references♥_1450-1470

[weak halo]

There are bevors and wrapper plates but those are only for the front

[lone osprey]

mail collars

[vivid solar]

Wouldnt count that as full protection

[lone osprey]

you said 'full neck' lol

[weak halo]

This armor dated to 1492 was apparently made for Maximilian I

It has front and back rigid throat defense

[unkempt rampart]

No back plate?

[weak halo]

Strangely, no

[unkempt rampart]

Did one exist and we don’t have it or was one not made?

[weak halo]

Maybe he didn't wear it with that particular kit

[unkempt rampart]

Strange

Considering they were the norm back then

[lone osprey]

well its composed and the backplate is probably missing

[weak halo]

The little pointy toes are also missing

[unkempt rampart]

Still don’t get why he had those

I get it’s a status symbol but still

[vocal vale]

if you can afford not to worry about the biomechanics of your feet touching the ground because you were on a horse so often you're going to get some envious looks

[robust tendon]

weren't they not worn in the field though

[vivid solar]

Awesome

[vocal vale]

i mean there's that one account of guys sawing their poulaine off their sabatons isnt there?

because they were on the wrong kind of terrain and wore them into the field

[robust tendon]

i didn't know about that account that's neat

[weak halo]

Drip

[vocal vale]

those aint leaves ! they's pointy shoe !

[robust tendon]

whats this from

[vocal vale]

i dont have the ms on hand but it's depicting the battle of Sempach from 1386

[steep yoke]

The battle of spinach

[bright token]

If I recall it right it was made for the miniature box. Painted by eastern european artist but I forgot his name or where he come from.

[bright token]

French knights?

[bright token]

I think I found the artist

[lone osprey]

burgundians so yeah mostly french but personally i like to consider them distinct

[bright token]

I like this guy's fluted cuirass

[lone osprey]

reminds me i was admiring how nice these fronts looked from different angles and just how much they protruded. 3623 and 3438 of iron documents.

fully enclosed neck (as pointed out by Goll)

[lone osprey]

a bolt in the belt is worth two in the bush
-me

[torpid urchin]

Hmm, does anyone have some mid-15th century french armour references?

[sullen charm]

i saw this before while scrolling through the metropolitan

they're Burgundians :3

[sullen charm]

holy ocular?

[sullen charm]

yes... consider them distinct....

[valid venture]

i want this in half sword

just like kingdom come deliverance

[sullen charm]

This illustration gets posted quite a bit here lol

[quaint shore]

its cause its like

the first thing you see when you look up handgonne

[terse bronze]

Your hand is gonne???!! Wow that must hurt!

[quaint shore]

nah

[weak halo]

Do we have more details and sources on mal engines than the Treatise from Johan Hill?

[quaint shore]

i do get a little bit of.. Phantom Pain if you will though..

[vivid solar]

Firearms are planned

[void stream]

Literally the first image that show up when you search for handcannon

[bleak ore]

https://www.wulflund.com/armour/helmets/gothic-helmets/sallet-medieval-helmet-ii-1-5-mm.html/ Is this one historically accurate?

[void stream]

yeah

[bleak ore]

And now I am realizing it is out of stock

[blazing raft]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ArtefactPorn/s/xsRUfhfvUL

[quaint shore]

Whys it got a downwards curve

[torpid urchin]

wood underpressure for a few hundred years?

[sullen charm]

@torpid urchin I've seen quite a few hand cannons curve like that in reproductions for it to be unintentional

I feel like it just makes it safer to aim it over walls

It's almost like the 20th century experiment around curved barrels

[torpid urchin]

that makes sense

or its earier to tuck it under the arm and aim

[quaint shore]

My handgonne has an upwards curve

[terse bronze]

just about out of the timeframe but wtver

[next orchid]

not sabatons, but shoes. and it wasnt terrain, but to fight on foot better

actually a couple of battles with that

[verbal bramble]

What is up with the pointed close helmet? Or what looks like one?

[sullen charm]

skeletons are best illustrated in this period

[unkempt rampart]

I know it’s far out of period but was there any sort of catch to stop a Bretache from moving around when it wasn’t being used?

[rancid dragon]

Interesting heading "ArtefactPorn"

[blazing raft]

I mean, with its lever, it has head?

[latent drift]

is it artefact or artifact

ive seen people spell it both ways

[void stream]

Do someone have the source of this image?

[terse bronze]

looks to be from a swiss chronicle

[void stream]

Nvm i found it

It's The Berner Schilling

[sullen charm]

Wikipedia says the Hussite Wars featured swords they called something similar to dussacks, but does anyone know what that looked like, considering it was a hefty amount of time before 16th c dussack?

[sullen charm]

BURGUNDY SPOTTED!!!

[warped fog]

Noble from Lithuania/Ruthenia (present day Ukraine & Belarus) from the Radziwiłł Chronicle (circa 1450-1470) and was brought to the Russian Empire in the 18th century

The armor is an interesting blend of western and more local styles

[sullen charm]

Interesting. Rondels on the bevor?

[warped fog]

Yeah

[warped fog]

Here are some examples of more western style armor found in the Radziwiłł Chronicle

[rancid dragon]

It's simply a difference in language artefact is British and artifact is American

[thorny otter]

"tesák" while being direct translation of "dussack" usually describes messer type of thing in this context (and we do have earliest examples of them in 14th cent). If you are interested in this kind of weapon in the region, i can only recommend the works of Zakovsky, especially his thesis "Tesáky a problematika jednosečných zbraní středověku a raného novověku -
Dussacks and issue of single-edged weapons of Medieval and Early Modern-Age"

Which among other things features pretty exhaustive catalogue of artifacts from thé region

[dim mauve]

I disagree with Americans on many spellings but they can have that one

[bright token]

German breastplates

I sadly cant remember where I save this from

Interesting that one has its sliding rivet lower than the other

[rancid dragon]

I hate their spelling for colour

[unkempt rampart]

What color?

[vivid solar]

Fr

[tawdry ginkgo]

Only correct spelling

[rancid dragon]

low key we should just ban American English as it technically doesn't exist yet in the world of halfsword

[next orchid]

neither does UK English lol

[quaint shore]

wild

[verbal bramble]

It's from the Matthias Gnoll thesis

I have the full files of these two in my computer, I can send them to you if you wish

[rancid dragon]

then make it all middle english and middle scots

[next orchid]

early new high german only

[terse bronze]

middle french !

[rancid dragon]

all the middle languages of central northern and western europe

[minor python]

Please add controls customization. Im left-handed 🥲

[latent drift]

me when i hate on a dialect of english for the smallest of reasons

[quaint shore]

most nothingburger reason

[latent drift]

to switch topics however does anybody have some nice armet reference images?

[quaint shore]

i think

[lethal adder]

i find it funny that britbongs shit on our spellings and accent when "American" English is more phonetically similar to the common English spoken by the mainland Brits during the colonial period. standardized adding of u's to certain words is a later phenomenon, and the UK accent wasnt common until the London posh accent become popularized in the late 19th century. its all very silly and nonsensical . youtube channel called Lost in The Pond has some good videos on this topic for anyone interested.

[quaint shore]

these few have probably been reposted a million times over

Its all i have, I’ll probably snag some minatures however

[lethal adder]

sketches of early armets that i snagged from here lol

[quaint shore]

Big fan of the 1412 one

[latent drift]

thank you i love early armets

[lethal adder]

1412 and 1415 are my favorites, really like the pseudo hounskull design

[quaint shore]

Tru

[lethal adder]

Graham Turner da goat

[terse bronze]

there's no hounskull in the pic

but agree 1415 is awesome i love the shape of the skull, very reminiscent of a bascinet

but armet

speaking of hounskull + armet

mmmh

lovely

[lethal adder]

ah yea, mb just didnt know what else to call it with it having such a pronounced point on the visor and the very bascinet skull shape so i got confused i fink

[terse bronze]

maybe another early armet with hounskull visor

from La capture de Jean le Bon. Miniature du Maître de Giac tirée d'un manuscrit des Chroniques de Froissart, B.M. de Besançon, Ms.864, vers 1412-1415

[lethal adder]

shaking my fist in the air bc hounskull armets and jupons dont fit in the games timeframe

[terse bronze]

it's really sad

something that does fit the game tho....

the last one is from 1520 but there's other examples of pretty much the same thing that fits the game

like this one, from 1470s

1460-70

between 1465-75

[lethal adder]

ooooo what are these they look cool

[terse bronze]

jacks

in a pretty germanic fashion (although there's some examples of it bleeding in the low countries & france)

[lethal adder]

ah, ive heard of jacks before but havent seen specific depictions. i figured or assumed jacks were another word for surcoat or waffenrock, etc.

very cool, thank you for sharing

[terse bronze]

no jacks (jaques) are padded defenses

or at least quilted

here's one of the more popular western european design (france, burgundy, low countries, britain ..)

it's multiple layers of fabric compressed together essentially

with some layers of leather/hide sandwiched too

[lethal adder]

very cool

i learn more every damn day in this server

[terse bronze]

from the 1473 burgundian ordnances

same part in french

from a french source, around the mid century

same part in french

Ordonnance d'Abbeville, 31 juillet 1471 (Burgundian)

"The Archer shall ride a horse worth no less than 10 écus, dressed in a jack with high collar instead of a gorget ||(here to undertand a maille standard)||
Haubergerie ||(to understand, maille garment. same root as hauberk)|| inside said jack, which shall be at least 12 canvas layers. 3 shall be waxed||(? I imagine the meaning here is to have 3 harder that the rest)|| and the 9 remaining shall the common ones"

Ordonnance de Bohain, 13 novembre 1472 (Burgundy)

"A jack of 10 canvas only and one of them can be reinforced" (I cut a lot because it's pretty weird to translate)

[dim mauve]

Okay so I'm probably confused because from what I can tell this is an illustration by a guy who died 1405, depicting a king (who died in 1364) being captured in 1356.

