references♥_1450-1470

[vocal vale]

they are pretty ubiquitous

unusually late rondel wing, probably a few years late for the game ?

[terse bronze]

I love the little maille strips on his hosen

Usually it's only 1

[robust tendon]

Arming swords with finger rings, from the Pastrana Tapestries (1471)

[vocal vale]

why did you send this here

i do not understand your followup message

[lean pendant]

i cant type in music

and i have to let this guy know he has a fire music taste

[vocal vale]

then send it in general

this is a chat for historical discussion

[compact flame]

Very late response but the shoulder rondel is the unusual part it isnt period or place appropriate to the rest of it the mixture of the elements is what makes it anachronistic the specific shoulder roundel and elbow rondel are mismatched and the elbow was originally a nipple shape what I was saying is that the whole piece is strange and has visible differences to other pieces im not saying that its impossible for it to be based off an original but its styling is unorthodox

[lone osprey]

this is from a c.1500 manuscript but given as sam said the ubiquity of the type of armour and the likelihood that such a configuration of armour was likely transmitted for many decades, it's entirely plausible that such a combination of rondel and other components was used at one point during 1440-1480 (the fullest extent of time for HS with the give/take 10 years) which doesnt seem unorthodox to me i m h o

[lone osprey]

banquet mode when

[lean pendant]

oh ok sorry

[robust tendon]

15th century codpiece perhaps

could just be artist fuckery though, not sure

[tepid edge]

Can the axehead of an Halberd cut into an breastplate or vambrace?

A search gives mixed results but the consensus makes it seem like it's possible under specific circumstances.

I'm mostly looking at 14th century armor.

[robust tendon]

9/10 times no

depends on steel quality but it's safe to say it's highly unlikely to cut through plate armor

piercing is more likely but still not common at all

if you want to pierce armor, your best shot is using a handgun/handcannon or lancing it

even so in the case of lances, the holes made are very small

hardly going right through like it's sheet metal

[silver heart]

best armor penetration a halberd can provision is via its top spike through the gaps in someones plate to my knowledge however a blow to the head against someone wearing a helm with a halberd head is still gonna deliver a lot of good blunt force

[tepid edge]

I guess that the two are different

[prisma raven]

[silver heart]

grinch’s brigandine

[prisma raven]

a French armor (left) and an Iberian harness (right)

[terse bronze]

Us

[prisma raven]

Fr

[terse bronze]

1440-1460 France, BNF Français 1291 - Book of the Hunt

[vocal vale]

this is rad

what's the third image meant to be depicting?

[terse bronze]

idk

[latent drift]

anybody got the weird depictions of dragons from 1400s

[lone osprey]

Presentation of the book from author to patron/dedicatee

[vocal vale]

cool, couldn’t tell if it was a book or not because of the weird circles

thanks

[ashen hinge]

add the sticky blicky

[silver heart]

those winged spears are gorgeous

[silver heart]

HALBERD GAMING LES GOOOO

[vocal vale]

boar spears they call them !

[silver heart]

ive heard them referred to as either

[sacred citrus]

indeed

[grand echo]

id like the macuahitl as a secret weapon

[vocal vale]

there is legitimately 0 reason for this to be in game

[robust tendon]

https://tenor.com/view/smiling-friends-morgan-freeman-true-gif-14543545972329601863

[humble pagoda]

I forgor when this was around

It looks funny anyway

[vocal vale]

too late for the game most likely

[lucid briar]

about 1495 to 1505 germany most likely its an owl face sallet

[vocal vale]

i wouldnt consider it an owl face sallet

[lucid briar]

what would you consider it as?

just an odd sallet?

[vocal vale]

deep-brimmed sallet

owl face sallets have 4 distinct slits usually and encompass the whole face, usually worn with a gorget

[lucid briar]

found it dating was a bit off its from 1510

will there be grand bascinets added to the game?

[vocal vale]

likely !

[lone osprey]

it's just called a sallet by the Wallace Collection. Chris Dobson describes it among 'black sallets' because it's rough, unpolished, and used to be painted (but not on the visor).

comparable helmets also just referred to as sallet or visored sallet. similar german one in the bavarian national museum is also just called a Schaller.
https://www.bayerisches-nationalmuseum.de/en/collection/00047755

[vocal vale]

i think we should have a black sallet thread here at some point to discuss whether we as a collective think they were painted or covered with textile

because this is a hot button issue that keeps popping up i feel

[lone osprey]

the key definition repeated by Oakshott, the Royal Armouries quoting Oakshott, and Dobson (probably paraphrasing Oakshott lol) is that they were often left rough and ‘black from the hammer’- hence the term ‘black sallet’. not that they were necessarily painted or covered in textile, although there is a consistent correlation with surviving examples being painted or formerly painted

the one above in the Wallace collection did used to be painted. it was cleaned off

[vocal vale]

my first instinct would be that it was a victorian who painted it

art that shows them, i think, supports the textile

the holes on the edges of surviving pieces do too

[lone osprey]

dubious

WC says " This unusual sallet, its visor decorated with embossed eyes and nose, was once at least partially painted. In the middle of the 19th century it was still painted with black and yellow flames flowing over the skull from the front and the back. Two other sallets, with skulls of the same, rounded form (now in the collections at Žleby Castle in the Czech Republic and the Worcester Art Museum, USA), retain very similar paint schemes. "

