#other-games

1 messages · Page 40 of 1

tranquil cove
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the offending game is still in my steam library

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i want to prune my library

round beacon
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lol

tranquil cove
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and gift some games i personally think are garbage and give them away for free.

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because i'll never touch those games again

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but someone else might enjoy those games

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i should be able to resell the game even, and get like $2

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and the developer gets the rest

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for whatever the game is currently selling for

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basically like selling my license away or whatever

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i could use that $1 to buy steam cards and raise my account level or something

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would be more useful than that game sitting in my library

round beacon
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would bring a whole bunch of already exisitng problems into even muddyer territory. its simply not that easy. even though i support your basic idea there. its a bit more complicated than that

tranquil cove
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yeah i understand, but if these were hardcopies

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we could gift them to friends, or sell them to friends - developer would make nothing on it, (sell used copies). i think steam should think about possibilities that existed when things were hardcopies, and then provide a market for those transactions where they and developers can still make money

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this would increase customer loyalty imo

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it would probably put a dent in pirating too

round beacon
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or make pirating more menacing in a different way.

tranquil cove
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i did contact customer support once, and told them to outright remove a game from my library

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even though i spent $20 on it

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and they did it

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rofl

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i forget what game it was

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but i was like NAH i dont even want to see this game

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LOL

peak marsh
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Can't you do that manually by right clicking it?

round beacon
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yes you can 😅

tranquil cove
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you can hide games

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not remove them from your account usually

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unless they are free games, free games i think you can remove from the account

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like DOTA

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or whatever

vague galleon
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i have. its.... okay.

peak marsh
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I'd maybe think about regifting my copy of Bad Rats xD

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(old Steam meme, really terrible game you gift to people for the lulz)

tranquil cove
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i have at least like 20 games id give away

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maybe 40

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lol

timber prism
tranquil cove
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i don't want the game, i'd rather give it away for free to someone else

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in one case i know i have a bunch of hidden games? in the other they are gone.

timber prism
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Gone and hidden is the same exact thing if you just don't want to see them

tranquil cove
# timber prism So zero difference

if the police hide a criminal in your house, you still a burgalar in your home, compared to removing them from your house entirely. it's not zero difference.

timber prism
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Two different things

tranquil cove
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one is literally hiding, the other is gone

timber prism
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A criminal can actually do harm

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And is a safety concern

tranquil cove
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okay then a none harmful ant colony

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or an old fridge

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that is broken

timber prism
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If you had an invisible fridge that didn't take up space

tranquil cove
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it takes up mental space

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like i said i know its hidden

timber prism
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It really doesnt

tranquil cove
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and therefore it's not hidden

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you aren't me though, i don't want to hide the game, i want it gone

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but i want it gone in a way where someone else can enjoy it for free

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rather than just deleting it

tepid wadi
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I don't think gifting will ever happen, unless you also haven't played the game at all (or to a certain point like the refund point), as a business I can't imagine Steam ever being like "yeah you can freely trade games"

timber prism
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You can remove it from your library with steam support

tepid wadi
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Game sellers classically don't like aftermarket game sales 😝

tranquil cove
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i want to be fully aware of everything on my account, hiding games doesn't enable me to see everything, and like what i see.

timber prism
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Mentally it shouldn't even exist that you own it

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Just a license to it

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It wouldn't even be hiding at that point

tepid wadi
tranquil cove
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also alot of these games i have 1-2 hours in

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or zero

timber prism
tranquil cove
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folders? you mean tags?

timber prism
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BUT

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You can actually remove the game off your account

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Under steam support

tranquil cove
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i dont want to just delete the game

timber prism
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Well too bad

tranquil cove
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why y'all not understanding that i want something specific

tepid wadi
tranquil cove
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stop trying to change what i want

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wont happen

tepid wadi
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This is how I have mine set up

image.png
tranquil cove
tepid wadi
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I don't think steam automatically assigns categories to the games

tranquil cove
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and i dont have time to sort 350 games individually lol

tranquil cove
tepid wadi
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Lol you could do it in half an hour and never think about it again

tranquil cove
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all of these were auto sorted by steam

timber prism
tranquil cove
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no you make the category

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steam auto sorts into that category

tepid wadi
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Just make a manual category for gams you don't want to see and add the games you don't want to see into it

tranquil cove
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yeah but they might appear

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in the other categories i have

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because steam actually doesn't provide enough customization

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they could have done this part of their features better imo

timber prism
tepid wadi
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Yeah it could be better, but I mean, comparing steam to basically every other library (epic, microsoft, etc), it's MILES ahead, heh

round beacon
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they are the only ones that actualy.give you anything in that regard

tranquil cove
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i even contacted support and had them delete 1 game already

obtuse scroll
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Why not just hide the game? There is an option for that

tranquil cove
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because it doesn't jive with my organization system which automatically categorizes games

timber prism
tranquil cove
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i like to see everything on my account

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steam built their platform on the idea that you can customize every part of your account

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so i want to curate my account to have only certain games, not pretend about it

peak marsh
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I need to make some categories for my games. I don't have a huge list but organizing beyond alphabetically is probably a good call

tranquil cove
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in general it helps me find games

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sometimes i still use the search bar

misty arch
peak marsh
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I'm holding out for player reviews. Afaik the pvp wasnt included in the closed betas, and that's the part I want a full practical grasp on

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Specifically if it's like Albion etc where you literally hit a ceiling if you don't want to pvp

timber prism
peak marsh
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Maybe that was the content creator version then. Force did a review and he said they didn't have the PVP yet

timber prism
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Maybe he just didn't do it but that would be weird to remove it

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I don't know if they just gave them a small slice to play but that would be an interesting choice to not let CC play that part of the game

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Yeah. You can just YT it and there are recent videos on it

peak marsh
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https://youtu.be/NQOQ4E8Z80Y?t=1964 - He mentioned they didn't have access to the large scale PVP

YouTube
Force Gaming
I Played 50 Hours of Dune Awakening (Early Review)

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▶ Play video
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(I copied the link at the timestamp - not the full vid xD)

timber prism
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Weird

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Well. There are other videos you can watch

peak marsh
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Yeah TBH I haven't sought out any either, guess I'll need to research a bit

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Though from the sounds of things PVP doesn't enter the equation until the very late game anyhow

timber prism
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I'm not sure whats under NDA or not talk about so I won't give my opinion on it XD

peak marsh
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Fair enough, I just want to know if you can more or less ignore the PVP and still be viable in the late game, or if you reach a point where it's either PVP or play something else

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I'm not completely opposed to PVP I just don't like when it's tied to progression in games like these, multiplayer survivals/mmos

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Which I fully admit is entirely a me issue, I just know I'm no competition for a sweaty 17 year old with a squad when I work a full time job xD

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Like, since it's tied to spice harvesting I'm completely cool with the idea that "if you want to run a mega-guild and have the resources to build it up you need a PVP crew", but not "OK solo player, get out there on the battlefield and get your end game ore"

misty arch
peak marsh
vague galleon
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SO MANY FINGERPRINTS

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also I HATE that D-pad.

peak marsh
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Yeah. Like I know it's just a mock-up for an FCC filing but like, would it have killed you guys to hit it with a microfiber? xD

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IDK, I'm kinda interested in the D-Pad. If it's done well with a good pivot like a Genesis or Saturn controller it could be solid

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You don't see a lot of "disc" D-Pads on modern consoles

vague galleon
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i despise disc d-pads.

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a dpad should be 4 solid directions

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every since i had to deal with the GTA5 menus, I will forever be annoyed with a d-pad that does a different direction if I give the button a slight tilt.

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I wish I had stockpiled a few xbone controllers but maybe those ones you like are worth it for that.

tepid wadi
vague galleon
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huh?

peak marsh
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Both Genesis and Saturn had great disc style pads

vague galleon
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ya but analog sticks werent a thing back then.

peak marsh
vague galleon
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okay.

peak marsh
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I didn't say it wasn't groan-worthy xD

vague galleon
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indeed. XD

peak marsh
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A big part of their market is retro gamers, so good D pads is a big part of what made them successful

vague galleon
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that and nice triggers or L/R2s

peak marsh
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Yeah, they have more Playstation style ones, where they're analog with a range from 0% - 100%

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Or you can switch them to hair trigger mode

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And the shoulder bumpers are nice and clicky

vague galleon
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i like xbones triggers, and the GC ones where it's more like an actual trigger. that curve is nice.