I guess it's an illustration by someone else based on the chronicles?

[dim mauve]

This illumination of the same individual at the same battle wearing the same stuff would suggest it's either a poorly drawn or strangely shaped bascinet

Also if it was an armet in the image you posted I feel like you'd be able to see some kind of indication hinge mechanism for the portions of an armet that open.

[vocal vale]

related

[cold yew]

Is this 15th century?

this blade just looks

so beautiful

Sexiest Kriegmesser I've ever seen

[cold yew]

This Single Edged sword makes me attracted to sword

The Curve
The Geometry
The Handle geometry
The Flower
The Blade
The Handguard
The Handguard Geometry
The Pommel

But this still looks like can be used in actual battle

[lone osprey]

1550

https://www.kp-art.fi/jt/miekat/swiss_sabre_III.html

[cold yew]

oh😭

[rancid dragon]

MY DAMN

That's a fuckin awesome KreigsMesser

[dim mauve]

Is it not just a bascinet with a reinforcement at the bottom?

Like this? Which I assume to be some kind of transition towards great bascinets

[vocal vale]

the congruent rolled edge is a characteristic that doesn’t make sense on a grand bascinet’s reinforcement

[dim mauve]

How so? Rolled edges can carry over from segment to segment

Also armet cheek plates certainly wouldn't make sense with an aventail like that

[sullen charm]

burgundian ordinances mentioned

[sullen charm]

where'd you extract this excerpt from?

oh wait I think I might know

[terse bronze]

Used Eol's translation for convenience but they all appear (and used it for the following screenshots) in "Aux Sources d'une Armée Permanente", a Thesis by Fabien Delpu

[sullen charm]

Anatomy of a Sallet — Knyght Errant via YouTube

[lethal adder]

out of curiosity, is there any historical basis for scale plated aventails? i see them all the time on buhurt kits which typically arent historically accurate but the scale aventail always looked cool to me so i was wondering if they actually existed or not

[unkempt rampart]

There’s this one I remember that’s debatably a scale aventail

In the doorway

[lethal adder]

ah very nice thank you

[vocal vale]

it’s rare that they illustrate the overlapping of the aventail

the rolled edge is more characteristic of an opening that is intended to stay together entirely

besides a later grand bascinet would have an inner cheek plate and an outer throat plate at this point in history

and the extra plate covers only the chin and the upper neck, it doesn’t rest on the torso whatsoever which is also pretty universal at this point in time

[terse bronze]

i hate that second one

[weak halo]

Me too, but to an extent I can imagine it on a poorer soldier

I keep a lot of images as references for things I want to eventually put in Skyrim, tegulated aventails were one of them

[dim mauve]

later grand bascinet? this armour is early for plate armour no?

idrk i mainly care about war of the roses

[vocal vale]

~1415

by “later” i effectively mean past 1400

[dim mauve]

Eh idk man, we generally say the battle of Shrewsbury (1403) is a 1300s show in terms of what kit to wear and 1415 doesn't look too much different.

I think honestly in my head the difference between early and late is whether or not they're mainly using bascinets or sallets 😂

[vivid solar]

Graham turnerrr

[lethal adder]

https://tenor.com/view/smiling-friends-mr-boss-yelling-spaghetti-gif-24505286

[unkempt rampart]

As much as I love graham turner my one complaint is that all his art is rather bloodless

[vivid solar]

There's overall a lack of grime aswell

Not sure why

Maybe because museums wouldnt want to display his stuff otherwise?

[ancient pivot]

it is odd seeing people dead on the floor with seemingly no injuries

[unkempt rampart]

It’s like they’re just having a nap in the middle of a battle

[weak halo]

The layers of padding would soak up the blood

Think of people getting stabbed whilst wearing a coat

If you look at the weapons themselves they usually have some blood on them

[terse bronze]

these guys are pretty bloody !

ouch!

[vivid solar]

Yeah there's some

Not much though

[dim mauve]

Likely not overly gory because his art is often used as promotional material for reenactment events which are appropriate for all ages.

As well as books etc.

[vivid solar]

It's a shame

[dim mauve]

Honestly would you even see that much blood? Like the previous guy said, everyone's wearing quite a few layers so most bleeding wouldn't be visible.

Also, due to all those layers, people probably aren't taking injuries as much as you'd think, at least I imagine.

Another thing is that people seem to generally highly over estimate how much blood comes out of a human body.

People probably weren't taking as many injuries as you'd expect and any blood that was being spilled would probably be running down the inside of padding or armour.

[vivid solar]

Yes but there's a lot of people wearing visorless sallets, more people would be getting stabbed in the face than he shows lol

Also you'd expect to see more than he shows, even if it's less than you'd expect

[weak halo]

I think there's a reasonable amount

[next orchid]

Yes you would see a lot of blood

Head wounds bleed a lot. Arteries bleed a lot. "Lots of layers" be damned.

[next orchid]

there was a dude who got stabbed just a little while ago that was all over the news and his coat didnt prevent his blood from going everywhere lol

[weak halo]

In the neck or center mass?

[next orchid]

cant remember, looked like a belly stab

any of the properly killing wounds would have lots of blood though. although i suppose that depends on ur definition of lots of blood. but the battlefields were definitely gore filled even if they did not have literal pools of blood, as seen by the somewhat recent wars where swords were used

[next orchid]

for nonlethal wounds, u can see that one machete fight in england where a guy got nicked and his neck and chest were covered in blood

that one video from the ongoing war with the knife fight had lots of blood too

[weak halo]

Honestly I'd think Napoleon era battlefields much bloodier than medieval ones

[next orchid]

"There Lord Hugh of Scots was wounded with three spear−wounds in his face, and Lord Ralph too; and Lord Frederick of Loupey was wounded with a spear between his shoulders, and the gash was so wide, that the blood spurted out of his body as through the tap of a cask. Lord Erard of Syverey got such a sword−cut across his face that his nose hung down onto his lip. Then I bethought me of Our Lord Saint James: Fair Lord Saint James, I prayed, Help and save me in this need!"

• Jean de Joinville, on Mansurah (1250)

"Item, on the sixth course that the squires ran against each other Chalons was towards Louis’s pavilion and on this course Chalons struck Louis in the place of the rest and broke the edge of his harness and he thrust the lance right inside his body through and through and broke his lance there and Louis was left with the shaft and lancehead, and carried it a good ell to the end of the list and wrenched it out himself so that the blood spattered from one side and the other."

• Feats of Arms at Tours, 5 February 1446/7

"Jum’a al-Numayri (may God have mercy upon him) passed one of them, so the man stepped towards him and struck him in his head. Jum’a was wearing a qalansuwa [=quilted cap] on his head, but the blow cut through the cap and sliced open his forehead, from which blood poured until he was almost drained of it, leaving the wound open like a fish’s mouth."

• Usama ibn Munqidh

[unkempt rampart]

That part about the nose hanging down over the lip is horrifying to think about

The fact he was able to keep fighting and later rode off to find reinforcements is incredible

[next orchid]

yeah. worst part though is that descriptions like this are everywhere in the modern period literature of their battles

one officer, i think german or austrian, lived, but had the whole front of his face cut off

lips gone, nose gone, etc.

[terse bronze]

Gueule cassée type shit

[next orchid]

yeah

[terse bronze]

crazy to think about the percentage of our faces that isn't needed to live

you can live with most of your face gone, half a brain

insane!

[next orchid]

lmao

usama even describes faces being resewn back up

[unkempt rampart]

I saw one picture like that from WW1 let me see if I can find it

Like dear god

[lethal adder]

holy moly

[next orchid]

ok this one is worse

[verbal bramble]

Jeez

[terse bronze]

I find the masks they made for gueule cassées to try and help them be less "horrible" quite awesome

aswell as post ww1 cosmetic surgery to mitigate the dmg

[verbal bramble]

How common were injuries like these in the 1450-1500 battlefield?

[dawn orbit]

Id imagine common but probably much lower survivability rate because of disease right?

[weak halo]

I don't think you'd survive that kind of injury back then tbh

[unkempt rampart]

Probably not considering due to the fact it was caused by artillery

[verbal bramble]

Oh- yeah that is, comforting? In a way?

[verbal bramble]

I assume something like the left picture was more common?

[dawn orbit]

Did 15th century cannon ever use explosive shot or just balls or rocks?

