toward block rather than parry. Especially since mages and archers have some other stun options.

tawny hinge
#

I forget about multishot stun arrows

#

Holy crap bows are busted

trail cypress
tawny hinge
#

headshots do 2x damage instead of hte listed 1.5x

the perk skill shot just gives you a 50% damage bonus to all shots, and has nothing to do with head shots right now.

pure bobcat
wild cypress
tawny hinge
#

merciless is in a weird spot to. right now its kinda weird cause you can take damage during it so its use cases are slim. if you couldn't take damage during it'd be busted...

trail cypress
tawny hinge
wild cypress
#

Rollstab is my name, critting is my game, let's gooooo!

tawny hinge
pure bobcat
wild cypress
#

(I still favor poison everywhere I can, too, even if it's wimpy)

trail cypress
tawny hinge
#

that reminds me, I need to figure out where in the damage calculation backstab is....... it doesn't come up much but if it's added at the end with weakness that it might be worth playing to stun and backstab elites

#

I just tested a bunch of gems today. I cannot believe how bad bleeding is

wild cypress
tawny hinge
#

it was stunning how bad it was

trail cypress
#

as it's per swing

#

like

#

the only usecase for bleeding gem is... earlygame misarable +dmg to let your plundge attack finish the bugs or something?

wild cypress
#

One thing I actually fully dislike in this game is the grind to get a low gem high leveled - Gem of Toxicity in my case. Thousands and thousands of Archaic Essence is more than most players are going to ever bother with. I'm still doing it just to see how it all pans out, but man...it's the least fun thing in the game for me hehe.

trail cypress
tawny hinge
#

i've found 3 "good" gems so far

wild cypress
trail cypress
#

Hopeful embers are underrated btw

#

or whatever the name is

lunar thicket
tawny hinge
#

agility significantly reduces the demand for stam regen gear on melee characters. Dodge + attack gives 75 stam back. Dodging takes 20 stam. No cooldown that I found

Soul reaping drops a vial when they die. The vial can be atatcked (which triggers life steal and on death perks when you kill it). My game was healing me 2550 when i broke the vial it was insane.

And I think gem of focused light is legit good for trying to pick off a badguy as the fight starts or to get a tick of bonus damage when you're lining up a headshot. I had like 8 or 10 dex and it was almost doubling the damage of my bow

tawny hinge
wild cypress
tawny hinge
#

yeah well gems in general are poor so when ones decent... its usable by default. try the "aim or blocking gives cold damge one"

#

its insane how useless it is.

#

It will only charge up the damage if you're not blocking attacks.

trail cypress
#

yeah, that one is a pure clown gem

wild cypress
#

Staying still and vulnerable for as long as 3 stacks takes on that light gem is just unmanageable for my daggergal. If the range was better it'd be great, but as it is the air+ranged mobs attack so often that I just get whammied while waiting for stacks. It's only been useful as a sniping gem in my playstyle, and I don't have the bow buffs to make it really shine (hur hur).

#

Sicklescythes made that gem to ruin our lives lol.

trail cypress
#

btw

lunar thicket
#

best gems :

Lycathropy (melee build, situational and hard to trigger but OP) alternative is battlemania OP as well but you need elixir
corruption > storm eye (great for AoE or bonus damage that aren't too conditional)
Bloodlust / soul reaping (survivability)
Agility (great to save some stamina I guess)
Overpowering (niche but good to have vs enemies who constantly block)
Puncturing (if you play daggers it's very good)
Necromancy (Op if still not fixed cause it create an army of summons)

trail cypress
#

what's your take on Kick?
I saw ppl talking about it being "almost mandatory", but I find it a crutch.
There are situations it's good, but most of the time, delayed attack deals enough stagger to interrupt enemy action by itself - so it's good enough

lunar thicket
#

just from my experience

wild cypress
half furnace
pure bobcat
lunar thicket
#

I jsut hope they fix the hitbox issues

#

something you kick enemies but it decide that it doesn't hit for no reason

lunar thicket
pure bobcat
#

Although it might be worth testing something else with Gem of Focused Light : Does a 1s draw speed bow (the slow kind) get one stack always when using auto lock-on? Presumably it should... (unless that doesn't count as "aiming" which would be sad).

wild cypress
lunar thicket
trail cypress
tawny hinge
#

its insane that magic and ranged/dagger's 3rd damage food is on meat which lasts 40 minutes or more and melee's 3rd damage food is popcorn. which lasts 4 minutes. 😢

wild cypress
tawny hinge
#

well yeah, but consider that not only is popcorn only 4% vs the other characters getting a 6% one. THe other characters get it on MEAT so they get meat, water, and shroom/veggie and all 3 give damage bonuses

wild cypress
#

I mean I always had 3 long term foods going from my mid 20s so maybe you're missing a food type?

tawny hinge
#

where melee basically has to take the 4th food perk (a green perk mind you) in order to be able to eat meat and keep damage

wild cypress
#

And more generally, I've never wanted for damage except Fell Dragon Youngling.

tawny hinge
#

well some of the fell shieldmen in the last areas have 10k hp

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they're not the easiest to take down for me

misty sedge
#

I have it purely for style. It does damage, sure, and I guess if your dex is decently high it probably helps with the stun bar, but it barely pushes enemies and the "stun" is... Quite pathetic

wild cypress
misty sedge
#

That's pretty much how it feels lol

#

I do love kicking the bugs though

fair aspen
#

skills with magic weapon only affects wands and staves? Or weapons with elemental damage to?

half furnace
haughty holly
#

@solid mango Taking the convo here, so I can post pictures of my Skill tree. I went heavily into Battlemage, which has a lot of wand-related skills in it. I'm only recently diving into Warrior, but I'm enjoying the effect it's having on my 1H melee weapons! Highly recommend Blink, Evasion Attack, Double Jump, and Updraft, as early as possible. Water Aura is really7 good, as well, even if you're playing Solo; it gives you a passive regen on top of your normal Health Regeneration from foods or armor.

Enshrouded_Build_A.jpg Enshrouded_Build_B.jpg
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as a 1H melee spellblade, I'd also rewcommend working your way over to Fire Aura. Passive fire damage to Fell enemies within hittin' range is a huge boon

half furnace
supple eagle
#

On gems recs above - on a Melee Build or possibly even Mage, Retaliation. I've had multiple instances of several lower-HP mobs of the area converge on me just to die on my shield lol.

#

And Gem of Fracturing is nice too, triggers a lot - but kind of combines best with the various blunt arrows which don't seem all that good, slightly better on undead is all.

wild cypress
pure bobcat
#

There are some quite powerful blunt 2H weapons though, right? Fracturing might be decent on them... but personally I don't feel like it triggers nearly enough (only on kill, and not even every kill).

pure bobcat
young acorn
half furnace
pure bobcat
ocean turtle
#

2H Greatsword has highest poise damage that can make enemies stagger the most right?
Anyone know how poise work in this game?

pure bobcat
half furnace
young acorn
sour parcel
half furnace
sour parcel
tender temple
#

Trying to build a wand guy. My friend are dagger/bow and bow/? . How should i spec myself? Big armor and water aura?

supple eagle
#

Wand is likely best for dodge builds, not armor builds?

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So Mage stuff + some Dexterity stuff?

stark lake
#

I've been doing battlemage spreading into trickster, wand and board with melee for backup

half furnace
stark lake
#

Wand is much easier once you get double damage procs, health when killing with magic etc

onyx vine
#

Sorry if this has been asked-- does anyone know how staff damage works? So for example, I have Staff of Guidance equipped which does Fire Damage. If I cast Frost Bolt or Chain Lightning with that staff, is it also adding fire damage to the attack?

pure bobcat
onyx vine
#

Awesome- thanks!

supple eagle
#

Most of the wording on spells or ammo is "+X % (of base weapon damage)"

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So a fire staff casting lightning spell should actually deal more fire damage than lightning, unless the lightning damage is +100% or higher.

