references♥_1450-1470

[turbid shadow]

should respond tbf, he’s quite active there

[lost zealot]

lets just hope so... also do you know the recent news about japan double headed spear ?

[turbid shadow]

Been out of the loop so can’t really tell

[lost zealot]

that crappy weapon's getting nerfed with the sickle

also the japanese shield too

thank god

[humble pagoda]

I LOVE this armet; I think it would fit beautifully ingame.

[lone osprey]

San romano lookin

[lost zealot]

yep, he did respond

fire 🔥

[fleet junco]

confirmed release

[bright token]

https://www.instagram.com/p/DKaOArptEJe/?igsh=aHU4cWhvamVidGht

some_sewing_nerd

Finally. After 5 1/2 long years the harness from @piotrplatener is here.
This was a huge checkmark on my bucketlist. For the longest time the lack of representable armour did hold me off of many opportunities. It looks fantastic and the details on it are breathtaking!
Unfortunately, this was not the solution to my problems. Every single piece o...

Likes

355

Instagram

Good stuff

Does it fit within game time frame?

[turbid shadow]

Yes

[turbid shadow]

Good shit!

[tranquil trout]

bloody basterds

[night kindle]

RAHHHHH

I see it. Absolutely gorgeous 🫶🏻🫶🏻

[bleak rivet]

Do you know if they are going to add "big" broadswords/large swords? I would love to see that

[vocal vale]

broadswords do not fit the time period

greatswords are already in the game

[bleak rivet]

oh okay, thanks for answering, appreciate it

[silver heart]

luh calm fit, nun too extravagant

[golden widget]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GXTE8crvHoU

[terse sorrel]

What are these dastardly contraptions?

[terse bronze]

grenades i think

[fleet junco]

evil fuzzy things

[lucid briar]

there is a 1584 german book called Feuer Buech I found an illustration from a manuscript that look alot like the one illustrated here

https://bibliophilly.library.upenn.edu/viewer.php?id=Oversize Ms. Codex 109#page/322/mode/2up <--- give it a read its fun to see these contraptions!

[solar cargo]

is it alright to post art and extant examples of things that aren't arms and armor related, mainly fashion from the 1450s - 70s?

[vocal vale]

yes !!!!!!!! please do

[solar cargo]

great!! thanks!

[lost zealot]

fashion

[solar cargo]

kitty

Follower of Rogier van der Weyden - Louis, Duke of Savoy, circa 1465

surviving example of a giornea from the 15th century

[solar cargo]

detail from Albi. Médiathèque Pierre-Amalric, RES MS ROCH 104, 1401 - 1500
https://portail.biblissima.fr/fr/ark:/43093/mdataa7b4ffc440b55b6fc12dca58375ede1f007bf706

[solar cargo]

Procession of the Queen of Sheba; Meeting between the Queen of Sheba and King Solomon (detail)
1452-66
https://www.wga.hu/html_m/p/piero/2/2/index.html

Giovanni di ser Giovanni Guidi - The Adimari Cassone, circa 1450

[lone osprey]

pleats or riot

[visual latch]

Hat wear https://youtube.com/shorts/Xkhfc0xRy2o?si=6vlt_0q4WBwontlW

[robust tendon]

neat asymmetrical besagew

or at least looks like it

[fast pagoda]

On the archer, do you mean? Or which are you talking about

[fleet junco]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/866045129046360124/944010647602081842/2CCB7A64-1C11-4A6F-8034-F9E761DFDB68.gif

[fleet junco]

two sights eisenhut

[solar cargo]

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/22876

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/27019

[vocal vale]

Lmfao. Eyesinhut.

[void stream]

Owl eyed barbute my beloved

Some stuff

[solar cargo]

German pursuivant (f°11v) -- «Treatise on heraldry», France, circa 1450-1460

[solar cargo]

Detail from The Flower of Histories, by Jean Mansel, or "the abridged Roman histories, taken from Titus Livius, Lucan, Orosius, Suetonius and several other authors, from the foundation of Rome to the time of Constantine the Great, emperor of it." The Flower of Histories, by Jean Mansel. Volume I Date of publication: 1454 Ms-5087 reserve Folio 39r
https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b550098052/f83.item

[solar cargo]

Hugo von Trimberg: Der Renner · Johann Hartlieb: Alexanderroman Südtirol (Kartause Allerengelberg?) · 1468 Cod. Bodmer 91 Folio 103v https://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/de/fmb/cb-0091/103v/0/Sequence-840

[weak halo]

Silly little guys

[fleet junco]

arms

[solar cargo]

Detail from Entrée d'Isabeau de Bavière à Paris (France, Paris. Bibliothèque nationale de France, Département des manuscrits, Français 2646 f.6), 15th Century
https://portail.biblissima.fr/ark:/43093/ifdata58194507f76727c2a15c5bbc47b0da4a6a96771c

[fiery sinew]

people were just doing anything back then

[lone osprey]

he dont know bout swamp wrestlin

[lone osprey]

I need live musical accompaniment to the battles

[terse sorrel]

Gotta see the guy who goes HEY HEY HEY in some of the music.

[torpid ridge]

Dead internet theory or smth idk

[fleet junco]

what the

[torpid ridge]

the corinthian helmet was useful back then so the barbute coming back into existence only makes sense

[terse bronze]

Heyya!

[void stream]

[solar cargo]

Illustration from Faits du Grand Alexandre, adaptation française par Vasque de Lucène des Historiarum Alexandri Magni Macedonis libri de Quinte-Curce, 1450-1500

[solar cargo]

Detail from Allegory of April: Triumph of Venus - Francesco del Cossa, circa 1470

[signal sedge]

He's just a little guy

[lost zealot]

he bites

[lone osprey]

'what are you going to do, stab me?'

[lost zealot]

wanna duel now lad ?

[turbid shadow]

quite busy rn

[lost zealot]

ok then, shoot a dm if ye ready fam 👍

[fast niche]

omg the oud!!!!!!!!!!!! (or is that a lute)

[left coral]

Yo pals, anyone know of any good resources for various 15th century polearms?

Different bills, halberds, fauchards, etc etc.

Voulges and the like

[lost zealot]

https://youtu.be/rdslWL_A7D4

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2238420386383150/

"XV Century European Armor" group also provide sum gud gud sheisse

but its on facebook

[peak chasm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qK1SjwTEbI

[signal sedge]

I will take the risk

[lost zealot]

https://tenor.com/view/husky-biting-dog-bite-gif-11618216

[next orchid]

Ceremony swords

[next orchid]

Hafted Weapons in Medieval and Renaissance Europe by John Waldman

[silver heart]

literally was fwing so hard with that video until they said that goofy shi😭

pretty sure they’ve said something to a similar degree in another video as well

really don’t get where all these sword misconceptions come from bruh

[next orchid]

its so dumb

[terse sorrel]

18th century polearms are so cool.

Partisaning it up..

[solar cargo]

it's an example of an early lute

[lost zealot]

No thank you ?

[terse sorrel]

Huh?

[lost zealot]

Given ye the sources and no thank you :(

[terse sorrel]

It never occurred to me, thank you very much! It's a fantastic visual, and I will have a look at the video later.

[lost zealot]

Sht wrong person, i thought youre the guy that asked for it😭

Ah sht, i head out

Really sorry for taking your time out

[terse sorrel]

I thank you anyway, it is a helpful resource.

[terse sorrel]

Don't even worry about it, it's not an issue in the slightest.

[lost zealot]

Oh ok then, thanks lad

[terse sorrel]

Of course.

[fast niche]

damn :(

[solar cargo]

i mean, in the late middle ages/early renaissance, they were pretty much played with the same technique by using a plectrum. the biggest difference between lutes and ouds before the end of the 15th/beginning of the 16th century was the fact one had frets and the other did not

[silver heart]

like what do these mf's think they'd do once their lance broke or their pollaxe had to be dropped? just fucking stand there and die ???

