references♥_1450-1470

[grizzled hearth]

What book are you referring to? I haven't read about or been interested in armor in about six years

[lone osprey]

yeah I agree but thats part of what makes me question if by the 1480s those are exclusively italian or if theyve cross fertilized to german lands by that point

[lone osprey]

Christopher Retsch's Sprechendes Metall: https://fis.uni-bamberg.de/entities/publication/b967b60c-8748-4d83-abcb-f759ef3e4495

[grizzled hearth]

Thank you

[verbal bramble]

Maybe mixture of both german and italian pieces? Or indeed, by this point there are some german harnesses inspired by the milanese? That's the only two I can think of

[lone osprey]

that is cool. the hearts are great. interesting fluting pattern looks very distinctive and not generic

[lone osprey]

the mixture thing I question - like thats definitely something modern restorers are doing, but if a rich enough fellow is purchasing a whole suit of tailored armour and it appears predominantly german, I am more inclined towards german harnesses inspired by milanese

take these pauldrons by hans prunner for maximilian's son philip

[verbal bramble]

Thank you! I am trying to make the whole armor ocean-themed, and I think the fluting style kind of reflects it, almost like waves. And I did saw some gothic plackarts with a similar pattern (only that, maybe, without the flute going through and to the side spikes), so it was done.

[verbal bramble]

Hmm... I find it odd that Hans Pruner's backplate is so bland when compared to the rest of gothic backplates, and made of only one plate

Obviously, this is a high quality harness, it was made for Maximilian I's kid, which leads me to wonder... Why? Is it Hans' particular style? Or him embracing italian "fashion" relatively earlier or to a greater extent?

[lone osprey]

the only other extant piece attributed to him i know of is also noted for its un-german-ness lol
https://www.google.com.au/books/edition/The_Last_Knight/X-anDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=Hans+Prunner&pg=PA245&printsec=frontcover
my guess personally would be the proximity of Innsbruck to Italy would have naturally seen more cross fertilization. dont know how many of the Churburg pieces were brought to that castle or actually belong to its 15th century owners, but its pretty close to Innsbruck for example

[grizzled hearth]

I was fortunate enough to be able to go the Maximilian exhibit and pick up that book in person

[verbal bramble]

That, or Hans was funny like that

[verbal bramble]

Good job! I assume it is now out of print?

[lone osprey]

I get the feeling it was a developing trend in the region, e.g. this partially-Treytz armour of Gaudenz von Matsch in Churburg https://www.facebook.com/61556557431797/posts/this-armor-from-churburg_castelcoira-inv-ch-s24-which-is-homogeneously-preserved/122212641104218581/

I believe the sallet and pauldrons are definitively attributed to the Treytz armourers of Innsbruck

[verbal bramble]

How odd... the plackart is def of german-like construction, and the pauldrons are def italian

[lone osprey]

yeah and Williams in the Knight and the Blast Furnace says the pauldron reinforce has a Treytz family marking for the attribution

[lone osprey]

thats really lucky to have seen in person. its a nice book has some good info in the catalogue

[grizzled hearth]

Just skimming through it before I read it fully but already seeing the part about dated armor in artwork is really interesting

[grizzled hearth]

I don't know but I'd imagine it is

[lone osprey]

haha I like that. I was thinking about that the other day actually. I think Kevlar mentioned some French armour terminology had a consistent bird theme? that got me thinking with the use of Krebs in German terms and then in some modern terms (I am not sure if it was used in the original context, but the term 'Mewsl' appears - which is totally unrelated: http://fwb-online.de/go/maus.s.1f_1754594445) elbow guards (or parts of them - presumably the part that looks like one) are referred to as Muscheln i.e. muscle shells (I believe)

[lone osprey]

yeah I totally agree - thats probably the most interesting part in the book to me, he does a good survey

[vocal vale]

lower class italian breastplates have been shown with that style of plackart attachment but i think it’s not clear whether it’s export or domestic

[thorny otter]

There is also the consideration of the Treytzes actually coming from Italy, namely Trazzo village (which would german misspell as Treytz). So the sort of italian origin of their style might come from this

Among other things

[lone osprey]

that would make a lot of sense corroborated with their history
https://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/en/view/bsb11157719?page=10,11

wait for a second I read it as the author saying it was the Treytz family who were given a tip for armour for the King of Naples but I guess he's just saying armourers from Mühlau (more or less Innsbruck). but yeah they only start to appear there as armourers in the 1460s

[fleet junco]

add maile

[lone osprey]

I wonder of Jörg and Conrad were Giorgio and Corrado before they moved lol

[verbal bramble]

Late reple, but this one isn't mussel, but instead scallops, scallops have that very characteristic fluted shape and can move, while all mussels I have seen are smooth and cannot move

[verbal bramble]

Oh, right, my bad

[lone osprey]

All good lol scallop shells are also called Jakobsmuschel in german - the st. James or Jacob pilgrim badge

[verbal bramble]

Oooh- Interesting little piece of knowledge about german

[lone osprey]

I still think my interpretation needs work because im not precisely sure how the different types of elbow guards resemble clam shells but that image was my best guess. I am going to do other comparisons haha

Also evidently muscle - mussel and the german cognates are all derived from a Latin word referring to mouse

[terse bronze]

Saint Jacques de Compostelle !!!!

(in french)

There's even a dish where we use those shells as a recipient for some individual casserole thing during Christmas

Called Coquille Saint Jacques (lit. St. Jacques shells)

Look it up honestly it's a banger

But yeah those shells are pretty ubiquitous during the middle ages and renaissance if you look hard enough you can see them A LOT

[verbal bramble]

I am interested in any 15th Century examples you have lying around, specially manuscripts or herladry, I have been trying to look for them, but the closest I can find is a 14th Century bade in the shape of a scallop. I wish to add a latten one on my backplate

[lone osprey]

damn that looks delicious
im making that for sure

[lone osprey]

Schongauer - Battle of St. James at Clavijo

[verbal bramble]

A bit small, but works. Thank you.

[lone osprey]

lol oh i didnt read your last sentence i thought you were looking for more evidence
heres Commynes https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e3/Philippe_de_Commynes_Louvre_LP_47.jpg

[verbal bramble]

Basically, I am looking for the artistic motif to draw it right (with some stylization, but I want to get the gist of it right

[lone osprey]

some good schematized ones here https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Seashells_in_heraldry

[verbal bramble]

My only worry is if they would fit well with the second half of the 15th Century, but I think with everything I have I should do a good enough job

[lone osprey]

hmm well you could always add details e.g. from the Commynes sculpture and use a schematized one as a basis. theyre pretty similar

[terse bronze]

Livre des faiz monseigneur Saint Loys - BNF Fr2829 (around 1480)

idk about the source on this one too hungover to look it up rn

[verbal bramble]

Is that buttons on the pilgrim's(?) garment?

These are great resources, thank you Kevlar

[terse bronze]

🫡

[verbal bramble]

And get well soon :)

[terse bronze]

thanks lol

[void stream]

Bell Shaped Kettle by Georges Jolliot batteur d'armures

This guy does an incredible job

[terse bronze]

This lives like 1h30 away from me tehe

He really does know how to battre des armures

[void stream]

I envy you, it's a shame I live on the other side of the world.

[chrome rover]

I was just looking at his page, the guy even made armour for Balenciaga.

[grizzled hearth]

What are all those rivets on the second to top lame of the pauldrons? The gardbrace pin design is interesting too

[verbal bramble]

How can I contact Georges Jolliot? Does he accept commissions? Figured out how to contact him. I am definetly not ready for comissions for personal reasons I won't get into, but in a far or not-so-far future I might ask him for something

[terse bronze]

through facebook i think, and he also has a website

[terse bronze]

that doesn't fit the channel brother

[young prairie]

I'm stupid man what is this channel even for

[quaint shore]

stuff from 1450-1470

[terse bronze]

to post references for the game

"1450-1470" in the title refers to the game's timeframe

[quaint shore]

theres threads which has seperate years

[terse bronze]

the first image works actually but not the others

[quaint shore]

like pre 1300

[verbal bramble]

Armor ranging from 1450-1470, wiggle room of 10 years or so... I think the only that fits is the lion sallet

[quaint shore]

Although big fan of the landsnchekt costume armor in that second pic

[young prairie]

ah okay

[terse bronze]

its pretty dope yeah

always a fan of armors mimicking cloth

[quaint shore]

True

[young prairie]

I don't even know what I thought those numbers meant on the channels name lmao

[quaint shore]

I just like ornate styles

Anything that makes an otherwise bland harness look more detailed i will appreciate

[terse bronze]

opening hours

only between 14:50 and 14:70

[quaint shore]

Willie O’ Clock

[young prairie]

14:70 huh

[terse bronze]

yeah

[night kindle]

bonkers

[lone osprey]

reposting (originally posted by Polearm_enthusiast) cause I want to see if anyone else has come across 15th century knights wearing the HRE's arms preferably over armour and not as an ancient roman

[next orchid]

dont we have extants

oh nvm that one was sewn into a tabard in the 19th century

crazy ass victorians bro lmao

i wonder who this guy is supposed to be
https://digital.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/objects/e87b4629-8630-4372-ad2e-179b2ea3e40a/surfaces/7ad05a9d-a3f6-4e5e-aa6b-9d014f7f613b/

[lone osprey]

huh ive never seen that before have you got a picture? I am still curious. i guess this is post-victorian but i like the tournaments they held in brussels and tournai lol

[lone osprey]

google books doesnt reveal much else other than the bodleain that he's a herald in a treatise on heraldry

[next orchid]

It's a supposed 14th century tabbard. I'm gonna go to sleep soon but the German term applied to it was something like "herald's mantle" (but in German)

[vocal vale]

living the life

[verbal bramble]

Now THAT is the definition of a fun time

[chrome rover]

new Adam Savage video about armor!

https://youtu.be/yS3TtXkhnjQ

He talks about (and wears) original medieval helmets from the MET.

