#other-games

1 messages · Page 41 of 1

timber prism
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And it was highly focused in zerg gameplay

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Which is why people used culling in their strats

tepid wadi
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Yeah it definitely wasn't perfect

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I feel like there were a couple patches where it was really well balanced, but my memory of it may not be perfect

timber prism
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It was definitely fun

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But extremely zergy which some roaming sprinkled in

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At least this is how it was on the highly competitive servers

tepid wadi
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Yeah, maybe whatever server I was on wasn't so competitive

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The idea was solid though, I think it suffered from some of the core problems that GW2 suffered from just in general

timber prism
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I was in a guild that led multiple servers to T1 and it was basically all it was. Zone control with zergs on all hours of the day

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Yeah. It was solid. I think ESO had an even better idea for their large scale pvp and it was zoned better

tepid wadi
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I'd love to see that sort of concept brought into an open world game, like if you bought a house/guild hall in a city, you were declaring allegiance to that kingdom and there were areas of control where the laws set by the kingdom were enforced (by game mechanics) and breaking them had a justice system penalty, etc etc

peak marsh
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Yeah, for it's shortcomings in general combat ESO did Cyrodil pretty well

tranquil cove
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that would be stressful for me, at any time your castle can be attacked and you need people from multiple time zones, or no life, or to stay online all day.

timber prism
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Large scale just always ends up with some sort of meta zerg strat

tepid wadi
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I remember ESO on release, all my group made stealth archers and we'd all hide on a hill and just snipe people as the zergs ran past

peak marsh
tranquil cove
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used to have 1 guy named i have no legs who camped my house for 72 hours in ultima online so he could kill me and take the key when i try and go inside.

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i think he really did have no legs

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he was online all the time

peak marsh
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I gave up on having a house in UO until I hit private shards

tranquil cove
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there was usually no real-estate free

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it was a big problem

peak marsh
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That exactly. There was nowhere to put one unless it had big signs around it saying "Place house here, we won't gank you for the key we promise"

tepid wadi
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That was a big problem in Archeage as well

timber prism
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Yes

tranquil cove
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light no fire wants to procedrually generate the world, in zones? that load seamlessley? so it will feel open world, and therefore you will have a place for a home always? but i worry with proc gen that everything just feels generic, and for example with the game idea i have, i want a magical feeling, but the under taking of the game is so big, how do you make an open world, that is organic and dynamic and changing? so that it is always fresh to explore? without relying too much on proc gen and losing the unique/magic feeling. etc.

timber prism
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There were ways around it in archeage tho

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My guild bullied another guild to the point they left the zone and we took over all their real estate as well

peak marsh
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TBH, I'm not sure Light no Fire is going to work the way they want it to work. Time will tell but I'm pressing X to doubt now

tepid wadi
tranquil cove
timber prism
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No. F them

tranquil cove
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i dont do mean things in PVP games

peak marsh
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Said every MMO PVPer ever

timber prism
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There are always more people to bully

tranquil cove
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my time on UO was spent making a pirates guild, and we fought the Player killers called KWS "killing with style"

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so we defended newbies

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as pirates

peak marsh
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Being a top PVP MMO guild is basically a big game a whack-a-mole, you let them pop up just enough to knock them back down xD

tranquil cove
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i basically go into anti-PK guilds if i am in PVP games

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and i dont full loot people usually

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the idea of taking someones house makes me have nightmares at night. i wouldn't be able to do it.

timber prism
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The beauty of archeage was that you could flag on your own faction

peak marsh
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It's really kind of a shame that Archage went so deeply, deeply wrong

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It had a lot of good going for it

timber prism
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It is.

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1.0 was extremely fun

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I miss my fishing boat chumdumpster

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I loved that archeage allowed you to make custom sails

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It is amazing how much trust devs gave people before things really hit the fan in terms of the internet

peak marsh
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I can only imagine how many goatse banners were sailing around

timber prism
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My sail was AMAZING

peak marsh
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I assume your theme song was by Queen

round beacon
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NEVER... trust the internet... under no circumstances xD

peak marsh
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Nobody? "Fat bottomed girls you make the rockin' world go 'round"?

tranquil cove
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if they remade archage would you play it?

peak marsh
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I mean, if they started over with the framework they had before they let ridiculous MTX get involved, sure

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The game had real promise before they started making "business decisions"

tranquil cove
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i always heard starwars galaxies was good

round beacon
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just give me wildstar back. let the old team get back together and let them cook. done deal, wont see me again for ten years^^

tranquil cove
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i never played archeage or galaxies unfortunately

timber prism
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Wildstar was fun but those devs killed it

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It was definitely too hardcore for people

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People couldn't even get into the endgame raids bc they were so bad

round beacon
timber prism
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I mean they even tried F2P

round beacon
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and it actualy worked^^

timber prism
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The pvp was actually entertaining

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They still couldn't balance pvp after F2P

round beacon
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pvp was awesome, the story as damn nice, the whole gameplay was fun as hell, the world beautyfull, the soundtrack.. oh my god that soundtrack

timber prism
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So many invincible builds

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2v2 arena was fun tho but balance overall pvp wise was a mess

round beacon
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well because the pvp wasnt focus for them at that time, they had an entire new raid infront of them, aswell as backbalancing of all the classes to make it more approachable for the lesser skilled folks and whatnot. but sadly gameforge and that other dont even wanna speak the name because HATE to my core, pulled the plug, even though the player numbers where actualy rising <.<

peak marsh
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I just want pre E-sport Firefall back -.-

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LIke, before they bought the bus

timber prism
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I did like Wildstar a lot

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Especially the art style

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Housing was really fun

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I'm actually enjoying Soulframe

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Even tho it's not a MMO

peak marsh
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Is it like Warframe where it's mostly instanced but there are a couple player hubs?

timber prism
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Open world with player hubs

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I don't see randoms running around unless I'm in specific areas

peak marsh
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Ah, so structurally like Warframe

timber prism
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I haven't tried partying yet but I'm super early in progression

peak marsh
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I was kinda hoping they were going to go more MMO. Not that I had an expectation, I kinda figured "Warframe but this time swords and shields instead of cyber-ninjas"

tepid wadi
timber prism
tepid wadi
# tranquil cove i never played archeage or galaxies unfortunately

The big draw of archeage was:
Two continents, each "owned" by a faction, with a huge ocean in the middle that was open PvP. The kicker was, you had "trade packs" that were dropped on death. You could take trade packs between regions on your own continent for gold, but to get a special currency Gilda Stars you could either take them to the other continent or to the pirate island in the ocean.

Bigger ships could carry more trade packs, with trade ships able to carry like... 20 or so. So you'd have guilds that would do trade runs with warships protecting trade ships so they could get huge loads of gilda stars so they could make a lot of high end stuff.

You also had deep sea fishing, which is where you'd catch huge fish that acted just like trade packs, but you could take them back to port and sell them for a bunch of gold.

You'd have pirates who would attack fishing ships or trade ships to try and steal packs. If a ship was destroyed, the packs would sink to the bottom of the ocean where they could be recovered by diving down to get them (it was pretty deep so this took a little while).

Some of the best times in any MMO were sneaking trade packs onto the pirate island, or the enemy continent to be able to build stuff.

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But then the parent company screwed it up by offering rare resources for real currency in the MTX shop, as well as some other stuff that kinda ruined the game's economy.

timber prism
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Some things changed as well with updates where trade packs and fishing didn't net you the best gear anymore so it killed that whole portion of the game

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People really didn't need to be out at sea

tepid wadi
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yeah, if I recall that was also tied to the real money stuff, wasn't it? Like you had to buy crystals that would give you a way better chance to upgrade gear and stuff?

timber prism
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Yeah. Keep things from breaking etc.

tepid wadi
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And there was the zone they added where it was by far the best grinding for gold/gear and whatnot

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If I recall, that was after the people who made the game initially got bought by some larger corporation

timber prism
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I don't remember the specifics but it really just turned into heavy swiping... then doing a fresh server and all the whales would leave to join it for more swiping

tepid wadi
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Yeah and the game just... died

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as far as most people were concerned at least

timber prism
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Yeah

tepid wadi
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One of my personal biggest examples of squandered potential in the MMO space I think I've ever seen

timber prism
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This leads to the bigger problem of mmos that no one has found a solution to

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How to keep a world alive and entertaining that isn't might wins all

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While also allowing new players to join in said world

tepid wadi
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I have what I think is a really good idea for that, but it's totally unique and untested, so 🤷‍♀️

timber prism
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Games are forced to reset the world

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Finite space and all

tepid wadi
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Yeah, one thing I think a MMO absolutely MUST do is blend real world housing with instanced, infinite housing. Make the real space housing finite and expensive, but allow everyone to get a house if they want one.

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Nothing will kill it for new players faster than not having available space for them to do core things.

tranquil cove
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the problem today is everyone is an expert, like one persons ideas aren't good to them, but their own ideas or criticism is coming from their own ego or maybe even narcissism etc. because the internet age has created people "who are amazing at everything". so it's pretty hard to take seriously anyone's claims about me when they basically behave the same way i do a lot of the time. people are just angry when you're confident i guess. 😅

tepid wadi
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But, I think GW2 actually had a really good idea for this too, it just didn't work for them because of the way that they set up the game and I don't think the tech was quite there: The idea of a "living world" where things change meaningfully while playing, and are partially (but not entirely) player driven.

Imagine a world where there are nations, each of them headed by a leader or group of leaders that are GM NPCs. Played by actors, but they are established figured in the world. These figures drive the politics of the world, warring, defending, changing things. They interact with players in real ways, hiring guilds to take on roles like the courts, leading building project initiatives, stuff like that. Guilds can also own "frontier" areas with no leader, but can pledge to a leader when they're on the border of a country.

For example, if two nations go to war, the rules for the world change. Players who have houses in the enemy country become PvP flagged automatically in this country, and you're flagged when entering their country. Trade shifts based on this to other countries, obviously you can't take merchant caravans into enemy territory, etc. But territory can be traded or stolen by players capturing capture points and holding them to establish forts and FOBs, things like that. Sieges can happen, but the Lord needs to give their okay for this to happen. Perhaps one lord will hire a player guild to go assassinate a rival lord (These GMPCs aren't invulnerable, just powerful), and the rival lord will hire a guild as bodyguards...

You can keep the world interesting if you keep the world feeling ALIVE, where it's different every time you log in and there are things happening that change the world. These political changes might also come with altering zones that exist within the world, like changing monster spawns, closing/opening dungeons, etc.