[next orchid]

former never happens, latter would never be done 😏

[silver heart]

true! they'd just end up getting saved by muh levies with pointy stick har har har heh heh heh

[next orchid]

Truth

[light forge]

“In the 103 cases of murder and manslaughter presented to the coroners of Nottinhamshire between 1485 and 1558 the staff figured in 53, usually as the sole fatal weapon. The sword, in contrast, accounted for only 9 victims and 1 accidental death.” 1

sticc

[robust tendon]

It's just the whole 'swords useless against le platemail' thing turned up to eleven

instead of swords being bad it's now they're used because stupid medieval people are superstitious

[light forge]

the main misconception is just main arm vs sidearm

[robust tendon]

what do you mean

for some, the main arm was the sword (schlachtschwerts, one handed swords, stuff like that)

[light forge]

plenty yeah

but if you have something longer the 1h sword becomes a sidearm

[robust tendon]

well it was up to preference

[light forge]

that also makes it stupid to suggest they weren't carried/used

[robust tendon]

some would prefer a shield and an 'arming sword'

[light forge]

like you can't carry a pike around

do you know of anything around the length of an arming sword with enough handle to two-hand? the terminology gets confusing

is that just "longsword" now

[robust tendon]

i think there are some which could be wielded both two handed or one handed

idk much about weapons though

[light forge]

oh are you more into armor

[robust tendon]

yea i know more stuff about armor (not much)

more than some people though

[light forge]

Japanese had this thing called a Nagamaki that was basically a greatsword/nodachi sized handle slapped on a longsword/katana sized blade

I think used mostly by conscripts who couldn't afford an actual nodachi but wanted longer reach to not die

[light forge]

just shove the stick up his butt

[fleet junco]

he has a very long forearm

[bright token]

Some cool polearms I found on pinterest. Also I would like to know can weapon number 5 and 7 be considered as a halberd too?

[silver heart]

i’ve seen them referred to as “scorpions” in some sources, something attuned to a hybrid of a halberd and roncone but historically depending on who you’d ask they could refer to it as a halberd but as with all bits of weapon terminology from the period it depends

[silver heart]

so this is referring to a civil context as opposed to a military context? if so then those figures would make plenty sense to me

[light forge]

oh yes definitely

[silver heart]

swords are useless against plate chuds when i half sword and drive my point into their axillary artery and they bleed out in less than three minutes: 🙀🙀🙀

[bright token]

Thank you Der Brewvi

[dim mauve]

No the polearm was absolutely the main weapon of basically anyone who's in a line fight.

[dim mauve]

The mail that's there to stop exactly that from happening when it stops that from happening.

[dim mauve]

I've seen bits of chainmail that you couldn't get a fuckin needle through, and would have every chance at stopping a bodkin point shot from a warbow or a crossbow bolt. You ain't getting a sword through shit like that.

[verbal bramble]

What even is platemail? Is that what some people call a "plate" harness?

[robust tendon]

i don’t think absolutely every infantryman was using a polearm lol. Whether it was most is a different story though

i do not have a source for this though

[robust tendon]

just a dumb name for plate harness

i think it has origins with victorians calling everything -mail

Idk though

[verbal bramble]

A h . It just sounds... Bad, there is no other way to put it

[dim mauve]

"Maile" is a specific type of armour, the word means something along the lines of lattice or Web.

Often called chain-mail but it's not made of chains, it's mail

[verbal bramble]

Yep, "maille" sounds correct to me. What doesn't is the term "platemail", which seems to be what some people seem to call a plate harness, to me it sounds like nonsense, and that term was what I was talking about.

[dim mauve]

"platemail" is an utterly erroneous term.

Jogged my memory quickly, maille is the French word for mesh which is basically in line with what I said.

The only armour where "platemail" might make any sense is possibly brigandine, steel plates riveted to a fabric.

[verbal bramble]

Thought so

[terse bronze]

Iicr platemail is literally a dnd term

[dim mauve]

Definitely sounds like a dnd term

[verbal bramble]

I blame the Victorians in this case, they liked to add things to the word "mail"

[terse bronze]

I saw scalemail as well still very dnd

[verbal bramble]

Yeah that's def a D&D term, I used to play D&D and still do want to play it (though the armor system def needs a rework), and that is indeed a D&D term

[dim mauve]

Every system in dnd needs reworking.

Dnd players will wrongly try to correct people who call wyverns dragons whilst also calling armour "platemail"... If you're gonna be a nerd emoji you could at least try to be correct about something.

[next orchid]

its full tanged

[next orchid]

"staff" includes spears. i suspect Nottinhamshire was probably dealing with a brigandry issue, which is also why the carrying of light lances was banned multiple times in England by ordinance.

[next orchid]

considering they threw their spears a lot...

[next orchid]

arming sword originally just meant the sword of the man at arms (an estoc), but since in England and France the arming sword was usually short, it came to refer to a short sword in the 16th century

[next orchid]

also in london, most murders were done with swords

[next orchid]

(this is also why we have hache d'armes, masse d'armes, cheval d'armes, etc etc., all referring to the "things" of the armed man, ie the man at arms)

[next orchid]

the high medieval german knights preferred to use their swords when they fought dismounted. the early medieval and late antiquity germanics too, and the celtiberians and gauls in antiquity, also a lot of the southern chinese fought with sword and shield. those archers in the archer heavy armies in late medieval western europe fought hand to hand principally with sidearms (so swords).

i mean, there were swordsmen still fighting in "lines" as late as the 19th century, like in Sudan and India

[silver heart]

and is this modern reproduction or genuine historical quality mail?

even then, qualities of mail varied historically but, i find it hard to believe there’s such a thing as mail incapable of being penetrated by a planted and directed thrust of the tip of a sword. otherwise im not sure why every sword in armor manuscript would show exactly such a thing occurring in the first place.

[robust tendon]

and some other armor types where it is literally just plated maille

ottoman stuff if i recall

[next orchid]

the parts that need to flex cant be that tight

since, by necessity, they need to flex

although at the same time ive also read of guys thrusting through gorgets and those were probably the tightest maille

[midnight whale]

i feel like a coat of plates would fit the bill

i'm no expert though

[dim mauve]

Modern reproduction maile is worse than historical

Modern maille is almost entirely made in India.

[silver heart]

i never claimed otherwise, hence why i asked for clarification:)

[dim mauve]

Even riveted maile which is generally superior to butted maile is made of extremely thin rings with inner diameters greater than they should be. I have a suit of similar riveted maile and after a year it already has holes on it, I have a friend with a suit of butted maile that he's had for over ten years and it has zero holes

The reason his butted maile has no holes is because it's not made of shitty metal

[silver heart]

anyways can i get some sourcing on this mail you claim can't be penetrated by bodkins or bolts let alone the point of a sword?

[dim mauve]

Now make a suit of riveted maile like that.

I've held it in my hands, each ring was at least 2 mm thick

Probably more

A sword is never bending a ring that's two mm thick

[silver heart]

so do you have like footage of it being tested and your claims holding up or?

gonna need a lil more than word of mouth to believe such a claim

[dim mauve]

Why would I have footage of that?

[silver heart]

why wouldn't you? the way you put it, it sounded like you have seen firsthand that the mail held up against all the weapons you mentioned

[dim mauve]

You'd struggle to get a sword through shitty maile, nevermind superior maile.

[next orchid]

how shitty

[next orchid]

also it is

[silver heart]

AINT NO WAY😭

[dim mauve]

Reenactment maille

[next orchid]

how reenactment

[dim mauve]

Not a chance in hell.

[next orchid]

yes a chance in hell, theyll literally break rings too

theres a lot of force in a structured thrust

[silver heart]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1279939366684332042/1326991857972019211/attachment.gif

[dim mauve]

Have you ever seen 2mm thick maille?

[next orchid]

no im blind

[dim mauve]

It's basically maille made out of rings this thick.

You are never breaking that with a sword

[silver heart]

you're fucking with us right?

[dim mauve]

You have no idea what you're talking about

[silver heart]

still waiting on that footage btw

or at least some photos

[dim mauve]

If I didn't have them five minutes ago why would I have them now?

[indigo dagger]

#photography📷 #general-catfish-🐱🐟 the channels dissapeared sorry to interrupt

[next orchid]

why is the maille for the voiders the thickest thing ever

[silver heart]

why would you make such a claim only based off of word of mouth in the first place when you very confidently stated your claim as a counter to my claim of the point of a sword being able to pierce through someone's armpit voiders?

