references♥_1450-1470

[restive geyser]

Pretty sure the Kettle helm is English? Someone has to correct me on that

[karmic mulch]

it feels british

[restive geyser]

Just because it feels british, doesn't mean it is

The Lewis gun feels british

But it was made in America

[karmic mulch]

that throws me

[restive geyser]

Never knew the Lewis gun was American?

[karmic mulch]

no

it makes me question things

[restive geyser]

Yes, good.

Welcome to history, nothing makes sense on a deeper scale

[karmic mulch]

this just makes me question the B.A.R even more

like i love the thing, its cool but like

anyways

i see your point

im trying to learn more

[restive geyser]

The BAR is American

[karmic mulch]

i know that

it makes me question why we chose it over the lewis gun

its cool but as a machine gun its

it has problems

[restive geyser]

We used it in small numbers in WW1

It really began combat in WW2

Seeing it's first few major conflicts there in the Pacific

[restive geyser]

We used it over the lewis, because the BAR had one thing the lewis gun didn't: It was using ammo the US Military was already using in mass, and it was a heat sink. The BAR was just pick up and shoot

[karmic mulch]

ah fair

[restive geyser]

The US wanted a carryable enough small fully automatic machine rifle that could still function in a squad

The BAR was a heavy bitch

But it worked for what they were going against

[karmic mulch]

the machinegun more worked for the squad than otherway around

[restive geyser]

Yes, exactly

[karmic mulch]

the germans worked for the machine gun

[restive geyser]

Squad weapon

[karmic mulch]

makes sense for pacific

i have no idea why i typed vietnam

that was dum

[restive geyser]

BAR regardless has a munitions man

One guy with the bar, another guy with future VA benefits for his broken spine

Carrying almost all of his ammo

[karmic mulch]

always want to distribue weight, and will help reload quicker if stationary

[robust tendon]

already have em

[karmic mulch]

nah theyre just big

[robust tendon]

the greatswords in the game are pretty large

[karmic mulch]

i love the stupid big ones

[restive geyser]

Do we have any sources of the montante in the game timeline?

[karmic mulch]

i love swords that are polearms

[restive geyser]

I know it was used in the 15th century, but that's like all i know

[restive geyser]

Just use an halberd at that point, honestly

[karmic mulch]

i do appreciate the games focus on accuracy

[karmic mulch]

but sword is fun

also "HalfSword"

[restive geyser]

So is giant cleaver affixed stick

[karmic mulch]

true

i do have fun with the polehammers too

[restive geyser]

Poleaxe*

[robust tendon]

well this would be called a montante i believe

really depends what you mean by montante, big two handed swords are in the timeframe

[karmic mulch]

no i know theyre different, i love the halberds too

[restive geyser]

You don't want to get the weapon names incorrect here, we already bully people who call the Halberd a Vougle

[karmic mulch]

i love vougle

[restive geyser]

Idc if i spelled that name wrong

I lost the respect for that weapon due to the community

[robust tendon]

vouge

[karmic mulch]

wha

[restive geyser]

Spreading the misinfo gospel

[restive geyser]

Well, this mostly works

You could suggest this

BUT

[robust tendon]

well we already have swords like that

in the game

[restive geyser]

Yeah exactly

Or you can just..

Make the high tier long sword

Thin

With mods

Call it a montante

Profit

[restive geyser]

The vo

[restive geyser]

2 times

In halfsword chat

Have i had to like ping sam

To help with people calling the halberd the incorrect name

Because of a stupid fuckass museum using the incorrect definition from a 19th century miscommunication

[robust tendon]

i love actual vouges

[restive geyser]

They vaguely remind me of Naginatas

[steep yoke]

These are cool pictures

The second one is really neat I love their armor

[restive geyser]

Gold sallet guy is drippy

[steep yoke]

Fr

[robust tendon]

he got that shit on

[steep yoke]

I love brigandines so much

I think they're neat since you can get different colors and patterns

[robust tendon]

unsure if thats a brigandine tbh, looks like a livery coat(?) instead

[restive geyser]

I think the gold sallet guy is wearing a Brigandine

[karmic mulch]

was gonna say that

[steep yoke]

Yeah I think so too

[karmic mulch]

theyre cool

[robust tendon]

doesn't really look like one to me

[steep yoke]

Whats the difference between a livery coat and brigandine? I only ask because I see the triangular metal dots on the image

[restive geyser]

Those metal dots are the religious markings iirc

Kevlar explained this awhile to me

They aren't dots

[robust tendon]

common pattern in normal fashion

[terse bronze]

The tri point pattern formed by rivets on brigandines was kind of a very very popular pattern for pearls and other decor as far as the 13thc even appearing on surcoats.

Saying that it's not because you see 3 points pattern on a garment that it's by default a brigandine

[robust tendon]

not always a smoking gun for brigs

[terse bronze]

A livery coat is essentially a surcoat put on top of armor

[robust tendon]

also livery coats are just normal garments you wear over armor

yea

[steep yoke]

Yeah I never said it wasn't, I said I think it is one. If I'm proven wrong I'm more than willing to accept that.

I asked what the difference is, so by people explaining i could better understand

[robust tendon]

la brigandine surcoat and caparison

[restive geyser]

Oh i feel like asking, what do these paintings represent?

[terse bronze]

It's my head theory that brigandines had a lot of these 3 rivets patterns BECAUSE it was a popular pattern
Because I don't think you need 3 rivets on a brig, plenty of brigandines with only 1 rivet pattern

[robust tendon]

idk the sources just stole them off of here

[steep yoke]

Bro got a whole lady on his head

[restive geyser]

Oh

[robust tendon]

i think this as well

[restive geyser]

The one on the right looks like a religious painting

[robust tendon]

theres many other brig rivet patterns

me

[restive geyser]

You could use this as a fucking weapon

Take it off and hit someone with it lmfao

[terse bronze]

Also the guy with the gold sallet quite clearly has a jack under his livery coat. Look a the "skirt" area

[coral path]

Iberian cuirass by Elthien armory for those to lazy to click the link.

[terse bronze]

what link

[coral path]

i sent an insta link a while ago of this cuirass

this one

some slumberous dudes

https://warfare.6te.net/15/Hronsky_Benadik_Church-Guards.htm

[karmic mulch]

my god

[coral path]

it looks badass

[karmic mulch]

yea man

and its just

beautiful

i love silver

i find gold too tacky

[coral path]

id like to see brass in the game

thatd be cool

[karmic mulch]

i enjoy brass too

[terse bronze]

Hhhhhooonk ... mimimimimimimimi....

[coral path]

mail bevor confirmed

[karmic mulch]

there is something i love about the armor with no decoration, just pure praciticality

[coral path]

I love myself some fluted armor fr

and mail on rerebraces

[terse bronze]

one of my favorite thing ever is lance rests on brigs

[coral path]

this is true.

I hope I see them in game even if jousting wont be a thing.

[karmic mulch]

foot jousting

[terse bronze]

[coral path]

nah like horses n shit

wont be a thing soon

[karmic mulch]

soon?

so eventually

[terse bronze]

if they add horses they should add burhurt before jousting #umpopularopinion...