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I don't think any MMO has really tried to make the living world a core aspect of their game to a point where they do things like have actual people playing as important figures within the game. That sort of thing could really add a flavor to a game that could keep it alive. Like imagine if you're crafting weapons in the city blacksmith and the freaking king walks in with a bunch of guards and is like "Hello citizens, how are you finding the smithing amenities?" and you have a conversation about how the smithing area being so far from the alchemists is a problem because you find that you have to often run back and froth between the two.

tranquil cove
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but not pvp ones

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sort of like world building/economy ones

tepid wadi
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Also I don't think the tech was there. A big factor that could make it a success is that games can RAPIDLY change now. It's easier to set things up in modular ways where you can change spawners, alter terrain, add buildings, etc etc very quickly. And if the team is invested in making sure these things are possible, it can add a huge immersion factor to the actual play of the game.

tranquil cove
# tepid wadi I don't think any MMO has really tried to make the living world a core aspect of...

https://store.steampowered.com/app/382310/Eco/

Steam
Eco

Enter the world of Eco, a fully simulated ecosystem bustling with thousands of growing plants and animals living their lives. Build, harvest, and take resources from an environment where your every action affects the world around you. An imminent meteor strike threatens global destruction. Can you save the world without destroying it in the pro…

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▶ Play video
tepid wadi
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Eco isn't an MMO, it's a survival game

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But they did do some cool stuff with the environment, pollution, etc

tranquil cove
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there was a review about eco that was hilarious

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like something about it's like real life and cancer, because the big corporation crushed their farm and the politicians dont care.

tepid wadi
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Lol my buddies and I played it long ago. It was pretty early on in their dev cycle but you could see the potential

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it seemed like a learning tool to teach people about environmental impacts

peak marsh
tepid wadi
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Honestly, AI could be a great tool, if we were using it for the right things. But so many teams are trying to shove it in anywhere it CAN fit instead of where it SHOULD fit.

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Most uses I've seen have me asking "why not just use a program to consoldate this data? It would be cheaper and way easier and more reliable?"

peak marsh
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Like in terms of a living breathing world, if AI was integrated well along with actual writers and coders and used as a tool to make minute changes in real time while the writers and coders worked on the broad strokes, it could actually be groundbreaking

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Like imagine an MMO where the world still changes on a broad scale in terms of expansions and events, but also in small ways it remembers you, like when you save the innkeeper from wolves, he remembers you and gives you a small discount

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Like, little immersive things like that

timber prism
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You can't really have politics if its always military might and the problem occurs in being able to have economy no dictated by it

peak marsh
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My example was bad because you can do that without AI but what I mean is, the game remembers you and your interactions and responds to you accordingly in small ways, while in the broader sense writers and coders are still creating the larger narrative xD

timber prism
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I think for a mmo to be truly groundbreaking a system would need to be setup where someone who doesn't ever fight ( crafting/econ ) guild could have power and then politics could actually take place

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Everything so far has been player kill this

tepid wadi
# timber prism I think the issue with this is that it is still might wins due to being able to ...

Well, it's not a perfectly fleshed out solution. I'm sure there are specifics that need to be worked out. But one idea is that players would be divided based on where they live and things would be happening in multiple areas at once, so if you zerg one area, you're not going to be able to zerg over to other areas immediately. Kinda like GW2, but without teleporting around and a much larger area, etc

peak marsh
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If anything I feel like crafters/econ players should have more power than the sword wielding muscle heads. Money makes the world turn, the merchants should have an easier path to power than the knights xD

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Harder path to growth mind you, but easier path to power

tepid wadi
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Yeah, I think that's possible if you design things in the right way

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If traders want to trade, then it's going to be a big thing when a war happens

peak marsh
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Like, if you could create a system where connections and resources are a path to power all their own and a force in their own right

timber prism
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Someone in another discord mentioned this when having this discussion

tepid wadi
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That would be part of the interesting part of the politics that could happen leading UP TO a war, which would be much more interesting if players are involved in decisions, proclamations, advisory positions, etc.

atomic pike
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The Langraad in Dune Awakening will be interesting to see

tepid wadi
timber prism
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Having a neutral faction that was like the trade city while having materials available in one faction or another but not both

atomic pike
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I played the beta, but it wasn't active in the beta

timber prism
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Both factions require said materials but each faction can only ever get one of the materials ever

atomic pike
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But it gives the PvE people say in overall politics from what it sounds like

peak marsh
tepid wadi
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But overall, I think that sort of political/ever evolving world would contribute a lot to making it an interesting world to exist in, which will keep players invested.

atomic pike
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The storm in Dune that happens every week will change up the map, so that is cool too. But I think it will have the biggest impact in the pvp end game area

tepid wadi
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Yeah, that should be good for sure

atomic pike
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From the 9ish hours I played, the combat wasnt great

timber prism
atomic pike
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It wasn't awful though either

peak marsh
timber prism
timber prism
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Who in their right mind would trade for something they could just take from someone

peak marsh
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In that case it's more of an option. Not everyone wants to fight for resources, but ultimately everyone can reach the same end result. What I more mean in terms of power is the broader political landscape like Zerax was saying. If factions could control land masses, it wouldn't be the meathead knights in charge wanting to fight all the time, it would be the merchants who could secure economic stability and on some level, security not through brute force but through diplomatic push and pull

atomic pike
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The best game for community I have ever been a part of was lvl cap 75 FFXI

timber prism
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Then next thing would be solving how to get new players involved into a never ending world where they don't feel insignificant like having to cut trees when existing players have top tier items

atomic pike
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I'll never get the same feeling out of a game again

atomic pike
timber prism
peak marsh
peak marsh
timber prism
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But if everyone is already stronger why wouldn't they control everything?

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What diplomacy would be needed if you could just take it from them?

peak marsh
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That's the point. If you're good with managing every aspect, you wouldn't be a force that could be taken so lightly

timber prism
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Atlas as an example. You could just borg assimilate everyone and control every island

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Which has happened

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And then newer smaller guilds just kept getting eaten up or assimilate

peak marsh
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I mean, look at a game like Eve Online and how it's endured over the course. The mega corporations have tried and tried and tried to zerg each other and it never works because the people behind it, the merchants, manage every aspect from how much military might they have to how many resources they have control of. I'm not dropping some new idea xD

tepid wadi
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You HAVE to have other objectives and things to do to sustain a game of that size. If Atlas had had PvE factions that you could do stuff for, it would've been so much better of a game

timber prism
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Eve has done a pretty good job at that thats true

peak marsh
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I mean, granted Eve is basically an MMO for spreadsheet enthusiasts but still xD

timber prism
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I guess Eve is like the outlier XD

timber prism
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FF14 is the only pve mmo I played but that is pretty much a single player game outside of raids

peak marsh
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Having played many, many many PVE MMOs, I can say FFXIV is one of them xD

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Good in some respects, less good in others, great in others still

timber prism
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I love FF14

peak marsh
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What I'm waiting for is a dev to really start cherry picking the genre, taking the best bits out of every game and combining them into one really great game

timber prism
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I personally lost my ability to enjoy mmos XD

peak marsh
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We all get there at some point, because they're all so same-y xD

timber prism
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I have moved on to just finding a good coop experience haha

peak marsh
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The genre hasen't really innovated in 20 years xD

timber prism
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Archeage was the last good one for me

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Lost Ark was the last one I played for a year or longer

peak marsh
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MMO innovation is like, "here's the same experience, but this time shinier"

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Archage really did have something going, until it didn't xD

timber prism
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Yes. Which is why we need to have this problem figured out so a mmo feels new!

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I really enjoyed guild politics in archeage even if it was just "we will let you do X if you pay us or we will just kill you."

peak marsh
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Is what I'm saying. But rather than something completely new which honestly doesn't exist, I'd rather see something that takes the best parts of all the great MMOs and wraps it up in a wam fluffy tortilla to make an MMO burrito xD

timber prism
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I'm okay with never playing a mmo again XD

peak marsh
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Like, take the combat of Archage, combine it with the storytelling of ESO, plus the PVE of FFXIV, plus the evolving world of GW2, plus the economics and politics of Eve, so on and so on

timber prism
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^ this sounds fun on paper but no one would ever pull it off

peak marsh
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Which is why I'm still waiting xD

timber prism
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Instead. You will get Ashes of Creation

peak marsh
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Like, the MMO genre is in deperate need of some iteration, like all good art forms. Quit trying to make each one it's own unique new thing and just be willing to borrow some ideas >.<

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xD

peak marsh
timber prism
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I haven't enjoyed playing at all but maybe alpha 3 in August will be the time i do ( I won't )

peak marsh
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I mean, they're basing the entire thing around the idea of being a "hardcore mmo for hardcore mmo players". Cool, all seven of them will show up for launch

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The rest of us will too but drop it after the first two weeks xD

timber prism
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Its basically western Archeage

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But caravans aren't fun

peak marsh
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The thing is they have a lot of cool ideas in a vacuum, but like, in order for your MMO to be an MMO you need that first M. The Majority, the Masses, won't hang around for a game where 10% of the players hold 90% of the power. And while that might sound counter to my Eve comparison this is different because literally every zone is intended to be a contested PVP zone

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Like literally every town you run into is going to be run by either some sweaty 17 year old or some sweaty 29 year old with disposable income

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That's not going to bring in your casuals and your casuals actually make up a majority of your player count because if you're keeping score at home, MMOs aren't doing such hot numbers these days

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The market is far from ripe for a hardcore player economy focused MMORPG

timber prism
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I don't think mmos in general are for the young demographic anymore

peak marsh
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So from there all I can say is that combat and player synergy better be nothing short of revolutionary

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I mean they could be. Like I said just there, if the player synergy and combat is on point it could be

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Thing is MMOs don't work like they used to. Back in the day you downloaded the game and made friends as you play. These days groups and couples and guilds from Discord all join together and I feel like that's a major aspect MMOs are ignoring

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They're still treating it like it's 2002 and you're just logging in by yourself

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What's the early game in every mmo? Slog along by yourself until you hit level 60 or w/e and can join groups

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Maybe you join with a friend or s/o and you group up for early content, but it's kind of disjointed and doesn't really feel like a connected experience until endgame

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Every MMO does that and it's not where we're at with games in 2025

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Like, especially post-pandemic, we want and crave that shared experience, we want to go through the struggle together, we want to party up early and often and most MMOs still aren't offering that

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If we want to grind and level and grow solo, why aren't we playing a single player game that frankly just does that experience better?

timber prism
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Gotta drive. Will reply when back xd

tepid wadi
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There's also another big difference nowadays compared to old MMOs: Streamer culture. That just didn't used to exist, but now it's super prevalent.

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I think it's really something where the core design of an MMO just needs to change. They shouldn't be a world that you have one single objective in (grinding the highest gear level or whatever). They should be a world that is fun to exist in where you can pursue any number of projects or activities that are all enjoyable.

Want to PvP? It's there
Want to do PvE dungeons? Excellent.
Want to engage with the world and enjoy maybe some PvE and or PvP? Cool, there are systems for that.
Want to chill and farm and hang out with people? There are fun ways to do this
Want to craft or work on a long term housing project? There are pieces for this.

Any game that does LESS than all of these things is going to end up failing as an MMO. There need to be multiple reward structures to keep people engaged and it can't ALL just be around power progression. There need to be activities that have literally zero effect on your player power, but appeal to different sorts of players.

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For example, in Archeage there was a system where you could compose your own music. As you improved your skill, you could do longer, more complex pieces of music and you could play them by yourself or with others. I spent a TON of time composing music with the program and setting up things like the Ocarina of Time theme, the Temple of Time song, and a bunch of other cool songs.