[next orchid]

would probably literally be double the weight of the historical thicknesses ive seen

[dim mauve]

Good maille is heavy

[silver heart]

(these rings are 2mm thick btw💀 )

[dim mauve]

No they aren't hahahaha

[silver heart]

DAWGGGG

[dim mauve]

That's not even one mm

[silver heart]

this has to be ragebait

[dim mauve]

You can bend those rings in your hands

[next orchid]

"good maille" doesnt need to be heavy

[silver heart]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1009701185210564628/1374244491296243783/IMG_4535.gif

[dim mauve]

The more metal you have the heavier it is, and more metal means it's stronger, what a bogus claim.

[next orchid]

yeah which means 2mm maille is actually shit cuz it should be 4mm instead

[dim mauve]

What

[next orchid]

thicker =/= necessarily better, especially for something to cover the voids

[dim mauve]

Thicker steel is harder to bend and snap, it also means there are less gaps

[next orchid]

it also means you have to wear more weight lol

[dim mauve]

Yea that's always been the tradeoff lol

[next orchid]

and most of the maille ive seen is hardly above 1mm

[next orchid]

duh

which is why its not necessarily better

[dim mauve]

That's why italian armoir weighs more than german, some people liked more protection, some liked more movement

[dim mauve]

It's better at stopping swords, which is what I said.

[next orchid]

no that is not what you said

[dim mauve]

Yes, it's literally what I said.

[next orchid]

quote "good maille is heavy"

[silver heart]

"I've seen bits of chainmail that you couldn't get a fuckin needle through, and would have every chance at stopping a bodkin point shot from a warbow or a crossbow bolt. You ain't getting a sword through shit like that."

[dim mauve]

In the context of stopping swords...

[next orchid]

no the context was why is it so thick

[dim mauve]

The whole argument is about busting maile with a sword 😂

[silver heart]

you also claimed bodkins from a "warbow" and crossbow bolts wouldn't be able to pierce it on top of your claim regarding swords. three claims and no backing evidence for any of them.

[next orchid]

so you think voiders were 2mm thick

[dim mauve]

Some were.

I've seen thicker than that

[next orchid]

so post them

[silver heart]

@next orchid i guess this guys smith didnt get the giga super mail, sad!

[next orchid]

lifts the helmet
stabs the armor anyways

[dim mauve]

You're definitely someone who gets their info from YouTube

I make and alter armour I'm sure I know a bit more about it than you do sir.

[silver heart]

hey do you have any videos or photos yet?

[dim mauve]

Why the fuck would I?

[silver heart]

if so and your claim of me getting my info from youtube is also true then maybe you could post some videos there and i could watch them!

[dim mauve]

Lol I was right, you think any meaningful information exists on YouTube?

[silver heart]

yeah man! for sure! hans talhoffer was well known to have first posted his fencing in armor manuscript to youtube in the mid 15th century! im just a little hecking uneducated chud

[robust tendon]

incredible way to argue a point

'erm i know more than you'

[dim mauve]

Do you not think someone who makes suits of maile would know more about maile?

[robust tendon]

probably, but I'm saying it's stupid to form your argument around how you totally know more

[silver heart]

"ermmmm why would i have backing evidence for three separate claims i made in an attempt to refute your claim that sword points wouldn't be able to break through someones axillary voiders?!?"

[next orchid]

anyways the treatises say to thrust the armpit etc, and a lot of the points dont even need to break a link to go through the gaps between the rings, which need to exist on the areas that need to flex. can we just go with the primary sources

[silver heart]

go make repro of axillary voiders and test bodkins from a warbow, crossbow bolts, and the point of a sword

[dim mauve]

I didn't form my argument around it, I didn't even mention making armour until now

Lmao

[dim mauve]

You can have maile with only tiny gaps that still flexes, Its just heavier.

[silver heart]

his response to me posting something from talhoffers first manuscript was that i get all my info from youtube so idk if we can even bring up the treatises at this point, he seems to be blatantly ignoring it

[robust tendon]

I think the fact that those in plate harness would bring swords to battle with intent to, you know, use them against other people in plate harness, is evidence enough that they worked

[silver heart]

lil vro is wishing he had that giga mail right about now!!!

[robust tendon]

that and the lengthy period of maille being the primary form of armor in Europe

[dim mauve]

I didn't say it didn't work, I'm saying it's not easy and there's maile that makes it impossible

[robust tendon]

historical maille?

i don't doubt there is modern stuff that can pull that off

[silver heart]

people also didn't bring crossbows and longbows i suppose

[next orchid]

"The mail that's there to stop exactly that from happening when it stops that from happening"
ok can u form ur argument so its not contradictory

[dim mauve]

Dude reproduction maile is like half a mm thick, one mm at most.

[dim mauve]

What the fuck was the maile there for then?

[robust tendon]

this is about the densest extant i know of

[dim mauve]

Lmao

[robust tendon]

because it might still work

[next orchid]

not because it was invincible lol

a structured thrust vs a shitty near-voided one. also prevents lacerations from near misses

armor doesnt need to be invincible to work

[dim mauve]

I didn't say it was. But some maile was a hell of a lot stronger than other maile

[next orchid]

yes

especially for the hauberks that they wore on their breasts, or the gorgets

[silver heart]

"I've seen bits of chainmail that you couldn't get a fuckin needle through, and would have every chance at stopping a bodkin point shot from a warbow or a crossbow bolt. You ain't getting a sword through shit like that."

except you did it say it was

[next orchid]

but a structured thrust is pretty powerful, and its not like we dont have firsthand accounts of thrusts going through maille

[dim mauve]

No, I fucking didnt, can you read?

[dim mauve]

Yes, they can fucking to through maile, not all maile

[silver heart]

"You ain't getting a sword through shit like that"

[dim mauve]

Jesus christ

[robust tendon]

"you did this" "nuh uh"

[silver heart]

am i reading this wrong or?

[dim mauve]

I'm specifically talking about one type of maile you melt

[next orchid]

ok so why bring it up

clearly wasnt popular enough since every single armored fencing treatise says to thrust through it

[silver heart]

aaaand now come the insults and aggressive language, classic signs of someone persevering in a debate!

[dim mauve]

They don't tell you to do that because it works alot, they tell you to do it because it's far better than going for the plate lmao

[silver heart]

oh my god😭

[dim mauve]

No I'm just getting fed up of you twisting what I'm saying.

[silver heart]

^^^

[robust tendon]

if it was impossible or near impossible either way, you'd think they'd tell you to do neither

[dim mauve]

You're once again, ignoring the point

[next orchid]

they literally tell you that those regions are the best areas to attack in the gloss

[dim mauve]

Infeasible and impossible are two different things

[robust tendon]

idk why they tell you to do something that's infeasible

it's a fight, you should focus on what works

[silver heart]

"I am the student of the Counter-Remedy Master who came before me and I complete his play as follows: when I have turned my opponent, I immediately strike him from behind, either under his right arm, or under his coif into the back of his head, or into his buttocks (excuse my language), or into the back of his knee, or in any other place where he is unprotected."

[dim mauve]

Yea cus the rest is covered in fucking plate 😂

[dim mauve]

Because its your only hope

[next orchid]

the hands? the wrist? the face

[silver heart]

"either under his right arm"

[next orchid]

its literally not even your only hope

[silver heart]

@dim mauve hey, remind me, what do you call the part of the body located under your arm?

[dim mauve]

Your only hope of killing someone in plate armour is by going for the bits that aren't covered in plate, like the voiders 😂

[robust tendon]

you can still beat the fuck out of him

[silver heart]

which a sword would be able to pierce through

[robust tendon]

but clearly those other options are not as effective as stabbing through the voiders if that's what fencing treatises tell you to do

and depict

[dim mauve]

Lol, lmao even

[robust tendon]

plate armor isn't invincible

[dim mauve]

Have you ever been hit while wearing plate armour? You can't feel it.

[silver heart]

@dim mauve so i suppose pollaxe top spikes aren't getting through either, right?