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ah those arent bad

peak marsh
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They have a good size and feel to them

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They make me want to play a racing game. I think the only one in my library right now is Sonic & All Stars Racing Transformed

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I used to play regularly in a Guns of Icarus squad and one of the guys got it for everyone to play online because he really loved kart racers xD

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Maybe I'll get Tokyo XTR when it drops

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Oh wait, it is out xD

timber prism
timber prism
peak marsh
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Yeah

timber prism
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Bc I swore I told you about it before bc I've been playing since it went into EA haha

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The only thing I don't like about it is they kind of force you into buying new cars

peak marsh
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Like, in game or MTX?

timber prism
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In game for progression

peak marsh
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Ah, ok. Yeah, the original was like that too IIRC. Buying new, better cars was the main progression path

timber prism
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No car fantasy like Initial D haha

peak marsh
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It'd be cool for an endgame kinda thing if you could just soup up any car you want to max stats

timber prism
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Like OG TXR you could definitely keep up regardless of car class but it would be much harder

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Now it's like legit impossible

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Still a fantastic game

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I'm really looking forward to JDM as well

vague galleon
timber prism
peak marsh
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Yeah, 2d fighters really demand a good quality d-pad or maybe one of those fighting game controllers

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These:

93279982_xxl.png
timber prism
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I use a hori pad when I want to use a controller

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Yeah. Leverless

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I have 3 levered sticks

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And a leverless

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On top of my horipad

vague galleon
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then they can use a special controller and not force me to have a shitty d-pad that thinks left is down!

timber prism
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User error

vague galleon
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bruh the xbox 360 controller sucks.

timber prism
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Legit my favorite controller XD

vague galleon
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it's a D pad. FOUR directions!

timber prism
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I wish mine still worked

vague galleon
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xbone > 360

timber prism
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My halo 360 controller lasted until a few years ago

vague galleon
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alpha 3 max on the PSP the little analog stick was so much better to use than the d-pad.

peak marsh
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I loved the PSP but I always found that little analog nubbin kind of annoying

timber prism
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Pretty much

vague galleon
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I liked it!

peak marsh
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I mean like, it was done about as well as you can do one of those but it always made me want to use the D-pad or wish I was using a proper analog stick

vague galleon
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i loved my PSP...

timber prism
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I gave mine away

peak marsh
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Oh same 1000%. For what it was at the time it was some amazing tech

timber prism
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I had one game

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Patapon

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And my friend enjoyed it so much I gave it to her XD

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It was a cool handheld for sure

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But I personally don't hand held often

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Like the last thing I think about on the move is playing a game

peak marsh
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I had MHFU, imported portable 3rd, God of War chains of Olympus, and the Final Fantasy remake

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Yeah honestly I mostly played it in bed/on the couch, I never actually took it anywhere xD

timber prism
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I almost bought the ps5 thing

peak marsh
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PSP is why I got into Monster Hunter xD

timber prism
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Just so I could game while the gf wants to watch a show XD

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So I totally understand the couch/bed thing lmao

peak marsh
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Good call on not, I hear it's getting better but by all accounts the experience hasen't been great

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The most common complaints I see are spotty connection and input lag

timber prism
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I was gonna get it with the anniversary ps5

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But of course failed to get one

peak marsh
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I guess it's gotten a lot better recently with some firmware updates

timber prism
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I'm hoping it just fails so I can get one hella cheap XD

peak marsh
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Sadly it's probably only going to get more expensive -.-

timber prism
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Like that steam portable thing before the Steamdeck came out

peak marsh
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Honestly I think Valve should have continued with that and had it as a parallel product to Steam Deck. A cheaper streaming handheld with less options for people who just want to take their PC games from the desk to the couch, then a more robust full on handheld console

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Could make it both cheaper and more lightweight than a full deck

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Cause the Steam Deck is a chonker

frank sonnet
peak marsh
timber prism
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Poe1 whoa

peak marsh
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I can literally hear those freaking goats xD

peak marsh
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Oh wait, looking again that's the spot before the goats with all the skeletons and that plague archer guy

vague galleon
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i barely handheld anymore but

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bounty hounds was awesome

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i bought a new psp battery to play it again. i want another stab at the final boss.

vague galleon
peak marsh
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Great sword best sword xD

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But yeah, it takes a lot of getting used to

vague galleon
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couldnt kill shit lol

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seems they made shit way easier in the newer games.

peak marsh
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They lowered the learning curve a ton since the PSP games

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Part of me kind of misses the skill wall you had to climb but I admit it feels better overall than it used to

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Still managed to clear the content in Monster Hunter Freedom Unite all the way through G rank with it though xD

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I've thought about getting a PSP again since they're relatively cheap and easy to mod

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They make great emulation handhelds

vague galleon
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true true

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i never jalbroke mine but I did use it as a minilaptop and as a MP3player.

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the way it sat in my pocket i could keep it locked it or swiftly unlock it, tap the shoulder button to the next song, and then lock it again while walking.

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it was great. and was better than my actual MP3 sony walkman

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but what i wouldnt give for a proper zune that could play my MP4s and MP3s with no software fuss.

hybrid heart
peak marsh
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMVhpxmGxZg -this is that game someone dropped a referral link for a little while ago. Apparently it's gotten scammier (also, AI and crypto MTX lol)

YouTube
Callum Upton
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▶ Play video
peak marsh
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I have a controller with analog triggers, seems like a waste that I don't have any racers xD

vague galleon
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i only like kart racers for the most part.

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FUEL was good.

frank sonnet
peak marsh
livid tiger
tepid wadi
# peak marsh https://www.gamesradar.com/games/action-rpg/stats-in-souls-dont-matter-ori-studi...

Yeah, I dont know. I think it might be that that sort of stat system is very binary for players. Like "I'm doing a strength build, so I will completely ignore dex, int, and faith."

And a lot of players will dump ALL their stats into their one or two damage stats, ignoring the support ones like health, stamina, or equipment load. Then the game becomes insanely hard for them because it expects you to have put some points into those stats but the player hasnt.

peak marsh
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I mean, that's a rite of passage for games with stats though. You screw up your first build, learn from mistakes, and reroll

tranquil cove
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so you need to put points elsewhere

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and also as the stat rises, it costs more points to invest into it, sometimes you dont get enough points, so you're forced to put it elsewhere when you level.

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if you play de-levelled, game gets too hard

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plus each class requires 2-3 stats guarunteed, with maybe another 2 optional ones, and 1-2 stats that are not needed at all.

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and most players know this

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but if souls is skill based, you should be able to win naked with zero stats.

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that's the very basis of a skill based game.

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its just your movement and aim that matters in skill based

timber prism
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I haven't put a single point in some stats and focused on equipment load

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I have like 6 points (2 levels in stam ) another 2 levels in agility and the rest is equipment load so I can wear armor and be fast

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It's a messy system but it actually makes sense they want to change it bc no one should have to dump so many points in equipment load to be able to wear a full set of armor

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The problem is that they tiered armor into light medium and heavy and you basically have to be naked to stay fast unless you do it this way

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I forgot what interview or forum post it was but one of the devs responded about this gear issues with "people said they don't like wearing pants"

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Which is basically the equivalent to "Do you guys not have phones"

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At the very least.. you should be able to be "fast" in a full set of light armor without having to dump stat points into equipment and make them do it if they want to wear medium and heavy

tepid wadi
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Yeah, default stats should let you fast roll with the lightest sets of armor, it's 100% a balancing issue if not. If there's an ultra-fast roll that requires you to basically wear no armor that's a different thing, heh

tepid wadi
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The only thing I could see maybe altering would be getting rid of the core stats like "health" and make them progress naturally as you level up. It never feels good to invest in health/stamina/etc, so either making it so they never level up, or always level up would free up the player from needing to invest in those stats. You could even tie minor upgrades to them to other stats (like strength for health), but make it so the game doesn't feel like it's necessary to upgrade those things.

timber prism
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One thing I noticed about the devs is that they really don't seem to know what they are doing or explain their intended system in any meaningful way and can't focus on what they want their game to be

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They seem to want to fuse looter with souls gameplay but don't even tell people what weapons scale off what stat immediately

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They also put time gates into the game for some reason or another which really don't help the game in any meaningful way

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Since i play casually it doesn't matter to me much but if i was going to no life a game and had to wait 2 or more hours for a building to upgrade i would be super annoyed.

tepid wadi
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Yeah for sure. I think the build timers are lile 1/2 or 1/4 what they were on release too

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I remember it being a real slog

timber prism
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Yeah and you can reduce that timer by upgrading another thing

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But it really shouldn't even be a thing

tepid wadi
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Yeah

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Its a single player game, why even have timers?

timber prism
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Probably to excuse that abysmal resource respawn rate XD

peak marsh
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The whole building upgrade thing seems kind of tacked on so far. Like, maybe upgrading storage and house interior makes sense but not upgrading every shop front - just make the upper tier stuff expensive or require rare materials

tepid wadi
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I dont mind it from a conceptual level, I like the idea of rebuilding the town during the game so that it looks cooler as you get further and further. And it also manages progression, new items as you upgrade with crafting materials from new zones, etc

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The implementation/balance doesnt hit quite right currently, but its a solid core

timber prism
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It would be totally okay if it wasnt timed

peak marsh
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Idk, like I get it on a basic conceptual level and done differently it could be cool, but it just seems a little strange. Like why are you, an outsider and a cerim, who half the town doesn't seem to want there anyhow, responsible for rebuilding?

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Like nobody can grab an axe and cut 10 wood logs for the staircase?

tepid wadi
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I feel like Cerim are just the sort of "get shit done" people, and it's demonstrated via quests that only a few people are willing/capable of leaving the walls, what with all the monsters and stuff about

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Also the staircase specifically is in a spot where no one goes, I'm pretty sure you're told that no one uses that room so why would they bother repairing it?

timber prism
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😂

peak marsh
tepid wadi
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Thats not a balance problem, people are just bad.

