references♥_1450-1470

[next orchid]

this seems to mostly be a thing for long hair though

i also think they used ties

actual hairnets show up in germany and italy in the 1480s i think for men wearing them under their helmets.

this is for the joust right

also as for padded, remember theres hair under there

so it would always look padded

if u have short hair u dont need it

i think sallets universally had liners

[verbal bramble]

I do have longer hair, so that's why I am thinking about either making my own, or using a regular hairnet- Probably the latter, as it is easier to get and make

[next orchid]

gosh i wish i remembered the group that made historical hairnets

[lone osprey]

yeah I thought they looked vaguely similar but I get that independant liners werent really a thing for regular helmets

but it looks so odd right is it just a hat with earflaps and a folded up brim?

[next orchid]

oh u meant the thing on the forehead

might be something similar for fitting

wish i saw this piece above 144p lol

its like the coifs the earlier guys wore though i presume

[lone osprey]

by the 16th century the hairnets specifically appear to be called 'geplatten hauben' [und sternen - wonder if this is an enhg variation of Stirnen lol makes no sense to me otherwise] as in 'flattened cauls' (best I can interpret lol) by Maximilian and apparently in his context explicitly associated with Hungarian/Bohemian fashion

[lone osprey]

I think the sewing technique is called sprang

[ancient pivot]

wrong time period

[dim lynx]

No its 14th to 15th

[terse bronze]

reading is hard

[dim lynx]

my mistake lost myself in the centuries

[next orchid]

Yes

That's the one

[earnest dust]

Bit early, don’t you think?

[solar cargo]

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/26440

armet with wrapper, italian, circa 1460 - 70

[silver grotto]

If I remember correctly, the wrapper is not homogenous with the armet, but they both are made by the same workshop

[fast pagoda]

Yes I believe so

[terse bronze]

they were made by James Workshop

notorious weapon maker during the middle ages

notably made a lot of warhammers

estimated about 40 000

[void stream]

Some italian references

[vocal vale]

right

it has a cutout for a visor rod… thing… i don’t remember the name

[ancient pivot]

looks like the visor has a hole for the little handle bit, but they just don't line up

[vivid solar]

Would soldiers really have pennons on their helmets like that?

[vivid solar]

Knights displaying their own pennons or soldiers showing allegiance?

[terse bronze]

Burgundian archers

there's more, here's the one with gendarmes

there's more too but i don't hae them on hand rn

[vivid solar]

When are these from?

[terse bronze]

Master W A (the artist) was active 1465–1490

Burgundian Ordnances describing how each soldier "roles" should be armed and dressed like is from the 1470s

[vivid solar]

There's a whole manuscript on this?

[terse bronze]

there's multiple individual pieces that were commissioned iicr, but I can't find the website listing them all so I just went on archives.org to find more

It's not the most optimal quality but it's what I have

also this, from a french ms

gendarme be drippin

[vivid solar]

Man did they know fashion

[terse bronze]

no flag but aura farming

[vivid solar]

Is that a red helmet?

[terse bronze]

Velvet covered sallet

[vivid solar]

That's so cool

[terse bronze]

type shit

[vivid solar]

Just a decorative helmet right

[terse bronze]

No?

[vivid solar]

Holy shit that looks amazing

[terse bronze]

It's a functional war helmet that is just pimped

just a couple french lads on a wall

[vivid solar]

Wouldnt the velvet get wrecked though

[terse bronze]

yeah it would

just replace it

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1409881081838178365/1412152354916270281/attachment.gif

[vivid solar]

I mean they probably just wouldn't use it for war in that case though

[terse bronze]

Nah they would

[vivid solar]

Why ruin such a work of art

[terse bronze]

Because they have the money for it

if you have money for it, medieval warfare was kinda drip or get dripped on

It also was kinda of a life insurance. Showing off like crazy point a massive arrow on you meaning "I'm worth a shit loads of money alive"

[vivid solar]

Mhm

[vivid solar]

Are there any sources showing velvet covered helmets in battle?

[vivid solar]

Rich people look so boring nowadays

[terse bronze]

except when they have enough money to get a gold plated super sport car

Ends up being the same thing but with modern objects lol

[vivid solar]

True

But like fashion wise

[terse bronze]

For instance, Charles the Bold, duke of Burgundy who got dunked on by the swiss in 1477 (They stole his gold, pearl and feather hat and many other ridiculous stuff from his camp, and body) once ordered a sallet which costed approximately as much as 4 "average" complete armors

[vivid solar]

Jfc

[terse bronze]

"Item, for having garnished a sallet, and made on it a similar ducal crown, with no precious stone, decorated with big leaves, embossed and punched through; and between the leaves, flowers, similarly embossed; and in the middle of the flowers, some big golden(?) seeds, some enamelled in white, some in blue; and some other works: 70 lbs.

Item, for having made, on top of the sallet, a button of punchworked and golden-laced letters, installed on a large leaf, and inside, a branch from which springs roots speading over the sallet; and above, a large double leaf, enamelled in white and blue: 15 lbs."
(Argenterie Ducs de Bourgogne, V4, p48)

another, this one's worth around 2-3 harnesses

[vivid solar]

Nuts

How did the Swiss steal his shit?

[terse bronze]

By killing him

Charles' hat plundered by the swiss, shown in an inventory manuscript + a repro of it

[vivid solar]

Now that is goddamn striking

[terse bronze]

Another depiction of him

@vivid solar If you got some free time, i cannot recommend this lecture enough https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5j5JfagtT3c&t=325s

[vivid solar]

I'll def check it out, thanks!

[chrome rover]

Are there examples of helmets beside the sallet being decorated like this?
I seem to only see such decoration on sallets

[terse bronze]

I've seen bascinets and iicr armets too

[chrome rover]

Thanks!

also what does iicr mean

[terse bronze]

if i can recall

[chrome rover]

ooooh that Armet is gorgeous

[vocal vale]

there are tons of velvet covered barbutes both extant and artistic

[chrome rover]

i know that its not 1450-1470, but do you know any examples of Close Helmets being decorated like that?

[vocal vale]

kettle hat

[vocal vale]

no, only burgonets

[chrome rover]

thanks anyway! ❤️

[terse bronze]

so.. sallets.. 😏

[vocal vale]

https://tenor.com/view/druski-rage-angry-annoyed-whatever-gif-5126333390325209476

[verbal bramble]

Yes! Why is every rich person walking around in suits of the same basic colors with only some variation?

[verbal bramble]

And that is, indeed, VERY impressive

[vivid solar]

exactly

[quaint shore]

what helmet is this?

[terse bronze]

great bascinet

[quaint shore]

knew it

[silver grotto]

Does anyone know what the "gothic" sallet with the integrated visor is based on?

[terse bronze]

do you have a screenshot

[silver grotto]

No, and I'm away from my computer

It's the sleek one with a very straight tail if that helps

[humble pagoda]

Would you think it'd be a good idea to organize the references?

Like put them in a collection

[lone osprey]

pretty much pointless
if you just download the full thing from here:
https://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/volltextserver/17203/
and open the thesis itself, it is divided into sections that organize the references
you can just ctrl+f through it for whatever you're looking for

and the thesis has hyperlinks to each reference image set so you can just click on it in the text and it will open the corresponding reference image .pdf

dont mean to sound blunt lol

[humble pagoda]

It just says ref_arm

I want to make it organized to where it has the actual armor piece name.

[lone osprey]

open the thesis doc

i mean you can if you want lol seems like a huge waste of time to me when theyre organized with hyperlinks according to the author's own organizational system

[humble pagoda]

this doc?

[lone osprey]

yeah
I just open that, ctrl f e.g. sallet, return a few times, and there's his section on his name for the helmets, Type-V
ctrl+f Type-V and you can find every sallet ref image set

everything in [ref_arm_x] can be clicked on and automatically opens the reference image .pdf

[humble pagoda]

I clicked one and this happened

[lone osprey]

have you changed the folder structure from the download?

e.g. goll2014_iron_documents\ref\ref_arm

[humble pagoda]

its just in downloads?

