other-games

[peak marsh]

I definitely remember it being a "one of many" kind of game. At the time it released it was right around/just after GTA 3 and Vice City became the biggest games in the known universe, so suddenly we had Mafia, Godfather: The World is Yours, Scarface, and a bunch of other similar titles

[vague galleon]

there was that one igessthatscensored fighting one where the world gets more colofrul as you play but by the time I got to play it, just didnt hold my interest.

[tepid wadi]

I dunno why, but that reminds me of a concept that I had recently: A game where you're playing as kids, and playing pretend, but as you do the game becomes reality. Like, you pick up a stick, and use it as a sword, and the model changes to become a sword, etc.

Then as you play, more and more things become part of the fantasy until by the end, the entire world is the fantasy world and nothing resembles the "normal" world that you started the game in.

[tranquil cove]

and then, as you save the world and defeat the evil bad guy reality kicks in, and you see you murdered your parents with a stick. the end. 🤣

it would be pyschological horror if they added that twist

[tepid wadi]

I had considered that, yeah, if you wanted to go that route.

[tranquil cove]

and before you're like wow, valourant, that's going too far

[tepid wadi]

But I don't generally like to make things that dark, we have enough trauma to deal with as people 😝

[tranquil cove]

Tell Me Why had a story where ||the mother seemed like she was going to shoot one of her daughters, and the twin daughter stabbed her in the back and then the mother fell into a lake and died|| <- spoiler alert

i feel like spoilers are unfair for mods

because the mod needs to read it anyway

[peak marsh]

Kind of reminds me of Evoland, but instead of playing your way through game console generations, it's imagination instead

[tranquil cove]

even if the mod doesn't want to be spoiled on the story

they will have to be spoiled on the story to read what i wrote

[peak marsh]

https://store.steampowered.com/app/233470/Evoland/ -that one. Which in itself was a pretty inventive idea

Steam

Evoland

Interested by Evoland?

We're glad to introduce you Evoland: Legendary Edition!

Evoland: Legendary Edition is a pack which brings you two great and unique RPGs, with their graphic style and gameplay changing as you progress through the game!…

Price

$9.99

Recommendations

4488

Metacritic

61

▶ Play video

[tranquil cove]

yeah i remember this game

i never bought it though

[peak marsh]

https://store.steampowered.com/app/3672400/Farever/?curator_clanid=32964953 -Cool, the same developer has a new game in the works

Steam

Farever

You’re no foretold hero, just one among many! Explore a vast open world of vibrant landscapes, alone or with allies, where dungeons, enemy camps, and curiosities lie scattered across the realm. From forgotten temples to underwater caves, Siagarta is full of wonders waiting to be discovered. Look closely, and you’ll find treasures and equip…

Release Date

Coming soon

▶ Play video

That's a wishlist

Kind of gives me an Enshrouded meets Spyro vibe with the platforming

Doesn't appear to have a building system though

[timber prism]

i'll have to look into it! Thank you!

[vague galleon]

the evoland games arent that good.

[peak marsh]

Yeah, it's one I'd get on sale if anything. They mostly just had a really unique concept

[vague galleon]

i spent too much on them. 75% off is barely worth it.

man. EVERYONE is doing gliders and grappling hooks now huh?

[peak marsh]

Yeah, I've noticed it's been the big trend

[vague galleon]

i mean. IT WORKS, but ya.

[peak marsh]

I mean, it makes sense because in 3d games especially mobility options are fun, but it'd be nice if someone would come up with a different idea

[tranquil cove]

gliders was my idea

[vague galleon]

Doom Eternal seemed to kick off the grapping hook and BOTW the glider

[tranquil cove]

i told valheim devs to do it before enshrouded existed

and the devs there told me off

but then they eventually made the floating feather cape

[vague galleon]

you know what was ass?
the wingsuit in farcry.

[tranquil cove]

but still i wanted a glider.

i also told valheim devs to do toboggans.

i bet you if someone does that in a game, they will be a huge hit

and then people will say its not my idea

only place i seen toboggans is STEEP

also not even sure they have toboggans, they have skiis and surf board things

toboggans would have made sense for valheim, how many times me and friends rode a wagon down a mountain to a boat transport ore.

but i guess their engine is meh, can't do cool things

[tranquil cove]

grapple hook was in jedi knight dark forces 2 as a mod (so 1997)

and i dont own console so never heard or encountered BOTW

or the ideas in it

and the jedi knight grapple hook was better

no anchor points, you could grapple anywhere the grapple could reach

you could force jump, and then grapple the ceiling, and lob rockets from your rocket launcher at people below you, who usually didn't look up. played in multiplayer a lot

i wonder if Unreal Tournament had a grapple hook

https://unreal.fandom.com/wiki/Grappling_Hook

[peak marsh]

I was going to say, not in vanilla but that game has been modded pretty extensively

[tranquil cove]

unreal tournament is 1999, jedi knight dark forces 2, still older

[peak marsh]

Unreal was one of my favorite FPS games back in the day

That and Tribes on the Team Aerial Combat mod

And Gunz: The Duel before they screwed that game up

[timber prism]

Gliders in Archeage MMO and that was 2013... Was a lot of fun for pvp

🥰

https://youtu.be/CwlMLCKsfqE?si=EFu_BnCBZf7cZs2e

Best glider ever

[frank sonnet]

did any of the early 3d Zelda games have gliders?

[runic basin]

I remember coding a grappling hook for Quake when i was a kid

That and a zombie grenade

[timber prism]

Yeah. Quake def had grappling hooks. That was good times

[tepid wadi]

Archeage trade pack PvP was the best implementation of "some loot PvP" we've gotten so far I think. With the gilda stars and stuff? Peak.

[vague galleon]

okay but im not talking anour the first time it was used. im talking about what game seemed to make an impact with the mechanic and cause everyone to catch on.

[peak marsh]

Bionic Commando

xD

[vague galleon]

man i was ass at that game.
the trailer had such a good song though...

[peak marsh]

https://www.techspot.com/news/108363-thieves-steal-almost-3000-switch-2-consoles-worth.html

[peak marsh]

https://www.eurogamer.net/final-fantasy-tactics-remade-by-sheer-force-as-original-source-code-no-longer-exists

[tranquil cove]

i never played or heard of a single game with a glider, so i did think that up on my own at the time

quake 1996? i never played quake

[tepid wadi]

Gliders, jetpacks and grappling hooks, making games better since forever

[timber prism]

Yep. Gliders and grappling hooks have been used for years. Its not a new thing at all. I think Quake for me was the first time where it became a huge thing because everyone was modding it in for pvp.

[timber prism]

One of my fav NES games

[timber prism]

Damn. You missed out. Quake is such an iconic game and changed the industry.

[tranquil cove]

I saw friends playing it, so i kind of was doing in person gameplay video

I never really wanted to play it, I was not big on FPS

the only FPS games I ever played and completed, where Duke Nukem, Half life 2 and Blueshift, and Metro 2033.

I never tried DOOM either

[timber prism]

Damn

[tranquil cove]

I dont know if you consider Mass Effect an FPS, maybe a little bit, so I played Mass Effect 2, didn't really like one.

[timber prism]

That whole era of Wolfenstein, Doom, Hexen, and Quake was crazy for PC fps

[tranquil cove]

And the some starwars games, republic commando, jedi knight dark forces 2.

Yeah played none of those

[timber prism]

Duke nukem was corny but it was one of the firsts where I made maps

[tranquil cove]

I even owned Serious Sam, but I didn't like it, so never completed it, don't think I played it very far either.

[timber prism]

But yeah. Quake imo was very pivotal for the change to 3D fps instead of being 2.5D

[tranquil cove]

my time as a kid was spent on weirder games, like conquest of the new world, Lords of the Realm 2, Cesar 2, Sim City 2000, Chessmaster 5000, Age of Empires 1 etc. I didn't even like starcraft.

[timber prism]

Even though Descent and Star fox was a thing they never really catapulted 3D gaming like Quake

[tranquil cove]

Roller Coaster Tycoon 2

[timber prism]

Not liking starcraft is crazy

XD

[tranquil cove]

oh I played GTA2

[timber prism]

Warcraft and Starcraft were such good games

[tranquil cove]

I think I played Mafia actually, and I also played Max Payne

Max Payne can be an FPS i completed

[peak marsh]

Except the WC3 remaster. We don't talk about that one xD

[tranquil cove]

Yeah lots of people like starcraft/warcraft

[timber prism]

Max payne is not a fps

[tranquil cove]

but I guess I stayed away from mainstream stuff mostly

[timber prism]

Unless you modded it

[tranquil cove]

entirely not an FPS? you have a gun, and you shoot, does it really matter if you're in first person?

[timber prism]

The FP literally stands for first person

So yes.

[tranquil cove]

okay but to me it doesnt matter

it gives me the same feeling as a game in first person, because of the shooter part

so i class it the same

[timber prism]

<.<

Okay

[tranquil cove]

i guess they call max payne a TPS

[timber prism]

Yeah. Being third person. It would hope so

[tranquil cove]

okay yeah you're right its a TPS since those games have their own label

[timber prism]

You can just generalize and call them shooters

[tranquil cove]

i didn't even remember max payne was third person when i mentioned it first

its been like 15 years since i played it

[timber prism]

Same but I still remember it since it was iconic of slow motion and seeing bullets miss you since you are in third person

[tranquil cove]

oh and of course i was into BG2, and icewind dale, and never winter nights

i hated how the dragons looked in NWN

[timber prism]

Im so glad I didn't buy that lmao

WC3 itself was amazing tho

Without it we wouldn't have Dota

[tranquil cove]

never played DOTA either lol

[timber prism]

I didn't play much Dota outside of WC3 but I played a lot of League

[tranquil cove]

I really hate league

wouldn't touch that with 10 foot pole 🤣

[timber prism]

You don't seem to like pvp

So that makes sense

[tranquil cove]

i mostly dislike the culture of it, like sure there is competitive nature, but also the way the do the art for the women characters. the type of people who play the game, their personalities... sure i might be generalizing, but i never really found a league player who i thought was an amazing human being.