MMOs NEED these sorts of mechanics to give players something to do in the time between other activities they're doing. Some players will play more than their friends and don't want to just grind, they need other fun activities to do to keep them engaged that aren't just grinding mobs or using a crappy crafting system.

peak marsh
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That's the thing. MMOs need to evolve beyond rote mechanics and rediscover the thing that made them great in the first place, which was creating a space and a world that you legitimately wanted to exist in and belong to, instead of just being a backdrop to be stronger in

tepid wadi
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Exactly

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And a modern MMO, to fulfill the uniqueness of the genre, needs to be designed in a way that has intentional player interaction as a core concept. They need to consider how any mechanic encourages (but doesn't require) players to engage with each other in a positive or negative way. You can build your crafting so players have a reason to be social WHILE they craft. You can set up your farming to encourage players to work togther to farm the right crops at the right times of year. You can build your trade system so that there's reasons to do short and long range trade runs, in both small and large groups.

Having a massive number of players is the REASON why MMOs are a unique genre, and to capitalize on that concept, you have to make it so that players aren't just playing "together alone". When you see another player, you need to think to yourself "oh hey, what are they up to" not "oh shit someone coming to steal my mobs or gank me"

peak marsh
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That too, I feel like too often the shortcut for MMOs to create player interaction is to make us adversarial when ultimately most of us don't want to be, at least not initially

tepid wadi
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Yeah, I may think about this stuff a lot 😝

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Also, positive interactions give value to negative interactions. If someone is a player killer or an outlaw or something, that can matter. If the ONLY response to another player existing is "I have to kill them or run away" then it's a very binary situation and that's not interesting.

I think that's one big risk for the Ashes of Creation caravan system. There's no real reason to cooperate instead of be adversaries, and if there isn't a big enough penalty for being an adversary then that's all people are going to do. Then no one will want to run caravans and the entire point of the system will be lost.

timber prism
peak marsh
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I mean think about it, you're trying to make us occupy this world but now you want us to make enemies early?

tepid wadi
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Yeah, my buddies and I tried Pantheon. I don't have any nostalgia for Everquest, so I don't love it. The complete forcing for partying isn't the worst, but some of the core systems feel... outdated.

timber prism
frank sonnet
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but the question is their even a big enough interest for a game like that in the modern gaming scene?

timber prism
#

there was also fun stuff like learning the opposing factions language

tepid wadi
#

I actually built a trade center on our island and had little concerts.

timber prism
#

that was fun stuff to do that wasn't power oriented

peak marsh
#

As I understand it Pantheon needs more time in the oven

tepid wadi
timber prism
#

i meme'd using music and would push people onto boats that were afk and play a song while my friend would row them to some random island and drop them off

tepid wadi
#

There was literally no point to having that trade center there, you couldn't use it for its intended purpose. But I wanted to build one because it was a huge project 😝

timber prism
tepid wadi
#

You just have to do it right, and the big problem that Toast mentioned earlier is, it's kyrptonite for investors becuse they're so expensive.

peak marsh
timber prism
#

Nice! update me on it later!

peak marsh
#

Like, are you doing a thing or are you doing a nostalgia cash grab?

timber prism
#

My friend seems to enjoy it enough. He said that it definitely promotes early party play

#

and has that old game nostalgia about finding parts to lvl up

#

i dont think there is much stuff to do in it???

peak marsh
#

I mean I've heard good things. That said, I need to hear more

tepid wadi
#

"promotes" doing a lot of heavy lifting. "Requires" is more accurate 😝

timber prism
#

i dunno.. it just seems like he is grinding the same way FF14 1.0 was lmao

#

oh.. requires is even better XD

peak marsh
#

But also, I need to hear more than "it's EQ with a new coat of paint"

#

Like, I played EQ 30 years ago, why is this new? xD

tepid wadi
#

Then it definitely need some more time in the oven, because that's exactly what it is.

#

Like, it's its own world and stuff, but the mechanics are straight up EQ + paint

#

My buddies who love EQ and Project 1999 (EQ servers you can play currently) love it.

peak marsh
#

I mean sure, if you love EQ, you'll love EQ + paint xD

#

EQ was awesome in 1999, why should I do it again? xD

tepid wadi
#

Beats me, I don't have any nostalgia for it, heh

#

They've also done the classic WoW grind from 0 to raiding like... 5 times

peak marsh
#

But that's kind of telling of where the genre is at. Outside of AoC which is years from release, our most exciting prospects are WoW from 15 years ago or a rehash of EQ from 25+ years ago xD

tepid wadi
#

Yeah

#

There are a couple other ones coming out I think, but it's mostly stuff from companies known for terrible MTX selling power practices and stuff.

#

And shady asset flip games

peak marsh
#

Don't forget the many, many anime cross platform with mobile games

tepid wadi
#

Well, those aren't even usually MMOs, just shared world gacha games

peak marsh
#

It's what we have as MMO gamers xD

#

Like, there is nothing else xD

tepid wadi
#

Yeah 😦

peak marsh
#

Like what, Odin: Valhalla Rising the crappy auto battler MMO?

#

Throne and Liberty, another crappy auto battler?

tepid wadi
#

Throne and Liberty autobattler mobile integrated (not) anime MMO

peak marsh
#

But also kinda anime because thats how they do storytelling xD

tepid wadi
#

Yeah

peak marsh
#

"We struggle and stuffer but we rise again through the power of FRIENDSHIP"

#

-Guitar solo-

timber prism
#

Survival games have replaced them at least for the first time you explore an area xd

peak marsh
#

Honestly my hope is that MMORPGs will evolve. Into something I recognize, something I dont. Really don't care, just evolve for **cks sake xD

vague galleon
#

theres always runescape.

peak marsh
#

Right, because I haven't spent the past 2 hours talking about not wanting to play backwards xD

timber prism
#

Haha

timber prism
peak marsh
timber prism
#

lmao

#

it better be perma death...

frank sonnet
#

damn you resurrect in town option

tepid wadi
#

Honestly, I hope Ashes of Creation is super successful for it no other reason than it might spark a new wave of MMOs if so.

round beacon
#

oh great, my week got even busier, now Planet Crafter also releases a free update on the 19th >.< fell_hype

autumn crystal
round beacon
autumn crystal
tranquil cove
round beacon
rustic arrow
sly sierra
#

So, outside of Enshrouded, I have been completely captivated by Blue Prince

peak marsh
#

I've heard it's really good. @timber prism in here played it, and one of the CMs for Enshrouded, CUB has it too

timber prism
#

Def recommend if you like puzzle games

barren quail
#

Update failed 😦

odd kettle
#

Yo who in here play clash of clans ? I just started a clan and I’m lookin for some good cool people to join up 🤘 dm me if your interested

sly sierra
#

Blue Prince wears its Myst inspiration on its sleeve, but I think the thing that keeps the puzzles and mysteries from pissing you off, is that there's an underlying game that you can focus on and explore until you hit that "OH HOLY CRAP" moment and figure out what you're supposed to do. I haven't once beaten my head against a wall on a puzzle. But that doesn't mean they're easy. You just don't feel the frustration of them.

I got the credits... and I realized that was my "Welcome to the game" moment.

tepid wadi
#

Nice, that kinda addresses my one big problem with the Myst games. If you don't know what to do, you're just kind of... stuck

peak marsh
#

Yeah. Myst was cool and atmospheric for its time but some of those puzzles were downright obtuse and resulted in spending hours looking at the same screens repeatedly while you tried to figure out what the game wanted from you

vague galleon
#

i remember hearing about it as a kid and wanting to play it then bought it like 15 years ago and have still never played it.

peak marsh
#

It was groundbreaking for its time but frankly it's very dated in its original form. I forget the name but some years back someone did a remake that touched up the visuals and gave it free movement instead of each screen being a still image

#

Though that said honestly there are better, more modern experiences

tranquil cove
#

It's still as eerie and interesting, and the graphics don't even matter since you're not even really walking around free roam. you click to travel to different areas pretty sure... and this type of travel method is rather ageless. If you were walking freely, I feel like you'd notice the world more as being graphically outdated, because you could travel in the world, see it from every angle. With a click to travel, you're just experiencing a point of view that was specifically curated.

#

oh weird you said they gave it a free roam

#

yeah i actually prefer the old travel

#

hard puzzles, but amazing when you got it

#

a lot of the puzzles were hard because they were connected to another puzzle across the map, and you needed to remember things you saw elsewhere.

timber prism
peak marsh
#

I've played through it several times. It's a great game don't get me wrong, but why I mention the free walk mod in particular is it can get really, really, really tedious to go screen by screen on some of those areas where you're doing a lot of back-and-forth looking for clues

#

Good idea to update your password

#

And/or get the app and set up 2 factor authentication

timber prism
#

Always set up 2 factor. Always XD

peak marsh
#

Tbf the article goes on to say it's all alleged and the security company the hacker claims to have gotten the details from has denied the breach, and also Valve denied that they even use that security company. That said, neither is a bad idea if you haven't changed PWs in a while or if you don't have SteamGuard

misty arch
tepid wadi
frank sonnet
#

and it has a demo on steam cool im going to try it out

tranquil cove
#

if you noticed that you probably werent enjoying the game imo

#

reminds me of people who leave negative reviews about a game having too much walking.

#

it's like.. yeah walking is a fact of life, you need it to get from point A to point B...

#

they just expect to teleport everywhere now-a-days

peak marsh
#

I mean, I did say I finished it multiple times xD it wasn't bad enough to kill the game for me but it was very noticeable

#

Like, overall I'd give the game a positive review and note that as a con. A game doesn't need to be perfect to be good, and a good game can still have flaws

#

Especially one from almost 3 decades ago

#

And especially so with some of the roaming and backtracking in Myst, if you don't already know the puzzles moving around gets to feeling like a slog. Even when you do xD

timber prism
tranquil cove
#

for anyone?

#

not a con for me, then or now imo

#

i can play most old games and probably enjoy them better than modern games in fact.

#

like even this statement

"And especially so with some of the roaming and backtracking in Myst, if you don't already know the puzzles moving around gets to feeling like a slog. Even when you do xD"

combined with

"I finished it multiple times"
implies you're damned if you do, and damned if you don't. basically if you played it once, and therefore don't already know the puzzles, moving around feels like a slog. but also, if you finished it multiple times, moving around feels like a slog because you know what to do.

#

i completed MSYT one time, didn't know the puzzles at all, and i remember moving around not bothering me at all. i was fully engaged in the game, movement didn't cross my mind the first time through. and given my personality i'd remember if something pissed me off. like in andor, or the new superman trailer 😆 i mean maybe i could concede the movement is bad if you beat the game 3 times or 5 times. but you're literally saying it's bad even if you're new to the game, first time... sounds like it's not a game you loved as much as me tbh. i touched this game when i was 10 years old the first time, and at a time when there was no other game like it, back when there was sim city 2000 and Age of empires 1.

#

i really think it's something to do with older gamers having more patience for games, and maybe able to appreciate an old game more. like i said most people want quick gratification and got used to that in games now. and they just expect things handed to them, have people complaining about walking in a game that has walking for example, those guys are spoiled imo. and this isn't just for one game i see these "walking" complainers leaving similar reviews in a lot of games. like the forest, complaining there's too much walking etc. 😆

#

i walked all over skyrim for 500 hours

#

rarely used fast travel

tranquil cove
#

only other game older that i played was oregon trail

#

believe me i wasn't sitting there doing MYST puzzles complaining about the "outdated" movement.