[lone osprey]

did you download it from here: https://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/volltextserver/17203/

[humble pagoda]

I did

[lone osprey]

strange it works for me, I just unzipped the folder

the links open for me fine in sumatra reader and chrome using the default folder structure.
if you did want to organize the references, you would do it fastest finding the names of each type of armour and searching and then cutting them into corresponding folders, e.g. heIII refers to war hats, so search that and all the .pdfs with warhat references will be isolated

[terse bronze]

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/21984 ?

[silver grotto]

The one I'm thinking of is a bit closer to this

[terse bronze]

https://www.khm.at/en/artworks/schaller-373375-1

[silver grotto]

I don't think it is the exact one though

[silver grotto]

The exact one in halfsword

[feral token]

genuine question, whats up with milanese chestplates and being so damn flat??

why does it hug your torso so tight

[robust tendon]

wdym

like in the game or?

[feral token]

irl

I remember wearing one (yes it wasn't tailored to me) but I was like

[robust tendon]

as far as i know the historical examples are globose

[feral token]

"damn this shit would hurt, theres not room in between the gambeson and the chestplate"

[robust tendon]

as is the case with like every style of breastplate/cuirass ever, they’re all rounded to some degree

none of the real life stuff is totally flat

[feral token]

perhaps the one I wore was too small then idk

either that or a poor reproduction

I was quite small

[robust tendon]

Maybe, idk what one you were wearing

If it was from one of those online shops then the quality is questionable and it would most likely not be properly tailored/shaped

[feral token]

no the guy who let me wear it did buhurt

[robust tendon]

oh yeah that explains it, buhurters don’t have historical armor most of the time

and it was for someone else

[feral token]

similar to this but the hips were less curvy

[feral token]

really?

[robust tendon]

well yeah if you look at most buhurt kits, they’re mostly modern styles or very very loosely based on the real stuff

there are some that are decent history wise but it’s mostly modern sport harness

[feral token]

you know I don't think I ever took a good look at any buhurt kits

[robust tendon]

they also wear a fuck ton of padding for safety reasons which is not historically done

[feral token]

that part I do know

[robust tendon]

padding was much more minimal for the reasons of comfort

[silver grotto]

This is the one I'm referring to

[feral token]

oh yeah speaking of sallets

I have a question about the accuracy of this one

(I know the bevor is incorrectly shaped, I'm getting that fixed soon)

[robust tendon]

shaping is pretty off from the looks of it, from the skull shape anyway

if you want the accurate stuff it’s not cheap, costs a lot to commission a knowledgable smith

[feral token]

unfortunate

I only had enough for my brigandine

even then it has issues closing correctly

[robust tendon]

though there are a few reputable online shops were you could get some stuff, like tomala. These are also not cheap

[feral token]

do you know where I could get a good sallet?

[silver grotto]

All I know are some armourers

[robust tendon]

https://tomala.lublin.pl/en/produkty/helmet-145-one-piece/ this guy has a few sallets

very expensive, over 2000 euros

[feral token]

HOLY SHIT

[robust tendon]

there are also armorers that can be commissioned which may be cheaper

some good ones to look into are Maks Izobov, Piotr Feret, and Roman Tereschenko. Those are the few i think of

[feral token]

maybe I should just stick with the buhurt stuff

[robust tendon]

in any case armor isn’t cheap if you want to be accurate unfortunately

[feral token]

buhurt was so much cheaper

[robust tendon]

especially if you want to wear a full harness

[feral token]

yeah that is

[silver grotto]

I think the cheapest you may find is about £1,000

[robust tendon]

i think the cheapest full armor i know of was like 7k ish? Don’t recall

[feral token]

whats up with the harness's being around the same price as helmets?

[silver grotto]

For a sallet

[feral token]

also why are they so expensive

[robust tendon]

takes a lot of work

[silver grotto]

There aren't any big guilds either

[robust tendon]

also highly skilled work to produce this stuff

[feral token]

I kinda wish I couldn't die of old age so I can learn all these skills for myself

[robust tendon]

some armors take like months of work iirc

[silver grotto]

Depending on the armourer it can take up to a year or more

[robust tendon]

and these prices are like just for the armor, you’d also have to buy arming clothes to wear underneath

which is a whole other problem

those would be cheaper but not cheap

[feral token]

why is it that these take longer than buhurt armor?

[robust tendon]

Idk really but i suspect buhurt stuff is mass produced

Real historical armor needs to be fitted to the wearer

[silver grotto]

iirc even the gloves worn under the gauntlets are pricey

[feral token]

buhurt stuff is also fitted though?

[silver grotto]

Less so due to the padding and stuff

[feral token]

ah

also do you know if buhurt armor could be adjusted a bit?

[silver grotto]

And the thicker steel too

[feral token]

like if it doesn't fit quite right after a while and would need to be made bigger

[silver grotto]

Probably

[terse bronze]

also i'd like to add that they weren't wearing gambesons under plate harnesses

But yeah it was either way too small for you or just very wrongly shaped

possibly both

[feral token]

maybe I was just a fat kid

(not really)

[lone osprey]

🐜

maybe he can tell you

[lone osprey]

my guesses
only because the devs like churburg

[grizzled hearth]

Are these files part of a larger database of items from Churburg? If so I'd love to see the full list

[weak halo]

Because it's raised from a single piece, you can probably find the same model or get an armorer to copy it for much less by having it be a welded helmet

[lone osprey]

https://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/volltextserver/17203/

download this and ctrl+f churburg in the references folder

[grizzled hearth]

This is great, much appreciated

[humble pagoda]

Would this visor be real or just an artist's creation.

[void stream]

you should post this on #1287593473217790034

[terse bronze]

No reasons for it not to be real

[next orchid]

yes, this manuscript uses similar artistic devices with anachronistic great helms to portray an older time

(the same as French artists actually)

i wouldnt say its far fetched though

but really, i would not utilize this source

the constant use of falchions might also be because of either the latin/greek, or because it is in the near east

[feral token]

whats the point of that?

is it more durable?

[weak halo]

No, just historically accurate

A good weld is just as strong as full metal

[feral token]

what little sense it is

to spend that much more money on something so negligible

[weak halo]

Raising a full helmet is the historical way to do it, some people are willing to pay for absolute authenticity

There's a couple of guys, Swedish I think, that built a full suit of late 15th/early 16th century armor entirely with tools from the time period iirc

[feral token]

can you tell the difference between a welded one and a normal one?

[verbal bramble]

Depending on how good the armorer is at welding, it CAN actually impact how strong the helmet is

Since I know jackshit about welding, and I don't plan on doing any welding, I think I will be doing my helmets raised once I have enough tools to start armouring (which will take a while)

[silver grotto]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/DLAsjIwMNEU/?igsh=cmJmMDRkdDJlZzBx

via_armorari

Likes

4218

Instagram

[wraith pewter]

Not visibly, at least not usually, the welds are typically ground out from the exterior, and I'd assume the liner covers interior weld marks that couldn't otherwise be ground down

[verbal bramble]

Indeed, you do not see it on the outside at it is ground clean, but you do see it on the inside of the helmet

[feral token]

I mean whatever people wanna spend their money on ig

[wraith pewter]

Yeah, I mean there's nothing really wrong with getting a helmet made that way, again, it's not going to be noticeable

[humble pagoda]

Anyone happen to know Polish?

I found a document on helmets in another language that might be Polish.

This is the 1st page of the document

[verbal bramble]

Forgot to reply here, but indeed, the weld needs to be good: If it isn't, it will be weaker than the metal surrounding it, so one would need to ask themselves if the armorer is good at welding (or can weld at all)

[weak halo]

Good welds hold together ships and steel beams, I'm not afraid of them holding armor together

[verbal bramble]

True, good welds hold armor together, my worry wasn't that, my worry is an inexperienced welder messing up the weld

[thorny otter]

it is polish. I know a bit.
To be honest, deepL will also help you...