[terse bronze]

they used big fat greasy balls

[unkempt rampart]

explosive and shrapnel are VERY much later

[terse bronze]

pretty sure they had cannisters in the 15thc

shotgun type shit

[dim mauve]

I mean a prince in the 15th century had an arrow through his skull, they had to invent a small contraption to get the arrow out and he survived

[terse bronze]

i think

[unkempt rampart]

Wait seriously?

[dawn orbit]

Yeah could they load small projectiles like grapeshot or was it just not done?

[unkempt rampart]

I thought cannister didn’t come along until the 1500s

[verbal bramble]

But which type of grease? (I jest)

[dawn orbit]

Henry V at Shrewsbury

[terse bronze]

Also i remember a manuscript page from the early 1500s featuring an explosive xbow bolt

[verbal bramble]

Leo Todeschini (Todd Cutler) has done quite some research on fire arrows, with one recipe including saltpeter, speaking of

[dim mauve]

Yessir, I'm actually making my battle of Shrewsbury helmet right now 😊

[dawn orbit]

That’s very unique if you have the name it would be cool

[dawn orbit]

Good stuff - I’m actually receiving the last bits of a late 15th cent waffenknecht kit today. People don’t post reenactment kits here do they?

[dim mauve]

i do

partly because i make my own

[terse bronze]

Löffelholz-Codex Ms-Berol-Germ-Qu-132 Fol 013r

around 1505

[dim mauve]

i finished fitting my bascinet visor to the main helmet and how im sanding it + bluing it

[dawn orbit]

I was reading through some older messages and I saw the highschooler who posted his halloween costume get torn to apart 💀

[dim mauve]

damn

[dawn orbit]

Do we know how this works??

[unkempt rampart]

Show it

[dim mauve]

shame, actually accurate suits of armour are ridiculously rare so there's not much point in ripping into someone for it

[dawn orbit]

I'll find it one sec

[dawn orbit]

Nono it wasn't accurate like it wasn't a living history kit but it was just a kid man...

[dim mauve]

even less reason

[terse bronze]

not sure but i think there's a fuse anyway

[dim mauve]

if youre reenactment or living history then there is some level of accuracy you're expected to have but obviously money is an issue

having a proper accurate suit of armour either costs fucking loads or you have to make alot of it yourself

[unkempt rampart]

Found it

That’s cinema

[dim mauve]

like at english war of the roses reenactments, even the chaps with fully accurate suits of armour still probably arent wearing english armour, theres a point where you cant expect more accuracy from someone

[dawn orbit]

Reply in the chat I cant find it

[unkempt rampart]

To amend to this, found this on a German article about his reconstructive surgery

[terse bronze]

I mean as far as it's flemish, french, italian then it's ok on the british iles

[dim mauve]

yes but english armour was still distinct from those

[terse bronze]

german stuff not really except probably some rare mercenaries or such

[dawn orbit]

Yeah I'm gonna be trying on my stuff this weekend - it's not fitted or anything so I'm not expecting peak quality. Is there a server people post that stuff or not really?

[dim mauve]

dunno

ive got a gorgeous blackened gothic cuirass coming at some point

i post my armour in art

[weak halo]

Didn't people import armor back then?

[dawn orbit]

Yeah they did

[dim mauve]

yes but not always, and when they did it was in their regional style

[dawn orbit]

I know the flemish and italian markets were huge

[dim mauve]

england was making alot of armour in lancashire iirc

[weak halo]

Wasn't English armor almost the same as Milanese but with fluting?

And foot combat principally in mind

[dim mauve]

there were a few notable differences

[dawn orbit]

Long fauld too I believe

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1qlYCTDJsHtMZi5q92VfPoWvQVhq03gz1?usp=drive_link

[weak halo]

I counted that in the foot combat part

[unkempt rampart]

Long faulds are so cool

[weak halo]

Better enclosed cuisses and smaller pauldrons or spaulders

Less chainmail layers

[unkempt rampart]

Did they cover the back of the knee?

Nvm I can tell they don’t

But the groin protection is pretty good

[dim mauve]

you can kinda just very easily tell english armour when you know what it looks like, very similar but very distinct at the same time

[dawn orbit]

For someone who doesn't know what they're doing, what makes this (these?) armour(s) english?

[dim mauve]

well one sign is that english armour looks very similar to milan armour but basically always has sallets. id say the proportions are also slightly distinct. long faulds, tassets not being attached to bottom fauld. often fluting on cuisses and places like upper arms.

[unkempt rampart]

I wonder what caused that to be the fashion

[dim mauve]

plackart also often shaped with almost like, cutouts

[dim mauve]

english knights fought primarily on foot

[weak halo]

These are all English, aren't they?

[dim mauve]

unlike mainland europe which fought mostly on horseback

[unkempt rampart]

Well yeah but the fluting doesn’t really effect that does it

[dim mauve]

fluting is more common on foot knights

[dawn orbit]

Isn't #3 Arne Koets in a flemish harness?

[weak halo]

No idea

[dawn orbit]

Oh lol

[unkempt rampart]

Really? No idea that was the case

[weak halo]

I don't know people names, but I guess Flemish would make sense with the shorter faulds and longer tassets

[dawn orbit]

Is this true? German gothic armours are the classic example and I don't believe there is a particularly foot-based chivalric culture in central europe

[dim mauve]

fluting helps strengthen the steel whilst not requiring thicker metal, so its found less on armour which was worn on horseback because weight doesnt matter anywhere near as much on horseback

[dim mauve]

afaik gothic armours are made more for foot combat, at least moreso than milan armour, which is why milan armour is thicker and heavier

[unkempt rampart]

What caused the shift in focus to foot combat instead of horseback?

[dim mauve]

gothic armour was built more for agility where as milan armour was built more to be fucking indestructible

[dim mauve]

no large horses in england

[unkempt rampart]

Aaaaaah

Yeah that makes sense

[dawn orbit]

shire horse

[dim mauve]

we only had little dinky things

not suitable for war

[dim mauve]

theyre a recent thing

[unkempt rampart]

The English did have cavalry though, so where did the horses come from?

[weak halo]

We don't talk often about Spanish armor

[dawn orbit]

Yeah that's how its classically framed but does that actually mean that places where fluting was more popular they tended to fight more often on foot? Like eastern mail and plate armour was very flexible (obviously) but was also tied to a cavalry-focused tradition

[dim mauve]

isnt that because the only record of it is like one painting?

[unkempt rampart]

Any notable characteristics?

[weak halo]

From what I've seen? Pointy helmets

[dim mauve]

well yeah because if youre fighting on foot fluting is more beneficial, by its nature. if youre on horse you dont need it because you can just have way thicker plate. Fluting lends itself to foot combat

[dawn orbit]

Yeah England did have horses, I'm not sure if size is really the reason. Countries with small horses still use them in battle (e.g. Irish Hobbies, Mongol horses the classic example, japanese horses, etc.)

[unkempt rampart]

Saw one paired with a bevor

[dim mauve]

it means your armour can be lighter whilst maintining alot of strength

[unkempt rampart]

Looked very silly

[thorny otter]

it is

[dawn orbit]

Right but is there a source that says that fluting is actually tied to a preference for foot combat or are we guessing

[dim mauve]

fluting also guides weaponry which isnt massively usefull on a horse

[dim mauve]

at the very least its a pretty educated guess, especially given the armours its on, for example milan armour tends to have much more restrictive helmets for the same reason, its horse armour. Gothic and english armours have sallets and things for foot

[thorny otter]

that would be massive, but i am quite sure there is none

[dim mauve]

also again, reduced weight, very useful on foot

[dawn orbit]

Haha okay that's what I was trying to figure out

[weak halo]

Apparently these are all Spanish

Emphasis on apparently

[dim mauve]

most of what is charictaristic of english armour is tied to the foot combat, for example hte longer faulds are because they protect the legs area better and dont need to be short for a saddle

[unkempt rampart]

Bottom middle on looks hilarious

[weak halo]

There's definitely something missing

[unkempt rampart]

I can 100% see how that sort of helmet ends up evolving into the morion

[verbal bramble]

I feel bad for them

[unkempt rampart]

I don’t

[dawn orbit]

I do

[unkempt rampart]

Tbf though I got banned for a year for being mean over historical accuracy

[verbal bramble]

Ah. I believe they should've just been told "hey man, this belongs in the art channel, not the historical accuracy channel. Cool costume tho.", not being torn apart over it

Partly, because none of us are born just knowing this stuff, and there is a lot of people who both do not know any better, and genuinely mean no harm.

[unkempt rampart]

I mean when you bring very historically inaccurate armor onto the historically accurate armor channel it’s gonna elicit some reactions

[dawn orbit]

But it takes a level of knowledge to know the difference

There are professional historians who could not date armour to the century

[verbal bramble]

Yes, knowledge which the guy may not have, and all things considered the harness was not that bad

It was a jumbled mess of armor bits all throughout the 14th to 15th centuries, and made of cardboard metal bits... but there was no For Honor levels of bad

The guy should have been told to go to the art channel calmly, not cruxified over it

[dim mauve]

was the helmet a barbute with a visor by any chance?