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Others add a flat amount (mostly, the various bleed or burn procs.)

pure bobcat
#

I think this may be the reason why bows and staves have their base stat called "Power" rather than "Damage", which always puzzled me.

supple eagle
#

I have only used a staff for like 5 minutes, so I could be wrong. Basing it on how arrows work and my recollection of using my eternal ice spell with a fire staff

cunning mural
#

ranged weapons have "Inherent" damage, aka it copies the ammo.
Bone arrows = blunt, eternal ice = ice, most arrows = pierce
Spells are self explainatory on what element they are.

celest girder
#

How good are the aura skills? How high can we get int?

pure bobcat
celest girder
#

Ty I’ll give water a go with the combination of some healing ring and see how I go Ty

gray pivot
#

With arrows, is there a way to arrange them in the order you want them to show when you draw the bow?

pure bobcat
tawny hinge
onyx vine
#

Yep! should be good now- thanks for checking!

supple eagle
#

Or in order of when they entered inventory, which should match the above unless moving stuff around a lot.

tawny hinge
#

Daggers appear to be melee and "dagger"

so you can eat rice (21% melee damage), a veggie (21%dagger damage), and a 3rd dagger damage option to really crank up your damage. Having one foot in each camp allows them to possibly double their damage by picking and choosing buffs, gloves, and helm. i'm pretty surprised.

wraith silo
tawny hinge
#

Strength is the only thing i've found

#

If you put on melee damage gloves, it works

#

The only two other things worth verifying are the crit chance and flat damage from red tree. Although the flat damage is unnecessary because you're already going to go over there for 30% more pierce.If you're using daggers anyway

#

So it just becomes a question of whether or not you grab the critical chamce

supple eagle
#

Might be daggers need the double dip to compete?

wild cypress
#

It appears that only the weapon's intrinsic damage gets the buff from "melee" component of rice, where the dagger damage boosting food seems to raise it by my dagger damage after the Dex bonus is applied. Got like 25 extra damage on a swing with rice, but nearly 100 after also adding the dagger damage boost food. Not as scientific as yours but worth noting, was using multiple dummies and cleared/re-added the buffs a few times in different orders to check.

#

Interestingly +melee dmg boost didn't boost my crit at all, but +dagger dmg boosted it reasonably.

tawny hinge
tawny hinge
#

Great eye

#

Weapon specific boosts are added at the same time as weakness. So they both multiply EVERYthing. 15% dagger on food AND a perk is massive compared to what one hand has access to

wild cypress
tawny hinge
torn pollen
#

Is there a reason why the Fell Impaler Bow has sneaky as a 3rd perk? From my understanding you can't sneak attack with bows, and if it's not actively in your hands, you don't get the bonus from it.

wild cypress
supple eagle
torn pollen
# supple eagle You can backstab with bows.

Does it increase backstab damage too? I thought sneak attack was it's own skill similar to merciless strike. And there is a seperate perk that increases backstab damage, so why not use that perk?

supple eagle
#

No idea. I thought Backstab was Sneak Attack. Procs on melee or bows, heck probably spells too?

#

And so far as I know, backstab is a flat % bonus to the base damage of the attack, does not seem to raise damage of any gem procs or the like.

torn pollen
#

Sneak attack is one of the core skills you can unlock. You have to sneak behind an enemy with a melee weapon, and press E to deal 900% damage. Backstab is just a bonus % for attacking from behind. So backstab perk makes sense for a bow but sneak attack doesn't make sense. afaik

primal rapids
#

Sneak attack doesn't work with bows

#

Backstab works with everything when youre behind your target

#

Also, i personallu dont like daggers at all and wish they would get a rework as a standalone weapon. Id love to see animation overhaul more than anything.

The current animation "teleports" you frame by frame toward your target but the actual attack frame window that locks you into the given attack is very long, which opens you up to taking hits from other targets.

The lack of any splash attack makes it tremendously lack luster. Id love to see the attacks reworked to something similar to thief from guild wars 2, where attacks can be weaved with different types and chain into either AOE or higher dmg single target hits.

torn pollen
primal rapids
#

Can you show a screenshot

#

I dont remember the exact wording

#

Im fairly certain it just increases dmg behind the target

wild cypress
wild cypress
#

I genuinely think it must be a relic from earlier iterations of the game or something. So @torn pollen yeah, bug report it!

flat trail
#

Does anyone have a fully updated list of all the weapons for Wake of Water, specifically the melee weapons?

wild cypress
flat trail
#

okieee

primal rapids
#

Yeah looks like a bug

#

I wonder if they copy pasted the skills from a melee weapon and forgot to update that part

torn pollen
#

Bug report submitted. Thanks for confirming my suspicions!

wild cypress
tawny hinge
coral juniper
#

They should add summon spells to the game. or do necromancy. Like you can reserve X mana to reanimate an enemy or summon a dude

cunning mural
half furnace
coral juniper
cunning mural
#

not quite "reanimated" but, there's the "skull summoning vessels" and "gem of lesser necromancy"

coral juniper
#

yeah i do know there are some skill points and the gems, but it feels like an afterthought than an actual school of magic in the game

half furnace
#

wanna summon undead dragons eh? i feel ya

cunning mural
#

to be fair, I am unsure what it would look like to summon an undead, right now we just pokeball and bam, mc-bones

coral juniper
#

yeah i think arguably the easier way to implement it is with necromancy. Like enemy animations/ai already exist so it would be easier to make them friendly than to design new summons/skills/animations for new abilities

cunning mural
#

most likely, if they added "necromancy" it would be to the point you'd cast it, and nearby humanoid corpses lost their loot but spawned skeletons in their place, and wolves turn into Hollow Hounds

primal rapids
#

Id like to see a necromancer, assassin, and beastmaster dedicated trees.

coral juniper
#

yeah i feel like its rare games let you go for the full solo leveling experience, but i've definitely seen it done. Give me an army of scav berserkers

primal rapids
#

Actual pet class style rather than whatever tf that dumb tree is attempting

#

I got a bone to pick with whoever does skilltree development at keen

#

Its literally my biggest and one of like..4 legitimate complaints I have. Otherwise I think enshrouded is quite literally one of the best games ever made.

#

But it really needs more dedicated builds to allow more nuanced play and rpg immersion.

#

The archery is amazing. Staff and wand are great. I personally hate 2her but dw Swords would be nice. Id love a good spear/yari style.

#

Needs an actual assassination tree with stealth and dagger combat..

#

And the food buffs and a lot of the stuff from the athletic tree they just gotta roll into default because it forces meta building and prevents people from trying different stuff out

coral juniper
#

yeah i mean, its sorta just boils down a few paths. 1h, 2h, magic, Ranged, maybe daggers (usually just lumped with range)

primal rapids
#

Exactly

coral juniper
#

and im pretty sure the 1h and 2h endgame builds are like 2 nodes different

primal rapids
#

Wand/staff support for funsies and aoe, 1her, bow

#

And most 2h builds are just double jump slam spamming

#

The beastmaster tree is literally worthless outside of attempting a dagger build

#

But if they made timeable beasts, like maybe 3. A dps and a tank and a hybrid style.. and then you could mix it with other stuff.. like a mage could go beastmaster and get a bear tank.

coral juniper
#

I think the main challange is how do you make summoning beasts / minions balanced. The only thing i can think of ATM is fairly high mana reservation. That way you actually have to build stats/gear to support their summoning rather than just auto include on every build

#

speaking of mana, i'm considering swapping over to battlemage to try out. Im actually far enough into the game it might be viable.

pure bobcat
# coral juniper I think the main challange is how do you make summoning beasts / minions balance...