However, speaking of Polish and helmets - look for Daniel Gosk's Sredniowieczne kapaliny z ziem polskich na tle europejskim, as the textul part is great (tho in polish), but it also features very exhaustive pictoral typology of kettle hats

[terse bronze]

one interpretation of those covered cuirasses/brigandines often seen in french ms

[humble pagoda]

I searched it up, but I can only find the book to buy. :\

Its only 79 dollars

[verbal bramble]

Woah- That's a beautiful blue color, is this brigandine based on any particular specimen? Or just art?

[terse bronze]

Art only afaik

[verbal bramble]

Aww, a shame, but still beautiful

Actually, what types of cloth feel the most like period cloth used for brigandines? I am interested on making a brigandine as one of my first armoring projects when I finally get more tools for it and make the doublet

[terse bronze]

Leather, Velvet, Linen, maybe silk too ?

[verbal bramble]

Hmm... Any particular type of linen cloth? Like for shirts, hankerchiefs or the like?

[silver grotto]

Made by old world armoury for those wondering

[terse bronze]

Like the massive watermark says lol

but yeah

[silver grotto]

Mb I lowkey can't read lmao

[void stream]

Frescoe on the northen wall of Santa Maria, Mesocco, Tessin, CH- 1459-69

and we got these guys with weird helmets

[grizzled hearth]

These are great

I love frescoes

[vague kite]

i seen the kentucky ballistic video on this. it should be added as a 1 time use. no reloads. and hard AF to aim

[terse sorrel]

I feel like being one time use would complicate its use as a battlefield weapon..

[vague kite]

and also make it a melee. the one in the video has a spike to use as a sword while you cant reload

[terse bronze]

That's not really what the spike was used for tbh

[lost pawn]

hi guys i love jan van eyck. okay bye

[bright token]

armet(?) made by Olexiy Moskalenko

[mighty needle]

it looks more like a great bascinet to me, but i'm no expert

[terse bronze]

It's an armet

[mighty needle]

what makes it an armet?

[terse bronze]

how it's built

it's tight around the neck, closes at the chin and opens with side hinge(s)

too early for the game but i love this armet

[mighty needle]

do all armets close at the chin?

[terse bronze]

"yes"

there's also close helmets which are also called armet sometimes

[mighty needle]

[terse bronze]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42oEPWVGNBw

as far as you understand that it's mostly a modern difference

[chrome rover]

I have a question, just out of Curiosity.
Were sabatons ever worn without plate greaves?

I usually only see them with plate greaves, and sometimes plate greaves without sabatons, but never sabatons without plate greaves.

[terse bronze]

Good question, personally i've never seen it

really curious about it if there's like 1 obsure source somewhere

[civic glade]

I cant imagine a functional reason for doing it, and ive never noticed it in any period source

But im not like an academic of these matters either

[humble pagoda]

Where does this come from?

[turbid shadow]

Italy probably

[terse bronze]

The Battle of Clavigo
Altichiero da Zevio
Capella di San Giacomo, Padua, Italy

99% sure it's out of the timeframe

[humble pagoda]

I'll make a thread for reference discussions.

Reference Research

[bleak ore]

Is Forge of Svan a good place to get brigandines

[white fulcrum]

no

they do not have good brigandines

[bleak ore]

(Sad noises)

[weak halo]

Isn't a bicoque?

[vocal vale]

bicoque doesn’t mean anything

[robust tendon]

if anything it's just another word for a close helm

[vocal vale]

or in some interpretations a barbute

[white fulcrum]

can you elaborate further?

[vocal vale]

there’s only one source where it’s mentioned which likens it to another helmet we have no frame of reference for

the description you do get of it is so vague that it can only be said for certain that it is pointy and protects your cheeks which fits the description of an armet or a barbute or a secret other helmet, but since there’s literally no sure way of knowing what it means and it has so strongly been used with something it doesn’t refer to at all it’s better to retire it altogether to avoid confusion

[rancid apex]

Anyone know good armor for IRL sword dueling with long sword arming sword and hand and half sword

or just In General

[chrome rover]

Not talking from experience or anything, but since nobody else is responding.
I see a lot of long sword sparring being done in three-quarter armour or something slightly less, and for the rest i guess anything realistic and well plated.

in no way professional, just what ive seen!

the type of "three-quarter" armor i mean (this Robinswords)

he does longsword dueling professionally, so id say that armor is good for armored longsword sparring

[white fulcrum]

thank you

[rancid apex]

Thank you for taking the time to respond

[rancid apex]

Awesome and thank you

[rancid apex]

I gotta find his soaring videos

Sparring*

[vocal vale]

like “unarmored” HEMA or armored (metal) HEMA?

[rancid apex]

Armored

Sorry left that one out

[rancid apex]

The important part

[vocal vale]

sword shop has neat overlays

[rancid apex]

Ah Ty

[vocal vale]

that’s where this is from

[rancid apex]

What’s there website?

[rancid apex]

That’s where robinsword got that from (I almost forgot about him I feel super ashamed)

[vocal vale]

it’s like swordshop.ca or something

[rancid apex]

Also where’d you get that killer pfp

and banner?

[rancid apex]

Ty

I CANT TANK YOU ENOUGH

THANK*

I can finally get My HEMA gear

Going to do a half sword inspired one mixed with the black knight from holy grail

maybe both probably both

[vocal vale]

talhoffer manuscript

[vocal vale]

do you have a club you attend

[rancid apex]

No

needed to find one before I get the armor

[rancid apex]

sweeet

[rancid apex]

Does anyone know where I can find and buy or at least read meyers art of combat

[next orchid]

It's not just mentioned in one source fyi

We also see that they have visors

It's not just protecting the cheeks, it's also that they join together. How does that describe a barbute?

[next orchid]

Wiktenauer

[rancid apex]

Ty

[vocal vale]

“come joining together” in my mind implies that they’re projected inward but not actually joined

but the visor thing is damning

do you have the other source on hand i’ve never seen it

[fast pagoda]

What is a berruer

I looked it up and only got a little hamlet and a surname

[vocal vale]

as far as i know ain’t nobody know

[terse bronze]

From what I found in dictionaries"berruier" could reference :

A medieval Warrior
A picard regionalism for "berrichon"
A helmet

Need to be dug up further cuz that shit is bothering me a lot

Another wiki dictionnary talks about a helmet worn by archers in the XVe century

Without going more in detail or even citing a source

There's also Jean Colombe "Le Berruyer" who was born in the 1430s in Bourges which I believe was part of Picardie in the 15th century don't quote me on that doe

Because the inhabitants of Bourges are called Berruyer

So what if, and I might very well be extrapolating like crazy, but when they say "like the berruers" could it means "like they do in Picardie/Bourges/Flanders" ? Seems far fetched ig

The original french text is like so:

"faczon comme souloient faire les berruers"

"manner in which the berruers have the habit/custom of doing"

or "in the manner which berruers are made" but idk

[next orchid]

Yes in moffat's source books

[next orchid]

Berruier etc also seems to be something that is a part of the helmet

[vocal vale]

this doesn’t seem crazy to me

a neat theory that i think is worth looking into if possible

[next orchid]

Jehan nicollas orfeure dud’ s’ pour auoir esmaille de neuf la garnison du bicoquet a visiere... Receu viij escuz facon des garnitures du bicoquet & aussi de larmet... satin & cuir pour mettre dedens les couroyees pour le bicoquet...
Here, it seems to not be the same thing as what the author of the inventory thought an "armet" was. It can also have a visor (as well as straps or "leathers").
salades, bicoquets et bassinets
Here, it is not a sallet nor a bascinet.

(bicoquet is the more common form of the term; although tbh in french itd basically be pronounced the same lol)

[vocal vale]

fun little puzzle

do you have any personal interpretation as to what the helmet could look like or be?

as for the straps, being distinct from an armet, a sallet, and a bascinet, and sometimes not having a visor the only thing i could think of is a grand bascinet

[next orchid]

i think its a form of armet personally

[terse bronze]

I agree

[vocal vale]

i.e: hinged cheeks, or a broader use of the word?