[verbal bramble]

Nope, I think it was a sallet

[dim mauve]

if it was a barbute with visor then it all would have been justified

[dawn orbit]

Its true actually his sallet and gauntlets are good

[verbal bramble]

His sallet wasn't so good, but like, still was better than half the armors Hollywood defecates, and still, he was cordial throughout the whole thing

[dim mauve]

one of the cunts fighting in my block at the battle of shrewsbury this year had a flat top great helm on so i think this dude is probably fine

[dawn orbit]

Even this, while yes an extremely unpopular opiniion because of swordtube, is something that has been defended by museums and conservationists so it does have an academic backing to it

[dawn orbit]

LMAO

[dawn orbit]

Like it's not a high quality sallet but it's also clearly not fantasy like it's something that is based on art

[dim mauve]

making a sallet out of cardboard sounds harder than making one out of steel

[unkempt rampart]

Dude anytime I see that helmet I lose it

[dawn orbit]

It was steel I think

[verbal bramble]

There was, for example, some dude who posted a gif of a spinning spiky ball mace made of brass, wielded by some Marvel-looking guy. And when I told him the whole kit wasn't accurate to the 14th-16th centuries, he called me all sorts of names and asked if my parents were incestuous. I am not making this up.

[dawn orbit]

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1YKvu5NFvxZT-wBmMmwJjqSIvIAz8mp47?usp=drive_link

[verbal bramble]

The "For Honor" helmet, huh?

[dim mauve]

ngl, i fucking hate barbutes even without visors, they look so shit an out of place on full suits of armour, even if it is historical

[unkempt rampart]

Yes

They’re like 60-70 dollars on Amazon

They’re so widespread if you look up armor or medieval on any social media you’re gonna see one

[verbal bramble]

Yep, I am very familiar with them

[unkempt rampart]

Somewhat sane over here, they’re fine on lower soldiers but on full harnesses it just looks silly

[dim mauve]

helmet ruins the whole suit

[dawn orbit]

I mean it's historical so by our standards it should look silly but it fits the contemporary aesthetic

[verbal bramble]

I hold them with about the same value as Labubus... Which is close to zero

[dawn orbit]

Its made for a different audience

[verbal bramble]

Isn't this the Avant harness?

[dim mauve]

dunno

much about it

[verbal bramble]

The Avant harness did not originally had a barbuta, but instead an armet. The original helmet was lost, and some Victorian replaced it with a barbuta

[unkempt rampart]

In my restless dreams, I see that fuckass helmet

[thorny otter]

other parts are gone as well and are replaced by other pieces

gauntlet, tassets..

[dim mauve]

expected as much, i do have an image of a painting where someone has a bartbute with a harness tho

[verbal bramble]

Surprisingly NOT the For Honor helmet, but similar enough

[dawn orbit]

I mean if guys were in kettle hats in full harness I think a barbute is excusable

[verbal bramble]

Huh... It seems like a very complete harness still, though

[dim mauve]

wrong, kettle hats are significantly cooler

[verbal bramble]

But still offering the same protection, I suppose

[thorny otter]

It's about as good as it gets in terms of surviving complete harness from the middleages

[verbal bramble]

Except Lorenz Helmschmied's armors, ofc

They are VERY complete, and absolutely beautiful

[dawn orbit]

Very barely medieval though - armour survivability from the early modern era is way higher

[thorny otter]

well, what if I told you there are some missing pieces there as well and discussion ongoing if the pieces match

[verbal bramble]

I can excuse this with an iberian harness, anyways-

[dawn orbit]

Those are cabassets

[dim mauve]

everyone who buys a barbute with a visor also buys the same exact shitty larp armour (you know what im talking about) and then does a little photoshoot in the woods with it all on

[verbal bramble]

I thought we established the renaissance, in terms of armor, as 1500 and beyond

[dim mauve]

the male version of the shitty armour that tik tok armour girls get

[dawn orbit]

The renaissance as a concept is late medieval overlapping with 16th century wym???

Also I have the lil plant Im new

[verbal bramble]

Then I most likely I am confused or misinterpreted the concept of Renaissance. Sorry.

[verbal bramble]

Huh... That is interesting

[dim mauve]

show me pictures of historical knights...

Search engine:

[verbal bramble]

Pleaso no-

[dim mauve]

i swear to god that armour is like an actual cognito hazard

[verbal bramble]

It is, it fucking is

[dim mauve]

i feel like im actively harming people by posting images

[dawn orbit]

It's definitely interesting to see that they have a unified aesthetic though because it really means that this is what people think armour should look like through the lens of modern or ren faire aesthetics

Its its own genre of armour

Unfortunately

[verbal bramble]

It is about the same level of cognitohazard as reggaeton

And as a Spaniard, trust me, you do not want to hear that stuff as commonly as it is here

[dim mauve]

its so consistent its its own style of armour with actual rules

[verbal bramble]

Just so we have a clear picture, where do we mark the dividing line between medieval and early modern?

[dim mauve]

cus they all wear the same shit

[dawn orbit]

It depends on the purpose of the definition

[thorny otter]

it is. One of the interesting parts of the Last Knight exhibit in MET couple years ago was that it made it possible to mix and match a bit between KHM Wien A60 suit and show it with a helmet which possibly is more fitting to it from the Lauder collection. And so on. Some reinforces missing possibly, maybe switched up gauntlets between them etc. But yeah, they are up there in terms of completness

[verbal bramble]

Interesting...

[dawn orbit]

But also if its not meant to represent smth historical it doesn't really matter does it

[dim mauve]

three genres of 21st century knight...

aluminum crusader.

etsy adventurer. (barbute)

Buhurt fatass.

[verbal bramble]

It is a fun thought experiment, if nothing else

I will stick to my gothic armor, thank you very much

[dawn orbit]

Retainers in leather armour all without helmets 👹

[verbal bramble]

What have they done to that poor halberd?

[dawn orbit]

Seed oils

[dim mauve]

my favorite medieval century is the one from dnd

[dawn orbit]

Similarly internally logical display armour https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/178kHgKNeMrLV8HUGdH4a5yCXQKo8BFcV?usp=drive_link

Helmet
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1k59X5JSBnTKkOL2V_Y0em_rz3_jKEzDD?usp=drive_link

[weak halo]

The way he's standing there reminds me of Shadiversity

[dim mauve]

DONT SAY THAT FUCKING NAME

aaaaghhhh

[weak halo]

[dim mauve]

my favorite detail is the rolled up gambeson sleeves to stop the brigandine vambraces that never existed from falling off

[weak halo]

Don't you know that rolled sleeves give you a +2 bonus with spears?

[dim mauve]

shadiversitycels seething when i tell them maille is way comfier than a brig

[unkempt rampart]

I went to my local renfaire and there were so many of those

They’re so mass produced it’s crazy

[dim mauve]

they all have armour that looks like it would be caved in by a front kick

[dawn orbit]

Its an expensive hobby man - gotta go for the 40 gauge steel >:)

[unkempt rampart]

As much as I think it looks silly I gotta give it to the buhurt guys for having armor that actually protects you

[weak halo]

Buhurt guys are really annoying though

[dim mauve]

they really are

[unkempt rampart]

Yes

[dim mauve]

they talk so much about what wearing armour is like yet they pad the ever living fuck out of it

so their experience of it is just wrong when talking about medieval knights

[dawn orbit]

dequitem the goat

And matt easton

[unkempt rampart]

I respect the buhurt guys who do it as a sport and know that it’s inaccurate but the ones who act like they’re actual knights with real combat experience are the worst

[dawn orbit]

And the professionals like tobias capwell

[dim mauve]

i saw a video yestarday of dequitem repeatedly taking mace swings to the helmet from a dude on horseback... And then he takes one or two fucking lance strikes

[unkempt rampart]

Dequitem is my favorite out of all the armortubers currently

[dim mauve]

and people still think a mace will fuckin one tap anyone through armour with magical "blunt force trauma"

[unkempt rampart]

The idea that any weapon would instantly kill somebody in armor is silly

The only thing that can really do that is a gun

[dawn orbit]

toyota hilux

[dim mauve]

if dequitem can take full force flanged mace shots to the helmet from a guy on a moving horse then you can pretty reliably take mace shots from a dude who isnt on a horse

[unkempt rampart]

Contemporarily

[dawn orbit]

gun 😔

[dawn orbit]

Granted its with padding but buhurt guys have been doing this for years no?

[weak halo]

Lance charge?

[dim mauve]

he isnt a buhurt guy, he doesnt wear much padding if any really at all

also all helmets have some amount of padding

[dawn orbit]

I mean I guess it depends on the type of armour but if we're talking plate I think yeah there's very little

[dawn orbit]

I mean your aketon should too

[dawn orbit]

I know I just mean we have more evidence than just him

[dim mauve]

plate armour is worn over an arming doublet which has no padding usually

[dawn orbit]

It has some I own three

[dim mauve]

padding isnt what lets plate armour save you from blunt objects, thats what the damn steel is for 😂

[dim mauve]

show them

your doublets are not the norm if they have padding

[weak halo]

Depending on the century I definitely believe that lance charges could kill fully armored men, I mean, that's why cavalry helmets evolved overtime to have rigid throat defense

[dawn orbit]

One sec

[dim mauve]

depends on the armoured man

[weak halo]

I'm thinking late 14th century with chain aventails

[dim mauve]

like i said dequitem filmed a video of him taking a lance to the head

[dawn orbit]

I think he meant through the armour though not through the gaps? I couuld be wrong

[weak halo]

I mean through the armor as well

The aventail

Or an armpit

[dim mauve]

a lance to the armpit?