[timber prism]

You are definitely generalizing

[tranquil cove]

and the most annoying thing of all, the people who play league, buy like 10 games to play with their friends, and then all they do is play league all day still.

it's very annoying

so they just collect games, make their friends buy games too, and then play league still

it's all they do all day

[timber prism]

League is just that much fun

[tranquil cove]

i could say the same about WOW

actually

but at least WOW is better

[timber prism]

It really isnt

That's just subjective

[tranquil cove]

oh dont get me wrong i also dislike wow, but it's better than league

[timber prism]

No. It really isnt

Its just another game

[tranquil cove]

i did PVP in ultima online

but i didn't play ultima online to PVP

its just something that happened, because of player killers trying to kill me

and then me making 200 player guild, on a 400 player server so we could be relatively safe from the player killers

[timber prism]

In terms of gaming impact, you can argue that League is actually a better game than WoW

[tranquil cove]

i was RPing in ultima online

[timber prism]

It really took off gaming as a sport globally

More so than starcraft ever did

[tranquil cove]

i mean starcraft kinda started it

[timber prism]

Starcraft is a pioneer sure

But as far a mainstream global impact

Its definitely League

Being free also makes it much easier to just pick up and try out

[tranquil cove]

im not into competitive games, i dont really want to spend my hours trying to click faster than the other guy, and macroing keys, pressing buttons the best. that's all it is fundementally if you already know all the tactics, and how to read the battle.

which you can learn in the first few months, and then its down to button mashing

i'd rather translate talent into building stuff in a game

and build the most impressive/best stuff

[timber prism]

Its a very naive thing to say that its button mashing

But its probably because you just dont understand

[tranquil cove]

competitive games will always raise your fight/flight reflex, so your in a heightened state of anxiety, and those chemicals are always in your body. i do believe that violence in games makes people more violent, including competitive games where you can get verbally attacked/trolled.

so i tend to not even bother with shooting games anymore

[timber prism]

Yikes

[tranquil cove]

makes people more violent doesn't translate to them going out doing violence

but it contributes to your overall state of being

[timber prism]

<.<

[tranquil cove]

Valourant isn't saying "games cause violence" in a simplistic way — they're pointing out how the emotional and chemical effects of constant high-stress gaming and exposure to online toxicity can change your state of being over time. That’s a subtle but important distinction.

thank you chatgpt

[timber prism]

Thanks GPT. I understood how wrong he was the first time

Better not play Enshrouded since the combat will make me a violent person

[tranquil cove]

1. Fight-or-Flight Response in Competitive Games

True: Competitive games, especially fast-paced shooters, do activate the fight-or-flight response — your body releases adrenaline, cortisol, and other stress hormones. Implication: Prolonged exposure without proper regulation or breaks can contribute to chronic stress or anxiety, especially in individuals already prone to it.

I would actually contest this

even with proper breaks, and regulation, it's changing your mental state over a long period of time.

As when you completely stop playing these games for a few months you notice you are calmer overall, and feel more relaxed. Get less frustrated/anger from other things in your life that might cause frustration or anger.

[tranquil cove]

enshrouded isn't pvp, its not competitive, it's not person vs person violence, it doesn't have gun violence, or overt scenes of blood/gore etc.

[timber prism]

It has combat

It has you killing enemies

[tranquil cove]

it's also more detached from reality, and more in a fantasy setting.

[timber prism]

Pvp doesn't matter

Your inability to detach a fps from reality doesnt make it bad

[tranquil cove]

well league for example, has toxicity, and PVP/comeptitive play, and human vs human violence. but what it does have going for it, is that it's more in a fantasy setting, so that's good i guess. and there's no overt gore.

[timber prism]

I'm going to just stop this convo

You have a good day

[tranquil cove]

yeah you should, especially if you dont understand the nuance of the position i'm making.

or the science behind it

lol

being in a competitive game where you get randomly attacked, and always have to defend your ego/skill and pit yourself against other players. especially if you're easily provoked, and not a buddhist monk or something who leaves their ego at the door?

is equivalent to being in a chat room where people are attacking you none stop.

[timber prism]

Lol

[tranquil cove]

Impact: This can negatively affect mental health, especially over time — causing burnout, low self-esteem, or general withdrawal from online communities.

[timber prism]

Im sorry you feel that way

But that's not how everyone experiences that

But I can understand why you dont pvp

If that's how it makes you feel

And its unfortunate

[tranquil cove]

unless you develop tools to deal with it, kids are especially vulnerable.

i spent my whole life in toxic environments, not related to pvping

but i would have been better off if i didn't

the only benefit is over time i developed resilience.

and a strong will power and other tools to deal with toxicity, like high confidence.

but you know not everyone will develop those positives, some people do self harm etc... and worse things

and i can recongize not being in these environments is better, you're 100% happier being outside in nature, than in a competitive game getting insulted for your skill level.

[timber prism]

Maybe you are

Im completely unaffected by someone insulting me in a video game

[tranquil cove]

try staying away from fps, counter strike type games, competitive games/pvp for 2 months and see if you feel differently.

[timber prism]

I have

Its the same

But I'm also not usually one get yelled at for being bad

Im on a year+ break from league

Unless you count aram

I grew up in the competitive scene so like everything you said doesnt affect me

Playing fighters as a kid in the arcade scene

Fps games, mmo pvp, rts pvp

Pvp games are just games but I do agree they are more intense environments which isnt inherently a bad thing

[tepid wadi]

Blending PvP and PvE definitely can enrich both sides if done properly

[timber prism]

I thought archeage did a great job at that

[tepid wadi]

100%

Boats, gliders, trade packs, it was amazing pvp

But then the farming, dungeons, pve content gave you something to do when you didnt want the risk/stress

Ome of the things that I think can make MMOs greater than the sum of their parts

[timber prism]

Yeah. I will always credit Archeage for being great at that

Personally. I pvp'd unless I had to do the other stuff for progression

But it always led back to pvp

The diplomacy was the most fun part

[tepid wadi]

The thing that makes me hopeful for Ashes of Creation is that they've cited archeage a lot. I just hooe they take the right lessons.

[timber prism]

Currently no haha

They made resources such a slog in its current build that it drove a lot of testers away

Bc you can't even caravan

[tepid wadi]

RIP

[timber prism]

My friend said it was limit testing to see what people would take before leaving

So im hopeful its adjusted for the new build

The pvp looks fun tho

My friend sent me a video of a 8v8 tourney they had

[tepid wadi]

They should just hire me to work on their social systems. One of the things that made archeage great was that there was so much to do that just didnt matter.

I loved the music system, for example

[timber prism]

Yeah

I hope it has languages to learn

[tepid wadi]

I just hope they dedicate enough energy to make all the non-combat systems more than just passable. From what I've seen, their crafting is just standard dogwater with ingredient rarity and that makes me so mad

[timber prism]

I haven't done much crafting to see

[tepid wadi]

Crafting is my MMO special interest so I watched some videos on it. Its such a rich opportunity space that always ends up as an afterthought. Even though some of the head honchos at Intrepid have said they want it to be a main acquisition path for high level gear.

[peak marsh]

I will henceforth simply refer to all of them as "pew pew games"

[peak marsh]

https://lifehacker.com/entertainment/amazon-prime-gaming-is-offering-six-free-pc-games -free stuff if you have Prime anyhow

[floral prairie]

https://tenor.com/view/bazinga-gif-27357164

[vague galleon]

man the jetpack in Bounty Hunter was soooo awful.

[peak marsh]

I wish Firefall would get a proper remake. That jetpack was great

[peak marsh]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAJy_apvXQo - Niche, but also cool and I kinda want one 😐

[vague galleon]

probably because you're a neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeerd. 😛

but ya, whatever that is it looks cool

[frank sonnet]

eh i'm going to stick to my lenovo laptop

[vague galleon]

i wish I had the spare cash for a thinkpad.

[timber prism]

Chrono Odyssey invites started if you all applied

[vague galleon]

finally the trilogy is complete.

[timber prism]

Got any links? Would love to check them out. I personally loved omnicrafting in FF14. The synergies between crafts was awesome. To a lesser extent Fantasy Life had fun crafting in it as well. Big fan of mini games

[tepid wadi]

Lol, you want to read my 17 page design document for building a skill-based crafting system? Because FF14 is pretty much the only modern MMO crafting system that even tries to do anything interesting.

Some older games like SWG did some interesting stuff, but almost every MMO crafting system boils down to "push button, receive item"

[tepid wadi]

Basically, yeah

I worked on GW2 like 14 years ago and I was the main tester for their crafting system before launch. I tried to advocate for a more interesting system because the 'discovery' system they used was basically not interesting once you understood how it worked, but... I was just a green QA tester and was way too late in the dev process to make any meaningful change

[peak marsh]

I mean, for the most part crafting systems are one of the aspects of MMOs that haven't significantly evolved since Ultima Online. Press a button and let the numbers do the rest

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, which is a real shame

[peak marsh]

Like I literally can't even name one that I feel does anything revolutionary

[tepid wadi]

There are lots of other games that do interesting things with crafting though. Kindom Come Deliverance 2 is a good example, the blacksmithing in that game is super interesting. Palia's cooking system is pretty neat, and would slot perfectly into a MMO. Potion Craft is a really cool Alchemy game.

But for MMOs? Always an afterthought 😢

[peak marsh]

It almost feels more like it's there begrudgingly in some MMOs, like they only added it because MMOs are "supposed" to have crafting and not because it adds something significant to the game

[frank sonnet]

why have crafting in the first place?

[peak marsh]

Because it's another form and source of player agency

Simply having one gives people another option in how they can interact with the world

[tepid wadi]

A proper crafting system can appeal to a different sort of player than things like combat. If a MMO had solid crafting systems that were skill based, you'd have members of the community that are highly skilled crafters and are valued by their guild or other social circles. It creates a level of immersion and a style of gameplay totally separate from the "standard" portions of MMO gameplay. You might have players who basically ONLY do crafting things, but still love the game, and you provide other players with alternative activities to just going to do dungeons or fight enemies or whatever.

It also expands your playerbase by drawing interest from other types of players. Those players who love the crafting system might try out PvP or exploration activities, but they would never have even tried the game if it was ONLY those sort of activities.

[peak marsh]

And I mean, you see that even now with the limited forms of crafting that do exist. Some games have entire large, powerful guilds of primarily crafters because of the kind of economic power they can wield

[tepid wadi]

I could rant about various reasons for it for hours 😝 It could drive really interesting mobile integration, you could use it to heighten the value of exploration of the world, you can create player-driven economies focused around crafting...