[robust tendon]

No, but I would think sustained hits to the head would kill or severely concuss a man. and if it is supposedly this unfeasible to just stab him, that would work. but fencing treatises, as mentioned before, do not tell you to do that

[dim mauve]

Pollax is irrelevant to this debate, they are entirely different weapons and they are vastly more powerful than a sword thrust.

[silver heart]

so, wait, in that case, i suppose we should throw out your claims of heavy poundage bows using bodkins and crossbows being unable to pierce through mail as well, right?

[next orchid]

It's not like we don't have accounts where they do wound through the maille

[silver heart]

i dont even know how he's still going at this point. we've provisioned historical visual and textual evidence to back our claims.

meanwhile he has no such visual evidence to back his own.

[dim mauve]

No lmao, poleaxe was delivered more force than an arrow and even then it probably couldn't get though the maile I'm on about.

[robust tendon]

the evidence

[silver heart]

which is why fiore in his section on the azza tells the reader to utilize the point of the pollaxe against the opponents mail gaps? because it probably couldn't get through?

[dim mauve]

Because. It's. More. Likely. To. Work. Than. Going. For. The. Plate.

[silver heart]

hell not even just the top spike, fiore LOVES talking about the butt spike as well which is gonna deliver even LESS force than the top spike yet still plenty enough to pierce through mail

[next orchid]

So why not go for just the hands, wrist, face, and under the chin? If "more likely to work" is still "unfeasible" then it's practically impossible and wouldn't be recommended

[dim mauve]

Yea because for the thousandth time, maile varied greatly in strength and quality.

[next orchid]

Ok so this mythical maille just wasn't popular amongst men at arms

[dim mauve]

Bits that are all covered in plate?

[silver heart]

for the thousandth time? my brother, when has this been your argument in the first place😭

[dim mauve]

People certainly did go for hands

[next orchid]

Yes but not only

[fleet junco]

i think people went to the parts not covered by plate

[dim mauve]

Crazy idea man

[robust tendon]

could you even make voiders for under the arm as dense as like gorgets

was that even a thing?

[fleet junco]

i dunno what u guys r talking aburt

[next orchid]

Also wrists aren't fully covered, nor are the hands, and you can lift the visor etc

[dim mauve]

Yes, it takes up the same amount of space, you just lower the diameter of each ring of thicken the steel.

[next orchid]

How would you move your arms

[dim mauve]

Because its just as mobile

[robust tendon]

yeah visor locks aren't really a thing until later, assuming you have already subdued your opponent it would be quite easy to simply stab him in his face. The people who wrote these manuscripts definitely knew this, so why would they point to the areas protected by voiders as areas to go for when one could easily lift the visor?

or at least that's what i remember

[dim mauve]

Mobile as in it can bend just as much

It's heavier for sure

[silver heart]

but not enough for a planted and directed thrust via way of the tip of a longsword to bend it?

[next orchid]

If it's taking the same amount of space and the diameter of each ring is lowered...

Even gorgets for thrust through anyways

[dim mauve]

It bends because it's a fucking mesh not because the steel itself bends 🤦‍♂️

[silver heart]

"You ain't getting a sword through shit like that."

[dim mauve]

You're just saying words

There's no thought process

[silver heart]

BROTHER YOU LITERALLY ARE THE ONE WHO SENT THE MESSAGE😭

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1279939366684332042/1326991857972019211/attachment.gif

[dim mauve]

I'm not talking about the links themselves bending or breaking, I'm talking about the mesh, you know, because it's MAILLE

Maile fucking bends thays what it's made to do

[next orchid]

Anyways in lack of tests, we go with the primary sources, and not logic

[silver heart]

meaning you were just saying words and there was no thought process behind that message. if there was no thought process behind that message than you made a thoughtless and unsubstantiated claim and you have admitted to as much now by stating this.

[robust tendon]

no but it just makes le sense

[dim mauve]

Reading comprehension of a toddler, genuinely

[silver heart]

making your argument null and void and meaning there's no need for a continuance of this discussion as you have now admitted to your wrongs.

[silver heart]

https://tenor.com/view/nick_hf-projecting-gif-22762955

[dim mauve]

It's like you think that making sense is irrelevant in a debate, you just have to make it sound like you're responding or counteracting a point.

Everything you have said up until this point is what I'd expect from someone who's making responses based on guessing and no prior knowledge of the argument

It's like you heard "to confuse your enemy, confuse yourself" and you took it seriously.

[left coral]

HISTORIAN FIGHT

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT

[next orchid]

Little of the extant maille is super thick, with super small rings, and thrusts going through the voiders aren't exactly rare in the primary sources. Although the maille will still probably limit the penetration, this super maille was at the very least not popular at all, even amongst men at arms

[robust tendon]

historian is used quite loosely here

[fleet junco]

read documents 4 fun

[robust tendon]

true

[dim mauve]

I never said anything relating to it's popularity, I only said that it exists, and that normal maile was still hard to get through.

[next orchid]

Ok! Then it wasn't unfeasible, and with a good, structured thrust, it would probably reliably penetrate (at least multiple cm) and we can leave it at that

[dim mauve]

I'd rather get them on the floor first

Good luck pulling a shot like that off mid fight

[next orchid]

They happened since we have the primary sources

Don't you do harness fencing too

[dim mauve]

Idk if I'd call it fencing

[next orchid]

Dawg...

[dim mauve]

You don't know what I do

Lmao

I do different variations of combat fighting in armour, whether or not that falls under fencing idk

@silver heart heres an image for you since you don't seem to know what two millimeters is in comparison to maille thickness.

[silver heart]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-vibe-gif-21246093

[dim mauve]

Hardly even half a millimeter lmao

[fleet junco]

do yall think im tourneys they ever jousted unarmored

[lone osprey]

Look up Pfannenrennen

[fleet junco]

pfannenrennen

[lone osprey]

Ye

[fleet junco]

can we add this to halfsword

[lone osprey]

HS devs doing horses would be the happiest day of my life

[terse sorrel]

They should be like hyper realistic goofy TABS horses.

[lone osprey]

but also for the pfannenrennen:

• english historians think they never actually performed the joust because there is no record of it apart from the images
• german sources don't mention them not performing the joust, but claim they wore a a breastplate under the doublet to make it look more dangerous

[next orchid]

mustve looked weird seeing a doublet break a lance

[verbal bramble]

Holy shit that's terrifying. That's gotta be one of the best "wear your besagews" "PSA" (I call it "PSA" for lack of a better term) I've ever seen

[lone osprey]

I see now the german claim is based on schemel's tourney encyclopaedia
so nvm probably never jousted unarmoured

[next orchid]

cowards...

They shouldve been taking splinters into their jugulars

[terse bronze]

jousting went woke

[summer root]

Your armor makes company arm street?

A sorry this reference of internet

My relative just works in this company produces medieval armor.

[bright token]

https://www.instagram.com/p/DKwLb7wIOvK/?igsh=djF5dDJ6cnF6NWVt

der_kriegsknecht_zu_landshut

Am Freitag gehts zum Mittelalterfest „Heller und Barde" nach Arnstorf. Dort machen wir beim Programm der Reiter und Ritterspiele vom Verein „Zunft und Zeug e.V." mit und führen dort Harnischfechten mit der Mordaxt auf ⚔️🛡️ Kommt doch vorbei und schaut zu 😉 Auf schöne Gespräche würde ich mich ebenso freuen 😀
.
#schongau #kr...

Instagram

Cool stuff

[void stream]

1480, Flanders

Although it dates back to 1480, it is quite interesting to include these illustrations here.

[weak halo]

Platemail reminds me of Fable TLC, I like that game

[silver heart]

first fellas armet😻

[next orchid]

average response to seeing any armet

(best helmet)

[robust tendon]

true

[fast niche]

that is not the simpson lil bro

[ancient pivot]

Woah what is that one on the left?

[fast niche]

its a mannequin im pretty sure

[lone osprey]

looks like rennzeug breastplate to me

[fast niche]

some interesting stuff]

[earnest dust]

Does anybody have some advice on where to start when researching armour?

[dim mauve]

Books.

Best thing is to find a time period and style of armour that you like and then read books about those time periods and styles by people who know what they're talking about.