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Game is not THAT hard

finite saffron
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Ahh, balance problem or skill issue, a tale as old as gaming

frank sonnet
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they call not rest for the wicked a souls like yet it looks more like a diablo like to me

tepid wadi
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It's the perspective of a diablo game (isometric) but the gameplay style of a souls game (weaon style based combat, dying revives you at a 'bonfire', etc)

peak marsh
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IDK, perspective-wise the whole rebuilding/material cost thing seems a little odd to me, but I don't really find it that offputting. Maybe I just haven't hit the worst of it but given how much I'm willing to grind (and wait) in other games I doubt it will bother me that much overall

frank sonnet
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i don't follow what the dev is on I've never played dark souls but this looks relatively straight forward

resizedimage640360-D155A887-D17D-4433-BB2E-0227FA5AD8C3.png
finite saffron
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I don't think that's No Rest for the Wicked's menu is it? That looks like dark souls or something

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I think part of the difficulty controversy from that game comes from the studio that made it, their previous games were the Ori and the Blind Forest series, which were significantly more casual

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I imagine there's a fair bit of overlap that isn't into the more hardcore elements of NRFTW

round beacon
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ori games where AWESOME

peak marsh
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I just don't get what people are going in expecting. Like I haven't personally found anything nearly so abrasive that it deserves a mostly negative on Steam

finite saffron
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Seems like most of the reviews were about "QOL" concerns when I checked, so maybe they don't like old school styled games/clunkiness

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I know there's a lot of games I love that get similar kinda reviews. Unfortunately when modern games don't hold your hand or give you lots of shortcuts that upsets a fair chunk of players out there

peak marsh
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IDK, like the outrage over the timers I kind of get. V Rising only had one big timer for sending your minions out to get resources, and a lot of people complained about that one. I get the argument, the timers might not seem bad if you're putting down 8 hour sessions, but if you're a busy adult and you only get an hour or two for gaming a night, an 8 hour timer is basically a week

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I find for the most part "wait timers" like that have a way of making people feel like the game isn't respecting their time, especially when it's a progress gate

finite saffron
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Oh does NRFTW have real time wait timers? Yeah that does seem odd for a singleplayer game

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At least V Rising is like... MMO-esc, or at least tries to be lol

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V Rising always felt like it couldn't decide whether it wanted to be a co-op survival game or open world PVP game to me

peak marsh
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Yeah, when you upgrade town facilities like say the blacksmith, you contribute resources then you have a real time wait for upwards of hours

finite saffron
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Yeah that does seem a little odd for a game that is singleplayer, I could see that being annoying

peak marsh
finite saffron
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Yeah I bought the game day 1 of early access and I went into it thinking it was a PVP game haha

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and I think it's better as a coop survival game, but it was funny to see the identity crisis it kinda had

peak marsh
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Yeah xD Though it's worked out well because they came out of the gate with a solid framework both for the PVP and PVE crowds, and they've been able to focus on just adding and refining

timber prism
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I understand the complaints

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No one wants time gates in a single player game

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Or useless bonfires to cook while making resource gathering painful

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Or terrible weapon balance

finite saffron
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I love grindy games but that's because I'm mentally ill

peak marsh
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Unless resource gathering is a primary focus and point of progression. A survival game can get away with having resources be difficult because they're the goal. In a game like NRFTW, it's just prep for the actual progression and that makes it much more abrasive

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It's having to do your chores before you can go out to play

timber prism
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People tend to like souls like bc you can just refill pots by resting

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Having to force people to cook food with finite materials is bad

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You get punished for failing a boss fight and gotta spend an hour making healing food

peak marsh
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Or grind resources to rebuild the smithy to craft better weapons, etc etc. It feels like a questionable choice when most Souls games just make it cost later game drop materials or put the good vendors in harder areas

timber prism
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Fail a boss enough times and you can't even farm the material until it's super long respawn happens

frank sonnet
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the grind has to be worth it

peak marsh
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I mean, it has to be towards accomplishing an end goal. If grind is the focus of your game, again like a survival, it's fine and part of reaching your goals. If it's in an action game like this, it's a distraction from the goal which is to fight higher level/tougher things

#

And again, in a game nobody wants to have to vacuum the floor and wash the dishes before they can go do the fun part

peak marsh
#

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MVo4anM9fY

YouTube
Luke Stephens LIVE
Star Citizen Financials Show Losses Despite $800 Million Raised - L...

👉🏼 LINKS: https://linktr.ee/lukestephens 👈🏼

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tepid wadi
peak marsh
#

The servant timer was the big issue, but if you play on a server (majority) it ticks even when you're offline, and someone actually made a mod for people who play solo/locally to do the same thing

#

If NRFTW had a system like that I think it would be less objectionable, but when you're talking 8 real time hours only when the game is running, for some people that's an entire week's game time if you only play an hour or two after work

#

Like it'd be another thing entirely if you could start a project, log off and go to bed, pick up tomorrow and it's done and waiting for the next one

#

Like, it's inherently a system that respects your time less the less time you have to give it in a way. It's more punishing for someone who only plays a couple hours at a time vs someone who plays for 6 - 8 in a shot

#

And working adult gamers are some of the primary audience of primarily single player games

#

I mean personally I'm still digging in so I haven't seen the worst of it to say if I find it abrasive or not, but I get why people have the complaint

peak marsh
#

Fun random side fact I just picked up, GTA 6 has officially taken longer to develop (so far) than it took to build the worlds tallest building from excavation to grand opening

vague galleon
#

games are getting too.... ah whats the word.

peak marsh
#

Bloated?

tepid wadi
#

Corporatized?

#

I think part of it is that games are also literally reinventing the wheel a lot of times because they use different engines to build games.

vague galleon
#

over the top?

tepid wadi
#

AAA gaming definitely has a problem where they have to build the biggest and best games in the history of all gaming. And they have to be the biggest and best sellers ever as well.

vague galleon
#

like, i mean the detail is impressive and i'm happier with booty physics than horse physics but like,
man. some of us are still happy to play PS2 era games.

tepid wadi
#

They can't seem to understand that they'd probably make more money if they only did a giant game once a decade, and also made some small and mid-sized games

peak marsh
#

I mean, can we really call companies like Bethesda or Rockstar relevant when they only release a game twice a decade?

tepid wadi
#

I think it's like typecasting for actors. They've pigeonholed themselves into only releasing genre defining games and will work on one until they feel like they've made one. They just can't release anything else

#

And it's... not actually good for the company

peak marsh
#

I mean, I get it, it's kowtowing to the investors and the board, but it consistently puts them at odds with the end consumer

#

Like, stock values will fall if a game release isn't a 10/10 and top 5 on the sales charts

#

Then you look at a game like Expedition 33 that only took 2 years to develop and has a bigger concurrent player number than Oblivion Remastered

#

Hit a million sales in a week

#

Not dollars, copies

#

Maybe not every game needs to be on the absolute bleeding edge of graphics fidelity and boast 1,000 hours of gameplay in a custom engine xD

vague galleon
peak marsh
#

Also that. Could point to EA and their sports games while we're at it

vague galleon
#

i mean, that's to be expected

peak marsh
#

Basically a roster update with a new minigame added

vague galleon
#

ya

timber prism
timber prism
frank sonnet
vague galleon
#

is this that new one?

peak marsh
#

Nah, the OG

vague galleon
#

ew

tepid wadi
#

Gotta train those AI systems that no one wants somehow!

misty arch
#

if you have Dune Awakening on pre-order they just annoucned this
Good news!

Everyone who has a Dune: Awakening pre-order can now also access the Beta Weekend!

peak marsh
#

That's cool of them

night current
#

Tried playing Valheim for the sorta first time (had it in my library for a few years and faffed about for 10 minutes but never really did anything else) because it's "the greatest game of all time" or whatever and man, I really hate the resource management and base building taking more wood than I can actually carry

tepid wadi
#

Some of the mods that makes valheim significantly comfier are mods 'crafting/building from chests', that's for sure.

frank sonnet
#

you know i have come to the conclusion that i don't like base building as much as i thought in games

peak marsh
#

I love base building, but it has to either be done very well or have a purpose, like defense etc. Too many survivals throw in meaningless build systems because they're "supposed" to have them

#

But either the build mechanics aren't fleshed out enough to really be creative with mostly boring Ikea pieces, or it serves no functional purpose

#

Winds up feeling like tacked on busywork

peak marsh
#

Also in the early goings don't bother building up a huge megastructure. Think like an exploring viking, you only need enough to build your ship and sail to the next land, until about the 3rd or 4th biome there's no need to have a megabase really

#

Mostly in that game, at least in vanilla, it's far more effective to have a series of outposts and save your big base for when you can find a good centralized area in close proximity to your most used resources

#

Only do the megabuild if you grab the "teleport with resources" mod

#

But also, I'd stop well short of calling Valheim "greatest of all time". It does a lot of things very well but falls short in several others

tepid wadi
#

I usually find it fine to do larger buildings once you get to the iron age. The longship has enough storage that you can fill it with a ton of metal and only need to take occasional trips back to the main base, and you can use portals to get most other resources home.

frank sonnet
#

imo i would rather have a blank slate i can tailor to my desire or multiple options for a base.

tepid wadi
#

I have fundamental problems with progression-based survival games. Like, I want to build a cool base but you dont unlock cool building materials until most of the way through a playthrough and by then I'm established enough that I dont want to rebuild.

peak marsh
#

After a few it just makes you not want to build extensively until endgame, but then the game forces you to in order to have more production

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, like my last Enshrouded playthrough, I didn't want to do any real buidling until I got to the desert because I wanted to build a desert-themed base, but by the time I got there, I needed a really well functioning base at home so I didn't want to rebuild from scratch at that point and move everything over.