There is a 1470 example!

[turbid shadow]

Dude! They dissembled the armet with wrapper!

actually so sick we need more of these

[chrome rover]

i bet youve seen this, but for the people who havent! :https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8LDwmI0RQA&pp=ygUYYWRhbSBzYXZhZ2UgdGVzdGVkIGFybW9y

not time appropriate, but it fits to the previous video

[turbid shadow]

Yeah its a very beautiful reconstruction

If Half sword has a 16th century renaissance dlc I would love to see greenwich harnesses be featured.

[chrome rover]

imagine needing to model every little groove of engraving

https://diligentdwarves.blogspot.com/search/label/Armour

where to find more about it ^

[turbid shadow]

It’d still be worth it though lol

[verbal bramble]

Oh yeah, ABSOLUTELY

Greenwich harnesses are an actual delight, I prefer the curves and sharp angles of gothic armor (in fact, a black gothic harness with latten and gold details is my dream harness), but I can't deny these are BEAUTIFUL harnesses

[turbid shadow]

A blackened harness is my ideal kit as well lol.

More or so Milanese though and a few things to make it more unique compared to the rest.

[verbal bramble]

I am interested, what do you have of it so far?

[turbid shadow]

I have added in some new ideas here and there but that's mostly it.

[verbal bramble]

Arming farsetto?

[void stream]

this

[verbal bramble]

Oh, right!

[void stream]

Parade shield, French (Burgundian) or Flemish (1470)

[fleet junco]

do yall think medieval dudes did drugs

[sterile crane]

theres one hungry man who loves some belladona

[mighty needle]

P1. Any society of people with access to drugs had some drug users.
P2. Medieval societies had access to drugs.
C. Therefore, medieval societies had some drug users.

[fleet junco]

awesome

[mighty needle]

P1 is an empirical claim that would be impossible to prove but alcohol helped build the world—even before humans populated Europe

human society has long been a conspiracy to manufacture food and drugs. and i'm not convinced that bread predates booze, as the latter is much easier to produce accidentally, and its effects on the will are also well documented

just imagine the crazy shit people got up to when they were drinking before the invention of law qua the formalization of social rules

they were the ones who initialized the concept of law!

[steep yoke]

hello I'm not trying to put rain on your parade but please be mindful of how far this conversion goes, I don't want it to end up violating any rules.

[verbal bramble]

Not that impossible to claim, really: Something close to what we know as flying ointment was described as early as the early 13th Century, and many plants in the Solanaceae family, both used in the flying ointment and very psychoactive indeed, are native to Europe. And "Das Buch der Cirurgia", by Hieronymus Brunschwig, describes a recipe for a "poison" to be given before doing surgery in a patient, which involves the use of mandrake and opium poppy.

I don't see a reason why the latter wouldn't be used by someone who had access to the ingredients, for something else than the intended use, and we know the former was used already (With the plants in other prepatations possibly for even longer).

Also, alcohol, if we count it as a drug, which I believe it should be counted as such, was used basically everywhere people lived.

There's also the liberty cap, which I think is native to Europe too, but there's no evidence that it was used. (Or none that I can find, anyways)

[mighty needle]

i would suspect that Europeans have used Amanita muscaria medicinally for hundreds or thousands of years

[verbal bramble]

Wouldn't surprise me, but I don't think there's any evidence that it was used. They definetly knew about it, though, as evident by Hyeronimus Bosch drawing one.

[lone osprey]

This makes more sense considering youre a marine biologist lol
You got any blueprints for the rest of your harness?

[mighty needle]

its abundance, brilliance, and proximity to human activity alone is evidence enough of its occasional use, but that would be inferior to any written accounts or archaeological findings as a means of supporting the idea of its conventional use

[verbal bramble]

Marine biology enthusiast and prospective marine biologist, but yeah :). Sadly, I do not, I am still drawing the cuirass

[verbal bramble]

Question: How does the square and triangle edge differ in protecting the wearer of a harness? If at all, that is.

[terse bronze]

the alcohol in question, for one

It's also almost sure at some point they experienced mutliple times of shrooms like the famous rye ergot fungus

[quaint shore]

I have a question, what purpose does having different shaped besagews serve? By different shape i dont mean “flower shaped or rondel” its more like, whats the difference of a square besagew and a cylindrical besagew

[weak halo]

Looks fuckin cool

[quaint shore]

true..

[grizzled hearth]

An interesting insight into besagew shapes in this video https://youtu.be/GXTE8crvHoU?t=1600 from 26:40 to 29:23. In this case with the adarga shaped besagews, Capwell mentions a possible Iberian connection however I think the more plausible reason is that because Cobham's crest was the Moor's head, the adarga shape was chosen for its Moorish connection

[quaint shore]

Well then.

[gloomy kettle]

hey guys, posting my art here asking if theres any improvements i should make in terms of historical accuracy

pls and ty

[terse bronze]

kettles could be bigger

the padded(?) garment under the brig is too long, it shouldnt be visible

the brigandine itself would benefit from a bit more shaping at the waist

[grizzled hearth]

Were coifs worn under kettle hats like that in the 15th century? I'd have to check but that seems to be sort of a reenactorism and might not really appear in the sources for that period but again I'd have to check

[gloomy kettle]

do u have any references?

[gloomy kettle]

i thought ab that too

[terse bronze]

try finding brigandine pics in here

with the search function

a bunch of people and myself have posted good ones

[gloomy kettle]

instantly found some and saw what u mean, understood now ty

[grizzled hearth]

Brigandines usually have a slightly lower waistline than breastplates do resulting in a slightly different silhouette. Capturing the right silhouette is super important

[gloomy kettle]

i see that now, i thought it should be more flat to depict a cheaper brigandine. would that be accurate or not really?

[grizzled hearth]

Brigandines aren't as globose as breastplates because of their construction, price has nothing to do with that. Brigandines were worn by common soldiers and members of the knightly class. While in the 15th century cheaper mass produced breastplates become a thing. Those cheaper breastplates are simpler, not as polished, and have more imperfections, but the general shape and function is the same as the expensive bespoke ones

[gloomy kettle]

understood, thank you 🫡

super helpful

[grizzled hearth]

I don't know much about brigandines so I can't say if cheaper ones have a different construction than more expensive ones resulting in a different outward shape and appearance in any given period but more expensive ones are clearly recognizable because the outer layer is made of richer textiles and they might have other sorts of decoration like on the rivets

I should mention I'm writing from my memory of several well regarded books on armour I read like six years ago before I lost interest in that topic. I've gotten back into armour very recently so I'm relearning a lot along with new info

[verbal bramble]

Give me a second

This is a brigandine made by Old World Armoury on the left, and a brigandine drawn in a manuscript painting on the right.

I would be willing to make an educated guess that, because of the velvet, the Old World Armoury brig is meant to be of fairly high status

[terse bronze]

It's a painting btw, not a manuscript

[verbal bramble]

My bad

[next orchid]

Not a lower waistline, but higher sides. It's an illusion

It's why Gothic cuirasses look longer than Italian ones

They have gussets/crescents of plate that make the sides higher

[next orchid]

It's also why they look like they have a similar silhouette to brigandines

The waistline is at the same height as normal breastplates

[next orchid]

It's also why Greek cuirasses look longer, why Japanese cuirasses (with the armpit plates) look longer, etc etc

Or 19th century cuirasses

If u chopped off the plates that cover the part where the lats are, you would get a similar silhouette to mid 15th century Italian breastplates

[vocal vale]

do you have pictures of greek cuirass

[next orchid]

I meant ancient greek

[grizzled hearth]

"Usually" wasn't an accurate statement but I still find that on some the waistline is further down towards the pelvis while the waistline on a cuirass is closer to the bottom ribs

[next orchid]

No, they both rest at the natural waist. Some breastplates don't curve in heavily at the waist and also do not follow its curvature downwards but go straight across, but they also have a plackart that does bend in heavily at the waist

If u think brigandines look like they rest lower, that's because they look longer, because their sides are longer

It's why Japanese cuirasses sometimes look long, when they really are the same size as European cuirasses

[vocal vale]

i’ve only seen this on 14th century brigandines / “coats of plate”

[next orchid]

Should be noted a lot of the reconstructions of the visby cuirasses suck

They're also mounted on mannequins too lowly

[vocal vale]

i just mean artistic

macpherson’s “weasel waisted” board comes to mind

[grizzled hearth]

I think you might be right the waistline being the same and I shouldn't have been so definitive in my intial statement. It's something I am considering. On some brigandines they flare out right over the pelvis while on a cuirass that flare begins higher because of how the skirt of plates works. I'd have to show this with images

[next orchid]

If you look at effigies they actually still bend inwards at the waist

[vocal vale]

there are a few that are nearly rectangular but yeah the “consensus” is about the same as a normal breastplate imo

this is a pretty nice looking example

[grizzled hearth]

I am talking about proper 15th century brigandines that flare out at the waist

These are nice tho

[next orchid]

Tbh it can still be a tube and have one row of lames that still end at the waist

[lone osprey]

not sure if its a fair comparison but these two are virtually the same length, 56 and ~55 cm respectively.
https://www.hmb.ch/museen/sammlungsobjekte/einzelansicht/s/schuppenpanzerjacke-sog-korazin-oder-brigantine/
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/23143

[grizzled hearth]

Does the skirt of plates on a cuirass actually make contact with the pelvis of the person wearing it?