Like Tobias Capwell for like, mid to late 15th century English armour for example.

[terse bronze]

unironically some FB groups are very good and are often filled with academics, smiths and very knowledgeable enthusiasts

look for groups that are "[century number in roman numerals] Century European Armour" some examples bellow

https://discord.com/channels/1043854763189600337/1359306763832266992 also you can check this channel

[dim mauve]

Looks in Facebook group.

Immediately sees innacurate helmet.

[terse bronze]

Read about it more, they state it's a repro of that one notorious fake

also check tabor armoury anyway that guy does insane work

[dim mauve]

Not in that Facebook post they don't, someone mentions it in the comments.

I like those Facebook groups but I really wouldn't use them for actual research, especially since the scope of "15th century European armour" vague.

[terse bronze]

It's an insanely good entry point however.

Especially iff you're relatively new to all of this since there's a lot of actually knowledgeable people you can easily interact to and who can answer your question if you post one

Like deadass real academics who made thesis and stuff

[dim mauve]

Well yeah, I've mentioned in this server about a friend of mine in his 70s who knows just about everything about armour, he's in those Facebook groups and so are the armourers he knows.

[terse bronze]

cool 👍

[dim mauve]

Much better than asking people on like, reddit or something.

[terse bronze]

Yeah definitely

The craziest take I ever saw were on Reddit & Youtube comment section (althought that's kinda the easy mode if you're looking for crazy comments)

on the topic of cool shit I need to post these

[dim mauve]

Facebook is probably the best way to try and connect with the people who actually know what they're on about, particularly if you're not from Europe.

Facebook is alot more connected, like alot of the people posting on those Facebook groups know each other or go to the same events.

[dim mauve]

Are these from an event?

Like all from the same one?

[terse bronze]

yeah

[dim mauve]

Which?

[terse bronze]

forgot which one tho

it's recent

[dim mauve]

Mainland Europe surely

[terse bronze]

Most of these reenactors are french or belgian or around there

but yeah mainland europe

not sure where specifically tho

[dim mauve]

Can tell it's not an England one because they appear to be marching and maybe battling near or in castle ruins.

Can't do that in the uk

[terse bronze]

tragic

[turbid shadow]

george's jolliot being cray fishing the shit out of it fr fr fr

[dim mauve]

Interesting ciurass

[terse bronze]

Another absolute occitan win

[turbid shadow]

if u wanna see the reconstruction

[dim mauve]

Doubt you'd get that in England, probably too late

[terse bronze]

don't recall seeing anything like that outside of germany and france/flanders

[dim mauve]

Keep remembering the battle of tewkesbury is only a month away now.

Is or at least was the biggest medieval festival in Europe, so I've been told.

Need to get on and fix my arm harness and leg harness before it's too late.

Basically...
I gotta take all the rivets out, reshape each lame with a ballpin hammer from the inside so that they don't pop out again, change the rivet holes on each lame so each rivet can move back and fourth along a single axis to allow the harnesses to not just bend, but also twist, then I gotta re rivet it all together again.

[next orchid]

the og helmet looks cooler 😔

gondor franken helmet my beloved

[earnest dust]

Thanks!

I've used the met and the wallace collection in the past, but I wasn't very aware of the others

[fleet junco]

@short ice

[short ice]

what the hell

Dyno bot not wiping banned messages wooo

[fleet junco]

dyno sux

[solar cargo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFqpLKvq0xw&ab_channel=scholagladiatoria here's a video about civilian swords for those interested

[bright token]

https://www.instagram.com/p/DKztCL_MfUh/?igsh=MW5jZzEyM254bTlkbw== cool

malleus_maleficarum2007

W dniach 6–8 czerwca w Kaniach pod Warszawą odbyły się manewry wojskowe z drugiej połowy XV wieku.
I my również wzięliśmy w nich udział — choć w bardzo skromnym albo bardzo zacnym składzie. 🙂

📸 Foto: Damian Sz.

#miecz #15thcentury #rekonstrukcjahistoryczna #historicalcostume #historicalphotos #sword #instafashion #livingh...

Instagram

[thorny otter]

Siege of Thil, castle in France, near Dijon. Around 150 people, inspired by the events around Hagenbach and the prelude to Burgundian wars

Organized by the Genz d'ordennance

And while i know we are here mostly armor fans

the most insane thing to see there in person was the Stadtliches Aufgebot's new cannon

Around 250 kilos of bronze in weight, uses almost half a kilo per charge if I remember correctly. And they are now working on the rest of the carriage, so they can pull it by horses on events

[bright token]

Really like this sallet (sorry if it has been share for the 100th time)

https://royalarmouries.org/collection/object/object-490 source

[sullen charm]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-fairy-glitter-leo-dude-fuck-yes-gif-996220195472280544

the rust on it makes it look so damn cool

[peak chasm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNKjMBtrNmI

[lucid briar]

You could also rivet a leather strap in the cuisse and at the last poleyn lame to prevent the leg armor from over extending. Faster fix in case you don't have enough time.

[lucid briar]

How much does one of those cost god damn.

Want to mount one at the top of my stairs

[silver heart]

love the later variety of these where the tail is articulated

[iron ledge]

Has anyone here found any decent sources of painted breastplates prior to the 16th century, or brigandines that aren't a single colour?

[lone osprey]

this receipt in the Bayerisches Hauptstaatsarchiv from 1475 may indicate that the painter (Sigmund maler) added livery to jousting armour. it could also mean he just created the designs that were then produced in fabric though. the author of the article this is in (Franz Niehoff) interprets it as painted on the armour, but I don't see that as necessary given the rest of the receipt. they did for tournament horse armour in the 15th century. so this is limited to purely tournament contexts and isn't definitive.

[lone osprey]

are there supposed to be painted breastplates or multicoloured brigandines in this image?

[fast pagoda]

I was wondering the same

[terse bronze]

clothing actually

• 1480-1490 painting by Vicino da Ferrara
• 1476 Italy, BAV Urb.lat.1

@iron ledge ☝️

[iron ledge]

no, just a random image I found

The plackart without anything else is relatively notable though

[iron ledge]

thx

[fast pagoda]

I look up maille sleeves and skirts for some references and it pretty much only brings up some women’s shit like bikinis and stuff like holy fuck off 😭

Cannot trust google with ts

Then of course some unfitted buhurt stuff is also right next to it because I also wanted that

[terse bronze]

Look up maille voiders/faulds

Should lead more results

[fast pagoda]

Most likely

[bright token]

https://www.instagram.com/p/DK6qxYDIaac/?igsh=MTFzOHd4MGpubjkzMQ==

der_kriegsknecht_zu_landshut

Pferdeflüsterer 🐎😂
.
Picture by 📷 @heidenreichmathias
.
#mittelaltermarkt #mittelalter #medieval #pferd #horse #15thcenturyfashion #15thcentury #15thcenturyreenactment #15thcenturyarmor #15centuryart #15tesjahrhundert #1475 #bayern #bavaria #mittelalterreenactment #medievalreenactment #latemedieval #spätmittelalter #history #reenactm...

Instagram

Coustilier core lol

Or just light cavalryman in general 😅

[summer root]

👍

[next orchid]

i think leather horse armor was painted in general, but whether or not it was brought into the battlefield was regional (i know the French didnt very much, i dont think the Germans did very often either; but the italians did, and this was one of the major differences noted between the French and Italian men at arms at fornovo (1495)

leather breastplates in the 14th c. i suspect were painted sometimes

[untold brook]

https://youtu.be/3RYU5qyBhD0

hosted a deed of arms this weekend. felt like a half sword lyst with all the different armor styles and coverage levels

[fleet junco]

What is this

[verbal charm]

like wheres it from?

[fleet junco]

Yeah

[verbal charm]

Not sure of its original origin but its a scan from an old artbook.

[fleet junco]

sallet looks very

Strange...

[verbal charm]

ive got thousands lol

[latent drift]

i recall this art style and i belive it was made by a fantasy artist

[terse bronze]

I was made by Viollet-le-Duc

[terse bronze]

Viollet-le-Duc speciality was architecture and his armor drawings are supposed to be historical but ended up being .. well.. a product of its time

[latent drift]

i see my mistake but facinating

[terse bronze]

However can't argue that his illustrations do have a certain charm to it ngl

[latent drift]

indeed i think his artwork is cool

[bright token]

Is the blue shield a form of pavise?