#

and i wouldn't do that today

#

the other comparable games, maybe duke nukem 3d and doom. (both 1996). and i never played doom. but i did play duke nukem. and jedi knight dark forces 2. (1997)

#

and conquest of the new world, and lord of the realm 2. (1996)

#

MYST was bad ass and still is.

#

but it's no surprise, i'd rather play rimworld than 90% of the newer games you guys list here, and thats 2D graphics. lol i'm built with different tolerances for old games i think. i got a 3080TI and half the time i spend it on 2d games or isometric/low graphical games.

peak marsh
#

At the time Myst didn't feel as bad because it was new and novel. Given the time that's passed since, it feels very outdated. Never said it was bad or it wasn't enjoyable. The movement just starts to feel annoying after a while when you're going screen by screen

tranquil cove
peak marsh
#

I did. I played it on PC at the time, then I played it on the Sega Saturn, then I played it again on PC years later

tranquil cove
peak marsh
#

I played Sim City but I never got heavily into it. AoE 1 and 2 for sure, absolutely Duke 3d and Doom

#

I mean, my first game console was a Colecovision before I got an NES as a kid xD

tranquil cove
#

i think oregon trail is the oldest game i played, it says release is 1971

#

but i wasnt born when it released

peak marsh
#

Oh there were many, many versions of Oregon Trail xD

#

I mostly remember it on the lime green Apple II

tranquil cove
#

i played this

#

except im pretty sure it was on the bigger floppy

#

the 5 inch floppy

#

i mean i also played it on arcade

peak marsh
#

I remember that one and that Sega Holographic Time Traveller machine. They were both quarter munchers xD

tranquil cove
#

this game wasnt easy, guy makes it look easy lol

#

and 2 player game i liked

tepid wadi
peak marsh
#

I remember liking the show as a kid but it was so low quality xD

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, it also got canceled half way through, so they just like... made up a few episodes to end it and then that was it, never finished the story

#

I remember always loving the world/concept

peak marsh
#

Same, the characters too

tepid wadi
#

Very 90s, I always loved the episode where Ren gets into the ghost ship and starts turning into a ghost and the only part of him that can interact with them is his ghost arm. IDK why that stuck in my brain so much

timber prism
# tranquil cove for anyone?

Yes. For anyone I would recommend the game to... I would describe the movement as a con. I am also an older gamer. I started gaming in 1986 with Atari and NES

#

I also played Oregon Trail in school on an old apple... maybe the IIe? I can't remember

#

also Number Munchers

#

I think the first PC game i ever played at my house was either Wing Commander or Space Quest

peak marsh
#

Wing Commander was a good time

peak marsh
timber prism
#

And games like the Lucas Arts games

#

The Dig was so good

#

Secret of Monkey Island

peak marsh
#

Yeah, I got into all the old Sierra stuff. Basically everything Roberta Williams did xD

timber prism
#

lmao

#

freaking Kojima

peak marsh
#

I've been playing that game my whole life already

#

I mean, it's an interesting idea in a vacuum, like in terms of immersion, but I'm not sure you could do it in a way that it wouldn't be A) Meaningless, because a lot of people will just binge play, or B) Player hostile, because you don't want to feel "obligated" to play a game especially if not playing means losing skills

timber prism
#

yeah, it sounds awful to me

#

for the second reason mostly

#

it already feels awful having battle passes in games

#

i dont want something that actually makes me lose skills XD

#

oh.. it took you 25 hours to obtain that.. too bad you took a two month break and now you gotta play another 25 hours to get it back XD

#

please jjust make my horror game Kojima XD

tepid wadi
#

Don't worry, you can pay $1/hr to keep your progress!

#

#JustEAthings

#

Though, a MUD I played many years ago had kind of a cool system that I'd love to see in a game, where you built up "learning" progress as you did things. Eventually, you'd become "mind locked" where you couldn't learn any more and had to let your learning drain into actual experience. It encouraged you to do different tasks so your XP could tick up while you were doing the other thing.

It kind of mimicked the human behavior where you kinda get stuck on something, but when you put it down and come back later you can figure it out. I could see some version of that being integrated into a modern game being interesting. It feels like it could be paired with the "survival game busy box" to help players do new things.

vague galleon
#

terrible idea kojima, as usual.

peak marsh
#

He's been trying to find that next "revolutionary" idea for years

tepid wadi
#

I feel like we've discussed more "revolutionary" ideas than that.

vague galleon
#

supposedly Fable 2 had a feature where you still made money when not playing from your rental properties and such but it never worked for me.

tepid wadi
#

Wasn't that a thing in Fable 3? I remember for one of the versions where people set their Xbox date to like 2 years in the future and made a bajillion gold

frank sonnet
#

how about a game with realistic seasons

peak marsh
#

Outward kind of had that. You had passing seasons and for example, in summer you would get thirsty more often and at a point lose stamina faster, and in winter you occasionally had to stop and build a fire to warm up or eat foods with warming properties

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, some games have it but it's usually pretty light. I'd love to see it in a survival game where creatures and enemies act differently during different seasons.

peak marsh
#

Or certain plants are only harvestable in certain seasons?

tepid wadi
#

Yeah

#

Ashes of Creation is also looking to do seasons in an interesting way. They showed a video of their UE5 season tech a while back and it looked pretty impressive.

#

Things like snow blocking a pass, water levels lowering and revealing things, etc etc

frank sonnet
#

realistic weather would be nice too

peak marsh
#

Frankly my dream survival would be a game like The Forest in terms of the setting, the building, and some of the survival mechanics, but with dynamic weather (besides rain) and maybe not the whole "constantly getting swarmed by cannibals" thing xD

tepid wadi
#

I don't love the horror setting from The Forest

peak marsh
#

The island you're on in the game is based on an actual island off the coast of Canada and it gave a great wilderness vibe, and there was something immensely graifying about struggling and scraping along for fresh water only to finally have a rainstorm open up and start filling your water collectors

#

Like, early game or on peaceful mode it's a great wilderness simulator

#

Or if you know about the handful of little cliff areas you can build on that the cannibals can't get to xD

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, I find that survival games tend to get boring for 2 main reasons:

  1. You've "won" at survival (sustainable food, water, shelter, etc)
  2. There isn't a purpose to the survival. (Just existing in the world isn't very interesting and you've finished your base or whatever)
peak marsh
#

Yeah. The Forest runs into that issue. Like once you have a safe base and plenty of supplies it just becomes maintenance, though the building kept me busy for a long while

tepid wadi
#

Honestly it's something that most survival games run into. Either their linear like Valheim or Enshrouded, or they're "open" like Ark/Conan/The Forest and you tend to get bored after "beating" the mechanics.

#

I like the concept of a roguelike survival game like Icarus had originally intended, but their implementation of it made it so that the roguelike gameplay kind of devolved into doing the exact same thing in every mission.

peak marsh
#

Personally I think survivals are the next evolution of MMOs. If you could take the core of what makes survivals engaging, and couple that with an MMO world and gameplay, done well I think you'd have a winner

tepid wadi
#

Very possibly, yeah.

peak marsh
#

The right blending of the social aspects of both, life sim, character building, and crafting

tepid wadi
#

I think it's a blend of mechanics. Like I don't think you need hard survival mechanics like Green Hell or The Forest, you could easily do a Valheim/Enshrouded style food buff and comfort system as an integration into an MMO

vague galleon
#

I'd totally play outward if I had a friend to co-op it with.....

peak marsh
#

Yeah. Like I find myself thinking about what if Enshrouded could be blended into a full MMO, complete with flame altars but limited to 1 per player

#

But with more depth on the RPG gearing/character building

tepid wadi
#

ehh, I think the Enshrouded engine wouldn't really be able to do it. But also I'm a big NO on terrain alteration in a massively multiplayer game.

#

Impossible to prevent griefing

peak marsh
#

Yeah, in my vision you can only change things within your own altar or an altar you've been granted permissions for

#

Also to prevent griefing you'd have rules like V Rising where you can't place your altar in a certain range of roads/other altars/etc

tepid wadi
#

Kinda reminds me of what Pax Dei had in mind, though again we'll probably never see that reach it's potential

peak marsh
#

Yeah, that's why I emphasize "done well" xD

#

Asmongold's community gave us a great cautionary tale on what precautions need to be taken for an MMO survival xD

timber prism
peak marsh
#

For one, I don't think you should be able to build whatever you want right away. It should be something you have to build up towards, maybe you start out staying in an inn in a city or something

timber prism
peak marsh
#

Otherwise you have people joining and just covering the landscape in giant dirt dongs

tepid wadi
frank sonnet
tepid wadi
#

That's impossible. They'll just delete the entire ground around the grief free zone down to bedrock. Or build a massive wall around the grief free zone so no one can enter/exit

#

The griefing possible with terrain deformation is immense

#

And the effort required to prevent it will just open up new griefing potential.

tepid wadi
tepid wadi
# peak marsh For one, I don't think you should be able to build whatever you want right away....

So your "house" might start out as a room with some storage, then you can upgrade to a home that can have crafting stations and maybe a garden, then you can eventually buy an 'estate' with more, or whatever. Totally agree. And do the same thing with guild halls. Imagine a guild owning a large structure in a city and they set up a top tier blacksmith shop that people can pay to use the master-level facilities or someth ing.

timber prism
#

didnt Helldivers say they were gonna do this?

#

like there was supposedly a guy behind it all

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, that's one of the things that gave me the idea

#

Basically MMO factions with actors/devs who play as the leaders, where they exist in the world as actual characters and stuff.

peak marsh
tepid wadi
#

Could do wonders for creating a "living world" feel. Especially if they aren't invulnerable.

timber prism
#

would be interesting as long as they guy didnt get swayed by any particular person

#

IRLs etc.

peak marsh
timber prism
#

I remember Archeage devs/cm's coming messed with my guild in a fun way

tepid wadi
peak marsh
#

(Short version is they had a big event where Richard Garriot was giving a speech as his Lord British character, forgot to turn on invincibility, someone killed him, so they kept the lore that Lord British was killed xD)

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, see that's awesome

#

Also imagine the leader of one faction hiring a player guild to kill an opposing faction's leader.

timber prism
#

ooooo Precinct came out

tepid wadi
#

And if it gets leaked to other players, they could warn the other leader, etc etc. But it would all have to happen in-game

peak marsh
#

It would be hard to do the last part with Discord being a thing

timber prism
#

maybe.. some people like blabbing in public channels XD

tepid wadi
#

It would be a certain amount of experimentation, for sure.