[next orchid]

i think both what we call armet and also close helm. i think silhoette was more important for them though

[next orchid]

by the time theyre writing, "bascinet" is basically =grand bascinet

[vocal vale]

the joining around the cheeks + pointy head thing is what’s mainly vexing me

[vocal vale]

this pertains to a text around 1450 i assume ?

[next orchid]

yes 1452

imagine if its one of these lol

[vocal vale]

this is all that fits the bill that comes to mind but it’s obviously not exactly time-place relevant

YEAH

[next orchid]

LOL

[vocal vale]

brainwaves

[next orchid]

im also partial to it being a close fitted great bascinet

but honestly who knows

the info we have is so little

[terse bronze]

they couldve had pictures in their little books

[chrome rover]

what are these helmets called?
ive seen them before but i dont know the name

[robust tendon]

if i recall they’re just grand/great bassinets

[weak halo]

Most people call them Venitian great bascinets

[chrome rover]

ah thanks, i wasnt sure because it seems unusual for a bascinet to have armet-like cheek plates

[void stream]

Ms. germ. qu. 12 - Die sieben weisen Meister
Dating: 1471

[sterile crane]

Why do these guys like covering their faces in cloth so much

It looks really cool but why

[vocal vale]

aura

[lone osprey]

Cold af over there

[sterile crane]

Oh wait yeah

Red and green germany's Santa militia

[weak halo]

Doesn't cloth also protects from light cuts?

[terse bronze]

It does to a degree

[fast pagoda]

Mostly against a glance or badly aligned hews

[coral drum]

Does anyone know of any sites/tailors that make period correct tunics? Looking for something viking age with some embellishments and natural dye. Not happy with my medieval collectibles outfit thrown together over the course of a week lmao

[bleak ore]

just curious what part about brigandines from steel mastery or forge of svan makes them not accurate?

[robust tendon]

from a quick look at both of those armorers it's mostly the shaping

[bleak ore]

I see thank you

[robust tendon]

for reference this is what they should look like

mid-late 15th century ones at least

[bleak ore]

So this one is from steel mastery but it seems to be correctly shaped, is it because the plates are too large or is it still the wrong shape.

[white fulcrum]

it's not shaped right

[bleak ore]

I see what you mean now that I have done a little bit more cross referencing

[sterile crane]

it need to be curvy and nice

[opaque steppe]

Ive been in the market for a wasp waisted brig, do you know anyone who makes a good reproduction?

[ancient pivot]

Dutch Armour make the nicest imo

[opaque steppe]

do they have a presence off facebook? that's pretty much exactly what I'm going for

[ancient pivot]

Not sure as I don't really use Facebook but they're dutch_armour on Instagram

[royal wave]

Could anybody send some late italian references for full plate?

[terse bronze]

St. Elizabeth’s Cathedral's altar, dated to 1473–1477

[turbid shadow]

is this a brig? or leather armor (very kino altarpiece bth)

[terse bronze]

All'antica brother

but does look like leather / cover absolutely not a brig

[turbid shadow]

my brain completetly forgot about that shit so mb

yeah that's pretty neat

very nice nonetheless

[grizzled hearth]

I remembering seeing in a manuscript that was depicting recent history soldiers or knights wearing that style of shoulder defense with the weird pteruges with the rest of the armor being real not all antica so i wonder given how common they are depicted in different regions and over many decades if they actually existed

You can see it here along with contemporary armor in a contemporary event

[analog thistle]

Fighting with a Messer and what is described as a "Hungarian shield" in the mid-15th-century German commentary (Gladiatoria fechtbuch fol. 55r)

A shield mixed with a sharpened point on the tip. mid 15th. Defence and offence.

[lone osprey]

my personal guess for a little while has been that at least some of the 15th century all'antica armours depicted maybe existed physically for non-military purposes of e.g. passion plays. at the very least we know they re-purposed the image (if not modeled from life on actually re-purposed sets) of kastenbrust for similar purposes

havent read christopher retsch's chapters on them (which all of these images are from) so far but need to

[vocal vale]

definitely keep us posted

i’m intrigued

[lone osprey]

here's one good example he gives

full book can be downloaded free here:

https://fis.uni-bamberg.de/entities/publication/b967b60c-8748-4d83-abcb-f759ef3e4495

[next orchid]

these are still artistic shorthands

plus french art is a little more tame when compared to flemish

[next orchid]

you might be right, but these are still artistic devices. for example, we know parade armor in the antique style was worn in the 16th century, but that doesnt mean the italian artists depicting everyone, or every other person, or even just one individual, in antique armor were attempting to portray parade armor

really, it should be said the armors were being produced after the art, and not the art after the armors

[lone osprey]

I agree with you that in the first place, medieval all'antica had to have originated from images and not costume armours. but here is what I also mean: I think that costume armours possibly used e.g. in festivities like for big weddings (like above), for passion plays, or possibly for funerary purposes (like above with gattamelata's effigy), that were themselves undoubtedly inspired by/based on contemporaneous art, may well have inspired yet other artists who may have used studies from life as models for their designs and vice versa (maybe their relationship was reciprocal)

e.g. the costume armour that appears in the echafaud or echaufaudage whatever its called, this one of Thecuites dropping a stone on Abimelech, that was produced for the entry of Joanna of Castile into Brussels in 1496, may have been inspired by similar depictions of armour that appear, purely for example, in the art of the 'Ghent associates' / the Master of Mary of Burgundy

so part of my guess - because this is purely circumstantial guessing based on the increasing use of studies from life in art during this period - is that perhaps in some cases, such as flemish paintings that depict extremely detailed all'antica/leather armours (and german art depicting comparably detailed all'antica alongside totally contemporaneous armour), these may have had corresponding costumes. which Retsch also suggests and so I agree with him on that

[lone osprey]

I know its bad to speculate on circumstantial evidence and I totally concede that its a weaker stance to take, but its just too intuitively wrong to me to rule out the possibility of being based on life with how detailed some of the flemish and german depictions are (even though obviously skilled artists can easily make a complete fantasy look real), but also especially because they appear alongside more or less contemporaneous armour in many paintings of the passion and crucifixion

[terse bronze]

I would agree, but I still think some elements could have been used in a martial context

Also don't forget the tourney book of king Rene, featuring leather spaulders and arms defense very much reminiscent of that heroic style

Also what's the second source from?

[lone osprey]

true I completely forgot about Rene's BnF tourney book. for sure the use of 'cuir bouilli' with rivets is evident (although I've never looked into it for precisely when/what context apart from Rene). which is part of what makes me (just personally) more convinced that there is some degree of reality to at least parts of the really detailed all'antica stuff - since it also often integrates other 'old fashioned' stuff like chains to hang swords from, and sometimes the triangular laminated groin-guards.

also the woodcut is: Der „ridder,“ Anonym: Totentanz (Des dodes dantz). Lübeck (Mohnkopfdrucker (Hans van Ghetelen)) 1489 (= GW M47262); Linköping, Stiftsbiblioteket, Inkunabel 48, fol. 14v.

but in general the majority of very schematic, undetailed illustrations I agree are just artist shorthand

[terse bronze]

Thank you my buddy pal

the horseman whole getup is pretty fucking awesome aesthetically

really like it

[lone osprey]

I like those fringes on his shoulders
fringes slap

[terse bronze]

resurrection scene but still note the maheutre

[lone osprey]

is maheutre the shoulder?

[terse bronze]

bulbous (like french maheutre typically are) with little short "sleeves/fringes"

[terse bronze]

ya

[terse bronze]

Again what's the source plz?

more of those fringes

[lone osprey]

oh sweet Ive only come across it with maximilian calling the puffy pourpoint shoulders 'hohen achsel' literally high shoudlers lol so that's cool to learn

[lone osprey]

saw @turbid shadow post this in the dell' arte della guerra server

[terse bronze]

Ohhh fuck yes I forgot about it

those germanic/flemish jacks are pretty cool I really like them

[terse bronze]

I mean fair lol, just saying maheutre cuz that's what they're caled in french and i'm french so i'm more familiar with the term lol

[lone osprey]

do you know what the context is? official promo art?

[terse bronze]

Believe so

wait a moment

you're german right?

or at least german speaking?