[lone osprey]

I think an adarga

[bright token]

Thank you for the answer!

I really like it :]

[lone osprey]

I like that swiss fella in the background with the sash

[terse bronze]

yup adarga but a larger kind

[fast niche]

in the 2nd image 2 of the shields kina look like the one

[lone osprey]

dart boy
more games need darts

[terse bronze]

I agree

[thorny otter]

Thats's Jan Biedermann, former curator of the Prague's Institute of Military History

[lone osprey]

that's awesome. lol cool that you can identify him just by his fuzzy image in the background but I see him more clearly in the last picture kevlar posted too

[thorny otter]

It's not that hard, we meet on training every week, and since there were only three swiss guys with sash on the event, and i see it's neither me nor Pavel... ;))

[lone osprey]

power of deduction

[next orchid]

french charm

(negative charm to outsiders)

his famous handgunner with the hook gun though goes hard

even if its ahistorical as fuck

[solar cargo]

Rogier van der Weyden, St Columba Altarpiece: Adoration of the Magi [Balthasar], circa 1455

[lone osprey]

this one looks similar but with a weird fastening device

[turbid shadow]

good eye

[bright token]

Interesting breastplate 😮

[sweet bone]

whatever these are

[fleet junco]

these r not from 1450-1470

[sweet bone]

oop mb

[void stream]

ca. 1470 - St. George Altarpiece'

[sweet bone]

oh btw what website is this

[fast pagoda]

metropol museum of art

[bright token]

French knights?

https://www.instagram.com/p/DLCXDMSow4M/?igsh=b3gxZjJ4bnBnNzFs

der_kriegsknecht_zu_landshut

Reisiger Knecht, berittener Armbruster mit Inspirationen aus dem Wolfegger Hausbuch und den Thalhofer Manuskripten 🐎🏹⚔️😀
.
Der Reisige ist bewaffnet mit einer Armbrust die mit einer Zahnstangenwinde (leider noch nicht in meinem Besitz) und einem Langen Messer. Gerüstet mit einem Krebs (Brustplatte mit Geschübe), einer Schaller und...

Instagram

Another banger by Der Kriegsknecht zu Landshut 🗣️

[earnest dust]

1650-1700 and 1510-1520

That is not 1450-1470

[terse bronze]

that's my point

[earnest dust]

Oh my gawd

[earnest dust]

I would like to apologise I thought you were the guy who sent the photos for a second

[verbal bramble]

Did below-the-knee boots exist by this time period?

[fleet junco]

yeah

[verbal bramble]

Hm, interesting, I kind of want to see some of them

[void stream]

B O O T S

[lone topaz]

feet pics from 600 years ago

[chrome rover]

Thats the first thing you say in like two months? xd

[lone topaz]

i make my messages count

[chrome rover]

fair, silly ass message.

[void stream]

Not gonna lie the first pic goes hard

[terse dome]

💦

[solar cargo]

those boots are made for walkin

[lone osprey]

love this one

definitely want torses or headbands or whatever these are in HS

[void stream]

Loved the first one

[turbid shadow]

Big factual statement

As much as orles are cool we also need headbands

and they seem to be common in Germany so…

[terse bronze]

love how nothing fits the game in this image

[chrome rover]

What about the one in the dead centre?

[earnest dust]

3, 14, 9:

[deep roost]

what

[chrome rover]

the armor in the dead centre of the image Kevlar was referring to.

[deep roost]

What happened to him? Isn't he just beautiful?

[slim bear]

Zweipfander bulwark

a pan on a stick

a long stick

[deep roost]

Heavy shit

[slim bear]

does this mean heavy shit or good shit

[terse bronze]

they're 80s-90s

[haughty creek]

Look what they did to my boy

They butchered the Bascinet

[terse bronze]

That's not Bertrand Du Guesclin that's Bernard le Guerclunk

this whole image just kinda sucks tbh

super dated ass 19thc drawing

[weak halo]

We have Bertrand du Guesclin at home

[next orchid]

u can tell cuz he isnt using an awesome axe

[verbal bramble]

Look at them go! I kind of want a pair of them now for a "fully armored except for the greaves and the sabatons" kit

[deep roost]

Which year is this armor from?

[fleet junco]

today

[void stream]

2173

[sullen charm]

1469 i think

[void stream]

9 (Marshal) of France, from The Courtly Household Cards

Ms. germ. qu. 15, Kopie von Konrad Kyesers "Bellifortis"
Dating: 1460

And the last one of the night

[tranquil trout]

1425 - 1450 manuscript in the Netherlands, showing what looks like John the I of Brabant in the Siege of Worringen (in the middle)

he wasnt alive in the 15th century, but this is just a depiction of him

[solar cargo]

Le Miroir de l'humaine salvation, Ecole française, 15th century

[fast pagoda]

I like the chaperon-esque ears

So clothlike

And the feet which looks like the elephant has some loafers

[solar cargo]

and to top it off the trunk is just a straight up vacuum tube

[lone osprey]

"1 Maccabees recounts a 163 b.c.e. Syrian-led invasion, when war elephants turned violent with the “blood of grapes and mulberries,” against Jews. Going under it to strike “the belly of the beast,” Eleazar was crushed to death by the largest elephant, which he had thought carried the Syrian king, seeing it was adorned with a great tower and gold."

[lyric coral]

Pan

I want this ingame

[prisma raven]

Graf Bernhard II. von Solms, gestorben 1459

[fast niche]

Is this a houndskull?

just asking, dont know when it aas

[terse bronze]

yes, ca. 1361-1370

[fast niche]

:o

so cool

i love houndsskull

thanks

[terse bronze]

armet hounskulls are cool

[frozen quartz]

I can’t help but agree

[small moss]

Do you have a good link to this manuscript? I'm having some immediate difficulties finding the online scan.

[lean pendant]

here's a reference i used for sword poses really helpful

[turbid shadow]

https://sammlungen.ub.uni-frankfurt.de/msma/content/titleinfo/3657168 here

[void stream]

my hero

[void stream]

It doesn't fit in with the period in which the game takes place, besides being very, very early.

and btw

[deep roost]

I don't think this is a problem, is it a problem?

[void stream]

yes it's a problem

[deep roost]

%100?

[void stream]

I believe it is about 25%.

there's worse things

like

people posting weird armors and stuff

[deep roost]

yes i know

I will ask the modteam if this is a problem

[deep roost]

I think limiting it to a period of 30 years is very strange.

[terse sorrel]

I don't think it's very strange to have a reference channel that fits the time period of the game.

[deep roost]

But not a suggestion channel

[terse sorrel]

I'm not sure what you'd be suggesting, and plus, #1047240101152960525

[deep roost]

I didn't make a suggestion; I said this channel is not a suggestion channel.

I use translate

[terse sorrel]

I see.

Well, the issue is that you posted a reference that doesn't fit the timeframe.

[vocal vale]

yes

it is over 200 years before the game takes place

[deep roost]

Okey

[deep roost]

I know

[void stream]

then why did you posted?

[terse sorrel]

Just double check your dates next time and there won't be any issue.

[vocal vale]

for more information on this, generally to create a historical impression people limit sources to a quarter of a century (first, second, third, and fourth)

that is why it is a ~30 year flexibility

[void stream]

Ok guys imma find sources

bye

[vocal vale]

i want to note that two horn is a bit off

[deep roost]

Thanks

[deep roost]

I already knew the dates. Anyway

[terse sorrel]

If that's so, just avoid posting things that are outside of the timeframe.

[vocal vale]

the back hand should be held reversed

[deep roost]

As long as that's a problem, yes.

[vocal vale]

problem has been solved

go on git

[deep roost]

Okey! Okey don't shot!