[coral path]

yes

[terse bronze]

smack people on their helmer with this

[coral path]

really hope this will be in the game

no women or children for the spousal thing

where the dudes in the hole

[terse bronze]

yeah

[void stream]

oh yeah

We need a game mode with this

[coral path]

anyways

[terse bronze]

Idk i'd prefer regular buhurt like seen in rene d'anjou's tourney book

[steep yoke]

This is nice looking armor

[karmic mulch]

i love how much thought went into making jousting tournies a spectacle

[terse bronze]

thanks

[coral path]

camacurt the goat

[steep yoke]

Fuck I love the esthetics of jack chain

[karmic mulch]

those shouldershields that had springs so when they got hit flew into the air

[terse bronze]

wish this wasn't a 16thc thing

also the name of the shield is targe

jus sayin

[karmic mulch]

thought so just wasnt sure

[steep yoke]

How armed would this man be considered during this time period?

Well armed?

[karmic mulch]

decently

[terse bronze]

Pretty decently armed, he's a light cavalryman (french/burgundian coustillier)

[karmic mulch]

a professional soldier

[karmic mulch]

the chin and neck openess makes me scared

[coral path]

Nah he's armed

He looks badass too

[terse bronze]

he'll be ok

[karmic mulch]

im not sure about that

[terse bronze]

When you have a lance you're ok

[karmic mulch]

i enjoy neck protection

[coral path]

A lot of people do

But drip matters most imo

[terse bronze]

Also bro like the crushing majority of helmets in history did leav the face open so it's fine, I'm sure i could also use a bevor if i'd want but i like unrestricted breathing

[terse bronze]

the neck is protected with a gorget

[coral path]

Yeah. More mail n stuffs

[coral path]

dude has a beautiful gorget

[terse bronze]

that's my 15thc dreamkit btw that I commissioned to camacurt

[coral path]

https://tenor.com/view/jonkler-jonkler-cart-the-jonkler-cart-the-cart-gif-16150588204208813818

BIFURCATED GAUNTLETS

hes got thos gauntlets on

[coral path]

https://tenor.com/view/hell-yeah-fuck-yeah-shoresy-jared-keeso-letterkenny-gif-2826651076292572203

shorsey reference btw

[robust tendon]

i love them

[coral path]

Elthien armory w

[void stream]

I love this kettle

ca. 1452 - 56 - Effigy of Melchior von Hirschhorn and Kunigunde von Oberstein

Altarpiece of Saint Vincent St. Vincent at the stake by Jaume Huguet, c.1455-1460

the last pic goes hard 🔥

[terse bronze]

yes mr capwell we see the fit

[coral path]

I like these photos

[terse bronze]

indeed

[coral path]

Tom Biliter is so cool

Is any of his stuff actually for sale?

[slate mulch]

"kill that guy"

[hollow helm]

Sallet?

The way the edge curve towards the ear it's almost certainly isn't a skullcap

[wise oxide]

👋

[vocal vale]

yeah

[restive geyser]

I need help in Halfsword chat, again sire 😭

[vocal vale]

bring me there

[restive geyser]

I feel like getting expensive armor made by a Smith, and going into a Buhurt is a crime.

[zenith forge]

this is super awesome

I need to practice leather working and look into learning forging

[zenith forge]

seems more like a skullcap to me

kinda like this

[weak halo]

That's supposed to be a nasal

[weak halo]

I'd say more than likely a sallet, yeah

[zenith forge]

It was the first thing I thought of is a skull cap

[weak halo]

Here are some with rondels

[zenith forge]

Yeah like that, but with a taller peak and ornamentation

[steep yoke]

Sallet with rondels goes so hard

[weak halo]

Very

[slate mulch]

war forks are so peak

[steep yoke]

what about war sporks

[slate mulch]

isnt that just a wide partizan

[steep yoke]

Arent you a wide partizan

[slate mulch]

atleast buy me dinner first

christ

[steep yoke]

McDonald's dollar menu it is

[restive geyser]

from the back, he looks like the guy in the annoucements video

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1082232813698424884/1428064917998538762/EastTower4.gif

can't believe he playable

[solid bronze]

you'll get to customize your willlie in the full release

[restive geyser]

ik

i am just making a joke because they look similar

[solid bronze]

oh mb

[coral path]

he needs curlier hair

and a very nice iberian cuirass

[prisma raven]

Hi

ca. 1475-1480 - 'Resurrection, Altarpiece of the Dominicans' (Martin Schongauer & workshop or circle), Église des Dominicains, Colmar, Musée Unterlinden, Colmar, dép. Haut-Rhin, France

[sullen charm]

YES!!!!!!!! Alongside cervellieres with rondels and other similar helmets

[restive geyser]

That's the most badass looking armor I've ever seen in my life wtf

[young spade]

I wonder if we Will be able to change the size of our Willie

[solid bronze]

Yes we will get too change the size of willie's willie

[coral path]

really like this leg harness

[weak halo]

Me too, very sexy

[weak halo]

This one as well

I love how slim it is

[coral path]

ya i like my italian stuff ig

nice sabatons tho

[weak halo]

What I really like are early 15th century harnesses

I'll post some arms real quick in #1287593473217790034

[coral path]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/dJbFOhwX0OE

[void stream]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/hEMLhVyhu4U

you forgot this beauty here as well

[coral path]

classic

[void stream]

Even if it's a classic, it's always necessary to show it again lol

[coral path]

very true. its relevant 😂

do we know his next project?

[void stream]

I also love the snailet that he made

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/_EGFM7xS3cU

[coral path]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuTkBOOMcuI

I think this is next

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=25260153236988194&set=pb.100002605970423.-2207520000&type=3

[vivid solar]

I can only imagine dude waddling around in these like flippers

[silver grotto]

Does anyone know of any extant cuirasses with these sort of short, rounded tassets?

Or any other pictoral evidence

(Ca. 1480)

[terse bronze]

?

this one is from 1502

c. 1480-1490

[coral path]

Gonna repost some camacurt art

[terse bronze]

if i may just repost it in higher res

[restive geyser]

I need spurs in my life

[restive geyser]

I didn't even notice the poleaxe axe piece

That's cool

[restive geyser]

https://youtu.be/igaQww59NY0

the guy in blue was just bullying the longsword

Neyman Fencing stuff

[slate mulch]

comically droopy sabatons

[restive geyser]

Imagine being kicked by it

[slate mulch]

if it didnt crumble or crunch up like tin foil ? ow

[prisma raven]

Old drawing, I don't like how the silhouette of the harness turned out, especially the cuirass

[prisma raven]

variant

I like this one better tbh

[void stream]

Where is camacurt

i need iberian armor

i need good references

please

I would be grateful if you could send me some images.

oh thanks

[lone osprey]

https://www.khm.at/en/artworks/harnischbrust-schiftbrust-372233-1 now thought to be later but it is nice

Yeah and the devs even include the Thun rondel chin guard in their official art so theyre clearly a bit flexible

[prisma raven]

Hi

[coral path]

new camacurt drawing?!