[weak halo]

I'm pretty sure it's doable under specific circumstances

[dim mauve]

the armpit is a weak spot because of the blood vessel, but thats behind metal, you have to stab up into the armpit to get it

i doubt a lance would do much good

[dawn orbit]

The last one is arriving today - it’s a 15th cent doublet with points but it has some padding too

These are from my wee lad era it's been a minute

One on the right is more of a gambeson I'll admit

[dim mauve]

yeah you buy your stuff from websites, so your arming doublets wont be representative of actual ones

[dawn orbit]

You asked me to send my photos lol I'll send historical examples one min

[dim mauve]

i know but you said you had three doublets in response to me saying they generally were not padded

doublets were not padded because you want the steel to be a close fit

[dawn orbit]

Do you fight in armour?

[dim mauve]

yes

and i make armour

[dawn orbit]

Does your kit use padding?

[dim mauve]

not the late medieval stuff

well fitting armour on someone whos the right build for armour shouldnt need padding

most people are not the right build

alot of people are very surprised by this but steel, obviously being steel, is quite good at absorbing energy,

[terse bronze]

i love steel

[dim mauve]

as it happens steel is pretty good for protection 😂

[dawn orbit]

It may not need it but I can say it helps to have it

[dim mauve]

none of these are padded, theyre just a couple laters of linen or something similar

sometimes the upper arms are puffed

[dawn orbit]

Define padding

If several layers of thick fabric isn't a form of padding 🤷‍♂️

[dim mauve]

an inner layer of something like wool, a garment made of two layers is certainly not padded

[dawn orbit]

Like it's never going to be as thick as a gambeson

[dim mauve]

its not thick

[dawn orbit]

It helps protect though

It makes a difference

[dim mauve]

This is how thick arming doublets usually are, Infact no because this is the edge which is rolled in and sewn so it's like twice as thick here at the edge

[dawn orbit]

Right but this is your interpretation, the art is pretty clear that it's usually a bit thicker

I don't think arming garments like yours didn't exist but I think usually there would be some cussioning

[dim mauve]

this is not a thick garment, the upper arms are just puffy

[dawn orbit]

Why did late medievals develop the puffy shoulder fashion

[dim mauve]

its an italian thing

[dawn orbit]

“The doublet evolved from the padded arming garment… The shoulders and upper body were strengthened and quilted to carry the weight of armour and support the points that attached limb defences.”
—Thursfield, Medieval Tailor’s Assistant, pp. 55–57.

“The arming doublet, heavily padded at the shoulders and upper torso for the support and pointing of armour, is the immediate precursor to the civilian doublet.”
—Netherton, Medieval Clothing and Textiles, vol. 1.

“Arming doublets were thickly padded at the shoulders to support the arm harness. This heavily structured silhouette influences contemporary civilian fashion.”
—Capwell, Armour of the English Knight, pp. 62–65.

[terse bronze]

2 quite distinct fashion of maheutres, the italian one like you posten and then the frenhc/burgundian one

[weak halo]

Looks very similar to this one which is 4 layers of fabric

[dawn orbit]

“The padded gambeson and later the arming doublet… provided protection and carried the weight of the mail and plate through reinforced shoulders.”
—Edge & Paddock, Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight, p. 34.

[dim mauve]

This is specifically in reference to the shoulders on like burgundian ones which were made for pauldrons not spaulders

[dawn orbit]

Point being, it's not accurate to say knights didn't wear padding usually

We can't overcorrect the gambeson misconception by saying they just wore regular clothes under the armour

[terse bronze]

we're talking about the timeframe of the game

[dim mauve]

the shoulder padding was for pauldrons love

[terse bronze]

that too

there's period mentions of areas being "more padded" because they're more prone to being hit at thinner areas

[terse bronze]

which one of the 3 book is this from ?

[weak halo]

We should all wear gambesons and brigandines

Clearly

[terse bronze]

we should wear this

[dawn orbit]

1400–1450 I believe

[unkempt rampart]

There’s a few examples of it, Jean de Joinville killed a guy in such a manner

[terse bronze]

Yeah so i don't have the book around but it's entirely possible he's mentioning early century examples, which yeah, are different from the intense majority of the ones you'd see around the game's timeframe

[dim mauve]

early 1400s they were wearing gambesons over breastplates still lol

[weak halo]

Pourpoint over plate looks sick tho

[unkempt rampart]

It really does

[terse bronze]

jupon

[dawn orbit]

Yeah probably but I'd think it would still hold for this period

[weak halo]

Whatever they're called, they look awesome

[terse bronze]

i disagree

[dawn orbit]

You could be right though they could've decided to scrap the padding

[dawn orbit]

Is there a reason or is it just that we can't assume?

[dim mauve]

btw, in case the difference between pauldrons and spaulders for the purpose of padding shoulders needs to be shown...

[terse bronze]

Charles de Blois (died 1364) pourpoint with imported Iranian or Iraqi silk !

made around the mid 14thc

[weak halo]

Because being hit while wearing metal with only minimal padding hurts like hell?

Direct energy transfer

[dawn orbit]

Thats what I'm saying!!

[terse bronze]

because 99% of the sources show them being vastly unpadded

[dawn orbit]

I'm pro padding

[dim mauve]

you honestly really dont need padding under plate armour, padding on shoulders is nice depending on what armour youre wearing

[terse bronze]

Even during earlier periods where they only wore maille, the undergarment wasn't that padded (if they wore a padded garment in the first place)

[dim mauve]

in fact id say its worse to have padding because then nothing pifts properly

[terse bronze]

cut > shock

[dawn orbit]

But there is usualy still something it's not just a linen shirt - wearing armour for hours on end without some form of cussioning would be very uncomfortable, I think even if it is tailored (which for most men at arms it probably wasn't becuase it would've been munitions grade provided by the knight commanding their lance)

[terse bronze]

i'm pro cut and slash

[dim mauve]

evidence for padding under maile even is kinda debatable for the most part

[weak halo]

I believe legs were left mostly unpadded, but there's no way they wouldn't wear thicker arming clothes

[dim mauve]

if you're fit and fairly skinny then no, armour isnt uncomfortable

[terse bronze]

I wouldnt say debatable because there is a couple actually good sources showing or mentioning it but it's clearly not a case of it being always done

[dim mauve]

ik ik thats why i said for the most part

[terse bronze]

gambeson OVER maille supremacy

[dim mauve]

yeah leg harnesses were made to tightly fit the leg over the hose

[terse bronze]

I have yet to see any reliable source about padded legs (except those cuisses during the 13-14thc)

[dim mauve]

also, wearing padding under leg armour fucking sucks trust me

[weak halo]

I don't think there's any leg padding besides buhurt armor tbh

[terse bronze]

(those)

[dawn orbit]

I mean it'll always be less comfortable than regular clothes, so it's fair to assume someone wearing it for hours on end would want to alleviate that if possible and a great way is a slightly thicker, more cussioned doublet. I'm not talking about the chunky buhurt gambeson type things

[unkempt rampart]

Man Bascinets under Great helms are such an interesting thing

[dim mauve]

armour was ultimately made to fit as well as possible to the persons form, otherwise it wouldnt move properly

[terse bronze]

early to mid 14thc 🔛 🔝

[dawn orbit]

Right, but it's still rigid plates on your body - I'm not saying it's not ergonomic or well designed I'm just trying to say it's worth wearing some light padding from my experience

[dim mauve]

metal harnesses are meant to act like a second skin, if you pad it out it becomes unfitted and stiff

[terse bronze]

:3

[dawn orbit]

You could say the same for a 13th century hauberk but effigies show light padding underneath those as well

[dim mauve]

wear a proper well made suit that hugs you, you dont need that shit padded mayne

[dim mauve]

you can also shatter bones through hauberk

so padding is much more preferable in that case

maile is also pretty deformable so padding doesnt worsen it much

[terse bronze]

Nath Dos Reis (future doctor in medieval history) said something really interesting in an interview about the whole "gambeson = padding against blunt force" thing

[dawn orbit]

Most men at arms on a battlefield in 1450-1470 were not knights. Many of these men at arms would not have worn tailored harnesses but instead munitions grade harnesses

[dim mauve]

it doesnt need to be tailored to fit well

if you're skinny and fit most armour will fit

[terse bronze]

message i wrote a while back, too lazy to write it again

[dim mauve]

the only armour that i have to worry about is leg armour because im 6'5 and all my height is in my legs

[dim mauve]

yeah we wear gambesons to training alot and ive always felt like they didnt do much in the way of blunt

[terse bronze]

he also said his current thesis is about 146gb

(isn't finished)

[dim mauve]

padding on its own and maile on its own arent great against blunt force, but maile with padding is pretty decent

i know multiple people who have had bones broken at reenactments even with padding and maile on, never heard of an injury in plate armour with no padding unless it was to an exposed spot

[fast pagoda]

Feuerwerkbuch, Royal Armouries MS I.34 (early 15th c.)