[peak marsh]

That last one is pretty huge all by itself. Games like Eve and PoE are driven in major ways by their player run and operated economies

Heck even back before it was on Steam in like 2012ish I knew guys who hadn't run a map in PoE in ages, they effectively spend their entire playtime working the economy like a stock market and growing their wealth through trading and making deals

It's pretty potent what giving players economic freedom and creativity can add to an experience

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, I have a buddy who loves the 'economy sim' aspect of MMOs

[peak marsh]

To expand on my first answer, the entire idea of an MMO is to be able to live a second life in this game world, in a sense. Like, you want players to exist in and interact with the world through their character. If you equate the game world to the real one, (in most places) when you want to work and make money you have a series of choices to pick from, and you want your virtual world to be no different. You want people to have broad freedom of choice and be limited as little as possible because it makes your world more vibrant and 'alive'

And also much like in the real world, there's a lot of satisfaction to be had from creating something after hours of work and practice, and that kind of satisfaction is also something crafting systems bring to the table. If you spent 80 hours mastering a crafting system and can make say, masterwork swords only a handful of players are able to make, there's a very high degree of reward in terms of the satisfaction that player is going to feel

And yeah, it would be moreso if the system was so intricate that you could get different outcomes by say changing the temperatures you smelt and quench at, or even if you could get a better result by using a rare, hard to find coal to power your forge

Things that actual blacksmiths back in the day used to do

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, there's so much potential for player engagement and enjoyment that is just totally untapped with MMOs

[peak marsh]

I mean it really does feel like a lot of systems just haven't been expanded on since they were invented. Crafting, taming, player based marketplaces, and even sub-genres within crafting like cooking, alchemy, smithing, fletching, there are so many different things you could do with those but they just get lumped under the umbrella of "crafting"

[tepid wadi]

And it could be supported by excellent systems too. Crafting quests, rare crafting visual styles, reputation with different crafting groups, commerce involved transporting crafted items, etc etc etc

[vague galleon]

my biggest pet peeve with MMOs is the singleplayer storylines they all seem to do, they never make me feel like im actually in a massive world of adventurers or anything.

(second issue is the awful combat most of them have)

[peak marsh]

"You are the chosen one. Now get in the Disneyland-length line to hand in your quest with all the other choen ones"

[vague galleon]

exactly.

how does wow have worst quests than runescape? XD

[peak marsh]

A lot of MMO worlds feel like people just call you "The Chosen One" because if they do they can give you a couple gold to clean their toilets and pull up the weeds in their yards xD

[vague galleon]

yup

maybe I'm dumb but I really appreciate one of runescapes first quest cause it actually feels involved. sure im just gathering ingredients for a cake but it's an involved learning experience.

[peak marsh]

Like two NPCs are talking and they're like "No really, all I did was call him the chosen one and give him a couple bucks and he totally shoveled all the manure in my field, I couldn't believe it- SHH SHHH, he's coming... HAIL CHOSEN ONE!"

[frank sonnet]

the thing is modern gamers don't want to be forced to work or deal with people

[vague galleon]

modern gamers are dumb.

the downside I see is that if you cant find another player to do a quest with, RIP

[peak marsh]

I mean, they do but you have to A) Make the process appropriately rewarding and interesting, and B) Not make it a pain in the ass or a step backwards. Players will work and interact loads if you make it engaging enough, it's just most games either make it a tedious grind, or make it less convenient than other modern alternatives like auction houses and dungeon finders

Like the way to get people to interact isn't to remove dungeon finders and just make it a pain in the ass to group up with people, it's to have activities that make players actively want to seek each other out

A lot of the anti social aspects of modern games isn't a result of lazy players, it's lazy developers xD

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, the social gameplay is the thing that makes MMOs special, and none of them really lean into that

[vague galleon]

exactly.

[peak marsh]

Take a game like Dark Souls. It's a game that A) takes a lot of work to be good and have good stuff, and B) Isn't inherently designed for player interaction, at least not on it's surface, yet not only do millions of players work hard to be good at it, they also find very creative and memorable ways of interacting with each other even though the game literally makes it difficult to do

[vague galleon]

always dreamed of an awesome dot hack game where player guilds actually have effects on things and stuff like that.

[tepid wadi]

My favorite part about MMOs is that they're this massive web of interconnected systems, and the only way to be successful with one is to have a really strong web that has different nodes within it interacting with each other in positive ways. It's such a hard problem to solve, but provides such an awesome potential.

[peak marsh]

And yet most developers only work on two of the threads: combat and story/presentation

Everything else is an afterthought

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, and I get that every MMO "Comes from" somewhere as its core system. I spend a lot of time thinking about what a modern MMO could do that just isn't possible with other games. Kingdoms, world PvP, interesting justice systems, social crafting gameplay... there's just so much untapped potential.

I keep coming back to the idea that what if the central core system for a MMO is the crafting system(s)?

[peak marsh]

Heck why don't we have crafting professions that feed other professions? In most games the end result is you just make things for combat but what if you wanted to excel at cooking so you go to a really good blacksmith for quality pots and pans?

Things like that where the system also feeds into itself instead of crafting just being the thing you do to sell weapons/potions

[frank sonnet]

i mean if a game allowed me to be like a battle blacksmith that would be pretty cool

[peak marsh]

No reason that also couldn't be an option. Even in the real world a lot of blacksmiths were also pretty handy with a sword because how else are you going to test your products?

Test 100 swords with 100 swings each and suddenly you find you're kinda good at swinging a sword. But I'm also a fan of limitations, like you shouldn't be as adept as the person who literally does nothing but swing a sword

I'm not a fan of the relatively recent game trend where everyone can just do everything because it leaves no point to specializing and one of the rewards of devoting your time to mastering a skill or trade is the knowledge and satisfaction that not everyone can do it as well as you can

And the moment they can it just becomes a box you check off instead of something you're devoted to

[vague galleon]

ya but ive restarted oblivion so many times because of that.

[peak marsh]

How do you mean?

[tepid wadi]

I don't mind that trend conceptually, but things just don't tend to take enough investment to be meaningful. Like if I can buy all the resources and level my blacksmithing form 0 to 300 in an hour or two, yeah it's gonna be pretty meaningless no matter how you slice it.

[vague galleon]

realizing I dont like how I specialized

[peak marsh]

That but also, where's the satisfaction in being a master smith if literally everyone is also a master smith?

[peak marsh]

I mean yeah, that's what the system evolved from, making it so people don't need to have a bunch of alts or restart their characters. Which is fine on it's surface but when everyone is exceptional at everything then no one is exceptional at anything

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, but on the other hand, if it took 80+ hours for someone to become a master blacksmith, who is to say they can't also become a master leatherworker with a similar amount of investment?

And before you ask "wouldn't that be a terrible grind?" my response is: not if the actual activity of blacksmithing is actually fun.

[vague galleon]

its six of one half a dozen of the other for me.

[peak marsh]

I mean, even with that I feel like it should be capped at a point because even if the time investment is steep, you'll still have more people than not just mastering everything and removing the purpose of ever having masteries in the first place

[tepid wadi]

Perhaps, but that's no different than people just making alts to do the exact same thing.

[peak marsh]

And realistically you're not going to become a master mechanic/leatherworker/musician/MMA fighter/engineer/painter. Like, lifetimes aside most people have limitations

[tepid wadi]

If you crafting minigames are fun and varied enough that people want to master all of them, I'd say let them. You've got a player who is going to invest hundreds if not thousands of hours in your game. Let them play how they want

[peak marsh]

Now you could counter by saying "games don't need to be realistic" but I think when you're making effectively a life simulator with magic, in certain realms you do

[tepid wadi]

There can also be specializations that are unrelated to the specific crafts. Like if I'm a master blacksmith of <kingdom A> that gives certain benefits, I probably also can't be a master blacksmith of <kingdom B> that gives different benefits.

Or whatever

[peak marsh]

That might be a thought. Or have deeper specializations within a certain craft. Like anyone can become a high level smith on a basic level making simple items, but you need to choose say weapons and armor in order to be able to make masterworks etc

Meaning you can't go back and also be a master tool smith

But also these are all things I'm spit balling with the assumption of an extremely healthy player base. The games that let people just master everything have the benefit of being able to sustain when player population isn't at peak levels

"Oh crap, we want to run a raid and there's no healer. No problem, I'll just swap to healing", that sort of thing

But that also IMO turns the game into a gray gloop of "why even have classes at that point"

[vague galleon]

FLavor

FF14 seems to be doing just fine there.

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, sort of. But again I think the investment is the question. If it takes a long time to master a craft, then the amount of people who are gonna do it is going way down. And if you have 5+ crafts that all take that much time? Either not many people are gonna do them all, OR you're looking at your most dedicated player base.

And if they're mastery based systems, which means you might not be good at them or might not enjoy the game itself, then that further reduces the expected engagement.

But if they're well designed, for every person who HATES the minigame, there will be 3-5 who LOVE it.

[peak marsh]

Well, and I'm also willing to admit I might be in the minority on my opinion because more and more games are adapting multi-skilling as a core option. And again, from a standpoint of sustainability it's objectively a good choice because you don't find yourself with the issue where when population wanes, so do certain skills or classes

[vague galleon]

the question is what is the real difference between making another character and just being able to respec your existing one.
time invested is roughly the same, minus having to replay all the story beats, and tutorial.

[peak marsh]

But I do feel it ultimately waters things down because at a certain point, there's nothing special about devoting yourself to a particular class or trade and also at a certain point you have to make the mastery process less involved because people aren't going to want to spend the time to master everything if it's difficult but also the "standard" way to play

Because that's what happens, if you can master everything, it becomes standard to master everything

[vague galleon]

i dont feel thats true.

certainly not for me.

[peak marsh]

So now it's a matter of how much time does someone need to devote in order to do that

[tepid wadi]

It also depends on the way the game is designed I think. You'd have to build the game in a way that supports the progression system that you want to build.

[peak marsh]

I mean it depends on whether you play casually or want to dive into the game. If mastering everything is an option, most of your high level groups and guilds are going to want other players who have mastered everything

[tepid wadi]

Well, if you're building a MMO, you're going to want players to want to play the game for thousands of hours, so your designs should definitely support that level of investment.