[restive geyser]

there is a lot of armory we see in the art

i am excited for it all

mail shirts, chaperon's, coifs, and the stuff even even see like Livery coats, and orles and plumes

[coral path]

Hochaltar Stadtpfarrkirche St. Jakob, Rothenburg ob der Tauber, fertiggestellt 1466, Detail, Friedrich Herlin

Detail of Rothenburg ob der Tauber (Marktplatz) Ca.1466 by Friedrich Herlin (he's believed to have been from the town itself)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO3WrH56iWA

very interesting vid

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/3f6mgfwIbnQ

[coral path]

comparison to modern day Rothenburg ob der Tauber Marktplatz

[lone osprey]

Wow thats impressive in comparison

How much it retains mostly the same layout

[coral path]

Im sure they're all different buildings but still, the layout is very similar

[restive geyser]

Reminds me of before and after images of ww2

I think the most interesting part of these examples

Is that sometimes

Nothing changes

Sometimes the museum is just the city or town where people live

[coral path]

Graham Turner looks dope

[vivid solar]

Graham Turner is my GOAT

Phenomenal artist AND jouster

[coral path]

Awesome sallets on the right ngl

Articulated gorgets mentioned

[prisma raven]

yup

Also some nice scheckes

[coral path]

I like the color of the blue one

[prisma raven]

1460-1470 Flanders, KBR ms. 9967 - La Belle Hélène de Constantinople

1470-1480, France, BnF Français 585

[slate mulch]

i wonder what was going thru the heads of scribes back then, like how do you even come up with ts

[quaint shore]

probably a lack of anything to do and a screwed idea of prespective

[slate mulch]

o yea fair enough

[quaint shore]

yah

[void stream]

1458-1480 - 'Resurrection of Christ' (Tomás Giner), Zaragoza, Museu Frederic Marès, Barcelona, Spain

[prisma raven]

my favorite

15th century France, BNf Fr. 33
Skirts

Anonymous
Saint Michael
15th Century
Hispano-Flemish Gothic Panel Painting
Museum of Navarre

[void stream]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/1xzU4b1tkDM

[coral path]

This dudes mail shirt

[void stream]

I lowkey want to play with my character like the first image

Just a breastplate and a kettle with eyes slits and also a chainmail shirt

and a halberd

or a war flail

[coral path]

Look at this jolly mf

He's got those jack chains on

[latent drift]

if i were to get a kit i want somthin like the guy on the second image

[coral path]

His kettle and mail shirt is my favorite part tbh

[vivid solar]

The alternating colours of lances is just artistic license right

[restive geyser]

This is honestly a good kit for like a "poor" soldier look

[prisma raven]

I guess so idk

[restive geyser]

honestly, this weird thing with like

making lances colorful

is seemingly common

[prisma raven]

Yeah

[restive geyser]

1244-1254

making lances random colors, was the shit

for sure

1250, england

[prisma raven]

I think I misunderstood you lol. I meant Yeah lances used to be painted in very colorful ways

[restive geyser]

yeah, i am also just bringing up examples of this

even in basic spears

they always made them "abnormal" colors

making the horse red was always common in a lot of art

they likely did this for brown horses

and the blue means white or grey

yeah, chestnut

chestnut is also considered a name for brown

[royal wave]

what is this shield that they're all wearing? it kind of resembles an ecranche but obviously it must be something else

[restive geyser]

Holy shit its half sword!!

1410 paris, france.

Some jupons i am pretty sure

[prisma raven]

I don't know their exact name
They are Burgundian pikemen; perhaps the ordinances mention the name of the type of shield

[restive geyser]

1401-1450, Germany.

Siege stuff, flail, and some kind of Halberd and weird looking threshing flail(?)

Vrysoun are pretty cool, praying we see them alongside Cloth bevors.

1410, France. Some heraldry patterns of England

the other picture is 1400-1450, also Vrysouns alongside some Hounskull bascinets

oh, and Mordschlag

[sullen charm]

What's the caps in black and red?

[restive geyser]

Mail aprons

1418, Erfurt Germany.

[steep yoke]

just a floating head chillin

[restive geyser]

yeah fr

[steep yoke]

medieval art is so weird

I mean all art is weird but

[restive geyser]

1420-1430, germany.

Another mail apron, and a sickass helmet ornament

[steep yoke]

Goddamn medieval art is weird

[steep yoke]

How is bros helmet attached

[restive geyser]

if i recall

some people attached helmets with a rope string

which is likely what is trying to be protrayed here. but someone can correct this

[steep yoke]

oh so it wouldn't fall off in combat/easy to carry around

fall off i mean fall to the ground fully

[prisma raven]

caps?

[restive geyser]

Frogmouth helmet

1400-1425, there is some sooner examples.

Paris, France

[restive geyser]

likely, but I could very much be wrong

[restive geyser]

he referring to these

those caps

[prisma raven]

oh those are just "acorn hats"

[restive geyser]

ah, so i was right?

if its on calvary, i going to assume they did this so the helmet doesn't fly off somehow from the force of being thrown off a horse

[robust tendon]

pretty sure it's just so they can take it off when they don't need it

[restive geyser]

Still cool regardless

In like 3000, someone is going to find pictures of people in medieval gear and think that medieval combat stayed ever since the 1000s.

[coral path]

https://caramel1345.artstation.com/projects/obEOgO

check out this guys stuff

[coral path]

Yes, mail aprons were depicted in the late 14th century

You can find a lot more here: https://pin.it/2uac5IIzy

[vocal vale]

proud to say i have dueled this woman and fought with her sword

[outer summit]

This goes so hard

[terse bronze]

Some croissants / goussets

quote from Mathieu d'Escouchy's continuation of Monstrelet's Chronicle :

Et lors courrurent comme dessus encores ung seul coup, auquel l'Anglois feri de sa lanche ledit Loys, tout dedens au dessoubz du bras et au vif de son harnas, par faulte d'avoir ung croissant ou gousset; duquel coup il fut sy douloureusement navré, que assez brief de temps apprez il en morut. = ESCOUCHY (Mathieu d').-

Chronique. Nouvelle édition revue sur les manuscrits et publiée avec notes et éclaircissements pour la Société de l'Histoire de France par G. Du Fresne de Beaucourt, t. 1.- Paris : Ve J. Renouard, 1863 (Société de l'Histoire de France). t. 1, c. 1461-14, 109"

🇬🇧 :

"... a single blow, with which the Englishman struck with his lance the aforesaid Louis, all within from underneath the arm and to his quick (au vif) through his harness, because he failed to have a croissant or gusset; of which he was most sorrowfully hurt, and after a brief enough time died."

[terse bronze]

#TotalBurgundianDeath

[restive geyser]

Swiss Confederacy grindset!!! RAAAH

[restive geyser]

Cool ass plumes

[thorny otter]

They are based on these, which were attributed to francesco de cattanai. Some 19th cent restoration happened to them, with the points of the back "wings" being grounded away

Rondels basically work as a reinforce there

Currently they are in Royal Armouries in Leeds.

[terse bronze]

victorians grinding shit up just cuz

[thorny otter]

No idea why. Maybe the goal was to make them more resemblent to the "round smooth" idea of italian armour?

Supposedly there was also a fake roping attached to the edge

[robust tendon]

wings as in something like this?