Mana reservation is a good idea, although going overboard with this risks the opposite problem : making summons an auto-include on every low mana use build, but difficult for high mana use builds (i.e. mage/caster). Because gear is not attribute-locked (which I think is a good thing btw) and the 1-point skill perks that give Spirit attribute points are straightforward to get, a fairly high maximum Mana should be attainable whether you intend to cast spells or not.

It would also give a neat use to healing specializations in solo play, or make them more worthwhile even in co-op by increasing the number of friendly entities on the field.

quaint spindle
#

my army of skull

image.png
coral juniper
coral juniper
gray pivot
#

I think it's kinda bad when you have to wait till later into the game in order to try a build like battlemage. I think that's a telling sign that they need to look at balancing that so it's playable from the start.

boreal field
#

Why do you have to wait? I've played a battle mage since day 1 at level 1. You just need to learn timing. It's absolutely viable to play. A little frustrating when you mess up your dodge timings but still playable.

jagged lava
#

Hello everyone , i have a question about wand , more about the élément they got , i have one with contandante damage , with the wand is it magical or physical damage ?

half furnace
jagged lava
#

i dont know the englsih word for that , its like stunning

trim sun
half furnace
jagged lava
#

okay , so i should use other that this one okay

tawny hinge
supple eagle
#

Summon fix: The health bar of your summons is tied to your mana. High mana, they have higher health max and regen. Low mana reduces both max and regen.

trim sun
supple eagle
#

Put in some perks to improve this for summon focused buolds.

trim sun
#

I just can't see agreeing with thats all the 2h weaps are good for

tawny hinge
#

No, im not being sarcastic. Jump slam does 50% more damage. Greatsword basic attack gets a 50% damage modifier. Its actually zero extra damage. The double jump then is a very small increase for greatsword. You aren't missing a whole lot by not using it

#

GS melts enemies. And jump slam is a tremendous dps loss for thr weapon

trim sun
#

I know its not a fan favorite but I really like the GS and have had 0 issues using it from lvl27 to 45

tawny hinge
#

I think its under the radar and its the best melee option.

trim sun
#

Best for the fun I like to have atleast.

#

That up swing on the 2 combo is a jaw breaker

tawny hinge
#

The upswing is the damage damage as the 2nd downswing if you just attack super fast! You can go down, down, up for a reeeaaalllly high damage attack window

trim sun
#

Locks anything but main bosses really

tawny hinge
#

Its like 5.5 hammer attacks. Maybe more

trim sun
#

I never go for a 3 . Might have to adjust for a down down up

tawny hinge
#

Obviously the cc on down/up repeat is crazy

#

But against bosses, they whiff, you pop around back for the backstabbing damage boost

#

You can get some lucky crits and do 8 or 10k in 3 hits

trim sun
#

Target lock and blink to behind

tawny hinge
#

I tried blinking theough the monstrosity today, it didnt work. Maybe I did it wrong or hes too fat

trim sun
#

The misunderstood monster is slightly different but still works

#

Not misunderstood lol

trim sun
tawny hinge
#

I dont have very many max level ones yet but I got a greatsword or rivalry. 4/5 perks are usable. Merciless is a waste unfortunately.

What about you?

trim sun
#

Same and love it

#

Found a 45 the other day finally

#

Gold laced is good too with alot of Cut damage

tawny hinge
#

Id have to look at my sheet, im sure a better option exists but its really really close to optimal. Ive seems like a very good damage type for the level 45 monsters

trim sun
#

Not with higher base damage

tawny hinge
trim sun
#

I wish it had more cut damage on it but then I think it would be op

tawny hinge
#

I think the jury is still out on base damage vs having 5 usable perks in total

#

But id never tell someone rivalry isnt good enough to use

trim sun
#

I do use merciless attack a lot

tawny hinge
#

I don't. Maybe I should try em. On the other hand they do what? 500% damage?

#

Does the extra 30% or whatever the perk is actually matter?

trim sun
#

650 I think I have

#

650%

#

Think being the key word here

tawny hinge
#

650% damage.
Great sword attacking twice from the front and stopping is 350%?

solid mango
#

is this for bow only?

tawny hinge
#

Maybe its better than I thought. Ill have to check the animation

solid mango
#

cuse I cant aim with other weaponj?

tawny hinge
trim sun
#

Focus should aggro to the closest enemy you are facing

#

I think

#

I know people that use daggers like it

solid mango
tawny hinge
#

Im trying to figure a scenario where I jabe a wand out and id rather block to charge that up instead of just constantly attacking

trim sun
tawny hinge
#

You can try it and report back 🤷‍♂️

#

That sneak attack number 😅

trim sun
#

620

tawny hinge
#

55% backstabbing is nice

#

Im so uninclined to prioritize merciless in the current "end game". Theres literally one monster id want it for

#

And they have 10k hp so I have to wonder if it would even one shot them

trim sun
#

I didnt try to just was going for all damage I could

tawny hinge
#

Well, it might have to one shot them. I need to see how the damage os calculated. But it might do like 30k if youre kitted out

trim sun
#

Idk i can't see 30k damage happening

tawny hinge
#

Rice, coffee, 15% fell damage food. Fell damage rings.

Gs gloves and perk

trim sun
#

Think I get 5.5k mostly at best

tawny hinge
#

Let me see what my damage calc says 😅

#

One sec

trim sun
#

Yeah thats with no foods or buffs just hazelnuts

#

Lol

tawny hinge
#

I mean, youre right

trim sun
#

I need to food up and see what it does

tawny hinge
#

my calc says thats about right

#

so i'll try it in game and verify at some point

#

merciless can't crit right?

trim sun
#

I think it does because I see from 3.5k to 5 .5k

#

No food buffs

tawny hinge
#

oh!!! well if it can crit, i bet you can break 10k

trim sun
#

Down/up shows 1800 to 3k

#

Then if I run at night

#

Things a beast

tawny hinge
#

so 46% melee damage is insane too

trim sun
#

Then the other because I run with 2 of the same sword

#

And for my oh shit I need some life

#

At lvl 45 its dropping 2200 hp heals

tawny hinge
#

Yeah, soul reaping makes you invincible

trim sun
#

Love it

#

Its a must have

tawny hinge
#

Not to mention killing the vial triggers bloodlust perk

trim sun
#

Blood warrior?

#

Or the bloodlust gem?

tawny hinge
#

Oh, uhh. The perk that gives you 20% bonus damage for a bit when you kill something. I guess i thought it was called bloodlust. Ive been wrong a lot

trim sun
#

Blood Rage

#

My fault

misty sedge
tawny hinge
#

Im almost done leveling and farming so I have food and gear to test how long it takes to kill some of the bosses for each melee style

#

Get some data to support my claims

trim sun
#

Shield with high parry

#

I ran sword and board til this last update

#

Served me well

#

Bronze sword

#

I think

#

Solo all the halls

misty sedge
#

Same. I saw greatsword complaints before I found one in game, thought "it can't be that bad," found one, used it, and basically haven't looked back

trim sun
#

Same

#

It just plays and the timing is different

#

More to it then hack and slash

#

But everyone likes different play styles

#

So you will get mixed opinions

tawny hinge
#

I mean, sure. But people could use better words

#

They say greatsword is bad instead of "I dont like how it plays"

trim sun
#

To them that is bad

tawny hinge
#

When its probable that its at least effective at bosses as axe and possibly flat out better

#

You cant act objective and say its bad. You can not like it but its not bad

#

Thats like me saying bows are bad

trim sun
#

Agreed totally

tawny hinge
#

Just cause theyre dumb to me 😄

#

Anyway. Im hype to get my kill times down iver this weekend

trim sun
#

My bow is a slayer hitting at a 120 damage per shot

tawny hinge
#

And find out how far apart some reasonably optimized builds do against each other against the level 45 bosses

trim sun
#

I use it to pull adds thats it

supple eagle
#

Greatsword needs to be less freaking slow. Blumineck proves the typical depiction to be completely incorrect.