Does this look like the skirt of the brigandine is making contact with his body and sort of resting on it?

I've never worn armour so I might be confused on how it actually interacts with the body

[next orchid]

No

[next orchid]

Major artist mistake is elongating the torso

[grizzled hearth]

A less idealized physique as well

[grizzled hearth]

Or perhaps his torso is overly elongated by the artist

[next orchid]

If you measure his proportions, both are resting at his waist at the sides (above his navel), just the front comes down low like a peascod cuirass

[next orchid]

This guy didn't know how to angle the torso

His pelvis is too short

But his waist is in the proper location if we assume he was standing up straight

(the front part of his brigandine ends at his navel, but the sides are at the waist)

[grizzled hearth]

I was also thinking he is wearing an oversized brigandine to accommodate his heavier build. Would you say the sides are lower below the armpit than normal because the whole thing is just bigger?

[next orchid]

His proportions are just awkward. His pelvis is like missing, his arms are too short, etc.

[grizzled hearth]

I concede

[next orchid]

Honestly monkey man fr

[grizzled hearth]

His ass looks huge as well

[next orchid]

I think the artist was trying to have him lean with an arched back

But didn't angle the torso correctly

[grizzled hearth]

Yeah

[next orchid]

With that in mind the proportions work a lot better

In terms of the overall

But still fucked up the individual parts

[verbal bramble]

Aren't brigandines fundamentally the torso of a doublet with plates riveted to it? Does this shape illusion also translate to arming doublets? If not, why?

[next orchid]

Doublets do look longer than Italian breastplates imo

I know cuz I used to draw cuirasses basically as just doublets

But I didn't understand the proportions of cuirasses very well

[verbal bramble]

Hmm... So should sewing up the torso of an arming doublet with a longer skirt (if that) be enough to make the fabric shell for a brigandine?-

[verbal bramble]

Ah, I see

[next orchid]

Maybe actually

Doublet without sleeves

I know sometimes its portrayed to literally just be doublets with plates riveted, like Monte

[steep yoke]

i don't think it is making contact with the pelvis, it's probably lifted off so if it gets hit it doesn't just put the force into the pelvis

[silver grotto]

I ❤️ the Beauchamp pageant

[lone osprey]

anyone have any refs of brigandines with lance rests?

[lone osprey]

interesting 🤔 thank you

[terse bronze]

not a ref but i used these as refs for this drawing i commissioned

[verbal bramble]

Ooo! That is a nice sallet + brig combo

[lone osprey]

Does it represent someone or was it for the armour mainly

[terse bronze]

My light french cavalry dreamkit

[verbal bramble]

Hmm... Are the elbow pieces held to the maille or sleeves or the metal strips with just the strap? Or are the elbow pieces pointed to the sleeves along with the strap?

[upbeat wolf]

based

[verbal bramble]

Actually, anyone got any resources on making a maille standard?

[upbeat wolf]

maille standard?

elaborate

[verbal bramble]

It is the collar of maille worn either by itself with a cuirass/brigandine, or combined with a bevor, to protect the neck from slashes and weaker thrusts

I think it has a fabric covering underneath the maille for comfort? That is my main concern with making one, making the maille should be relatively straightforward

[upbeat wolf]

ohhh yeah

I would throw some thick canvas under there

ottertex will work great if you're planning to get wet or sweaty

[verbal bramble]

Thank you

I think canvas about as thick as the doublet's core canvas, with maybe a softer fabric lining for comfort, should be good.

[upbeat wolf]

sounds like a good idea yeah

[verbal bramble]

Looking at other maille standards, they seem like they are sewn onto a simple collar, basically a band of fabric strapped closed with leather straps, and a lip of leather where the maille meets the upper neck. They seem relatively simple to sew and make.

Speaking of maille, was 15th Century maille heat treated in any way? Be it the typical heat treatment we know today, slack quenched, or even case hardened? Or were they left like soft iron?

[upbeat wolf]

that's really gonna depend on who was ordering it and how much they were willing to spend

definitely seen one or two case hardened examples, but I couldnt' tell you if they were meant for practical use or if they were more for showmanship

I will say they probably would stand up to a couple good hits.

truth be told, my focus is more on cloth and cuirass than proper maille

[verbal bramble]

Hm, understood, I will need to ask more people, I do want to have maille that can stand up to at least weaker thrusts where I need the maille

[upbeat wolf]

ohh then I'd probably look into the examples field commanders and such would have been rocking

it's a very "get what you pay for" thing back then

sex.

[weak halo]

It doesn't look very domed

[next orchid]

Yes there were techniques for hardening maille by quenching it

Actually wait

Might be misremembering

I'll reread alan Williams later

[verbal bramble]

You got the name of the book? I am willing to give it a read

[next orchid]

Knight and the Blast Furnace

[lone osprey]

anyone else think it looks like Memling was going to add a lance rest before painting over it? (like the totally different axe beak lol)

[terse bronze]

would be a weird placement wouldnt it

if you look at the examples I sent above the lance rest is always on the larger "breast plates"

[lone osprey]

I agree
but it also kind of resembles one to me, like an italian one

I was wondering if maybe he was considering him in a regular cuirass first or something

[lone osprey]

I thought maybe it would come roughly close to being mounted like one on this might have been

[terse bronze]

maybe

[sullen charm]

https://pin.it/4RuaSSbOG

[terse bronze]

Which wasn't the first gun anyway

[worn carbon]

Thought this would be a sweet addition to the game

[lone osprey]

funnily enough theyve shown it off but it doesnt appear
so soontm i guess

[worn carbon]

OOHHHH it's amazing to see it in game rendition already that's sweet!

[lone osprey]

yeah im hyped for EA

[vivid solar]

3 days until next fest

And a new trailer iirc

Hype

[turbid shadow]

New trailer?

[split lance]

I'm actually so hyped genuinely idc what the price I'm buying on launch or sooner if possible

[void stream]

me too lol, I don't care if i have a compromise i will just play Half Sword all day

[split lance]

🐌

Fact

[vivid solar]

For steam next fest yeah

One of the devs said there would be a new trailer

That is iirc

[turbid shadow]

Hmm I don't remember something like that

[vivid solar]

It was in one of the QNA posts

I'll try and find it

[turbid shadow]

righty ho thanks

[vivid solar]

Ofc

[turbid shadow]

piere le fou spilled the beans

[vivid solar]

Holy shit

A whole EA-adjacent version of the game for free for a week???

Devs are damn generous

[gentle hill]

yeah

i love half sword

[void stream]

only two more days

for peakest game of all times

https://tenor.com/view/one-peak-one-piece-one-piece-cry-its-so-peak-gif-13413926760013023520

[fleet junco]

i wanna see brigandine sneka peak

[silver grotto]

I hope there'll be a great bascinet in ea

[vivid solar]

Doubt it

[vivid solar]

The amount of players is gonna be insane for this new version

[split lance]

This is why halfsword Devs are genuinely the best

I was gonna buy it on launch anyways but this free trial is insane

[young prairie]

halfsword devs are the goats

[vivid solar]

For real

Not a greedy bone in their bodies

[dusty orbit]

are there any real life examples of pollaxes with heads like this?

the little spike

[split lance]

They will be rewarded I guarantee the silksong method of giving a reasonable price will quadruple their sales

[void stream]

mods do your job

[verbal bramble]

You mean this bit?

[dusty orbit]

yeah

I've only ever seen it in this game

seems like a strange choice compared to the axe head or the hammer

[steep yoke]

huh 💀

[void stream]

it was a guy sending scam images

https://tenor.com/view/riddler-paul-dano-new-rockstars-thumbnail-does-he-know-he-doesnt-know-gif-27552850

[silver grotto]

I hope eventually (maybe in full release or whenever they add hair) willie will get regional clothing

[silver grotto]

I know they're going to add hair, I mean whenever they do it

[verbal bramble]

Maybe it is a compromise between a beak and a hammer?