[void stream]

beautiful

[thorny otter]

more like continuation of the flutes to form the sort of bat-wing shipe

like this

[robust tendon]

I see

[thorny otter]

More pics of this reconstruction, while we are at it. By Ondřej Kašpar

[quaint shore]

Really maximizing the shit he can put on his sallet

[terse bronze]

need a back rondel

[lethal adder]

crown of rondels

[void stream]

All that's missing are the rivets for added charm.

[lethal adder]

tegulated helmet? its actually a sallet covered completely in rondels.

rondel bevor

fuck it cover the whole damn harness in rondels

[acoustic rock]

👋

[void stream]

woah

how many rondels do you want??

yes

[terse bronze]

could technically fit more

I do remember a rondel on the cuirass at some point

[void stream]

I also saw this one here

[steep yoke]

That little plate in the back is cool

Love that armor in general tbh looks very cool

[weak halo]

This guy has very good taste

The sallet is 🔥

[steep yoke]

friendly reminder

[robust tendon]

what are they throwing

[thorny otter]

jesus i made to a weird slideshow on tiktok with suboptimal stuff

[robust tendon]

grenades?

[prisma raven]

https://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Paulus_Kal_Fechtbuch_(Cgm_1507)

[terse bronze]

yes

i believe

[robust tendon]

that bassinet looks fucked up in the second to last picture

[coral path]

Wonder how many times this was posted here 🤣

1480

[lethal adder]

like 5 of those are full plate just with a jupon over it or with three quarters arm harness

i do think half harness is very nice looking doebeit

[robust tendon]

nice demi greaves

[vivid solar]

The aura

[terse bronze]

1450, Jacopo Bellini

[restive geyser]

hear me out: berets with plumes

[bright token]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/26060038984/in/album-72157603168542128

the pic

interesting chest strap lol

[coral path]

Good question, but i don't think so

[remote fulcrum]

not really, it's main purpose is identification, not protection

[restive geyser]

uhhhh no.

Identification is supposed to be huge to prevent friendly fire, you're fighting in large scale combat where everyone is wearing basically the same color of armor and almost identical heraldry colors, even if the thing shown isn't identification and its something else.

identification is a big thing in wars, always really has been. We wear uniforms for this reason

[vocal vale]

almost identical heraldry colors ?

there are effigies that show a similar scale

[restive geyser]

the colors were the same besides the symbols on them, correct?

[vocal vale]

no

[robust tendon]

not true at all, there was no real uniform color iirc

some soldiers may be wearing the heraldry of their lord but it's not universal

[restive geyser]

On the uniform bit i was referring to modern, and why we wear it now. The heraldry is what i assumed to be basic identification

[remote fulcrum]

Personal heraldry was a frequent embellishment on armor, after all its not merely winning the battle that was a priority for many knights but also winning glory

[gilded kite]

The new ARROWS vs ARMOUR video is looking specifically at 1450s era armor and has some surprising results both in points where you might expect arrows to be more effective than they were, and points where they blew away expectations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFFgcTzCvMo

(There's another video they released a couple days ago dealt more with hard numbers)

[vocal vale]

i wouldn’t call it frequent

[remote fulcrum]

it was frequent among the kind of people who could afford the kind of armor depicted

shields, badges or other embelshiments depicting a person's or a family's coat of arms were quite common among the upper classes, particularly in a tournament context like the game depicts

things which made a particular person or group stand out were also common, and useful for both command and control purposes and general battlefield identification

[coral path]

Francois L'Archeveque's inspo

[remote fulcrum]

we always seem to forget that the medievals loved color. They painted everything in garish tacky colors

[vocal vale]

i am fairly certain that 90% of the time the identification comes from being in formation under a banner

[remote fulcrum]

counterpoint

[vocal vale]

one example from the previous century that i’ve already seen that is contextually irrelevant !?!?

[remote fulcrum]

surcoats, crests and livery were all common ways for forces to identify each other

[vocal vale]

if you look through any 15th century manuscript 90% of fully harnessed people will be completely unidentifiable

surcoats wane, elaborate battlefield crests wane, and livery coats don’t show up often enough to consider them a ubiquitous method of identification

[remote fulcrum]

you mean like this iluminated manuscript?

[vocal vale]

oh yeah i’m seeing a lot of that personally decorated armor you were talking about

[remote fulcrum]

The liveries on the horses are all relatively identifiable

[void stream]

Adoration of the Magi, tapestry woven in Brussels, circa 1476-1488 (Sens Cathedral, France)

[remote fulcrum]

much of what medieval armies used as identifiers wasn't made of durable material, or was intentionally disposable like bandanas or the like worn about the arm or neck

[karmic mulch]

nearly 12 hours late but this is majestic

[vocal vale]

nice reflections

[vocal vale]

where are you getting this from man

[remote fulcrum]

bandanas were commonly used for identification at sea during boarding actions, there's no reason to believe this to be a particularly naval tradition, ad hoc forces like militias doubtless used such methods of identifying one another when more fomral organization wasn't available

surcoats were usually made from linen or wool, not things that keep well, and shields were most often made of painted wood, even if the wood survived the paint very rarely did

[vocal vale]

“where are you getting this from” i meant what are you referencing

i know the surcoat and shield thing. again, most men at arms don’t wear surcoats during this period, and most men at arms don’t use shields during this period either

[remote fulcrum]

so we rely on depictions liek this one that is relatively contemporary, where we see various persons and their horses decked out in their personal heraldry

or this medieval depiction of a joust, again, personal identification is at a premium

[remote fulcrum]

most men at arms aren't using full coats of plates, that's something that is still out of reach for all but the landed nobility

[vocal vale]

mf everybody but one dude in this image is in plain colors

[rigid zinc]

weren't men at arms the ones that have to brake enemy lines? i Thought they used to have more heavy armor

like, armored horses and all that stuff

[robust tendon]

men-at-arms are nobility

usually

[rigid zinc]

yeah, that's what i'm saying

they should be right protected right?

[robust tendon]

or at the least, wealthy people expected to be able to arm themselves well (as in full harness) to fight as heavy cavalry

[rigid zinc]

excatly

exactly* xd

[remote fulcrum]

usually minor, often unlanded nobility

[robust tendon]

knights are men at arms but not all men at arms were knights

[rigid zinc]

what

[robust tendon]

basically all men at arms would be armed like a knight is what im saying

[rigid zinc]

ahhh okay

yeah cuz, if your mission is to brake enemy lines you should be wearing heavy armor and stuff like that

you can't go like the men at arms in the game hashahsa

[remote fulcrum]

depends heavily on region and period. Forces like the Condottieri would often wear a breastplate and pauldrons over a chain shirt and coif, in eastern europe those men at arms who could not afford a horse would often fight as pikemen, and in italy they would often fight as halbrediers or with sword and shield.

[vocal vale]

the game is historically accurate

[vocal vale]

men at arms means a combatant on horseback

[robust tendon]

don't it mean specifically heavy cavalry

cause there's light cavalrymen as well and those arent maa afaik

[vocal vale]

a condottieri was also not in any form of standardized institution

[vocal vale]

i think the designation is that generally a man at arms can afford multiple horses

[remote fulcrum]

in england and france yes. In other parts of europe it could refer to any proffesional soldier serving in the retinue of a noble

[robust tendon]

ic

[remote fulcrum]

edward I specifically decreed that all men at arms should fight on horseback, but that was far from universal

[vocal vale]

i have genuinely never seen a source that refers to anyone other than a horseback combatant as a man at arms

and also your claim about italian “men at arms” being halberdiers and sword-and-shield seems dubious to me

[remote fulcrum]

there are a few accounts of agincourt which record the english specifically cutting down their lances to be used as pikes

dismounted men at arms were frequently employed in the late hundred years war when conditions were unsuited to a cavalry charge

[gilded kite]

Can you please actually provide some sources instead of vague statements?