#

If you get a juggle going, it's fine. But for mass combat you just get eaten on the wind up.

#

Really, really good for stuff like the wyvern or matron, though.

coral juniper
coral juniper
primal rapids
#

Strafe+lmb an aoe slash

coral juniper
primal rapids
#

Bow is perfect the way it is.

Daggers suck.

Should be jab -> jab -> pause strike = heavy hitter

Jab -> jab -> lmb attack = AOE Spin slash

#

Like a gw2 thief dagger combo

coral juniper
#

GW2 my beloved

primal rapids
#

Each weapon can still be different but greatsword is lackluster and 2hers in general feel weak and clunky. Like.. its such an anti trope thing to not have a power slash move with a massive freaking sword.

coral juniper
#

Daggers could be interesting if they just slapped a straight 1.5x backstab mutli on them in addition to the tree

#

It would make it a sick multiplayer weapon

primal rapids
#

And a way to stun.. does kick stun? Haven't used it yet.

#

If you could stun for like 2 or 3 seconds then it would make backstabbing really lucrative

wild cypress
#

Daggers are freaking awesome, IDK what y'all are on about.

primal rapids
#

Passive 1.5x backstabbing multiplier plus a spiral spin attack and a 1.5 to 3 second stun would be so amazing

coral juniper
coral juniper
primal rapids
#

Daggers are lackluster af compared to every other weapon type and grt easily overwhelmed with multiple monsters

#

They have no AoE and I'm vehemently against the idea of daggers requiring bow to be viable

#

Like why go dagger when you can just keep using bow

coral juniper
#

I did see a pretty legit dagger build on the reddit at oen point

#

but it was a hybrid build with archery

primal rapids
#

Theres no reason to even switch weapons to daggers if you have a bow

#

Bow out performs daggers by such a margin that switching weapons isnt even necessary or worth it.

wild cypress
#

You have very strong feelings and I feel differently, alas, such is life. I've loved daggers and I'm about to hit 45. I don't feel diminished using other weapons, I feel well-kitted like an actual adventurer.

primal rapids
#

It would purely be a stylistic playstyle choice

#

Im just disappointed, as someone who exclusively plays assassin/archer/spear characters for the last 26 years of my gaming life,that the daggers in this game aren't built around an actual assassin style of play but are a sub weapon for bows.

#

Especially when literally no other sub weapon exists.

#

Theres no magic or strength equivalent of daggers.

#

They should've just rebranded the assassin tree to be a dagger combat/stealth tree.

#

And redone beastmaster to be a pet class with permanent tames.

coral juniper
#

I mean it is pretty apparent that the devs lumped daggers and ranged together when things like dex and food affect both stats. They are sorta designed to go together which I'm undecided if that's necessary or not

primal rapids
#

I hate it. I mean im okay with daggers being dex based but I hate that there are skills that require bow to maximize dagger output

#

And dagger fundamentally lacks the dmg to compete with like, 1h sword

coral juniper
#

I think dagger is actually higher dps than 1h sword when built properly

primal rapids
#

Maybe on single target, but that narrows dagger viability down to literally solo boss encounters.

#

90% of enshrouded is larger or medium scale fights. Without AOE in any way you are severely disadvantaged

coral juniper
wild cypress
#

It takes me maybe 2-3 seconds to down a level 45 mob; I just peel one away from the group a few yards, burn 'em down, rinse and repeat.

#

I will say jump smash is quite useful if you find yourself in an "oh shit!" moment, but I wouldn't call it critical.

primal rapids
#

Yeah but bow can do it even faster. Thats my point. Its not that the idea of daggers is bad.. its that they are behind every other weapon playstyle in the game.

#

They are lackluster by comparison.

wild cypress
#

👍

coral juniper
#

That being said, dagger does get the huge benefit of being in the stamina based class as you can SPAM the slam

primal rapids
#

I never bother using daggers because I can pincushion people with stupid amounts of bow dmg that probably needs a nerf

wild cypress
half furnace
#

does any1 have a fools demise greatsword with a gemslot?

primal rapids
#

I mean, it would be cool to see an assassin trait that causes blink to teleport you behind your target if youre looking at someone

coral juniper
#

Also a welcome change for daggers (and other weapons honestly) would be if statuses like poison can stack. Like if you swing 5 times you should be able to stack 5 poisons

primal rapids
#

Daggers passively causing a stacking bleed would be cool

#

Like inherent with the weapon

#

Like, 10% of weapon dmg per .5 seconds for 10 seconds, stacking duration up to a max of 30 seconds and bleed up to a maximum of like, 30% weapon dmg.

#

Would be really fun for hit and run tactics

#

Beastmaster should allow 3 branches similar to the wizard tree for stamina, strength or intelligence/spirit based pets.

Allow those pets to scale their hp/dmg off of how much stamina/etc you have.

#

Would give really cool playstyles

#

Like a healer could have a wolf stamina pet. Or a bear to tank for him

supple eagle
half furnace
#

cant wait for the HH, so i did it myself xD

image.png
tawny hinge
wild cypress
#

Anything is a strength-based ranged weapon if you're angry enough.

tawny hinge
#

I can't speak to daggers viability. I know a lot of people say its very very bad. I worry they dont understand fully just how crazy bows are though.

Numbers wise, daggers are just better than 1h weapons.

I'm a pair of gloves... I think thats it, away from being able to test an end game dagger build against bosses and start some comparisons. I highly doubt they come close to out damaging bows or magic (those tbh seem really overtuned compared to any melee option) but it wont surprise me if daggers are the 2nd best (melee) weapon at taking down bosses quickly

reef gyro
#

I flippin love using daggers

#

stab stabby stab

supple eagle
wild cypress
supple eagle
#

Well, spear for melee, javelins for range.

wild cypress
#

BABY WANTS HER HORSE CHOPPER

supple eagle
#

But we don't even have horses... or whatever big-eared anime fae analog they come up with 😉

wild cypress
#

Boi she'll chop anything that needs choppin', you can count on Keli.

primal rapids
#

Str based javelin sounds cool.

Spear/yari styled Dex combat is my wet dream.

#

Give me Nobushi from for honor

misty sedge
#

How??

half furnace
misty sedge
# half furnace cheat engine

Rad, I'm gonna see if I can use it to give myself a level 50 Silvernight Greatsword. I haven't used it before, wish me luck

half furnace
coral juniper
supple eagle
#

Ugh.

misty sedge
pure bobcat
pure bobcat
cunning mural
supple eagle
#

Would need to be more "armadillo like" than simply "big armadillo" - but sure.

cunning mural
#

"bred a domestic fae deer" we can... already tame them though

supple eagle
#

But yeah, we do have a mix of some normal Earf stuff (rats, cats, dogs, goats, bats..) and not-Earf stuff 😄

cunning mural
#

my main thing is, I like horses cause I like horses, lol

#

give me my Epona!

pure bobcat
cunning mural
#

I actually think the current fae deer is big enough to hold us, let me check

#

I just want a "mount slot", that I can equip various things to. like a Yak, Fae Deer, Horses, little garden snake, maybe even a goat

pure bobcat
#

I could definitely see fae deer/elk-things in the forest regions, earthlike horses in the Nomad Highlands, and giant dune armadillos in the Kindlewastes. The mount for Blackmire and Veilwater could perhaps be the giant lizards.

#

(Albaneve is just out of luck I guess, because trying to ride those goats feels like it would be jumping the shark just a bit...)

cunning mural
#

they're... a little small, but still believable enough to me.

#

I also love the idea of a shroud horse... a horse with blue skin, and a glowing blue mane, with shroud fog at its feet, that the fell soldiers can ride

cunning mural
left wraith
#

Also, whos to say horses even exist in Embervale

cunning mural
left wraith
#

Can't really tame a hivemind

cunning mural
#

true, but my point was more so... I want to fight on horse back

#

let me fight a fell soldier, joust time!

cunning mural
left wraith
#

I wouldn't hold your breath on ever having mounts or tamed fell creatures.

