references♥_1450-1470

[vocal vale]

hell yeah

[robust tendon]

good shit

[vocal vale]

iirc a couple sources mention leather hoquetons which wouldnt make much sense when compared to an aketon

but the leather hoquetons cause their own confusions

[toxic breach]

Thats a Flemish MS

By fouquet

Foquet

however u sepll it!

spella

rghhfgf

[prisma raven]

https://www.e-codices.unifr.ch/en/doubleview/bge/fr0189/238v/

[toxic breach]

Holy drip!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[vocal vale]

dismissive hand wave

[toxic breach]

Me upon seeing such drip!!!!!

[prisma raven]

baldric belts are peak

[toxic breach]

They could add this to the game but I'm not going to force anything on the devs.

[prisma raven]

https://flic.kr/p/Md2CpT

https://flic.kr/p/Md38E6

St. Sigismund; Master of the Polling Panels; 1450; 1460; Freising; Germany; Bavaria; Diocesan Museum.

[toxic breach]

Sir BigNose

[vocal vale]

Leerärmel !!

[prisma raven]

what?

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/437491

[vocal vale]

rudiblock brought up a german fashion encyclopedia that refers to the jackets with the slit elbows as leerärmel

the other day

[prisma raven]

oh nice, I didn't know that

[robust tendon]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/42027535271/in/album-72157602432104851

[prisma raven]

Painting in Church of St Stephan in Obermontani, Morter, Italy (1420-1430)

[prisma raven]

neat

[vocal vale]

he got that shit on tho

[terse bronze]

targe/target is a french word btw

banger

[next orchid]

Giornea = Italian
Hoqueton = French
Coat = English

[fleet junco]

I think it sounds better italian

[sullen charm]

yoo how can i be a mod

[toxic breach]

what is this message doing in references bro💀😭

[vocal vale]

you probably need to have a better understanding of the server (such as using the right channel for this question) first

[bitter ocean]

you gotta apply aswell when or if they open applications

[toxic breach]

Asking to be mod after 4 days of membership in the server is crazy

[bitter ocean]

okay i didint see that

[void stream]

Some references

[fleet junco]

Falling buffe...

[void stream]

oh and one more, this looks sick

ok the last one

[prisma raven]

Calatayud kettles my beloved

[void stream]

Beautiful

[empty shale]

im not sure where to put this, however i wanna know what even is this? if its against rules i can take it down

its just really goofy and i want more info on it

[robust tendon]

iirc they're just shields that would be wielded in duel settings

[void stream]

talhoffer dueling shields

[empty shale]

i love them so much

they are so goofy

[robust tendon]

not a field weapon at all, that much I know

[void stream]

there's even this version, looks more beautiful

[lone osprey]

whoa do you know which museum that intricate one in top right is from?

[empty shale]

i love this

[void stream]

and there's more

[empty shale]

are they designed to be as cumbersome as possible? cause they seem like they would be an absolute nightmare to use

[void stream]

they are designed to be uncomfortable to create a longer spectacle of a fight.

[prisma raven]

I don't actually know, sorry, the only thing I know is that it comes from Cordoba and is from the end of the 15th century.

[empty shale]

they are so ridiculous 💀

[fleet junco]

Theyre just pavises with spikes on em

[empty shale]

i love how everyone in medieval paintings always looks so content when they are being stabbed

dude has a spear in his gut and he just smiling

[toxic breach]

This is from the 13th century

[brave fractal]

oh

[toxic breach]

le sallet la plume

[terse bronze]

la sallade* la plume..

[toxic breach]

https://tenor.com/view/goat-wild-goat-siberian-ibex-siberian-ibex-gif-15542764060784666115

[toxic breach]

ring jackchain (and upper canon of vambrace held by jackchain)

doohickeys

c.1460-70

[vocal vale]

nifty

[next orchid]

No lol

The helmets from the Swiss chronicles are archaisms

The extant and the chronicle are 50 years away from each other

German art does something similar. Faux bascinet visors = shorthand for old

[fleet junco]

Can we have visoree barbutes

[next orchid]

jarvis, pull up that photoshopped image

[vocal vale]

that gave me a heart attack the first time i saw it

[fleet junco]

Nah... its that franken bascinet one

[next orchid]

gondor helmet

[fleet junco]

Maybe

[next orchid]

anyways god wills the defeat of anyone who takes art at face value every time, why does this server like doing that so much

[vocal vale]

most people here aren’t super well educated on the subject and just throw in whatever

[fleet junco]

They see it and media and want to see it in their favorite game

[next orchid]

im gonna post medieval art of amazons and say "look, boobplate is historically accurate" like every 4th redditor does

[vocal vale]

diagonal fluted arms from flanders and iberia

[fleet junco]

flanders?

[terse bronze]

flanders

where they speak flemish

mostly

[next orchid]

the land of bogs and basket weaver

[fleet junco]

I think ita cool

[terse bronze]

let's kill belgians btw

[vocal vale]

it was around modern day belgium and has some pretty unique looking armor sometimes, very ovular cuirasses and some earlyish close helms that show up as extant(s) and limitedly in the pastrana tapestries

[terse bronze]

or the absolute opposite of "art was very stylized thus cannot be used as a source"

probably more belgians online

[vocal vale]

first one is by a flemish artist and second one is usually attributed to flanders

left one has a different opening mechanism

now that i’m looking at it the left one is extremely weird

[next orchid]

i cant even see a mechanism

[vocal vale]

yeah i just noticed that i can’t pinpoint where tf it should actually move at

[next orchid]

add this to half sword

historically accurate as you can see

[terse bronze]

communism

[next orchid]

true

she bears the flag of the parisian communist league

[robust tendon]

i see

[toxic breach]

What is that first statue from

Like whats the full sculpture piece call

e

[vocal vale]

colegio de san gregorio

[lone osprey]

Wilhelmina should be added

[fleet junco]

👋👍

[lone osprey]

gucci knight

[lone osprey]

might be similar to the beauchamp ones?

the description of this one may also explain the pastrana one potentially

separate reinforcing bevor covering the lower edge of the visor, may be what is happening in the pastrana tapestry

[lone osprey]

facial animations reference

[toxic breach]

Three are amazing

[robust tendon]

Bout Psalter Hours Kb 79 K 11
C. 1420-1460

[toxic breach]

Crazy date range

[robust tendon]

dating is pretty wide yeah

another source claimed it was 1300-1400 lmao

i think this one’s more reasonable

I can’t seem to find it on the KB website though

[toxic breach]

Epical 100 year date range

[lone osprey]

I want modders to let me have a david v goliath mode

[robust tendon]

as in the MS itself

seems to not have a link anymore, i did however find a link to the pages

[robust tendon]

yeah i think that one can be safely ruled out

given the style of armor i think the 1420-60 date range is reasonable, 1460 may be pushing it though

i mostly posted it for the pollax though, i’ve not seen one like this in depictions before

[lone osprey]

yeah that thing is terrifying

youve got the spikes and the concussive force of the hammer

[robust tendon]

i think it counts as a “mal engine” but i’ve just learned what those are and I’m unsure what exactly counts as one

a mal engine is just “evil/deceitful device” and were frowned upon and often illegal in duels

[lone osprey]

checks out
looks pretty mal to me

[robust tendon]

though there is a 1430s english treatise that actually recommends them for a worship of arms

[next orchid]

a what

the "them" i mean

[robust tendon]

mal engines

i can link it if you like

[prisma raven]

Saint George, Bartolomeus Zeitblom, School of Ulm (c. 1470). Now in a private collection.

[silver heart]

what is that covering his groin and thighs?

[toxic breach]

A thingamajig of sorts

[prisma raven]

the garment over the maille?

[silver heart]

yes

[prisma raven]

probably just a type of jacket or jack

https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/15747139981/in/album-72157603168542128/

[verbal bramble]

Oh the first statue is beautiful, I love it. In a way, the arm fluting reminds me of Lorenz Helmschmied's work

[prisma raven]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/75710752@N04/10538116076/in/photostream/

[vocal vale]

this is really cool

[lone osprey]

Whoa that is interesting with that central tasset thing like the Master of the Legend of St Catherine depicts too

[lone osprey]

I know they appear a whole bunch in french and netherlandish art but hadnt seen a german depiction

[vocal vale]

the pieces of armor - just the ones that i know off the top of my head - that are included in game currently

for the record, i see 2 and 3 combined in a lot of photos from within the larger exhibit just not great photos

[lone osprey]

This is cool seems worth being a pinned message. Would love to see the refs for all smaller pieces added / other helmets too

[lone osprey]

Is this churburg? I really hope they add others from there

[silver heart]

talhoffer moment!!!