It's not just visual, but very much progression based. Like in Valheim you go wood -> stone -> tar -> marble -> grausten, and if you want to build a cool grausten base, you HAVE to go through almost the entire game before you can. And at that point it doesn't feel worth investing in a new base.

#

It's quite the conundrum. Because you don't want to just... unlock all the building materials at the beginning, but there's no reason to build a neat base once you've already basically completed the game.

peak marsh
#

Stick all the NPC beds in the attic and just drop crafting stations wherever xD

night current
#

Honestly for NPCs, I just do what I do similarly to Terraria but instead of individual wooden prisons I just stuff a bunch of beds in "the crate" and call it good.
Terraria: NPC prisons
Enshrouded: NPC hostels

peak marsh
#

I primarily put my main crafters down around their associated crafting stations, and the rest I stick in the attic. I want to make a proper town but I likely won't do it until after 1.0

#

But therein lies the problem and the design flaw. If I'm having to wait until endgame to really feel like I want to build because of how the build system is structured, how good is the building system?

#

And not to pick on Enshrouded, we were just talking about Valheim and it's a great example with it's structural integrity system. The game literally punishes you for trying to build too big too early

obtuse scroll
peak marsh
#

xD

obtuse scroll
vague galleon
#

totally ya

obtuse scroll
#

Don't get me wrong, I love to play Valheim, but sometimes the building system makes me wish I had a physical disc of it to throw out the window O.O

vague galleon
#

i would happily play valheim with 2+ friends.

#

it's funny when falling trees try really hard to kill me.

obtuse scroll
vague galleon
#

i bet!

peak marsh
vague galleon
#

YA THATS THE ONE

peak marsh
#

My favorite Valheim gif xD

vague galleon
#

sadly my only gaming buddy isnt into these games.

tepid wadi
obtuse scroll
short sail
#

What if trees hire other killers.
I think that's what happened with the greydwarfs or?

tranquil cove
#

i think so

#

greydwarfs related to the forest possibly. i remember some lore like that. or maybe just fallen vikings?

obtuse scroll
#

I think Greydwarves are the children of Elder, because they spawn from the vines that are seed holders.

timber prism
tepid wadi
#

TreevP

tranquil cove
#

i dont really die in valheim anymore

#

but when i did, trees or 2 star wolves

#

2 star wolves during a snow storm

#

hard to defend against

#

perhaps ticks were tough, at the start too, but you can mostly roll them off of you.

obtuse scroll
#

I die all the time. I like to run in and blow things up....I really must remember mages are ranged O.O

tranquil cove
#

the queen got easy after battling her for hours.

#

i didn't play ashlands very long, so no comment

obtuse scroll
#

Ashlands is like one long raid of things that murder you over and over again.

#

Just when you think you got through all the little mobs, the big ones show up with more little ones

tranquil cove
#

i forget was there some flying thing that was dangerous

#

and everything else was okay

obtuse scroll
#

Yes, the Valkyrie

tranquil cove
#

nothing in plains really kills me anymore, not even the wasps, id say 2 star wolves more dangerous

obtuse scroll
#

No, none of the stuff was okay, they swarm in groups, there was Valkyries that fly and shoot lasers at you, then the Morgans that are bone monsters that can roll right over you and squish!

tranquil cove
#

next to like 2 star draugr maybe

obtuse scroll
#

Deathsquitos not wasps LOL

#

They are evil misquitos

tranquil cove
#

yeah i didn't play ashlands very long

#

i spent a lot of the game in swamps, plains and mistlands

#

need to do another playthrough when deep north releases, and explore ashlands and north more

obtuse scroll
#

Ashlands is not as fun. The building materials are nice, but the actual play is subpar

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, its a little too hectic to be fun, I agree

obtuse scroll
tepid wadi
#

Yeah, it's not BAD from a concept point, but the rest of Valheim is so relaxing with brief moments of hecticness that it feels out of place.

night current
#

I'm glad that Valheim has mod support (I'm using mods from this massive guide) and also world customization tho Idk if dying still drops every item because I have it on the chillest game mode that isn't the Creative Mode but dying still drops everything

#

Still hoping there's mods that help fill out the map or add better "biome colors" because early game, it's hard to distinguish the borders of the Meadows and Black Forest besides hovering over the mouse

peak marsh
#

IDK, I played it vanilla may times and had a great time with it. While I'd stop well short of calling it "best evarr" I will say that it's a very solid experience for what it's trying to do and if that doesn't grab you, it might not be either the game's fault nor your fault. It just might not be a fit

vague galleon
#

i struggled with the dear boss and only beat it with the help of a friend so i quit playing it solo

tranquil cove
#

its pretty easy solo, but maybe you didn't look up what to do to guaruntee boss fight wins etc. or there was no info at the time because the game was newer.

#

the deer fight is pretty doable solo

#

best thing about valheim is really the building

#

i made a lot of beautiful structures, docks, towns etc.

#

it's rather fun because of the support system, the building rules... i find that more enjoyable than just a free build system like enshrouded. i also was never really a big fan of enshroudeds bubble that you're restricted to building within, obviously because without it you could just build a bridge across the entire map.

peak marsh
#

I mean, every game has that though. Instead of flame altars Valheim had workbenches

peak marsh
tranquil cove
#

and the purpose wasnt to limit building, but rather to provide a lack of enemy/mob respawn in the base boundaries.

#

in enshrouded it's clearly meant to limit building additionally to respawn since they don't have a support system like valheim to do that.

#

in valheim i can make a structure that spans the entire world. in enshrouded i can't do this.

#

the thing that enshrouded has over valheim, is the terraforming.

#

it has always been the terraforming, and possibly water included when enshrouded adds water.

#

enshrouded has smaller units of blocks, allowing for some slightly more detail, but it's not a big improvement necessarily - as i've made beautiful structures in both games.

#

the big improvement over valheim is the terraforming

#

it could have been the roof tiles, if they did my idea - where i wanted to easily swap out roof tiles without needing to dismantle and then re-place the tile.

#

a swap out block function would have been cool/fill this block, with a whole different block etc. would have been cool.

#

the grapple/hook systems are nice too

peak marsh
tranquil cove
#

sue is my wife, how can nintendo do this to me?!

tepid wadi
#

Wouldnt surprise me if we saw altar limits get raised or removed eventually as the engine + performance improves

peak marsh
#

Yeah, and honestly I'm hoping that will be a big part of coming updates. Performance is starting to become a sore spot for a lot of people and with a bunch of revamped environmental and lighting effects being added I can't imagine that getting better

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, its one of the challenges that comes with building the engine while they build the game.

#

But players are notoriously unforgiving with performance.

frank sonnet
#

this guys monster form was somehow easier to fight than his human form lol

20B99C1.JPG 2079251.JPG
vague galleon
tepid wadi
#

Yeah, I'd love if we could opt into high areas or free build or no resets or whatever, and they'd just warn us that we might impact performance or load times.

vague galleon
#

would be nice, maybe when we get creative mode.

#

just hope creative mode is toggable and not one or the other.

tranquil cove
tepid wadi
vague galleon
#

the power of mods!

frank sonnet
#

god the chat of path of exile is pure cancer. came to my senses and disabled that crap

tepid wadi
#

Lol, yeah its not great

timber prism
#

i can't believe you tried to read it XD

hollow barn
frank sonnet
#

Though surprisingly no slurs or barley disguised attempts at that them

tepid wadi
hollow barn
#

There is most likely more to the issue then just a huge save file

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, that's what I mean about warning them. The huge save file is why it would take forever to load

round beacon
#

you cant make it right either way. as we know from plenty of experience in here. even if you bash peoples heads with a warnin neon sign the size of the fell dragon. they still wouldnt read

#

and then go on a rant about how bad the games optimized despite the fact they try to run a world sized build in 4 k on a hamsterwheel powered toaster because "they can run other more visualy demanding games"

tepid wadi
#

I mean they do that anyway when they try and run it on a potato machine from 1995 🤷‍♀️

#

Not like it would change that much

round beacon
#

exactly. so why put more stress on urself knowing itll happen already without 😅

tepid wadi
#

Well, it'd be more about giving people who have nasa space teams who want to make crazy things the option to do so

round beacon
#

fair enough i guess

tepid wadi
#

Definitely shouldn't be a default option in any case. I'd put it in a second, more hidden 'special options' where you can do things like:
-Increase altar size/count to crazy numbers
-Increase draw distance to super far (for video capture without pop-in)
-Want persistent worlds that don't reset even on log out

round beacon
#

i mean yeah. would be cool to experiment with that for sure

frank sonnet
#

It would be interesting to see ai being used to make game worlds more immersive

round beacon
#

you dont want to start this convo here 😅

hollow barn
frank sonnet
#

I shall take this topic no further

peak marsh
tranquil cove
tepid wadi
#

Yeah thats a good point too

peak marsh
#

Like, it'd be one thing if they abandoned the project or pivoted to a live service model or something, but people are review bombing to gripe about things that are in progress and the team has said they plan to work on, to the point that the studio might not be around long enough to try

#

Which would be unfortunate because Moon generally does good things

round beacon
#

what? Gamers are entitled a..h..es too? its not always only the greedy big corpo publishers? Nooooooo!

the review bombing trend got out of hand just like everything else does these days, and is weaponized by people who for the most part dont even know what they are talking about.

