other-games

[tranquil cove]

that was the whole premise of ultima online, it was a social sandbox

when pvpers were attacking me and ruining my fun

i made a 200 player guild

and had legions defending me

and my assets

i made my own safety

whenever you had pk guilds going too far on the server

a few people would band together to fight them and diminish their effects on the new players

you had guilds protecting new players etc.

a new player would logon, and these guilds would give them resources and starter packs

that's a true social sandbox

[timber prism]

Okay and? Its still a narrow minded view of thinking hard-core pvpers don't also want pve housing

[tranquil cove]

yeah but they made housing all about pvp with this 1 statement

Pax dei - We believe even the hardcore PvPers deserve a resting place in the world to regroup and gather forces in preparation for the next battle.

[timber prism]

Which is true

The devs believe that people need a place where they can't get griefed to build resources for war

I don't understand the issue

Its a system they probably want so one guild doesn't take over the whole server

[tranquil cove]

they didn't say: We are a PVE, RP/PVP game, a social sandbox, so we have safe zone housing. that's the way to word it if you're not focused on PVP, they made housing all about PVP and if you do that I will crap all over you because PVP has nothing to do with safe zone housing.

they made it about PVP, not me.

they ignored the other facets of their own game

when a game has a little bit of everything it makes sense to have safe zone housing

when a game has different play style it makes sense

when you then say housing is this way strictly for PVP, you make it about PVP

[timber prism]

So your issue is with how they worded it... not the actual system?

[tranquil cove]

the system is there, but the intention is clear, they care more about PVP than anything else lol

[timber prism]

????

[tranquil cove]

yeah in most games you have a bank for that, or a city, which is safe zoned, outside the city anyone can attack you and you can die.

housing is more personal

[timber prism]

Yes and that home is also in a safe zone so what is the issue?

[tranquil cove]

it's a place to feel safe, to store your loot... to decorate, it has more intentions than only PVP, but they worded it like it's only for PVP

[timber prism]

Disagree

[tranquil cove]

well just scroll up and read

i wrote too much on the topic already

9/10 times the hard part in a PVP game

has nothing to do with finding a place to be safe and store your loot

i was safe in a full loot, house loot games, my homes were 100% safe once i was through the door and as long as I wasn't AFK in my house.

the hard part in a PVP game is doing a dungeon run without 25 Player killers who are constantly camping the dungeon and jumping on you at all once, you can't get the loot to bring home.

i needed to bring 10 guild with me, or otherwise logon at 2am to do a run

so i could have supplies the next day, the whole safe house system is a joke when it's worded for PVP

don't say your game is a social sandbox, with PVE, RP elements and PVP, and then word the whole reason for housing as PVP centered only.

PVPers who can't have their home lootable, i don't even get the point, the point of housing for PVP strictly was that you could steal another guys home and then show off all his decoration you stole in your own house. with the risk that people might try and steal all your loot inside if you decorate it really well... the most valuable stuff you kept in your bank account with limited storage.

[candid quiver]

Look, i dont like the pax dei ideas.
But they have not worded it like you say atleast, not from the first months on their discord long ago, and not now.

You also muddle up actual critiscisms against it in odd messy mixup statements imo.

[tepid wadi]

They actually have a very detailed post about what pax dei is and isnt. https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1995520/view/6191967063109611480

Whether or not you like how they're doing it is up to you, but they're pretty clear on their intent.

[candid quiver]

Yes, i say nope ^^

But no need to make things up atleast for sure

[tepid wadi]

I'm also on the fence for a lot of it. But I think it COULD eventually become my type of game.

But they're definitely not advertising it has a hardcore full loot pvp mmo

[candid quiver]

I just feel it might not get to what they describe, and that the current community made me have a meh taste, and since its supposed to lean on clans and not singleplayer its not my teacup

Its so.. barren - and i dont trust other players to help make it feel fun ^^

[tepid wadi]

Yeah. Like a lot of current early access releases, it feels like it has potential and I'm happy to give it some time to mature and see how it goes

I agree that barren is a good way to describe the current state.

[tranquil cove]

i copy and pasted this from them,

they worded it the way i said.

it's very bad wording.

hinting the game and the whole reason for 'safe' housing is PVP focused.

they have a PVE and RP game, they didn't need to state 'safe' housing is for pvp only reasons, the fact that their game is PVE and presumably welcomes RP is the BIGGER reason to have safe housing, but also it's reason enough.

[candid quiver]

You add and paraphrase

I am going by what they are actually talking about on their discord and steam

[tranquil cove]

i only deal with specific claims, not vague statements

[tepid wadi]

Sure but you're basing your entire opinion off of a one sentence summary. For a game of that scope, thats bound to be at least somewhat inaccurate

[candid quiver]

Instead of mixtrapolate from a googled headline

You are being ultra vague

[tranquil cove]

it's on their website, it's the first thing you see in their FAQ under building

[tranquil cove]

i can't be vague when i copy and pasted from their site

[candid quiver]

And you often colour your statements with alot of personal assumptions

[tepid wadi]

They're very specific about it being a pvpve social sandbox. Pvp is obviously important there but not the only consideration

[tranquil cove]

i gave my sources, i don't know what else

[tranquil cove]

welp they should have worded it differently

[candid quiver]

You have 99% less information on it then i have imo

[tranquil cove]

all im saying is based on how they worded it, it's the poorest reason for safe zone housing imo

[candid quiver]

Its not a 'source' per se

[tranquil cove]

and if PVP is the only consideration, you actually want house looting as an option

[candid quiver]

You are adding your own bias unto a loose sentence, come on

Please bash it correctly

[tepid wadi]

Well, the headline is supposed to draw you in. If it immediately turns you off, then the game isnt likely for you, and thats okay

Also I tend to give some grace to specific wording. Not everyone has English as their primary language

[tranquil cove]

i've played PVP games with full house looting, stealing in towns, full loot when you die, exceptional levels of griefing, stalking, harassment. and i can tell you the problem in these games was never "damn i have nowhere to store my stuff safely." i had tons of loot that remained safe for 5 years of playing. the issue was always when you need to bring loot in, you run into 20+ player killers who will attack you making it impossible for a solo player to farm anything - let alone to store it safely.

[timber prism]

This is the exact reason why I found their takes on the whole take being weird

[tepid wadi]

I mean, they're targeting a pretty niche market 🤷‍♀️

[candid quiver]

Their takes are not based on alot of actual knowledge about it

[tranquil cove]

intent is formed by language, i'd argue the intent obviously indicates heavy focus on PVP, and PVE is just there so PVPers can gear up to kill each other, the same way 'safe houses' are for the same reason?

[candid quiver]

I mean valourants takes

[tranquil cove]

this is true, i didn't play the game, i am reading intent lol

[candid quiver]

Like chatgpt, take a prompt and hallucinate up something depending on unrelated comments youve memorized..

[finite saffron]

I'm just amused that the devs called their blog post a "manifesto" at the end lol

[candid quiver]

Lol ^^

[timber prism]

Manifesto sounds important

[candid quiver]

They will most likely get very realmoney squeezie i think, its the vibe underneath their monetization vagueness

[finite saffron]

Doing a quick skim of their page it's a social sandbox MMO with high fidelity graphics, which is... Insanely ambitious tbh. There are a lot of multi-million dollar projects with the same description that failed miserably, crowfall comes to mind

[timber prism]

Rip crowfall

[tranquil cove]

lol yes

[finite saffron]

It doesn't seem like a scam project to me, their studio has a lot of big names behind it and looks like 8 figure amounts of investor backing. It's just an insanely ambitious type of game

[tranquil cove]

that's why im saying its another UO clone trying to do the glory days of PVP but it will die in 3 years

i was specifically thinking of crowfall

[timber prism]

I remember buying a castle for $250 and not selling it when I got a $1500 offer XD

[finite saffron]

and they're honestly still a fairly small studio to be attempting a social sandbox MMO, the only games that have really pulled that off are EVE and Albion, both of which have way less development intensive graphic styles/mechanics.

[tranquil cove]

there was another one? darkfall or something

[candid quiver]

I dont think they will acam per se - but i dont think they will manage to get to what they envision to the players

[finite saffron]

I can't think of a single sandbox MMO that has gotten what they envisioned to their players lol

[candid quiver]

So im sceptical, also with how their former employers are doing things

[finite saffron]

I mean some of them ended up as good games, but still not everything that was promised

[candid quiver]

Which are very close

[tranquil cove]

social sandbox is basically playing into the ultima fans, or it's basically a fantasy GTA5, which could work if it's done more in that spirit

[candid quiver]

I think they wont deliver enough content and will dry out on money and their token money speculations might derail,

[tranquil cove]

does pax dei have a karma system?

[finite saffron]

A lot of people want a social sandbox MMO that's not extremely janky, which is why there's like 15 of them being hyped right now

[candid quiver]

It also needs social people to play it

Can be filled with antisocial players, and their discord kinda gave me that feel

[finite saffron]

Ones that immediately come to mind from massive budget studios, Dune: Awakening, Ashes of Creation, Star Citizen (lol), and probably others I'm sure. And then Eve and Albion obviously but those are already on the market

[candid quiver]

Will they get the players they need to make it work, and the content and systems in place that is needed, its unclear

[finite saffron]

and Star Citizen doesn't count because it will never actually release

[tranquil cove]

i never liked eve

[candid quiver]

I never liked mmos ^^

[tepid wadi]

I think it's more styled like an extraction game. The PvP area is a separate area where it's PvP enabled, then the "home" maps are PvE only zones.