[silver heart]

silly armet

[fleet junco]

I wonder if we can make our own custom ornaments that we can put on our armets

[vocal vale]

i like it

[robust tendon]

i wish we got something like this first tbh

not an armet afaik but a close helm

not the biggest fan of the protruding visor on the one in game

[vocal vale]

yep

monopivot

[robust tendon]

i originally thought this thingmabob was a sallet cause of the skull

[vocal vale]

from what i remember it was converted from a sallet into the close helm

[robust tendon]

neat

[haughty creek]

If memory serves, the museum that stores it classifies it as a close Sallet

[robust tendon]

this thing

it calls it a close helm

not sure if you mean this one though, however this one was what the repro abocve is based off of

[vocal vale]

once it gets into having an integrated bevor like that i stop considering it a sallet

[robust tendon]

a close helm is defined by the opening mechanism right?

with a sallet you just take it off, ofc

[robust tendon]

hence the "close helm" name

[vocal vale]

genuinely idk if its super widely considered that way, i consider it that way because i realized the differences in form and function in a discussion about what a "bicoque" is one time

some museums call close helms armets

armet = hinged openings at the cheeks, visor pivot
grand bascinet = visor pivot (or no visor), separate bevor pivot
close helm and early close helms ("bicoques") = one pivot for both visor and bevor

[robust tendon]

i think that's a pretty good definition

there's no other way to define a close helm besides the opening mechanism imo, otherwise I'd just consider them armets

[vocal vale]

it also helps when people cant describe """bicoques""" (gosh i hate using this but unfortunately its like the only widely known term) as anything other than "weird looking armet"

a lot of artistic depictions seem to give credence to the idea that they were worn with gorgets that appear more often way later, i think dierk hagedorn's close helm is the best to represent the idea

[robust tendon]

i never saw the gorget he has, interesting

[robust tendon]

what's wrong with the term bicoque?

[vocal vale]

french name
primarily german helmet
in the only source its used it is described as something similar to a bascinet with facial protrusions, some interpret it like an armet and some interpret it like a barbute

i lean towards barbute

[white fulcrum]

GAHH I HATE TERMINOLOGY!!! with armets you only lift the visor and with close helmets you lift the whole thing?? keep forgetting the distinction between the two

[robust tendon]

i see, so it just doesn't work for what is often called a bicoque

[white fulcrum]

oh wait we're talking about that rn

[robust tendon]

so a sallet then

[robust tendon]

speaking of terminology i kinda like great sallet more than I do barbute..

[white fulcrum]

ok going by what we've previously stated bicoques just seem like armets no?

[vocal vale]

bicoques open differently, like close helms from the 1500s

[white fulcrum]

great sallet sounds cool

[vocal vale]

armets have hinges

[toxic breach]

oh my goodness i saw this in class this ewek ...

week

[robust tendon]

since a barbute and a sallet are the same helmet "phenotype"

[vocal vale]

baller

[white fulcrum]

hinges to open the cheek plates yeah

[robust tendon]

calling them separate things can cause a misconception like a barbute is something else when it is just a larger sallet

i used to think a barbute was not a sallet

cause they were always referred to as different things

[toxic breach]

oh yeah well how about SOME OF THIS

[fleet junco]

The eyes are there

[vocal vale]

i believe these lend a lot of credit to the idea that they were at least worn with something equatable to a "gorget"

you can see the ridge where the actual helmet ends on the second one but i cant recall if there is maille below it

[vocal vale]

this one is quite similar with the same little-to-no articulation at the neck

[toxic breach]

This foolish boy cannot articulate his neck. LOL!

Small little foolish boy

[robust tendon]

i think it's certain they were worn with gorgets

or something equatable to them, as you said

unrelated but cool

[vocal vale]

one is attached to a single pivot (close helm) and one is attached to a separate pivot (grand bascinet)

it looks very intentional to me the way they are drawn but it could be a coincidence

gorget . .

you can see that his is actually a hinge (armet) but i still think the concept applies very well to early close helms whatwith how many of them are very clearly drawn with way too much neck to be comfortable or practical unless it was separate

[silver heart]

that goes so hard holy balls

[lone osprey]

I assume the decoration is imitating a forked beard

Thats what i want it to be anyway

[lone osprey]

this explanation helps me the most. great way of explaining a close helm here too.

I honestly wasnt sure what the difference between grand bascinet and bicoque was prior lol

[lone osprey]

this is where I was thinking
am I crazy lol? only place that seems to make sense

[thorny otter]

Werner Schodoler Chronicle

Swiss guy cosplaying the stamford bridge berserker

[silver heart]

yes! figured we could use some more in period swiss stuff and this piece very much stood out to me because of said depiction of rudolf stussi

[thorny otter]

I have a sweet spot for this sort of mix of early 16th cent style while also trying to look a bit aged. But even so, I like the tsachtlan probably the most of the swiss chronicles

[sullen charm]

flashy armor i found out of nowere , anyone know the armor type ?

[toxic breach]

kastenbrust

[vocal vale]

did you find it out of nowhere in this very channel haha

i love it too, a lot

the helmet is very awesome and similar to jean I of burgundy's effigy helmet

[latent drift]

anybody have a higher quality image of this armet?

[empty shale]

does anyone know of any nice pictures that would make for a nice desktop? i've been using this but i kinda hate it tbh

[toxic breach]

Haven't seen many resources on the helmet specifically. But this is the source

[latent drift]

thank you

so i looked it up i belive it may be fictional

as i found things with the same art style that are completely fictional helmets

of course i could be wrong

[toxic breach]

Yes, it's fictional

That manuscript segment is the only instance I think it ever appears ... otherwise it's real-life counterpart would be some bicoque

[toxic breach]

extremely hard

[latent drift]

i see

[toxic breach]

WAOW

La hire et poton

[next orchid]

Big bascinet/armet with tournament visor

[terse bronze]

the lads

[toxic breach]

La hire et poton🔥

True

[terse bronze]

higher res

[toxic breach]

TRUE

White gloves funky

[next orchid]

Jean de Bueil called la hire the doctor in the science of war or something

Also apparently in battle he likes to say "close, close" (in reference to the formation) or something like that

Liked*

[toxic breach]

Dr. de Bueil.

[robust tendon]

https://www.khm.at/en/objectdb/detail/372852/?lv=detail

[robust tendon]

https://www.khm.at/objektdb/detail/91122/?offset=45&lv=list

https://www.khm.at/objektdb/detail/91116/?offset=39&lv=list

[desert robin]

what sort of brigandine is this one specifically? also is that a bishop's mantle?

asking because i own the splinted arms/greaves as seen, but i want to get an accurate look

And i assume the tunic underneath is just any run-of-the-mill gambeson. Could an aketon also work?

[robust tendon]

i wouldn't trust kcd for accurate armor info

i think that's just a brigandine, no specific type

[desert robin]

And could anyone tell me what helmet would best work for this kit? his is just a bascinet, but I assume many visors would work

yeah i'm well aware, probably will avoid the bishops mantle lol

[robust tendon]

a lot of the time you would not wear a gambeson underneath

just like normal clothes/arming clothes

i think an aketon could maybe work though, it does coexist with plate

[desert robin]

aketon's lighter than a gambeson?

Since a gambeson in its own right is 'armor'

[robust tendon]

significantly

[desert robin]

Good to know!

[robust tendon]

1320-50

[desert robin]

Oh, someone somewhere else said that it's a "leed brigandine"

[robust tendon]

some more aketons

as you can see they're much unlike standalone gambesons/jacks

[desert robin]

yeah the plates alone will do the job of protecting.. probably best to keep it as light as humanly possible

aketon it is

[robust tendon]

1350-1400

not sure if you'd call this an aketon though...I think it's just a pourpoint

https://youtu.be/zGl_UXc9HIE?si=oCvYRymetyjgQXeC&t=32 there is also this, not sure if he gave a specific reference but I think it's more or less accurate

[fleet junco]

Rope helmet

[vocal vale]

yeah just get a normal aventail for your bascinet

a klappvisor would probably work best with the kit since it has splint, his helmet for some reason has mounting for both kinds of bascinet visors

[desert robin]

i'm avoiding the leeds brigandine as it's more of a 15th century creation, will stick more to a coat of plates/corazinna

i've been wanting a klappvisor so that's good

[robust tendon]

yeah i've seen ones like it in later 15th century depictions, not early like what kcd is "trying" to do

ngl it seems like kcd devs just heard "brigandines are 15th century" and just ran with it

[desert robin]

Yeah seems like the 3d modellers searched up brigandine and chose the first option

[fleet junco]

Looks like those would hurt

[fleet junco]

Whª

[toxic breach]

Wwhy does he need a strap

On his cuirass

?

[fleet junco]

Maybe

[toxic breach]

Wth...

[terse bronze]

Greatbascinet.. bevors.. to only name these..

[toxic breach]

https://tenor.com/view/write-this-down-taking-notes-take-notes-gif-17975847

[civic glade]

Man i wonder

Which would you say you guys hate more- kcd or buhurt

[toxic breach]

What do you wonder fellow?

Tell me

Buhurt is gayer I think

I never played KCD yet I simply dislike it due to commodification of the "cuman helmet"""

[civic glade]

Oh man, the cumans in kcd are a huge anachronism

[toxic breach]

Which actually isn't strictly Cuman; and that commodificataion infuriates me because such helmets were also found in my homeland......