#

Keen doesn't seem interested in adding mounts for numerous reasons and the Fell are a hivemind wouldn't make a much sense to tame one creature.

pure bobcat
# cunning mural ...wouldn't a Polearm/Halberd just be a 2H weapon? like, would they *need* to ma...

It should be significantly longer than the other 2H weapons, so it would probably benefit from distinct animations. Also, it might either be unusable or absurd in tight spaces, depending on how little or much clipping the devs would allow. To little makes it impossible to swing wide and would require situational animations (and also, how would you make a 90-degree turn while next to a wall?), while two much would let it outright attack through walls. I'm not sure there's a single fixed value that solves that problem.

(Hollow Echo gets around this by being a magical effect, and I haven't tested whether it can attack through walls, but that's less of an issue because magic.)

cunning mural
#

sadly true....

wild cypress
cunning mural
#

unlike many suggestions, this one isn't marked as "Planned" even though it's one of the most requested

cunning mural
#

same for Twilight Princess and Twilight Princess HD, they actively removed the "Weapon bounce" mechanic

pure bobcat
#

I mean it could be a useful balancing feature if desired, similarly to how in reality spears were superior to swords (all else being equal) in the open but not necessarily in tight spaces. But it would go against the apparent desire a lot of players (and maybe the devs?) have to be able to specialize in one weapon type of your choice.

cunning mural
#

hard to say, and its really funny how spears are so darn effective in battle. cheap to make, long range, sharp, ect.
Swords are certainly cooler looking in my opinion but if I was given the choice between a spear and sword irl... I would pick sword still cause I'm stupid but know that the spear was probably the better option.

left wraith
cunning mural
#

the mount request is simple: people like cats, people like dogs, and people like horses fell_love
and horses and mounts are mostly a problem when it comes to figuring out how to make them work, do you summon them by placing them THEN get on? can you walk beside them or are they only like terraria mounts? hit button and instantly riding one.
but Balance was always the weirdest argument... some people say "mounts will break the game" and if we have flying mounts that's true, but there is no difference between riding a horse and walking. Starting the game brand new, I can get all the way to the Albanese summits tower in under 30 minutes. A horse will not make the game worse, it will just make ground travel slightly faster... and it could STILL be slower than the end-game gliderwith double jump, updraft, and mana rings :P

wild cypress
#

I like the game being less like other games and I also never played WoW for more than a week partly because of the absurd mounts making it too Disney fantasy for me to get into hehe.

cunning mural
#

mostly my desire from mounts is: I want to be able to travel faster on the ground, even if its slower than gliders. and I want to be able to place my horses in my base in stables or something. I don't need flying or gliding mounts, no ridable dragon or vulture... although dang riding a vulture would look cool, even if the "ridable vulture" was literally just... "Tame vulture, equip it as glider, now I have a really silly vulture glider skin"

#

but horses are very much not something that breaks the game "just cause I can travel across the ground a bit faster"

#

they could even be disabled in shroud, as a "you can't summon pets in the shroud" or once you enter the shroud it dis-mounts you until you leave saying "Your mount is vulnerable to the shroud and refused to go in with you"

wild cypress
#

If you can't even keep feature bloat out of your own post, imagine how game development would grind to a halt on what we love about this game as feature creep/bloat bogged down the devs making it more like other games. Reject mounts, return to sandals. XD

cunning mural
#

is "I want to ride a horse across the land to go slightly faster" a better request then?

wild cypress
cunning mural
#

I know, I am just after a silly mechanic, not a game breaker :P half my requests are things I'd be fine getting after 1.0 release

fleet field
#

Hmm... what about mounts that are only slightly faster than fully buffed running, don't use stamina, but you have to dismount to fight, they can't double jump, and you can't take them into the shroud.

#

And maybe you can have another player sit behind you if it's one of those lizards or something

cunning mural
#

honestly I really don't even care if mounts aren't that fast, but I want them to have "auto run"
and I do mean "straight line go forward" not even "follow pathing blocks"
then let us hold shift to make the horse sprint, and give them a longer jump... maybe their single jump, go the same distance as a "sprint double jump" the player can do already

fleet field
#

There could be a quest path where you can upgrade your mount with some small storage bags or other features

cunning mural
#

it really is just "why do you want a horse? walking works" "cause they look cool, why do you want a spear? swords work" situation... its just a prefered neat thing, not necessary but like...

fleet field
#

Yeah the most important thing is that they look awesome AF

cunning mural
#

yep, I don't need fancy mechanics or anything, but auto run would be appreciative, and I expect my horse/fae deer to be able to jump, and I expect a horse's speed to be at LEAST normal character sprint speed. but thats still waaay slower than a glider

fleet field
#

The 5th hollow halls quest could award a skeletal horse, a late game farmer quest could award a water buffalo - there could be a few themed options

cunning mural
#

a hollow hall skeleton/hollow horse sounds like such a great reward to find in a hollow hall dungeon

primal rapids
#

I still want a necromancer playstyle

wild cypress
# primal rapids I still want a necromancer playstyle

Age of Conan (despite having a toxic player base and being managed by thieving bigots) really had necromancer, battle priest and necromancer perfected IMO. I still miss the variance in style and the raw power you could pull off with either the direct damage or the pet class variants of necros there, felt genuinely evil when playing one lol.

solar rock
#

So, I've been trying to figure out if I've been doing things right. I've been trying the barbarian approach. Which has been either a mace or two-handed sword. Which my approach has been attack aggressively to keep stunning them, then roll back when I think they're about to strike. I've... got a bad record of either running out of stamina either rolling or blocking, then dive back in when they're done. Emphasis has been roll over block.

Is there either a better way to do barb, or is there another style that suits the sort of approach I'm doing better?

fleet field
#

I'm working on my 2h character - Decent stamina regeneration has been good. Blink skill has helped a lot vs. rolling

rare dagger
#

I use the 2 hand sword to stun lock enemies. I don't do the full combo, just the first two attacks cause the third one is too slow to proc. Either roll or just pause after the second attack. For faster / swarming enemies I use the mace and just keep clicking

pure bobcat
#

I mean, even with a saddle, those hollow skeletons can't possibly be comfortable and they even have those sharp crystals growing out of them.

cunning mural
#

also a black saddle themed after the hollow hall furniture sounds awesome.

rare dagger
# solar rock So, I've been trying to figure out if I've been doing things right. I've been tr...

Stamina rings, points in whatever it's called, endurance? Drink water. Stay dry. Upgrade your weapon so it does more damage, thus you're swinging less. If you're early game, don't take on patrols or large mobs. If you took the jump attack skill, jumping is gonna use stamina. Try not to sprint too much in combat, you can often avoid attacks by walking backwards or to the sides. It's easier to walk evade when not locked on imo

cunning mural
#

drawing a bow also prevents stamina regen, but holding block was the hardest habit to break.

misty sedge
#

At this point I don't care if they actually add mounts or not, but add some kind of wild horse or SOMETHING that gives me reason to believe we weren't using yaks or fae deer to haul these wagons around Embervale

#

They objectively make sense to be in the game. Do they make sense to be rideable as a gameplay mechanic? Possibly not.

wild cypress
cunning mural
#

"If a fae deer can pull a wagon, a fae deer can pull a me!"

#

see? it agrees

#

and looks so happy to do so

misty sedge
#

Are there horses or mounts mentioned in any of the lore pages? (I don't actually know)

#

But if there are, then it makes sense for us. Outright. Imo.

cunning mural
#

uh... you'd assume the Caravan would mention one... let me check some of the "Nobles and History" section

misty sedge
#

Alternatively, maybe it was just Anton hauling wagons around Embervale before

cunning mural
#

I can confirm "Canary's" exist, 5th page of "Scattered Legacy"

pure bobcat
cunning mural
#

I am just reading lore :P now we can confirm another irl animal exists in enshrouded

pure bobcat
#

Okay, that makes much more sense then.