IMO the character progression shouldnt necessarily be a main focus. Like, if you build a MMO with a long leveling curve, you're going to have a lot of "dead design" because you have to make a world for all levels of player progression.

You obviously have to give players clear goals, but you dont even necessarily need a strong leveling system. GW2 has been thriving and they havent raised their level cap, they just make lots of good new content for players to enjoy.

[peak marsh]

Well and also playstylke matters a lot. Like, some people are playing to experience a social environment while others are playing to power game and be at the bleeding edge of levels and equipment, so even there I have to filter my opinion through the lens of "well that's what I want, but what about the 12 other approaches"

Which ultimately is one of the most difficult things about designing an MMO. With an action game for example, you know pretty much everyone is going to want to approach it from one standpoint: "I want to play an action game". With an MMO, you have a lot more to consider because different people want such different things from an MMO experience and you have to be able to appeal to most if not all of them while also having a clear identity

Something that appeals to everyone ultimately appeals to no one, but also niche MMOs die on the vine. Or something like that xD

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, I think any solid MMO design has to have a multi-pronged approach. Like, you design the dungeon/raiding system for the achievers, you design the world for the explorers, you design the crafting minigames for the people who will like them. Instead of dumbing everything down to mediocrity, you accept that not every player will like every aspect of the game and design them with that expectation.

[peak marsh]

It's almost at a level where you need a separate dev team for each system. Like, it's wild how much you need to consider when making an MMO

[timber prism]

If its easily accesible sure... but I was just referring to the video links you talked about lmao

[timber prism]

Dont forget being their personal mailman/amazon delivery.

[tepid wadi]

Ah, I'd need to dig it up, it's been a while since I watched anything about it.

[timber prism]

the worst ones are the super lazy fetch quest when they are less than 10 feet apart

[tepid wadi]

The design doc is easy because I'm actively working on it to build a prototype

It's 6 months old now, so IDK if there's been any actual updates in how crafting works. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgT_8NqoRwU

[arctic tartan]

Can i post my friend referral link for aura kingdom impact here to get pre-register rewards from people goin through my link ?
I'll wait for an answer befor doing anything don't worry. It doesn't require any commitment from you, and you won't have to download anything. It's just 2 minutes of your time and hours of gameplay for me. Thanks in advance if some of you take the time! Enjoy the shroud, everyone! 🫡

[timber prism]

this game sucks

XD

[peak marsh]

That bad?

[timber prism]

so far yeah

haha

greatsword at least doesn't feel great

enemy designs are awful

server lag is pretty noticeable but im also on S1

and its definitely in the yellow atm compared to other servers

[timber prism]

I wish it had Crimson Desert combat

[timber prism]

what in the Giger is this? lmaooo

[peak marsh]

Looks like you need a flame thrower instead of a greatsword xD

[timber prism]

dual blades feels better than greatsword... maybe there is something im not getting but i would think that a slower bigger weapon would do more damage but its not great at rage (resource) build up and it doesn't really feel good to use

its almost just a mandatory swap just because it has more cooldowns to use

you have gimmicky stance dancing like "swap to greatsword to get cc immunity for x seconds"

[peak marsh]

Erf. Never been a fan of forced weapon swapping

[timber prism]

yeah its mandatory bc you have 4 skills per weapon on your bar

i actually like stance dancing in mmo's

but with only three weapons.. its kinda like eh

[peak marsh]

I mean, it's fun when it's an option but not when it's required. Same reason I can't get behind games like Genshin or Wuthering Waves

[timber prism]

gameplay wise.. its getting closer to like Vindictus boss battles which is kinda cool

oh. i really enjoy WW combat haha

[peak marsh]

Is it instanced like Vindictus?

[timber prism]

umm. i definitely had to go into an instance to fight this one boss

just now

but nah, there is open area mobbing

you also level up weapons separately

by using them

[peak marsh]

Ok cool. Instanced MMOs start to feel boring to me

Like why even call it an MMO if everyone is playing single player and you never see anyone except for certain hubs

[timber prism]

yeah, totally agree haha

[tepid wadi]

Yeah we all agree there

[timber prism]

crafting is as generic as it comes for this mmo

pay to process resources, pay to craft item... typical rarity just hit craft button

[tepid wadi]

Unsurprising

[timber prism]

want more crit rate.. sacrifice defense XD

[tepid wadi]

Sometimes I feel like I'm the only person who thinks its an issue

[timber prism]

i think people just like to turn their brain off when it comes to crafting sets

but no you aren't the only one.. bc I also want complex crafting w/ fun mini games attached to them

it would be nice to have a mmo where you can totally just be a crafter

or gatherer...

the issue i have in survival games is that it often just ends up being hyper focused on leveling one or two people per craft

and then you have gathering slaves who feed the crafters.. and crafters just build everything for the combat guys

and thats literally the fastest way to progress a community to reach endgame first

[tepid wadi]

I mean that's kind of unavoidable from an optimization standpoint, large groups will always do that to be efficient

BUT, I don't think it's a huge problem. If the crafting system is just... fun to do, then after people blast through the optimized version, they'll engage with it to keep playing because it's a good time.

[peak marsh]

I mean it's an Asian developed MMO, and in asian MMOs action combat goes brrr

[tepid wadi]

Sure, but just because combat go brrrr doesn't mean other things can't also be good\

If the combat is the only good thing, the game will surely die

[peak marsh]

Just from what I'm seeing so far that's probably a realistic outcome tbh xD

It's not bad it just feels unremarkable

[tepid wadi]

Basically every recent MMO has felt like that

[peak marsh]

Like, it's okay, the combat is decent, but it's not what I'd call especially engaging or immersive

I tend to agree with people who are calling it a jankier New World

[tepid wadi]

Too bad, the theme and visuals seemed neat

[timber prism]

i am actually having fun now lmao

dropped this sweet neck

[peak marsh]

I'm giving it a chance to grab me. I am digging the combat so far

[timber prism]

i want to play a mage class to see how it is

[peak marsh]

It's kinda funny, I've now seen 3 different reviews where the reviewer walled at that first boss in the HR Geiger room with the spear and quit xD

[timber prism]

but i definitely already see myself doing 3x the work range has to do on world bosses

just from enemy movesets.... it totally just favors ranged so far

[peak marsh]

I'm doing ranger but it feels off with the targeting and trying to manual aim just isn't the way with how combat is paced

Mage might have a better time of it

[timber prism]

my friend is saying its literally just backpedal and headshot with ranger

which doesn't sound fun

but its hella effective

[peak marsh]

The way I've been playing it is just actively dodging, not necessarily back pedaling

I'm playing with a controller also though, that may be the difference

Kinda curious how assassin is

[tepid wadi]

Balancing ranged vs melee in action combat is always a challenge

[peak marsh]

Ok, it starts to feel a bit better as you progress

[peak marsh]

The game definitely needs a lot of optimizing still

Just had my second crash and the entire time it's running my fan sounds like a turbine

[tranquil cove]

there was apparently a big data breach, 16 billion passwords and usernames

[peak marsh]

Yeah gathering definitely feels tedious

[tranquil cove]

i was wondering if someone can tell me

if you used the haveibeenpwned website to discover if your email was exposed in databreach, that only means the password you used on those websites was exposed right? not the actual email password?

[peak marsh]

I posted a video about that in #off-topic , it's a nothing burger

[tranquil cove]

ok ill check that out, but what about my question

[peak marsh]

Im not familiar with the site

[tranquil cove]

you put in your email address, it tells you if your email came up in databreaches

it stores no data

made by a white hat hacker or something

seems good it was able to decipher which emails i used to sign up for things, since different emails signed up for different things.

[peak marsh]

Yeah my guess would be the password for the site affected by the data breach, using the email you submitted as a user name

Not the email password itself

[tranquil cove]

so basically only if you used the same password as your email

ok good

which i never do

[peak marsh]

@tepid wadi yeah the life skilling is bad

Basically in order to craft anything like weapons or armor you need a resource called Arche, which drops randomly as you perform gathering skills (mining/logging/gathering etc). It's entirely random and comes in 3 different tiers based on the material being gathered

[tepid wadi]

<deep sigh>

[peak marsh]

Here's the kicker, you don't get them organically by gathering because the way you get your needed materials is doing bounty board quests. Basically kill a target, turn in for bounty points. Then the points are used to buy your chosen material

[tepid wadi]

...wat

So "gathering" is just combat with extra steps?

[peak marsh]

So you aren't gathering with a purpose, you're pressing E on a resource, waiting on a timer, and hoping to randomly get some Arche so you can craft

Literally all crafted equipment requires arche

Nah because the materials barely cost anything on the bounty shop, they're the easy part. It's doing the RNG grind to get enough of the right rarity Arche so you can actually make the things you need

And you're doing that for both weapons and 7 pieces of armor

[tranquil cove]

the video you posted has the site i mentioned to you. he even displays the same exact site in the video 🙂

[peak marsh]

You need about 10 Arche per item and each drop is like 3-5 when it does drop

[peak marsh]

Ah. Must have missed that because I've never had to use it

[tranquil cove]

though one thing

he displays a different site, where instead of typing your email, you just type one of the passwords you use, and see if its compromised...

LOL for obvious reasons i feel less safe using that

imo if you feel your password might be compromised, just change it, and make it really good, and you shouldn't even need to use that website.

[vague galleon]

i aint changing shit.

[tranquil cove]

i changed mine

it was like 20 years old

and it appeared in 16 databreaches

rofl, surprised i was never hacked

but yeah i dont use the same password for websites i use for emails

[timber prism]

i have been doing alright zero crashes since starting this morning

[peak marsh]

I mean it hasn't been super terrible, like when it's running it's smooth and everything, just had a couple weird freezes

Like one I found a muchroom that made me polymorph but I couldn't see into what because the camera suddenly went super close, then when I turned back I couldn't move, so I used unstuck and right after I landed in town it froze

Just weird jank like that

[timber prism]

game plays better than most krmmo's and its only beta

as far as optimization is concerned

games like BDO would crush fps being near towns

noticeable pop in for textures tho

[timber prism]

okay.. yeah.. I dont think i can play this game.. this gathering to make mats is so absurd lmao

its crazy how the devs said they were trying something different with this game and its like 80% a NW clone

[tepid wadi]

I mean it sounds thematically different

Maybe that's what they meant 😝

[vague galleon]

???????????