It makes me crash TF out

[civic glade]

Its so bad that I’ve actually seen an academic article written about how the cumans in that game are a racist orientalist caricature and anachronistic in the highest

[toxic breach]

Some real

[civic glade]

You have to fuck up bad for a academics to come out and write about your game

[terse bronze]

kcd

buhurt itself is just a vaguely historical inspired sport that doesn't pretend to be LE HISTORY !!!! (ppl do tho for some reasons)

but kcd, while being a pretty good game built its reputation and advertisement on how awesome sauce accuratino it was

[civic glade]

kcd is actually a really well made immersive sim rpg, i loved the writing and the atmosphere and the scenery, its a beautiful game.

Its just not like, very authentic

To that end as sympathetic as i am to how developers have to consider audience expectations when they’re making an experience meant to immerse, it honestly seems like they didn’t actually try that hard to make it super authentic so much as they ran with whatever they turned up

[toxic breach]

https://tenor.com/view/goat-wild-goat-siberian-ibex-siberian-ibex-gif-15542764060784666115

[civic glade]

(There are broader critique to be made of ‘authenticity’ as a constructed experience based more on what a viewer expects than what is closer to historical consensus, but its 1 am)

[civic glade]

https://tenor.com/view/monkey-gorilla-confused-stunned-shocked-gif-14800587028507499766

[toxic breach]

Heart on fire

[robust tendon]

yeah this is pretty much my problem with it

[robust tendon]

buhurt is ugly, that's about the only thing I dislike

i think it looks pretty fun otherwise

[void stream]

small buhurt be like

[lone osprey]

a really nice high res reproduction of the louvre san romano. somehow the france national library's blog gets to do high res reproductions of works from much stingier institutions like the louvre, musee chantilly, musee cluny

wonder if it was intentional for this guy to have one armored and one unarmored leg

gilt borders nice to look at

[lone osprey]

trying to make a photo list of all the bits of equipment made for the game but like posted by the devs isolating each piece. anybody know if they posted their full harness as WIP?

[next orchid]

Yes and it shows up on a crossbowman in another painting of the same set

Shows up elsewhere too

Uccello was just one of those artists who knew what he was doing, so the art is very good

[lone osprey]

damn, true never even noticed

[lone osprey]

do you remember where? be cool to see, I never saw it outside of this

[next orchid]

some other esoteric italian paintings/frescoes that are in 440p or something lol

[silver heart]

yoooo i had no clue they had posted all of this! cinquedeas are confirmed lesss goooo

[verbal bramble]

I know I am very late to this conversation, but yeah, I could get you some images from the inside of a few elbow pieces, as I have some files with such images

[lone osprey]

Lol thats just the mouse cursor so i have no idea whether theyre adding it to the game as a usable weapon but it would be sad if they left it out

[silver heart]

OHHHHH

i’m a goober

more halberds as well!

[robust tendon]

Statue of Roland, Verona Cathedral 1120-1160

much much earlier but shows things like the other depiction was done for a while

[void stream]

Pavise my beloved

[fleet junco]

Thats a reall skinny one

Id like to see that one in game ngl

[vocal vale]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/_pdcdmJCg3c

[bright token]

Anyone know what the 3 holes on the poelyn for?

From good ol Helmschmid harness for emperor Maximilian I (I think but im probably wrong)

[fleet junco]

Attach the greave to the cuisse maybe

[bright token]

Got it, thank you for the answer

[lone osprey]

shot from another pair from another max armour

can see through the holes for the original on this angle

[lone osprey]

erm greave to poleyn*

[fleet junco]

death

🪦

[terse bronze]

damn was about to point it out..

too fast..

[terse bronze]

minor anatomical mistake..

[fleet junco]

Its over

[lone osprey]

thats 30 lashings

[lone osprey]

thats cool. always wondered how they would affect mobility. looks great too

[terse bronze]

Bayerische Söldner 1468

[next orchid]

"Armour or scapulatia, which come on the shoulders and shoulderblades, should sometimes be arranged in the corslet towards the spine of the back. But not in the universally used way which cover the entire shoulderblades, and there one is put on the other and they also continuously come together and are hindered in such a way that weight without usefulness results."

• Pietro Monte

large pauldrons in the general sense limit arm movement upwards and inwards

[lone osprey]

that does make sense. hard to tell if the guy in the video was struggling while lifting his arms up but his movement upwards certainly looked impeded like Monte says. it would be cool to see if someone illustrated what he means by 'arranged in the corslet towards the spine'

[next orchid]

as in the pauldrons go towards the middle of the back probably, rather than the small pauldrons ("spaulders")

monte is referring to how when the arms move, the tips of the pauldrons will touch each other, overlap, etc. and be a general annoyance, which u can see in the video

[lone osprey]

ah fair enough I thought there may have been a preferable way of configuring them that he was prescribing

[next orchid]

the preferable way is to not have them cover the whole shoulderblade. he likes german pauldrons, but says they still cover too much of the back and not enough of the front

he also wants the pauldrons to have padding underneath

"The germans use these spaulders [spilatia] well enough, except that behind they are too broad and in front not well covered."

oh also for anyone wanting to check out the passage, Forgeng mistakes the crescent to be a besagew

[lone osprey]

By this do you interpret it as a lining to the pauldrons themselves or something separate worn beneath them

[next orchid]

he says they should be "raised" (so the pauldrons dont sit right on top of the shoulder) so that maceblows dont cause so much harm. he says almost verbatim the same thing about the gauntlets in the directly prior sentence, and he wants some wool to be placed under the said gauntlets, so it is likely he wants the same thing for the pauldrons. i interpret this to be a part of the doublet personally.

[silver heart]

god i wish i knew half about what you guys do regarding armor😭

[fleet junco]

I think those shields should be in halfsword

[next orchid]

funny

add the pavises that have spikes on them so that u can throw them on the floor and have willie impale his feet

[fleet junco]

I think

[sudden iron]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQOcFAy2FgA

[lament wolf]

https://youtu.be/wFvV8PbY08A?si=RpRrL_h-F439OTOD

in this video the gun fails to penetrate the helmet, but the spike pierces right through. This has entirely changed my perspective on armor. Sure this armor was probably cheap, but that does make me wonder if some medieval armor was even cheaper?

Sure it’s cheap larp armor but can we say all medieval armor was quality?

[coarse mango]

No

Someone out there was definitely scammed out of quality armor

[verbal bramble]

Same, it is outright impressive how much some of the folk here know about armor, where do they get their sources?

[verbal bramble]

Not to mention, munitions grade armor and lower quality armor meant for lower class soldiers in general

[coarse mango]

Yeah

[thorny otter]

1. social media are good source of ideas where to look, but pretty bad as endgame of research

2. institutions like museums often have digitalized inventaries to check on. MET in NY and Royal Armouries in Leeds do really good job at that.
   3)books. There is astounding number of pretty good books on the subject. Very good starting point I think is Peter Kalkman's Identifying Armour: https://spa-uitgevers.biedmeer.nl/Webwinkel-Product-842689104/Identifying-Armour.html

3. various thesis, freely accessible on the subject, are out there. Matthias Goll's PhD thesis is impressive in it's sheer scale and comes with amazing number of pictorial stuff.

4. other sources of direct research. Nowadays it's rather simple to get to digitalized chronicles, photos of altarpieces, online repositories of effigies and brasses and whatnot. In fact, there is so much it became really hard for me to keep track recently.

[verbal bramble]

Thank you, kind person

[thorny otter]

You are welcome.
https://archiv.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/volltextserver/17203/

[fleet junco]

Ip grabber

[verbal bramble]

I am taking a look at the book you sent me, I am a bit concerned about 1490-1500 being missing, as I feel I could miss out on something interesting

[thorny otter]

That's quite probable. However I am not sure if there is another sort of general entry type of book currently easily available

Obviously i might be missing something

[verbal bramble]

And as for social media, what do we say about Pinterest? I know it depends what you already know and you gotta know what you're looking at and looking for, but I am curious how good or bad it is

[flat trail]

no one would wear butted mail tho

[thorny otter]

I use it time to time, but as you say, you kinda need to know what are you looking for and how it looks...
There are some people who do amazing job in keeping their middle ages boards

https://cz.pinterest.com/tbiliter/

https://pl.pinterest.com/malinaopatowiec/

https://cz.pinterest.com/aboerbront/

https://cz.pinterest.com/macs_shop/

[verbal bramble]

Hmm... Actually, would Lorenz Helmschmied's work (the style of Sigismund's and Maximillain's harnesses, in particular) be missing on the book? He interests me in particular, prob my favorite historical armorer

[thorny otter]

Andrea Carloni also did pretty cool work in photos on his Flickr, includes much of museums around Europe:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/andrea_carloni/albums/

[flat trail]

the breastplate is badly made, he even says the steel is low quality and there is no gambeson/armet/chainmail underneath

[thorny otter]

Similiarly, Carl Koppeschaar: https://www.flickr.com/photos/98015679@N04/albums/

[thorny otter]

let me check

[flat trail]

so its just pure entertainment

(he didnt claim its anything else too)