I have seen one similar to that, I don't remember where though

[silver grotto]

I think I've seen it on one with an axe on the other side

[void stream]

I actually never used this polearm in the game, is good and efficient?

[vivid solar]

Yep

[young prairie]

I'll miss bald willie

[gentle hill]

what the flip

i have never seent his

i feel like it makes him look 20-15 years younger

[vivid solar]

This is so trippy

[grizzled hearth]

That haircut looks very modern, I hope we get period cuts

[next orchid]

its jaime fucking lannister

[weak halo]

Now he's fabulous Willie

We'll be able to make shampoo commercials with Willie

[split lance]

Genuinely scariest image

[rain glade]

Adding the hair really makes him look like the voice actor

Ik thats what hes based on but it like really makes it closer

[chrome rover]

got this book two days ago (for 12 euro).
anyone else got it? I havent read it yet but the images and sources seemed good, plus the little text i saw was great

this is how the pages usually are:

with sources to each image, including who made the armor and when

It goes from maille armour to the peak of plate, plus weapons.

[void stream]

https://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg67/0001/info,thumbs#col_info

[verbal bramble]

I find it funny how on the lowest left picture, the armored combatant at the left looks like they are on a fetal position

[quaint shore]

Is that a covered bevor that the guy with the sallet is wearing?

[strong pagoda]

why is that guy poking a needle in his butt?

[lone topaz]

its might be an arrow that hit him in the butt?

[white fulcrum]

real answer: he freaky

[night kindle]

he got a lil thirsty shall we say

[verbal bramble]

Our boy here is a masochist with that arrow?

[ruby crypt]

That's disturbing

[gentle hill]

i love jan matejko

[deep void]

Does anyone have a good source of references for Italian and Iberian cuirasses?

[void stream]

@deep void

[deep void]

Thanks!

[craggy atlas]

he hungers

[split lance]

He craves

[verbal bramble]

How did he got that hoodie?

[quaint shore]

This image is tripping me up really badly

[steep yoke]

average eastern European

[grizzled hearth]

Reconstructed faces of Roman emperors

[subtle elbow]

Да, its true

[gentle hill]

Tak, i also think its true

[night kindle]

Are there any historical cases of armor being not just fluted and decorated, but completely guilded like you see in later periods like the 16th century? I can’t find anything online and want to guild my cardboard armor historically if possible

(NOT MINE) Like this for example but within the 1450-1470 time period

this armor was made by @cold thorn, like I said its NOT MINE

[cold thorn]

One of my reference :D

[silver grotto]

There are tons of examples in art

A lot of these depict kings, emperors, and saints

[night kindle]

Sorry @silver grotto, I should clarify. I meant like this:

Not fully guilded, but still highly decorated

Was this a thing within the 1450-1470 range?

with inlays and complex patterns

[night kindle]

That’s so cool!!! You’re quite skilled with your crafts :)

[verbal bramble]

The last of them is one of Lorenz Helmschmied armors, made as a field harness for Maximilian I, JUST outside the time frame

Fluting, complex filework, and I assume latten decorations like the ones Lorenz Helmschmied uses, were indeed by the latter part of the time frame in gothic armor (the complex filework was for the higher end harnesses)

[grizzled hearth]

Some of those gilt surfaces are etched which I don't believe was invented before 1500

[verbal bramble]

I have some of Lorenz's harnesses, and I remember a specific cuirass that had crazy filework on the backplate near the neck

[verbal bramble]

Indeed, all but the last harness are of the 16th Century, the decorations are very fitting for the 16th Century in particular. (Side note: Gold was not etched into the harness, but these shapes were etched and the gold details painted with a mercury-gold amalgam, set to the fire so the mercury evaporates. A specific armoring book I have elaborates on this process)

This backplate was made by Lorenz Helmschmied, and is JUST above the time period, by about 10 years at most

I remember there were some harnesses that included gold and latten details with a blackened surface for extra drip, by at some point in the second half of the 15th Century, if I am not mistaken. Don't quote me on that one tho, I don't remember the source.

[grizzled hearth]

I can't speak on armour decoration but all the full armour in the game currently is Italianate so besides polishing doesn't have any other surface decoration. Of course there is 15th century Italian armour with engraved letters but those are very small and other decorations on the helmets but those aren't in the game

[verbal bramble]

Oh yeah, we currently only have an italian harness, which besides latten fittings, dyed straps, polishing, and some engravings, have no decoration AFAIK

The devs ARE planning on adding more armor styles, including the gothic style, so we will see more stuff soon, which can be decorated

[grizzled hearth]

Does what we think of as "high Gothic" armour even exist before the 1480s or 70s at the earliest?

[verbal bramble]

I am not sure, honestly, I would wager it would be at earliest the late 70s

Which, honestly, is a huge shame... The devs might add a 10 year wiggle room, but I wouldn't count on it.

[grizzled hearth]

There is clearly distinctly German armour they can add but the term "Gothic" isn't really appropriate

It is subjective and an invented term so it doesn't really matter

[verbal bramble]

As are many terms for the styles of armor, for better or worse

[verbal bramble]

BUT! We do have some beautiful harnesses fitting in the time frame of the game, the latest part of it, and are indeed "gothic armor"

[grizzled hearth]

German 1450s and 1460s armour is clearly stylistically and technically distinct

Just not fully "Gothic" yet

[verbal bramble]

It is a bit less decorated than what is known as "high gothic armor"-

[verbal bramble]

In a sort of, transitional form between Kastenbrust and Gothic? If that makes sense?

I have some archives in my computer from Matthias Gnoll, that are from just barely 1470, that seem pretty gothic to me-

...It might be, just barely out of 1470, sadly

[grizzled hearth]

Yes and also export armour

[verbal bramble]

I heard of export armor indeed, were there other exporters of armor other than the region we now know as Italy?

[agile crescent]

Historically accurate trust

[verbal bramble]

Pff- HAHA!

[lone osprey]

There is armour that is darkened or blued

In the game

[night kindle]

Thank you so much @verbal bramble and @grizzled hearth!!!

I appreciate it :DD

[verbal bramble]

Oh yeah! I forgot about it for a second

Yeah, italian armor can be blackened, as I think any armor can

[grizzled hearth]

Yeah I love it

Something you also see on Italian and Italian export armour I should have mentioned

[fiery gorge]

Carbon finish

[lone osprey]

this helmet
thought to be c.1470-90 so possibly

Effigy of William Bardolph died 1441

1445-55 detail of The Story of David and Goliath [National Gallery London]

also i dont really care about the technical differences of types of gilding I just see shiny surfaces in different colours lol more interested in it as a fashion - did they apply a golden/brassy/coppery surface or not basically

[verbal bramble]

Oh yeah, they for sure had gold/latten on other surfaces

[lone osprey]

1450(c.) Stefan Lochner - Triptych altar of the city's patron saints, left wing; Saint Gereon [Kölner Dom]

[copper parrot]

no

[verbal bramble]

I think it could've been a hole for holding the helmet during heat treatment, and making sure it doesn't warp during heat treatment

The lower hole could be for a plume holder tho

[dry flicker]

Nah it’s the hole for the player to jack into Willie

[verbal bramble]

Thanks, I hate it

[fleet junco]

have you seen those big plumes that is shaped like a cup

[lethal adder]

is this channel specifically for irl references or is art based on historical armor allowed?

[turbid shadow]

both as long as they match the time period for the game

[lethal adder]

gotcha

[humble pagoda]

Would plate armor cost more than maille?

[steep yoke]

Yes

100%

[ebon turtle]

curious: were most crossbows arms made with metal, as seen in the most recent announcement teaser, during the time halfsword is set in? I ask this because I have never seen a crossbow with metal arms before!

i think this is the right channel sorry if it isnt

[silver grotto]

I'm pretty sure it was steel most of the time

[ebon turtle]

thank you 😄

[verbal bramble]

No idea, really, as full maille by this point was obsolete. If you wanted cheaper armor, you would either get less pieces or something like the so called "jack chains"

[lethal adder]

also depends on if youre getting simple munitions armor or wanting something tailor made

[vocal vale]

yes, but i feel like a munitions breastplate would probably cost about the same as a maille shirt

[lethal adder]

im by no means an expert but from what ive learned it depends on what the crossbow is meant for. hunting crossbows for instance could be made with steel arms, or it could be made with wood, a composite of the two with wooden arms reinforced with a bit of steel, or wood reinforced with boiled leather. cost was also a big factor, the more steel used in its construction is going to increase its cost exponentially.

examples of crossbows or reproductions meant for combat that ive seen are almost exclusively made with steel arms, some with its arms wrapped in leather to protect it from the elements i suppose

[verbal bramble]

I assume munitions' breastplates are not heat treated?

[lethal adder]

yes. munitions gear was made of mild steel usually and it was meant to be just stuff that is easy for smiths to churn out. one size fits all, not hammered smooth/polished or heat treated etc.

cheap-ish way for lords to arm militias and formal retinues that didnt have a lot of money

[verbal bramble]

I don't think mild steel existed as we know it back then, but I think I understand what you mean.