[tranquil cove]

last MMO i really enjoyed was dungeons and dragons online, because you needed a character of each class to complete dungeons, you needed a thief and mage usually.

[tepid wadi]

I think the problem I foresee is that you need mechanics to make you WANT to interact with other players. Right now, if I have a guild of 10+ people, we never need/want to engage with other players except for PVP

[tranquil cove]

it felt so cooperative, more coop than any game i ever played since

[candid quiver]

Pax dei also lacks.. enemies atm to a degree

So the pve is..

[finite saffron]

The extraction game (especially shooter) market flood is coming, prepare yourselves

[candid quiver]

shrugs

[finite saffron]

https://tenor.com/view/here-it-comes-tornado-meme-gif-23054073

[tranquil cove]

fps games need procedurally generated maps to become truly skill based

otherwise it's 90% map memorization

[candid quiver]

@finite saffron Atm its survival crafting games, soulslikes and metroidvanias that are flooding Toast ^^

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, but procedurally generated maps also need to get WAY better before they're very meaningful.

[tranquil cove]

90% map, 10% silly sound system that telegraphs steps outside from 20 meters away

i don't know about you, but i can't hear peoples footsteps from 20 meters away while outside in a warzone

[candid quiver]

Procgen needs minecraft amount of years to get a huge pool of it to create variation

[finite saffron]

I get the impression the only shooters you've played are tacfps lol

[tranquil cove]

whats tacfps

[finite saffron]

csgo, valorant, rainbow 6, those kinda slower paced shooters

but not milsims like squad and stuff which are even slower paced

[candid quiver]

I never seen CS players tactically slow tbh, they just rush de_dust 5000 times in a day? ^^

[tranquil cove]

i've played csgo, and insurgency

[finite saffron]

Yeah CS players are the definition of insanity

I swear there's probably people with 10000+ hours on just Dust_2

[candid quiver]

Ive seen de_dust on screens my whole life

Errywhere i go

^^

[tranquil cove]

but a lot of these games you can maintain 1 sniper line and get 10 kills

or you can rocket to a spot where people just spawned and they run out into your rocket

and get 5 kills instantly

[candid quiver]

...

[tranquil cove]

all map memorization stuff

when levels become more random, people will have to rely more on things in the moment and reaction time, and aim etc.

[dusk bluff]

I mean there is warzone. Random spawns and a huge open map

You can't just shoot a rocket into a spawn. You can sit and snipe from a spot but you can easily be snuck up on or out sniped.

I used to play but it's too sweaty for me now.

[tepid wadi]

The thing I hate about BR games is dying to a sniper I never saw before I can react. Makes me quit every time.

[finite saffron]

I love collecting loot for 10 minutes straight and then getting one shot by someone with 15000 hours in the game

[candid quiver]

I played all UT games, dont like fps games otherwise ^^

[finite saffron]

I've just accepted that battle royales aren't for me lol, I've never understood the appeal. Every time I play apex for example I am always just thinking "man I wish respawn had made titanfall 3 instead"

[candid quiver]

Or wand/staffs in enshrouded, that makes it a 3rd'ps ^^

[tepid wadi]

The PUBG experience. That's kinda why I like Apex, there's fast fights all the time and it feels more... actiony than slow and methodical.

[mild rampart]

i love you guys 😄

[tepid wadi]

UT2004 was my jam. I really loved the Onslaught mode and have no idea why it's completely disappeared from modern FPS games

[candid quiver]

Its so bizare that epic decided to stove away and hide UT..

Would have been neat with a proper UT for UE5,
tho they got all fortnite while they where gonna let UT4 be developed along with the community =/

But why hide all of UT like its a shameful secret? its not like it would impact fortnite sales

smh

[finite saffron]

There's a chance 1% of their players might accidentally click the icon, which is probably like a billion dollars of revenue

[candid quiver]

lol ^^

solved

[tepid wadi]

Honestly probably because they want to be a platform company not a game company, and the bigger their game portfolio is, the more they seem like a dev studio

[candid quiver]

UT showed off newest UE better then fortnite tho smh

[tepid wadi]

UT used to be like a "Look what our engine could do!" game, and now they use fornite for that 🤷‍♀️

[finite saffron]

I mean even the other version of fortnite is basically hidden at this point isn't it? Fortnite save the world. Seems like they want all their eyes on the main money maker lol

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, you REALLY have to search for Save the World. Which is a shame because it's a really good, creative new game.

[candid quiver]

But fortnite has a graphical style that doesnt really show new fancy UE features in the best way

fortnite is kinda stuck in cartoon'ish style so it doesnt really make lumen/nanite, real grfx pop

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, but it also doesn't have the performance issues that every big visual UE5 game has

[candid quiver]

Not all does; and a UT from epic wouldnt ^^

Its usually new teams trying out the new UE5 features and forget to scale properly imo

[finite saffron]

They make not very much money on UE5 tbh, I think every studio that would make them money already knows about it, and players don't really care

[timber prism]

The whole idea behind it being a game not real life

[tepid wadi]

Nothing makes much money compared to the vbucks Fortnite brings in 😝

[finite saffron]

Yeah I mean UE5 makes a lot of money, but it's completely dwarfed by everything else they do lol

[candid quiver]

I just want the UT games back.
Luckily i have backups of unreal, ut, ut2003/2004/UT3 and UT4 alpha but.. 😦

but i dont like any other fps at all, weirdly

[timber prism]

I remember playing UT in my dreamcast

Such a great game

[candid quiver]

not a fps fan outside of my love for UE and UT since unreal singleplayer adventure ^^

[tepid wadi]

The UT games definitely had a unique feel to them

[candid quiver]

An unreal 3 singeplayer adventure in UE5 would be cool

maybe should look into it when im done with all TU maps i make

to make something similar would be a dream ^^

[finite saffron]

What kind of movement did UT have, was it strafe jumping?

There's definitely been some amazing singleplayer movement shooters in the past few years

[candid quiver]

Very fast and tight movement, less floatie then quake 3 but very fast in its own way

strafe, jumping, doublejumping

good air control

[tepid wadi]

UT2004 also had a good array of vehicles

[finite saffron]

Ah okay, I played Q3/live but never played much UT

[tepid wadi]

Lots of different guns that acted way differently than each other

[candid quiver]

UT vs Q3 used to be a flamewar back in the day :p

(not by me ofc.. angel)

Since UT was best i didnt need to fight over Q3 vs UT :p

[finite saffron]

Ultrakills movement is 🧑‍🍳 💋, definitely recommend checking out that game if you haven't

singleplayer tho

[candid quiver]

Also unrealedit was awesome for making maps, i did some maps for UT99 and for a mod for UT3 called codamod ❤️
before i started making TU maps instead ^^

[tranquil cove]

yeah they made it arcade/gamey because if it worked like real sound does you'd never hear anyone coming until it's too late.

[candid quiver]

My first UT (99) map was fun, but very badly optimized - it lagged on my old computer cus i love using dynamic light sources TOO much ^^

[finite saffron]

If they made it like real life you'd sit in base camp for 3 months straight burning garbage and then go home with a "not caused by service" lung condition

war is quite boring IRL, hence why games spruce things up quite a bit lol

[candid quiver]

Realistic shouldnt be fully achieved cus its NOT fun anymore, nor a game.
Realistic Enshrouded; wakes up. wtf.. dies within 2 days from a bunch of diseases there is no vaccine or cure for. done.

[tranquil cove]

there's no point to war games for me that work off individual rules because then skill becomes about how fast you learn those rules, you essentially end up not skilled, but just understanding how to use the way this specific game uses sound, to your advantage.

whereas if it was based off real life, everyone would already be at the same level on how sound works, or whatever

we'd know we can't hear someone walking behind a wall

[timber prism]

????

[tranquil cove]

it the same concept for university

[timber prism]

What would be the point of sound if you couldn't hear anything?

[tranquil cove]

are you smart, or did you learn how to study, take a test well, and organize well? and plan your time

[candid quiver]

....

[tranquil cove]

9/10 times good students are good becuase they learned how to be good students

not because they are genius level at the material

[candid quiver]

You make so many confidently incorrect statements

like, there is no room for uncertainty, you know errything ^^

"this is like this."

[tranquil cove]

there was room for uncertainty, 1/10 times

[candid quiver]

Yeah you know exactly the ratio as you know exactly how everything else in the world is.

[tepid wadi]

Does this mean... you want every game to have the same rule set?

I don't understand

[tranquil cove]

i just want games not to gimmick sound, for no reason, i see no advantage, it would be fun and work well if sound was realistic

[candid quiver]

"i think, maybe, it might be, consider.." are good words to use when you are just spewing out guesses ^^

smh

[tranquil cove]

it might even be better imo

[timber prism]

You see no advantage to be able to accurately know where someone is coming from due to their footsteps?

[tepid wadi]

The advantage, usually, is that it makes for a better, more interesting, more skill based game. Because people can use sound to their advantage in a few different ways.

It's not just "I can hear you around a corner". There's a ton of other aspects to it.

[finite saffron]

I'm gonna make a blind fps game where you can only find each other via footsteps

[tranquil cove]

you can use sound to your advantage in real life too, just not in 100% of scenarios

[tepid wadi]

Sure, but that's the same in games.

[timber prism]

It works for fighting games It could work for a shooter XD

[tepid wadi]

You can't listen your way to a sniper's position, for an easy example

Until they fire shots. Then, you can use your skill to start to find them.

It's not rocket science, but it's definitely skill based.

[tranquil cove]

usually its 3 shots and the sniper should move

or they will probably be found out

in real life

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, which is because people can hear them and find their position

[timber prism]

???