[peak marsh]

Yeah the gathering is a little extra. Especially with the arche costs

And same, I was getting loads of pop-in but I'm guessing that's a combination of "still needs optimized" and server load

[timber prism]

yeah arche costs

crafting solvents taking 6 herbs

per solvent... then need 1 solvent per potion is crazy lmao

maybe you get bonus crafts later or something to make it not as bad but its crazy lmao

[peak marsh]

Yeah, I thought I was stockpiling on the quest that has you make a potion, like "I'm gonna go over the top and get like 50 of them!" get to the crafting station, 6 potions 😐

I hope maybe at higher levels you get better crop yeilds or lower crafting costs or something because woof. that's going to get real grindy real fast

Also the whole aspect of "I have everything I need as far as materials, let me aimlessly gather random crap just so I can RNG up all the arche I need"

[timber prism]

yeah 100%

im curious if maybe you just aren't supposed to craft sets as far as armor/weapons go

cuz all the drops were like infinitely better.. just required levels to get

[peak marsh]

From what I noticed it was the opposite. Everything I crafted had a significantly higher item level then found stuff

[timber prism]

like the lvl 15 blue weapons dropping when you are lvl 5 is just crazy different

what item levels were you dropping?

cuz mine were all like 16-25 drops

from like world bosses etc.

[peak marsh]

I'm still pretty low, but when I was paying attention I was getting drops around item level 9 but I was crafting like 12 - 14

Killed like 3 world bosses but didn't see a gear drop :/

[timber prism]

the golem boss early on was dropping like ilvl 14 stuff

[peak marsh]

Maybe I just didn't roam far enough

[timber prism]

there was the public world bosses too that were much higher lvl

and required a raid to kill at a decent rate

[peak marsh]

I was doing bounties for materials to get my armor and weapons up to par

[timber prism]

it would form like a dome around everyone

[peak marsh]

I killed that dragon one, the giant spider, and the big wolf thing

[timber prism]

gotcha

did you get your snowy horse mount?

the public boss that made the dome was right in that area

[peak marsh]

You get a mount from a world boss?

[timber prism]

nah, its a quest

to calm and tame snowy

but the boss was around there

[peak marsh]

Oh. Not yet, I was still running around trying to gear up

I notice ranger's trade off is at least early my damage sucks compared to other classes

So I figured maybe my gear was the problem

Not just weapons but also passive perks from gear because I notice they all have attack boost, crit boost, etc as secondary stats

Which if I knew bosses dropped gear I would have just been farming those instead of interacting with that ridiculious crafting system xD

[timber prism]

yeah that crafting is not it XD

[peak marsh]

One thing that concerns me, and I get it, beta and all, but we still have no idea what the monetization will look like

Curious how much of it will be centered around crafting boosts, material boosts, etc

Because if it's accurate that the best gear is all crafted, that's going to be pretty P2W

[tranquil cove]

what game is this

[peak marsh]

Or maybe creating a problem to sell the solution. Make crafting so grindy that you break down and swipe

[timber prism]

lmao

that sounds very korean

[tranquil cove]

what game you crashing in?

[peak marsh]

Chrono Odyssey, a new Korean MMO they're beta testing this weekend

[tranquil cove]

ahh

[peak marsh]

I need to try some other classes before the test shuts down, but so far the gameplay itself feels pretty kinetic and fluid, and it feels great with a controller

Some of the shortcuts took a little getting used to but by and large while it has its issues I can see definite upsides

Thinking assassin looks interesting, and I want to try a pure melee so I'm torn between swordsman, paladin, and the zerker guy

[timber prism]

i enjoyed swordsman

im gonna try zerker next if i decide I play again

[peak marsh]

Wild how extremely polarized the early reviews are. Almost everything I'm seeing on YT is either "best, most exciting MMO of the year!" or "Embarassing, not ready, avoid at all costs"

[timber prism]

but im also like.. if im gonna play this.. i might as well just play NW lmao

[peak marsh]

Yeah, it does feel very New World-y

[timber prism]

those both definitely sound like sensationalized titles to get people to watch XD

the game truly feels pretty forgettable but its not awful.. just some systems i dont care for

[peak marsh]

Yeah, probably just hype farming

[timber prism]

there really isn't any other mmo thats coming out that isn't like a remake XD

im curious about Aion 2 news

[peak marsh]

I'm in the same boat. Like it doesn't feel bad, in fact the combat is pretty decent, but it also doesn't feel remarkable

[timber prism]

yeah, the combat is easily the best part for me haha

some stuff seemed liek no brainer picks tho for the trees

like who doesn't want 20% crit rate for 15 seconds every 30 seconds XD

[peak marsh]

I predict it'll come out in Q4 this year, and by Q1 it'll be sitting around 700 - 1k concurrent

[timber prism]

yeah.. im curious how long it will be populated on the sheer fact there is nothing else to play that is new XD

[peak marsh]

https://store.steampowered.com/app/3681810/Blue_Protocol_Star_Resonance/ - Finally confirmed for this year, FWIW

Steam

Blue Protocol: Star Resonance

Welcome to Regnus!

Begin your MMORPG adventure in an anime-styled fantasy world!…

Release Date

2025

▶ Play video

I say FWIW because instead of the Japanese Bandai-Namco, it's being run by a Chinese developer instead, which doesn't bode well for the monetization

[frank sonnet]

so its going to be another genshin impact type game?

[frank sonnet]

They have a uphill battle if that’s the case

[timber prism]

@peak marsh

[frank sonnet]

Looks like a ark character

[vague galleon]

i would love to have an MMO to fall in love with but it will never happen.

1. engaging combat, nothing like wow. ew. gotta have more hack and slash style like elder scrolls or dark souls or enshrouded.
2. a storyline that doesnt feel like it's out of a single player game.
3. involved quests where I have to go places and do things and interact with things.
4. feel like I'm actually living in a community.
5. reasons to interact with other players besides doing dungeons.
6. more team up quests with reasons for players to redo them or ways to mitigate needing other players.
7. the world map needs to look like an actual world, not just a bunch of leveled sections like wow did seperated by mountains.
8. minigames and chill spots and a reason to just come home and hang out in the game instead of having to touch grass.

stuff like that.

[peak marsh]

[peak marsh]

Hard to get all of those things in one game. LIke, PSO2 hits about 4 or 5 of your numbers but it's definitely not where you go for story. Back in the day Firefall would have been pretty close

Had action combat, had mini games, the story was a little thin but it had a strong sense of cooperation (community/interaction), the world felt varied and interesting, and it had jetpacks and cars and flying vehicles etc

If only the CEO wasn't an idiot, it's one of those games that could have stood the test of time

[vague galleon]

i wanted to play PSO2 for years, back in the day PSO was one of my most played games on GC. got to ultimate difficulty and level 104. 😄
but PSO2 had weird face customization and a super annoying NPC, that one trope I frigging hate, and I only played one weekend.

also I love games with hubworlds but I probably do prefer open worlds.

[peak marsh]

He got it in his head that instead of an MMO, Firefall was going to be the next big e-sport. So he had the dev team completely revamp the great PVE game to be primarily focused on these 5v5 PVP matches, spent millions of their budget on a custom tour bus so he could have a team drive around the country promoting it (the bus had monitors and built in PCs so they could literally have matches at conventions etc) and effectively chased away the entire community

[vague galleon]

PSO was actually the first place I used Endalrin, and the rework of my character to match my randomized badge has become ingrained pretty deep into my design philosophy for a long time.

(second character. second color, hmm, lol)

was originally dark green for some weird reason, but switched up to white armor and an icy blue mohawk.

(always had the mohawk) but also ya I had the scar over the eye!

the brinoac, my first red item, also matched my new look, which was perfect, even down to the orange trim.

i really got into the world of PSO....

[peak marsh]

You'd probably like PSO2 then. It's basically the same experience, but bigger with more stuff

[vague galleon]

story lost me. had nothing to do with the first game. >_>

and the ally NPC was FRIGGING ANNOYING, being the coward whos supposed to be a warrior trope.

[tepid wadi]

Man firefall was awesome until they abandoned the original premise.

[tepid wadi]

Idk this doesnt seem like a tall ask to me bit maybe I'm delusional

[peak marsh]

It's wild, I don't think I've ever seen a more misguided direction or a game go from so good to so bad so quickly and thoroughly

[vague galleon]

main things are I need the quests and etc to actually acknowedge that the game is an MMO

and the combat not to be the shitty auto combat that wow and FF14 use. God I hate it.

freaking puts me to sleep.

[tepid wadi]

Archeage is another example, but that was more mtx failure.

[peak marsh]

@vague galleon This thing

Spent 3 million of dev budget on it

Which in the scope doesn't sound huge but for a fledgling MMO from a smaller studio? It basically killed them

Plus that's only the cost to make it, not even factoring in the cost to staff, operate, and maintain it

[tepid wadi]

I wonder what happened to that thing

[peak marsh]

Apparently it's still just sitting in a warehouse somewhere

[vague galleon]

so did he ruin PSO2 or firefall or both?

[peak marsh]

Firefall. He didn't have anything to do with PSO2

[vague galleon]

thats cool though.

[peak marsh]

I mean, it is. Be a lot cooler if the game didn't die because of it xD

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fnOWw_uXB7s&t=463 - Moist Critical did a video going over it

[vague galleon]

what's the deal with moist? is he just another "influecer" or does he do anything specific?

[peak marsh]

More or less an influencer. Internet react video guy. He does other content but his main claim to fame is being a more gaming focused, less political Asmongold. Also without being an MMO goblin

[vague galleon]

isnt asmongold the dirty guy with gross hot takes or something?

ah ya, that loser.

frigging react videos. LAME

[peak marsh]

Yeah, used to do gaming focused videos but these days he just does far-right commentary

[vague galleon]

ewww

[peak marsh]

Basically appealing as hard as he can to the red ball cap crowd

[vague galleon]

absolute, chud? i think is the word.

[tepid wadi]

This is the sort of thing that I'd love to see in MMOs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcSEwcuMrqg

[peak marsh]

The team behind Helldivers 2 just really seems to get it. They didn't make a live service to basically create a platform where players create their own content, they actually provide content that the players can interact with and have an impact on and more games in general should be taking notes

And I mean, applied to an MMO it could be really engaging, like if you had these dynamic wars where territory is changing in real time based on player action, with invasions and pushes that have actual world-changing consequences

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, it really feels like they're doing a good job with it. I've love to see that in a MMO adapted for a persistent open world.