[verbal bramble]

Hmm... Do we even know the thickness of it? That is pretty important

It could be like, I dunno, 1mm thick

[lament wolf]

My point isn’t “plate armor isn’t that strong” it’s that “not all plate armor is quality”

I think it’d be interesting if lower tier armor could fail to weapons built to defeat armor like maces and spikes

[flat trail]

in that case yes thats true

it goes for chainmail and other types of armour aswell

[lament wolf]

In Half Sword

[flat trail]

agreed, but Idk how you implement that even, seems like insane amounts of work

[thorny otter]

it's there, discussed briefly. But if this is your main point of interest, maybe more focused book might be worth your time and investment? Like Chaz Kirchoff's book on Thunsche Skizzenbuch (https://boydellandbrewer.com/9781837650439/the-thun-hohenstein-album/), or maybe the catalogue from The Last Knight exhibition in MET (https://www.metmuseum.org/met-publications/the-last-knight-the-art-armor-and-ambition-of-maximilian-i), or maybe some larger work?
https://boydellandbrewer.com/9780851157818/tournaments/
or
https://archive.org/details/isbn_0713407298
or like
https://www.amazon.com/Arms-Armor-Medieval-Knight-Illustrated/dp/0517103192

On the armourers specifically, there is The armourer and his craft by Ffoulkes, but it's more likely to find a scan or PDF since it's a 1912 book...

[flat trail]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzNAFwAyi1s

[lament wolf]

I mean, it’s sort of a thing already. The one piece of chainmail in the game can be cut through with enough force, but it deflects most cuts. It can be stabbed through, but requires a little more effort. In theory plate could act the same but just way harder. Blunt weapons already do this in a way. I’m pretty sure cheaper armor doesn’t defend you against blunt damage as much as high tier armor does.

[flat trail]

knightly hardened plate armour is peak

but for example, in dequitem's video talking about his "peasants vs knight" vid, he mentioned that a poleaxe hit dented his breastplate

[flat trail]

definetly

[vocal vale]

armor rarely if ever dents enough to hurt you via dent

[flat trail]

after decent quality armour its the gambeson defending you the most from blunt impact im pretty sure

[flat trail]

yes, it didnt do anything to him, except giving him pain

[vocal vale]

pierre pelerin notably was smacked consecutively by 4 guys with hammers and his harness dented so much that it “was apparent” but he was unharmed

[flat trail]

and in that video he was supposed to be a "peasant" so the plate was considerably lower quality than knightly plate

[verbal bramble]

Oh that's a lot, thank you

[flat trail]

yeah, people overestimate blunt impact when it comes to well made plate armor

[verbal bramble]

I assume we're talking about an iron cuirass, not a hardened steel one, as far as I know hardened steel is very difficult to dent (if at all possible)

[flat trail]

I would say its quite well reflected in the game, where pretty much only the hits to the head with blunt impact are effective in the highest tier

the small wooden board shield might even be too effective at hitting the helmet like that, but Im neither an historian or expert so I wouldnt know

[lament wolf]

Yeah most body dents wouldn’t do anything

They usually gave the chest room too, so I don’t think broken ribs were common

[next orchid]

Not at the sides

They're well fitted in general

Anyways striking the armored torso isn't the move in general, since they can easily turn into or away from the blow

[silver heart]

hence why swords are still the better option for armored combat compared to something like a mace, getting stabbed hurts a hell of a lot more than getting hit around, especially if you’re getting struck while in a harness of plate

[lament wolf]

I think if you were to hit someone in plate with a blunt weapon you should aim for the back of the neck am I wrong

[terse bronze]

I'd feel more comfortable with a sword imma be real

[mild yacht]

yap

[silver heart]

you’ve also got the pommel and cross to work with for a blunt striking capacity

[vocal vale]

would be good

[mild yacht]

hi

[vocal vale]

this is not a channel for discussion

if

of outside affairs m

[mild yacht]

huh stay on topic

[lament wolf]

I’d prefer some sort of warpick to try and hit weak points tbh

Especially like back of the legs or something. Depends on the armor.

[terse bronze]

Swords are better

Way more polyvalent

And look cooler

And everyone know you win your duels by being more dripped out that your opponent

[lament wolf]

It depends on the armor

[terse bronze]

Pollaxes and swords are just so good

Love those mf

Respect to any pollaxes and swords who are reading this

[silver heart]

war picks, maces, etc. are best wielded when on horseback, the additional momentum into the swing provided by the galloping of a horse as well as the ease of access to the craniums of enemies makes for a deadly combination

hence why there’s not really many treatises discussing how they are supposed to be utilized given you’d mostly only see them used in a mounted context

[next orchid]

short heavy 4 lb fauchion my beloved

[toxic breach]

THE ENDLESS PLACKART STRAP

[next orchid]

armorers like to leave them long so that they can be snipped but lol

i dont know if anyone would need that amount

[toxic breach]

well I would

[next orchid]

moot anyways, since the sword was the sidearm of the man at arms overwhelmingly, although axes show up too (esp in the 14th c.)

any justification is post hoc

[next orchid]

they can also do some cool things like smack away the enemy's sword

[silver heart]

indeed

[silver heart]

real and true!

[toxic breach]

sigma boy

[next orchid]

just realized i fucked up the couters in my drawing

to be fair it was all from memory

[toxic breach]

they look alright

more German

but sigma

[next orchid]

should still cut open on the inside lol

#i hate drawing armor

[flat trail]

also, maces and other blunt "instruments" make it way easier for you to capture an armoured opponent since you can just knock him out on a battlefield

[silver heart]

indeed and given knights were high value prisoners for ransoms and such and well, yeah, best to just bonk em and tie em on up

[fleet junco]

I wish they invented a weapon that could hurt someone at a long distance without you getting hurt

[tepid edge]

if you set a knight on fire, will parts of his armor slowly come off as the straps holding them together get burned?

[fleet junco]

I think all of the lining, cloth, maile and leather wpuld come together as a glue and hold the frame in one piece

[sturdy lily]

What the hell

[terse bronze]

@clever bramble quick get the gift card before someone else!!

[clever bramble]

Damn now my phone is bricked!

[next orchid]

Firstly, ur apt to kill him, secondly, how are u supposed to bring him around

[severe loom]

1325-1330

[void stream]

gorgeous sallet

[rocky sand]

Quesstion for the smart people. Does a bevor act like a neck brace? because i imagine having a stabilised head vs a non stabilised head would make blunt weapons do a different amount of damage to the head.

[fleet junco]

Yes

[raven kindle]

We need this:

[terse bronze]

We do need a white tabletop to showcase weapons on

I agree

[silver heart]

would de vaudreys foot combat armor be too late after the established timeframe to post as a reference here?

[next orchid]

for the ones attached to the cuirass, the head floats, so it is not stabilized

[vocal vale]

i think it’s a little too representative of later styles and aesthetics to make it in game

[next orchid]

its 1485

which honestly idk why devs did 1450-1470 and not 1470-1490 lol

[vocal vale]

i like the former more

[next orchid]

yes but i feel half the stuff in this game is late 1460s lol

seem to me to prefer the later period stuff

[silver heart]

i’m more privy to the latter but i don’t dislike the established timeframe

[next orchid]

i do, because there's a large stylistic shift in central europe from 1450 to 1470 lol

[vocal vale]

tbh i don’t think there’s enough in game yet to place a judgement

[next orchid]

yes there is!

[silver heart]

anything that gets me closer to my beloved 16th century is a fav of mine

[vocal vale]

there is only one full harness

[next orchid]

i dont see how that contradicts my point

literally most of the helmets, the clothing even, the breastplates, etc.

dare i say even the weapons

[vocal vale]

in my opinion there is not enough in game yet to make a judgement on the distribution of items across the threshold of the game’s timeframe

you don’t have to agree

[toxic breach]

Hello bro

[silver heart]

some of the weapons actually surprised me in terms of how late they were utilized

[next orchid]

they should add grandpappy's hosen and doublet

[silver heart]

such as this stylization of halberd (if i’m remembering one of the halberds posted by the devs correctly)

[next orchid]

the halberd as we know it is 1490s (i think late 1480s?)

havent open my hafted weapons book by whats his name

[next orchid]

this one becomes an artistic device in german lands in the early 16th c. for people with older looking stuff

so bohemians, french, english i think

[silver heart]

i figured as much because to my knowledge this style was mostly utilized in the late 14th and early 15th centuries

[next orchid]

there are better examples but i cant remember

theyre the dominant halberd shape until 1500~

[silver heart]

really? that’s quite neat, thanks for lmk!

[next orchid]

yeah

u get some funny transitional shapes too

deeply socketed ones that look like the old ones iirc

in switzerland i think

[next orchid]

also for older periods in general

(this is why people who say "look hur dur they depict everything as if it was current to them" are dumb)

[silver heart]

i’m pretty sure the one on the right is the one that’s in kcd

which always seemed odd to me

[next orchid]

havent touched kcd much

only played it at friend's house

kcd has a ton of anarchronistic stuff

wouldnt be a problem if they didnt market their game on "omg... its historically accurate!!"