[terse bronze]

https://youtu.be/mSGvbW8Fsug

[lone osprey]

damn I see it now 7:37 thats awesome

[lone osprey]

just german-reading and german-hearing
some incoherent stuttering too

[terse bronze]

ah ok lol

[steep yoke]

huh

How tf

Oh wait nvm I dont think thats part of the curiass

[grizzled hearth]

What are good sources to learn about the clothing from this period?

I'd like to see extant clothing if it exists

Eventually I want to find authentic patterns to try and make some myself

[night kindle]

I have a question if you don’t mind, where do you find these collages of images in this time period? I’ve been desperately searching around Pinterest and Google but it’s rare to find a whole collection of arms and armor from the same event/museum

[terse bronze]

facebook groups for these

[night kindle]

Okay. Thanks man!! I appreciate it. :D

[terse bronze]

if you look for "Feldlager Brandenburg" you should find stuf from this event

[silver heart]

with that first lad; is that a brig or a covered upper half of a cuirass? i’d imagine the latter.

[terse bronze]

@silver heart

(here it's a brig)

[silver heart]

very interesting. i like the little petal besagews.

[terse bronze]

these are a pretty popular design tbh

[terse bronze]

https://warfare.ueuo.com/15/St-George_by_Pedro_Nisart-soldiers.htm

[opaque steppe]

looks like a plackart attached to a brig

[terse bronze]

It's one interpretation of the things you see in french/burgundian manuscripts, we don't really know what they'r supposed to be, so they could be covered cuirasses or brigandines with placards attached, or even both

Here the smith chose the interpretation of it being a brigandine with a placard

I'm more inclined to think that what's shown in the manuscripts is majoritarly covered breastplates because it just makes more sense and there's precedents of this being done in france before and of similar things being done abroad, notably in italy

[grizzled hearth]

In halfsword sometimes veterans and or soldiers spawn with a plackart but no upper breastplate. Is that just because the equipment is randomized or was it done historically. To me it seems you wouldnt want one without the other

[vivid solar]

It's intentional, but not sure how accurate it is

[quaint shore]

wouldn't see why you couldn't wear a plackart independently

[terse bronze]

well you need somewhere to attach it to

[fast pagoda]

These are I believe covered breastplates but they are worn so only plackart shows. Most things of “only plackart” I see out there are cloth-covered breastplates with plackart being worn over, including the brigandine examples, except one notable painting

And this is that painting

But it is the only example I know and it is an odd one

[grizzled hearth]

i dont mean that it isnt possible to wear in that configuration but that if you had a plackart you likely had the full cuirass and would wear the whole thing otherwise you are leaving the upper part of your torso exposed

[quaint shore]

true

idk somee people were broke enough

[grizzled hearth]

i know it italy sometimes the cuirass was removed to lighten the harness but i dont see why just the breastplate

and for a soldier it seems odd to have just a plackart and no breastplate because i imagine they are made together to fit each other even for armor that isnt fitted to a specific individual

[quaint shore]

shrug

[grizzled hearth]

Similarly sometimes in the game you see an otherwise full arm harness but no shoulder defenses. Looking around i saw this miniature showing exactly that

You can see the rerebrace on his right arm but not his left which seems weird given that that's the side that is always more armored if there is any asymmetry

[lone osprey]

I like that illustration

Hair popping out of the busted helmet

[grizzled hearth]

I agree

[vivid solar]

Maybe the guy figured he had a shield already

[finite ore]

hi chat

[opaque steppe]

Thatd be my thought, armoring the more vulnerable weapon arm since the shield already well covers that side

[vocal vale]

as far as i can tell this guy is meant to have been wounded and his armor have been pried from him

he’s not intentionally uncovered there

considering the boss of his shield is cleft and his helmet as well

[vocal vale]

there are a few historical examples of this just to lighten the harness and lessen joint inhibitions

iberian men at arms had a habit of it afaik

[vocal vale]

it’s debated

i am of the opinion that in 99% of cases the breastplate is just hidden

same with the brigandine with plackart stuff

as someone brought up once here the only practical reason i could see for it is buying munitions cuirasses and dividing them in two to cover more men overall but without written evidence of that or anything other than modern sensibilities behind it i’m not confident in it

[next orchid]

theres limited evidence for it, particularly in the burgundian ordinances. however, we dont really know how the word is being used. its not a far stretch of the imagination that it's used to describe a simple breast (and i think in the 73 ordinance it uses "glacon", which probably is just referring to a simple breast).

it might also be a simple way to keep the limbs and shoulders free (and belly wounds were pretty much 100% chance of death prior to modern medicine, not exaggerating. upper torso is also protected by the ribcage)

Les picquenaires hauront jaquette de haubergerie à manches et placart...

"The pikemen shall have a maille jacket with sleeves and a plackart..."

[next orchid]

its fantasy art but also the left arm is protected by the shield

and pauldrons are restrictive

[next orchid]

imo these are supposed to be jacks. flemish jacks (this looks like flemish art) seem to have often had visible quilting

i understand the skepticism though

[grizzled hearth]

Now that you mention it this should have been more obvious to me lol. I was too busy looking at the armor to take clues from what is actually happening

[grizzled hearth]

What I'm referring to here is Italians still wearing full mail shirts underneath their plates giving them the option to remove the pauldrons or even the cuirass

And still be reasonably protected

[fast pagoda]

Yes it is flemish

Chroniques de Hainaut depicting a battle between caesar and the nervii

That is all I could gather from the text (not knowing middle or modern French), but since it is a historical passage details about the gear and what is being depicted exactly won’t be gained from the text itself, so we’re left only with the illustration

[chrome rover]

^ ❌

[clever lintel]

Need more Rabbits and Snails

[solar cargo]

Storie di san Michele Arcangelo (dettaglio), Melozzo da Forlì e Antoniazzo Romano, 1464-1468. Cappella del cardinal Bessarione (Basilica dei Santi Apostoli), Roma

[fast pagoda]

What

[lone osprey]

Probably was a spammer

[next orchid]

wow, english longbowman

[solar cargo]

more like an italian recurvebowman lol

[chrome rover]

there was a guy who sent 4 random links

that seemed suspicious

[white fulcrum]

nah, looks pretty English to me. you can tell because he has a relatively long bow (joke)

[grizzled hearth]

The hat looks very Italian. I like to think he is an Englishman dressed in the Italian fashion

[gentle hill]

maybe a imported bow, how common was that

[terse bronze]

it's a joke

[gentle hill]

o

[lone osprey]

seriously though did recurve bows get that huge unstrung? I know nothing about bows

[fleet junco]

rocks were thrown

[lone osprey]

that reminds me a fall-on-your-sword option would be cool to me as a surrender option
probably too much of an idea guy thing but its iconic

[terse bronze]

tragic day in a "no gorget zone"

[lone osprey]

always wear protection

[lone osprey]

laminate groin guard

[vagrant ridge]

need a good represetation for a 15th-16th century castle

preferably ones on an elevated ground

[lone osprey]

https://les-tres-riches-heures.chateaudechantilly.fr/
https://cdn.essentiels.bnf.fr/media/images/cache/cache/rc/MwGefHlt/uploads/media/image/20240131115811000000_f093_rec.jpg

[vagrant ridge]

nice

[fast niche]

some weird scam thing

stupid scam gambling website ad bot

[gentle hill]

Is it a real trope?

[lone osprey]

probably not for the middle ages actually I think they only did it in ancient times so nevermind lol

[mighty needle]

scambling

the dastardly rambling scambler

the perambulatory scamper

the jerbish mcgigger grackler

[gentle hill]

so cosmetics like surcoats and orles and other ways people that time showed their affiliation are garunteed ?

[fast niche]

bro justt came out g shoert

[vocal vale]

yeah

[white fulcrum]

it’s gonna be so peak

surcoats, scheckes, orles, tabards hopefully 🤞, giorneas

[gentle hill]

scheckes would definitely work the best

[gentle hill]

?