Like cities or kingdoms rising and falling, external enemy forces that actually mean something instead of just respawning, wandering mobs?

Could be amazing

[peak marsh]

Exactly. Like instead of bugs and androids, you're dealing with say orcs or other kingdoms but with that PVE element instead of PVP

[tepid wadi]

You could even combine it with PvP and PvE. Like when two kingdoms go to war, players can actually ally with either side, and there can be real stakes to the war. If the different kingdoms have different laws and such, territory shifting hands could have real impact on trade routes, mob expectations, etc etc

I've talked before about GMPC-run kingdoms, and that's the sort of thing that I would love to incorporate into this sort of system

Involving players in the way the story plays out adds a ton of investment

[peak marsh]

You could even have real consequences so players feel invested, like the GMPC kingdom wants to take over a profitable dungeon or mineral deposit, and the player side has to either fight to protect it or lose access until a push happens to reclaim it. Make the world feel dynamic by adding a sense of stakes and real potential loss

[tepid wadi]

Yeah exactly

Or maybe two kingdoms vying for control and the winning kingdom gets some benefit. But they also have different ideals, like one is more industrious and focused on getting the resources and the other is focused on symbiosis and keeping the mine area pristine for whatever reason.

[peak marsh]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIgfZhJzY7w - weird situation

TL;DW: The devs for Chrono Odyssey basically released a statement saying the playtest is actually an old build from like a year ago and they have a better version for internal testing

Which, doesn't that make the entire playtest pointless? Like you could call it server stress testing, but that basically means any testing or feedback outside of simply logging in is pointless. It's like:

Why would you make your first impression an outdated beta build, and why would you have a large scale stress test where all the feedback you're going to get doesn't matter because most of it already isn't in that same state

Like I honestly can't tell if they're actually making that baffling decision, or if it's some weird roundabout way to try to keep hype up and deflect criticism, but in either case it doesn't make sense

[tepid wadi]

Pretty sure it's the latter. Making a demo is a lot of work, but you cant get good feedback if the build is too out of date.

[peak marsh]

Yeah but I mean even if its that, you're only presenting the game in a worse state than it actually exists so you're going to wind up with the opposite effect, as is the case now, where people are just comparing your game to another, more polished game (New World)

[timber prism]

it really just depends on how much has changed from one build to another in terms of core functions

there are so many games that always provide older builds on their first public test

[peak marsh]

And I mean it makes sense with some of the lighting and pop-in issues I was seeing but like, you aren't helping your case if that's what you're doing and if that's not true and that was the game in it's best possible state, then you're just lying about something you're eventually not going to be able to hide especially considering it's due out this year and what we saw is more than a year of polishing

[timber prism]

the current build they are doing could be worse in terms of playability and stress testing player counts

like the most recent example of another game doing this is Dune

their test was all old builds

to what they released for EA

[peak marsh]

Yeah but I mean, why even release an old build at that point? If all you want is a stress test just take the newest build and restrict it to the beginner areas or something

[timber prism]

bc its probably more stable

and like i said.. the core functions probably aren't far off from the IT build

[peak marsh]

If that was more stable than yeah, wouldn't want to see less stable xD

[timber prism]

its not like they all of a sudden added animation cancelling

to combat

etc.

[peak marsh]

Yeah but I mean, the lighting and pop ins alone were bad to the point of getting distracting, why would you want that to be your first impression?

[timber prism]

i dunno

i dont think people logged out and stopped playing bc of pop in Xd

or lighting

i know i didnt

[peak marsh]

Sure, but what's the overwealming sentiment right now? "It's a worse New World"

[timber prism]

which is fine

[peak marsh]

"Doesn't look anything like the trailers"

[timber prism]

im sure the latest build is still worse than new world

[peak marsh]

Eh, fair xD

Just seems like a waste of time because like, 90% of the feedback you're going to get out of it is going to be meaningless

[timber prism]

i dont think so

maybe like 30% of it will be useless

me complaining about wanting to change their combat to animation cancel or reduce CD's or any of that will still be constructive

or changing crafting mat values

One thing that I think needs to happen is change the basic attack base value and remove having to spend 3 points to up that damage bc the way they have it now.. you are forced to do it

bc its so much better than any other ability

i got a nice damage abilty on GS that is really good but its also a 50 sec CD lmao

[peak marsh]

Yeah, having to spend points on basic attack didn't feel good, like your weapon upgrades should just handle that

[timber prism]

i dont really like the abilities aside from buffs

so its like... spend it all on passives XD

https://youtu.be/dSwDa4wKoKc?si=EBTri9a-HvrSjife

this looks goooooood

[tepid wadi]

I've hard good things about it.

[tepid wadi]

This is the weird part. If the demo isnt a good showing and they also cant get valuable feedback... why do it? Maybe a publisher agreement?

[timber prism]

They could also just be lying right?

and the IT build is just as bad XD

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, I try not to assume that though.

[peak marsh]

That's what I'm driving at. On either scenario they arent getting any benefit, it's a literal waste of time and resources

Like you're not only not showing the best possible state of the game but you're also rendering feedback kind of pointless

[tepid wadi]

Who knows.

Also apparently Bitcraft went into early access today? We'll see how that pans out too

[peak marsh]

It did? Yeah, hopefully it launches better than the 3 or 4 other attempts at that premise

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, seems kinda albion online ish?

I havent been following it.

[timber prism]

Definitely having server issues atm. I sat through a 30 minute queue, got in moved about 20 feet and player dsync'd... had to restart game and then it wouldn't even let me join the server

[peak marsh]

So apparently the cash shop as part of the tutorial is inaccurate, but evidentally BitCraft is going to launch as F2P with a cash shop -.- I was really hoping it was just a paid game

[timber prism]

Server was still up and running though bc friend was still logged in

Yeah. Definitely f2p with paid cash but its like to expand your city for larger communities

You dont have to do it but its there for streamers to make nations etc.

[peak marsh]

I mean (and I hate that gaming standards have slid to this point) I'd even be okay with $30 to play plus a cash shop because it means they wouldn't be squeezing everyone towards the mtx

[timber prism]

Those nations dont get anything beneficial towards progression.. its just for cosmetics

[peak marsh]

Hopefully it stays that way when it goes f2p

[timber prism]

There is nothing competitive other than seeing your nation colors

If the world runs out of space they will just add more world tiles

[frank sonnet]

his name lies

[peak marsh]

True. He's already starting on a lie xD

[timber prism]

At the end of the day its just "not runescape"

My friend is just afk fishing.. it seems like one of those games that you just play while working

There isnt anything super involved... the combat is super basic click on mob and watch numbers

[tepid wadi]

Ah, so not anything that any of us are super looking for

[peak marsh]

Which is weird because I've looked up several videos on it now and they've all said some form of "like Runescape" xD

That and I keep hearing Raft comparisons, which even ignoring the perspective, the art style, or the fact that it's an MMO, I'm simply not seeing

I guess because "you gather things" but that could be applied so any number of games, it's not necessarily a valid comparison

[tepid wadi]

Sounds like it pushes the monetization pretty hard, which is always sus

[peak marsh]

Fundamentally it seems like its entirely based around group grinding. Like 90% of what you're doing is gathering resources, and everything I've seen is saying that while you can play solo if you want, you're basically doing it on hard mode

Like everything requires resource contributions, and there are 10 tiers currently of each gathering skill which the devs say will "take months" to see the end of

[frank sonnet]

the art style kind of reminds me of west hunt

[peak marsh]

Yeah it's very much got the whole polygonal cel shaded look going

But yeah, for example if you want to create a settlement, you need the resources in order to build plus you need to contribute 20k of certain given resources, which is apparently pretty steep. So it basically impresses me as being a kind of multiplayer Stardew kind of thing, like it's all about getting together with friends and homesteading

[vague galleon]

🤣

[peak marsh]

Like the best experience is going to be jumping on with a handful of friends where you each specialize a couple of the gathering professions to streamline the progression

And that's apparently the core of the gameplay. Get on, click a thing, wait for numbers. It's very much not combat focused, it's all about gathering up enough resources to build the thing that will cost more resources

[tranquil cove]

you guys have friends?

[peak marsh]

Nope. That's why it probably won't be for me xD

[tranquil cove]

the whole play with friends thing never flies lol

the friends i have all do their own thing, or are too busy

[peak marsh]

I mean it can, and if the whole cozy gathering thing is your jam I could see this being popular

[tepid wadi]

You gotta have a game be fun alone AND with friends

[peak marsh]

Well that's the benefit of it being an MMO though. If you don't have friends you can just join another settlement or empire and contribute your resources there

[tranquil cove]

imo it's hard to find consistent people to game with, most MP/coop games are now people you find in the discord for that session, and after 2 weeks of binge playing you never talk to them again.

[frank sonnet]

nah i'm a warmonger i need bloodshed

[vague galleon]

yalll talking about chrono odyessey or something else

im so lost

[vague galleon]

what dis

[peak marsh]

That's kinda my thing. Like I need the gathering to be for a goal and not the goal in itself. I want to gether and get stronk like the bull

[tepid wadi]

Bitcraft

[timber prism]

yeah the Raft comparison boggles my mind...

[tepid wadi]

Lot of MMO types have trouble creating long term motivations other than gear treadmill

[timber prism]

Yeah.. the whole premise of the game is to build nations... so its understandable its not for solo players... ONE MAN NATION lmao

[peak marsh]

Same reason I couldn't get really into games like Stardew etc, after a while it just feels like empty resource gathering to me, but I understand that for a lot of people that's a blast. Back when I played on a realm in Minecraft we had a player who literally just wanted to farm and cook the whole time. She wasn't very into building, she didn't want to go fight things, she just wanted to keep everyone fed

[timber prism]

this is literally me.. and fishing

if there is fishing.. i dont care for anything else

[tepid wadi]

Youd get along with my buddy

Archeage deep sea fishing was goated

[timber prism]

100%

i was also a fisherman main when i wasn't stealing other people's fish XD

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, it was awesome.