Sorry for the text being sideways—it’s presented like this in the original paper for some reason, and I’m not sure if I can fix the orientation of it on my phone. I also didn’t want to post it when other things were being discussed, so as to not disrupt them, and this is why it’s rather late. I had it ready, but other things sparked up quicker than I could send it, and thereon kept sparking.

These passages both relate to the firing of guns with multiple shots, as was discussed earlier today. It is noted by the analyzing author that the firing of the “hedgehog” is sometimes translated to “grapeshot” because of their similar use. The “hail shot” is a more standard multi-shot load rather than a spray over a crowd. I can’t say for sure how much either way was used, but it at least shows some precedent.

Here is a link to the paper by Axel Müller. It has a full analysis of the entire works, though I only used it for the translated text, as it was the first that I found. Be wary of the entire text, both translated and original, being shown sideways.
https://files.core.ac.uk/download/pdf/228132888.pdf

[vocal vale]

most men at arms would have had tailored armor

if you can afford a horse you can afford your own armor

[next orchid]

lances also went through cuisses, and also the waist of the armor. other times we see material failures of the cuirass itself.

[weak halo]

Yeah, although you're more guaranteed to get a good hit through the soft parts

[next orchid]

theres a 14th century account of a man at arms throwing his lance and it penetrates another's visor and wounds him (in the mouth)

[weak halo]

Getting hit in the neck with a couched lance must've been horrible

[weak halo]

Ouch

[next orchid]

getting hit in the head and getting a concussion lol

[weak halo]

Bucket sound

[next orchid]

theres a couple of accounts of this

one where they both concuss each other

[unkempt rampart]

Now that I think about CTE among knights must have been prevalent

[next orchid]

absolutely lol

dudes just wailing on each others heads with their swords

and lead mauls and maces and whatnot

[unkempt rampart]

Every time I hear about a mad king or lord you’d probably think they all just got traumatic brain injuries

[next orchid]

"Upon this, sir Edward halted, and the Englishman attacked him, thinking to fix his lance in his target; but he failed, for sir Edward turned the stroke aside, nevertheless he did not miss his own: with his spear he hit his enemy so violent a blow on the helmet, that he was stunned and fell to the ground, where he remained senseless."

• Jean Froissart

im pretty sure the other quote where they both get stunned is also in froissart but im too lazy to find it

"Sir Eustace struck to the ground four of the most vigorous of his enemies, with the spear he had in his hand; which was no sooner perceived by sir Broquart de Fenestrages, than he flung his lance over the heads of all those that were between him and sir Eustace, and, hitting him on the visor of his helmet, it penetrated through and broke three of his teeth: this, however, did not prevent sir Eustace from continuing the combat."

[unkempt rampart]

Wonder what kind of visor he was sporting

[terse bronze]

I checked and p62-65 is an effigy and english armor ca. 1410-1430 with no quote to arming garments

[next orchid]

tbh not full force

theres actually a lot of accounts of guys being dropped dead with a blow from a mace on the head, at least in mounted contexts

hard to tell if its from broken necks or insane TBIs

[dim mauve]

Looked like he was using alot of force to me

[next orchid]

absolutely not

horse isnt even galloping, but also he's lightly wacking

if he gave him a proper fendente and held strongly to the mace, dequitem would probably have to go to the hospital at the very least lol

[unkempt rampart]

Didn’t Robert the Bruce kill a guy by hitting him on the head with his axe in a similar manner

[vocal vale]

fendente

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1086506182090440794/1437239511519203490/image0.gif

[dim mauve]

What do you expect a swing to look like?

[next orchid]

lowkey cant remember if the earlier source says a mace or an axe but yeah

[next orchid]

well if he was actually wanting to kill the dude, not lazily swinging it

[dim mauve]

It's a lob sided object all mace swings look lazy unless you're like, swinging downward.

[next orchid]

they dont look lazy, and yes, the fendente as said is the most powerful

[lost grove]

I would imagine that his body would twist more

It looked like she only used his arms

Granted he was on horseback, so that may change some things

But if he was striking down, I would imagine one would use their obliques and abs to curl their body slightly down along with the strike to add some power

Granted I’m no expert on warfare from horseback

[dim mauve]

Have you ever used a mace, they're really not very fun to swing.

They're just not as fast as most other things

[next orchid]

"And anone one of hem that was in mountaguys companye vp with a mace & smote the same hugh vpon the hede that the brayn brest out and fel on the grounde. and sodenly he was dede an euyll deth"

• William Caxton

"In this battle a French Captain turned to face me because I killed two of his brothers on the battlefield, and we fought in the middle of the two camps armed as men at arms with some iron maces that I brought out. The Frenchman, seeing the weight of them, threw his to the ground, being unable to wield it well, and seized hold of an estoc and lunged at me, thinking that I would not be able to wield the mace either. He stabbed me through the tasset and wounded me, and I then struck him on the armet with the mace and I sank it into his head, from which he fell down dead."

• Diego García de Paredes

"And the Lord King turned and seeing that this knight had killed Guillem Escriva, gave him such a blow of his mace on his iron cap that his brains came out at his ears, and he fell dead to the ground."

• Ramon Muntaner

[next orchid]

dawg i can pick up a hammer right now and swing it with much more force lol

he is swinging lazily if you look at his arm

[dim mauve]

Yeah hammers are significantly easier to swing

[next orchid]

brother...

[vocal vale]

what does "euyll" mean here?

[next orchid]

evil

(not in a moral meaning, but like how we might say the temper of a sword was bad)

[vocal vale]

Why did they not use the letter V? Are they stupid?

brain bursting out is gnarly

[dim mauve]

I know what swinging all these weapons is like from first hand experience, maces and hammers are not the same.

[next orchid]

probably not his brain but just blood flowing from the ears

[next orchid]

if u do then u suck lmao

[dim mauve]

So I somehow suck with maces but not hammers despite them being basically the same in your reality?

What sense does that make?

[next orchid]

no ur just making shit up

[dim mauve]

You don't understand the physics behind a mace until you've swung one, sorry but that's just the way it is

[unkempt rampart]

That first one had me audibly go “ooooooooh”

[next orchid]

yeah

theres some funny accounts of men at arms getting hit in the head and just lurching and u can feel it lol

"Another good bout happened there between a Frenchman and an Englishman, duelling on foot with battleaxes. The Frenchman went into the attack, raising his axe to strike; thinking that he had his foe close to him, he went so far short of the Englishman that, as mighty a blow as he thought he was giving him, so mightily he cast himself and the axe onto the ground, falling outstretched before his opponent’s feet. The latter, seeing him lying there, dealt him such an axe-blow that the Frenchman let out a huge moan. As there was not to be more than one blow at each encounter, he got up, and they did not go on to another."

• Fernao Lopes

"The French soon formed again, and shouted their cry of Notre Dame Ribemont! Many a man was unhorsed on both sides. The lord du Chin fought with a leaden mace, with which he smashed every helmet that came within reach of it; for he was a strong and lusty knight, well made in all his limbs: but he himself received such a blow on his casque that he reeled, and would have fallen to the ground had he not been supported by his squire. He suffered from this blow as long as he lived."

• Jean Froissart

leaden mace should be plommee in the original french iirc, so just a lead maul

[dim mauve]

@vocal vale bascinet I'm making, couldn't help myself and decided to try out my new bluing liquid on it in the middle of cleaning it up and sanding it.

[unkempt rampart]

That poor guy in the first one

[vocal vale]

neat !!!

[dim mauve]

Still quite rough rn but the hard work is all done

[weak halo]

That looks awesome so far

[dim mauve]

Cheers love

[prisma raven]

Brigandines with lance rests

1- St Michael, Jaume Huguet, c. 1455-1460.
https://www.museunacional.cat/en/colleccio/saint-michael/jaume-huguet/037759-000
2- St Michael, From the retable in the Church of Santa María la Mayor, Alcañiz (Teruel). Attributed to the workshop of Domingo Ram, active 1462-96.
https://i.pinimg.com/1200x/44/49/f8/4449f8864498c1a2051b8c59395d54b4.jpg

Cool southern french brigs

1- Jacques Durandi, Retable de Saint Jean-Baptiste
vers 1450,
Tempera sur bois,
Musée des Beaux-Arts Jules Chéret, Nice
2- The retable of Saint Marguerite, by Jacopo Durandi (15th century)

Joan figuera, predella di san lucifero, post 1456, da s. lucifero a cagliari, michele arcangelo

Siracusa, Galleria Regionale di Palazzo Bellomo, Tombstone of Giovanni Cabastida (Joan Cabastida) from Syracuse Cathedral (Francesco Laurana attr., 1472)

[dim mauve]

Are you sure it's a brigandine and not a ciurass that looks like a brigandine? Because they certainly did that.

[verbal bramble]

What does lusty mean in this context?