[vocal vale]

chewbacca method

[remote fulcrum]

Jean de Waurin I believe makes mention of it, he's one major source for info about the late HYW, though I first heard it in a lecture at uni, I don't know what the prof's source on that was

[vocal vale]

but then again what does any of that have to do with man at arms being a social status related to affording horses

[weak halo]

It could apply if the guys ride to the battlefield on horse and then dismount, wouldn't it? 🤔

Iirc English knights did that

[weak halo]

Ooh tegulated armor

[remote fulcrum]

the fact that they fought dismounted regularly most certainly means they weren't only shock cavalry. I know the game is intended to depict 1450 ish, and virtually no institution was completely uniform accross all of europe

[restive geyser]

I had to do some rechecking on paintings, and yeah Sam is correct

telling who is who is hard

when every fucker on the battlefield was a skittle

banners were often used

and its illustrated a ton in paintings

unless the men look liked this

[robust tendon]

come to think of it i only really see heraldry on kings in ms

[remote fulcrum]

medieval art is also anti perspective, for religious reasons, so it can be a bit hard to tell what is going on

[weak halo]

Most of the time the enemies were the guys walking in the opposite direction

[restive geyser]

funny enough, the painting above proves you correct lmfao

thats supposed to show a king

[weak halo]

Or screaming in foreign language lol

[vocal vale]

i want to add to this saying that the wealth status of your harness and belongings makes your word valuable, you don’t need a big badge of your heraldry if you’re rich enough and can have your surviving men and cohorts attest to your identity

[robust tendon]

yea im just thinking about all the times i've seen heraldry and it's almost always on some dude wearing a crown, so seems to be limited to high ranking folk at least

but thats just from my memory

[vocal vale]

being under a banner is enough in a battle

[robust tendon]

other armored figures just have plain colors or patterns

[remote fulcrum]

that also applies to all the english nobility in the HYW

[restive geyser]

yes

a lot

[vocal vale]

it’s always somebody who if everything is in chaos is worth rallying your final force around, so it’s usually a marshal or a king or an acting commander or whatever

[robust tendon]

makes a lot of sense yea

[restive geyser]

yeah, i see a lot of art of some kind of x soldier leading a charge with some form of heraldry to show them as a sort of "follow me and listen to me"

either it be the lion to depict england or the Flur to depict france

[remote fulcrum]

the cross of saint george was also a common motif

but we don't have much surviving in terms of artifacts, and depictions of the era are... well medieval art

[weak halo]

Skittle wars

[rigid zinc]

did men at arms did not sometimes wear gorgets or pauldrons?

[remote fulcrum]

they wore what they could afford

[weak halo]

What

[remote fulcrum]

they had to arm and armor themselves generally

[rigid zinc]

okay i understand now

but in a job as risky as that

i think they would have to be VERY WELL protected

[restive geyser]

Here a source to support this btw
1415, france

[weak halo]

It's one of the least risky jobs tbh, the more money you gave the more chances you have to be taken hostage

[remote fulcrum]

battle is dangerous, but a coat of plates could cost as much as a year's salary for a proffesional soldier

[rigid zinc]

really??

dayum

[restive geyser]

1415, france.

[rigid zinc]

yeah, plates were not cheap

[remote fulcrum]

knights generally didn't fight with the intention of killing one another, it was much better to take an enemy hostage and ransom them back

[rigid zinc]

some of those bascinets are interesting

[rigid zinc]

yeah? well thats curious

yeah makes sense

and then set a price for the rescue

[remote fulcrum]

mercenaries on the other hand, they were more than happy to finish off a wounded foe, they get paid either way

[rigid zinc]

yeah that's true

[restive geyser]

its a bit weird to see some bascinets around the 15th century, but i assume they were around till likely 1480s or maybe a bit later?

its hard to pinpoint the complete decline of bascinet helmets and their variants into the 15th century and beyond, but generally it seems the bascinets decline began likely around 1450

[rigid zinc]

i thought knigts were more like a tank in the middle ages

[remote fulcrum]

that's somewhat accurate, when the terrain allows

[rigid zinc]

like somebody designed just to protect and fight back when needed

[restive geyser]

as a lot of sources that show bascinets

read as

"1401-1450"

but there is SOME sources that show it a bit later

[remote fulcrum]

A cavalry charge could break a line without ever making contact, it was terrifying

[rigid zinc]

why did bascinets began to decline? were sallet-gorget a better option?

[robust tendon]

bassinets, at least the other forms (not grand bassinets) fall off mostly into the mid 15th century ish

[restive geyser]

sallets and kettles and other helmets offered better visibility and maneuverability

comapred to bascinets

[rigid zinc]

i mean i would shit myself if i see a guy coming thowards me with a fully plate armor and a fully protected horse ahshahsa

[robust tendon]

it's not really that bassinets are bad helmets or inferior to sallets i think its more that they just fell out of fashion

[weak halo]

I have a theory that onion top bascinets evolved into sallets

[rigid zinc]

it makes a lot of sense

[robust tendon]

armor is not really a linear evolution

[remote fulcrum]

Wear a bascinet and you'll see why they declined

[weak halo]

If you look at one without an aventail they really look similar

[rigid zinc]

i do

dw ahsahsa

but they offered more protection than a sallet and gorget

i think

[restive geyser]

Ehhh, i think the effectiveness dropped tbh.

From what i have read, it just seems a lot of soldiers prefered the sallet due to just it being sort of better in what it could offer than the Bascinet

[rigid zinc]

armet and bascinets cover all your head and rest in the chest/neck

[restive geyser]

which idk the legitmacy of this doe

[restive geyser]

Gorgets, bevors do the same

[remote fulcrum]

99% of the time on the battlefield is spent not getting hit in the head, so a helmet that is adequately protective but slightly more comfortable is a good trade

[rigid zinc]

yeah, but not the back of the neck

so they implementes chainmail there i think

[robust tendon]

theyre a perfectly good type of helmet and the sallet isn't necessarily better

[rigid zinc]

implemented*

[weak halo]

You're not supposed to have enemies behind you tbh

[rigid zinc]

if you are in a 2v1 situation

maybe you have some trouble back there

[remote fulcrum]

then you give up tbh

[rigid zinc]

also stabbing to the neck can be fatal

[weak halo]

Especially not in pike lines that became popular in the mid 1400s

[rigid zinc]

i mean, something like 2 soldiers vs a knight

[restive geyser]

to me, i honestly think the bascinet is pretty cool

I would love to see it in half sword, but that would be a oddity

[rigid zinc]

IT IS pretty cool

[remote fulcrum]

you still are probably boned, if you've been unhorsed and surrounded, your best chance is to surrender