#

But like if it's a private meeting in game with the leaders of said guild, then it would be up to their guild to keep it a secret

#

And if they don't? That's on them.

timber prism
#

wuold be cool if it actually had some sort of domino effect that affects the in game world for people

#

like loss of the territory or something

peak marsh
#

That would actually play a bit into the skullduggery aspect. Like, you never know when someone might be streaming so you have to be careful what you say to who and where

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, could start a war, etc

#

That's kinda how I imagine it

timber prism
#

reduced resources from trades etc.. that would actually be cool

#

i wonder if any dev would be willing to actually implement that and budget it into their game

tepid wadi
#

The GMPCs are drivers for the politics and trade and stuff in the world. They run their countries/factions/whatever, but they utilize player guilds to make things happen and to run their kingdoms. Like player guilds can be in charge of districts, or justice or whatever

peak marsh
#

Isn't that kind of what AOC is doing with town levels and nodes? Like if your group owns a node and levels it up enough you get like, better resources and trade prices?

tepid wadi
#

Kind of, yeah, but they haven't said how exactly the things work.

peak marsh
#

Yeah, everything I've heard about it has been kind of nebulous. Just basically that it's a thing but nothing specific about how exactly it works

tepid wadi
#

From what I've seen, it seems like there's going to be kind of minimal interaction with the nodes. But who knows for sure

#

I'd love to know more, I feel like there's SO much potential with something like that, if done correctly

timber prism
# peak marsh Isn't that kind of what AOC is doing with town levels and nodes? Like if your gr...

https://youtu.be/l52IbkSargM?si=LTp5w5XH3cAbu6KN

YouTube
Fireguard
Ashes of Creation Alpha 2 P2, Touring a node, the basics

This video is more of a vlog, I am explaining the basics of a node and the buildings within them. The things you can do within a node. I also go over caravans, the map of nodes, borders, some shrine stuff, touch on the crafting and refining, and the mayoral stuff.

Low quality vlog video but there for those who want it :).

https://ashescodex.co...

▶ Play video
#

here is the current node system in alpha 2

#

RIP Enveus lmao

tepid wadi
#

I should probably watch that

timber prism
#

Im waiting for Alpha 3 in August to dive back in but yeah.. this gives you the basics on its current iteration

#

lvl up node, mobs level up

tepid wadi
#

I worry that they are thinking 2 steps forward, but it's not going to be unique enough to be as rampant of a success as they need

#

Like the node system is cool, but they may not be using it to its potential

timber prism
#

its a very pvp oriented sandbox

tepid wadi
#

Hopefully they don't make the Atlas mistake that we talked about the other day.

timber prism
#

yeah

tepid wadi
#

TOO PvP centric with not enough activities for non-PvPers

timber prism
#

im sure someone can be a slave pve'er for a pvp guild haha

#

they definitely have like world bosses etc for raids

#

but im curious on what other pve activities there are

#

i absolutely hated leveling up in A2 and got too bored to hit endgame

#

someone i know really loves the game though but strictly for the endgame pvp and basically suffered through leveling to get to it

#

which imo.. is not a good sign at all

tepid wadi
#

Their crafting system is very standard, and it makes me sad.

#

I haven't wanted to buy into the alphas, but I'm a bit concerned by what I've heard so far.

timber prism
#

being a fan of many many MMO's.. I definitely do not recommend playing A2 XD

#

but some really want to love it for the "potential"

tepid wadi
#

I love a lot of the concepts that they're going for. I'm just worried by everything I've seen

#

I'm so tired of games having "potential". They need to actually be good

tranquil cove
peak marsh
#

Actually two of them I really liked the ideas of ended up becoming crypto games 🤮

tepid wadi
#

Lol

timber prism
peak marsh
#

One of them actually went from paid early access to free to play to crypto -.-

timber prism
#

We really need someone to solve MMO's from needing fresh starts

#

i dont think it will happen in our time

#

XD

peak marsh
#

That's why they're all PVP focused lately. The players create the content and the skill ceiling

timber prism
#

so the next best thing is tech advancement like VR

tepid wadi
#

Man, I really think it's the living world concept. Keep things fresh

#

That and making the world actually an enjoyable place to exist in

timber prism
#

Yeah, living world is for sure the answer.. I dont think anyone will pull it off

peak marsh
#

That's it. Just make a world people want to exist in, then events that actually shake up the status quo without being gear treadmills

#

Or power creep

tepid wadi
#

Yep, one place where I agree with @tranquil cove is that power scaling as the primary progression system is the wrong idea for a MMO.

peak marsh
#

Look at WoW. We have a 30 year case study where they tried to focus on power creep and it only ever got better when they brought it all back down again

tepid wadi
#

Yep. Honestly I think it's one of the things that keeps GW2 alive.

#

Not raising the power level forces them to just... make interesting content

tranquil cove
#

i thought we always agree, you're just more diplomatic in explaining 😆

tepid wadi
#

haha

#

We agree on a lot of concepts, but disagree on implementations usually

tranquil cove
#

my big issue with levels in MMOs is when PVP is involved especially, it creates a level gap you can't balance usually, because the damage values are different at different levels, and the HP levels.

tranquil cove
#

like i used to do level design for a game

#

and sometimes i would have 10 versions of the same map, and ask people to play it, to get feedback.

tepid wadi
#

It's funny, that's actually one of the problems I see with modern MMO development

tranquil cove
#

so i feel like with implementation, there is a process there

#

you usually can't just "know" unless you had experience, or already saw a good implementation somewhere else

tepid wadi
#

They all go into a black box for 5 years to build a game and then players get their hands on it after so long and it often sucks. Why not start with smaller versions of mechanics and release them in small games so players can give feedback?

#

Like, adapt and grow it into an MMO, but use 3-5 leadup games that prove the concepts are good? (and evolve them if they aren't good enough)

tranquil cove
#

yeah i heard that devs will develop 3 systems somtimes in EA, and then release 1 system, and get feedback, and if players dislike it, they will release the second system that they already had developed.

#

but they spend a lot of time coding 3 different things

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, it really depends on the team and style.

#

But it's a problem when you spend years developing a system and then players get their hands on it 3 years later, it's often too late to make meaningful changes and then you have to ship something that you know people won't like.

tranquil cove
#

my confidence is more as an editor

#

or beta tester or whatever you want to call it

#

you can give me something, and i can analyze it, and see whats good, what needs work, what's bad pretty much instantly.

#

creating original ideas is harder for me

#

or knowing the exact detail of how to have the perfect system/implementation from step 1.

tepid wadi
#

I mean I don't think that anyone has 100% good ideas fresh out of the box

#

Evolving existing mechanics into better things is how we get really inventive games

timber prism
tranquil cove
#

i have new world, i stopped playing lol

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, everyone stopped playing

timber prism
#

in its infancy.. New World was actually extremely fun back in the alpha days

tranquil cove
#

back when i played, everyone enjoyed the crafting system, fishing, but not much else, and it was a good example of levels ruining pvp balance.

timber prism
#

I believe it would have been more of a niche game and kept a loyal following but trying to cater to the masses killed anything that game had going

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, back when it was a survival game?

#

I find it odd that big companies can't seem to fathom how to grow an IP from a niche into a massive appeal.

#

There are some really clear examples. Dark Souls, Monster Hunter are two that come to mind immediately

brave sedge
frank sonnet
tepid wadi
#

Early thoughts? A couple of my buddies have been talking about it as well

frank sonnet
#

it has a good balance of simple and depth to it

frail adder
#

Have everyone done their daily saluting?

peak marsh
#

Guessing stress over the bad reception of the patch

tepid wadi
#

There's actually a really good point hidden in there.

#

If buy a game, leave a negative review, then refund the game, you review still counts.

#

That system enables review bombing

#

I don't know how to fix it, offhand, but the guaranteed refunds by steam definitely enhances people's ability to do that sort of thing

vague galleon
#

whats the difference between review bombing and a game actually being bad and deserving bad reviews?

finite saffron
# vague galleon whats the difference between review bombing and a game actually being bad and de...

The actual difference is when the influx of reviews are sparked by some external, coordinated factor. I.E a content creator telling people to go leave negative reviews out of protest, or related to (often political) factors that are irrelevant to the gameplay itself, like a group of people disagreeing with something the developers said on twitter or something.

But that definition has been kinda lost at this point, and many bad devs use it as an excuse to brush off genuine negative feedback about their game.

vague galleon
finite saffron
#

What happened to War Thunder in 2023 is a decent example of an actual review bomb though. They made changes to that games economy, which in a vaccuum were pretty minor changes, but the community had gotten so sick of the games monetization getting worse and worse with each update that they all banded together (largely from content creators doing a call to action), and encouraged the entire community to leave negative reviews out of protest to get the devs to listen to their feedback. Which ended up working, they did a monetization rework after that.

vague galleon
#

ya. came across this paragraph and it made me wonder, although i read this after i commented.

#

ya. so it can technically be good sometimes.

finite saffron
#

and yeah what's happening to no rest for the wicked is blatantly not a review bomb, it's kinda shameful that they're trying to pretend it is. The game was changed, players didn't like those changes, they left negative reviews.

#

and not even that many players, it's still mostly positive

#

Moon Studios (and their CEO that made the review bomb comments) has a very poor reputation among professionals in the games industry. They're notoriously toxic and have had many reports of poor working conditions. So it doesn't surprise me to see the CEO lashing out at players as well

vague galleon
#

speaking of which. i need to leave an upvote or something on enshrouded about knockback and attaxk interrupting when it comes to combat.

#

would that be an upvote thing?

finite saffron
#

Sure, if there's not already a ticket for it. It can be any suggestions you want as long as you keep it to one idea per ticket

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, I don't think NRFTW is getting review bombed, I think it's really a combination of a lot of slightly annoying mechanics that add up, and people going in expecting an ARPG when it's more like a survival game with a dark souls arpg slapped on top.

tranquil cove
# finite saffron The *actual* difference is when the influx of reviews are sparked by some extern...

there should be a way to leave temporary reviews, that require updating every 6 months for EA games, and require playing the game 1 hour within those 6 months imo. this is for EA games only.

reviewing is so subjective, i could leave positive reviews with tons of criticism still and I have. so it depends on value for price, on expectations etc. but ultimately it's very rare that a game should be 1/10 or 0/10... if you look up movies on IMDB for example that are 1/10 you get a handful of movies where the popular consensus is that it's 1/10.. maybe 50 movies in the entire world of all movie creation.

So I think the idea of writing a whole game off, all the work the devs did, all the good aspects of that game, because you specifically dislike 1 thing... would be considered review bombing to me.