[tepid wadi]

Bad snipers won't move and will get killed

Just like bad listeners won't triangulate a rough estimate of where a sniper is and will get sniped on the second or third shot.

The whole thing is a game of skill and using the tools at your disposal. Could you create a completely silent game? Sure, but most games don't do that for a reason.

[finite saffron]

good snipers will do a 360 out of their nest and quickscope you

[timber prism]

The best will just no scope you

[tepid wadi]

Your de_dust is leaking

[finite saffron]

more like my cod4 rust

oh wait that was mw2 I'm a fake fan smh

actually looking online I have no idea which game it was it's been in like 8 cods apparently

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, Rust is one of the more popular cod maps. I feel like MW2 was one of the first that it came out in though.

Maybe Modern Warfare the original, I dunno

[tranquil cove]

my issue is you shouldnt be able to hear footsteps through walls, or on carpet that well, or in outside maps... i'd prefer it if sound physics in games acted like real life. then i'd already know how to read sound and what it means when i hear something.

vs having to learn sound in the game for each individual game

then it becomes about who learned sound the best

[finite saffron]

I mean you can definitely hear footsteps through walls in real life just ask my upstairs neighbors

[timber prism]

???

[tranquil cove]

i can't hear people walking in the hallway outside my friends apartment

you can't even hear the elevator open

[timber prism]

Must be rich having sound proofed your whole house.

[tranquil cove]

you can hear thuds from a floor above

not walking though

like if someone moves furniture

unless it's a creaky old floor you wont be hearing much

even then you hear creaks, not individual footsteps

[timber prism]

How often do you have people running around in full gear not making noise around you?

[tranquil cove]

if there gonna gimmick sounds in games, they might as well put the sound on the mini map

so i can see a graphic that sound happened in that location

lol

this way everyone is on equal footing

[timber prism]

....

[tepid wadi]

Some games do that, actually.

[tranquil cove]

otherwise make sound realistic

[tepid wadi]

There are a lot of hearing-impared accessibility options.

[candid quiver]

Val keeps using smol anecdotes to speak 'truthts' that are just very narrow...

[tepid wadi]

Example: Fortnite has an actual option that will tell you the direction of gunshots and stuff on your screen.

[tranquil cove]

ticonz are you a pvper? because the whole everyone is equal before they PVP is a huge hardcore pvping thing from some of the most hard core pvp games

[tepid wadi]

And you can add subtitles too

[timber prism]

Bruh i have been pvping for over 30 years

Competitively

[tranquil cove]

competitively means buying bigger resolution and best mouse lol

to get the tiniest edge

man if i did pvp competitions everyone would use same hardware too

[timber prism]

You literally have the weirdest takes

[candid quiver]

No room to discuss since Valourant has amassed knowledge of how things are for everyone from their anecdotal resorvoir of experiences, projected unto erryone

smh

[mild rampart]

ha

[timber prism]

It just sounds like old man takes to me

[mild rampart]

not even old Ive seen my sons friends talk like that

[finite saffron]

every time people say you need the best hardware to win I just think back to that guy who set a score record in osu in his bed with a pillow as a mousepad for his 5 dollar mouse lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZpQkDooNqw

[tranquil cove]

it's a thing though, there is a space shooting game, where people use bigger resolutions to see further on the screen so they can react sooner when someone appears on the screen and kill them.

so effectively in pvp they gain an edge with larger resolutions

forcing everyone who wants to remain competitive to increase resolutions too

[timber prism]

Yeah. The whole better hardware thing is such a bad take

[candid quiver]

The viewport doesnt work like that for all games

[tranquil cove]

or otherwise people have to play with a handicap of lower res and still be top pvper that way which takes more skill

[candid quiver]

No

[tranquil cove]

yeah im giving an example of 1 game

[tepid wadi]

OR just don't play that game 🤷‍♀️

[candid quiver]

"I came across one instance of X, so i know errything there is to know on the subject and are right"

[tranquil cove]

in other games maybe it's having a mouse that has special features

or having a monitor with low latency

[tepid wadi]

Wait, so you're telling me that games aren't perfectly balanced?

[tranquil cove]

maybe it's getting a program to center dot your screen so you have an aim reticule

[timber prism]

They can't be because their sound isn't realistic enough

Obviously

😅

[tranquil cove]

people gain any edge they can at all times, and consider themselves good pvpers is what im saying

but they are just good opportunists

[tepid wadi]

There's a reason why competitive pvp tournaments usually are run on bespoke hardware with certain requirements, to reduce unfair advantages like that. Outside of those super-competitive environments, blaming hardware advantages for general game experience is pretty nitpicky.

[tranquil cove]

or in racing games, one guy will use a bot to race a track and then learn from the bot, eliminating the whole process of learning and thinking of how to do the map yourself to get the fastest times.

but wont reveal they used the bot

[tepid wadi]

You're always going to have hardware advantages because there are people playing on min spec machines and others playing on super tricked out uber machines.

Does it matter how people learn to race though? Is that any different than watching a pro do it for hours on end and then just mimicing them?

It's the same effect

[timber prism]

There is zero issues to this bc they are not having the bot race for them....

Unless you mean anyone who doesn't learn anything blind isn't skilled

[tranquil cove]

maybe but the bot can learn in 48 hours things that the pro didnt learn at all, and for the rest it took the pro 6 months.

[finite saffron]

One of the best racing game players in the world is Max Verstappen, a real life formula 1 racer lol

I've watched a lot of his livestreams

Though I guess real life racing is pay to win too in a way... lol

You give pros bad hardware and they find a way to make it work, you give a bad player a 200 dollar mouse and they'll still be bad

[tranquil cove]

yeah but if you handicap a pro and they still win, that's when you know they are good

[tepid wadi]

I mean, if you give them the same machines and the pro wins, you still know they're good.

[finite saffron]

It's.. really not a handicap, mice are realistically a <1% difference at most

[tranquil cove]

skill is based on risk and the level of the challenge, if you make the game easier for yourself and win you aren't necessarily skilled

[timber prism]

So what is the actual issue? They learned the best lines to take from a bot versus watching someone else do it or find it themselves?

[tepid wadi]

I could see an argument if it's a brand new, never seen course and you only have 6 hours to practice. Then using the bot might give you an advantage, but it's still not cheating. It's just using a too to learn faster.

That's no different than forcing someone to walk it first and the other people get to drive it.

Is it an unfair advantage? Maybe, but if they built the bot themselves or whatever, then they kind of earned the advantage.

[tranquil cove]

i've seen it all the time in pvp games, where one guy has a 5 man team thats really good, and another guy has a 5 man team thats average or even bad. and the guy on the 'stacked' team gets a 32-2 k:d and one guy who carried his team on the losing team has a k:d of 27-12 or something, and the guy who won with the stacked team thinks hes better than the other guy because the other guys team lost and he has a better k:d... it's this faulty logic of stacking the odds in your favour, being a good opportunist, but not necessarily a skilled player, and then thinking you're good.

[tepid wadi]

If you give people a bran new course blind, the pro is still gonna win every time because they know how the fundamentals.

[tranquil cove]

these people do everything to win, but if the odds were against them, they would probably suck so bad.

[tepid wadi]

That's because you aren't good because one won a game. That means you did well. You're good because you win many games. I'm not sure what your point is other than "People can be dumb sometimes", which is obviously true.

[tranquil cove]

winning doesn't make you good is my point actually

[timber prism]

😆

[tranquil cove]

but the people who win usually think it is

[candid quiver]

...

[mild rampart]

imagine being a pro and quitting because the tournament doesnt have controllers broken the way you like, hardware matters

[tranquil cove]

the guy who held his own vs 5 pro players, is more skilled than all of them combined - in my analogy

[tepid wadi]

It does if it's a reliable result. You can carry your whole team because you're good. But your TEAM may not be good if you try to carry and still lose. That's still partly on you.

[mild rampart]

ok I actually agree with this..

[tepid wadi]

Coordination and cooperation are a big part of what makes teams good. A single good player doesn't guarantee victory.

[tranquil cove]

plus to think you are good vs that guy in a team game is also ridiculous

[timber prism]

Why can't they both be good???

[finite saffron]

these examples are getting oddly specific lol

[tranquil cove]

but i see players think that all the time in team games

[candid quiver]

Very narrowing down goalpoasts moving

[mild rampart]

specific and then personal, you making popcorn?

[candid quiver]

It varies per situation, can't make claims like "someone that wins" or "this thing" is always like this.

[finite saffron]

been munchin on it for a while tbh

[tranquil cove]

i think i am saying you measure skill more when the odds are against a player and you see how they perform.

[timber prism]

I'm in the camp if someone is winning 90% of their games. Then they can be considered good.

[candid quiver]

prolly yeah

"but its only because they cheated by learning the game and its controls and the maps and flow and became good"...

totally "cheating"

"Only if you break the players controller and they win, thats when it counts"

[mild rampart]

do yall see a difference between good player and skilled player?

[candid quiver]

We can't see that unless we know a specific situation; we can't claim to know what someone that wins alot is.

There isnt a "one fits all" take here

[timber prism]

I consider the two words synonymous

[candid quiver]

skilled is contained within good yeah, as good is a broad umbrella weighted statement

[timber prism]

Holy. I didn't expect that sticker to be that big on my phone lmao

[finite saffron]

I think the goalposts have traveled to another continent at this point lol, this convo seems to be not really be going anywhere

[candid quiver]

lol yeah

• I... wanted to say i like UT and used to make maps for it ^^

[tepid wadi]

As is often so with semantics conversations

[timber prism]

Yes xd

UT great

🔥

[finite saffron]

As someone with top end hardware, I can confirm it doesn't make you a pro. I suck lul

So pros are just good

[tepid wadi]

Making maps is fun. Back when I worked on GW2 I enjoyed building a bunch of my own test maps.