[lethal adder]

ye, i just use the term to refer to lower quality steel and such

[verbal bramble]

Oh, hm... Wrought iron was used at the time, and I imagine it was used for the lower quality armor

[lethal adder]

id imagine so. like i said earlier im by no means an expert and im sure theres things i often get wrong. im just going off of articles i read from time to time or things reenactors and historians talk about in videos.

so take what i say with a grain of salt

i love armets so much... favorite thing to do is click on the knight icon for like 10 minutes straight until i get a cool loadout with an armet and then die three duels in and repeat the process. most fun ive had in any game in recent memory.

[gentle hill]

Armets are too sexy

Hope theres more in full release

[lethal adder]

tbh they just need to make every hat and helm in the game an armet

[vivid solar]

Graham Turner my goat

[vivid solar]

Why

[next orchid]

no

particularly not in Germany

composite/horn prods were preferred in 15th century Germany

steel bows existed though

france and england liked them more afaik

[fleet junco]

mull candle armor

[lethal adder]

bc it would be cool

[lethal adder]

truke

[next orchid]

bossed escu

[vivid solar]

We're getting arms and armour customization. You can just choose an armet

[vivid solar]

This has always been one of my favourite paintings of his

It just tells such a fun story

[lethal adder]

its really good

[vivid solar]

Actually inspired my current story WIP

[lethal adder]

is there a digital archive of his works? most of his art ive saved has watermarks plastered on and i cant find a good collection of his work without them

[vocal vale]

you'd be able to find some info about the materials through the goll thesis

[lethal adder]

theres a lot of personality and life in his art thats hard to come by when it comes to historical depiction, hes definitely my favorite artist when it comes to medieval arms and armor. havent seen much of his art for later periods but from what little i've seen its very good

[vocal vale]

this needs to be in HS

[lone osprey]

Knight and blast furnace says examined munitions breastplates were predictably made of iron or low carbon steel

[lone osprey]

Same with that Churburg breastplate with the face

[lethal adder]

i love little faces in armor.

[weak halo]

What if there was a joke Saint George mode that pits you against a big lizard that mauls Willie

[lethal adder]

need squire npcs to put my armor on for me and polish it in between games.

[weak halo]

Willie licks it clean

He's a freak like that

[lethal adder]

if he misses a spot there should be a little mini game where you beat him with a stick

[weak halo]

🪅

[vivid solar]

He has a website with most of his art. There are lots that you can only find in the books he illustrates though. And he only posts his art with the huge watermarks unfortunately

[lethal adder]

drat.

[vivid solar]

I bought his original written and illustrated book "Wars of the Roses". It's magnificent and features the art free of the watermarks. I started it a while ago but stopped. I need to go back and finish it, it's very informative and well written

[lethal adder]

ill be sure to check it out, thank you 😊

[vivid solar]

Ofc

[vivid solar]

Note it doesnt feature all his art

He has works that are much earlier and later

This, for example (one of my favs)

[lethal adder]

that one is very good, the one i have saved is slightly higher quality i think? unsure but here you go if youd like to save

i think this is my personal favorite of his

[vivid solar]

Awesome. Some more of my favourites

[vivid solar]

Wow that has a blue filter on on it

[lethal adder]

hollywood filter

[vivid solar]

Lmao

[lethal adder]

thank you!

[vivid solar]

If you cant tell, i have a lot of his paintings saved

[lethal adder]

yea lmao

most of the medieval art i have saved is Angus Macbride

[void stream]

I love Grahan Turner

[lethal adder]

or just misc stuff ive picked up

some of Mcbride's work goes stupid crazy hard

aura farming

[vivid solar]

Hell yeah

[lethal adder]

jupons are so cool. love jupons.

[verbal bramble]

The third one with the soldier with an arrow to the arm makes me feel bad for some reason

[vivid solar]

It's based on a real historical letter

I'll find it

[ebon turtle]

ohh ok thank you. also your pfp is pretty cool

[verbal bramble]

Ping me when you find it

[vivid solar]

Pastons at Barnet

Online Catalogue | Historical Art | The Medieval Art of Graham Turner | Giclée Prints | 15th Century | Pastons at Barnet

'Moodre (mother), I recomande me to yow, letyng yow wette (know) that, blyssed be God, my brother John is a lyffe (alive) and farethe well, and in no perell off dethe. Never the lesse he is hurt with an arow on hys ryght arme, be nethe (beneath) the elbow; and I have sent hym a serjon (surgeon), whyche hathe dressid hym, and he tellythe me that he trustythe that he schall be all holl (whole, ie. healed) with in ryght schort tyme.'

[verbal bramble]

Oh, I see!

[vivid solar]

It's really cool

[next orchid]

thanks. i think strictly speaking, wooden crossbows were the most common, since they seem to have been the most common amongst non-soldiers. for proper soldiers, i cant say what the proportion is without looking at musters

[terse bronze]

Some hats being worn over helmets

[lethal adder]

why didnt all soldiers back then just wear bedsheets or ghost costumes over their armor so that way the enemy would never know if they were wearing any at all? are they stupid?

[silver grotto]

The armour is definitely fantasy, but the targe this guy has is pretty neat

[verbal bramble]

Nah, sometimes the drip was THAT good

[lone osprey]

crudely attempted to imitate this one with commissioned dragons dogma 2 mods lol

unfortunately fighting scaled down dragons in that game is not feasible

also ever since CannonFodder mentioned sword couching I wondered if that german St George painting would qualify. thought it resembled it - tucked under the pit

Looks like there's a hauberk under this fella's gown
MS Thott.290.2º 096r

was hoping this was an example of a couched sword too but I don't think so on closer look lol just shortened

would love if hands changed grip around the crossguards/grips of swords in HS

[fleet junco]

what does this say

[vocal vale]

for sure

[lone osprey]

sweet

[humble pagoda]

would anyone happen to know when the windlass was used with a crossbow?

[verbal bramble]

Usually for very heavy crossbows, say 900 pounds. I think these were used for sieges and the like? Don't quote me on that last part though

[rancid dragon]

soooo...

I do now see that the weapons list got closed

a bit sad that

[fiery sinew]

fairly niche but im fairly certain these mostly fit within the time-frame, i really like their boots

[terse bronze]

fairly certain they're riding hosens but rolled the fuck down

type shit

[quaint shore]

ya

never seen riding hosen over armor like that however

[void stream]

I absolute love those high boots

or Riding Boots

[terse bronze]

me neither but it's cool

[quaint shore]

i’ve only seen it on coustiliers but this is swag

[fiery sinew]

i hope they add them to the game one day

[terse bronze]

Got some coustillier pics to share?

[quaint shore]

na

only that one video from alex the history guy

[chrome rover]

Which armour is that? *if it belongs to someone specific

[quaint shore]

Does anyone have any references to those weird bevor things which was just a piece of metal attached to a maille standard?

I swear someone has drew it here

in #art-🎨

[verbal bramble]

Prob based on Maximilian I's field harness, made by Lorenz Helmschmied

[chrome rover]

Was thinking too, but the sallet was so wide-brimmed i thought it was a different piece, thanks anyway.

[verbal bramble]

Here

[chrome rover]

Also!

[verbal bramble]

I did say "based on", the harness has some things that vary from the original

[chrome rover]

what is the difference between the Max. I field armour and the Sigismund Armour?

because they look identical

is the Sigismund name just a false?

[verbal bramble]

I think the Sigismund was gifted- Both are definetly real

[chrome rover]

"Sigismund Armour" on the left, Max. I Field Armour on the right

[chrome rover]

ah thanks

[verbal bramble]

I think it is the same harness, actually

Possibly it was a harness originally made for Max, then later gifted to Sigismund?

[chrome rover]

i know Google isnt a great source, but it claims it was comissioned by Max and gifted to Sigi for his wedding

great wedding gift

[silver grotto]

Maybe you're confusing that for this harness

[chrome rover]

is that Max's armour?

[silver grotto]

Yes, but the bevor is not original

And the legs should probably be mounted up higher

[chrome rover]

and maybe a bit tighter at the top

the legs*

[chrome rover]

also where did you find that image? its super high quality

[silver grotto]

The website of the Kunsthistorisches Museum in Vienna

[chrome rover]

thanks! i havent checked out their website because i dont wanna be spoiled by all the stuff that might be in their collection

i need to go there

[silver grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/fact-checked-fact-checked-true-sigismund-kcd2-kcd-gif-12154432158578270300

[lavish mural]

ik this might be a stupid question but i always wondered how is the glove not falling

like how does it hold on the wrist

[lone osprey]

I don't believe they definitively know who the armour is for - but that it was most likely for Maximilian. I believe the notion that it was for Sigismund derives from his depiction in this: https://gdz.sub.uni-goettingen.de/id/PPN662525515?tify={"view":"toc"} (lol totally wrong book posted originally) which is not considered adequate for it to be his armour by historians today, because the dating of the armour and the age of Sigismund makes little sense because he would have most likely been too old to use it or fit into it.

there is more info on it in the post below (forgot the Last Knight catalogue talks about a different one from 1480). IMO they dont know as much about it definitively as they seem to think

[next orchid]

it is

[next orchid]

this is probably a couched sword since he seems to be using it to overthrow his opponent

Here note, this is the fourth guard with the short sword in combat with its plays and its arrangement
Note, arrange yourself into the fourth guard in combat as follows: Hold your sword with the right hand by the handle, and with the left grip the middle of the blade, and hold it under your right armpit, and plant the one hilt forward firmly to the chest, and hold the point against the man.