[gentle hill]

not a period accurate example but besegews with patterns i think could fit

[vivid solar]

grahammm

[grizzled hearth]

I hope we get nice long 15th century hair in the game

Even with bald willie being so iconic

[vivid solar]

I wanna give Willie a haircut :)

[weak halo]

Nuh-uh, you get Lord Farquaad hair

[grizzled hearth]

That's exactly what I mean

Although his is more 1500 than 1450-70

[weak halo]

Ahh, I thought you meant like those HEMA guys that keep really long impractical hair for no reason

[grizzled hearth]

Nah I mean historically authentic hair

[weak halo]

Then it always peeks through the back of their armor and looks silly

[grizzled hearth]

I agree

It's not something you see in art from the period

Of course that's not what hema people are trying to do

[silver grotto]

I can't wait for hair, especially if it's regional-specific

[grizzled hearth]

Exactly

Completely embracing the aesthetic of a period always gives good results

[weak halo]

Holy shit

It's him

[grizzled hearth]

Very early 16th century is the Farquaad era

[weak halo]

He looks like Willie

[grizzled hearth]

Willie after taking a major hit to the nose

[weak halo]

This guy has a cool scar

Nice ring gloves too

[lone osprey]

longer hair could be pretty fashionable in the HRE in the last third of the 15th century

see Dürer, Maximilian, Hungarian/Bohemian royalty then too

[grizzled hearth]

Absolutely I've just not seen it sticking out from under a helmet in artwork

I really want to see hair like that in the game

[lone osprey]

oh for sure i see

[grizzled hearth]

At least not tied

[weak halo]

-# looks like crap tho let's be real 😐

[lone osprey]

no idea what youre talking about lol

its just a fashion

youre entitled to your opinion though

[weak halo]

I have a feeling that a lot of these guys keep their hair because it won't grow back once they cut it

[gentle hill]

would be pretty dapper

[lone osprey]

eh pretty sure it was just a fashion trend that came and went https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/Anonymous_-_Ladislaus_the_Postumous.jpg

[gentle hill]

like imagine a guy in game with the shiniest most polished armor and long flowing hair

[weak halo]

In nowadays HEMA I mean

[gentle hill]

o

[weak halo]

That's what I'm going on about

[gentle hill]

sori

[lone osprey]

oooh well thats fair - yeah I'm not into it today personally

[grizzled hearth]

I think sticking to recreating what was fashionable in any period regardless of if it applies to our modern and personal aesthetic sensibilities or not always ends up looking way cooler in the end than picking and choosing what we like which invariably compounds into something historically inauthentic

[lone osprey]

like seeing long hair + beards in a HEMA context is like a sin cause they certainly never did that lol (at least not consistely - im sure there are exceptions)

for this period

[terse bronze]

That's not early 15thc

[grizzled hearth]

I meant 16th

My mistake

[weak halo]

I'm really not a fan of the long hair + beard combo

[terse bronze]

Ah ok

[weak halo]

Looks unclean

[lone osprey]

agreed with that

[silver grotto]

I don't know is is exactly solid enough evidence, but here you can see a lad with hair poking under a war hat

[terse bronze]

I'm having a brainfart rn what's that one german artist that made the horseman and death piece again

[weak halo]

He's not wearing a fully enclosed plate armor kit

[terse bronze]

I forgot his name for some reason

[weak halo]

The reenactors I'm ranting about are

[grizzled hearth]

Duerer

[terse bronze]

Durer thanks

[lone osprey]

oh yeah he did sport a beard and long hair

but then again hes a painter

[terse bronze]

Isn't there a self portrait of durer with a beard and long hair

[lone osprey]

true true

[weak halo]

Like some dude is going to wear a really cool armor and you'll just see a long ponytail coming out from under the back of the aventail

[lone osprey]

he may have been trying to intellectualize himself

[weak halo]

Looks terrible

[terse bronze]

Seem to be the exception tho

[lone osprey]

I don't think I've seen warriors in that fashion

[terse bronze]

Also iicr the beard really came back into fashion by the early 16thc notably with François 1er

[grizzled hearth]

I meant like someone wearing a sallet and bevor and having a ponytail sticking out the back

[lone osprey]

true

[grizzled hearth]

Didn't someone post pics of guys wearing some kind of hair net in this chat a while ago

[weak halo]

Cool mustache > beard

[terse bronze]

Yeah

[grizzled hearth]

From period art

[silver grotto]

Is this tuff?

[terse bronze]

As well as bonnets

[gentle hill]

tuffest

[weak halo]

Really cool effigy

From around 1450 according to Pinterest

[terse bronze]

Hello John somethingford, Esquire

[weak halo]

Look at them mustaches

[gentle hill]

really hope we get more kinds of armets

[terse bronze]

I think right one is too late

[quaint shore]

last one is 16th century design im pretty sure

[gentle hill]

o

[grizzled hearth]

Was thinking the same

[quaint shore]

K

[terse bronze]

Balls privilege revoked

[quaint shore]

though i agree we need wrapper-less armets

[weak halo]

Have at ye

[lone osprey]

tbh there are dudes with at least neck/shoulder length hair and beards i shouldn't talk out my ass. but I don think Ive seen knights with the really long hair like in the HRE + a beard.

[gentle hill]

those are beautiful fringes

[gentle hill]

.

[silver grotto]

I think it would be cool if that one boss without a helmet got upgraded to something like this

[lone osprey]

yeah I believe it's referred to by fashion historians as 'dagging'

[silver grotto]

Assuming the bosses stayed

[grizzled hearth]

There is German art of men in armor with beards dating to the middle of the 15th century but it is biblical art so it's hard to say if it was really in fashion

[gentle hill]

im hoping the extra layer of coats is ready by EA

love them

[silver grotto]

Same here

[gentle hill]

they are, abyss will just become more and more rouge lite, so that means even more bosses probably

[terse bronze]

Rouge lite?

[gentle hill]

game with permadeath and random map generation

so the abyss

[terse bronze]

Rogue

Oka

[gentle hill]

examples are TBOI, uuuh risk of rain i think

[terse bronze]

Yeah rogue lol

I really read it rouge at first I had no idea what you were talking about lol

[gentle hill]

oh i DID spell it wrong

sorry

https://tenor.com/view/ralph-wiggum-simpsons-thats-unpossible-fail-english-gif-12425064

[terse bronze]

Got confused for a sec though you were talking about something being red

[weak halo]

Yoink

Have these in exchange

Whoops included a bascinet by accident

[twilit prairie]

I hope they add hounskulls honestly

[silver grotto]

https://tenor.com/view/half-sword-gif-3664374138885563044

[weak halo]

Nah, out of period

[gentle hill]

same here

[twilit prairie]

I thought those types of bascinets were used until the early 1500s

[gentle hill]

i hope other centuries are not outu of the picture for the devs though

[weak halo]

It would be like going into WW1 with flintlock weapons

[twilit prairie]

not really

[grizzled hearth]

Even some of the helmets here wouldn't fit

[weak halo]

This however

[grizzled hearth]

Really I think less is more

[twilit prairie]

hounskulls were still used in the early 15th century I'm pretty sure

[grizzled hearth]

Stick to what we know 100% fits

[weak halo]

This would still be around

[gentle hill]

this is beautiful

[silver grotto]

I mean technically there were still some great bascinets with hounskull-adjacent visors

[gentle hill]

yoink

[weak halo]

Game is mid-late 15th

They'd be wearing grandpapy Willie's armor

[grizzled hearth]

You sometimes see visored bascinets being used by common soldiers later in the 15th century

I have heard of descriptions of them being used like that even in the early 16th century if I recall

But even then

[gentle hill]

random but i hope they do more axe heads

[weak halo]

For jousts yeah

[grizzled hearth]

No I mean dated bascinets not newly made great bascinets for foot combat

[gentle hill]

what weapon is this

[grizzled hearth]

Like late 14th/early 15th

[weak halo]

Some sort of partisan?