[tranquil cove]

i played one game where a specific few pro players always refused to team up with anyone else, because they knew they would lose and look bad, so they teamed up together or didn't play, they basically always were opportunists, looking for the best situations to play in. this is what everyone does in every game of course to different degrees, we look for a good spot to shoot from and not a bad spot etc. but i want to see that skilled player hold their own against the odds or carry a team, and still perform at a level similar to when odds are in their favor.

[candid quiver]

And that i think survival crafters, soulslikes and metroidvanias are currently VERY prevalent on the gaming market ^^

Enshrouded is excluded cus its just SO good

[tepid wadi]

I don't think we need any more survival crafters for a couple years 😝

[candid quiver]

but im tired of survival crafters otherwise ^^

[tepid wadi]

This year has had like 15 of them

[timber prism]

Please no more x.x

[candid quiver]

Yeah, i dont need to punch another tree and make a workbench more pls :p

[timber prism]

I'll take more metroidvania though haha

I still need to play Nine Sols

[candid quiver]

Yeah metroidvanias im not as full on ❤️

[tepid wadi]

But what if you were to punch a tree and make... a fabricator?

[candid quiver]

but... i dont like automation it scares me Zerax! ^^

it makes me feel im useless and replaceable :p

[tepid wadi]

Capitalism!

...wait

[candid quiver]

:p

[finite saffron]

I'm gonna make an extraction shooter where your main base is a survival crafting MMO

and every time you extract you need to win a battle royale

And the game is a social sandbox mmo somehow

give investor funding plz

[candid quiver]

I am a swedish socialist worker! ... (or something :p)

[candid quiver]

I will pout and stare very angrily! ^^

[tepid wadi]

um, I think this is actually basically Pad Dei

[candid quiver]

lol ^^

[timber prism]

You are too late!!!

[candid quiver]

^^

[timber prism]

Its almost Once Human as well Xd

[tepid wadi]

Once human is even less PvP though I think.

Maybe more PvP at the high levels, I dunno

[timber prism]

I didn't get to figure out the gvg stuff to see if it meant territory control

But it exists!

[candid quiver]

Oh, i hoped once human was like a moody exploration game

[tepid wadi]

It's kind of like "Ubisoft sandbox the MMO" for the most part

But there are like... PvP events you can opt into

And something about zone control, yeah

[candid quiver]

I dont like people in games they argue and then i cant help to argue back ^^

[tepid wadi]

I don't think we ever conflicted with other players though the normal play loop

[candid quiver]

Thats goodie

[timber prism]

Did you extract a bunch of that stuff?

[tepid wadi]

Except once where I picked up a PvP item and got ANNIHILATED by the PvE portion of the event, heh

[timber prism]

Xd

[tepid wadi]

That shit was way out of my potential for where I was in the game. I didn't have any PvP problems, just the PvE waves were enough to delete me and my base.

[finite saffron]

I think some bigger studios are just competing to see how many genre labels they can fit into a single game at this point

[tepid wadi]

But that's like... totally optional content and it definitely warns you when you pick it up

[timber prism]

Yeah

More labels means more potential customer base..... or something

[tepid wadi]

I wish big companies would kind of double down on making smaller, more focused games. Like make smaller teams and invest in more different game ideas, don't throw 500+ people at a single game that MIGHT succeed

[candid quiver]

Im thinking about doing a new minecraft adventure, havent played it for like 4 updates and it seems to have gotten some neat content ^^

[mild rampart]

wait til PvP gets cosy...

[finite saffron]

New Blood and Devolver Digital have both been doing absolutely fantastic in this space honestly

[candid quiver]

I only PVP in virtua fighter (fighting game) ^^

[finite saffron]

Tiny Build is doing aight but can be hit or miss

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, my thought is like... instead of 1, 500 person team, have 10, 50 person teams. Then if one fails, it's not such a huge hit to the company. And if you're working on very different games, you'll be covering the same overall audience as your MegaGame ™️ but you'll actually be able to focus your games on each audience instead of blending them together into gamer bisque

[candid quiver]

True

[finite saffron]

That's definitely a thing, it's just more of a publisher thing than a studio thing

At the end of the day the big studio big ambition projects are still worth it for someone out there to attempt because when they strike gold they start printing infinite money. Fromsoft, Baldurs Gate 3, etc

[tepid wadi]

I'm mostly talking about the big mega-companies like EA and Activision, who it would probably work for.

[finite saffron]

EA has an indie game division that's doing pretty decent I think, or was last time I checked

[mild rampart]

Dont forget marketing too that isnt always inhouse

[finite saffron]

https://www.ea.com/ea-originals yeah I've heard good things about a lot of these

[tepid wadi]

RIP Immortals of Avenum, killed by a really bad release window. It's a pretty decent game from the reviews I've seen.

[tranquil cove]

i just want that realistic RPG i wanted to make

[candid quiver]

Make it.

[finite saffron]

I actually had no idea Immortals of Avenum released lol, I heard a lot about it before release

[tranquil cove]

no it would require the funding of a triple A studio

if i could just be a ceo of a game company and tell them what to do

that would be great

[finite saffron]

Did EA pull a titanfall 2 with that games release window

[tepid wadi]

Gotta start somewhere. Make precursor games that are small, and once you see some success, pitch it to a publisher and found a studio

[tranquil cove]

it's taking no more room in hell developers like 10 years to develop no more room in hell 2

with a 10 man team

[tepid wadi]

It came out right next to BG3, D4, and Remnant 2, and Armored Core

[finite saffron]

lol of course it did

EA is so stubborn with their releases

[tepid wadi]

Like... WORST possible release window for a new, untested IP

[tranquil cove]

the issue is all these game teams that get together already know each other, from working on another project or something, so they don't really have to pay each other to develop their game idea outside of work

they just have to juggle work and working on their game

but i'd have to pay people if i wanted to put a team together

how do you get 5 years worth of salary

before the game is developed

[tepid wadi]

Investors. You have to have a good pitch, target audience, and business case for the game.

[tranquil cove]

and who would be crazy enough to put in the hours required without salary based on someones ideas

[tepid wadi]

That's why starting with smaller projects is a good idea, you can show a clear past history of success.

[tranquil cove]

yeah well i told you i basically had the whole empire at war game mapped out on paper 10 years before it came out

and groundeds save system

[tepid wadi]

Early bird gets the worm in the game industry. Gotta get on it before someone else does it similar but worse.

[tranquil cove]

i thought of grouded's save system 2 years before they started developing that game

like im sure lots of people have had similar ideas though

[candid quiver]

ofc

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, I mean it's easy to have a good idea, harder to act on it. Even harder to do it right. I've been thinking about survival games with colony builder mechanics added in for a few years now. Seeing the games that have added those in recently, I feel like they're missing a secret sauce to make the mechanics actually feel good.

What that is? I have some very specific ideas that I could probably talk about for hours 😝

[tranquil cove]

i'm usually more of an editor

i can play those colony games, and maybe perhaps stumble into some of your ideas - because i'd have a context of where those games are and how to improve them - like an editor

my game ideas are basically developed in that fashion

being creative from scratch is more difficult

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, it's pretty challenging. I've got a lot of experience with system deconstruction from my time in QA, so I tend to think about things a bit differently than most people.

[tranquil cove]

so like if i was developing a game, i could give people a framework, but id need a team to present me options before i could actually decide anything in some cases.

because, editor.

i can CHOOSE good ideas, or improve upon what exists, but i can't make them,

neat thing about enshrouded is there is not much i'd improve

a few things in the building department but that's it

occasionally i come across a game where i can't really think of anything, the devs are on point

plus a lot of what i would improve about the building in enshrouded

is not even possible

pretty much they had to design the engine with that in mind from the beginning or something

[tepid wadi]

I imagine you're talking about triangles and stuff?

[dusk bluff]

I invented call of duty before they even thought of the game! I ran around with friends in the back yard going pew pew pew!

[tranquil cove]

mostly i don't like doors in the game having specific borders, so i want doors to be editable so the border wall for them can match the wall i'm placing them into. or otherwise i want sims 3/4 type wall/door placement, where you place the door/window and it appears into the wall... instead we have to cut out spots for the doors before we place them.

the other thing was making it so i can just replace roofing. rather than deleting the old roof and placing a new one in the same spot, id like to be able to change that roof tile into another version i unlocked. i played valheim a ton where i had to scrap out hay roofs for tar ones, and sometimes you're redoing 2000 tiles just to place 2000 tiles in the same spot again for the visual difference only.

kind of small not really big problems

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, that makes sense. I feel like "Replace" should be a building option in general. Like how right now if you're missing a few blocks in a template, it'll fill them in but won't replace the other blocks. Maybe a key hold or toggle or something to make it just replace them.

[mild rampart]

replace , lock, and multiselect move

[misty arch]

https://youtu.be/ZJUtqW_IEL8?si=WhDpAan23LdMlsiS

https://youtu.be/2DIVgKtQUV0?si=6RUyu77_yDWG8kjX

[dusk bluff]

how is aska now a direct rip off of soulmask lol

[tranquil cove]

they aska me for too much money for their game

[tepid wadi]

Both have mostly positive reviews, I haven't tried them out yet though

[dusk bluff]

alot of the aska reviews look like bot accounts

the combat looks super slow and clunky too

theres so many like 2-3 hour reviews too lol

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, I think it's going to have the same sort of problems that Bellwright had, for me. You don't build a base, you build a village of preset buildings. I want to build a fortress/house/castle/whatever.