[verbal bramble]

It is certainly a brigandine, the buckles on front are basically telltale of a brigandine

[next orchid]

Healthy, strong

[verbal bramble]

Ah, I see

[lone osprey]

though there are exceptions

but yeah certainly more buckles on a brigandine

one thing i am curious about with that gilt st michael one though - other brigandines without rivets on the outside? or perhaps is it not a brigandine

also just noticed it looks like that solothurn fechtbutch guy has his bevor attached to his visor. personally never seen that before except with one of maximilian's

[magic sand]

Can someone please explain to me why the mace in this game does NO damage?

IRL knight armor was so op that swords were useless against them, and they quickly fell out of use(they were only used ceremonially because swords were extremely expensive and peasants weren’t allowed to wear them).

So instead, maces were the ultimate knight killing weapon since they could crush straight through the armor to injure the wearer. This pic for example shows what a mace blow could do to a chest plate:

Makes no sense at all that the ultimate knight killing weapon is so weak

[void stream]

oh no

fat tony is back

https://tenor.com/view/i-love-you-binh-gif-6142726653922245520

please do not post visored barbute or whatever fantasy thing

[latent drift]

thats a shot from a cannon ball also thats a cuirass from the 19th century

[next orchid]

No it's from a mace

[latent drift]

was this mace in the form of a ball going 500 miles per hour

[quaint shore]

no it was a flanged mace

it merely grazed him

causing the knight wearing that 19th century cuirass to drop dead

[next orchid]

^

We don't have a lot of cuirasses from the Renaissance period because maces just disintegrated them

[quaint shore]

No I think that was just Victorians

[terse bronze]

The medieval era stopped in 1400 because they had maces and annihilated knights in shiny armor

[robust tendon]

https://tenor.com/view/snorbbler-live-reaction-gif-9808770471972114937

[coral path]

huh?

[unkempt rampart]

Tony this was from a cannon ball

That’s from the battle of Waterloo

That’s like what

300 ish years after half sword takes place

[terse bronze]

he's trolling

[unkempt rampart]

I gotta do it man

It’s in my bones

[quaint shore]

jokes aside that style of cuirass is fucking ugly

[unkempt rampart]

Yeah the rivets are off putting

[quaint shore]

its not just the rivets, its like

everything

its probably cause im more used to more globose shaped cuirasses but

[next orchid]

Ain't even trolling

[vivid solar]

This is some legendary internet historian action going on here

[dim mauve]

Globose sounds like a slur for aliens

[dim mauve]

I just don't really see a lance rest being that good on a brigandine, they're to stop things like the lance being pushed backward on impact and stuff but I feel like that would surely fuck up the brigandine it's attached to

I'd be very very surprised if a brigandine could take that kind of strain. I can only image the segment that the lance rest is attached to would get torn out completely at the rivets.

[cold atlas]

did any black+gold armor exist?

[quaint shore]

Round.

[dim mauve]

Yeah ik what it means 😂

[dim mauve]

In renaissance absolutely, as for medieval idk. Blackened with brass bits is pretty close though

[cold atlas]

pic?

[quaint shore]

ur right doe

[rancid dragon]

Mmmm

Greenwhich

[quaint shore]

Fucking nice one dude

[polar cave]

real life polearm in a restaurant

dunno if i should post it here so

[quaint shore]

Actually non Enshiddified fantasy slop warhammer

Holy shit

[verbal bramble]

Most definetly, considering latten decoration was a thing, and blackening was absolutely a thing

[verbal bramble]

We do have evidence it was done, though, not just in paintings:

[unkempt rampart]

I find it so funny everything around it is really bad and anachronistic and then there’s just a fairly accurate warhammer

[dim mauve]

Bec de corbin not warhammer

[quaint shore]

What Is a Bec de corbin really

Other than a So Called polearm Or Ravens beak

[haughty creek]

Isn’t it a Pollaxe

[lethal adder]

yea its just a variation of the pollaxe unless its meant as a one handed pick/hammer for cavalry use as far as i know

like "lucerne hammer" just a way of saying its a pollaxe with a hammer

most examples ive seen of lucerne hammers are pretty much exactly what people call bec de corbin

seems the terms are just used interchangeably

[dim mauve]

A certain weapon was uncovered at lucerne I believe, that being the lucerne hammer

[dim mauve]

It's always two handed

Warhammers are one handed

Maybe also two idk but bec de corbin is always a pollax

[next orchid]

lucerne axe is a modern term describing a certain construction of pollaxe

crow beak is the less common term for falcon beak

it can mean either a short one:

"vng petit bec de faulcon A vne main pour vng cappne"

or long:

"Si luy furent deux haches baillées et livrées, qui furent longues et poisantes: et furent les maillets et testes desdictes haches à manière de becs de faucon..."

[chrome rover]

Anyone got accurate images of a Bastard Sword? And maybe also a way to describe it, because i dont know much about it.

I dont know if BS's even exist

[next orchid]

its a real term, we dont know what the definition of it is supposed to be

the modern definition is probably wrong

[chrome rover]

Still talking about the Lucerne Axe or was that focused at my Bastard Sword question?

[next orchid]

bastard sword

[chrome rover]

ah, thanks then!

[polar cave]

theres also this armor i guess

again i dunno which year is if from or anythinf

does it even belong in this channel

[lethal adder]

ive seen people refer to warhammers with a beak on one side as a bec de corbin or ravens/crows beak before, i was talking more in that sense i was unaware if thats incorrect

[terse bronze]

Ravens beak was a colloquialism used to describe pollaxes that had a beak (cutting or hammer head didn't matter)

But the term pollaxe was used more anyway

Ravens beak was used to only describe the beak part and sometimes the whole weapon by extension. Colloquialism and shi y'know how it is

And bec de faucon (falcon's beak) was also more popularly used than bec de corbin (crow's beak) from what I could gather

Little meme I made

[sullen charm]

I am aware based on the belt that this is a 14th century harness but does anyone know about 15th century examples of full brigantine arm harnesses such as this?

[sullen charm]

Mine is pollaxe 😃

[weak halo]

That's not brigandine

That's just textile covered armor

[sullen charm]

Oh

Oh ok

Mb

[weak halo]

The besagew on it is amazing

[sullen charm]

Actually yeah now that I look it’s not really moving like brigantine

[weak halo]

Very nice brass work

[terse bronze]

In all'antica scenes there's limb protections that do look like that (as an effort from 15thc artists to make it look like older armor)

There's also leather and rope arm defenses from a tourney treaty (livre des tournois du roi René) that look similar

[sullen charm]

Ok thanks

[lethal adder]

gotcha, thank you for breaking it down like that thats a lot easier to understand lol

[runic holly]

Silly idea

[unkempt rampart]

I like that

That’s actually pretty cool

[sullen charm]

You may be in war but you still need swag

[loud brook]

imagine beggar boss willie with this 😭 i love him so much

[next orchid]

iirc it does seem that colloquially the falcon beaks etc. were seen as being the ones with hammers and not axes

at least when it is describing a weapon and not the part of the axe

[terse bronze]

lets go gambling

[verbal bramble]

Can I get something that isn't an axe? (joking)

[lethal adder]

so just to recap and make sure im understanding correctly; bec de corbin/bec de faucon is just a pollaxe with a beak on one end whether or not it has a hammer bit doesn't matter, lucerne hammer/axe is a bec de corbin/faucon, but lucerne hammer/axe is a more modern term and usually only refers to a pollaxe with a beak and hammer, crows/ravens beak is the specific term for the beak bit. its all pollaxe.

have i got it right or no bc i feel like im losing my mind

[terse bronze]

"Lucerne hammers" = two handed hammer (pollaxe) that happen to have bee made in Lucerne
But like fodder said, most likely a modern term

Bec de faucon (and more rarely bec de corbin) refers primarily to the beak of a pollaxe itself, although they colloquialy were used to describe the entire pollaxe when featured

[lethal adder]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-scream-cat-screaming-screaming-cat-screaming-cat-meme-cat-holding-head-gif-4516622970515193523

[dawn orbit]

Question to reenactors: how do you know how high up to tie your cuisses? Is there a good way to check?

[rancid dragon]

I would love if you could switch to the beak side and punch a hole in armour if you put enough force into it

[vocal vale]

you will not be punching into armor that often at all

[unkempt rampart]

Being able to switch sides on pollaxes would be nice

[rancid dragon]

well maybe at the least less well kempt armour like armour from the militia and soldier tiers

[dim mauve]

It would need to be mild steel and likely a relatively thin area

The bec de corbin probably was one of if not the best weapon at penetrating plate armour, that doesn't mean it was good at doing it though.

[prisma raven]

1- Altarpiece of the Constable of the chapel of Santa Ágata, Barcelona (1464-1465)
2- Saint Vincent at the Stake, Jaume Huguet, Part of the altarpiece of the church of Sant Vicenç de Sarrià. (c. 1455-1460)
3- Saint Michael, Master of Belmonte (Spanish, Aragon, active ca. 1460–90)
4- Resurrection of Christ, Master of Xàtiva (c. 1500)
5- Magdalene with Saint Michael, Anonymous Xàtiva Altarpiece (late 15th century)

[polar cave]

the one on the image

its right there

[bright token]

cool fluted visor, photo taken by Roel Renmans

front view of the harness

Is this type of armet too early for the game? I really like the rondels on it.