peak marsh
#

Exactly that in this case. Like the article points out most of the reviews are about difficulty (I mean, it's a souls like) or the fact it doesn't have multiplayer yet, which they said was coming in a near future update

#

Like, you're harming their revenue to complain that there's no multiplayer to the point that you might never see it now

#

The Steam algorithm buries negative games, and buried games don't sell

round beacon
#

as they should. well at least in theory, if it hits the right spots. but it more often nowadays doesnt.#

peak marsh
#

I mean, it works for the things it needs to but in cases like this it also causes collateral damage

#

It's more the behavior of the people review bombing at issue than the algorithm itself

round beacon
#

ofc it is. thats why i said the idea behind it is a good one, the execution by those who wield that power isnt - and thats entitled gamers

#

even dumber to review bomb a game thats mid development early access. like you said, if the project was simply abandoned and leaves people empty handed, sure deserved, but under active development? join the discord and make your concerns heard there, and not this bs

tranquil cove
#

i was pissed at an early access game sequel that was nothing like the first game and was done badly but i still left them a positive review lol

#

because its early access

#

i just expressed the million things they need to fix in discord suggestions

tranquil cove
#

lol

#

whats also funny is this guy on my friend list says he's an indie game dev

#

shouldnt he understand game making better than anyone ? and also the dangers of leaving negative reviews. rofl

#

though i see other reviews that make sense

#

enjoy hitting trees, have time, and hate yourself? this game is for you lol

#

they do make fair points in these reviews, compared to the first guy who was just telling them to change the genre of their game and make it arcade.

peak marsh
#

I'm not saying some complaints aren't valid, but I'm sure if it was possible to go through all of them it wouldnt deserve more than half, amd frankly for how good the game is overall, it doesnt

#

And that's where I take issue, people leaving an entire negative review for one aspect they didn't like vs the 5 that they did, or for features that are still being tweaked and added because guess what, EA

#

It also begs the question of why was the game mostly positive for a year and suddenly dropped to mostly negative after the patch. Is it more realistic that they screwed things up so thoroughly, or that people are just being frustrated that the thing they want isn't in yet or the thing they like got changed without giving a chance for it to possibly be changed back?

#

For example, and this is why I'm against public roadmaps in general, a lot of people are mad because they thought multiplayer was coming in this latest patch. It wasn't, and they were clear that it would be a future patch, but people still got it in their heads then left negative reviews when it wasn't there, even though they said it wouldn't be

#

IMO roadmaps should be internal design documents and patch details should be drip fed until they go live

#

Because they create false expectations and things like these happen

#

Just like how tomorrow there will be a flood of people in #the-tavern and #enshrouded-chat complaining that there isn't water yet

vague galleon
#

so true.

#

ima get out my rolled up newspaper for them.

#

🗞️

tepid wadi
#

Their points are fair, but they're also a bit exaggerated. Do I think monsters could use a bit more stagger? Sure. Is it a major problem I have with the game? No. Do I love that your gear has durability? No. Does it interrupt my core gameplay? Also no, you don't lose THAT much durability unless you're dying over and over.

The backtracking is part of the core design of the game, areas level with you and new events are added and stuff. It makes the world more interesting when you go back through an area multiple times.

misty arch
peak marsh
#

But also, people grading the game on those quibbles rather than taking it to their discord or steam forums, voicing those opinions, and giving the devs a fair chance to respond, whether that means a change, a fix, or simply saying "that's our vision". Basically going straight to dropping negative reviews without giving the EA process a chance

#

Makes me wonder how many Enshrouded reviews are basically "no water, 0/10 game"

#

And by fair chance, I mean like give them a few patches to either address them or not before firing off a thumbs down

tranquil cove
#

the issue is players think their positive review amounts to trash that devs will never read, and they think the negative review brings about change in how the game is developed.

#

again it's a steam issue

#

steam should make a more nuanced system, perhaps even a feedback system for EA games.

#

their "forums" don't cut it really

#

because if the forums were consider valuable people wouldn't be leaving so many negative reviews. most of these people never used the forums once.

tepid wadi
#

The healing is kind of a tricky self-fullfilling problem. Personally I had no problem having enough healing, but the worse a player is at the game the more problems they'll have because they run out of resources. Then that makes other things feel worse because you have to go on gathering runs to get more healing items... etc etc etc.

tranquil cove
tepid wadi
#

They also have a problem where they're genre blending. Durability/repair in an ARPG is bad, but in a heavy RPG it's fine. People are going into the game with a lot of ARPG-type expectations and they aren't getting that because of the way NRFTW is working in other genre stuff

tranquil cove
#

the game i wanted to design would have armor breaking entirely. but you could repair it easily.

#

and my game would be expedition based slightly

#

meaning you could bring supplies to repair your armor, but they would be heavy and take up space in your pack.

#

otherwise you need to make it to town

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, I don't mind repair as a concept, but it has to be worked into the game in an appropriate way.

#

My big game design thing is "meaningful choices". Making players make choices that matter and that give them good feedback for making good or bad choices so they can learn how to prepare for situations, things like that.

tranquil cove
#

like my game, i wanted armor to basically break in 3 hits to a location on your body, and then that specific limb area would have no armor after.

#

and armor would have limited magical properties

#

it might 40% protect against fire once, but then decrease each time

#

and would need to be magically recharged

#

i was thinking to design inventory into supply space, and then expedition loot space

#

if you have a horse, the horse would have more supply and loot space

tepid wadi
#

Sounds like Monster Hunter, basically

tranquil cove
#

yeah they copied my idea i never played monster hunter

#

is their game open world?

#

or is it linear/instanced?

tepid wadi
#

lol, they've had that concept for like... 5+ years

tranquil cove
#

ive had my idea longer 😛

tepid wadi
#

It's sort of pseudo-open world. Large zones that are open to exploration, but not a whole "world" really

tranquil cove
#

also they probably don't do chivlary combat

#

or exanima based combat

#

which is what my game would be

#

specific limb damage

#

you die in 6-8 hits depending where you are hit

#

no arcade game, with arcade damages

#

monsters are deadly, a zombie can wreck you

#

ideal to team up with other players

tepid wadi
#

Well, mosnter hunter does actually do that. That's been one of the hallmarks forever. You can break specific monster parts, which changes their attacks and things like that.

tranquil cove
#

monster parts

#

not human parts on your own body

#

i would have done both

#

my idea was both

tepid wadi
#

Sure

#

It wouldn't really work with the scale of monster hunter, but definitely more "personal" type combat like chivalry

tranquil cove
#

like i said lots of games did my ideas, just not fully or compeletly

tepid wadi
#

Like how your limbs can get cut off and such

tranquil cove
#

like empire at war stole my whole idea for a starwars game that i had when i was 12 years old

#

i did it all on grid paper

round beacon
#

no one stole shit from you, at all. period

tranquil cove
#

except empire at war did full ships shields

#

and my idea was aft and stern, starboard and port shields

tepid wadi
#

I mean yeah, you don't own an idea until it's in a published game 😝 And even then you only own it if you patent it like Nintendo and WB, and everyone hates them for that.

tranquil cove
#

and you could redirect power from aft to stern shields etc.

round beacon
tranquil cove
#

doesn't change the fact that i thought of it before the game developers made a game.

tepid wadi
tranquil cove
#

stop basing your existence in this chat on challenging everything i write

round beacon
tranquil cove
#

15 years before? not likely

round beacon
#

stop basing your existance then on writing absolute dumb stuff

tranquil cove
#

why did it take them 15 years to make the game if they had the idea

tepid wadi
#

Because actually making games is really hard 😝

#

I have ideas that I've had for that long that I haven't made into games yet

tranquil cove
tranquil cove
#

i have lots of ideas that didn't make it into games yet, like i said monster hunter only implemented parts of my vision of a game.

tepid wadi
#

ehhh. I've been screaming into the void about skill based crafting in MMOs for at least 10 years. I've even worked on MMOs and haven't been able to drive the implementation.

round beacon
tranquil cove
#

i can give you 50 differences between monster hunter and my vision for my game

#

sorry cross i am not here to defend myself or talk about this, so i wont be responding, you are mentally ignored now.

round beacon
#

poor me^^

tranquil cove
#

you would raise skill for each item you craft?

#

rather than treating it as a group of items?

tepid wadi
#

No, I mean like the crafting system in itself is skill-based. Like how combat in a game like chivalry requires a certain amount of skill to execute.

#

So there is actually a player skill element to crafting. Like a master blacksmith hasn't just put in the time to raise his numbers, he's actually skillled at the crafting "Game"

frank sonnet
tranquil cove
#

how would you make crafting skill based, like add in gameplay to crafting? you have to hammer hit the iron by directing the shots to the iron like you would a sword to an enemys arm?