Note a good lesson
Know, you shall come to the fourth guard from all other guards with planting, hear it as follows: When you stab to him from a guard, if it is then the case that you land your hit correctly, so that your point sticks in the armor, then immediately wind the hilt to your chest into the guard, and force him in front of you as such, and don’t let him come away from the point, so he may not stab nor strike again.

Pseudo-von Danzig

from the Liechtenauer tradition

[next orchid]

i hate talhoffer though. cryptic ass manuscript. made for people who only like looking at pictures fr

[fast pagoda]

Good for knowing how certain things should look as long as you know the technique described. esp because the good text commentaries lost most of their original or all of their illustrations

Same with Paulus Kal

For instance in both Kal and Talhoffer there are illustrations for the short sword guards, taking out some guessing

[verbal bramble]

So for all we know, we have no definitive answer on who the harness was made for?

[next orchid]

dare i say id rather use mair

[lone osprey]

this is great
thank you

[lone osprey]

yeah even the KHM uses circumsantial evidence for who they think possessed it - its not as well documented as his 1480 harness which has receipts

[verbal bramble]

The 1480 harness? Mind refreshing my memory?

[lone osprey]

this one

[verbal bramble]

Oh right! And I assume, we know this one belongs to Max I

[next orchid]

its the better harness

#sorrynotsorry

[verbal bramble]

I disagree, I personally find the other harness prettier

But it is a gorgeous harness nevertheless

[lone osprey]

if you trust all of this lol. so actually it's circumstantial too but these receipts seem like they correspond closely to it. also Pierre Terjanian thinks that painting above depicts it, while Kirchhoff claims that it depicts the 'Sigismund' one and there are problems with both claims

[next orchid]

average medieval academia

[verbal bramble]

It seems like a mess... But, I trust this harness is for Max1 indeed

[next orchid]

i was gonna draw maxi in the armor once but too many lames

and rivets

[lone osprey]

I find the KHMs argument convincing that Sigismund was too old for it but yeah a complete mess lol

[next orchid]

and decorative bits

[lone osprey]

Giulio Camagni did a nice illustration of that for his graphic novel

enjoyable read too way better than the slop tv show and other period pieces

[fast pagoda]

If you like

[vocal vale]

holy peak

[grizzled hearth]

Does this have anything to do with the battle of Calliano

Or was he not present

We have at least two armours (Gaudenz von Matsch and Roberto da Sanseverino) present at that battle

Or very likely to have been

[grizzled hearth]

Never mind von Matsch wasn't there either

[lone osprey]

nah but it ends on Maximilian's failed attempt to coerce the Swiss to help him retake Milan in 1516 lol so peripheral to his own failed war with Venice from 1508-16. but I think he was in the Netherlands putting down the Flemish revolt while that battle you mentioned was taking place

[grizzled hearth]

Lol for some reason I thought that art was of Sigismund but that is interesting

So I was typing with him in mind not Maximillian

Both of whom weren't at the battle I mentioned

[verbal bramble]

Holy- Look at that drip!

[chrome rover]

tight fit, and sometimes tightened around the forearm and wrist by the use of straps. Some other gauntlets might be able to open or close depending if they're on the hand yet:

(the video i pulled those images from)

https://youtu.be/cgd9ZZfUn1o

it doesnt have sound

[silver grotto]

Iirc is sew to a glove and the cuff has a strap on it, but the strap isn't tightened for mobility reasons

[vivid solar]

Sexy

[silver grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/fact-checked-fact-checked-true-sigismund-kcd2-kcd-gif-12154432158578270300

[lone osprey]

my favorite part about that one is the Mudejar engraving. Moorish ornaments on an Italian/Spanish harness. also looks cool from behind.

tfw 1490-1500

[vivid solar]

[rancid dragon]

Ye ever thought if whether or not we'll get more true Armets

You know

Not closed helmets labeled as armets

But proper Armets with the fun complex ways and areas and hinges to open them

I wouldn't mind some Bascinets as well

All tho by this time that would only really be Scotland

[lavish mural]

Thanks dude

[vocal vale]

i don’t think any close helms would fit in this period really

they kind of phase out in 1450 and then back in in 1500

but yeah we’ll definitely get more armets

[void acorn]

Iberian, right?

[royal wave]

Bicoques?

[vocal vale]

probably should just call them “early close helms” because a bicoque is a different/unknown helmet

but as i said before, those phased out about 1450 before their resurgence in the fourth quarter of the century

[fiery gorge]

🗜️🗜️🗜️🗜️🗜️

[fiery gorge]

Crossbow belonging to a knight, estimated 1450, owner was decapitated in 1471

[verbal bramble]

What did the owner do to get themself decapitated?

[lone osprey]

Rebelled against the emperor

Baumkirchers famous for it

[fleet junco]

it looks like a banana

[fiery gorge]

Lowkey

[errant echo]

Sounds about right

[sullen charm]

These are slightly too late (book from 1496 I believe) but this could be a good representation of some regular soldiers in the late 15th century

[sullen charm]

The main trend seems to be that it’s very common to have a fully armoured upper body and head but to leave the legs completely without armour

[sullen charm]

I noticed in image 2 many of the soldiers have red crosses but I can’t tell if that’s meant to show identifying marks on armour or if it’s injury’s

[lone osprey]

identifying marks

diagonal/st andrew's cross = burgundian, straight or greek cross = swiss

[sullen charm]

Ahh ok

[lone osprey]

in this second one the straight red crosses are probably habsburg, straight white crosses swiss

[lone osprey]

do you know what the source is for this one?

[sullen charm]

It’s called kriegsbuch

Let me find who wrote it

[sullen charm]

Phillip Mönch

He was a gunsmith

[lone osprey]

👍 cool thank you

[next orchid]

Kinda looks like they're wearing greaves lol

They're not but whenever I see this one I think that

[bright token]

2 eye holes sallet 😄

I always wonder is this just how artists drew spaulders back then

[sullen charm]

Yeah, I think it’s just multicoloured pants

[sullen charm]

What book/source is this?

[vivid solar]

1478 tourney at Westminster by Graham Turner

My favourite art of jousting

[bright token]

Sorry for late reply, I saved it from medieval advisor page on facebook.

The page said it’s from Das Buch Belial

[sullen charm]

Ah thanks

[sullen charm]

So turns out, it was common place in the Elizabethan era 1570-80s to be really specific to heat steel on armour which could change its colour, commonly to red or a dark blue and apparently even colours like purple sometimes but does anyone know if this was done in the 15th century?

[sullen charm]

Also if anyone cares this is the Almain Armourers Album

[verbal bramble]

I don't know if it did, but the dark blue does come from tempering armor, which I think was done to some armor pieces in the time frame of the game, it is not likely they used it for decoration though. No clue about the red.

What I do know was done was blackening the armor piece with oil for, among other things, protect it from rust and make it easier to take care of, gild it with the use of a mercury-gold amalgam (and likely other methods), wearing some garments in conjunction with the armor for communication and decoration reasons, one or two cases of painting, and of course polishing it.

[sullen charm]

These are some examples of colours you can get

[sullen charm]

I believe the other colours also come from tempering just at different temperatures

I am pretty sure it’s much the same as like engines on fighter jets turning orange and purple after the engine has been on for a while

Idrk I know very little about metal working

[lone osprey]

Matthias Goll:
The oldest extant blue-etched armour is Friedrich III.’s horse armour of 1477 (HJRK A 69).97

page 87 of Iron Documents

no other secondary sources I am aware of mention anything older for 15th century plate armour

[verbal bramble]

Hmm... Be aware that the tempering colors mean how the armor was tempered, which greatly involves the performance of the armor. I find it unlikely that anything much further than purple (supposedly the ideal tempering range according to modern armorers) was used

[lone osprey]

but he also says:

It is possible that many armour parts once were blued, but as the blue oxide-layer is very thin, it got polished off throughout the ages.

[sullen charm]

Yeah, the reds and such of later Tudor armours were purely aesthetic. Not that they were parade armours or anything but the type of high end garniture I’m referring to in the 1580s (which reportedly from surviving examples, art and literature came in many colours) could cost up to 2 million pounds if they were to be translated to modern money and were worn by the highest of elite nobles in England

[verbal bramble]

Hmm... Perhaps they could have used a process similar to russeting? These pieces are definetly not period-accurate for the game, but it showcases russeting well enough

Basically, it is using a chemical compound to create a reddish finish on the steel by creating a thin and uniform layer of red rust

Or they could've also just painted it lol

[lone osprey]

according to the Victoria and Albert museum's entry on a similar arour:

The design is painted reddish brown to denote that the armour should be heat-treated to turn is a deep blue.

https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O78116/the-almain-armourers-album-armour-design-halder-jacob/

its believed to correspond to this one
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/23939

[magic sand]

Armor from the new Legacy of Valor trailer looks 🔥 🔥 🔥

[vivid solar]

[lethal adder]

visored barbute........

https://tenor.com/view/mike-mike-ehrmantraut-scream-ai-bcs-gif-13936852466482969483

[vocal vale]

dark and darker reference

[weak halo]

I'm so sick of the for honor helmet

Someone please euthanize whoever made it

[verbal bramble]

You want the large or comically large syringe?