[timber prism]

I was on a server with Steven who is making Ashes

[peak marsh]

I really missed the boat on Archage. I think when it was out I was knee deep into my ESO addiction period so it just passed me by, but I've heard so many people talk fondly about it

[timber prism]

the hilarity of that server

its my favorite MMO

[tepid wadi]

It was amazing until they killed it with predatory mtx

[timber prism]

in terms of memorable moments.. it was also janky XD

[tepid wadi]

If they hadnt done that I'd probably still be playing it.

[peak marsh]

That's what I've heard, the publisher just went way overboard with the MTX and basically killed the game

[timber prism]

there was a guild called "Death Law" who wanted to protect the seas for neutral fishing so everyone termed the nickname "fish law"

[tepid wadi]

It like ruined core systems of the game because of sold power. The labor system also wasnt awesome but not much of a problem if you had a subscription

[timber prism]

yeah it got out of hand real quick

like being able to buy items that would keep your gear from breaking

also p2w mounts

and gliders... im guilty of that.. the sloth glider was totally worth swiping for

[peak marsh]

That's gross. Durability systems are already a mixed bag unless done well, but as soon as you monetize it you're just creating an annoyance in order to sell convenience

[timber prism]

and the donkey that let you travel the seas

oh.. its not durability

its literally... keep you from destroying your item when trying to upgrade it

you have % chance of just deleting it

[peak marsh]

Oh, the gacha upgrade system. Can't stand those

Like have me lose the materials, fine, but also losing the weapon? Screw off

[timber prism]

the crafting in general was toublesome

[tepid wadi]

Yeah the crafting was real bad rng

[timber prism]

bc when u upgraded tiers.. it coudl be become 1 of 6 things

and only 1 of those could upgrade to the next tier

but it also made it amazing when you did

[tepid wadi]

One of my guildmates had a delphinaud bow. Which was like a 1/100000 chance to upgrade all the way.

[timber prism]

and early on.. somewhat rare

yeah, i had a delph bow too

which i paid a lot of gold for

[peak marsh]

All so some poor guy with impulse control issues can spend a month's rent to go up one tier

[tepid wadi]

It was like 1/6 chance for like 10 tiers of upgrades

[timber prism]

i remember someone gave someone a delph weapon for a private stream session

and it turned out they were a trap

the person ended up quitting the game

XD

[peak marsh]

I mean, kinda weird/creepy thing to be doing in the first place so can't say I feel bad for them

[timber prism]

yeah.. i mean.. OF is a thing XD

but it was hilarious for everyone else on the server haha

[tepid wadi]

Oof

[peak marsh]

So to recap, this year in MMOs we have the following to look forward to: BitCraft (grinding simulator), Chrono Odyssey (aka "We have New World at home"), and Blue Protocol Star Resonance (cross-mobile anime game from a Chinese publisher - gentlemen, start your debit cards)

Oh, and maybe possibly Aion 2

[tepid wadi]

Aion 2 could be fun, the first one had some interesting stuff. But it also seems to be going the "full pve" way, from what I read

[peak marsh]

Which sure, I'm primarily a PvE player, but MMOs like that with kinetic combat live and breathe on their PvP populations

[tepid wadi]

Archeage 2 also is somewhere on the horizon but it sounds like they've kinda cut out all the stuff that made the game good.

Open world pvp adds a certain vibe to a game that is interesting.

Even if you mostly dont partake

[peak marsh]

Like Black Desert has only lasted as long as it has because the graphics are nice and people treat it like a fighting game with an extended plot

I mean even as a primarily PvE player, in a game like that with action combat even I sometimes want to test my build against other people and get deep into the combat mechanics agaisnt something I can't just memorize

[tepid wadi]

Yeah. PVP adds a lot more than just what it seems on the surface

[peak marsh]

Like I'm not anti-PvP, I just don't enjoy it when it's forced/required. IMO it should always be an option, at least as MMOs are concerned

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, I've talked before about justice systems and encouraging positive interactions and stuff.

[timber prism]

😭

[tepid wadi]

A big thing archeage did well was "some loot" pvp. You had trade packs that you dropped when you died, but other than that you didnt lose anything.

Wow already? Are people crapping on Chrono that bad?

[timber prism]

doomposting is definitely in for MMOs XD

[tranquil cove]

PVP has issues more because it's always unbalance and unfair. Either new players getting jumped, who can't fight. Or 8 vs 1 gank squads. Or level interaction in PVP is so mismatched its unfair (level 64 player vs level 20 player who is undergeared etc). Combined with a grindy game, where you lose all your stuff and in order to get back into the game in any meaningful way you need to grind gold or some other resource for hours after being killed.. of course nobody will truly enjoy PVP. In games like counterstrike where death gives you a shiny new character as a reward, it's different.

[peak marsh]

Like I mentioned before, opinions are extremely polarized. It's why I found the revelation that the build they used was a year old internal beta build so baffling, you have some people saying it's the most amazballs MMO everyone hype train, and others calling it an unoptimized mess and "Wurst. Game. EVARRR" with little middle ground

[tranquil cove]

I forget what the point of my response was

[peak marsh]

They basically boxed themselves into a corner where you either have hype train cheerleaders or doomers, which is already causing people to call it dead on arrival

[tranquil cove]

I think it was that organic worlds, where people are free to do what they want, this is actually a great system, but the implementation of PVP is never good. But the idea itself is great, the community often helps each other, you can find groups to defend you, you can have reputation systems etc.

[peak marsh]

That's why I say for MMOs it should be an option but not forced. It can be done well, but done poorly or placed as a central core of the game is going to result in experiences like these

[tranquil cove]

I get that, but I kind of think having totally free community interaction is good, but it's just never been implemented in a game in a way where PVP ends up being fun for everyone.

Meaning someone can walk up and attack you, without you toggling it on.

I think that's good, I think something else is the problem.

[timber prism]

Its hard for me to relate bc I love pvp but it worked extremely well in Archeage.. and pvp was forced in that game. I think they balanced it well where it wasn't full loot so say someone stole your tradepack.. you still got a portion of the reward

[tepid wadi]

It really did. If you didnt have a trade pack on, it was rare to get randomly pvpd

[timber prism]

yeah

[vague galleon]

🤣

[timber prism]

unless they wanted your property.. like me XD

[vague galleon]

Id rather play runescape.

[tepid wadi]

Plus you were safe in your own faction's areas. You had to initiate pvp for it to be enabled.

[timber prism]

i terrorized guilds into leaving pvp zones XD

[tranquil cove]

a game needs rewards for not randomly killing people

like something in the interaction with another person that is just as rewarding if not more rewarding.

[timber prism]

but yeah, there were definitely pve zones you could put housing in

[peak marsh]

That's what Zerax was talking about earlier with having some form of justice system

[tepid wadi]

We bulllied people off one of the islands in the ocean and basically owned the whole thing

[tranquil cove]

a justice system is good, but im talking about actual rewards for interacting with people that doesn't involve murdering them

[timber prism]

the only issue was that archeage couldn't solve "might always wins"

because it did

[tranquil cove]

so people are inclined to not just murder everyone they see unless there is good reason

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, designing social systems that give a reason to positively interact is important.

[timber prism]

i think most mmo's attempt at it even if they fail though

[tepid wadi]

Most MMOs just follow past formulas these days it seems

[tranquil cove]

like in a full pvp game i can recognize the value of not pissing off everyone i meet because i'll just get killed all the time.

[timber prism]

its called raiding and matchmaking parties for dungeons right?

[peak marsh]

I mean that's what a justice system does. Your reward is being able to freely access towns and facilities while the alternative is being lawless and pushed to only interact with other murder-hobos. Ultima Online did the system really well to the point you actually had entire guilds of positive karma players who would actively protect people from negative karma ones and the whole thing fed into a robust and well balanced PVP system as a whole

[timber prism]

or voting for housing

off the top of my head, i think Maple Story 2 and Lost Ark had that

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, player housing determining your citizenship in a kingdom could be interesting, especially if you can get banished for lawbreaking etc

[tranquil cove]

i dont get why games do housing in the real map, it often looks ugly asf

[peak marsh]

Then you'd have organic rival factions form, where banished lawless people build their own settlements and fight against lawful towns and kingdoms

[tepid wadi]

Yeah exactly

[timber prism]

archeage did this as well.. once you became a pirate.. you couldn't access all the town functions in eithers faction cities.. and if you ended up dying, you respawned in jail

[tranquil cove]

they should do instanced housing, similar to furcadia, where you have a pocket dimension/dream world, and you gate to it with magic, and in that pocket realm it could even include outside your house, farm land, paths, garden, and your home.

[tepid wadi]

Depends on how you do it. Archeage had house blueprints that you built. So all the real world houses looked like houses and not weird boxes or something.

[tranquil cove]

nah you run out of land

my way is the best way

[peak marsh]

Most current MMOs do instanced housing. FFXIV, ESO, WoW, etc

[timber prism]

housing on the real map meant being active on the real map.. you plant crops etc and people could kill you

in the pvp zones

[tepid wadi]

Both is what I'd choose. Some real world housing with higher property costs. Then instanced housing neighborhoods.

[timber prism]

^

[peak marsh]

Yeah, having your house on the actual map should be a status symbol

[tepid wadi]

So you can accomodate any number of players, but real world housing (and guild housing) is super valuable.

[tranquil cove]

getting killed outside your house is just interruption of your peace/ability to restock so you can get back out there and pvp. it's bad form, and nobody really had fun in UO always being so paranoid about house looters that they could never fully enjoy their home. bad form imo.

[timber prism]

i disagree.. its what made archeage great

cuz people would have to create tradepacks in open world

[tepid wadi]

100%

[tranquil cove]

its great when it doesnt happen to you

[timber prism]

i mean.. it happened to me..and it was great

but i also did it to others

[tepid wadi]

The threat of it happening to you creates a very different feeling than it not being possible.

[tranquil cove]

ive seen people have their houses stolen, and quit UO

they lost their castle, all their loot inside, gone. uninstalled game.

[timber prism]

thats completely different

[tepid wadi]

Well, you couldnt steal houses unless people didnt pay their taxes

So you'd camp houses that were coming available.

[timber prism]

getting killed outside your house =/= having your home stolen

[tranquil cove]

pvp is fun wherever it happens then, if your house isnt under threat no reason pvp there will be different than anywhere else. obviously then i can just run inside my home in archage and not pvp outside my house.