[silver heart]

i remember mentioning it in the discord to no avail

[next orchid]

maybe its trying to be the one on the left! i dont know the weapons of bohemia at this time though, think this shape is mostly towards the west

dont quote me on that though

not a typology guy

[silver heart]

yeah now that i look at it more it seems in many aspects geared towards the left

[vocal vale]

yeahh

[silver heart]

this part in particular reminds me of the example on the left but i can’t help but see the blade shape of the right one

i might just be a goober tho

[turbid shadow]

https://x.com/Halfsword_game/status/1881100675750494373 have la wooden table

Half Sword -- PLAYTEST OPEN! (@Halfsword_game) on X

Working on something interesting

#HalfSword #UnrealEngine #gaming #gamingpc #gamedev #indiegame #medieval #Sword

X · Jan 19, 2025, 10:05 PM

[vocal vale]

https://tenor.com/view/jimmy-g-jimmy-butler-butler-reaction-senorclatticus-gif-7603023078686875221

[silver heart]

literally me

[bright token]

https://www.instagram.com/der_kriegsknecht_zu_landshut/p/DFIVpVQInRa/?img_index=1 I hope this is alright to share on this channel

I really like his renactment stuff 😄

[toxic breach]

Fella

[fleet junco]

Hes brown

[peak chasm]

dave mustaine in the 15th century

[robust tendon]

good shit

[bright token]

I like this axe

It’s not a halberd right?

[robust tendon]

I think it counts

halberd/vouge (iirc they just mean blade on stick)

[bright token]

Yeah, one just look sorta like an axe and the other is basically sword on long stick lol

[sullen charm]

we need big stick

i need a big stick to hit people

[simple wadi]

thats what i suggested for tier 0

instead of a knife

[sullen charm]

yes

big stick plz

[midnight wadi]

isn't that like a Bardiche?

[terse bronze]

polearms and their classifications amarite

looks to be a french ms so vouge fits perfectly ! 👍

[midnight wadi]

yes

even spears has a classification

i often consider a axe with this profile to be a bardiche

[vocal vale]

everything is a halberd

or a glaive, or a voulge

[next orchid]

guisarme

axe

anyways its another antique scene

look, burgundian armor. must be a burgundian axe too

[terse bronze]

i kill you

[silver heart]

spiky elbow:3

[toxic breach]

flower :))

[steep marten]

https://youtube.com/shorts/MT2mn2Gb9RY?si=tiy283ng76f2UGmn

It didn’t link right 😔

[scenic acorn]

i'd love to this kind of armor

[next orchid]

skull emoji 😔

[robust tendon]

not relevant to half sword's regions

[lone osprey]

relevant 👆

[lone osprey]

oh man I love tassels

and fringing
I want to see these things with physics

[silver heart]

i adore the pollaxe in the second photo

[empty shale]

honestly all i want is a big stick

[terse bronze]

haha le stick le funny bonk

[golden widget]

Maybe in a future installment/dlc, but we're focusing on western Europe rn.
But ngl I'd like a mongol/rus/turk dlc/game. That would be dope

[thorny otter]

that was a lot of fun

[terse bronze]

I bet ! Btw can you please post some pictures of your sallet ? (the current one not the reenactorism black and white one)

[thorny otter]

I can't the current one is not ready yet 😄

The one at torneo is Elthien's personal piece

[terse bronze]

Ohhh damn i thought

[terse bronze]

You got some pics of what your sallet gonna look like?

guh

so hot

[thorny otter]

Sneak peek from thursday. Its almost done

[prisma raven]

https://www.museunacional.cat/en/colleccio/calvary/vergos-group-pau-vergos/024153-000

[silver heart]

@terse bronze where do ya get a lot of these photos from?

[terse bronze]

facebook

[silver heart]

ah cool cool, mind sharing which pages?

[terse bronze]

https://www.facebook.com/famaleonis
https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100087977568823

just these two out of the top of me head

[silver heart]

much appreciated!

[void stream]

source: BNF Français 376 Pèlerinage de vie Humaine

[toxic breach]

wizard hat

[jaunty sundial]

Idk if medieval times had them but something similar to a bo staff? I love knocking the willies unconscious with the handle of spears and other long weapons but stab them on accident so even like a long blunt stick, I think it’d be cool, maybe not idk

[silver heart]

quarterstaff

[jaunty sundial]

Yes ty

[verbal bramble]

There is such a thing, which is the short staff (quarterstaff if you must) as written by George Silver... But that specific resource is way out of period as Silver's book "Paradoxes of Defense" was written in 1599, more than a century after the time period the game takes place.

Having said that, shepherd's crooks were much older than both the game's time period or the medieval period, having been used since much earlier, and were still in use by the 15th century as it is evidenced by woodcuts from the 17th century (which means that they must've kept using them in the 15th century), and shepherd's crooks were basically just a long staff a shepherd had.

Now, where would you find pictures of an original 1460s shepherd's crook? No clue, probably if you looked for paintings involving shepherds in the 15th century you could find it

This painting is from 1500-1530 (still out of period) and is the first thing I could find, but you can see what I'm talking about

[lone osprey]

they were definitely training with staves in the mid 15th century lol

[fringe sigil]

Are you an armorsmith?

[thorny otter]

nope, just armour buyer

[thorny otter]

the second one is the tournament I do in Bohemia, while the one in italy is https://www.facebook.com/torneiinarmatura

but it's true it's rather confusing

[wraith dew]

Rich boi lol

[fringe sigil]

I used to be friends with an armorsmith but he got banned and couldn’t find his account anymore I’m also friends with some Buhurt fighters 🦭

[fringe sigil]

Sassy pose

[bright token]

Fr

[wraith dew]

Question; Roughly how much did General Armor & Knights’ Plate Armor, change by 1500 in Europe compared to 1450-1470? ~ { Particularly within the Overall Quality, Thicccness, Capability of gaining flexibility without Sacrificing Protection, Ability to stop primitive hand cannon/Arquebus fire, and weight. }

Just wondering because I really wanna know what major breakthroughs were made, if any were made at all.

[silver heart]

where in europe do you mean in particular? england? france? iberia? the hre? italy?

[wraith dew]

General Western. ~ { Italy & Germany is about the cutoff. }

Though I wouldn’t mind if you mentioned General Europe!

[silver heart]

ik that, for the hre at least, there starts to be an adoption of a more transitional style between the likes of "high gothic" and "maximilian" styles around the turn of the 16th century that i've seen referred to as "proto-maximilian" or "schott-sonnenberg"

[wraith dew]

I have heard of “Schott-Sonnenberg”
to a degree.

[wraith dew]

Ahhhh I see, yeah the one on the right definitely looks a bit more ornate and super intricate

[silver heart]

this is a semi-decent example from the met of an italian harness from the turn of the 16th century, i say semi-decent tho because the helm is dated to around 1480

[wraith dew]

Cool!

[silver heart]

@wraith dew as to your og question tho, plate armor really reaches an almost zenith of craftsmanship by the beginning of the 16th century with higher quality steels allowing for especially durable and refined pieces, areas much more prone to attack like the breastplate had much more thickness to them as compared to other areas and doubly so thanks to the ever growing widespread nature of the arquebus on the battlefield but the armor overall was of course not universally immune, flexibility seems to also have a good deal of improvement with more articulation for the shoulders, elbows, etc. while the actual weight of the armor remained around the same range as before but the better weight distribution defo made it more manageable

[toxic breach]

bascinete la grande

[wraith dew]

@silver heart TYSM! ❤️‍🔥

[toxic breach]

I wonder why fellas only started doing articulation for joints commonly in 16c. when it appears as early as 1435 (st george and dragon by van der weyden)

Silly silly fellas.

[terse bronze]

https://ca.pinterest.com/macs_shop/voiders-of-plate/ hi

[toxic breach]

Hello young man

These are some sigma boy resources.

[terse bronze]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1227412021243281509/1277016913318252565/An-ymiHPgep77ImBB6iQWdQfqR7RWILWMrK8cmy1oYQmjPBN_VIBTtc3qGSZeOoowlbJPxWC0koOk0z9xdbV2b98.mp4?ex=679751ed&is=6796006d&hm=b13dcd95fb99f3ec607dabd1ff20b94058313e717b84e1f7f8b79743782ff556&Testing compression armpit on a milanese armor (model of Galeazzo d'Arco).
Several sources shows this kind of protection through XVth century. I could test it since several month and here are my observations :

For what purpose in the end ? According to sources, it is much a tournament equipment than a war gear (but the hypothesis is not excluded). The use on foot or on horse is questionable. I can manipulate a lance but it's a bit less easy than without any protection.

On a horse it could be use to gain a small additional chance to deflect a spear thrust from the small gapes, more than a mail voider. But all of this is theory and disccussions with jousters leads me to think that it was more common for a foot soldier.