[tranquil cove]

yeah but they spent 50% of their game on a town management which isn't how i want to do towns. i want to build my own towns from scratch.

so too much money for a game mechanic that i'm not interested in

[dusk bluff]

yep atleast in soulmask its custom building

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, and Soulmask seemed to have pretty good combat, too

And like 6 different interesting progression trees 😝

[dusk bluff]

soulmask combat is quite good.

it's really hard solo though lol

[tranquil cove]

everything about aska seems good

its just the building that's pretty trash

[dusk bluff]

the boss fight i saw was them running around in circles around a wolf. and then sitting for 10 minutes skinning it lol

and the attack animations were super slow

[tranquil cove]

soul mask... seems good overall, and comendable they didn't go with tired reused lore, but did something inca/mayan themed more, even seems like monsters youd find in south america

but i am less hyped about all of that even though it's unique

somehow

maybe it's the art style?

aska has nice art style, just the building sucks/looks suck

if they can bring soul mask building into aska it would be good

oh yeah aska might have a stupid grind too you're right

[dusk bluff]

what I like most about soul mask is you aren't playing a person, you are playing as the mask.

[tranquil cove]

i saw a guy hitting a tree for 5 minutes

[dusk bluff]

at any time you can take over anyone in your camp and play as them and improve their skills yourself to your liking.

[tranquil cove]

that sounds good, never tried a game like that before

[dusk bluff]

can also back up a set amount of them to the mask so if they die they can be reloaded

it's like the mask bringing them back from the dead.

so its really dark if you think about it. You are eternally a slave to the mask lol

[tranquil cove]

if i was buying a game of the two games i'd choose soul mask

[dusk bluff]

Also not sure if aska has PVP

can't imagine sitting there gathering something for 10 mins and someone comes up behind you and kills you lol

[misty arch]

aska is more medievil dynasty as soulmask is more conan and ark but with actual content

[tranquil cove]

i still like askas art style though

but maybe i just need to play soul mask and ill forget about it

[dusk bluff]

I don't know how much I would compare it to ark.

[tranquil cove]

like i like their art style in terms of landscape and mob look

from what i saw from the videos

not in terms of the building structures

[dusk bluff]

if you don't have a tribe the content is really hard or time consuming

time to boot up elden ring and see if my maxed out rune save is still there lol

[misty arch]

mine was

[dusk bluff]

mine is gone rip

[tranquil cove]

you dont cloud save?

[dusk bluff]

mine was a backup save

i had 2 saves 1 legit and the other that i took a backup of my dude with all the runes.

well both were legit but the one i speant all my runes in lol

I kept a copy so i couild trade scum the runes back and fourth with a friend.

Time to hit up a random dude I met a year ago and haven't talked so since trading runes

[timber prism]

https://youtu.be/2Y1jfEUPyW8?si=Gz3bSzK6DhKGCzd8

\o/

[tepid wadi]

I am so excitwd for that game. It is looking so good

[tepid wadi]

Mine is gone too, I had done a bunch of modded stuff and I think I deleted my characters, heh. If I backed them up, I have no idea where.

[dusk bluff]

I'm still level 466 at least lol

[tepid wadi]

Oh geez, youll he fine.

[dusk bluff]

Yeah I'm not worried I just wanted my rune save lol

I beat all the kings field and dark souls game without rune exploiting. But I like to mess around once I beat the game

[candid quiver]

Am i a "gamer" now? ^^

[dusk bluff]

Only if you drink them all at once

You will have super powers until your heart explodes

[candid quiver]

Lol, not even 'healthy living' me would do that ^^

[vague galleon]

please dont drink those all in one go

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, only drink them if the related stat gets low

[vague galleon]

🤣

[misty arch]

https://youtu.be/fMv9EzW-47k?si=jHDkvdY1wlr_-vuG

[candid quiver]

Hp, stamina and mana levels are in check ^^

RGB is 255,255,250

[vague galleon]

https://www.gog.com/en/game/shadows_awakening

56 hours left on the free giveaway.

[tranquil cove]

i ignore gog giveaways because then i need to log into a gog account i forget the login for

lol

juggling between epic and steam is enough

[mild rampart]

i always forget i have a gog account period

[vague galleon]

Epic. 🤢🤮

gog and steam have nothing on the shitty business practices of epic and theyve been around a lot longer.

[tranquil cove]

i got 50 free games from epic, probably all together worth $1000, doesn't seem shitty for me at least

[vague galleon]

nah. thats just the typical "first ones free" business tactic.

no. its how they treat their customers like the pubg devs

its the bullshit they try to pull in court

its the lies and broken promizes around fortnite: save the world.

its the fact that their storefront is so bad youll get autobanned for buying multiple games. and they still have no shopping cart. an ancient festure all shopping sites have

also "wah chinese spyware"

theres just sooo many strikes against them that i dont want their app installed on my PC no matter how many free games they give away.

i get ethical consumption is kind of a joke in a capitalistic society but i do what i can.

[tranquil cove]

no such thing as ethical consumption in the area you're talking about

just more ethical consumption maybe

you're only choosing the lesser of two evils

i don't play trash games like pubg, battle royale types, or fornite, so that was my contribution to ethical consumption

if there is chinese spyware in epic games, the US government should/will eventually ban them. it's about all I can say, but basically anyone who owns a cell phone is probably sending their info to china. for all we know discord is a spyware program, a program that monitors what you're doing on you computer at all times? and keeps a record of your text in servers forever? without any easy options to mass delete and stupid rate limits for no reason?

like you can't talk about million dollar companies and then say you're choosing one over the other based on ethics... lol there is no ethical millionaires and billionaires. they care about money, and taking as much as you have so they can amass wealth off your hard work.

this was kind of a topic in the tv series 'The Good Place' - basically someone bought flowers, to give to someone else, but the total net effect of good vs harm this caused the world, weighed into a lot of harm, of course you as a consumer have no way to really know that and never think about it or see it. but it morally counted as doing more evil than good, and so their scales were evil over a lifetime of consuming and buying things, and they couldn't get into heaven.

so we're all doomed to go to hell 🙂

[tepid wadi]

Sidenote, that was an excellent show.

[vague galleon]

if you think valve is anywhere close to as bad as epic, I feel sad for you.
Valve has done wonders for the gaming community. the worst they've done is ask for 30% to sell on their website that does all the work and provides countless community tools for free.
and that 30% goes down if your game does well enough.

Valve vs Epic isnt even a comparison.

[tranquil cove]

the ethical company gives me nothing free, and the unethical one gave me $1000 i don't know what else to tell you. one company takes my money, the other gives me money.

actually i'm curious on the cost of games i got for free what the total is

let me tally this up

[vague galleon]

nah. if you compare what the Steam app provides verus what the epic storefront provides, it's not even close.

like, oh wow, 1000 dollars of free games. whoopdi doo

Steam has community, forums, the workshop, etc etc etc,

and ya, nexus and reddit exist

[tranquil cove]

its probably not 1000 for me since i havent been collecting epic games for long

[vague galleon]

but you have an all in once place for a community.

[tranquil cove]

but if someone had epic for 14 years like they had steam? that will be all the gaming they need really, dont even need to buy a game

[vague galleon]

not to meant a chat menu and friendlist and all that comes with it.

I would rather buy a game on steam then get it free through epic.

i cant even begin to recount how many other people agree.

[dusk bluff]

I don't believe that lol

[vague galleon]

believe what you want.

the truth hurts.

[dusk bluff]

I hate epic but I will still take their free games all day

[vague galleon]

not worth the burden that comes with it.

[dusk bluff]

You can't state an opinion as truth without a source bro

[vague galleon]

why? politicians do it all the time and get paid to do it! 😛

and people believe them!

[dusk bluff]

Yeah this is other games chat not politics

[vague galleon]

anyway

ive seen countless people state the same as me, so I know it's a rather widely held opinion.

[dusk bluff]

Yet again no source that statement means nothing

[vague galleon]

even just looking at Kingdom Hearts recently coming to PC.

i'd provide a source if I cared that you believed me. but I dont.

[dusk bluff]

Everyone I met ever said they hate the color red so the majority of the people in the world hate the color red

[vague galleon]

besides, you said you dont believe what. this: I would rather buy a game on steam then get it free through epic. right?

[dusk bluff]

Believe me bro

[vague galleon]

like how you going to doubt a statement I said about myself. XD

[dusk bluff]

This is what I don't believe

[vague galleon]

eh fair.

i've seen enough proof myself.

and ive seen how well steam does.

[dusk bluff]

I don't care if Satan gives me a free ice cream, it's free.

[vague galleon]

nothing in life is free.

if that's seriously how low you'll go then that really concerning.

like ice cream isn't even that good.

like, if I gave you a pile of shit to eat for free would you eat that?
cause people pay for mcdonalds tier ice cream.

[dusk bluff]

Not to be mean but are you okay? Like for realsies

I bring up free ice cream and you start hating on ice cream like wut

[vague galleon]

f-ck no dude. i have tons of suicidal thoughts all the time, no need to be a d-ck though.

[dusk bluff]

Why are we gate keeping what people like

If someone likes McDonald's ice cream who cares

[vague galleon]

Im not gate keeping. im not saying hey. you should uninstall epic games.

but i am saying "just so know you"

ya feel me?

[dusk bluff]

I really don't

[vague galleon]

sad.

[dusk bluff]

If epic wants to give me free stuff I'll gladly take it.

[vague galleon]

that's on you then.

[dusk bluff]

Haven't given them a single dollar and I'm happy to continue this relationship.