[restive geyser]

since by the time this game takes palce

(1470ish) the bascinet would likely already be fairly rare

[remote fulcrum]

seeing moderately old pieces wouldn't be THAT uncommon, a lot of armor was passed down father to son, or looted on the battlefield

[rigid zinc]

i mean, a knight is literally a guy covered in plates

[weak halo]

1380-1420 best period

[rigid zinc]

you most likely have a chance

[remote fulcrum]

and a soldier is a guy with a knife who can stab you in the armpit

[rigid zinc]

that's why you have to fight hashasa

[remote fulcrum]

especially if his buddy is distracting you

[restive geyser]

if we assume the bascinet started the decline around 1450

[robust tendon]

declines earlier than that

[remote fulcrum]

no that's a very good reason not to fight, most soldiers would respect a yield

[rigid zinc]

i mean there was chainmail in the armpit afaik

[robust tendon]

honestly i don't really see them past like 1430

[weak halo]

Great bascinets endured

[robust tendon]

yeah but not other types

[weak halo]

Sadly

[restive geyser]

ehh, its hard doe. There is some art that depicts it a TAD bit later, like 1435. Its what i said earlier, its hard to fully calculate the true decline of the bascinet

[remote fulcrum]

get him on the ground and stab him in the armpit or groin was basically the main way to kill a knight for anyone without a specialized anti armor weapon

[restive geyser]

i honestly think the safe answer is like

[robust tendon]

you can say they decline leading into the mid 15th

[restive geyser]

1440

[rigid zinc]

it's really hard to take a knight to the ground

[restive geyser]

the bascinet still saw tournament use, right?

[robust tendon]

i mean great bassinets did yes

[weak halo]

-# threatening brass music

[remote fulcrum]

It's also hard to take medieval depictions at face value, because why would you draw 5 different kinds of helmets rather than just drawing one over and over

[vocal vale]

now this is how i know you’re pulling this out of your ass man

can you name a single source of armor being passed down from father to son?

[robust tendon]

also you would not see bassinets in the time period of the game

full stop you wouldn't

[rigid zinc]

i can thell that cuz i wore an armor hahsahs, you are like a tank. At least, the one that i used to wore was a replication one, and friends of mine tried a lot of things to me. Trying to get me on the ground was pretty difficult

[robust tendon]

excepting great bassinets

[rigid zinc]

DAYUM🥀

[prisma raven]

Just here to say that bascinets without aventail are kino, gn

[weak halo]

The low angle always makes me chuckle

[vocal vale]

they decline dramatically after 1420, past that they’re mostly used as an artistic device for antiquity

[robust tendon]

true

[vocal vale]

but i’m curious to see the later artworks you’ve seen

[restive geyser]

eh, I wouldn't mind seeing JUST those in half sword. but still i feel like bascinets being added would sort of make a gateway to rare shit.

[rigid zinc]

why is this so funny tho

[restive geyser]

here the thing, the sources i found have a such a huge fucking timeframe that its wild

[robust tendon]

it would be cool if they made a 1390s-1420s dlc or something

[restive geyser]

Frank(?) in a trailer showing off orles

said half sword is a possible trilogy

so odds are

we may see other timeframes of medieval combat and warfare

[remote fulcrum]

the visby armor finds are pretty old, and shows signs of repair, so it's entirely likely that you'd inherit some pieces of armor, particularly if it is expensive or customised in some way

[robust tendon]

orles/torses are also a 15th century thing, come to think of it i don't think they were a thing earlier

[restive geyser]

Mordschlag posted this in gen for anyone wanting to smite me

"For a first installment"

[rigid zinc]

well guys it was a pretty good conversation, but i'm going to sleep. Goodnight everyone!

[restive geyser]

this is def going to be a series

[robust tendon]

but maybe ive just not seen any references for earlier torses

[rigid zinc]

wWOW

[restive geyser]

actually wait

this isn't for orles

but i remember something

[vocal vale]

the visby armor is representative of a lower class of people with access to lower class armor, its also a fringe case of a civil militia

plenty of expensive armor shows signs of repair too

your argument for the inheritance of the armor is anecdotal at best, if it is expensive or customized it’s tailored to you and not your son

if you could afford expensive and decorated armor so could your son

your wealth does not disappear into your equipment, it is proportional

[weak halo]

Now imagine it with this ominous song from F&H
https://youtu.be/gQe15F2Nmhc?si=FO_aTOILONkmcRbC

[restive geyser]

This statue is depicting an bascinet with a orle, i think this statue is from 1450? its a tomb statue so ofc this could be made by the artist because cool but idk

[vocal vale]

looks 1430 to me

[remote fulcrum]

not neccesarily many noble families lost their fortunes through poor management, famine, or merely by the expenses of maintaining their lifestyle

repairing or re-fitting armor we know was common, there are even allowances set out for the re-tooling of older armor pieces

[restive geyser]

it could be, and the year was likely a mistake on the behalf of whoever found the original source of the statue. Which is something that could be considered in certain scenarios like this, but again idk the full legitimacy of this

[vocal vale]

this is the same exact hypothetical that everyone else without a decent point tries to play; what source do you have for a family losing their wealth and passing on their armor? isn’t it more likely, you think, that it would go through the typical process of sale, recycle, reimbursement rather than pinching pennies on one of the only situations you don’t want to pinch pennies on?

[restive geyser]

Sellsword arts made a very funny point regarding this claim that armory was passed down

"If the stuff is in good condition, odds are it wasn't likely used." he was referring to the sword is passed down from to me by my father trope, but it still applies to just about anything rly

[vocal vale]

repairing or refitting armor like a breastplate or an arm harness from a feasible same “generation” of gear, not anything like a bascinet in 1450 where these important areas’ evolutions are understood well and effective in their usage

[vocal vale]

what?

[restive geyser]

he was mostly referring to swords

[vivid solar]

Holy PEAK what the FUCK

[vocal vale]

and he’s not quoting someone sarcastically?

[restive geyser]

Nah

[vocal vale]

💔

[restive geyser]

what scares me, is these aren't customizable

[remote fulcrum]

a helmet's a helmet, if you're short on cash, and your dad has an old helmet and greaves around, why wouldn't you use that rather than go out and buy a whole new set

[vocal vale]

this is why he’s an expert in sword fighting and not historical technology and culture

[restive geyser]

the orles shown are just Bohemia and France, i hope the orles in the game can be customized color wise and stuff

[vocal vale]

because you can sell it or recycle it to have something up-to-date made; why in the first place is someone “short on cash” trying to get into a soldiering business?

professional soldiers are the majority of the time upper middle class, full stop

[remote fulcrum]

and the bascinet is not THAT far out of common use in the mid 15th century, particularly in places like bohemia or poland

[restive geyser]

also, this one has the funny flappy bit

[remote fulcrum]

feudal obligation frequently required service, regardless of one's financial situation

[robust tendon]

the only thing close to that i've seen in depictions is this one 16th century or very late 15th century swedish depiction of peasant soldiers

[vocal vale]

feudal obligation largely stopped being “you’re on my property you fight for me” in the fourteenth century my man

[remote fulcrum]

what region is the game set in?