No grip, no pinch or disagrement, I can bend to scratch my nose and even drink and eat properly.
The rivet could suffer from many and heavy uses. That's could mean a regular care or even change for some part.
Otherwise, it's a very interesting experiment here ! I'm glad to humbly present it to you and I will continue to test it.

The armor and device was made by Georges Jolliot !
Mail bolero made by Ironskin

[toxic breach]

I saw dis fellas armor on ig

[terse bronze]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/4682352770

[toxic breach]

His whole page is sigma

[silver heart]

i didn’t mean that articulation starts becoming a thing in 16th c, just that it sees an improvement, apologies if that’s what it seemed like

[toxic breach]

I didnt say u said that ....

[silver heart]

oh, i’m just being a goober then

[silver heart]

and np! i’m not as well informed as some of the other peeps here but i’d like to think ik a thing or two

[rough sail]

Would pictures of weapons from the MET be helpful at all here?

[terse bronze]

if they fit the timeframe ofc

@vocal vale quick get the 20$ gift!!!

[terse bronze]

this is a fake and doesn't fit the timeframe 😁

[terse bronze]

This is hot

[rough sail]

Attached times

[terse bronze]

well not a fake but a faulty reconstruction i must say

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2oTy6dYPPE

[rough sail]

The more you know

Unfortunately, those were the only pictures I got out of pure interest that weren't from the 16th century on

[rough sail]

After watching...on the face it doesn't appear too bad, but, again, the issue comes with the details

[lone osprey]

this is a really small excerpt from a gigantic analysis in Alan Williams 2003 book The Knight and the Blast Furnace (which I have no idea whether it has faulty methods or interpretation of evidence but Williams is extremely thorough):

"A bullet (being much larger than an arrow-point) would have to deliver over 990 J [A blow of between 25 and 40 J to the head in a car crash may be fatal]. If the knight was facing a Hussite opponent, however, then the latter's handgun might offer 1000 J. The knight should still be safe, but the margin of safety is very small, and by the end of the 15th century, would have disappeared."

so according to Williams, the ability to stop guns is virtually off the table around the turn of the 16th century with their use at relatively short distances and the increased firepower of arquebuses using corned powder.

this changes in the 16-17th centuries when A) armorers increase thickness in an attempt to bulletproof and B) there are examples of tactical changes with firearms sometimes being used at longer distances (potentially decreasing their ability to penetrate these armors on these occaisions)

in terms of overall quality in Italian armour of the 15th century and German (i.e. Augusburg and Innsbruck) armour at the turn of the 16th century, Williams points to several factors,
most importantly
-higher carbon steel with low slag content
-successful hardening through quenching and tempering

And
-quality control though armourers and city marks, the discounting of lower quality armors, and the prohibition of importing lower quality armorus
-for Germans specifically, finding a way to do both fire-gilding and hardening (he accuses Italians of giving up avoiding hardening in favour of fire-gilding)

[silver heart]

real and true!

kinda what i tried to explain just more in depth

[wraith dew]

@jerk.store, TYSM! ❤️‍🔥

This kinda fills in pretty much everything I was asking about to a pretty conclusive degree!

Only other thing I’d really still kinda wonder about is probably the effectiveness/lethality of All Metal Lances from Horseback Knights/General Heavy Cavalry going full-speed. As well as that of Flanged Maces and Morning Stars, against fully Armored Knights from the 1450’s~1510’s.
Same Time Period For The Cavalry BTW.

Around the same areas as previously mentioned.

[lucid briar]

a flanged mace wasn't really effective on foot and were mostly used for a display of status, disciplinary correction of misbehaving troops or citizens due to the fact that blunt force trauma was way less lethal than bladed weapons. heavy lances on horseback was deadly as we can see in some extant breastplates/helmets square holes made by a couched lance. If I remember correctly when 2 knights on horseback hit each other at full speed there is about 10'000lbs of force being exerted on each knight (these numbers were calculated with modern jousting equipment so real numbers might have been lower than 10'000lbs due to war horses being smaller in the late 15th century)

[wraith dew]

Interesting...

Also, DAMN! 10Klbs of force!?!?!?!?

[lucid briar]

yes, a car crash entirely located onto a knight have you seen videos of modern jousting? sometimes both knights fly off their horses. this is when bones break and concussions are given.

[wraith dew]

Only with Wooden-Lances unfortunately :c

[lucid briar]

nowadays for the spectacle the lances are pre broken to avoid severe bodily harm and possibly death

[vocal vale]

they were back then too to some degree

for the joust of peace at least

the splintering was half the fun

[lucid briar]

but sometimes both lances dont break and the result is always impressive

[wraith dew]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/845060787830521936.webp?size=64&name=KEKW

[lucid briar]

all fun and games till you get a splinter through the nose

[wraith dew]

Cough-Cough King Henry... Cough-Cough

Also, what about Morningstars from Horseback?

[vocal vale]

like on chains?

[wraith dew]

Or just Flanged-Maces as well

[vocal vale]

rarely if ever used

[wraith dew]

Nah More Solid Metal Morningstars

[vocal vale]

that’s just a different kind of mace

[wraith dew]

?

[lucid briar]

about same effectiveness as a mace but way less popular among knights

[vocal vale]

all of these maces are pretty equal in their lack of widespread primary usage

[wraith dew]

I thought there was always a difference between; Flanged Maces, Morningstars, And also Flails?...

[vocal vale]

well yeah but if you’re asking about the effectiveness of one over the other there’s not much difference

its a metal bludgeon all the same

[wraith dew]

I mean if I'm wrong I'm Wrong, but other than that it's always seemed aparent...

[lucid briar]

flails were used but to a very limited degree (basically only for fencing or judicial duels)

[vocal vale]

you’re not wrong it’s just they’re not different enough to consider one better than the other

imo

[wraith dew]

Yeah, more asking about just in general how effective the first two were.

[lucid briar]

do you know of dequitem?

[vocal vale]

only good for hitting the head and hands, limited range, not very good for grappling with

[wraith dew]

Both ON & OFF horseback btw

[vocal vale]

on horseback it’d be much more viable but still your range is one of your biggest mounted strengths

[wraith dew]

Love me some dequitem

[wraith dew]

True...

I'm imagining like a 1450's~1470's Knight Just rearanging somebody's dental plan with a Flanged-Mace or Morningstar from off of a horse.

[lucid briar]

a mace is a good choice on horseback but limited range and at the end of the 15th century most men at arms were heavily armoured so very limited effectiveness

[wraith dew]

Just fuckin';

CR-CRACK

[vocal vale]

i would still choose a sword any day over a mace though i am biased

[wraith dew]

Yeah, but mace is more nasty to get killed by because it is kinda slow...

However both will easily kill if you know where to aim.

[lucid briar]

A sword is designed to kill a mace is mostly for flexing your status in the 15th century

[wraith dew]

Really? I mean yeah; I guess I can see the increased amount of armor to where Men-At-Arms basically become Lightweight~Ultra-Light Knights?

[wraith dew]

True

I can kinda see that too...

More on the Ultra-Light if anything I'm guessing?

?

[lucid briar]

men at arms would be heavily armored but with varying quality of steel. those men at arms would be armed with polearms

[wraith dew]

Ah, I see: So kinda like Heavy-Infantry wearing Light~Medium Plate-Armor, but typically of a lesser quality steel most of the time they were fielded?. . .

Also sorry if it feels like I'm typing too fast for a response, please feel free to take your time!

[lucid briar]

at the end of the 15th century armor and metallurgy basically peaked for steel armor, the difference between a man at arms and a knight on rare occasions would only be status. knights on horseback would rarely charge directly into the men at arms they would try to flank to the weaker light infantry and use their swords, lances, maces, warhammers, etc. A blunt weapon always had its place on the battlefield but its not the ultimate anti armor weapon for the late 15th century, that title would go to the pollaxe and warhammer/horseman's pick.

[wraith dew]

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh, ok ok

Always kinda thought that the Heavy-Warhammer/Pole-Hammer Was better for blunt damage. Especially clockin' dudes.

~ { Clockin' = Knock out/knocked to the floor, or just stunned }

[lucid briar]

found this in my armor folder perfect for this

[wraith dew]

Are those two maces the same?

or diff?

Can't really tell

[lucid briar]

most all steel warhammers and maces were lighter than they appeared due to their hollow construction

[lucid briar]

same armor and mace! it was for sale a while ago really wanted to buy it but I was too unsure of the fit.

[wraith dew]

Oh wow they were actually hollow? I mean yeah that kinda checks out know that I think about it lmfao!

[wraith dew]

Both look awesome btw

[wraith dew]

Which was on sale? Mace or Armor?

[lucid briar]

the shaft was often a hollow steel tube with brazed in flanges

[wraith dew]

Or both??

[lucid briar]

both!

[wraith dew]

What's " 'brazed' in " mean?

[lucid briar]

Brazing was a sorth of early welding!

[wraith dew]

Ohhhhhhhh

"Seamus, c'mere. We needa Braze this Mace!"

[lucid briar]

they melted copper(I believe) into the slots if the mace and brazed the flanges and capped the hollow tube

[wraith dew]

Ohhh so the flanges themselves were the parts of the maces that were welded. Okay, and were they always welded?