[fast pagoda]

Useful for people who already know the motions and uses (yes it says it on the side but not in depth). But honestly, the best sources of the day are all translated into easily accessible English for free, from both German and Italian masters, and will give even more guards, the ways to use them, sequences and plays, what not to do with them

It is a good diagram do not get me wrong, and I know the point is to keep it concise, but further information is so available online for a very deep understanding, that is more than just showing the concept but rather explaining

[vocal vale]

i will say that they are illustrated very well

[fast pagoda]

Yep they are

[vocal vale]

'cept for bicorno.... my goat (haha ) will not be slandered in this way....

[fast pagoda]

Yea the illustration looks more similar to a key guard

Not held as high though

[void stream]

Parade shield, French (Burgundian) or Flemish (1470)

[void stream]

Schachzabelbuch - Cod.poet.et phil.fol.2
Dating: 1467
Link: https://digital.wlb-stuttgart.de/sammlungen/sammlungsliste/werksansicht?id=6&tx_dlf[order]=title&tx_dlf[id]=15902&tx_dlf[page]=9

I think that should be enough.

[turbid shadow]

Indeed! Beautiful manuscript, thanks tor sharing it to us

[small moss]

Same reason we don't reference the 19th century for a World War 2 game.

[deep roost]

There is a much bigger difference

[small moss]

Thanks!

[small moss]

If you take the time to learn about the little niche differences of arms and armour, material culture, etc throughout the 15th century, it makes a lot more sense.

[deep roost]

[small moss]

kastenbrusts with placards, weird.

[lean pendant]

this wouldve been way easier to draw

[wooden crow]

Is it only European references we can make

[terse bronze]

yes

[wooden crow]

I was gonna yap about the Onin War

[silver heart]

is this swiss?

[void stream]

German

[light forge]

this seems awkward, what cuts can you even make from there?

front hand forward, back hand reverse?

[vocal vale]

i'll go outside and demonstrate a few

[terse bronze]

Graf Bernhard II. von Solms, gestorben 1459

[void stream]

dang i saw this one yesterday

[terse bronze]

Main chapel of the cathedral of Zamora, Castile and León, Spain.

[terse bronze]

it's pretty awesome

this will be half sword in 2016

[light forge]

rtx on

maidens when

and maids

[prisma raven]

1490-1500 btw

[fast pagoda]

Weapon manipulation for one, it’s very easy to control the tip of the blade when the hand is put over top as so. Transitioning into it to thrust is quite powerful because you have easy access to push on the pommel with downward force. Vertical cuts are very doable, still lethal. Additionally, you can gain momentum from the position by crossing/winding very easily. For instance by crossing my hands I can get a diagonal unterhau into ochs

[terse bronze]

I thought it was 70-80

https://tenor.com/view/it's-over-over-it's-gif-3551756699416095564

[void stream]

https://tenor.com/view/its-over-soyjak-wojak-depression-depressed-gif-27376848

[prisma raven]

Garci Laso de la Vega (+1455), dating from the 1460s, Museo Santa Clara, Zafra, Extremadura, Spain.

[void stream]

Awesome!

[vocal vale]

third guy here is based on an earlier effigy from about 1415 iirc but the barbute and the rest of it stands

[lone osprey]

devs i must have a schecke with stehfalten

[fast niche]

Half sword and mordhau grip i think, is this a hounskull on the right? just another question

[fiery moth]

The one on the right is doing mornshalg I think

[fast niche]

oh ok

[robust tendon]

Mordschlag

and mordhau/mordschlag is one in the same

[fast niche]

didnt notice thta

the helmet 😭

i meant

[verbal bramble]

Nice, gilded/latten covered rolled edges

[midnight whale]

it could be a hounskull but its hard for me to say for certain since the shape is all weird

[fast niche]

yea

[midnight whale]

its definitely a visored bascinet of some sort though, maybe a great bascinet or just some weirdly shaped klappvisor

[silver heart]

great bascinet would have a plate gorget

[robust tendon]

they're just bascinets with what may or may not be hounskull style visors

[midnight whale]

yeah, i was mostly just going off of the visor shape

[vocal vale]

both are just weirdly drawn hounskull visors

[fast niche]

fair

thanks

[vocal vale]

telltale sign is the little mouth on the botom

[fast pagoda]

ugh someone tell this paulus mair guy to get better at drawing!

what lord hired this guy 😹

he draw it pretty good here though

which makes me thing it is somehow different. like a mix of a hounskull and the sorta rounded off visored bascinets. mixing the round bit but also having the mouth and opened ocular slits

idk

[silver heart]

i’m gonna glaive you kevlar

[terse bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/spongebob-meme-gif-26499032

[fleet junco]

i thought it was kult of athena for a second

[next orchid]

🤢

[terse bronze]

trve

[verbal bramble]

I love the plate voiders

Which region is this from?

[prisma raven]

France

[next orchid]

^alhamdulillah

[fast niche]

we should add tabards or whatever those are called to half sword

they're so cool

[fallow wren]

I know what you are

[terse bronze]

?

[fallow wren]

the v

it stands for 5 in roman!

hopefully that is the only meaning behind that

have a totally nice day!

[terse bronze]

trve kvlt black metal

[vocal vale]

[light heath]

You are correct.

[fiery moth]

Yippe

They should add mornshlag to half sword, currently you can put one hand on the handle and one on the blade, I want 2 on the blade to use it to bludgeon

[light heath]

That would make swords WAY more effective against the armoured opponents as well.
I get that is kinda what halfswording is for, but as a militia, you needa little distance from them as well.

[verbal bramble]

Why the emote? What is up with the harness? I think it is fine

[next orchid]

its burgundy

[verbal bramble]

And... What about Burgundy? What's the problem with Burgundy?

[verbal bramble]

I assume that's an inside joke, then

[terse bronze]

they're traitors

kill them alll !!!!!!

[next orchid]

Only hipsters like burgundy

[verbal bramble]

I think I understand now... It is about Joan of Arc, isn't it?

[slim haven]

A few of these are a bit off the time period, but it gives a somewhat general idea of the type of armor

-# A bit different than traditional western european armor (cuz its tatars and slavs) but some pretty cool stuff (please add ts yo 🙏)

[vocal vale]

yo ts not being added

[slim haven]

😔

worth a try

i aint see ts also

[lone osprey]

Tbh hellish quart is the best for that region of martial arts
Not the armour though

[robust tendon]

alla tedesca bp by old world armory

[silver heart]

https://a-breefe-discourse.blogspot.com/2025/06/the-long-sword-in-armor.html

[vocal vale]

more unshortened swords in harnischfechten PLEASE !!!!!

[silver heart]

but apparently you can't even pierce mail while half swording...

[grizzled bluff]

brigandine

[terse bronze]

nice reference thank you

[void stream]

Name: Heidelberg, Universitätsbibliothek Heidelberg, Cod. Pal. germ. 152
Elisabeth <Nassau-Saarbrücken, Gräfin
Dating: 1470
Link: https://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/cpg152/0452/info,thumbs#col_image

[grizzled bluff]

yes

pls

[void stream]

Monty Python looking helmet

[next orchid]

Lol

[silver heart]

meow?

[next orchid]

I know the guy who wrote that irl

[silver heart]

KINOOOOO

[next orchid]

Yeah he's an awesome dude

[quartz lily]

duck with sword

[junior kayak]

small ref dump for what i use with drawing

[dim mauve]

The english armour one is what I'm basing my armour on. (image with two guys in it)

Keep meaning to go up and photograph the effigy that those drawings are based on by my car was in for repairs at the time I was gonna do it.

[verbal bramble]

Which one? The second image (two in armor, one with a brig the other with a cuirass) or the sixth image (the one with the frogmouth helmet)?

[dim mauve]

Ciurass and brigandine

[verbal bramble]

Oh? Which one are you basing yours on? The one with the cuirass or the one with the brig?

[dim mauve]

Both

[verbal bramble]

Oh? So you are making a harness with multiple configurations?

[dim mauve]

Two harnesses

Bits can be swapped anyway

[verbal bramble]

Oh- Yeah, I heard those interchangeable bits are called "garnitures", but I suck at terminology so correct me if I am wrong

[bright token]

Cool soldier

I like his gaunlets. Where was this style of gauntlet common or popular? italy?