[weak halo]

I strongly doubt it

At this point they'd grab it and recycle it

[twilit prairie]

pretty sure that's a partisan

[grizzled hearth]

If a formerly knightly helmet ended up in the hands of a common soldier I imagine he would still use it

[twilit prairie]

that sounds viable

[grizzled hearth]

This is conjecture and the artist may have included them to make the people appear like from an older time

[twilit prairie]

pretty sure some people did use very out-of-date weapons and armour in war

[weak halo]

That's a full kit, not just a helmet

I think it's a depiction of older gear in period art

[grizzled hearth]

This one and another I think is what I am referring to

[weak halo]

That's from a Bible iirc

[grizzled hearth]

from 1470

[silver grotto]

This is unrelated to the peasant with grandpa's old helmet

[gentle hill]

another very possible addition

[silver grotto]

This is a weird little outlier

I'm fairly sure it's not a depiction based on reality, but who knows

[grizzled hearth]

Stuff like this that fits the time period would be really cool

The devs know what they are doing

[gentle hill]

kasten brust with a cape-ish thing

1440

[silver grotto]

Either way, it's too niche for the game

[gentle hill]

yeah, it only brings even more to how they claim "deep customization" on the steam page

[grizzled hearth]

Agreed

Just a neat topic of discussion

[gentle hill]

this is something alright

[silver grotto]

Dumbo

[gentle hill]

big discs, and some sort of cloak

[silver grotto]

It'd be neat if there was a visored sallet with rondels on it's sides

In the game

[lone osprey]

little bit of hair poking out from this st george
Christus als "Logos" met Raas van Haamstede en zijn familie, ca. 1450-1460

[gentle hill]

really like those types of couters

especially the blackened with the red coat

[grizzled hearth]

I love the dark blued metal

[gentle hill]

hope when EA comes you can darken your armor

[weak halo]

Drip?

[grizzled hearth]

The game already has blued armor so I think for sure they will

[gentle hill]

found another one

is this out of period

[silver grotto]

Those are close helmets

I could've sworn I had more pictures of sallets with rondels, but this is about all I've got

I ❤️ coat armour

[weak halo]

Weird things I found

[gentle hill]

do you think that kind of helmet in the first image can be in half sword?

[weak halo]

Gilded boy

And finally, straight up porn

[gentle hill]

peak

man just looking at these examples makes me realize how hard 3d modelling must be

[weak halo]

Nah

[gentle hill]

i love frank and ivan

[weak halo]

It takes time but with practice you can do anything

[gentle hill]

thats a good mindset

[grizzled hearth]

Besides how beautiful this tapestry is, I love all the war hats in this image

[weak halo]

Here are some images of a comm I made for someone

[silver grotto]

I'm especially fond of all the decorated rivets

[gentle hill]

sick man

[weak halo]

I'm trying to find more images but they're pretty far in time

[gentle hill]

i could pick it up one day

focused on traditional and digital art plus i got a new art tablet coming next monday

[weak halo]

What I do is take a cube and then subdivide and shape the wireframe little by little until I have something I'm happy with

[grizzled hearth]

Awesome

[weak halo]

I miss being on PC 😞

I haven't worked in my projects in so long

[grizzled hearth]

Sexy

[weak halo]

I lost a lot of it because of a windows wipe that wasn't even necessary

Turns out 800$+ later, my PC problem isn't a PC problem, but an electrical wiring problem in my room

I bought a new motherboard, power supply, RAM, etc

[grizzled hearth]

That sucks

[gentle hill]

Love skyrim, and i would pay for any armor mod like that

[runic holly]

what in the great heavens

[torpid lance]

WHAT GAME IS THIS??? I NEED IT

[fast pagoda]

Skyrim

[fleet junco]

bertarche or whatever its called

[terse bronze]

Bretache / nasal guard

Too early for the game

[fleet junco]

we have a barbute

[terse bronze]

That is not the same thing

[fleet junco]

to be or not to be

[terse bronze]

Toby or not toby

[runic holly]

i thought same

but maybe could be cool for a boss

[fleet junco]

maybe the remains of henry will rise out of bohemia and fight willie

[terse bronze]

NO

[vocal vale]

why is the boss a time traveler

[runic holly]

That applies from present to future

Not from past to present

[vocal vale]

it’s not logical for him to be wearing a helmet from 80 years before the game takes place

[runic holly]

Ok

-_-

[gentle hill]

Rich guy

ca. 1464-1466 - 'wings of the 'Lyversberg Passion" (Meister der Lyversberg-Passion), Cologne, Kartäuserkirche, Cologne, Wallraf-Richartz-Museum,
Cologne, Germany

i will be surcoatposting / jupon posting because i just love the thought of them being ingame

[fleet junco]

brigandine with the door hinges

[white fulcrum]

knock knock!

[umbral ingot]

come in

[vocal vale]

bros immune to vampire attacks

they cannot breach his brigandine without his permission

[umbral ingot]

😭

[void stream]

that would be a violation

[umbral ingot]

the vampire has to show clear paper that he can legally enter

[sterile crane]

"Wheres your warrant to enter my body?"

[torpid lance]

is this a mod or apart of the game

and what mod?

[white fulcrum]

mod lol

Skyrim could never

[torpid lance]

what one T-T

[white fulcrum]

no clue!

:D

[torpid lance]

https://tenor.com/view/doakes-bar-gif-4298875606784040546

[torpid lance]

i want it so bad

[weak halo]

Mod, made it all by myself

Never published it

[torpid lance]

dude hell yeah

you make the models?

[weak halo]

Ye

[strange cargo]

https://tenor.com/view/i'm-afraid-arthur-morgan-red-dead-redemption-2-arthur-morgan-i'm-afraid-popsdops-gif-850640573973312845

[humble pagoda]

Should there be armor or weapons from a few years before 1450, but they would be rusty, dulled and not as protective.

[old radish]

that does sound kinda cool but probably not very realistic

[terse bronze]

thing is, with that type of reasoning, where does it stop ?

devs already set the minimum date to be 1450, if you propose something from 1440 what stop you from proposing something even older? what's the limit?

cuz if they do add a 1440 thing, then you would think that 1440 is the minimum, so then there'll be people pushing it again "oh but let's add something from the 1430 it's nto that far!" and so on

I support the devs in their 1450-1470 choice

Sometimes you do have to be firm and stoic on what you want

(ofc if you find somethign cool from 1449 honestly yeah why not i'd be more than happy to have it but we shouldnt push it to much in one direction or another)

[humble pagoda]

Atleast some form of bad condition items would be cool, yes?

[terse bronze]

not really

I mean there's "item" and "item"

Something like a billhook from a bit earlier yeah sure

but it shouldnt be like a rusty hounskull bascinet for instance

gotta stay coherent with the period AND the reality of medieval equipement

[vocal vale]

the bad condition in game is the extent of and maybe even a bit further than realistic

the worst conditioned stuff is a little too far gone imo but the middle tiers are realistically imperfect

but they’re also “current”, not outdated, because that doesn’t really matter as to if you take care of it or not

[gentle hill]

kinda is nvm

Heres this thoufh

[quaint shore]

the ponderer

[fleet junco]

sleeping soldier guarding jesus

[quaint shore]

can't imagine how awful it'd be to wake up after sleeping in full plate

[fleet junco]

cold sweat

[terse bronze]

you ever take naps in your sarcophagus ?

I thought everyone took naps in their sarcophagus at home

[quaint shore]

nah, im a weak level vampire

cant afford sarcophagi anymore

shits fucked.

[terse bronze]

Bruuuuuuhhh only in evil Ohio 💀 ⚰️ 🩸

[fleet junco]

something happened to kevlar, hed never say this

[terse bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/inefablejuly-dracula-cat-and-my-scared-ass-cat-gif-2783752144438560772

[quaint shore]

bit by a vampire

[void stream]

Quadro di Sant'Andrea by Nicola di Ulisse da Siena, 1463 ca.

[gentle hill]

all of these are in wip i think but i really love italian helmets

[bright token]

Do their armour counted as German style? Photos from Kurfürstlich Sächsische Kriegsknechte 1475, great reenactment group

[gentle hill]

Its separate. But they were known for expansive trade of arms and armor at the time

Is it decided that great bascinets are coming or nah?