#

For a bit I was confused and was thinking "Is there some weird breed of horse named after the canary? Why would anyone do that?"

left wraith
#

You do know this channel is for combat discussion, right

cunning mural
#

yeah sorry, it was about horse and mount combat for a bit though and I kept getting pinged in replies. at least my most recent one does show horse combat? fell_love but uh, yeah. sorry

#

I hope they add a "lore discussion" channel. I feel like spoilers is more "gameplay spoilers" than "story spoilers" ||but at least now I can confirm horses existed in embervale cause of the tapestries, and were used in combat||

wild cypress
#

Would be cool if training dummies showed poison damage ticks, but they seem to ignore poison.

#

Something I got on (I'm presuming my boosted Gem of Toxicity) is ticking mobs for 74 dmg multiple times and I wanted something less chaotic than combat to verify that with.

misty sedge
steep dome
sullen crater
left wraith
sullen crater
pure bobcat
#

Lore can relate to combat-and-skills, in the sense that those provide mechanical storytelling, so yeah it is a bit of a puzzle where to fit it sometimes. Also, I'm not a discord wizard so if there's some clever way to reply to a person's message in channel A but put the reply in channel B idk how to do it. I'll try to remember to shift lore discussions toward spoilers-ahead.

left wraith
runic tree
#

I have now seen around five posts on reddit since the water update from new players asking if they're doing something wrong with early mage gameplay. Can't say I'm surprised since the biggest issues with early mage still haven't really been addressed:

  • Early mana regen without a Mana Leech staff still sucks.
  • Early game melee is just straight up better than early game wands.
  • Also the wand combat style in general is an acquired taste (even at higher levels I still prefer melee combat on my mage).
  • Pre-level 20 mage lacks the skill points and gear to mitigate the first two issues. The latter issue could be solved by adding more mage weapon options with more built-in mobility and/or AoE.
half furnace
#

we need a 2h Greatwand, with overhead attack

wise rapids
#

<@&1059853133188169910>

#

Gettem

steep parcel
#

Got 'em!

tawny hinge
#

Early game melee is not straight up better

#

What a hot take

#

You can craft an ice wand with no npc

#

And literally backpedal and kill anything in springlands. Its so busted

#

Not to mention they just get free bonus damage on most hits with overcharge

#

Not to just rant and rave but also consider while mana isnt free early game, strength builds do not have an option to do ranged damage early with strength. So even if mana is too limited, which wasn't my experience playing mage, as an int character you get both wants and staves scaling with int.

#

I agree wand combat isn't much fun

#

But its not bad...

#

You can beat matron at lvl 3 with the white crafted wand before you get thr alchemist

#

You just cant do that with the scrappy sword

runic tree
#

Mobility and multiple enemies are always the complaints I see (and have) for wands. Especially early on. Sure you can back away from one or two enemies and slowly pelt them to death, but it's not exactly engaging combat, and the moment more enemies join (or one of the cleaver Scavengers shows up) in is when the wand really starts to struggle without a lot of skills behind it.

#

A matron that summons wolves instead of the one that spits poison would be a lot harder for a wand vs melee without cheesing terrain.

#

But that's also why I said wand combat is an acquired taste too. Not everyone is going to like it (I sure don't). Which is why I wish mages would get more weapon options with different combat styles.

coral juniper
#

Yeah or something like hollow halls

runic tree
#

Yeah, a melee weapon will definitely have an easier time in the first couple hollow halls than a wand.

coral juniper
#

I mean at the end of the day when discussing combat stuff like this I think it's important too to look at the numbers and I from everything I've seen and experienced , 2h melee out damages magic at every level of play, numerically.

#

Like play style, feel of a class, and ease of use are ultimately subjective.

tawny hinge
#

Greatsword might actually out dps wands and staves at many points in the game. It's posisble that 2h does but i'm not exactly sure how a 2h is going to keep up with the built in 20% bonus damage staves get

coral juniper
tawny hinge
#

unless at the same level, a hammer actually just has more "attack power" on the item than the spell + the staff.

coral juniper
#

Also I think melee gets more straight up damage nodes on the tree but I haven't checked to confirm

runic tree
#

I've heard quite a few times too that 2H melee beats most builds barring explosive bow in raw damage.

tawny hinge
#

the only inconsistancy I have with staff right now that I cant figure out is fireball does 1-3 damage less than I think it should. I dont know if its a rounding error or a problem with my calcuation

#

but I have strength weapons solved. daggers slot right in and work on the same calculation. So i'm pretty sure I've backwards engineered the damage calculation

coral juniper
#

I know you have, at least when it comes to single attacks. I'm assuming your tests to bit include things like a timed matron kill with the same tier of gear and or skill points

tawny hinge
#

agreed.

#

matron isn't quite on my list, but the level 45 bosses are

coral juniper
#

Matron was just an example I suppose, but you do have boss kill times?

tawny hinge
#

not yet. But my file is more or less ready to start tests on daggers/red weapons. I need to test high level spells more so I can A: make sure my calculations are right, then I can B: play with the skill tree to optimize damage

Sorry if I came across as antagonistic. 😅 I know I get worked up sometimes when people insist that magic or ranged is "bad".

#

and sitting and thinking about it, the end game tests wont aleviate teh ealry game complaints

#

cause I dont think many people think max level mage is bad

runic tree
#

As a mage main myself I know it isn't "bad" per se myself especially later on, but I do know the early game mage experience is awful, and every time I see a new player post about their poor experiences with early mage it's always the same things.

tawny hinge
#

I do think theres a misunderstanding that melee is somehow much much more survivable early game than it is

coral juniper
#

Nah you're fair, I think it's fair. I think the only build rn that's "bad" would be solo daggers. Like it's clear it's designed to be paired with range but not everyone wants to play ranged

tawny hinge
#

you cant really use the melee abilities cause you dont have stamina. and when you're out of stamina and absolutely hosed in the fight the first thing that comes to mind is "mages dont have to deal with this, their stuff doesn't take stamina and they can farm up mana potions....... there is no stamina potion"

coral juniper
#

I'm always just interested in optimization in games so I look at stuff numerically sorta for the fun.

coral juniper
tawny hinge
coral juniper
#

Also just having block and parry naturally is huge edit: especially in the early game

tawny hinge
#

well...

#

vukah brawlers and scav "cleavermen" just stun you guaranteed if you block their 3 swing attacak

#

parry is strong but its not unique to shield

#

shield just has the best parry.

#

nothing can block in this game it seems

#

its always better to eat the hit against anything dangerous than to block it

coral juniper
#

Yeah I'm saying 2h gets a parry "mage" doesn't. At least not with staff

runic tree
#

Honestly, I never really had stamina issues at early levels when using a sword for close combat on my mage despite having naturally lower max stamina than either melee or ranger.

#

Wards actually have really strong parry.

tawny hinge
#

the grass is always greener so when I was playing mage i was dumbfounded I could just backpedal infinitely with a slowing ice attack, it never used stamina and if a wolf came up (the only thing that can actually hit me cause it lunges) I always had stamina to roll

#

and when you're playing melee, you constantly have to use stamina, its frustrating at every level to chase down the dumb ass fell bowman

#

you actually have to sprint them down

runic tree
#

I've seen a lot of people talking about how strong the Drak are, but unless I time the parry wrong I've actually been finding them super easy to stagger their attacks with my Ward.

coral juniper
#

I mean for the longest time I could only kill berserkers with wands bc I used to not know the parry window

#

But it would take me 10 minutes every time lol

tawny hinge
#

I use wards when I play 1h melee now. the shields are almost useless and at least with a ward I get mana regen for my glider and some ele reists

spring topaz
runic tree
#

Gandalf style sword and staff would be the best thing ever.