Or just sometimes?

[lucid briar]

its a mix of copper and tin if I am not wrong

[wraith dew]

I see, I see...

[lucid briar]

flanges where loose and slots were cut into the shaft and then the mace was brazed together.

[wraith dew]

Interesting...

And obviously the styles could vary GREATLY, I'm guessing?

[lucid briar]

top view of another flanged maces brazed.

[lucid briar]

depends on the region it was built and the money the client would spend on it

[wraith dew]

True....

Probably more common in certain regions depending on the general economic state of enfranchisement/disenfranchisement, as well as armor thicccness, and just commonality, or quality too I'm guessing?

https://tenor.com/view/dog-knight-gif-21740939

[lucid briar]

very fancy flanged maces in the 15th century would be used by high ranking members of society to tell everyone who is in charge and as a disciplinary non lethal tool

[wraith dew]

Interesting!

[lucid briar]

so mostly reserved for military and nobles but the common soldier could make a mace out of a stick and a casted bronze headfor very cheap, it would not be very common because its way more simple to get a cheap pike/spear made or use an old axe made for chopping wood.

[wraith dew]

Yeah that last bit pans out. "If it ain't broke don't fix it."

[lucid briar]

and why go into short range against a knight or an armored man at arms when me and the boys can poke him with very long pikes until he gets shot by a handgonne

[wraith dew]

Ight, I'll be back in a bit. I gotta go finish my Science Project. Cya at like, 12:25 EST. You're an amazing consultant on historical Arms & Armor. It has been both an immense honor & privilege of speaking to you, and having you for such a long duration of your precious time. Thankyou!, Forever & Always; @wraith dew.

[lucid briar]

Thank you I have very much to learn still! luckily I specialize in the late 15th century and early 16th century of germany so this is my bread and butter!

time for armor postin

[silver heart]

i envy your specialization

[lucid briar]

It all started with mordhau funny enough

And since I have been reading and looking into history and armors of the late 15th century and its been very eye opening and fun!

But after learning all of this I can't watch most movies or series trying to depict the "medieval era" my mind starts to disintegrate.

[silver heart]

i feel you heavily on that one, my gf and our friends have come to expect my ramblings anytime we watch anything of the sorts

[wraith dew]

I miss having a Girlfriend… Many people take their SO’s for granted, to be honest. Not saying you are. But cherish your loved ones like everyday may be their last. For you don’t ever really know for certain if or when it will be. Hence why you should never look at someone funny for saying “I Love You”. Good-Day.

[whole pendant]

Basically if you have an expertise in anything, you’ll find inconsistencies or things that are plain wrong in that field.

If you’re a pilot, you can’t watch most of the movies with airplanes in them, if you’re a surgeon, you cringe at every scene in a hospital etc.

[next orchid]

Bullet proofing using cold water quenching (can crack it but can also make it super hard, which vs the low caliber firearms of the day, can work to stop them), apparently first being done in South Germany around 1490

[next orchid]

Firearms were always used at long distances. Corned powder had already been used for handguns in the 15th c. Firearms could reliably penetrate many armors in the 15th century. By all means, they were never "safe", especially considering their limbs would be basically unprotected and the thickness of the breast would be uneven.

[next orchid]

On horseback maces were very common

[next orchid]

Not really

[lone osprey]

Firearms werent always used at long distances tho. And yeah . . . Williams basically implies as much that firearms could reliably penetrate armor in the 15th century, he is trying to give it the benefit of the doubt to see if it would have had any protective ability at that point in time.

You dont even know the context lol when talking about long distance he gives the example of shooting over the Elbe river at the battle of Muhlberg.

Why you always gotta talk in such convicted absolutist no-nuance terms man its so toxic and cringe

[turbid shadow]

neat harness but the helmet is actually from the 1490s so its quite unfitting for HS

Crest is inspired by an Italian painting from the 1440-1450s tho

rest should work fine and dandy with the game

[robust tendon]

@turbid shadow kill

[next orchid]

Firearms were not just close ranged weapons lmao.

The elbe is only like 150 meters wide

"convicted and no nuance" is when I don't take 20 year old book at face value for the tactics of the period

Orso deghli Orsini in the middle of the 15th c already wrote that handguns could penetrate armor with ease

[robust tendon]

what’s the name of that source? I’d like to look at it myself

[lucid briar]

I would love HS to be based around 1480 to 1500 armor would be insane we could get plate voiders and articulated gorgets but imagine trying to have the armor interact properly it would be a nightmare

[robust tendon]

plate voiders exist within the timeframe

[lucid briar]

for elbows and knees I know talking more about armpit voiders

[robust tendon]

oh i see

[lucid briar]

in general 1490 to 1500 german armors were 🔥

[robust tendon]

true

1490-1530s ish is great

[lucid briar]

everything from the thun sketchbook is awesome got myself some gauntlets from it

[next orchid]

Del governo et exercitio de la militia

Still not translated, I don't even think it's transcribed electronically. You can find the MS on gallica though

[robust tendon]

oh i see, that’s a shame then

[next orchid]

also both Pope Pius II and Bartolomeo Facio around the same time wrote that no armor could stop a handgun, no matter of its quality

[terse bronze]

did you know that crossbows were BANNED by nobles because they could get easily killed by peasants ith no training?? (/s...)

[next orchid]

true^

[robust tendon]

was that just because armor was not designed with firearms in mind yet? I’d think they’d have the capability to do so as not much later there are instances of armor proofed for firearms

[terse bronze]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfiRbYg5w5w

(pretend to understand they talk about guns too)

[next orchid]

not in mind, a little, but probably principally we are dealing with a time where science as we know it did not exist, only trial and error. and since extreme weight was not yet seen as a desirable tradeoff to defend against these machines, especially since the limbs will be basically unprotected from them anyways, it would not take until late in the century for the bullet proofing of armor to become "a thing"

i mean, Monte's description of how they bullet proofed armor is "quench in cold water and also beat it while its cold (work hardening)", which, you know, can crack the steel

and he still says to wear a soaked hoqueton over it (to defend from bullets)

[terse bronze]

soaked 💦 👅 hoquetons

[robust tendon]

makes sense to me, given how later on, armor more or less becomes just a helmet and cuirass. I suppose then it was seen as a better option to wear bullet proofed armor than to wear arm and leg harness alongside it that could not do much against firearms

[next orchid]

well those who only wore cuirasses/breasts and helmet werent usually wearing caliver proofed ones, and certainly not musket proofed (which didnt exist)

[robust tendon]

oh i see

[toxic breach]

Soak🥛🥛

[next orchid]

the reason they discard it is kind of circular: pistols make the melee dangerous (shots at the thigh and face or voids kill with ease), so the melee becomes shorter and rarer, which means the armor that principally exists for the melee decreases (since they can scarcely defend against carbines, calivers, and definitely muskets), which then further leads into the melee becoming undesirable even more. combine this with the change in doctrine, with a heavy emphasis on skirmishing, this leads to lots of armor in general becoming undesirable, since heavy armor + a horse moving around a lot = tired quickly and now youre dead.

[robust tendon]

when i say later on i mean like 17th century. afaik in the 16th arm and leg harness is alive and well

[next orchid]

at the end of the 16th c. they start to shift away from it

[robust tendon]

Iirc in the 1600s, armor was proofed more often than not but that’s just what i remember hearing

[next orchid]

the cavalry ones yes, pistol proofed, sometimes caliver proofed, or pistol proofed with a plackart that makes it caliver proofed

caliver (or the lesser carbine/harquebus proof) usually being done at a further distance

musket proof basically doesnt exist

[robust tendon]

yeah i figured, given how as muskets get more popular, armor less so

[next orchid]

the tests done never use the military load

[next orchid]

sort of, but principally armor always had existed to defend against handstrokes first and foremost

muskets increase the ranges and make closing more difficult, so u get less armor

[robust tendon]

makes sense. Cavalry used it for a long time after infantry stop using it more or less

[next orchid]

which just makes closing more undesirable

[robust tendon]

And cavalry were usually the ones doing hand-to-hand later

[next orchid]

yeah

armor is not wholly necessary in a melee, but the melees become shorter + undesirable without it, so the melees become less common, and if you are not coming to handstrokes constantly, the armor becomes a liability in war

u had Tavannes, la Noue, Basta, Mendoza, etc. all write that the cavalry melees dont last long, principally because of pistols

a similar thing happened for the infantry in the 17th c., the times they would come to handstrokes against other pikemen (which they often wouldnt, especially in skirmishes), it usually ended at the first push of the pike, and the pell mell occurring after was short (so goodbye halberds, whose sole purpose within the body of pikes was to fight therein), probably since to stay would mean to get shot to bits (and a lot of the "armed" pikemen had disarmed their limbs).

[robust tendon]

pell mell?