[sterile crane]

Really like these styles with a more downwards sweeping brim

Guys what is the name of this style of kettle hat?

[chrome rover]

Not sure about a specific name for that variant of kettle, but i know kettle hats are often called 'War Hats', that might get you to find what youre looking for.

[simple fable]

Dude looks like he’s been thru some tuff times, absolutely cooked

[terse bronze]

Looking cabasset / capacete can lead results (it just mean helmet in Spanish but wtver)

[sterile crane]

Oh yeah they look kinda similar, i guess something in the style of what they call 'burgundian' war hat, but on non swirly versions

That one with the spiral, but smooth

[terse bronze]

Something of this style, yeah, it's still commonly called a capacete/cabasset (not the true real name fuck it like that's just how people remember it)

popular in flanders, france, spain ect

[sterile crane]

Ohhhh yes it looks very nice, specially with bevor

[terse bronze]

Cod. 2617, Boccaccio: Theseide

[sterile crane]

How do i find these paintings

What are the resources to go after that kind of stuff

[terse bronze]

went on ÖNB for these

[terse bronze]

#1359306763832266992 message

[humble pagoda]

You can see the fear in his eyes 😟

[silver grotto]

Is the guy on the left Arne Koets?

[bright token]

I'm not sure, sorry.

[lone osprey]

I assume if they are going for german appearance its all'tedesca because the lance rest studs are italian style

Also placarts attached by belt and not rivet

[bright token]

Ooo that's neat

I wasn't sure are they wearing alla tedesca or the one I saw called 'fluted western european style' on an armour book

[lone osprey]

the first guys seems to be alla tedesca because the sallet + bevor, cusping on his pauldron reinforce, pointed gauntlet, and fluting - but with those more typically italian mechanisms on the cuirass - seem to point in that direction to me.

but like 'western european' = you could say from italy to britain, and it's fluted, so I dunno names and categories arent perfect lol theres so much cross fertilization

[lone osprey]

Eisenhut in German

[next orchid]

iron hat in english

[oblique oriole]

do yall see the vision

i mean exept for the hair

[lone topaz]

not even remotely

[opaque steppe]

You are alone on this one chief

[tropic elm]

I see the vision twin🤙

[gentle hill]

that's heart over death

[sterile crane]

Nah, commoner boss is a bodyguard

[lone osprey]

iron this hat

[chrome rover]

Farmers flail (used to whack the good stuff out of wheat)

[oblique oriole]

im not einstein what did you mean by this

[gentle hill]

the half sword youtuber

[sterile crane]

This is interesting

[weak halo]

Sexy

[void stream]

very

[steep yoke]

Those are so rad

[sterile crane]

I think theres one of those in the game right? It has a very dark color

[sullen charm]

They the same picture

[lone osprey]

anyone remember what this is based on (art preferably)
swear ive seen it but cant remember it

[vivid solar]

@light dove

[verbal bramble]

What style of armor is this? If any?

[gentle hill]

German

[lone osprey]

pointed couter, fluting, cusping, rosette besagew, sallet and bevor, I'd say pretty german

[gentle hill]

couldnt have said it better myself

thank u

[verbal bramble]

Huh... The elbow articulation looks pretty atypical compared to most german gothic armor I've seen, usually they lack lames and are instead tied to the arming doublet (or riveted to leather in one weird example, and it might be just for display purposes)... How come this one have an articulated elbow with lames?

[lone osprey]

well do you mean what style is it or where might it have been made?

this one in edinburgh appears full integrated and is attributed to germany

[verbal bramble]

The style, I mean the style-

Ah

[lone osprey]

Italians may have been more likely to have made it because there are more surviving specimens of arm protection from there where its integrated and articulated

but in that painting its got features pretty typical of german armor at the time

even if its export

[verbal bramble]

So it is following gothic "fashion", but made in Italy for the HRE market? Kind of like "Alla Tedesca" armor?

Or am I misunderstanding something

[lone osprey]

I'd be reluctant to say definitively thats an alla tedesda export armour in that painting just cause it has an integrated arm guard but sure its possible

definitely has german style characteristics

[verbal bramble]

No lames seem to connect the elbow piece with the rest of the harness, but I am curious about this one: Which number of the Matthias Goll archives is this piece?

[verbal bramble]

I think I understand

The fluting style and cusping on the poleyn wing is indeed quite german, but the gauntlets and elbow piece threw me off

[lone osprey]

you know what i fully concede that arm aint german but i had like so much cognitive dissonance from knowing they had integrated arm guards that werent always laced up - but yeah like you say dont have articulating lames - that and also this composed bashford dean thingy being part of a composed 'gothic' armour. but yeah I reckon youre right.

the Goll references: ref_arm_581 - ref_arm_588 also I had in my head - thats what that original photo was from. but yeah I reckon youre on the money

[verbal bramble]

Those actually fascinate me! To the point that, if I am ever able to get the stuff I need for armoring (which I want to do for other reasons), I am planning to see if it was just for display purposes or actually could work. 581 was, in fact, one of the inspirations I have for my dream armor, as I don't like lacing on the arm harness (I haven't tested it, but I have a feeling it would be vulnerable to being cut, which would cause problems with movement, and maybe even drop the elbow piece if it didn't had a strap... I know this is very unlikely, but it is still something that concerns me)

Maybe adding a sliding slot for the rivet that connects the leather to the varmbrace, like in some early 15th Century italian arm harnesses, add some mobility?

[hasty parrot]

Y’all should add half sword into Mac book

[modern bridge]

Are there any historical depictions of the 15th Century Rugger Knife? I can't seem to find any...

[silver grotto]

https://www.instagram.com/p/CxU1vA-tIkU/?igsh=bmljeGY2M3BkZG4z

geschichtsfenster

Feldlager bei der Ruine Brandenburg. Gemeinsam mit den Kurfürstlich Sächsischen Kriegsknechten und Zornhau, sowie Darstellern aus Polen, Tschechien, Italien, Frankreich, Belgien, den Niederlanden, den USA, Australien und jeder Menge anderer Nationen haben wir drei Tage lang Burgen erstürmt, haben uns durch Wald und Flur gekämpft, haben gelit...

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[lone osprey]

that would be awesome to see if you do. that edinburgh collection has others like that too they are pretty interesting. that would actually be cool to see someone cut through laced pieces if that is possible even if its a vulnerability but yeah like you say probably unlikely cause its probably really hard when theyre all done up

[lone osprey]

interesting there is this effigy with what otherwise looks like a purely german harness with the italian style arm guard. its that kind of thing that does make me wonder the earliest time at which german armourers started integrating that technology. these kolbenturnier arm guards for maximilian are dated from the 1480 or 90s from the helmschmid workshop

[verbal bramble]

Presumably, by none other than Lorenz Helmschmied himself?

[lone osprey]

attributed but no markings or documents to confirm

[verbal bramble]

Unlikely, but I wouldn't rule it out: Most materials that I know of and existed by the 15th Century, that could be tied and untied, were able to be cut. It would be very unlikely, considering all the movement the wearer of the harness would be doing with the arms, and the armorers at the time knew what they were doing, but sheer luck is funny like that.

[verbal bramble]

Hmm... The roping on the harness is very characteristic of him, I saw it in works we know are his

[verbal bramble]

Also, a damn shame the sculpture is so damaged, if only it was more complete we could gather more info on it

The fluting and artistic choices seem to be gothic/german indeed, but I am not exactly sure what is going on with the arms, they are too damaged

[lone osprey]

yeah thats true
Retsch has other interesting sculptures included in his book that seem to corroborate that feature on german harnesses at least
and it does appear this artist was conscious of other forms of arm protection e.g. second pic

those are c.1482

[verbal bramble]

This one is much cleaner and more complete, indeed, and seems accurate enough to german tastes (with the only exception being the elbow piece and the pauldron reinforcement, those seem... Very italian-like in shape? If that makes sense?)

I also find the right sculpture quite neat, I made a similar fluting style on the cuirass I am drawing as part of my dream harness:

My design is a lot more dripped out on some aspects (the central cusp/spike on the plackart), but I find it to be more or less similar in fluting style