[terse bronze]

simply me, chiling by the fire with my halberd

[chrome rover]

is that a halberd? i thought it would need at least a hook to count as a halberd

[terse bronze]

it's a halberd

[chrome rover]

so a halberd doesnt need a hook to be a halberd?

[terse bronze]

yup

[chrome rover]

my world has been torn apart

[terse bronze]

halber

hal

brt

[chrome rover]

so, beforehand i wouldve thought only the 3rd image was a halberd

and a halberd without a hook is god knows what

[terse bronze]

habred

[chrome rover]

yuh

i hate definitions

[chrome rover]

nice, very smooth

[dim mauve]

Anything with a piece of metal at the end is a halberd these days.

[chrome rover]

me no like

i would prefer if each little change made the weapon have a different title

[terse bronze]

it's still time, say no to halberds and join the vougecels

join us

[chrome rover]

Halberds are better, thats why i dont want icky Voulges to be similar to them

[terse bronze]

🖕

[chrome rover]

;P

[zenith forge]

Sick as hell

[snow nova]

Kastenbrust armor

[bright token]

https://www.instagram.com/p/DReP0xcDO8n/?igsh=Zm53bjNmcnFpMnJo

der_kriegsknecht_zu_landshut

Schongauer Spießknecht der mittleren Bürgerschicht ⚔️🛡️
.
Pictures by 📷 @bsf.de
.
#kriegsknecht #15thcentury #latemedieval

Instagram

Pavise spearman is real

Pics for ppl who dont use instagram

[verbal bramble]

Which manuscript is this?

[terse bronze]

Luzerner Chronik (1513) by Diebold Schilling

[verbal bramble]

Huh... Is it the fact it is from 1513 make it less valid or trustworthy of a source?

[latent drift]

https://tenor.com/view/danny-devito-its-always-sunny-applaud-happy-cry-clapping-gif-18958303

[lone osprey]

it's depicting the siege of a milanese city by the swiss in 1478. equipment looks like it could easily fit into that date range.

||my opinion: chronicle illustrations, at least around the turn of the 16th century, have limited visual vocabularies (types for soldiers, nobles, etc.) that usually reflect either contemporary fashion imposed onto some older period or some equally generalized appearance for the sake of expedience / also just reflect the various artists own repetitive visual 'languages,' so important events or features are highlighted without too much regard for the accuracy of every detail.||

[verbal bramble]

I see

[sullen charm]

@prisma raven What hat is this?

[sullen charm]

Helmet rondels are my favorite rondels. I'd love to see more than just sallets with rondels for HS

[prisma raven]

I don't really know if it has a distinctive name tbh
in spanish it's called a "bonete"

[thorny otter]

I usually see described it as "acorn hat".

[prisma raven]

Cool

[night kindle]

I customized them :D

[vocal vale]

feel like that armet really does not match the rest of the kit

[unkempt rampart]

Why is references in a different category now

[white fulcrum]

WHO MOVED REFERENCES

WHY

caps lock

[quaint shore]

I have refrences in my favorites do

so

[forest citrus]

not rlly related to the game but its the same time window
does anyone know what the purpose of the knot at the nape is?

[ancient pivot]

Looks cool

[sullen charm]

We frequently discuss topics outside the game's specific scope like burgher fashion. Don't worry about it.

[mighty needle]

it's a nape knot. a knot for the nape

[forest citrus]

https://tenor.com/view/fig-gif-26092737

[stark compass]

https://tenor.com/view/epic-embed-fail-ryan-gosling-cereal-embed-failure-laugh-at-this-user-gif-20627924

[prisma raven]

1464-1467 Flanders - Histoires de Troyes, KBR ms. 9263

[lone osprey]

that helmet decoration(?) sticking out from the back of the sallet is so odd. looks cool though

[vocal vale]

https://tenor.com/view/thundercock-officer-bodycam-off-chad-thundercock-jarik-gif-5545953348826508263

bodycam off since the hussite war

[night kindle]

LMFAO

this made me laugh so hard

[lethal adder]

arbites

[zenith parrot]

medieval Judge Dredd

[sullen charm]

Biggest helmet rondel I've seen yet

[sullen charm]

I believe these armours are form the 16th century but seeing as they have great bassinets I was curious, at the time of this game did anyone wear great bascients or did they go out of fashion to early and come back to late to be featured

[terse bronze]

they're from the late 15thc

actually uh

wait i have to check something

[sullen charm]

Oh, did they have those bear feeted sabatons then?

I thought late sabatons were still pointed

[terse bronze]

https://www.khm.at/kunstwerke/fusskampfharnisch-kempfkueriss-502569

so right at the end years of the 15thc

[snow nova]

tabards, idk name of thats thing😭

[candid rapids]

i think theyre tabards but theyre referred to as livery in most of the stuff i see them in

[snow nova]

bear feeted sabatons look very cool

[coarse edge]

Nice car you got there

[sullen charm]

BURGUNDY REFERENCE

[sullen charm]

I thought livery is a more general term to encompass tabards, surcoats, etc

[sullen charm]

This guide is generally good for contemporary terminology.

[snow nova]

oh yeah, i searched this pic

ty for image!

[candid rapids]

well i usually see it when its referencing these 2 types of thingamabobs

[sullen charm]

I see livery is to tabards and surcoats, as clothes is to t-shirts and button down shirts

But that's my perception

[candid rapids]

but i'd assume they just use it to group the heraldric devices together

[candid rapids]

probably yeah

[sullen charm]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livery?wprov=sfti1

So, literally an identifying design. Makes sense when you got to uniform people in different types of equipment. I'd assume a Burgundian cross across a gambeson would count as a livery for example

[dim mauve]

Early progress of Milan ciurass I'm making. Lots of dents and welds everywhere because I'm going by the philosophy of make it exist and functioning before you spend hours making it nice and good.

[sullen charm]

I love the dents

It's like a raw Turkish style jazz cymbal

[dim mauve]

They're mostly there because the front piece is a breastplate someone sold me that I've heavily modified, unfortunately the steel on it is quite thin so welding it just puts holes through it. Not good since I had to take a chunk out of it and then weld it back up to get it into the correct shape

[snow nova]

dueling shield

[vivid solar]

3rd one looks like a goddamn double bass

[chrome rover]

i know what my next drawing will be

i might just draw over one of those drawings

Anyone got more cool paintings of Dueling shield duels?

[sullen charm]

most of those don't fit this channel's scope I think

Looks more early modern than 15th century except the double bass one

[sullen charm]

Look up Hungarian shields

[chrome rover]

i know those

[sullen charm]

Damn

Alright then

[chrome rover]

i guess ill ask in the other channel, because i only want those cool duelling shields

[sullen charm]

Iberia

[prisma raven]

not iberian made...

[sullen charm]

Joe made

[unkempt rampart]

New dequitem video came out

Swords are way better and penetrating mail than I thought

[fiery gorge]

Fig. 92

[snow nova]

🤣 🤣

[lone osprey]

by any chance have you read anything about these were thought to be made or do you have your own assessment how the rivets aren't visible?

like is it just like regular brigandines but with that exterior layer of high quality fabric overthe riveted layer and with the buckles still slit through

[dim mauve]

Kinda depends on the type of maile they're wearing.

This isn't even riveted and you've got absolutely no chance of doing anything through it with a sword or dagger.

I'm not even sure a warhammer could but I'm going to try that when mine arrives.

[terse bronze]

I believe there were some maille geometry that were noted to stop some crossbow bolts

I think I saw that mention in an Italian text about light cavalrymen

[dim mauve]

The maile I'm holding in my hand I fully believe could probably do that.

Hell the tests I did against that maile were against a solid surface where the maile couldn't deform much, so I imagine it would be even better on a person.

The capacity for good mobility with maile like that I'm honestly not sure though, it moves completely free on one axis but is rather stiff along the perpendicular axis, Ill have to find out once I sew it on my doublet

[dim mauve]

I would have thought good maile would be surprisingly good against guns tbh, given it can deform and absorb

There was a stupid video a while ago of some gun nut testing modern firearms against "armour", it was aluminum costume armour and yet if I remember correctly the aluminium maile somehow cought a 22 gague slug

Could be remembering wrong

Also it would still turn whoever is wearing it to mush anyway so it doesn't matter 😂

[terse bronze]

Yeah but ..

ONE mace hit..

and he's DONE FOR

[dim mauve]

Well yeah even the plate armour he had you could probably cave it in with a good punch

Also I reckon there's a hidden advantage to being a human when it comes to firearms. I'm not sure how relevant this could ever be but if you imagine tank armour, tanks are very very difficult to move, humans and their limbs are very easy to move. Thing is that bullets are far far more effective against surfaces that don't move when impacted.

Idk lol

[terse bronze]

it was a jonke sorry

[dim mauve]

I thought it might be but also that armour I mentioned definitely would have caved from a mace so actually not even a joke in that case

[sullen charm]

What is this text from

[sullen charm]

Date of access?

[terse bronze]

Huh?

[sullen charm]

Nvm I'll just estimate

[terse bronze]

i don't understand the question

do you ask the date of the manuscript?