[next orchid]

the chaotic close combat when both sides are mixed. synonym for melee (although connotative-wise, pell mell was usually reserved for infantry combats, and melee for cavalry)

[robust tendon]

how would a soaked hoqueton help with this?

never heard of something like this

[terse bronze]

fun fact !!! : in french we use "pêle-mêle" as an expression for when something is in a sort of disorder

like a bunch of stuff just.. placed there

pêle-mêle..

[robust tendon]

the funnest of facts

[wraith dew]

Well there’s this lovely thing called modding! And if you’d like to hear about it; Then come with me my friend! ^_^

*** #modders-guild-hall ***

[wraith dew]

Didn’t stop people from using them though lmfaooo

I mean tbf people have always frowned upon others using the most efficient means of killing and tended to just call it; “Cowardly”, “Barbaric”, “Uncivilized”, “Ungentlemanly, < Insert Generic Derogatory Term/Word Here >, Etc.

Like there are written reports and paintings in/of battles of Lords & Kings just deciding; Fuck’it-We Ball!, and then just using Crossbows/Arbalests outright anyways, Against Regulations/The Church’s Will. Almost solely for the sake of them being as effective as they were.

As well as their capability of having the potential to do slightly more damage against light armor. ~ { Mainly The Heavier, Hand-Cranked-Crossbows, &/Or Arbaelists. As well as just The Heavier, Hand-Cranked-Crossbows. }

[robust tendon]

an arbalest is just a crossbow

it’s old french for crossbow

nothing specific

[wraith dew]

Thought it meant Heavy Crossbow/Siege Crossbow?

[robust tendon]

also the pope never banned crossbows specifically

It was a general ban on ranged weapons

[wraith dew]

Oh lol

[robust tendon]

which ofc nobody listened to

[wraith dew]

Yeah,

I mean why would you?

[robust tendon]

in modern terminology yes i suppose

but it translates directly to crossbow

[wraith dew]

Church was SUPER fucking corrupt at the time.

[robust tendon]

semi related, another pope tried to ban the joust

needless deaths or some such

[wraith dew]

Really?

Interesting…

[robust tendon]

pretty sure yeah. Not sure which though

[vast birch]

https://tenor.com/view/2015x-2015xx-gif-22100265

i cannot wait europa universalis comes out

1337

[wraith dew]

HAHAH!; “P.A.D.J.” ~ { Popes**.** Against**.** Drunk**.** Jousting**.** }
💀🃏

[vast birch]

and 1338 medieval 1212 ad attila late game mode

and kingdom come 2

and witcher 4

[terse bronze]

you missed by "/s" cuz sarcasm, what i said is just not true at all

[wraith dew]

Ohhhhh, that’s what that means?

My B, sorry.

[next orchid]

its over the cuirass

so itll help slow the bullet

[turbid shadow]

yeah, would love to get a dlc that covers the very last years of the 15th century to the 16th century.

[next orchid]

not another pope, same council that attempted to ban bows and crossbows

also the same council that attempted to ban fighting on holidays

it was a general attempt to limit needless deaths

[terse bronze]

gotta understand them they were probably annoyed at the amount of villages caught in crossfire between 2 men-at-arms doing a dick size contest

[next orchid]

yeah lmao

its still funny though

[terse bronze]

yeah

love the 12-13thc

some really silly geese

[wraith dew]

https://tenor.com/view/this-man-true-get-this-man-a-true-true-this-man-horse-gif-27541147

[turbid shadow]

cus stuff like this goes so fucking hard, 1540 if i do recall

[wraith dew]

But-but, I want intricately made black Full-Plate tooooo!

[turbid shadow]

which is why you guys must spread the word of HS so we can get more dlcs to cover more periods

[wraith dew]

I swear we need either a DLC, or dedicated Mod-Team/Guild for 1490’s~1520’s
Half-Sword!

[turbid shadow]

would you know it

[wraith dew]

?

[turbid shadow]

https://discord.com/channels/1043854763189600337/1241281101138366495

made a thread some time ago that covers the time period

[robust tendon]

yeah i wasn’t sure if it was the same or a different one lol

[silver heart]

so real!

[lucid briar]

here are my bifurcated gauntlets from the Thun sketchbook dating is about 1495 Germany.

and now for some great 1470 milan armor

[toxic breach]

Gyatt

[terse bronze]

That bec de faucon is sexy ...

[eternal rune]

hot

a full brass accent on the entire suit of armor would do so much for looks if not for actual use lol

[lucid briar]

its gold leaf actually and it chips easier than anticipated

it really doesnt like battle

[glacial hill]

Not sure it’s its period appropriate but I would love to see maybe a liripipe on lower peasant-level Willies

[lone osprey]

"Firearms were not just close ranged weapons lmao." I never implied that they are

convicted and no nuance is when you make weird claims like "firearms were always used at long distances"
like bro I'm so sorry I didn't realize you are 700 years old and in every war since firearms were introduced to europe

"Orso deghli Orsini in the middle of the 15th c already wrote that handguns could penetrate armor with ease"
thats great
because im not a nasty little contrarian, I can say that's cool that the primary sources you know of corroborate modern investigations

[rancid widget]

afaik this is period appropriate

Dr. Tobias Capwell's 15th century armor reproduction from English effigies (c. 1445)

[lone osprey]

underrated angle

[lone osprey]

this backplate was apparently salvaged from a burned building so maybe the knight doesnt come off looking too bad at least

[robust tendon]

you weren’t there so how do you know

a pretty fallacious argument as you do not have to see something to infer

i find it hard to believe you would ever fire an early handgun at short or close range unless you were an idiot. But it depends what you mean by not at a long range

[lone osprey]

well I guess the victorious spanish soldiers at the battle of cerignola were all idiots

[robust tendon]

how long of a distance is forty paces?

[lone osprey]

not what I meant. what I meant is that guy seems to be the le definitive fact checker and its toxic

[lone osprey]

a lot shorter than the max distance of muskets. thats from a book on the 30 years war too.

[robust tendon]

well he seems to use a lot of primary sources and tbh i trust those over pretty much anything else

not like modern historians are all wrong though

[lone osprey]

yeah, primary sources are great. I also generally like to have civil responses and sources cited if someone is going to contradict and not just 'errm because i said so'

btw im not implying the battle of cerignola was in the 30 years war lol. just showing two very disparate examples of where early modern firearms were recorded to have been used at shorter distances

[lone osprey]

this is a weird line of reasoning too. you fire weapons when its advantageous. if that means that its at the longest distance possible during a skirmish at the beginning of a battle, there are examples of that. if that means its in the midst of fighting and at much shorter range, there are examples of this too. its not a black and white 'only at long range only at short range'.

the basic narrative of firearms- not that I have interrogated it, maybe mr primary source fact checker knows better - is that with the more widespread use of the musket in the mid 16th century, the range at which firearms were used increased. I've read this in other books, dunno about primary sources. The battle of muhlberg is the source given by Williams based on Oman's old book which is based on an old Latin history published like 80 years after the battle. not ideal, but geez man, nobody knows everything. everyone's knowledge of history is patchy and fallible. I'd rather be humble than pretend I knew exactly what was goin on

[silver heart]

beefing in references is crazy

[lone osprey]

youre right. Ill take my autism medication and ignore it next time

[robust tendon]

yeah i see your point

my reasoning is that it’s a liability at a short range

cause you will be forced into melee soon, may as well get hand-to-hand weapons out instead of firing

but idk that’s just conjecture

[lone osprey]

yeah you are totally right. but I guess this is why they were defended by pikemen

[robust tendon]

to me it’s like firing a crossbow or longbow at a distance of like 20 meters or so. Sure you might take a couple of the men in the other formation out, but they’re gonna close with you quickly so you may as well not bother

[robust tendon]

true, it’s also important to consider that it’s unlikely your handgunners would be left totally unprotected

[lone osprey]

it can be relative too. at Cerignola, so far as I know, the Spanish waited for the French forces to get to their fortified position where they got caught up and where it was most advantageous for them to be shot at. that was apparently a successful approach

and as far as I know, it was similar at the 1522 battle of bicocca where swiss charged fortified arquebusiers and were annihilated at relatively close range

[next orchid]

You did, otherwise your original point makes no sense: "there are examples of tactical changes with firearms sometimes being used at longer distances". combined with citing the Elbe (which is not that wide to begin with), in what way could it be interpreted except that you meant 15th century handguns were not used to shoot at longer distances?

Yes firearms in the modern sense of something projecting a bullet via gunpowder had been always used at "long range" (as in, they always had the tactical capability)

U are a nasty little contrarian, "hur dur guns couldn't penetrate armor because Alan Williams in 2003 said that the knight should still be safe", that is a literal contrarian take

[next orchid]

Yes because u guys post stupid shit non stop

[next orchid]

Like 30 meters

Unless it's a double pace in which it'd be like 60-70

I don't know which the author uses

Either way "always shot at long range" I thought clearly did not mean they never shot at close range, since the context was you claiming that firearms had only "recently" been shooting at long range in the 16th c.

Regardless, Alan Williams is by the far the opposite guy id go to for anything gunpowder. His "handgun" was quite literally just a steel tube he bought somewhere. His history is scuffed too clearly