#

i dunno devs have a hard time implementing fishin games

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, an easy example is Bejeweled. Instead of the gems just giving you points, they give you different bonuses to your craft. Then, a combination of your ingredients, the recipe you use, and how well you do at playing the timed minigame determines how good your item is.

tranquil cove
#

imagine if you had to go through all the steps of real blacksmithing

#

even car repair simulators do a bad job of making fun gameplay out of it, or actual gameplay as opposed to mouse dragging parts.

tepid wadi
#

Adding that player skill results in being a good crafter actually having meaning to the game. If you have super rare resources to make a crazy good item, you might seek out someone who is a known master blacksmith to craft your weapon instead of doing it yourself, becuase they're known to be a super good crafter.

tranquil cove
#

they did that in ultima online

tepid wadi
#

Yeah

tranquil cove
#

but it was basically 100 blacksmithing, allows you to make GM items which are better

tepid wadi
#

Ultima was good for it, but there's a few steps you can take it beyond what ultima did that would make it a really cool element of an MMO

tranquil cove
#

there was no skill based mini game to raising the blacksmithing

tepid wadi
#

You can use it to promote social play, give other gameplay styles to the MMO, draw other types of gamers into the game, etc

tranquil cove
#

you're looking at 150 gig game or more though

tepid wadi
#

I've been working with my girlfriend on building a prototype for a crochet-based crafting system for "tailoring" that brings in the concept of how crocheting and knitting work IRL into a meaningful sort of minigame

tranquil cove
#

since a skill based game within crafting itself, and for every type of crafting? would be a lot of games packed into one.

#

like gameplay over animation

tepid wadi
#

Yep, that's why it's an MMO idea. MMOs aren't "one game" they're 15 games in a trenchcoat 😝

round beacon
#

kinda reminds me a bit of "Medieval Blacksmith" small indie one, but the system showed potential, that mech into an mmo, would actualy fit your vision @tepid wadi

tepid wadi
#

And, if we're going to see a successful next-gen MMO, it's going to need a massive audience. That means it needs to attract a lot of different types of gamers. The best way to do that is have really well-formed aspects of the game that can promote different types of gamers and draw them into the game.

tepid wadi
#

There was a "potion maker" one that I really liked

tranquil cove
round beacon
#

true, saw that one aswell

tranquil cove
#

and shearing them is something you actually do, by guiding your hands in the game

tepid wadi
tranquil cove
#

or someone who makes armor from leather, having to hunt the animals first. (which is usually the case)

tranquil cove
tepid wadi
#

It would also add to the immersiveness, like maybe some days I don't want to do hardcore pvp activities, I just want to farm and chill. BUT having those options in an MMO means that I can still play the same game and have a good time with a totally different experience.

tranquil cove
#

though it was a much simpler system in the 90s

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, UO was great, but tech has come SO FAR since then that a new game doing this stuff would feel super revolutionary.

tranquil cove
#

but UO had people who just did crafting, or collected wool from sheep and sold it, and thats all they did.

tepid wadi
#

Exactly

tranquil cove
#

yeah the trick is to not make it too complex, like inuitive and easy to follow at every step.

#

then it should be fine

tepid wadi
#

People keep trying to make a MMOs by recreating what old games have done, or copying WoW things. But the real secret sauce is making it so that there's just tons of stuff to DO that is not directly related to power progression and one gameplay style.

#

But like, for crafting specifically I can count on one hand the number of MMOs that have had crafting that is actually fun to participate in.

tepid wadi
#

And if you had like... 5-8 different crafting minigames for all the major disciplines? That would be super cool because different players would be good at different types of crafting, just like real life.

round beacon
#

and then you have the people who complain about not beein able to autobulkcraft whilst waddling through tiktok^^

tranquil cove
# tepid wadi People keep trying to make a MMOs by recreating what old games have done, or cop...

thats why my game idea has armor that really guarantees you can take 1-3 hits, or defense against fire 1 time, but after that the armor is useless, so its up to the player being skilled. it's sounds souls like, but it's not going to be that hard, because it will be designed better imo. so armor is not that important, except as an extra 10% survival. monster hunter i bet puts way more emphasis on gear.

tepid wadi
tranquil cove
#

i dont like games that are gear to win, or level based.

#

level based adds imbalances.

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, if chivalry had level based power progression, the game would suck

#

for example 😝

tranquil cove
#

if monster hunter has character levels? already nothing like my game idea.

tepid wadi
#

It doesn't, progression is totally gear-based. But it's also a co-op game, so it's not really the same idea as yours

finite saffron
# tepid wadi People keep trying to make a MMOs by recreating what old games have done, or cop...

It's a problem in the industry as a whole (copying what already exists instead of trying to make something new), and it's a problem that stems from game budgets.

Investors don't want to give you hundreds of millions to make an MMO unless they feel confident that it will be a success, and the only way you as devs can convince them it will be a success is by pointing to other successful things and saying "look, we can do that too!"

Which creates this weird situation where there's an almost infinite supply of ideas for new games, and yet every new shooter is just cod, or every new MMO is just WoW. I'm sure you're aware Zerax that it's a problem that's just as frustrating for devs as it is for players lol

tranquil cove
#

yeah they wanted you to scavange items from monsters to improve your gear i bet?

#

my game doesn't have that

round beacon
# tepid wadi Yeah, but for each of those, there's 1000 people who love the fact that they can...

oh i absolutely support your idea. been dreaming about all kidns of this stuff for years aswell, like an actual magic learning system and whatnot, could go on for 24 pages and days on end puttin it all in here - im just sayin sometimes it feels like the market isnt there for the "patientplayer" at least not in a very big scaled way in regards to successrate - which is an absolute shame

tranquil cove
#

maybe once or twice, you can get scales and make scale armor, but not much of that will happen in my game.

#

since my game idea is influence by UO and DND and chivalry/exanima, and for the expedition aspect, oregon trail.

tepid wadi
# finite saffron It's a problem in the industry as a whole (copying what already exists instead o...

Let me pull up my 4 hour long powerpoint presentation about how I want to build an MMO, but I want to build 5ish precursor games where I start with a super small scope and build games that get progressively larger using the mechanics that I want to build for the MMO. And the talk about how I want to use those games to build and test the mechanics that I'm going to use for the MMO and prove that it's a game that players want to play and refine the idea so that it's amazing.

Rather than pitching an MMO from scratch, which is a TERRIBLE idea, I want to pitch the process to build an MMO that starts with a butterfly's wings, if you will.

tranquil cove
#

but skill grind is overall better

#

because at least you can gain that passively just enjoying the game really

tepid wadi
#

Grinding is bad in general because it implies that you have to do something over and over until it stops being fun.

#

You don't "grind" a game like chivalry or helldivers, because you just have fun playing the game

tranquil cove
# tepid wadi Grinding is bad in general because it implies that you have to do something over...

but you saw my idea about how id give quests, basically rarely NPCs would give quests, it would be more like players kill npcs family, and the npc tells a player that this person attacked them and asks for justice etc. NPCs would move around the world, also you could get quests like you are playing MYST, where you observe the world, and perhaps gain a quest that way, because you inspected an object, so more of a mystery type way of getting quests.

finite saffron
# tepid wadi Let me pull up my 4 hour long powerpoint presentation about how I want to build ...

My "if I somehow got unlimited development budget" idea is a big budget roguelite MMO. The only games that have even attempted it have been extremely small/niche/old (like realm of the mad god), but even those found long term success and niche appeal despite their jank.

Roguelites are by far one of the biggest modern genres, and have insane replayability and mass appeal already. Their only real "problem" is that they're all either solo or coop.

I have no market research to point to because nobody is making them, but I strongly believe that roguelite MMOs are a subgenre with huge potential that just nobody has tapped yet. Just a gut feeling I guess, because the ones I've played have shown so much potential, and the problems they have had would be easily fixable with a bigger team (again, like realm of the mad god).

tepid wadi
#

"huge potential that no one has tapped yet" is MMOs in general, these days. Investors too scared to do anything, big companies too bloated to do anything, indies too small to do anything

But all the MMO gamers have good ideas that could be rolled into a good 5-10 super distinct concepts that could co-exist

tranquil cove
#

i think if quests exist at all, they need to be organic, but what forms an MMO is the freedom of player interaction, the players themselves make the game interesting, and a changing world makes the game interesting. (which is something i learned from UO)

finite saffron
tepid wadi
#

I like the idea of taking roguelike gameplay and turning it into a "plan for an adventure" aspect within an MMO. Like it's not actually roguelike, but before you leave town/your house/whatever, you need to decide how you're going to approach your adventure. Are you going to take your mining pick or your logging axe? You only have so much space, etc etc etc.

#

Yeah, many of them are just trying to recreate the past though.

finite saffron
#

I imagine we'll see an MMO creativity explosion in the near future, engines are getting far easier for small teams to create massive open worlds and big player number server infrastructure. It's no longer the technical hurdle it used to be.

tepid wadi
#

Like Pantheon is literally just Everquest, but new.

finite saffron
#

I mean tbh if you count Roblox as a game engine we're already seeing an MMO explosion, there's a lot of them in roblox.

tepid wadi
#

Yeah I mean that's the other thing. MMO monetization 😢 😢

tranquil cove
finite saffron
#

Yeah solo dev mmos are still not very realistic

tepid wadi
finite saffron
#

Never probably lol, our engine wasn't built with that in mind

#

and the game itself

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, obviously I was joking

#

I can't wait for Creative tools though. Someone is gonna make a MMO world with it, I guarantee you that. Or we'll see to-scale middle earth or something.