[vague galleon]

but I aint going to shut up about unethical shit.

dont even try and stop me.

if you want the free games, get the free games.

but i know im not alone in wanting nothing to do with it.

[dusk bluff]

That's fine I used to be the same way then I stopped caring.

[vague galleon]

ive stopped caring about soooooooooooo many things.

[dusk bluff]

It doesn't effect me or the people I love and care about.

[vague galleon]

but f-ck EPIC.

[dusk bluff]

But their Lego collab is fun

I love lego

[vague galleon]

that DID peak my interest NGL

lego is awesome

[dusk bluff]

It's also free lol

[vague galleon]

damn you.

we all have our price

[dusk bluff]

They can have all my information who ever has to look through it is probably very uncomfortable right now.

[vague galleon]

i mostly stopped caring about that too.

[dusk bluff]

Some scammer emailed me saying they had videos of me spanking the monkey and they would send it to everybody I know.

I told them to go right ahead

[vague galleon]

rofl

[tranquil cove]

all free on epic

redout 2 $25.49
marvels midnight suns $79.99
chivalry 2 $43.99
farming sim 22 $38.99
the outer worlds spacers choice edition $79.99
thief $25.99
love $3.39
deliver us mars $33.99
surviving the aftermath $39.99
Europa universalis iv $52.99
orwell keeping an eye on you $11.49
call of the sea $21.99
rise of industry $32.99
warpips $19.99
recipe for disaster $18.99
hell is others $16.99
kerbal space program $43.99
death stranding $54.99
encased $41.49
fallout $10.99
fallout tactics $10.99
fallout 2 $10.99
wildcat gun machine $18.99
RPG in a box $32.99
shadow tactics $43.99
starwars squadrons $54.99
alba wildlife adventure $18.99
fallout 3 game of year edition $26.99
darkwood $14.99
slain back from hell $14.99
ark survival evolved $16.99
gloom haven $38.99
hundred days wine making sim $27.99
shadow of the tomb raider dedition $53.99
fallguys free
Wolfenstein the new order $24.99
borderlands 3 $79.99

keep in mind i refuse some of their free games because i know i wont play them

so i could have gotten more money, and i started late on grabbing their free games

[dusk bluff]

Finally finished soul mask and would highly recommend. Biggest complaint was the gear repair system that needs a overhall. Repair your gear you lose the mods on it and gear uses durability the more you repair. Pretty much making it useless to repair so might aels well just craft new one instead

[tranquil cove]

there are people who have 20 pages of free games on epic

they probably don't need to buy a game

like ever

[vague galleon]

🤷‍♂️

[dusk bluff]

Borderlands 3 is 80$? What the hell?

[vague galleon]

wont touch that game. they handled the story soooo poorly after BL2 set the bar soooo high.

[tranquil cove]

comes to $1190.54

in free games

[vague galleon]

eh. I have a job.

[tranquil cove]

this hugely unethical company gave me 1k

steam just takes money

lol

[vague galleon]

ive gotten free games on steam

[tranquil cove]

yeah like once or twice a year

[vague galleon]

you literally read nothing I wrote. rofl.

the Steam platform is insane.

[tranquil cove]

once you click play on a game, their platform is forgotten and doesn't matter

[vague galleon]

epic is just a storefront with free games and a system that bans if you if you buy too many.

[tranquil cove]

is there like proof or articles on being banned for buying games

maybe they want you to get the games for free 😄

[vague galleon]

there was a huge thing about it ya.

but i'd be wasting my time looking it up for you since you wouldn't read the articles about it anyway.

you clearly have your mind made up.

🤷‍♂️

[tranquil cove]

well it's a good thing i don't buy games and just get them for free on epic

that's what my epic account is for

games i can get for free, so i don't need to buy them on steam

[vague galleon]

i'd rather get the games I want to play instead of hoping they're free eventually on epic.

[tranquil cove]

yeah but for poor people epic is good

those people exist on steam too, the poor people

you go to their account on steam and see they only play free mobas

like DOTA

[vague galleon]

MOBAs, ew.

anyway. I dont care about getting free games.
if you want the free games take them, but don't ignore the issues behind the curtain.

[tranquil cove]

well i never said one was better than the other, i only said you're choosing the lesser of two evils

if i was going to boycott epic

i would boycott steam too, and gaming in general

[vague galleon]

and i dont consider steam evil.

"oh they charge money for games" like everyone else.

I should boycott nintendo.

freacking nintendo. sheesh.

[tranquil cove]

but its also subjective

what you care about in steam

i don't care about

in fact i wouldn't mind if steam got rid of their market place, and card system, and badges, and profiles are pointless too, and the groups, wow so much unethical things happen in steam groups. steam is technically a partner in crimes that happen on their platform because they can't moderate properly.

[vague galleon]

crime in groups you say 👀

[tranquil cove]

lol plus the questionable games they allow, now especially with allowing NSFW games too

https://store.steampowered.com/app/915730/Catch_The_Kids_Priest_Simulator_Game/

Steam

Catch The Kids: Priest Simulator Game

A lot of people like kids. But who like them mostly? Of course priests! And our main hero, Father Nick, is not an exception!

Price

$3.99

▶ Play video

loool

[vague galleon]

i dont see an issue with NSFW games.

[vague galleon]

thats messed up though.

[tranquil cove]

or the school bully games

games where you beat up kids at school, shoot people, harm teachers etc.

[vague galleon]

they could moderate better, yes.

[tranquil cove]

lots of different games like that on steam, that might appeal to younger kids in school

since the graphic style attracts that demographic of gamers

maybe epic has the same games available i dunno

but i'm just saying no company is perfect

[vague galleon]

well of course not.

but being less than perfect doesnt make you evil.

[tranquil cove]

i'm not saying it does, i'm saying by nature of being million dollar companies they are unethical already

you are just choosing one based on preferences over the other, perhaps epic is more unethical in certain ways (that's where the saying comes from 'choosing the lesser of two evils' it's a saying).

but steam is not free of any guilt

when i boycotted coke, i didn't choose pepsi

i boycotted all drinks lol

[vague galleon]

just because you turn a profit doesnt make you evil.
I understand a show made that comment but like. what. buying bread is an evil? that's dumb.

Epic has done straight up shitty things, steam is just a big company.

[tranquil cove]

yeah that's ethics, buying bread can be morally problematic if the bread was made with slave labour for example

or child labour like it is with chocolate

[vague galleon]

ah ya, the chocolate thing.

that's not too hard to do with chocolate.
hersheys is ass, unless you're making smores.

[tranquil cove]

or how about selling chocolate that has questionable amounts of cadmium and lead in it, which is toxic to humans. yet most dark chocolate contains high enough levels to be worrisome.

or black hair dye causing cancers 😄

lots of millionaires releasing products that kill people all the time

or harm the environment

[vague galleon]

more like billionaires at this point.

[tranquil cove]

or the new threat which is microplastics

[vague galleon]

yummy

inject it right into my bloodstream!

T-T

[tranquil cove]

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt9071322/

GENEVA (21 February 2024) – American chemical companies DuPont and Chemours have discharged toxic per- and polyfluoroalkyl substances (PFAS) into the local environment, completely disregarding the rights and wellbeing of residents along the lower Cape Fear River in North Carolina, UN experts* said today

causing cancers

lead paint, leaded gasoline, was a big thing too

asbestos lol

list goes on and on

think i'll trust steam to be ethical?

anyone making millions putting money first

[vague galleon]

not sure how a digital game store polutes the oceans

[tranquil cove]

they could have labour issues, ethical issues revolving around moderation of their groups or games they allow, privacy issues, issues with polluting enivornment if they do any sort of shipping or have warehouses, or trucks or if they built their own console and sourced the parts that required mining to create, servers are bad for environment too, data storage centers etc. lots of ways really. gaming itself can have adverse psychological effects on younger kids... the promotion of video games to the extent it has been embedded in most younger generations lives etc...

[vague galleon]

actually, that makes me wonder, the halflife engine, Source or whatever it's called, do they charge people to use that?

[tranquil cove]

the source engine? maybe? but not if the game is free.

[vague galleon]

the issue with pubg and epic is that there was an issue with the engine and connectivity issues that plagued pubg.
epic refused to fix this issue, and when they "Copied their customers product" they put a fix to the issue in their own game instead of fixing the issue in the engine.

that right there is a big example of why I dont like epic games, and ive never seen valve pull that shit.

plus they charge people to use unreal, i dont know if valve charges people to use the source engine.

which, charging people for an engine is fine, but refusing to fix an issue for a customer and making a workaround for your own shit, while you copy your customer and steal their audience? that's a BIG RED FLAG

[tranquil cove]

nobody fixes their engines lol thats my experience with game engines

same bug will exist for 14 years and the devs will claim they fixed it

fixing an engine is hard

[vague galleon]

either way, red flag.

[tranquil cove]

source is full of issues

thats why they opted to just make source 2

[vague galleon]

lol

[tepid wadi]

This is why it's so good that keen made their own for Enshrouded 😝

[tranquil cove]

yeaaaah but they might also not fix things

either some bug will elude them forever

or it's so integrated into the engine that the work required wont justify the fix

so they will find some work around, reminds me of space engineers

where at one point they just deleted ladders.

that was their fix.

had me laughing pretty good

the way space engineers fixed bugs

and like house flipper rather than fix some problems? just decided to make house flipper 2? even though they use unity engine

[tepid wadi]

Well, one of the problems is that when you don't own the engine, you can't really affect the priority of the engine team. That's what Keen has on their side. If there is a big issue that needs engine time to address, they can prioritize it.