#

the problem is people view reviews as agents for changing the devs minds... and giving feedback.

finite saffron
#

Honestly as a dev I have a lot less issues with Steam's review system than I used to. Separating "recent" reviews from the total score was a huge change that really helped that problem. It means that ancient reviews will no longer keep a review score down even when the game's recent reviews have been positive

tranquil cove
#

thats a good change

finite saffron
tranquil cove
#

lol

finite saffron
#

Hey we listen to you guys lol

tranquil cove
#

guys.. i think water is taking too long

#

how many months now and still no water? hovers over negative review button

finite saffron
#

fell_cry voxel water is hard okay

vague galleon
finite saffron
#

so when the recent is blue and the "all" is red, it doesn't look as bad as a single score being red lol

vague galleon
vague galleon
finite saffron
#

Honestly I'm a little surprised how passionate so many people are about water. I play lots of voxel games and I've never thought "oh man, this game would suck if it didn't have water" lol

vague galleon
#

for real

#

also. is the map nearly complete or is it eventually going to fill out the entire gold border?

atomic pike
#

TMNT killed my need for water in video games

finite saffron
vague galleon
#

cool. i hope to see what shows up to the west!

finite saffron
#

We don't have it precisely down to like, the exact voxel, but we plan to expand the world border quite a bit more still

atomic pike
#

Don't add water

#

🤣

vague galleon
#

good good. i need more to explore!!!!!

finite saffron
#

I think the engineers we've had working on water would go ballistic in the office if we told them that we changed our minds lol

tranquil cove
#

i know a way you can change your mind

#

with every purchase of enshrouded, you ship customers an enshrouded water bottle, filled with water. therefore fulfilling your promise of water being apart of the game.

atomic pike
#

Anyone play the Dune Awakening beta last weekend?

peak marsh
#

I missed it, but from what I've heard it's promising though rough around the edges

atomic pike
#

I had an absolute blast

finite saffron
#

Did they have an open beta that I missed? Been wanting to check it out

atomic pike
#

Closed beta

finite saffron
#

I briefly worked on that game at my last company before getting laid off deercat_sadthumbs

atomic pike
#

I only had two little glitches

#

But oddly enough, with how great Conan Exiles melee combat was, Dunes is not great

tranquil cove
#

why were you laid off? tell us the drama

#

what were your vices

atomic pike
#

Did Dennis lay you off? Screw that guy and what he did to Conan lol

tranquil cove
#

oh right, you encouraged players to leave negative reviews 😛 😆

finite saffron
#

Not much drama, I was part of one of the studios that was doing co-dev on that game. Our main game (that I was primarily working on) died, and funcom didn't need any assistance from their co-dev studios on community management, so all of us in the publishing team got axed fell_cry

#

Enshrouded has been fun to work on though so it ended up being okay

tranquil cove
#

that sucks, good you found a new job

atomic pike
#

Dumbcom

peak marsh
#

That's how the Toast got burnt

tranquil cove
#

thats how the toast got ejected

#

from the toaster

atomic pike
#

Conan was such a great game back in the day

#

I have 3k hours on the PlayStation version

finite saffron
# atomic pike Dumbcom

I honestly know very little about them, from where I was sitting I didn't interact with them much. That decision to lay me off had very little to do with them though, they already had a publishing team so it's not surprising they didn't want to contract any from other studios

atomic pike
#

And they got bought by Tencent, I'm assuming around that same time

finite saffron
#

Nah both my studio and their studio was owned by tencent long before I ever got laid off. Honestly as far as investors go tencent seems pretty chill lol, they are fairly hands off and long-term oriented, unlike a lot of western investors that are obsessed with short term profits

atomic pike
#

Yeah

finite saffron
#

short-term gains is a terrible strategy in an industry where each product takes like... 5-7 years of development to release

atomic pike
#

Honestly, with the amount of really cool systems Conan and Dune have, I'm amazed anything works

#

Not to discount all the things Enshrouded does

tranquil cove
#

if a publisher backs you, it should mean they already trust you to be free to make your game the way you want. otherwise, why give you money if you're going to micromanage

finite saffron
#

I'm curious what the total budget of Dune will end up being, in terms of studios/devs working on it it has got to be one of the highest budget games to release in a very long time

#

Soo many studios doing co-dev on that game.

#

And funcom is big to begin with

atomic pike
#

If they can fix melee combat a bit, holy crap is it going to be amazing

#

And private servers are going to be out of this world

round beacon
#

kinda fear for the monetization models in that one, they dont make a good start already.

atomic pike
#

I didn't see any monetization models yet

#

But I know people hated what they did to conan

round beacon
#

Early Acces Premium is a monetization modell, isnt it?

atomic pike
#

Which is odd because it's all cosmetic

#

It's a bonus like any other deluxe edition

#

And it's only like 5 days

peak marsh
#

Nah Conan had the issue of everything down to horse riding being a dlc

finite saffron
atomic pike
#

Well, hosted private servers, like on gportal

round beacon
atomic pike
#

Not at launch, but they will be available

finite saffron
atomic pike
round beacon
atomic pike
#

Meaning it's not really an mmorpg

finite saffron
#

At least when I saw the pitch years ago it was more like an MMO survival game than an MMORPG

atomic pike
#

Exactly toast

peak marsh
#

It's because nobody is going to spend $130 to have access to everything on a centralized server xD

atomic pike
#

So servers work in a very interesting way

#

You have the main server, then multiple node servers. I forget what they call them

peak marsh
#

Not for as much jank as that game still has

finite saffron
#

On paper it's like, the coolest game ever. It's just extremely ambitious. But a game that starts off as a survival game, and slowly morphs into a political MMO (like Eve) when you reach the end game, is really dope.

atomic pike
#

Each PvE areas is its own sub server, when you enter a community hub, or the deep desert pvp area it is on the larger main server

finite saffron
#

But yeah it's sooo ambitious that the question is whether or not they'll be able to pull everything they're attempting off or not.

atomic pike
#

So PvE zones will have like 40ish ppl. Hubs and pvp areas hundreds

#

The Lansaraat is interesting. Too much to type here, but check it out

#

But yeah, hopefully they can pull it off. The beta didn't have endgame at all

#

Only the first two pvezones with a hub or two

#

The environmental sound direction is absolutely amazing

#

When I logged off at the end of the beta I intentionally got eaten by a sand worm. Lost everything on be for good 🤣

finite saffron
#

The most clever system I heard about (that I think they're still doing? Hopefully I'm not leaking something) was their system to allow solo players to enjoy end game content.

Basically big clans can create "contracts" that solo/small group players can take, which allow them to gather resources, fight as mercenaries, build schematics, etc. and be rewarded in exchange for helping the larger guilds out.

I thought it was an incredibly clever solution to the problem that political MMOs have, where their end game feels almost unplayable if you don't join a big guild.

atomic pike
#

It kind of works that way, but they've split it up

#

You can do all that, but they also have an auction house

#

You can even sell maps that will show spawn points for resources etc

#

Or give them to your clanmates

finite saffron
#

Yep, so sounds like they kept that system then, they had that planned from the beginning

atomic pike
#

But you choose to join one of the two main houses, accomplish tasks for the other small houses and they all "vote" at the end of the week

finite saffron
#

It's very clever imo, I hope more political MMOs like Albion adopt that system, would make those games more fun

atomic pike
#

The house that does the most wins the most votes and can get buffs

#

Buffs can be PvE or pvp related. They seem to have learned from the infighting of PvE vs pvp in conan

#

Another cool thing is the deep desert has a large "storm" come through every week. Reshapes the maps as far as resource spawns, caves that are accessible etc

#

So you could find a schematic that's powerful one week, then it gets buried and no one else can get it until the storm uncovers it again

#

From what I've seen, high end schematics are a one time use, and not a recipe you keep in your knowledge

#

There are a lot of cool dev talks they've done recently that explain stuff better than I can

#

The creative director always seems drunk though 🤣

frank sonnet
atomic pike
#

Lol probably

#

The shameless hitting on the community manager chick is a little cringe though 🤣

finite saffron
peak marsh
#

Yeah, that's a massive red flag and a half

atomic pike
#

Yeah, it was semi gross in one of the videos

#

I hate to judge on looks, but the dude seems a little bit like a slob who is full of himself

#

I was thinking "Joel's ass is getting fired"

frank sonnet
finite saffron
#

Oh I don't think that lol

#

If anything it has gotten better, it used to be real bad.

atomic pike
#

No one I play with think that lol

#

Most of my gaming friends have at least contributed to a game

finite saffron
#

Every time I think of old-school games industry I think of the code notes in The Simpsons Hit & Run
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_b2B5tKBUM (strong language warning)

YouTube
Jansen
The Simpsons Hit & Run Source Code Comments, Read by Comic Book Guy

Taken from the recent source code leak - also includes some excepts from milestone reports.

I originally thought about doing this with different characters, but nothing quite beat Comic Book Guy's delivery. Some of the clips are too funny to not share, so here they are separately: https://mega.nz/file/VdRB0CjA#6Mxv1L5jC_VKyVpDcQomHiLj3I8bAB65Y...

▶ Play video
atomic pike
#

That's hilarious

#

I write a lot of scripts for Adobe Illustrator to automate some of my processes, and I have notes that say things like "//for the love of God, work this time"

peak marsh
atomic pike
#

I keep seeing articles about DQXII. Please just release it already!

#

I have to beat Claire Obscure first though 😬

finite saffron
peak marsh
#

And there were no public outlets to make it known other than actual press, and like you said going to the press would be career suicide

frank sonnet
#

i've watched a lot of larry bundy jr his content is a interesting insight to how brutal the ye old games industry was

peak marsh
#

Especially when corporate entities are involved, because the guy in charge of your gaming project at say Fox or Warner Brothers was the same person in charge of tie in lunch boxes and toys. They didn't know the first thing about game development, just marketing and release schedules

finite saffron
#

Well that part hasn't changed lol

peak marsh
#

So a lot of "it has to have this because the movie/show has this!" 'Sir, that would add 6 months to the development time' "You have a week, get it done!"

#

Yeah, it still happens but I feel like people blame developers for the shortcomings less these days

atomic pike
#

I saw some guy go off on Dune because there was no sand walking in the game

peak marsh
#

It's more broadly understood how bad corporate oversight is

atomic pike
#

Do you realize how boring that would be?

#

Goodness lol

finite saffron
atomic pike
#

@finite saffron what part of Dune did you work on

finite saffron
#

I didn't work directly on dune, just sat in on a lot of meetings for it because my studio was

atomic pike
#

Got ya

#

What was the studio doing

finite saffron
#

Well before I got laid off we had our own live service game that my team was working on, when that died that's when we all got yeeted. For dune the studio was doing co-dev on a lot of visual assets, as well as being in charge of one of the in-game regions. I don't think I can say which one, that might be under NDA

atomic pike
#

Yeah, only 2 regions were in the beta, with only 1 other being mentioned, so it's probably NDA territory haha

tranquil cove
finite saffron
#

There's lots of games that never release, but nah this one was a live service game that was out for a few years, it shut down because it never ended up being sustainable

#

Which is why my team got yeetified, if there's not a live game to work on there's not much for community managers to do

peak marsh
#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dm-VT9jQtSA - kind of a long video but basically what I've been saying about the issue with negative reviews in early access

YouTube
Legendary Drops
Steam has an Early Access problem

Displate is turning 12, and their biggest sale of the year is live. You can get 33% off when you buy 1–2 Displates, 37% off when you buy 3, and 42% off when you grab 4 or more. Use code LEGENDARY or click the link here to get the best deal: http://displate.com/lp/bday?art=675afb499946e. The sale runs from May 16 to May 26, so don’t m...

▶ Play video
vague galleon
#

remember wolcen?

#

was supposed to be a really cool and unique and original ARPG without any classes to tie you down, and I heard they switched gears and copied diablo 3 or something.

#

i think i bought it at some point, I should give it a play.