[fast niche]

i like em too

and the halberk

halberu

auberk

hal

fuck

hauberk

[vocal vale]

pretty sure it’s italian export

so mostly france and england

[bright token]

Thank you for the answer!

[sturdy lily]

Thats some drip right there

[mystic dove]

Ops can’t do nunin with that one.

[vivid solar]

Graham Turners art is a great ref

[fleet junco]

i didnt know he made 16th century art

[zenith forge]

I love the kit in the fourth image, I will always be partial to Armets/Close Helms

[vivid solar]

I adore hounskulls and armets/closed helms

Open face bascinet with a gorget's also very stylish

[vocal vale]

3, 5, and 6 don't fit

[vocal vale]

it was a tournament configuration

the tournament guidelines i've read from the period heavily recommend brigandines a lot of the time

[robust tendon]

they give any particular reason? Besides comfort I suppose

[vocal vale]

Rene d'Anjou's book:
"They also have a quite light brigandine..."

BNF Français 5867, ff 16r-17v
"When their legs and arms are armoured, they arm the torso left naked – some want a shirt – with a very
light brigandine, covered with fustian or leather, for the coat of arms goes over it; the which brigandine shall
weigh no more than ten to twelve pounds, and its chest all perforated with large lozenges or round holes,
to give the overworked body breathing and air. And the rest should be well-felted to be softer and protect
the flesh against the rust of the metal. "

both texts also mention the way the helmet should be attached to the brigandine which might be easier to achieve than with a normal breastplate

[vivid solar]

Would this be for jousting? Because that seems very dangerous if so.

[vocal vale]

no

[tired stream]

for a variant of the kolbenturnier, which is a contest on horseback with wooden batons

[vivid solar]

Cool, yeah that makes sense

[lone osprey]

hope we're getting turbans
source: https://opac.kbr.be/LIBRARY/doc/SYRACUSE/15229228

[next orchid]

they dont need to resist lanceblows

(although the english men at arms did wear brigandines in the 15th century)

[terse bronze]

those aren't turbans

[runic holly]

I love his work, btw BIG BURNOUT

[vivid solar]

Samme i adore his stuff

[vivid solar]

The full unedited painting btw

[runic holly]

peak

More bigger burnout

[vivid solar]

Honestly his Shrewsbury paintings are what got me loving hounskulls

[vivid solar]

This one's pure cinema

[lone osprey]

What are they
Right and left

[terse bronze]

Chaperons

[fast pagoda]

They just look bulbous cause they have bourrelets

Not dissimilar to a turban but not one

[lone osprey]

oh true

[lone osprey]

is that what those circular bits are

[fast pagoda]

Yea

[tiny valve]

Is that battle of bosworth field

[vivid solar]

You know it

Bit outdated depiction of Richard III though

He made another painting for Bosworth giving him a glowup

[tiny valve]

Nice

Is Graham Turner an reliable source?

[vivid solar]

Two actually. He was the first person to depict Richard using the remains they found

[vivid solar]

As far as I'm aware yeah. You can tell he does his research. Plus he jousts irl so he's got personal experience in that regard

He's professionally hired to illustrate a lot of Oxford Publishing's books

He also wrote and illustrated a massive non fiction on the wars of the roses

I'd say he's reliable

[vocal vale]

the most accurate medieval artist that comes to mind

[vivid solar]

Mhm

Is there any other medieval artists anyone could rec?

[vocal vale]

boris gauda

[fleet junco]

graham turner?

that doesnt look like graham turner

[vocal vale]

probably been posted here b4

[turbid shadow]

Cool guy ngl

[next orchid]

I don't like how he draws jacks

[runic holly]

Btw i think could be a cool idea have a boss in Guantlet what has a crown

[vivid solar]

It is. Different perspective on his first proper medieval painting.

[vivid solar]

Huh? Guys?

[void stream]

I think he means this

[vivid solar]

What is that

[next orchid]

the padded armor

[vivid solar]

Example from his art?

[next orchid]

all his jacks look like this

[vivid solar]

The dude fighting with Edward?

[next orchid]

yeah

also holy shit i just realized i read this random ass battle in Polydore Vergil's history

"So after it began to be daylight, the alarm being sounded on either party, the battle was begun: first they fought with arrows from afar, and afterward with swords hand to hand."

[vivid solar]

Me when the Baron's actually the King

[runic holly]

Boss next to the baron

[vivid solar]

Would be cool if knights and the baron wore liveries with their arms on them

In game

[void stream]

The ancient "Roman guards" of the tomb of Jesus Christ were depicted as contemporary infantrymen of the Kingdom of Hungary. Church of Hronský Beňadik (built around the 1470s)

and look there's a lobster!

https://tenor.com/view/lobster-funny-lobster-lobster-activity-lobster-walking-in-the-dark-lobster-on-camera-gif-14497539286315688273

[next orchid]

15th century lober no way

[dusty orbit]

is this period accurate

[tiny valve]

Bulwark mentionned!

[dusty orbit]

I hear the weather is guesmand is wonderful this year.

[tiny valve]

It's been a long time I've played tho 😔

[solar cargo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKAv-DHAxgQ&ab_channel=Skallagrim The Most Overlooked Peasant's "Sword"

[fleet junco]

wear some cuises brah

[dusty orbit]

i have a chainmail skirt but it isn't showing for some reason

who needs cuises, just move your leg out the way

[vocal vale]

real

[terse bronze]

cuisses

[fleet junco]

cuises

[vocal vale]

why his halberd look like an inflatable

[fleet junco]

so he can hit you with it

[vivid solar]

If I'm not getting hit with sharp steel I don't wanna be hit at all

[scenic breach]

nice kit by whom is that halberd cause i´ve been looking for good polearms a while

[weak halo]

It looks like foam

[zenith forge]

Same

[sullen flower]

Where are the long messers at? Short would be cute too... ok the felchon is a messer right?

[silver heart]

falchions are not messers no

[sullen flower]

Is it because of the handle construction? I feel that would be the only thing that makes it so

[silver heart]

falchions have a hilt with a tang that runs through the crossguard, handle, and pommel while messer hilts have the scales on the handle riveted to a full tang

to my knowledge falchions were more of a western european thing popularized from the 13th to 15th centuries while the messer is more so a central european advent that came about in the early 15th century

[icy cloak]

Any spanish stuff??

[verbal bramble]

Yeh: Portugal, rather than Spain, but check out the Pastrana Tapestries, they are just one year off from the time period

[verbal bramble]

Nice find! Italian kit, I assume

[scenic breach]

it is

[next orchid]

(just an fyi, messer just means knife, which just means a single edged blade (by the 15th century), so functionally, it is a synonym for falchion in this context, which is an anglo-french term, or a synonym for cousteau or coustille etc.)

[next orchid]

the pavise looks german

[verbal bramble]

Hmm... Everything else about the kit looks italian to me (The brigandine looks similar to the Leeds brigandine which I think is from Italy, the billhook looks italian to me, the barbuta is very italian)

Do correct me if I am wrong

[next orchid]

its just random stuff thrown together i think lol

[verbal bramble]

Oh. That is a shame, then.

[next orchid]

im 90% sure the shield is from central europe both based on the painting style and the shield type itself (pavises with central ridges were, ironically, not common in italy, and probably not native)

[silver heart]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1093656525425352734/1164527546700927006/ThisCuhSoIntelligent.gif

[next orchid]

I will say messer can be useful for invoking a certain design as shorthand

But that shorthand is like saying tachi and meaning a type of Japanese sword

Actually kind of a bad example cuz tachi is a more technical term, but like dao in Chinese

Actually NVM cuz dao is too broad. U get what I mean

[lone osprey]

yeah it is
royal armouries
https://royalarmouries.org/collection/object/object-514
https://royalarmouries.org/collection/object/object-1264
german pavise and italian brig

[terse bronze]

that's in the royal armouries?

the sallet really ressemble that one

[terse sorrel]

Yes.

[vocal vale]

very neat piece

[terse sorrel]

My favorite pieces don't fit the timeline, but those are the ones that did, if I recall correctly.

There was more in another section, not sure how many pictures of it I got.

[vocal vale]

feel free to share the others in #1287593473217790034 #1287593500208005200