Little games like house flipper can't pressure the unity engine team to make improvements and likely have no visibility into their backlog/priorities. So what can they do? Probably not much

[tranquil cove]

yep, enshrouded devs can fix their own engine for sure, they don't need to wait for unity/unreal to fix it, or even ignore it and never fix it

[tepid wadi]

Same thing with Ark. Fix bugs? Or create more content with new even more bugs?

They just might not have the technical capability to fix some of their issues.

I love the game but there are bugs in there that have existed since they went into early access like 10 years ago.

[misty arch]

https://youtu.be/5KYT2SssNPQ?si=NC9ASmxEtxJA26x3

[rigid mountain]

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1712350/Riven/

[cerulean garnet]

So many mechanics and features in ASKA that would work well in Enshrouded and vise versa

[misty arch]

its that time of year again. The summer sale has arrived
https://store.steampowered.com/

[finite saffron]

Enshrouded is also 20% off in it

[misty arch]

even without a discount the game is worth it.

[viral zodiac]

türkishh dc?

[maiden totem]

All Guild Wars stuff on Sale for anyone whos never tried the game, happy to help any new players.

[viral zodiac]

@mighty robin

bro turkish discord?

pls

help mee

^^

[candid quiver]

Calm down emrah-bey ^^

[viral zodiac]

qweqweewq

[mighty robin]

No this is not a turkish discord.

[vague galleon]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1146319392473370645/1255941286129565777/Steam_Summer_Sale.mp4?ex=667ef5f8&is=667da478&hm=56fe7cd0b295d54b8e25d2f45eb9646bc67a85309a425226d7648958968be25f&

[dusk bluff]

He's on a Mac though he can't play 90% of those games

[misty arch]

https://massivelyop.com/2024/06/28/raph-kosters-new-mmorpg-is-called-stars-reach-and-yes-its-basically-star-wars-galaxies-2/

[shrewd glacier]

Anyone played new world

[woven folio]

Yes , nice game for many hours

[dusk bluff]

Yep I played the alpha, both betas, and a few months into release. I quit due to them not fixing the many glaring bugs lol

The bugs they did fix took forever. We reported you could duplicate any item or gold in the game in the alpha. They released the game without fixing it so everyone exploited it and ruined the economy.

We also reported that invincibility glitch and crafting without using mats. The game went live with these exploits too lol

[stone basin]

Selamın aleyküm

[dusk bluff]

English please sir.

[north spruce]

yup, enjoyed. I think they;re doing a rebrand lol since their coming out on consoles

[stuck shard]

I've played beta, and have played it continuously for 2 years and now off and on. is there something you want to know about the game?

[tranquil cove]

oh i just quit the game cause it was trash

level based uneven pvp, solo quest grind, all the flaws you expect to find in mmo, not even sure why i bought it

$60 i never touched again

i suppose i could just fish in the game or something

fishing was okay, while watching a tv show

[dusk bluff]

The level 1 pvp gear was the strongest gear in the game for a long time too lol

They messed up the scaling so you got something like 70% DMG reduction

[tranquil cove]

i remember from the start everyone was impressed with the graphics and the crafting

but nobody was really big on the pvp

or anything else

[dusk bluff]

Pvp was a buggy mess literally all aspects of it

Very easy to make yourself not take any DMG

Put game into window mode, move the window around your screen, then stop. The game stops communication with the server for a few seconds so you take 0 dmg

[tranquil cove]

lol

crazy

[dusk bluff]

Worked on all bosses and vs players

That's how you duplicated items and gold too

Do a trade, and as soon as you hit accept move window around the screen. The trade cancels but you received the items and the person giving you the items keeps theirs too

Worked for crafting. Hit craft, move window, it makes the item and keeps the material.

How do you not fix that when we reported it in beta? Lol. We completely broke their game the first month of launch and they still didn't address it.

[tepid wadi]

You've activated my trap card!

Crafting in MMOs drives me nuts, it's so focused on the "push button, receive item" sort of crafting which is the WRONG way to do it. The thing that makes MMOs special is that they are a ton of people playing together, so systems should be built to encourage player interaction and engagement. Crafting could be an amazing way to do this by implementing skill-based crafting systems.

Allowing players to be good at a crafting minigame adds a huge amount of social potential to the game. When one of your buddies gets a sick new piece of gear crafted by someone who is amazing at the crafting game, you might also seek that person out to get a similar craft. Or when a rare crafting material drops, you might want to save it to use it with a special piece of gear crafted by someone who is a master crafter. Or maybe YOU are the master crafter and your guild all comes to you to get stuff crafted because you're so amazing at the blacksmithing minigame.

So often, crafting feels like an afterthought necessary add, so they just add some basic recipe-based crafting that has no flavor or skill to it and it is just such a dull addition. Some games like FFXIV spice it up with a synthesis system, but even there it's mostly overshadowed by the fact that the majority of your gear comes from raid drops.

[finite saffron]

Albion didn't exactly have a crafting minigame, but it sorta did by proxy of being a player driven economy and having a bunch of crafting systems tied to that. Was probably my favorite part of that game when I played it, I made a lot of money crafting stuff and flipping it on the market

Also felt really satisfying when you'd do the math and discover some really profitable niche craft that nobody has noticed in the market yet

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, it drives a completely separate type of player from the normal gameplay loop, which is great for an MMO. And it gives you something to do when you don't feel like going out to do combat or questing or whatever.

It also has incredible potential for mobile integration. Imagine if you could take your MMO on the go and do crafting while you're riding the bus and such.

[finite saffron]

I don't honestly know how you'd make a functioning MMO crafting system in a non-pvp game, inflation is such a huge issue that idk how you really overcome it.

Only games that overcome it (by cheating) are games like path of exile that have league/wipe systems, because the inflation just resets every 3 months lol

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, we see a lot of MMOs tout the "EvE-inspired" economy system, but they all fail because they miss one core aspect: loss. You lose shit all the time in EvE and that helps counteract inflation when your super expensive ship and modules get blown up.

[finite saffron]

but in non-wipe PVE mmos, you fairly quickly reach a point where more of an item has been crafted than there are actually people who want to buy it, so the price just plummets

Yeah Albion has the EvE system, and it works for that reason. The PVP elements remove stuff from the market constantly, as well as other built in systems

[tepid wadi]

Yep, makes sense. I feel like PvE-only MMOs are never going to be the place for advanced crafting stuff like this because of that reason. But if you're going to have a totally bunk crafting system, why even make the effort to have it at all?

My dream MMO has a variety of crafting minigames that take from other simple games like Bejeweled, so you can have players who love those activities and contribute to the overall world in meaningful ways.

[finite saffron]

Only games I can think of it functioning in a PVE MMO would be roguelite/extraction based MMOs, as those systems remove items from the economy even if they might not be pvp

Other than realm of the mad god I can't think of any that exist right now, but I know some studios are toying with the idea

and ROTMG has an insanely broken economy for so many other reasons

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, I like PvP in my MMOs as well, so that's fine with me. I think there's a lot of potential for "living world" MMOs with meaningful PvP, justice systems, etc etc.

The only in-development MMO that really fits that is Ashes of Creation and who knows when that will be playable 🤷‍♀️

[finite saffron]

I still think a roguelite mmo is an idea with so much potential that is going completely overlooked in the market, but I don't have mmo making money, and games like ROTMG and SurvivedBy probably make investors skeptical to try the idea out

[finite saffron]

Honestly the economy thing is fairly doable if the game has good PVP systems. I'm worried about AoC not doing well for many other reasons lol, getting Star Citizen vibes from that project personally

The vibes I've gotten from that game's teasers are "create hype features first, figure out the core systems later", which always makes me skeptical of a game ever being... finished. lol

[tepid wadi]

Some of the stuff they've shown about things like seasons and stuff have been really cool, and their gameplay is looking pretty good too. I'm definitely withholding judgment until I get my hands on it though.

One thing that gives me hope is that a lot of their systems are inspired by Archeage, which was one of my favorite MMOs before it got P2W'd

[candid quiver]

You mean "albion online"?
Because there is a reaaaally good older singleplayer scifi/fantasy rpg called Albion that i love.
Was very sad that 'albion online' had nothing at all to do with the actual Albion rpg game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aapFVz5w1dE

This is Albion ❤️

[finite saffron]

Oh yeah Albion online haha

[candid quiver]

Ah. Can recommend Albion (not online) tho ^^
I always wish there was a sequel

[tepid wadi]

I feel you there. My "ancient game I want a sequel of" is Arcanum

[candid quiver]

Arcanum - Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura!

Yes that is an awesome game too ❤️

Loved magnus, that "certainly wasnt no city dwarf but a Real dwarf", and the book one could find in his inv... ^^

[tepid wadi]

I mostly loved the world and the mechanics around the concepts of "tech vs magic" in an RPG perspective, where a powerful mage would disrupt technology, but powerful technology would suppress magical energy.

[tranquil cove]

only $500

10$ each game

arcanum is $2

https://store.steampowered.com/app/500810/Arcanum_Of_Steamworks_and_Magick_Obscura/

Steam

Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura

An Industrial Revolution in a World of MagickImagine a place of wonder, where magick and technology coexist in an uneasy balance, and an adventurer might just as easily wield a flintlock pistol as a flaming sword. A place where great industrial cities house castle keeps and factories, home to Dwarves, Humans, Orcs and Elves alike. A place of A...