#

i really need to find someone to play outward and grim dawn with.

tepid wadi
#

I loved Outward, but I tried booting it up recently, and it feels kind of old

#

I like a lot of the concepts in it, but I never really felt like the execution hit the mark for me.

tranquil cove
#

dead island 2 is free on epic

vague galleon
peak marsh
#

Which is fine, they didn't sell millions upon millions in EA so I'm perfectly fine with them calling the project good for now and working on other things

#

And I mean, using the proceeds from Outward they were able to start their own publishing arm and start work on Outward 2

#

And from what I've seen the sequel looks like it will feel a lot smoother by comparison

vague galleon
#

i hope the characters are less ugly lol

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, I'm happy to wait for Outward 2, I'll definitely buy it

#

I think the unpolished and old feelings go hand in hand for me. Some games are unpolished because they've got lots of little bugs, other games are unpolished because the mechanics they use feel clunky. And those latter ones are the ones that end up feeling old to me because a lot of older games existed before we kind of discovered user friendliness 😝

peak marsh
#

Or how to operate a camera in 3d space xD

#

Thank you Mario 64 for finally showing us the path to getting rid of tank controls

tepid wadi
#

It always amuses me when some game tries to reinvent the wheel for camera controls, and it ends up sucking

#

There's a reason we've all gravitated towards these controls. Unless you're actually doing something unique for a reason, just... go with the standard please

peak marsh
#

We have a standard, it works, we all agree that we like it, no need to be clever

tepid wadi
#

Well, if they're actually doing something clever, I approve. But attempting to be clever and failing just makes you look bad

open siren
#

Later on in the game, do we get something better than a water well for water?

tranquil cove
#

like the devs are working on adding water

peak marsh
tepid wadi
#

Theres also an improved water well

gleaming vapor
#

I randomly stumbled upon this game - Oppidum - on the Steam Store recently and it is the little game that could that needs some damn hype! Give it a try if you're looking for some variety in your gaming life!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbKIgq5H1Lo&t=583s

YouTube
Mediocre Milton
Is Oppidum Worth Playing?

✅ If you enjoyed the video make sure to Like and Subscribe and if you really enjoyed it and want to support my channel even more become a member today - https://www.youtube.com/mediocremilton/join

In this video I take a look at Oppidum, a new open world survival adventure game, and let you know if it's worth playing.

Thank you again to EP Ga...

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vague galleon
#

pretty.

frank sonnet
#

The graphics are kind of giving me deep rock vibes

peak marsh
tepid wadi
#

Amsuingly, this kind of already happens. How many times have we restarted games when returning to them after a few months because you cant remember wtf is going on?

peak marsh
#

That happened to me with Ghost of Tsushima most recently. Played again after a long break and made a massive mess of my first enemy camp xD

timber prism
vague galleon
#

😮

peak marsh
#

Microsoft playing 4d chess, why let Valve compete by releasing a steam console when you can be the steam console

peak marsh
#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EInxe1MnlbQ - @finite saffron Force approves 👍

YouTube
Force Gaming
I Can't Believe How Good Enshrouded Is in 2025

One of my favorite survival games just keeps getting even better. Super impressed with Enshrouded's development so far, looking forward to the future. Thanks to today's sponsor, Ragnarok X: Next Generation. Check out Ragnarok X: Next Generation here - PC: https://ragnarokxglob.onelink.me/QUL1/202558v1
Google play: https://play.google.com/store/...

▶ Play video
finite saffron
#

another force video cade_pog

tepid wadi
#

I'll echo one sentiment from there: When the game went into EA it was already more polished and complete feeling than most survival games. And seeing it evolve from there has been amazing.

#

I agree with a bunch of his other points too, but that one is a huge standout

peak marsh
#

Yeah agreed. You really don't see survivals that launch this polished and feature-filled

#

This and maybe V Rising. IDK that I would include Valheim because while it had a lot of features at launch there was also a fair amount of jank

#

Aspects of Valheim were very polished, like the sailing and soundtrack

#

Visuals too, though I know not everyone enjoys that kind of OG Playstation look

#

But then you look at something like Dragonwilds - Polished, but relatively barren. Or games like Lost Skies or Aska, that have more to do but need a lot more polish

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, the amount of "accepted jank" in survival games is usually pretty high, so when a game comes out that just feels... clean and well featured, it's a strange (and good) feeling.

peak marsh
#

From the beginning I think my main descriptor would be "clear vision". They clearly know what they want to do and how to do it and it shows in everything that's released so far (not that it's all been 100% perfect, but still)

tepid wadi
#

Heh, you don't build your own engine if you don't have any idea what you're planning to do

peak marsh
#

Where I think survivals mostly have been dominated by smaller studios/single devs who either don't have that clear vision or don't have the experience/resources right out of the gate

tepid wadi
#

Or they have the gas in the tank to get to early access release and then peter out super fast

peak marsh
#

Yeah, there are too many of those, which I think speaks to the broader lack of experience in the genre. Even Valheim, for as good as it is, lost focus and didn't have any major updates for like a year and a half, which I'm glad they got back to it but it really showed kind of that lack of experience I'm talking about

#

And TBF it's a first project for a lot of the Irongate team, so they probably didn't expect it to be a big deal to "take a bit of a vacation" as Dvoid put it

#

I think Enshrouded and V Rising have both been the most polished and the most consistently updated and improved survivals I can think of, full stop

#

But I think generally before Keen and Stunlock, the space has mostly been occupied by a lot of fresh out of college devs/teams looking for an approachable first project, and I feel like that's why a lot of them peter out, they don't understand just how much work they're actually taking on

peak marsh
#

tl;dr Marathon is using stolen art from the internet

frank sonnet
tepid wadi
#

At least 3, by my count

frank sonnet
#

why are they even stealing anyway?

peak marsh
#

The prevailing theory as I understand it is that several people on the art team were using that artist as reference (which is fine and happens all the time) but because of all the layoffs, bad management with a lack of oversight, and pressing deadlines, mistakes were made. Then they tried to blame it on "one artist who is no longer with the studio" even though there had to be dozens involved

#

That comes from the original artist mentioning that several members of the Bungie art team follow her as well as people familiar with conditions at the studio speaking anonymously (ie; likely laid off former employees who don't want to be named so they can still find work)

frank sonnet
#

so they created a dysfunctional everyman for themselves environment and it came back to bite them in the ass

peak marsh
#

Essentially, yep

#

Less nefarious, more checked out employees working thankless crunch taking shortcuts to finish a doomed game and no oversight to correct it

vague galleon
pearl valve
#

.

peak marsh
#

Another billionaire CEO having a "let them eat cake" moment

#

"Make it happen! You don't need 3 meals a day! Look at it this way, taking a second job means the game will last longer since you'll have less time to play it!"

tepid wadi
#

"Find a way to make it happen" = not buy game until it's on 50% or more sale 👍

frank sonnet
#

good thing i don't give a crap about borderlands

tepid wadi
#

A lot of my enjoyment of late has definitely been from Indie/AA games

#

Big announcements like Borderlands or GTA have me skeptical given a lot of AAA releases

peak marsh
#

At this point I'm not even moved enough to be skeptical. It just does nothing for me because I already know it won't give me a better experience than some of the games going for half the asking price of a AAA

#

I mean, limited exceptions for certain franchises but same, for the most part I have 0 excitement about a GTA 6 or a Borderlands 4

#

Once I started learning more about industry practices and seeing more predatory business models I was just off-put enough to stop caring

frank sonnet
#

i think this gif perfectly represents the state of the aaa game industry

tepid wadi
#

I have many feelings on it, but since I work in the space I won't shout too loud about them

peak marsh
#

For me it's more the moral bankruptcy than anything that checked me out. Treating devs as disposable cogs instead of human artists and the many, many issues surrounding that approach

#

And I mean, it shows in the end results much of the time

#

According to internal leaks, "morale is in a state of free-fall" and "the vibes have never been worse". Miserable management putting devs through a miserable time to ultimately release a miserable product

#

And I mean, I watched a good chunk of their live stream addressing the game, and even without a video you can literally see on their faces and hear in their voices that they're miserable

#

More out of interest in the story than in the game itself

frank sonnet
#

its a industrial mindset

tepid wadi
#

IDK why some of the big companies like EA don't see how their actions are contributing to that and reverse course

peak marsh
#

Thats why Expedition 33 makes me so happy. It's a roadmap for others

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, for sure. The studios are also (wisely) staying privately owned, so they aren't beholden to the stock market and stakeholders and stuff

peak marsh
#

I mean sure. They've seen what the end of that rabbit hole looks like

#

Looks a lot like this xD

image.png
tepid wadi
#

Yeah, I saw that comment.

#

The sort of 'club' leadership seems to be pretty common in games, unfortunately.

peak marsh
#

Apparently they're crunching hard because in 2026 senior Bungie leadership gets paid out for the acquisition by Sony and they want Marathon done before then so they can leave and let Sony/whoever at Bungie is left worry about upkeep. Which is always the best motivating factor behind good art, leaving someone else holding the bag xD

vague galleon
#

does this have anything to do with their original marathon game?

peak marsh
#

Name alone. The leadership just wanted an old property to tie a live service to

#

The original Marathon trilogy were single player narrative driven games, this is a multiplayer extraction shooter

timber prism
#

As much as I enjoy indie games... i will forever be happy to see new releases from AAA like Rockstar. Their games has constantly been top tier

#

RAGE is such a good engine

#

RDR2 to this day just looks and plays great

#

Borderlands however.. hasn't been good since 2

#

I could care less about anything to do with that IP these days

frank sonnet
#

i heard the ceo is a pos

peak marsh
#

Yeah, Pitchford is a real peach

vague galleon
#

i tried the marathon shooters. not my thing.

tranquil cove
#

i never liked rockstar

#

they appeal to an audience that isn't me basically

#

was never a fan of GTA after 2

#

my idea of fun isn't really pvp, or simulation drug dealing and gangstas vs cops etc. when i go to simulation of real life games, i lean towards sims 3/4.

#

now i love to watch other people enjoy GTA, like bayareabuggs on youtube, where they do crazy stunts and police chase them.

#

same with Red dead redemption 2... i like westerns. on the tv.

#

but playing it? not so much, and style of it? not my style.

vague galleon
#

the only good gta is the one you can play with friends.

timber prism
#

I remember as a kid my friends and I got on to our schools server and installed GTA

#

We were able to LAN from all the different class rooms and play during class

#

The top down ones.. maybe London? I can't remember but it was awesome

#

RDR2 was a fun open world to play in and the story is the best story Rockstar has done... which isn't saying much bc the stories for GTA werent great. Bully was interesting as well

#

Midnight Club were also good racing games

frank sonnet
timber prism
frank sonnet
native topaz
#

türk var mı

peak marsh
tepid wadi
#

TL:DW: stock buybacks, just like every other massive corporate entity.

frank sonnet
#

Theirs plenty of legit reasons to hate AAA game corpos this is just scraping the bottom of the barrel for content

peak marsh
#

Yeah, it's just stock restructuring they would have done whether or not Respawn was axed

tepid wadi
#

Well, if we do some quick maths. Assume each laid off person makes 150k (probably high), and if they laid off 400 people. Thats about 60 million a year.

If split fiction getting an EXTRA 200m is a drop in the bucket, is investing in new projects really that risky?