[restive geyser]

germany

south germany

[remote fulcrum]

I assumed HRE but that was just a guess

[robust tendon]

hre territories i think but it will include armor styles from all over west europe

[remote fulcrum]

my interest is more eastern/central europe, so the norms may have been quite different in western europe

[vocal vale]

show me an adequately dated 1450 depiction of a bascinet in bohemia that isn’t making a point to depict something ancient

[prisma raven]

Also irish

[robust tendon]

1502

[prisma raven]

Love the baggy pants

[robust tendon]

true, forgot about that

[restive geyser]

this is literally the only thing i have, 1430-1440, Czech

[prisma raven]

#art-🎨 message hehe

[robust tendon]

guessing this is a religious/crucifixion piece and therefore this is likely just trying to show 'this happened a long time ago'

you can't even really see em tbh

just the top

[restive geyser]

Bingo!

[remote fulcrum]

with medieval art it's hard to tell, it's not until the renaissance that "depicting the world as it actually appears" becomes the norm

[fast pagoda]

Yea they dont show what it mightve actually been they show something in everyones mind to mean "ts is old"

[vocal vale]

the spiky clubs and huge sticks are usually a giveaway that they’re meant to depict evil uncivilized people with old gear

[fast pagoda]

And since bascinets were on the way out they are old and people would know this

[vocal vale]

plus i mean the shield literally has a face on it lol that’s like artistic device number one for antiquity

[restive geyser]

I do have this, 1430, poland. but thats like the only thing i have that isn't religious and thats the earliest i can find truthfully

this is Austria, 1430 too.

but idk about this one..

this one gives me religious vibes

[vocal vale]

looks to be showing people intended to be from further east, no? flag with a vantablack figure, white crescent on red flag?

[restive geyser]

the earliest you can find, is 1430

[restive geyser]

I honestly don't know

the flag does resemble the ottoman military flag at the time if i recall

[robust tendon]

thats my thought as well

[restive geyser]

but idk how the hell they would know what that is

i can't find much on the source

i would love to answer this but i can't

[remote fulcrum]

Not long after that is the hussite wars, who are iconic in the late medieval mind for their salets and wagon forts

[vocal vale]

well clearly they don’t and are kind of making things up lol

[robust tendon]

you mean before? the hussite wars began in 1419

[fast pagoda]

its the adoration of the magi

the three wise men

[vocal vale]

(east)

[fast pagoda]

Yes

[restive geyser]

@vocal vale @robust tendon Its in a church, its religious. Still a fairly strange painting

[fast pagoda]

but also in particular ancient

[robust tendon]

i dont think 1430 is too crazy to still see bassinets in some regions but definitely very much in decline by then

[remote fulcrum]

the ultraquists defection gets a lot of attention, and that doesn't happen until 32

[restive geyser]

this painting is also located in that same church, the chalice is the same

[vocal vale]

are you familiar with the adoration of the magi

[remote fulcrum]

but yes mostly before, most depicted battles are later in the conflict though, particularly in eastern (polish mostly) sources

[prisma raven]

Ye, there are some depictions of bascinets in Iberia from the 1430s but again in biblical stuff with very allantica/heroic touches

[restive geyser]

are you referring to a Pluteja?

the little

spike wall thingies

[remote fulcrum]

there are the little ones but hte hussites also used like, chariot thigns

these things

[prisma raven]

Some early "sallets"

[restive geyser]

this is cool

[restive geyser]

Not rly familiar with this, not very familiar with much things originating from Bohemia

[vocal vale]

it’s from a later copy of bellifortis

actually no that’s one of the earlier ones looking at it again

[restive geyser]

those sound familiar

wasn't there a version used that has a like

iron port view

and it was just a giant wall

This

[remote fulcrum]

more modern depiction of a similar thing

crossbowmen or early firearms pulled like a chariot

[restive geyser]

1437, Vienna. Something similar

[remote fulcrum]

combining early firearms with the stable firing position and mobility of a wagon fort made the hussites a terror to the heavy cavalry of the day, and many depictions of them feature sallet like helmets which were starting to become the norm

[vocal vale]

it’s a copy of the same manuscript

[restive geyser]

Ah alright

these are a type of "Siege vehicle" if i recall

[vocal vale]

yeah probably experimental like many compiled engineering books of the day

[restive geyser]

Alexander the great used something similar too i am pretty sure

[vocal vale]

bellifortis is full of weirdness

and jokes

[restive geyser]

These walls with spikes is just normal shit

and if they didn't use walls

they used this goofy ass shield

[coral path]

Yo I leave this channel for an hour or 2 and its popping off

Sick!

[vocal vale]

it’s not popping off in a good way dawg

[robust tendon]

unfortunately true

[remote fulcrum]

a similar depiction of the helmet can be seen in the contemporary depictions of the hungarian black army

[vocal vale]

had to put in overtime with all the slopmaxxing

[restive geyser]

1437, Austria!!

[fast pagoda]

iirc a good part of bellifortis is talking about what alexander the great and a lot of other good generals etc did back then

[coral path]

Nvm...

[vocal vale]

and also still bellifortis

[robust tendon]

the armor in bellifortis is good tho i think

[restive geyser]

even if the methods were.. kind of funny honestly. idc what anyone says, these experimental siege equipment will never NOT be funny

[robust tendon]

some cool stuff in there

[vocal vale]

yes

[remote fulcrum]

very cool cannon, impossible to aim, but very cool

Similar cannon from hungary, 1450s

[restive geyser]

i love how like

colorful the weapons are here

[remote fulcrum]

standardization is for suckers, gotta depict all the popular ones

[prisma raven]

The illustration is from the 16th C

[coral path]

I thought so

[restive geyser]

It was too clean lol

[remote fulcrum]

yes, but of a cannon created in the 1450s, and which actually survived somehow

[coral path]

Source?

[remote fulcrum]

book of armaments of Maximilian I

[restive geyser]

i can't for the life of me remember what year this art is from

[remote fulcrum]

early 1500s, lots of neat firearms shots, it's depicting the "elephant" guns of matthias corvinus

[robust tendon]

id wager a guess and say it’s mid 13th c

[restive geyser]

A lot of guns in Europe were mostly mount and use i am pretty sure, attached to like this wooden stick

[remote fulcrum]

the hungarians liked to float them on river barges

[restive geyser]

this is prob more of a exaggeration of what you would see.

but i am pretty sure stuff like this was the norm, i could be wrong and if i am someone correct me

[remote fulcrum]

The elephant guns were siege cannons, based on the ottoman grand bombards

[vocal vale]

usually a lot smaller

bellifortis is the only manuscript i can say ive seen that depicts such a comically large one

[coral path]

Let me repost this because its cool

[restive geyser]

Most guns were just mounted, Europe if i recall did have SOME and i mean SOME black powder like weapons that could be carried and non-mounted, but i think those were suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuper rare

and pretty shit

[remote fulcrum]

the hungarians were early embracers of firearms of all kinds, some sources even suggest as many as 1 in 5 fighting men used an arquebus

[vocal vale]

they could all be carried and non mounted, it just benefits your resources to have them mounted

and they weren’t shit for what they were

[remote fulcrum]

(not counting the pages who wheeled the shields arounds)

[restive geyser]

thanks for the correction, sire

[vocal vale]

i recommend checking out da vinci’s journals

[remote fulcrum]

da vinci's journals are full of stuff that didn't really exist

[vocal vale]

https://www.leonardodigitale.com/sfoglia/manoscritto-b-dell-institut-de-france/0046-v/