[tepid wadi]

But you didnt get their stuff, it all just went into the bank

[timber prism]

yeah, land grabs were fun

[tranquil cove]

and i assume archage had methods to stop instant dying from being ambushed, like healing.

[peak marsh]

Yeah, the only way in UO to steal someone's house was if they were stupidly walking around with the key, left the door unlocked, or let it decay

[timber prism]

yeah there was healing and it was a very high skill ceiling game

[tranquil cove]

attacked outside my house? when id rather do other stuff just equals me runnning into my house and logging off then.

[timber prism]

like my friends and I could 3 v 8+

just because we knew how to play

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, also people didnt usually gank unless you were running a trade pack, so you mostly were watching for it when it was a threat.

[tranquil cove]

i would only only want to PVP away from where i live tbh

[timber prism]

yeah.. i just ganked neighbors bc i wanted their land

so i proactively just tried to kill them so they couldnt do basic things like make crops to turn into tradepacks

[tepid wadi]

Housing was mostly in "safe" areas unless you built on the enemy continent. But you knew what you were signing up for if you did

[timber prism]

but the penalty was going to court and possibly jail

but i was pretty good at winning over the jury

[tranquil cove]

if i was on jury you'd have been in trouble

lol

[timber prism]

i mean.. trouble would just mean jail which i could break out of XD

[peak marsh]

I mean, if you're putting your house on PVP-able land you're basically signing up for it xD

[timber prism]

but then i know who you are

[tranquil cove]

they should have added perm death executions for players who break out of jail too much.

[timber prism]

and i would camp you all day

[tepid wadi]

Nah then players would always vote permadeath.

[timber prism]

yeah, people would just perma death everyone bc you could

and grief players that way.. thats a quick way to kill a game population

[tranquil cove]

its for repeat jailbreaks, you cant until they rack up the jailbreaks, but then you need gameplay for serving sentence. or community service.

[timber prism]

i mean you did have gameplay for it.. you could play soccer in the jail XD

[tepid wadi]

I could see it, but I'd err towards permanent outlaw status or something.

[peak marsh]

But also if you have PVP in your game you can't punish players that steeply for interacting with it. Removing an MMO players progression is effectively the worst thing you can do outside of banning them outright

[timber prism]

yeah.. i think archage handled it well.. outlawing and forcing becoming a pirate

[tepid wadi]

Plus you're going to be having enough ban troubles with gold sellers and stuff.

[timber prism]

and having pirates have good titles to work towards helped in keeping a third faction

[tranquil cove]

it depends, for some people the perm death is part of the fun but you need a good system where there is law enforcement, and they are trying to catch you. so you need an actual capture system.

as part of the pvp

plus you could make the perm death carry over all skills and just force a character rename and some penalty.

and it could have a reputation reset

[timber prism]

i think we have different definititions for the word perma haha

[peak marsh]

I mean it's a niche within a niche. If your population skews towards 35-40% actively participating in PVP, maybe 5-10% of those actually enjoy hardcore

[tranquil cove]

well my idea is that character dies from the world by resetting their reputation and name, not to punish the player

and so you lose fame on the name or people knowing you by that name

plus it gives incentives for murderers who are especially heinous to be heinous because they eventually do enough bad things that if caught the court will execute them. so now they need to make sure they are never captured.

its not just a revolving door jail

[timber prism]

age of wushu did this

[tepid wadi]

Yeah that doesnt seem like a great system to me

[tranquil cove]

why not?

sounds amazing to me

[timber prism]

but the whole perma renaming thing wasn't a thing

[tepid wadi]

Because the only people who will engage with it are trolls and psychopaths, which arent really personalities that I find worth catering to

[timber prism]

if you got jailed, it would allow an instance where your friends could break you out.. but if they didnt win.. or you you didnt attempt it.. you would be publically executed

[tranquil cove]

imagine you pvp, and people can knock you unconscious, and then either kill you, loot you unconscious or capture you.

[peak marsh]

Well again niche within a niche. You're effectively de-incentivizing the vast majority of the player base from wanting to interact with the PVP system because of how step the penalty could be, and the point of having a PVP system in the first place is to have people engaged in it

[timber prism]

but i dont remember any long lasting penalties to it

[timber prism]

age of wushu also did this

there was a whole battleground mode dedicated to it

where you could kidnap players

https://ageofwushu.fandom.com/wiki/Kidnapping

[tranquil cove]

yeah im not saying knocking unconscious is part of pvp. im saying you pvp, but when your health is zero and you lost the fight, it's not that you instantly die. it's that your unconscious. now the guy who won can kill you, or capture you and take you to court.

people could have bounties on other players dead or alive. and set more for being brought in alive. only for the court to kill them anyway.

[timber prism]

you could sell players to npcs

[tranquil cove]

so you liked the system?

or not really?

i think it sounds good

[timber prism]

in a purely pvp game.. it was interesting yea

[tranquil cove]

it still needs a reputation system within it

[tepid wadi]

I dont think it fits with a game that is more friendly to non pvpers. If everyone is expecting pvp all the time, sure, but if there are players that dont want pvp? No way.

[timber prism]

but like Rhiosaad said.. its a niche within a niche

[tranquil cove]

it fits, in a game that has pvp that is not toggleable

[tepid wadi]

Thats where I think Archeage hit a key middle ground.

[tranquil cove]

it would have worked fine archage

[timber prism]

i dont think the system would work in a game that isn't pvpcentric

i dont think so

[tranquil cove]

you just develop incentives for people to not be murderers

[tepid wadi]

No it wouldnt have because the only thing you could loot is trade packs.

[tranquil cove]

only the court can permadeath a character if you wanted

[peak marsh]

The middle ground is essential, because MMOs are a niche in the first place. Hardcore PVPers are a niche within a niche within a niche and games that appeal to them never last because they simply don't get the regular population needed to support it. So you wind up with a PVP game where you can't ever find anyone else to PVP with. Mortal Online is a fine example

[tranquil cove]

based on specific criteria being fulfilled

there is nothing appealing 2 one class here

it's not either/or

not mutually exclusive, you can do niche things, and still have a huge playerbase

in ultima online one way to make money was to shear sheep. very niche. nobody did it, except like some 12 year olds.

[tepid wadi]

Sure it is. I dont want people to be able to kidnap me if they kill me. That sounds horrible. And I even like pvp usually.

[tranquil cove]

it's about framework

that was wushu game, not my idea, implementation in my game can just be only if you have a bounty on you.

[peak marsh]

Actually plenty of people would shear sheep in UO xD There were entire guilds based around farming/crafting/trading

[tranquil cove]

a bounty means you're brought before the court

[peak marsh]

Non combat guilds who would literally provide resources in exchange for money and protection in PVP areas

[tranquil cove]

in archage how did you end up in front of the court? sounds like kidnapping.

or did people go willingly to be on trial?

[timber prism]

so in archeage there were multiple ways to go to court

you could flag yourself against your own faction and doing things against your own faction would accrue criminal points

like if i really wanted your tradepack in a pvp zone and you were in my faction.. i could kill you and steal it

say you died.. it would leave a blood mark which could be identified by another person

also planting crops was only legal if it was within property you owned

but people would make illegal farms and you could get criminal points that way... earn enough points and the next time you died.. you would end up in court when you respawned

the more points accrued.. the longer the sentence.. but you had a trial chat and you could plead innoccence and the jury would vote guilty or not guilty... being voted not guilty would lower your criminal points

reach a certain amount of points and you were banned from the faction and became a pirate

[tranquil cove]

okay so you were respawned into court, im just saying the same system but people can capture you, and you spawn in court.

this way the player feels like they fulfilled a contract to bring you in

no time is wasted because you still respawn to court after losing in pvp to that player who had a bounty on you

you had the bounty because you had enough criminal points and someone had enough money.

usually this results in jail, but with specific criteria met, hundreds of murders, you could become an outlaw, if captured as an outlaw and sent to court, you can be perm killed by the court. resulting in reset of name, and reputation, but not skills.

[timber prism]

so its archeage with extra steps

[tranquil cove]

otherwise if not an outlaw, you just go through normal justice, yeah

[timber prism]

which has already been done?

[tranquil cove]

yeah, it was add on to archeage

still with the unconscious alive mechanic in pvp

[timber prism]

i dont think a majority would like that

to go off what zerax said.. and he likes to pvp

like having them respawn in court is enough

being kidnapped is not fun for most people

bc you are wasting their time

[tranquil cove]

respawn in court assumes every death is an unsconscious basically

i never said anything about being kidnapped

just different down states

[timber prism]

you did

capturing someone and taking them to court is kidnapping

[tranquil cove]

no i mean now

recently

2 minutes ago

[timber prism]

so you just want an existing system from a game in another one

like im not following this conversation

zerax said he didnt want to be kidnapped

and it wouldn't work

[tranquil cove]

i just said no kidnapping

[timber prism]

so now you are just changing it to an existing system that did work?

[tranquil cove]

i literally said respawn to court

how can kidnapping work with respawns

lol

i'm thinking everyone you defeat in pvp you can leave unconscious, and you lose minor rep, if you loot them you lose more rep, if you choose to kill them you lose a lot of rep depending on the engagement rules.

[timber prism]

it seems overly complicated and not needed to me

like why would i care to leave someone unconscious?

just kill them and let them respawn

[tranquil cove]

okay good point

[tepid wadi]

Yeah the looting is the part I have a problem with

[timber prism]

Yeah.. i think Archeage balanced things well by not letting people just randomly loot players all the time bc that would just incentivize 24/7 ganking

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, the trade packs + gilda stars were such a great system for so many reasons.

[peak marsh]

....meh -reinstalls New World-

[round beacon]

https://tenor.com/view/you-poor-thing-sarcasm-spongebob-spongebob-squarepants-sarcastic-gif-15938780799417858797

[peak marsh]

Yep. Chrono Odyssey reignited the itch for an MMO and now I'm spiraling xD

[vague galleon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8o0du0cWEQo

[tepid wadi]

I feel like this happens to me every time a new MMO comes out. I see all the things that could have been

[peak marsh]

After a few hours, can confirm that Chrono Odyssey is in fact New World at home

Just had to get the flavor of it again

[peak marsh]

This has been the issue. Like its great Steam OS is giving some competition to Windows, but until devs embrace Linux the user base is just too entrenched in Windows because it runs everything