[rough fulcrum]

last chance to look at me hector

[steep yoke]

🛎️ 🛎️ 🛎️ 🛎️ 🛎️ 🛎️ 🛎️

[quaint shore]

halberd straight to the chest

[torpid urchin]

they should lowk lobotomize fat tony and throw him into the Houska pit

[vivid solar]

Kill da bastard

[sullen charm]

Interesting… thanks for that! I’ll have to keep looking in to it I guess

2/10 ragebait 😆 ✌️

Ngl a breastplate and plackart looks cooler

[lone osprey]

There are extant examples of mid-late 16th and early 17th century armours that were painted with lacquer/paint containing wax - the armour of Nikolaus IV Radziwill in the Kunsthistorisches museum (with red painted bandwork) and the Greenwich armour of Friedrich Ulrich Duke of Brunswick (private collection but described in a 2013 article by Leslie Southwick) - i think the paint with that one forms part of the gilding

[sullen charm]

Oh ok

Cool

But I imagine that wasn’t really a thing at the time of the game

[lone osprey]

No real evidence to support that to my knowledge, no

Certainly heaps of images of gilt and very darkened armours from all around western europe in the games timeframe though

[steep yoke]

petition for me to delete this

[vivid solar]

https://tenor.com/view/lets-burn-it-beavis-fire-beavis-and-butt-head-lets-destroy-it-gif-8079047401231626912

[steep yoke]

the populous have spoken

[vivid solar]

Democracy!

[steep yoke]

https://tenor.com/view/i-love-it-gif-18812641

[white fulcrum]

what is this hellish degeneracy assaulting my eyes 🔥 🔥 👀

[verbal bramble]

What did I miss?

[terse bronze]

Stuttgart Cod.bibl.fol.32
1450 Germany

[vivid solar]

Somebody posted shitty AI generated fantasy armour as a joke

With a bare chest

[verbal bramble]

Ah, good riddance

[craggy atlas]

https://tenor.com/view/exanima-chair-fall-gif-22249963

[oblique oriole]

is this a halloween easter egg with the teeth

[smoky jacinth]

You cut the gums, those are the roots

[quaint shore]

does willie still have his baby teeth or am i tripping

[vivid solar]

Wait why tf does he have fangs

[haughty creek]

Those are the roots of his teeth

[vivid solar]

Why does he have two rows of teeth

[lethal adder]

apex predator

[magic sand]

@devs can we get this helmet, it would beat all the fruity twerp helmets we currently have

[latent drift]

to early for the game

[verbal bramble]

Give me one, just one, proper source this helmet in particular isn't made up by either a fantasy artist or GenAI

[latent drift]

the ai most likely used a sugarloaf helmet for reference which is to early

[verbal bramble]

Also, the helmets you see were not "fruity twerp", they existed within the time period of the game, and were made to look like that for many reasons, like a good compromise between protection and-

[verbal bramble]

That, or the "For Honor" LARP helmet, or some knockoff from it

...Which one could argue is a sugarloaf

[latent drift]

i suppose the closest thing that would fit in the time would be a armet but even then they are vastly different

[terse bronze]

The image took some time to load and I already knew it was gonna be bad but Jesus when it finally did load I wasn't expecting something THAT bad

[verbal bramble]

Oh yeah, those two helmets have almost nothing in common. The "For Honor" helmet is just pure fantasy, not meant to actually be used in combat-

[latent drift]

indeed i was thinking that as the only similaritys are the fact that they enclose the head

[verbal bramble]

Kevlar, what did you expect from someone calling the period helmets "fruity twerp"?

[verbal bramble]

Ah, understandable

[terse bronze]

Oh no I was expecting something bad, like an ass repro. Then I saw the mention of AI so was expecting something really bad but this is just beyond bad

[verbal bramble]

So you were expecting "shitty sallet repro" levels of bad, not "For Honor helmet knockoff" levels of bad?

[terse bronze]

No I was at first expecting a bad repro

Then before the image load I saw a mention of AI so I was expecting something vaguely resembling something real but AI slop

Then the image finally loaded and it was worse than anything I was expecting

[magic sand]

This is the helmet the crusaders wore to take back the holy land

[verbal bramble]

No, it is not, the first crusade happened at 1099, and this is NOT a helmet of that time, because this specific helmet is made up

And even then, that is just a little less than 400 years before the time frame of this game

[void stream]

This guy at this point is just trolling

[magic sand]

Why is it called the Crusader helmet then?

[sullen charm]

You’re getting rage baited

The ai people are rage baiting

[verbal bramble]

Either some GenAI made it up, or whoever wrote it made it up. The helmet most closely associated with the crusades, honestly I cannot tell you why as my knowledge about it is not much more than the fundamentals, is the greathelm or bucket helm:

[sullen charm]

Just ignore them

And ask if we can take the post down

[verbal bramble]

Actually, yeah, would be appreciated

[sullen charm]

Idk who to ask

But

We did it last time

[verbal bramble]

This is still out the time frame of the game, being last seen by the early 14th Century. This one is from the 13th Century, from what we now call Germany

[sullen charm]

Hey there has been another ai image from the same person could we please take it down

[verbal bramble]

Wait, he posted an AI image before?

[sullen charm]

Yeah it’s deleted now but they posted an ai knight wearing a sugarloaf but with a bare chest

If I remember correctly

It was just under the for honour stuff they posted yesterday

[terse bronze]

You really never be 100% sure it's rage bait because there is genuinely a lot of people that think like this

[sullen charm]

Yeah

We are in a historical reference channel though

I’d prefer randomly generated visuals stay out of this

[verbal bramble]

Yep, there was some guy in the now closed "list of weapons to add" thread who posted a gif of some Hollywood-looking guy with a spinning ball mace, called it a morningstar, and when I told him that it doesn't even look from any period of the game, he went ahead and said some pretty foul shit

Don't know what was that guy's problem, he's no longer here (either he left or got banned, I don't know and honestly don't care that much which of the two was the case), good riddance

[sullen charm]

Like it’s all good not to know about history and to just like the game but don’t act as if games are research in the historical channels

[verbal bramble]

Oh yeah, AI genned bullshit in general does not belong anywhere near this thread, nor the game

[sullen charm]

Anywho I noticed on this chart of I think the underparts of armour a padded head garment in the corner. It was to my knowledge that helmets tended to have a built in suspension system rather than a padded hat thing does anyone have further information on this?

[sullen charm]

*or at least in later helmets like armets and salets

[verbal bramble]

I think I remember seeing padding like this for frogmouth helmets?

[sullen charm]

I guess extra padding would make sense for jousting

[verbal bramble]

I am not sure how accurate this is, but this is what I could find. Seems to match well enough with the padding, and indeed would make sense for jousting.

[sullen charm]

Yeah ok

I’ll see if I can find any thing in a museum or such

[terse bronze]

I believe the musée de l'armée in paris has a surviving example

[sullen charm]

Thanks

[lone osprey]

Also google KHM Helmhaube

also interestingly goll noted a couple sallets that seem to have had holes for lacing in removable liners like the jousting helmets

[verbal bramble]

How interesting!

[lone osprey]

oh yeah i hadnt looked at it hard enough but as Goll also says the 1732 sallet is definitely a rennhut for jousting too lol

but yeah interesting that 1797 looks like a more typical sallet with the holes

[vivid solar]

Me when mfs read "1450-1470" and bring up the crusades

[terse bronze]

mfs just don't care to read

[vivid solar]

Fr

[white fulcrum]

abysmal dogshit

[vivid solar]

Kill it with fire

[void stream]

Kill it with holy water

And pray 50 Hail Marys

[silver grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/fact-checked-fact-checked-true-sigismund-kcd2-kcd-gif-12154432158578270300

[lethal adder]

redditors and their obsession with great helms have been a disaster for the human race.

[void stream]

you forgot about spangenhelm

[lethal adder]

yea...

[void stream]

average tik tok medieval knowledge

[lethal adder]

dont even get me started man

like i know im not an expert on this stuff but seeing the absolutely inane things that these armchair historians espouse as fact (most of these things they learn from idiots like shadiversity) makes me feel like a genius

"fun fact! (the most untrue or extremely exaggerated thing ever said)"

i remember seeing one fat idiot try to use an empty soda can and a fucking ROLLING PIN as an accurate representation of the effectiveness of blunt weapons against plate armor

and then said fat idiot idiot smugly smirked at the camera and said " 'nuff said."

ive never wished i could throttle someone through a phone screen more than that freak.