#

Almost no game does it despite it being one of the oldest modern wizarding weapon presentations there is.

spring topaz
#

And I find that, unfortunately, the best way to kill the bowmen is to target lock them and use the roll attack. It's a really good gap closer, but it operates poorly outside of target lock

tawny hinge
#

The other thing I was really surprised about playing mage was how useful just looting around was. I got a lot of spells for free. And I hadn't considered how insane it is that you just have access to multiple elements constantly. and its not 3 swords each having 1/2 of a different element.

its you do 95% one element on any cast. so when you hit weakness yoou get 20% bonus for using a staff, then (after you crit or dont) 20% weakness.

But THEN when you get a new staff.... you still have access to all your elements. You dont need to get insanely lucky on a weapon drop in order to retain fire damage.

tawny hinge
#

dont even start on using the grappling hook stuff to fight flying enemies

runic tree
#

Honestly I always stuck with element neutral, or lightning melee weapons leveling up. Don't have to juggle resistances at all that way.

tawny hinge
#

and you have that option

#

thats what i'm saying

#

if you want to play weakness you can, if you want to go hard to resist you can

coral juniper
#

That is true, having access to the most applicable element is really handy, though I do wonder at times if the damage buff just isn't worth the opportunity cost of switching spells. Like some spells are just better

tawny hinge
#

you only need a single staff to drop at level

runic tree
#

Yeah, the grapple at least gave something to melee, but I would definitely like seeing them get throwing spears or something that scaled on strength.

tawny hinge
#

you can't even guarantee when you get to the highlands or whatever taht you'll have one single one handed sword

spring topaz
tawny hinge
#

let alone the element the enemies are neutral to

runic tree
#

Staffs had their own issues at early levels. I ignored any without Mana Leech because staff casting at early levels feels awful without it.

coral juniper
spring topaz
#

It's stupid to need ammo AND mana. One or the other

runic tree
#

Having the same issue myself. Almost all axes and maces, and the few staffs I do get have terrible traits.

spring topaz
#

Scrolls should cost no mana

#

"scrolls"

tawny hinge
# spring topaz Well technically you wouldn't be blocking much when you're dashing across the ma...

sure, in reality you ahve 2 options. DIVE the archer so you dont take a bunch of chip damage, or fight the front line saving stamina and take hp damage. It often feels like if you're trying to play "red tree only melee" you just get taxed over and over. Hp or stam. hp or stam. no amount of "skill" stops it. so the best build ends up being wahtever has the most healing since I can't avoid taking damage

tawny hinge
coral juniper
#

Speaking of elements isn't the "meta" rn to just make everything wet with gem of currents and use shock

spring topaz
runic tree
#

The Sprit trait helps, but Mana Leech at early levels is a night and day difference.

coral juniper
tawny hinge
#

yes yes yes. agreed. Right now, this games combat is pretty shallow imo. It just is what it is. So like, as people with 300+ hours in the game and are passionate about combat, its kind of encumbant on us to fix misconceptions. Or people will continue to think the combat is bad or that their class is uniquely shitty early game when in reality they just dont have the perspective to see that no one is strong early. melee may be able to deal with 2 wolves and a scav easier but both ranged characters do NOT need to stock up on 20+ bandages and 20 HP pots in order to take some of these bosses

runic tree
#

Poison and fire overpower it too, but it at least blunts the damage from those.

tawny hinge
runic tree
#

Combat definitely needs a bit of work, and the skill tree for sure needs an overhaul, but I definitely see more complaints about early mage vs early melee/archer from newer players so it's definitely lagging behind the two in the first 20-ish levels.

coral juniper
#

If enshrouded adds serious end game combat. Like some sort of dungeon system to scale infinitely, it would easily be the peak crafting survival game.

#

But honestly just natural progression through wake of water will surely give me over 100hrs of gameplay which exceeds many of the other games in this genre already

tawny hinge
#

yeah, they should steal terrarias "use the bosses head to craft a summon item", then people could practice against hte bosses in a standard arena. It'd probably take something like that before people actually see where the balance is at. if you listen to youtubers, they just have no idea what they're talking about. they have 20hr takes on whats good and what skills or weapons do waht

runic tree
#

Wands getting more active combat abilities and alternative weapon types like melee weapons have would definitely help the perception of them, and early staff casting is almost always a complaint I see without using Mana Leech to bypass the slow regen.

coral juniper
#

Lmao, there's a few YouTubers that stand out as better

tawny hinge
#

I like this game. A ton of things are very very good. And even though i could play games like dragons dogma or elden ring 100 times using only sword and board, enshroudeds combat is not very engaging. Hopefully they can make some adjustments. But if not, its still a very good game for building and exploring with a simple arcadey combat system.

spring topaz
tawny hinge
#

or let me summun up a scav horde by putting the matrons head on a pike 😂

encourage fights and you'll get the feedback on whats good or bad. Fights aren't encouraged right now. Skipping all enemies and opening chests is.

runic tree
#

Polishing the combat would for sure make this game a top tier game. The building system is amazing, the world is well designed and the voxel system is so polished it's so easy to forget the world is made of cubes. Plus the quests, lore and exploration gives players plenty of things to do while progressing.

spring topaz
#

Outside of comfort, they could do something else with the heads too. Like a small bonus toward each mob who's trophy you have hung up.

coral juniper
spring topaz
#

I gotta admit though...being able to choose 'headfirst dive' when over water is a pretty amazing mechanic. Most games you just flop on into the water stiff as a board.

coral juniper
tawny hinge
spring topaz
#

Could make it a food effectiveness multiplier after 1h

#

or duration

runic tree
#

Shoot, the Rested buff is mandatory on mages too imo. Not having it after dying suuuucks.

tawny hinge
spring topaz
#

Combat seems like one of those things they said 'meh, good enough' on, whereas the rest of the game is more 'no, get it right'. That's the most frustrating thing about it IMO.

tawny hinge
#

rested is such a mandatory part of end game combat that it does not feel like a "fun optional thing your base does for you"

it becomes a time tax. if you die, you have to go home, sit down for rested, then teleport and go get your body.

runic tree
#

Mage definitely has skill nodes that range from underwhelming to questionable to outright useless.

coral juniper
tawny hinge
#

jump slam and rolling attack provide zero extra damage to greatsword 😂

#

while we're talking about skills, did you guys see how the perk "skill shot" is bugged up in the green tree?

coral juniper
#

Maybe it changes but jump slam seems ass. Idk what situation I'd ever use it vs just swinging with my axe and cleaving the entire pack anyways. I could see it being good on daggers since you get so much stamina and limited aoe

coral juniper
spring topaz
tawny hinge
tawny hinge
coral juniper
tawny hinge
fleet field
spring topaz
#

The fish ones are particularly egregious because you can't make 'batches' of them....you gotta....well...fish 🤣

#

I wish the fisher NPC could be set to 'fish' for me....doesn't he like that kinda stuff?

tawny hinge
#

fishing is just....

spring topaz
#

I have a pond out back....go nuts....

tawny hinge
#

you should be able to catch 1 common fish every so often with a baited trap and it stacks up like farm animals

runic tree
#

Would definitely love to see different attack styles added to weapons though:

  • Axes : High cleave, lower damage

  • Swords : Moderate cleave, moderate damage

  • Maces : Low to no cleave, high single target damage

  • Also, give melee strength-based throwing spears

  • Longbows and Shortbows could probably use some more separation. I know the latter fires faster for less power, but I don't really notice a big difference between the two.

  • Daggers need buffs and Stealth defninitely needs big buffs. Also, maybe more differentiation between the raw damage daggers and the poison specialized daggers.

  • Make staffs the slow charge high power ranged mage weapon and add rods/sceptres that are faster charge but lower power ranged mage weapons.