#

Nah, they won't be able to cram that many people in it, but they'll make it nonetheless

finite saffron
#

The server CPU of whoever tries to host that

latest.png
obtuse scroll
#

reports toast for animal abuse

finite saffron
#

photoshop lol

#

idk where the eyes are from but I've seen them in other cat memes

obtuse scroll
#

reports Toast for photoshop abuse

finite saffron
#

I wish "tibia style" mmos had caught on more, I still love the kiting based combat from the game it was very satisfying

#

I hate the wow style combat where you just stand there and spam buttons, but it's what every MMO is

tepid wadi
#

I mostly just wish that Archeage hadn't borked itself with MTX abuse

finite saffron
#

People hate subs, but then you make it f2p and fill it with MTX and they hate that even more

obtuse scroll
finite saffron
tepid wadi
#

Yeah, ironically I think a subscription MMO with a 'free to try' mechanic and no MTX at all would probably be a big success at this point.

obtuse scroll
#

I don't know. Wildstar was a good f2p game. Unfortunately so many things happened with its studio

tepid wadi
#

People would be like "what a breath of fresh air"

finite saffron
tepid wadi
#

Yeah that doesn't really work because of bots/gold farmers though. You either have to restrict trading entirely or figure out some other way to stop them, which no one has.

#

Yeah, which is why 'free to try' is a fine methodology. It's better to protect your actual players from botting issues than not. Rampant botting and gold selling will kill any MMO that wants to have any sort of economy.

#

Sadly I dont see any publicly traded company having a successful MMO because of that. Greed is a requirement to participate in the stock market.

peak marsh
#

You aren't supposed to be potion chugging your way through every map

#

I think in part they tried to use game design to lead people that way by making crafting time consuming but it just lead people to complain about healing items

tepid wadi
#

Yeah, like I said people are going in with ARPG expectations and having a bad time because of it. Its more survival rpg than arpg

peak marsh
#

Frankly if they leaned into the souls aspects more for healing and made it more of an estus situation it would have been a non issue. Maybe still have food but use it for other buffs instead of healing

#

Even if it was less forgiving than now, I think people would be less upset about it and would generally "get it" more

#

Like "oh, ok I'm not supposed to heal all the time"

tepid wadi
#

Yeah. But they also dont have a bonfire system where you rest to recover right now, so theyd have to change that if you had limited potion charges. Its not a trivial design change.

#

Its kind of a catch 22 of mechanics honestly. With potion charges you also have to balance charge recovery and stuff, which also isnt trivial

#

Both systems have clear upsides and downsides.

peak marsh
#

Oh sure, I'm only speaking in hypotheticals. Like if they had done that and used campfires for refills, it would have been more of a "oh, it's that kind of game" situation where I think having items for healing is giving people more of that ARPG vibe

tepid wadi
#

Yeah thats fair. I applaud them for kinda doing their own thing though. At least its unique

tranquil cove
#

one game solved this problem by making the main character a vampire

#

so you just eat your health as you go

#

lol

frank sonnet
tranquil cove
#

v rising

#

but probably any vampire game works

frank sonnet
#

i like path of exiles health system

2053171.JPG
tepid wadi
#

Thing I've never liked about poe's health system is that past a certain point you only have effectively 1 health.

Either something kills you instantly or it isnt a threat. There is no in between.

peak marsh
#

Yeah but V Rising is a very different kind of experience. Much more fast paced than NRFTW

#

Also a lot more survival focused

#

Still easily in my top 5 current games though

peak marsh
#

But for the most part in POE you don't really have health, you deal damage to replenish your health and your actual health is determined by your damage and resistances

#

Like, maybe it exists and I'm just not in deep enough to find it but IDK any builds that can survive in maps without some kind of life/shield replenish on hit

#

And the whole time your HP orb is bouncing up and down like a yo-yo

#

or an excitable pug

tepid wadi
#

Yeah thats part of what I mean. Either your defenses (including leech, regen, whatever) are good enough to completely outpace/ignore the incoming damage and its no threat at all... or its not and you die near-instantly

#

The goal of a build's defenses is to minimize the amount of times that happens.

peak marsh
#

That and how good your flasks are so the whole time you're spamming attacks you're also facerolling 1 - 5

tranquil cove
#

the concept of health bars or bowls is wierd to me

#

and it's always some japanese inflated value, like your character has 900 health

#

and the monster has 100,000,000k

#

and you're doing 50k crits

#

the whole thing is arcade, i never liked it, if you get hit, you die, makes the most sense for the player, and the monster.

peak marsh
tranquil cove
#

everyone is glass

#

thats why my game idea has arms, legs, torso, head, 5 hit spots, 3 strikes each, it means you could theoretically get hit 4 times and die, or 16 times.

peak marsh
#

I think Bushido Blade beat you to it

tranquil cove
#

and then also the monsters the same, a few hits, it dies

peak marsh
#

Had a system where literally you could disable arms and legs, or get a critical torso or head shot and end the fight in 1 hit

#

Problem is while it's more realistic, it's a lot more player unfriendly and generally doesn't translate well

tranquil cove
#

yeah the difference is i want this system in an RPG/MMO

tranquil cove
#

in my head it works well

tepid wadi
peak marsh
#

It's also a lot harder from a design perspective, you can't really convey growth if your character can die at level 50 in the same number of hits as they could at level 7

tranquil cove
#

i dont want growth

#

its not a level or gear progression game

peak marsh
#

Right, but that's the problem, players do xD

tranquil cove
#

nah f them

peak marsh
#

Mortal Online tried a system like that

tranquil cove
#

players don't want growth either

#

otherwise theyd go play the trashy mmos

#

that have low numbers today

peak marsh
#

Nah, turns out they actually do. MMOs are tanking because they haven't innovated in like 20 years

tranquil cove
#

im not building an mmo model based on what i think players want or what you think they want

#

i'm breaking the model

#

and doing something new

peak marsh
#

Yeah that's what Mortal Online did xD

tranquil cove
#

mortal online isnt my idea 100%

#

you can keep listing games saying they did what i want

#

but they will fall short somewhere

#

since they aren't me and its not my idea

#

it's just 1 facet of my idea

#

and i dont have time to research all these trashy games to prove my point

#

never heard of them before

peak marsh
#

I'm just saying, brutally realistic hardcore MMOs have been tried and they go over like lead balloons with the broader player base

tranquil cove
#

my game isn't meant to be punishing or brutally realistic

#

it will be relatively easy

peak marsh
#

Ooh, another MMO design trap xD

tranquil cove
#

?

#

there's no such thing as brutally realistic, there is realistic and not realistic, brutal comes into play with implementation

peak marsh
#

MMOs are really hard because they can't be too hard nor too easy. Otherwise you'll attract some players, but not enough to keep one of the Ms in that abbreviation

tranquil cove
#

if your implementation of a mechanic is trash, then its brutally realistic.

#

if your implrementation is good, then beautifully realistic.

#

or simply realistic

peak marsh
#

Alright, give me the elevator pitch. Meaning, you have the time it takes to ride an elevator to sell me your idea

tranquil cove
timber prism
tranquil cove
peak marsh
#

Pretend I am

tranquil cove
#

i don't need the time of an elevator, if i did then my idea is probably not good because im desperate to sell it in 5 minutes lol

peak marsh
#

If the idea is good, you can be short and concise and sell the idea to people

tranquil cove
#

if i have confidence in my idea, i will ask for proper time to sell it, or find an investor who will give me proper listening time.

#

yeah but either way, 2 minutes in a elevator is not it, and at least there i can speak the idea, here typing takes forever.

peak marsh
#

That's why "elevator pitch" is a common design term, you should be able to describe your game in the time it takes to ride an elevator, or in about a paragraph

#

And convey what it is and what it's trying to do

#

To put it another way, what's the Steam description

tranquil cove
#

my game is inspired from UO 6,7,8 and ultima ascension, and ultima online, chivalry/exanima, DND and oregon trail, with some MYST elements.

round beacon
#

"its awesome - because i made it from stuff everyone else stole from me even though all i did was take inspiration from everyone else"

peak marsh
#

I mean, you can't describe your game by just listing other games xD You need a clearer vision than that

timber prism
peak marsh
#

Like if you get on the Seikro Steam page it doesn't say "Dark Souls but parries" xD

tranquil cove
#

i wasnt describing my game, i was listing the games that have elements of some of my ideas, and how i want these elements combined.

round beacon
#

"their ideas"

timber prism
#

You described your game before

tranquil cove
#

so scroll up and read it

timber prism
#

I did

#

And its awful

tranquil cove
#

i described parts of how my game will work like 5 times

timber prism
#

But yeah for everyone else. He already posted it

tranquil cove
timber prism
#

Days ago

#

I have never review bombed a game ever

tranquil cove
#

yeah days, weeks, even last year, i cant be asked to repeat it on demand.

tranquil cove
#

because it's mine

timber prism
#

I actually have never reviewed a game ever

#

Your post is not even a game. Your idea of the game is awful tho

#

Especially as a mmo

peak marsh
round beacon
#

Cant review bomb something that doesnt even exist in theory

tranquil cove
#

y'all are wasting my time, go hate on something meaningful.

tranquil cove
timber prism
peak marsh
timber prism
#

It really is but as the creator of said idea I understand why you think it would work

tranquil cove
#

there is objectively nothing wrong with the concept of my game

#

and if implementation was done well, with good lore etc. it would be a good game

#

and world building

#

and QOL is something i am highly aware of too, so it's not like it would be a quality of life nightmare.

round beacon
#

You miss the point of fair critisism against hate. you arent important enough for hate. but its fair to be critical of someone who constantly claims people have stolen their ideas, whilst all you do is simply put OTHER games ideas up as the things you want to do.

timber prism
#

Hitting specific body parts would work in a fighting game hence bushifo blade but having 100v100 with people swinging would be absolutely terrible

tranquil cove
#

i think i just need to ignore cross and ticonz, they make everything so personal

#

like lighten up dudes

timber prism
#

You are taking it personal

#

I just think its an awful idea

tranquil cove
#

he said and she said

round beacon
#

where is this personal? just because you dont like realism doesnt mean its personal^^

tranquil cove
#

i think it's not an awful idea

#

now what?