Price

$1.49

Recommendations

1492

Metacritic

81

[finite saffron]

some of those prices are criminal lol, why is call of duty 2 (the original) still 15 bucks despite being on sale

[tranquil cove]

$1209 happens to be the amount of worth the free games i got on epic launcher are

[finite saffron]

Seems like they priced things really oddly to make you spend more money on the bundle while thinking you're getting a good deal, there's no way anybody would play all these games

just buy the ones you want instead they're all on sale haha

[tranquil cove]

yeah most of them are trash games lol activision sucks

you buy a bundle like that if you're for some reason an activision fan boy

like "wow i love activision, i just want to own everything they made!"

[finite saffron]

lol the newest call of duty has a 67% discount and the oldest call of dutys have 25-50% discounts

that's... confusing

[tranquil cove]

cause theres obviously 500k online players in the old games

amazing multiplayer experience

huh google says call of duty has 80k online

there we go that's why you paying so much money

you get to meet 98 awesome people

one of them is elon musk

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, it's easy to get now. It's just hard to play because it's so old. It's a great example of how far games have come in the past 20 years or so

[tranquil cove]

love games of this age personally, did bg2, and icewinddale

doesnt seem too far from them

bg1 did feel a bit aged to me though

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, I played a big of BG1 back when BG3 was going into early access

[tranquil cove]

i bought it, $2 is a steal

[tepid wadi]

It's definitely good, one of my favorites

[tepid wadi]

It also uses an action point system that is relatively rare these days. I like multi-action point systems like that.

[tranquil cove]

yeah i don't mind ap systems

downloading it now

[timber prism]

I love OG FF14 1.0 gathering games... the crafting in the game is pretty fun too

People of course found the best way to script them now but it was very cool at the beginning when you were first doing it

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, my problem with synthesis-style crafting systems is that there's often an "only" of "best" outcome that is super clear, making script building for it relatively straightforward. There needs to be an element of skill to the game so that it's possible to be better at the crafting than someone else is. That inequality of outcome means that certain folks will thrive based off being good at the crafting alone and it creates a social network within the game that encourages player interaction in a positive way.

FFXIV is probably not the best game for it because there isn't really any gear loss or anything in the game and PvP isn't a focus, but that just means it's not the type of MMO that I'd envision to put this sort of crafting in.

[timber prism]

Yeah.. its pretty much.. gear crafting at the start of new content etc to push and make money

i think the only real benefit of lack of gear loss in the game is that a single character has so many classes they can be so there is ton of gear output there

[tepid wadi]

Well XIV also has a lot of... forward momentum? Like they regularly release new raids and content so keeping crafting up with it is probably a lot of effort. Having a good skill based crafting system would work better in a game where there's a lot more horizontal progression and players are competing for progress in other ways. Add to that the ability to lose value (in gear, or other ways) and you could create a solid system where skill based crafting would be super valuable.

[finite saffron]

@red hull I picked this up in the Steam summer sale and it consumed my whole weekend, really fun gladiator roguelite game made by a very small team https://store.steampowered.com/app/973230/We_Who_Are_About_To_Die/

Steam

We Who Are About To Die

Join the community! https://discord.gg/8PEutcdwf5IMPORTANT: This game is ACTUALLY different!Get ready to re-learn how to fight. This game features a physics based combat system with directional attacks. It'll take time to master! Don't worry, gladiators exist to be sacrificed. You control your character fully, at all times, based on complex inpu...

Price

$15.39

Recommendations

5843

▶ Play video

Also picked up Rain World and it's awesome but also extremely difficult I keep rage quitting when I try to play it lol

[red hull]

ahhh XD hahaha i could never! i got some summer steam sales too, i ll play them..someday. But one thing i do is to never play the game i test

[candid quiver]

Ive had too little patience for Rain World too, eventho i feel i will love it.. its just hard ^^

[finite saffron]

I love it and also hate it because it's so hard lol

[red hull]

this says a lot 😂

[finite saffron]

I do the same thing but with big budget games lol, I usually play the indies pretty fast

I bought metro exodus like... 6 months ago, and still haven't launched it

[red hull]

phahaha i did the same thing with gta6

[finite saffron]

Was also given a key to No Rest for the Wicked and still haven't launched it

I'm sure I'd love both of them I am just very bad at time management

Starting big budget games feels like a huge commitment, but indie games can usually be finished pretty fast lol

[red hull]

it is huge commitment

i m a high grind type person and i spend months on 1 game

[finite saffron]

I'm the type of person to play diablo 4 for like 5 hours and play risk of rain 2 for over 300 hours

[red hull]

hahaah

atm i m attracted to Enshrouded, however i rage quit aswell when a building makes no sense.

[finite saffron]

Like the building system? Or a dungeon?

[red hull]

no no, what i m building

[candid quiver]

Im primary building in TU, then im currently replaying starfield (last time i tried close to launch my savefile got broken after 55 hours.. had to take a while to replay)

[red hull]

my brain is not braining..no creativity

is frustrating

all my fault

[finite saffron]

ahhh okay lol

yeah I make shoeboxes in survival games as my first base usually

[red hull]

i don t know why i take such a massive goal on it

to build something nice

[candid quiver]

Im also following tainted grail progress (kinda like a skyrim but diff and a bit more brittish) ^^

[finite saffron]

I'm the kind of person whose terraria "base" always looks like this

[red hull]

i loveee terarriaaaaaaaaaaaaa

[finite saffron]

"oh this npc needs a home, whatever I'll make a box"

[red hull]

haven t played in years

[candid quiver]

You copy my enshrouded house design Toast! ^^

[finite saffron]

I think my initial enshrouded playtest was actually the first time I didn't do that in a survival game when the team brought me on, because I was like "whow this building system is neat" lol

[red hull]

in actuality in game requires you to make a box for each npc xD my pain is that i can t put just a box i need to put furniture..and i start grind and grind for furniture

i let the pirates come so i can take their stuff

i go lava and take stuff

i can t stop

😂

[finite saffron]

I have almost 500 hours in terraria I think, but a lot of my playtime was actually before the game even had hardmode I think lol, played that game a lot when I was younger

[red hull]

shame on me, just 200

meanwhile counter strike 3k hours

[finite saffron]

I can't believe how much time I'd sink into the most barebones games ever back then, terraria barely had anything lol

Warframe is my most played game (that has an hour counter) I think, 800 hours or something

[red hull]

😂 yesss every boss was hard for me whatsoever

[finite saffron]

I've probably sank more time into minecraft or the old MMO Tibia though, but those games don't have hour counters

[red hull]

estimated time...5k hours

🥹

[finite saffron]

Path of exile as well I imagine, most of my playtime for that wasn't on steam

[red hull]

😮

i m not very brilliant at pve/rpg games anyway

[finite saffron]

I'm not either I just like grinding hehehe

[red hull]

i was surprised Enshrouded was ok'ish

🥹

i thought i ll fight some elden ring type of bosses

[short sail]

Blackmire corewood and bark is really hard to get by.

[red hull]

get by or mine it?

because mining it, is a hell.

takes 30 mins to get 1 stack of 250

[short sail]

Exactly that...

And I mine it with copper pickaxe.

So the biomes appropiate pickaxe.

[red hull]

i use iron and makes no difference, the endurance on the pickaxe is excruciating combined with ..blackmire wood

[short sail]

Didn't knew we pickaxe trees that are more resilent than iron itself.

[candid quiver]

Yeah iron pick still takes time with mire wood

Its cus its such strong amazing vukah wood! ^^

[tranquil cove]

my terraria base is epic

we who are about to die looks good

can you buy it for me 😄

[molten moth]

anyone play kingdom of the fallen the last stand? and how terrible is it

I figured for $1 on steam the 34% rating is probably worth it lol

[molten moth]

and the answer is no... it isn't worth a dollar

[tepid wadi]

Ah, for a second I thought you were talking about Age of Darkness: Final Stand, which is a pretty good game

[charred flame]

lol

Even a dollar is not worth, how bad is the game

[short sail]

You can't boot it

[molten moth]

oh you can boot it, but the combat feels like being stuck in mud

[lilac adder]

anyone playing once human?

could it be the new fallout4 0_0

[timber prism]

fallout 4?

No, it doesn't play like a Bethesda game

[tepid wadi]

I played it last night, it feels kinda like "Ubisoft Sandbox - The Survival MMO meets Secret World"

Pretty fun, I like how there are little puzzles and challenges all over the place.

[dusk bluff]

I am checking it out today/this week!

[tepid wadi]

I'd say it's worth checking out. I'm not sure about it's longevity, it's very "theme park-y" where once you clear an area there doesn't seem much reason to go back there later. Not really sure what the endgame is going to look like.

[dusk bluff]

Some friends are waiting for the mobile version. Not sure if it's cross platform to mobile

[tepid wadi]

Interesting. I could see how it'd be fine on mobile, I never really like mobile gaming though.

[dusk bluff]

I like mobile for bed.

[tepid wadi]

It's definitely simple enough to do on mobile, it's pretty much just gunplay as far as "active" mechanics

[dusk bluff]

Do some basic tasks while laying in bed and the more complicated stuff in PC

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, makes sense

I think smart mobile integration is vastly underutilized in MMOs

Like not "build the whole game to run on mobile" but more like "have crafting and other minigames doable on mobile"

[dusk bluff]

WOW has some basic stuff

[tepid wadi]

Yeah, I'd love to see a modern MMO designed with solid mobile integration from the ground up, without sacrificing complex PC gameplay so the whole game is playable on mobile

[tranquil cove]

i never got into mobile devices

not even for texting, or phone calls

and never got into headsets for sound on pc

which means to take a call on a cell phone i'd probably want a headset plugged into the phone, but these are two of my least favourite things combined

lol

could never imagine gaming on a phone