[lone osprey]

they were called Hauptstücken not elephant guns lol

the massive wall breakers that is

[restive geyser]

that kind of doesn't matter too much, da vinci drawings and concepts show us that then back then they had a understanding of what could be maybe plausible

[remote fulcrum]

the elephant guns were a specific series of guns created for corvinus

their form is indeed that of a hapstuucken

[vocal vale]

pretty damn certain that a 1480 illustration of a formation of mounted archers and gunners from a guy well beyond his means to go ahead and invent shit for them to be doing otherwise is fairly grounded

[restive geyser]

we still use da vinci drawings for stuff even now I am pretty sure

[remote fulcrum]

fair, I just take everything with a grain of salt from da vinci, it can be hard to seperate the fact from the fantasy

[vocal vale]

the sienese tradition on mounted gunners tracks well enough here for it to be considered a direct and more importantly real evolution of the italian triggerless handguns

[coral path]

New geschichstfenster vid 🔥

[remote fulcrum]

mounted crossbowmen were certainly in use in italy, so it's not so implausible that they were early adopters of firearms in the light cavalry role

[restive geyser]

how doe? Da vinci wasn't a fan fic writer, the guy was seriously smart and intelligent he knew what could be possible and he drew what he knew was possible

[remote fulcrum]

parthian tactics work in every era

[restive geyser]

like it or not, Da vinci was a smart mf

[remote fulcrum]

you can't have people lift over a dozen cannons and a big wooden shield for them

[restive geyser]

"Wife ain't going to draw herself, son."

[vocal vale]

mounted gunmen were without a doubt in use

[remote fulcrum]

stuff like thisis clearly a fantasy, and there's no evidence that even a prototype was ever produced

[vocal vale]

Orsini's host (not easy to keep synthetic):
In general:

• Men at arms (homini darme)
• and "infant(ery)s of foot" (fanti ad piedi)
  In details:
• Men at arms
  • Valets (saccomanni) [coustilliers, to think in French mode]
  • Mounted crossbowmen (cavalli [...] exercitati per balestri)
  • Servant (fameglio)
• Infantry (fanti)
  • Pages (paghe)
  • Crossbowmen (balestreri)
  • Gunners (scopectieri)
  • Pages dedicated to supplies (paghe de provisionati)
  • More pages (de conestaveli)
  • Sappers (guastaturi)
• Artillery etc
  (BNF It 958 10v)

[restive geyser]

uhhh dude, i said it like multiple times, these are concepts for what he at the time assumed was plausible and could be done, which uh might be crazy to know this but like

[restive geyser]

he was right

the idea of a vehicle with weapons

quite literally happened

not the same vision he had

but it happened regardless

[remote fulcrum]

yes, after the invention of the internal combustion engine, not a man powered one

[remote fulcrum]

ngl the rivets make me think that it'd be a huge pain to wear

[remote fulcrum]

everything would get caught on the friggin rivets

[coral path]

Wdym?

[remote fulcrum]

I can just see reaching up to put your visor down and getting your sleeve caught on a rivet and tearing your shirt

[restive geyser]

that doesn't mean anything, da vinci work inspired combat vehicles that we see today.

[robust tendon]

love gilded gorgets

dont rly see that too much

[remote fulcrum]

or trying to clean it, having the washcloth get caught on the rivet

[coral path]

Look at his scabbard and sidearm

[restive geyser]

Purse... I NEED IT

[coral path]

Beautiful pommel and guard

[robust tendon]

yeah very nice

[coral path]

Schecke looks sick too

[restive geyser]

i love the whole fit, not just certain parts. Beautiful color scheme too, black and white with a greyish plume

[vocal vale]

bit out of period

[remote fulcrum]

wtf are those spurs

idk if they're period, but they're gaudy af

[restive geyser]

Spurs are period accurate, they were usually worn by calvary,

[coral path]

THIS GUYS KASTENBRUST 🔥

[robust tendon]

thats based on this harness right? harness of ferdinand V

shame this is out of period its amazing

[remote fulcrum]

I didn't realise that wheeled spurs were common in the 15th century

[stoic marten]

dude is that armor from half sword?

[robust tendon]

nah

[coral path]

I wish

Its 1490

[robust tendon]

maybe we can see it if we get 1490s dlc..

[restive geyser]

1437, Vienna (same place from before.)

idc about the mail apron despite me loving them, MAIL SABATONS IS WHAT I WAS BORN FOR! RAH!

[vocal vale]

calvary is the hill Jesus was crucified on, cavalry are horse soldiers

[restive geyser]

oops

[vocal vale]

aplenty in italy around half sword’s time

[robust tendon]

italians liked their maille

[restive geyser]

Mail arpons and sabs, i pray for those

[robust tendon]

i don’t think maille aprons are in period but idk for sure

i wouldnt be surprised if they are

[coral path]

I've yet to see em

[restive geyser]

This is from the same time and place as before, this guy is wearing a quite "interesting" armet

[robust tendon]

from bellifortis iirc

very cool kit

[restive geyser]

yes, I am fairly certain

[coral path]

I want this brigandine

[robust tendon]

i like that rivet color

[coral path]

Amazing colors really

[vocal vale]

imo this is an early close helm

[restive geyser]

well, its cool thats for sure lol

[remote fulcrum]

would help with annoying toe stabs

[vocal vale]

that short nasal ridge shows up a lot in the trojan war manuscripts which notably portray plate gorgets and “z-axis” helmet mechanisms

[restive geyser]

1425-1450, South Netherlands. This is a quite interesting piece of work. Some cool stuff here too

[vocal vale]

err on 1425

[robust tendon]

yeah was gonna say

no way this is 1450 lol

[restive geyser]

the sources here a bit weird

the artist is from the 14th century

the manuscript says 15th century

[vocal vale]

his loot carried over to the 15th century update wipe

[restive geyser]

Doublet?

[vocal vale]

nice heels

[coral path]

Looks pretty thick for a doublet imo

[restive geyser]

yeah the sleeves are a bit overly large

[vocal vale]

this is a flemish artwork?

[coral path]

Im not too sure..

[vocal vale]

seems like it, especially with the wooden heels

their doublets tend to have larger profiles

notice it's lined with fur

[coral path]

True

It definitely might as well be

[restive geyser]

1426-1450, Italy.

the covered breastplate is what i am focused on.

For the record, this is supposed to be a roman emperor(?) so the stuff is possibly outdated for its time

[vocal vale]

very grounded for what it is

[coral path]

Interesting. It looks a little bit early for the game imo

[restive geyser]

I am certain this is depicting something possibly a bit older than the actual year it was made, this is Florence, Italy. 1431-1447. But, what i want you all to pay attention to. Is the sick ass finger ring on that falchion

[coral path]

Very nice

[restive geyser]

Falchions have some sick ass cosmetics, looking at art and stuff the Customization on a smaller sword is pretty fascinating. Hoping we see it in the ea

I saw some, fairly strange stuff though

Like a cross being put on falchion.

Something you would see on some more earlier halberds and Poleaxes

But that's because i think the art was depicting a crusade