#

Seems more about selling the narrative to the shareholders than actually impacting the budget

vague galleon
#

im so glad i dont care about AAA games anymore.

tepid wadi
#

I have to care for career reasons, unfortunately.

finite saffron
# tepid wadi Seems more about selling the narrative to the shareholders than actually impacti...

Yeah this is why I avoid publicly traded companies like the plague, it leads to shenanigans like this. It's no longer about making a good product or good business decisions, it's about doing things that trick shareholders into making the number go up. It's terribly unsustainable for an industry that requires long-term stability to actually make stuff happen. Games don't get made in a single quarter, even though shareholders want them to be

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, one day I hope to join (or found) a company untethered to the line go up mentality, but until that happens, I have to suffer with the industry

peak marsh
#

Well and plus it's that constant churn they need to maintain, where they're constantly having new releases while also constantly driving costs down while also constantly making record profits, and I mean, very few if any companies are consistantly making record profits year after year for ever and ever

#

It's in the most literal sense unsustainable

tepid wadi
#

Indeed

finite saffron
#

I think part of it is tied to US companies honestly, which is also why I avoid them as much as I can. The games industry work culture is pretty bad all over the world, but in the US it feels rotten to the core. I honestly can't say I've heard of any devs from a US studio telling me stories that sounded particularly appealing.

#

Idk if it's cause of the lax work laws, or work culture, or both, but given the things I've heard I would have left the industry by now if I was working for those companies.

peak marsh
#

Yeah, the US industry is really where the cesspool is at it's worst. Canadian, European, and Japanese studios aren't perfect but have far, far better practices than we do

#

I mean Japan has some issues as far as how worker treatment and work/life balance is viewed, but also they have the view that layoffs are the direct fault and failure of the management not handling the company properly, so they avoid it at all costs

vague galleon
#

japan has AWFUL work life balance. T-T

peak marsh
#

CEOs at both Capcom and Nintendo have taken pay/bonus cuts specifically to avoid layoffs

#

Worker treatment too. Again, layoffs or firings are seen as a failure of management, so if they want to get rid of you, they put you in an empty office with no one else and no work to do so your morale eventually gets so low you just quit

vague galleon
#

wouldnt work on an american.

#

although it depends if you can play on your phone or not I guess.

peak marsh
#

That or they have you do menial tasks like take every spreadsheet generated for the last quarter and transcribe them to paper by hand for no reason

#

After you went to school to be an art designer etc

#

It's really psychologically abusive

vague galleon
#

ya

peak marsh
#

Without saying it directly, they're basically making it clear "you serve no purpose here, you should just leave"

vague galleon
#

relatable.

peak marsh
#

Of everyone I think European studios have the best practices that I'm aware of

#

I mean, excluding Ubisoft anyhow xD

vague galleon
#

a shame cause they had some great games and ideas that they just kept mishandling........

#

spies vs mercs could have been so good.................

peak marsh
#

How long has it been since the last decent Rainbow Six game, a decade?

#

Prince of Persia, finally had a studio figure that one out after like 15 years but welp, better lay them off

#

Rayman is drunk in an alley somewhere

vague galleon
#

i enjoyed vegas 2.

peak marsh
#

Next to Sam Fischer from Splinter Cell

vague galleon
#

beyond good and evil.........

peak marsh
peak marsh
#

tl;dw: Article bemoaning how successful indie games are going to cause industry "deprofessionalisim" where industy professionals and roles are going to start making a mass exodus, and the host picking apart that idea for being silly

timber prism
#

@peak marsh https://store.steampowered.com/app/1153410/JDM_Japanese_Drift_Master/

Steam
JDM: Japanese Drift Master

Explore the birthplace of drift and dive into Japan’s iconic car culture!

JDM: Japanese Drift Master combines realistic, carefully-tuned physics in a simcade experience that’s as smooth on a controller as it is with sim racing hardware. Tackle hundreds of kilometers of open-world roads and uncover story-driven events and quests along the…

Price

$29.74

Recommendations

256

▶ Play video
#

JDM is out!

tepid wadi
#

...a story driven racing game?

#

😕

peak marsh
#

I'll have to see some reviews, but yeah xD I've been talking about how I want a racer not just as a change of pace, but also because I have a gamepad with analog triggers that I feel like I'm barely utilizing

#

I'm between JDM and the remake of Tokyo Xtreme Racer

vague galleon
#

the best racing games are the arcadey kart ones.

peak marsh
#

I have Sonic & All Stars Racing Transformed, which tbf is a pretty good time, but for some reason I've been kinda craving something more reality rooted

frank sonnet
peak marsh
#

Actually one of my favorite handheld device reviewers uses that game all the time to test analog triggers

vague galleon
#

my favorite racing game is probably sonic transformed.

peak marsh
#

It's a great time, especially with friends. I think I mentioned it before but I was in a competitive Guns of Icarus squad and we used that game to unwind

#

Actually our pilot gifted it to the whole crew because he loved it xD

vague galleon
#

oh man, guns of icarus, there were like 2-3 of those i rememeber.

#

shame i never really got any friends on board, fun game.

peak marsh
#

Yeah, I'm referring to the Online one, the multiplayer ship vs ship game

#

It was great early on but the devs completely lost the plot somehow

vague galleon
#

i think there was an older single player one or something.

#

im seeing online and icarus in my library but there was an older one.

#

flight of the icarus? did they change the name?

peak marsh
#

Yeah, it was basically a sequel to that, where each ship had a 4 person crew consisting of a pilot, engineer(s), and gunner(s), and the ship and each player could customize their loadouts

#

Most matches were 2 ships vs 2 ships and it was hectic and fun

#

It was going great as a competitive game, then the devs freaked out at a drop in active players, changed a bunch of mechanics, then scrapped the game to make it a co-op

tepid wadi
#

There are a couple new ones of those: Jump Ship and Wildgate

#

My buddies and I played in the Wildgate playtest a couple weeks ago and it was pretty fun

peak marsh
#

Yeah, Jump Ship looks pretty amazing

tepid wadi
#

Jump Ship is more realistic, Wildgate is more cartoony

#

I think I'd go for Jump Ship personally, I like my sci-fi more gritty/realistic visually

peak marsh
#

Same. I'm not opposed to the art style but I feel like in a fast paced game like that the stylized graphics would wind up feeling fatiguing and hard to focus on

#

Stylized art like that feels more MMO-y to me

tepid wadi
#

I just don't love it. I'm also getting really tired of "hero based" games. I want to play my character

peak marsh
#

I've never been into the hero genre in general. If I'm playing something along those lines it's a mech game where you can still customize your loadout

#

The last 5 years of shooters feels like everyone saw TF2 and went "well, lets just do that"

tepid wadi
#

Try last 15 years, but yeah

#

I'm so tired of quippy dialogue constantly going off as I'm trying to play a shooter or whatever

peak marsh
#

Yeah, I'm beyond the age/point of being impressed by edgy snark

vague galleon
#

i still love playing Quake, although only in short bursts.

#

but games like guns of icarus are the kind I could only play with a group of friends. and mics are essential

peak marsh
#

Yeah, literally essential. There were some players who could get by without one but for the most part people in lobbies would boot people without mics

#

Though honestly the game is a shell of what it used to be at this point. Really years ago they should have gone free to play IMO but with all the changes they made most of the entrenched playerbase left

tepid wadi
#

Yeah... also playing with people other than your group in those games is really rough

vague galleon
#

never do a complete overhaul.

peak marsh
#

I mean, for just having fun pubs weren't bad if you weren't married to always winning, but definitely a bad crew can drag the experience, and a complete crew can dominate matches

#

I'd pub for practice alone, trying other roles (I was mainly an engineer - always the healer xD) but when our competitive crew was together for practice we routinely dominated matches

tepid wadi
#

I always end up as the pilot in these games, heh

peak marsh
#

Pilot was fun but I was never as good at it as I was as an engineer/secondary gunner (part of the engy role is fixing stuff, the other part is taking the other gun batteries when it isn't necessary)

#

Usually you'd have a pilot, a gunner with several ammo types, and two engies, one who mains repairs and one who repairs and guns. I was the latter on our crew

#

I was also kind of a beast with the gattling gun. Each ship has a hull which is basically a shield before you start doing actual health damage to the ship, so you'd use one weapon type like the gattling to strip the hull faster than their engies could repair it, and once it breaks then your gunner unloads with ship damaging rounds

#

I could hit ships from extreme distances and get their engies panicing early xD

#

Panicking engies means no secondary gunner, so it was a pretty big strategic boost

#

If you have one engie already focused on their hull, you just need your gunner plinking away at their balloon or engines to get the other busy, then they only have one gun on you

#

Did I mention I played competitively? xD We were in several official tournaments, placed second in one of them

frank sonnet
tepid wadi
#

I've never done those things competitively, but I always end up as the pilot because it always feels like the way I can make the best impact on the team. I just don't trust anyone else to be able to pilot the ship effectively.

timber prism
frank sonnet
#

well that's disappointing apparently your character doesn't have any dialog after killing Malachai in path of exile

timber prism
tranquil cove
#

i uninstalled RD2 to make room on my hard drive since ill never play that game

#

RD2 example of a game i want to give away

tranquil cove
#

they got ddossed for 3 months straight

#

and had a hard time defending against it

#

almost like somebody was after them so they would fail

#

wouldn't put it past a competing game company to do that

#

funny nobody mentions the ddos in the reddit thread about what happened to guns of icarus

#

they are saying dumb things that dont matter as usual, like wah wah engineers class was so boring, so obviously that's why 5000 players quit

#

yeah no. it wasn't that boring. that's like saying healer in an rpg is boring? some people love to support others and enjoy healing, and healing being their only contribution.

#

in pvp battle if i could heal my 4 man group, and we dominated the other team, that was fun, and i got to brag how i saved all their lives when they had 2hp left and were red lined.

#

the truth is what the dev wrote

#

Over the last 3 years, we had our servers crushed by the mights of TotalBiscuit and other youtubers, and we’ve been ddos’ed. In one stretch I slept so little that, in semi consciousness, I ran into a door beam and got a concussion and a nasty cut, spewing nonsense in meetings that no one understood. Through it all, we’ve learned a few things that hopefully would be of use.

#

and we’ve been ddos’ed

#

they never recovered after the months of ddos

#

the population dipped from 4000 to 800 and never went up again.

#

i was there. i know.

#

i think 1 time after an update it went to 3000, but they already lost the initial boost they would have had if they never got ddosed

peak marsh
timber prism
#

@peak marsh unless you really like drifting... I would pick txr over jdm atm

peak marsh
timber prism
#

Wonky ai

#

Grip racing isn't as good

#

Jdm has a road map on their store page to see nee features

peak marsh
# tranquil cove they got ddossed for 3 months straight

I mean, I remember the ddos but a big part of it was just bad decisions. Changing ship and gun balance based on what the devs wanted, not what the community was saying, not hosting enough tournaments to keep excitement up, and then putting dev time into a silly co-op PVE mode a small fraction of players actually wanted

tranquil cove
#

i'd be like, yeah lets make a coop game too

#

less headache

#

than to deal with entitled kids, half of which hack your servers

#

lol