#

you are vague

#

and personal

#

and its getting old

timber prism
#

I'm not vague. I just told you specifically why that idea is awful

tranquil cove
timber prism
#

Chivalry as a massive mmo would be awful yeah

round beacon
#

already told you multiple times whats the problem. your narcisitic approach and your constant claiming of facts that are simply proven wrong. your normal peptalks about games and stuff is fine. i simply dislike people who claim stuff that is untrue

tranquil cove
tranquil cove
#

im not reading

#

unless you say something normal

round beacon
#

im not attacking your charakter, im simply holding you a mirror.

tranquil cove
#

nah you are assuming things

timber prism
#

Change that to 100v100

round beacon
#

no. im not assuming anything, im simply stating what you yourself said^^

tranquil cove
#

they are just constantly fighting?

timber prism
#

Yeah. That is exactly how pvp works

#

Yes

peak marsh
#

Cyrodil in ESO works that way

timber prism
#

Archeage

round beacon
#

GW2

tranquil cove
#

you're still very vague about why it wont work

#

just that "it wont"

timber prism
#

Everyone swinging at the same time

#

Aiming at parts

tranquil cove
#

yeah and? you can stack damage in literally every game

round beacon
#

alone the entire collision maths would instantly burn your server lol

timber prism
#

Calculating said parts

#

Collision

tranquil cove
#

plus i never detailed the full combat system

#

i thought it was 2025 and we could design advanced games now?

timber prism
#

You did. Yoy said at first armor goes then you take direct damage would be realistic so not a lot of hits

round beacon
#

also, did you consider server lags? connection issues? paket loss?

tranquil cove
#

i gave a general idea not a detailed idea of how it works in group fighting

timber prism
#

Imagine calculating all of this... games struggle just to calculate damage in general and not parts on a full scale level

tranquil cove
#

plus im not a programmer, id have to talk to a programmer first

round beacon
#

and that programmer will tell you "no, wont work"

tranquil cove
#

no, they will say the limitations and things to consider and ill adjust the idea

#

thats how game dev works

#

your criticizing a game concept like its the final form

#

sad you hate me this much

timber prism
#

....

round beacon
#

i dont give two things about you mate, im still just tryin to be realistic with you.

tranquil cove
#

your dislike for me is like oozing all over, in everything you guys write

#

just go away

peak marsh
#

It potentially could if the game was PVE focused, but then you're losing players who want a sense of progression, because that's what drives you to keep farming mobs, unless it's very very skill based and maybe you could get some of the fighting game crowd. But IDK if that's the crowd to stick around in an MMO

tranquil cove
#

except for rhoisaad who is being impartial and zerax, who are the two people i was talking to anyway

timber prism
#

Stop crying breh XD

#

I literally talk to you all the time

tranquil cove
#

you literally complain about me all the time

#

and make it personal

timber prism
#

You are taking it personal

frank sonnet
#

Has Valourant always been like this? I've only been part of this sever for like a year

tranquil cove
#

im taking it the way it is

timber prism
#

Yes. He has

#

And its fine. Its who he is

tranquil cove
#

see y'all keep talking about me

#

cant just stick to ideas

round beacon
#

mate. these two are very kind and very humble and very diplomatic, i get it, but if you cant cope with backlash on this rather harmless level, you wont get ANYwhere, because the REAL buisness out there is harsh, unforgiving and brutal, so you better grow a spine or you can kiss your game dream bye bye way before it even began. just sayin

tranquil cove
#

anyway, i dont think there is valid criticism here, a simulation MMO, or coop (no pvp perhaps better) would still work pretty well depending on how well it was coded, how movement is, how you block strikes, if there is dodge rolling etc. how stamina works, lots of things to consider, to just say its trash and wont be good isn't a fair assessment.

timber prism
tranquil cove
#

it could work perfectly well in group fighting

timber prism
#

And that had pvp

#

I love that game btw

tranquil cove
#

id have to try the absolver game and then i could tell you why it didn't work

peak marsh
timber prism
#

Skill based focus

#

Not really levelingnup

#

You gained skills

peak marsh
#

Also props to that studio for keeping Absolver going for the 17 players who are still into it xD

timber prism
#

And made your own fighting styles

peak marsh
#

I hop on from time to time, it's just a great idea it's just somehow lacking in implementation

timber prism
#

And yeah you had health bars bc fighting game

peak marsh
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But I get what you mean as far as being skill based

timber prism
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I think the closest thing that exists to Vals idea is a fighting gsme that is the successor to bushido blade

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But absolver was like a pve open world version of a fighter that tried to draw the fighter crowd in

tranquil cove
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its more like my game has health for each armor piece, which then gets broken, realistically only surviving 3 hits until it breaks. then you take 2 more hits to that body part usually and it's disabled.

peak marsh
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So almost like a cross up of Fighting Vipers and Bushido Blade. I mean, that's honestly kind of interesting as a concept

tranquil cove
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so for a head it would kill you after 4 hits, torso 5, arms and legs 5, it just means you would limp. and be less effective at using your hands if you get injured like that.

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until you heal

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in 100vs 100 everyone has the same threat, no special gear, to give you an edge over anyone else, no levels.

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it would work better than most level based pvp games

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or gear based.

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already.

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but again it depends how well the swings, and defenses/movement is implemented and coded. and the hitboxes.

round beacon
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Still would assume this could put a whole lot of stress on systems on a larger scale, because theres a shitload of collision to compute. im NOT sayin its a dumb idea. its just technically very hard to pull of on that level of detail

tranquil cove
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it also depends what kind of magic the world has and how thats implemented into combat

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i wanted my game to have limited magical armors

round beacon
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And you have to put things like fps differences into account, connection stability and whatnot else.

tranquil cove
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but maybe players themselves could cast more complex magic as offensive/defensive spells.

peak marsh
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You'd also have to have multiple swing types/trajectories for each weapon so you could say, target the right leg or the left arm repeatedly

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Cause with a system like that focusing on a single area would be the best strategy

tranquil cove
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i never thought of my game in pvp terms though, was usually thinking about it vs mobs, and never fleshed out any detail

round beacon
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would assume with a system like that people would bombard you about pvp

tranquil cove
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like do i want bleeding mechanic? armor on left arm broke, arm got cut/broken, you can still use it very inffectively, but do i want a bleeding mechanic that threatens the characters life? if they dont patch it up they become unconscious etc.

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probably a quick bandage to patch bleeding, makes the arm moveable again, or something. and stops the bleeding mechanic

peak marsh
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Even with mobs, you'd want to be able to disable certain mobs quickly depending on how they attack, how many are in a group, etc. Like, for a single heavy hitting brawler type you'd want to go for arms to reduce attacks, while for smaller enemies in groups you'd maybe want to be able to target legs for crowd control because if everyone is limping it's a lot easier to evade, etc

tranquil cove
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in ultima online all that happened was you got ganked by 8 players vs 1, and then they said you suck at the game, as they res killed you.

round beacon
tranquil cove
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the difference is at least its not level based. where the 8 players are level 60, and you are level 20, and have zero chance in hell.

timber prism
tranquil cove
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eh well maybe its an idea for 40 years from now lol

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or maybe it fits better as an 8 player coop

timber prism
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I would win 1v3-5 all the time

tranquil cove
timber prism
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I'm just talking pvp mmo in general

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Not your specific system

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For large scale pvp, raid calling goes a long way to win vs numbers but it would work on your game just because how more complex it is

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Imagine telling people to focus x targets body part vs just hitting them XD

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I also realized I said AOC.. I'm referring to Age of Conan... not Ashes of Creation XD

peak marsh
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We're swiftly running out of abbreviations xD

tranquil cove
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i think the gameplay is important and mechanics, but my game ideally if i ever made it, it's main selling point would the world building and lore, so basically even pvpers who like the pvp system in the game might be divided from pvping and exploring/experiencing the world because the feeling of the game itself being magical would be there, like it was for oregon trail and Myst, and Ultima IX: Ascension. so there is more too it than just not being level or gear based or having chivalry physics based combat.

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sort of like how in skyrim the point isnt combat but just exploring too, its the main draw

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the combat is just something that keeps you able to explore

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the game itself will be designed in a way that 100 players probably wont be fighting 100 players

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they will be forming coop groups to explore

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becuase its easier to survive that way

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if 100 players have to fight 100 players, you have a boring ass game imo

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and even that 100 vs 100 will get old fast

tepid wadi
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Guild Wars 2 WvW kind of solved this problem, actually

tranquil cove
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but you also have a game that enabled that in the community, because there is no detriment to everyone fighting, and its actually encouraged.

tepid wadi
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Big PvP battles, but lots of objectives, so it was more efficient to break your giant zerg into smaller bits to take more capture points and stuff

timber prism
timber prism
tranquil cove
timber prism
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Its why GW2 was known as door to door pvp

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Bc it was way too small and you could hit one base from another

tranquil cove
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if i added pvp i'd probably add the notoriety system from UO in it