  • Alternatives to wands. Orbs that do less damage but have stronger built in multi-target attacks, Tomes that have an area blast attack centered on the wielder, etc.

coral juniper
tawny hinge
#

demaning your players spend an hour fishing so they can feel like they have enough food for a boss is jsut insane

#

If I had to just guess, I'd bet those are working

#

But I will test

#

all other gear that gives a specific bonus to a type of attack works

spring topaz
#

Well I like the fishing minigame, but it's such a hinderance to food production by comparison to other options in the game.

runic tree
tawny hinge
#

the skill shot "skill" is not programmed to have anythign to do with actually hitting head shots. its basically just a 50% bodyshot damage buff

#

but i'll report back

half furnace
fleet field
spring topaz
#

I want to re-draw the skill tree with all the stuff that's currently in there. Where some things are placed currently breaks my brain 🤣

runic tree
#

Fishing has definitely been the food bottleneck for me and my friend. Especially since recipes don't seem to have multiple fish options like some recipes now have.

tawny hinge
#

Honestly, all of the "10 then 20% more% damage type perks could all be in one neutral damage tree

runic tree
#

Yeah, there are so many things I would change, move or remove in the skill tree if I could.

tawny hinge
#

You have to get them. No matter your build if you want good damage

spring topaz
#

Not only that, but some things should be moved to the 'center' and the 'center skills'.....some of them connect to the outer ring and some don't, but it's not necessary to take them...

#

just odd as all hell

tawny hinge
#

So everyone is in red and blue.

Then, especially if you are int or dex you want the 4 foods perk

runic tree
#

Expand the center "general skills" circle and move the +% damage and resistance skills there. Along with things like Updraft and Double Jump which almost everyone uses because they're just that useful.

spring topaz
#

Yeah Dessert Stomach seems like it was orignially intended for 'sweets' for a high-stamina build, but it turned into '4 foods' 🤣

runic tree
#

I'm glad it turned into 4 foods. The extra food makes a massive difference especially after the reitemization.

tawny hinge
#

and both int/dex get access to 4 foods with damage buffs

#

so like.... you gotta get it if killing bosses in order to get your drops is a priority

spring topaz
#

Well yeah, it's a nice to-have on any build, but if it's going to be like that, it should probably be more of a 'base' skill

tawny hinge
#

we can all cross our fingers and hope it gets better. Unfortunately the devs say very little and the liason(s) between them and us gently reminds us that its being worked on. 🤷‍♂️

#

that its being worked on but now like how or what unfortunately

runic tree
#

And unfortunately the first few combat changes haven't really landed well which hasn't helped sentiment about the state of combat and skills either.

spring topaz
#

I'm sure it is, but my main concern is that they put out a 'Update X' patch with an absolute truckload of changes instead of incrementing things. They seem to have that kind of mentality.

#

Some things wind up being good, some are bad, some are 'meh', and they say "Combat reworked, done"

tawny hinge
#

if they aren't careful, yeah. the big patch mentality often excludes needed tweaks afterward

#

but obvioudly thats just projecting other devs track record on this one.

spring topaz
#

It's great for putting down new lands, blocks, items, and even some full-on features like water and fishing....but for combat, it's a 'feel' you need to get right. It's more than just a skill tree and a few bug fixes.

#

Just because the sword does 'x' damage, the mob has 'y' hp and the animations all work, doesn't mean it feels good to play.

runic tree
#

Unfortunately the sheer number of things that need tweaking has been leading to an increase in the sentiment that we need a big combat patch. That was apparent after the follow up hotfixes after the water update, and I can't say I disagree.

spring topaz
#

I'm oversimplifying of course, but it's more along those lines for building. Things just need to work and look good.

tawny hinge
#

i wonder how long the list is of skills, mechanics, weapons, or armor that are actually useless. either not functing as a player would expect or completely outclassed by another option

#

i'd bet many of our complaints start there

spring topaz
#

One thing that devs (and some players) need to get through their head is, there's always going to be a BIS (Best-in-slot) item depending on your build. That will ALWAYS happen, end of discussion. You just need to understand how your game systems are built around it.

tawny hinge
#

sure, the lunging attack animations make combat really same and whatever. but the HUGE quantity of skill points and over low quality of places to spend them make the idea of a "build" almost obsolete. you have maybe 2 choices based on your class

runic tree
#

I wrote out my own personal issues with the skill tree a few weeks ago:
#combat-and-skills message

Mileage may vary depending on player experiences, but those are at least my issues with the skill tree currently.

spring topaz
tawny hinge
spring topaz
#

Unless you narrow your character's options...then it becomes the former, "Which is best overall". Just like New World

tawny hinge
tawny hinge
spring topaz
#

Yeah....I liked the aesthetic they were going with....should have lead with that gothic feel to begin with.

coral juniper
#

But I'm a gw2 player myself mostly

spring topaz
#

I REALLY wish MMO devs would take the hint from GW2's "living world" model. The world isn't 'alive' more because you gave all the mobs patrols.....

runic tree
#

An MMO with WoW's instance phasing, Guild Wars' world design and FFXIV's class system would be amazing.

tawny hinge
#

i played like 2500 hours in gw2. I can't believe its still going. I was so excited playing the betas and launch for that game

spring topaz
#

Every time I think of that game I remember Total Biscuit...RIP man

fast ivy
tawny hinge
#

Does osrs have good combat? 😆

fast ivy
#

Yea just takes a bit to get there, hardest thing ive ever done on a computer was in osrs

coral juniper
fast ivy
#

More rhythm based than turn based

coral juniper
#

But that also allows for incredibly high skilled interactions

coral juniper
fast ivy
#

Yea it gets really deep its just not super flashy if you dont know whats going on

#

I think the game has the best philosophy behind it tho, progress matters and doesnt get deleted or devalued

coral juniper
#

I guess it's like anything though. As a gw2 player he'll know the difference of someone that can perfectly time cooldowns and those that cant

fast ivy
#

Yea its just realllyyyy different, but it gets so complicated lol

tawny hinge
coral juniper
#

I think gw2 might even be more respectful of your time than RuneScape. Also having a pay to play model (membership) adds a whole layer

coral juniper
fast ivy
coral juniper
#

The beauty of gw2 is you can log in 2 years later and be just as powerful as you were last time. Obviously they make skill balance tweaks but your gear is just as good. Don't have to worry about constantly grinding the newest raid or whatever

runic tree
#

Yeah, that's one of the things I love about GW2 is that the level cap has only gone up once. Which means their expansion progression is horizontal rather than continuously vertical.

left crescent
#

Horizontal progression in MMOs is definitely the best way to allow players to return without feeling like the time they've already invested has been wasted. I really think it's the way forward for MMOs that want to be successful

#

Strong vertical progression/grind treadmills are just not fun for so many people that it drives them away, especially when the progression becomes systematic

coral juniper
#

Yeah I think there is a perfect balance. At times GW is almost too horizontal. Like I log in and I'm like what am I even grinding for. But yeah not being able to play if you take a break for a month sucks balls

fair aspen
#

late game with all Bis and food who has more damage archer or wizard?

tawny hinge
coral juniper
coral juniper
tawny hinge
#

Theres arguably 3 places damage increases happen in the formula.

Call them 1, 2, and 3

  • 1 will be the stat level (int/str etc function here)
  • 2 the generic level (+melee damage, + ranged, + against fell)
  • 3 the specific level (Dagger damage or weakness would be here)

when you do damage and crit, a critical strike only multiplies level 1. Level 2 is added on top after the crit BUT only adds the % increase of the normal non crit damage.

EG: if level 1 is 100 and you crit (50 more damage), level 2 adding 10% will add 10 damage, not 15.

level 3 damage adds a % of all levels below it combined. So 15% dagger damage increase mmeans that: a crit, the flat melee damage or fell specific damage, the increases from strength are all increased by the 15%. Making level 3 valuable as hell since it increases all the damage, even other % increases.

okay thats the quick and dirty on how to understand what i'm going to say next.