[vivid solar]

Lmfao

[lethal adder]

such a beautiful and rich period of history with so much recorded fact thats easily accessible and yet so many defer to dumbass tid bit historians on reddit and tik tok

i hate the internet. alas, i love the friends inside my phone so dearly and so i am beholden to it.

[vivid solar]

Internet really is the land of the stupid

And the heartless

[vivid solar]

Graham my kingg

[verbal bramble]

I see the internet as the land of everything... Both good and bad. Just that the bad is actively promoted, and the good is a bit more difficult to find

[vivid solar]

This is my favourite one of his 'breakdown' pieces of arms/armour

[vivid solar]

Would he sick if I could recreate this in the EA, I've always loved how this man's equipped

[verbal bramble]

The Wayback Machine and Anna's Archives are such examples of good bits on the internet, there's some REALLY useful information in the Wayback Machine for making armor if you type the (now defunct) website of an armorer borealissteel.ca, for example

[verbal bramble]

Oh yeah, that's an amazing kit

[vivid solar]

It's like a desert

[lethal adder]

mmmmm..... mmmmm.......

https://tenor.com/view/homer-homer-simpson-simpsons-the-simpsons-drooling-gif-16372115206532389459

[vivid solar]

Terrible place to be, though there are oases here and there

[lethal adder]

i would love some brigandine

[void stream]

We prob gonna get

[verbal bramble]

I do want to make myself a "swiss halberdier with that "modern" gothic drip" kit, if a bit less dramatic than the armors made by the great armorer Lorenz Helmschmied

[verbal bramble]

Oh yeah, we def getting brigs

[vivid solar]

For sure

[lethal adder]

i sure hope so, i dont prefer it over plate but its so cool

[verbal bramble]

I suppose that makes sense. At the same time, there are things you can do to make said oases easier to access, and more frequent, if you know how and were to look.

For instance, forums, they are always good

[verbal bramble]

Unless the forum in question is 4chan or something, that place's a cesspit

[lethal adder]

need me a cloak fr.

[vivid solar]

Exactly. If you have a map you can find the oases easier. Though few come so prepared

[void stream]

Surely the developers have already confirmed that they want to make the game more diverse in terms of armor.

and weapons

[lethal adder]

yea

as far as weapons go i dont think theres anything else i could hope for that isnt already in the game

[verbal bramble]

Yeah, that makes sense, and I have seeen it myself: You won't believe the amount of the peers in my class, that reach for Chat-GPT the moment they are confronted with a problem or even an inconvenience, and a few less don't even speak well

[lethal adder]

besides a proper war-flail

or a war-scythe

or a kriegsmesser

hm

[verbal bramble]

Hmm... Perhaps more falchion variety would be nice?

[vivid solar]

Glaves would be cool

[lethal adder]

ehh i mean there isnt much more you could do with the falchions already in game

theyve already got the standard looking one and the more cleaver looking one

[verbal bramble]

I suppose it would be for more historical variety

[lethal adder]

yea true

a more angular blade option would be pretty cool i spose

[vivid solar]

We're not gonna get much "variety" in terms of stock weapons because theyre all gonna be fully custom as far as im aware

[lethal adder]

or a clipped blade

[verbal bramble]

OOO- THAT is a lot better!

[vivid solar]

The enemies will have more variety because of that I assume

[lethal adder]

but idk if such styles are anachronistic or not

[verbal bramble]

Hmm... Is it historical to the time frame? The only examples I saw were of the 14th Century, which is at least a bit more than 50 years off the time frame

Which is a shame, as these things are damn interesting

[vivid solar]

Teaser from january

Totally custom weapons

[lethal adder]

i mean technically such things still could be used in the time frame? grand-dads sword and helmet and whatnot

but thats not really the point of keeping a strict time frame

if you allow one or two things just because its plausable for such things to be used it opens the gate for other stuff as well

[vivid solar]

There was a LONG debate about this just the other day in one of the suggestion threads

[lethal adder]

lol

i mean yea its true that things like bascinets didnt just cease to exist once sallets became the prominent design for the common soldier for instance but they want a specific time frame for a reason

idk, i think we have a lot of very good variety as is and im not really left wanting as far as that goes

[verbal bramble]

I do def want more advanced, complex halberds than the ones we currently have, something like this one:

Instead of the "axe-like socket" construction, if you know what I mean

[rough path]

This was the most common design in most countries, so it would make sense for them to add it

[verbal bramble]

I don't remember the halberd being used outside the HRE and the Swiss Cantons during the 15th Century

[rough path]

Similar were used by the Spanish royal guard

Not identical however

[verbal bramble]

That's by the late 16th Century, out of the time frame of the game

During the mid-to-late 15th Century, the halberd was a weapon of only the HRE and the Swiss Cantons, everyone else used either some variation of the glaive (like the french voulge) or some form of bill (I have seen, for example, a burgundian soldier in a painting using a bill-guisarme)

This is said burgundian soldier:

The painting is of the burgundian wars between the swiss and the burgundians, marked with a + and a X respectively

[silver grotto]

I'd argue that the volgue is a halberd

[terse bronze]

Vouge

Or voulge

And uh ..? At this point you can argue that anything with a blade on a stick in a halberd

But really a vouge is not a halberd

Vouge/voulge/glaive

[verbal bramble]

Nah, this is a voulge

Though, due to a misconception started by "Those Damn Victorians"(TM), you do see a lot of photos of early halberds classified as "voulges"... Which is not the case

[silver grotto]

Ah, I was thinking the other thing that is labeled the same

[verbal bramble]

Ah, yeah, that's not a voulge, just the Victorians being Victorians

The weapon often called "voulge" is just an early halberd, it got called like that because of the Victorians wrongly classifying early halberds as voulges

How did it happen? No clue really

[sturdy lily]

Insane pommel

[bright token]

What’s the polearm with red grip called?

[fast pagoda]

Just needs the other one

Normal sharp sword, unsharpened in the middle, big ass pommel spike

[vivid solar]

Mfw they see their enemies stab themselves with their own pommel

[next orchid]

true nerd emoji moment

[vocal vale]

fiorepilled harnessmaxxer

[next orchid]

^

its interesting though that his 2nd sword is sharpened though

his first one is to be used with the murderstroke, so striking with the blade is likely not a major concern (since he wants you to strike with the hilt and pommel)

[sterile herald]

Don't know if this is the right place to put this but, could the Jester that took the East Tower be the Jester we saw in the fools update video? https://youtu.be/oRTKOIZZ09Y?si=2SjV45sCUM-lnhOk

[fleet junco]

just pierre le fou

[silver grotto]

Anyone have any idea of about how think a targe/ecranche would be?

[white fulcrum]

i got more pictures of these!

[void stream]

damn why they look so small

[sullen charm]

Quick question does anyone know which particular country/ region the game is meant to be in

Just regarding potential regional armour differences

[lone osprey]

well if Frankenberg is anything to go off of its definitely leaning into German speaking lands despite all the insults being in English

but as per Sam's pinned message in this channel

Western Europe - Holy Roman territories, England, France, Italy, Spain, with possible flexibility on western regions of Hungary and similar

I get the impression that they arent ever going to locate it somewhere specific / historical to not limit their creative freedom but that's just my opinion

unless they have said somewhere that they actually are setting in a specific Frankenberg but based on all the little loredrops in the latest announcements, that seems doubtful to me

[sullen charm]

Ok

Cool

[lone osprey]

also just so im not misleading you the context of the pinned message is for where in europe references are acceptable lol - not actually where the game is set

[sullen charm]

yeah alright

[vocal vale]

it’s been said that it takes place in the holy roman empire

the bulk of the armor in game as of current tho is italianate

[vivid solar]

Well we know now that it takes place in Frankenburg

[fast pagoda]

It’s confusing to me because when I first asked mcwonderbeast if Frankenberg was based on the real Frankenberg or just a play on “Frank”, he told me it was fictional. But someone else asked him if it was the real Frankenberg in Austria or in Hesse, and he said Hesse.

So idk if they want it to be a Frankenberg in Upper Hesse but just not the real one? Or at least not based/built 1:1, etc.

[lone osprey]

Thats interesting i hope they confirm which but i guess early access will probably make it clear too

[bright token]

I really love besagew shaped like this so I hope they show up in the game. Armour made by Rudolf Harywald

[dapper ibex]

We need capes too. Lol

[rough path]

What if we could use shields like this in game

[terse bronze]

doesn't fit the time period of the game

[rough path]

Unfortunately

[void stream]

https://tenor.com/view/guys-look-at-this-gif-25324583

[vocal vale]

this is a really nice harness

[silver grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/moist-moistcritikal-moistcrit1kal-penguinz-penguinz0-gif-6970813881893662375

[frozen plover]

Can we for the love of God get some cuirasses that don’t have those stupid fucking leather straps holding them together please

Every fucking one has leather

[latent drift]

thats how cuirasses work man

there is simply no other recource they could use leather is the most simple and optimal material

[fleet junco]

i think hes talking about the plackart being attacked to the breastplate

via the leather strap

[latent drift]

i see

[fleet junco]

@frozen plover

[frozen plover]

very good

Would like a backplate tho

[fleet junco]

soon

[terse bronze]

Frontplate only supremacy