[lone osprey]

depends which type

Dobson divides them into Dürer's Knigth Death and Devil shape as "so-called ‘sou-wester’ shape" and those usually with the two slit occuli as 'owl-faced'

those typical sallets (with or without owl-faced) examples do not have such lining holes

the 'sou-wester' tend to

it's an anachronism but clearly an attempt at typology

Oakshott has no citation and Wallace Collection never uses the term at all

probably tacitly refuting Oakshott/Royam Amouries/Dobson

I consider it as an anachronism but a harmless one that helps typology and facilitates understanding of why the simpler (typically 'owl-faced') sallets look the way they do

likewise Alan Williams and other more technical, reputable sources do not use the term at all implying it's obsolete.

one in the Worcester museum appears to have been painted twice AND has holes for a lining to cover it lol

[lone osprey]

probably anyone lucky enough to have gotten a copy of this would know the truth
cause he talks about proper inventories in an earlier article and has a spot in a subchapter in this book dedicated to clarifying the topic

[robust tendon]

with something like this I'd say it's hard to be 100% certain, so you may as well go with what has the most evidence

there's like none that i've seen pointing to black sallets being painted

but heaps to show it was covered

you could maybe argue that they did it before, so they could have done it later. (maciejowski bible's painted greathelms and some iberian examples of other helmets being painted) but it's conjecture and "well they could have done it"

they could have also worn outdated armor but we know they didn't

cause there's no evidence

[vocal vale]

it's definitely possible that "black" sallets were painted but the reasoning given by nearly every defendant of the point is bupkis

to me the notion just seems like a continuation of victorians assuming it was painted and the idea being brought to life when otherwise there would be no argument to make

if that makes sense

[robust tendon]

it does

[robust tendon]

yeah, i mean it's totally "possible" they painted every bit of armor sometimes, but 1. it doesn't show up in art, at least later and 2. majority of surviving examples and depictions show armor which is likely covered or certainly covered

so if you're shooting for 100% accuracy, probably best to just say they're covered

[vocal vale]

on a post from myarmoury.com a guy states this

"It seems most reasonable to assume that the paired stitch-holes pierced around the edges of so many 'black' sallets were provided for the attachment of a fabric covering, even if, as in the case of Leeds, Vienna and the present example, their purchasers ultimately elected to embellish them with painted decoration."

im really curious as to why anyone would want it "black from the hammer" or why they would be made with the specific purpose of attaching fabrics

i wouldnt assume everyone who would've wanted one (which i would guess would be 1. people who want to have a helmet that is more conducive to being tipped upward in its entirety and worn like a kettle and 2. people who would prefer to wear a larger sallet so they can "safely" omit a bevor, like light cavalry, which would probably also benefit from point 1.) would want to decorate them to the point that the "norm" is INTENDED to be decorated further

[lone osprey]

"or why they would be made with the specific purpose of attaching fabrics"
Wallace collection / Dobson both refer to this painting to propose that the likely purpose of attaching fabrics was likely as a kind of proto-uniform to identify bands of soldiers

[vocal vale]

!!
"It was quite customary at this period to buy the sallet and then have it embellished to your own tastes afterwards, much of the adornment found on sallets of this period were done by workshops other than those of the armourer, those of the goldsmiths etc. Regarding the provision of holes for the possible fitting of a fabric covering,in England there had been a law since 1322 that forbade the selling of any helmet that was already covered with fabric.If memory serves me correctly, this law was passed because of some unscrupulous Italian agents and dealers selling inferior or damaged helmets etc.as first rate after they had been covered with material.Possibly similar laws existed elsewhere too? It is indeed difficult to see any other possible explanation for the holes around the visor pivot other than for the attachment of a fabric covering."

[lone osprey]

"im really curious as to why anyone would want it "black from the hammer" I dont think the 'blackness' is literal at all? I believe it's figurative referring to their roughness and lack of polish. the simple shapes of both types seem to indicate that the preference was, at least originally, because they were cheaper than the more elegantly shaped and finished, polished sallets. it's possible that more wealthy soldiers liked the shape and requested it for the sake of aesthetics, but the general indication seems to be they were cheaper originally

[vocal vale]

i have to say, every depiction of a soldier in a black sallet that comes to mind involves quite a bit more color than im used to seeing on a late 1400s horseman, so maybe there is something there

[vocal vale]

by saying "black from the hammer" im just using the phrase you used to describe it earlier to mean "unfinished looking"

plenty of men at arms wearing black sallets seem wealthy to me, especially the one seen in durer's illustration, and i wouldnt assume that it was for cost reasons - additionally, it is a fairly low cost to polish a helmet compared to buying the armor itself

i would say the shaping on the extant black sallets is less for aesthetics and more so you can tip it upward as a whole

[lone osprey]

the cost hypothesis seems entirely rational to me. especially when, when depicted in larger numbers, the cavalry wearing them always appear to be lightly armoured. German cavalrymen are notoriously poorer than more western counterparts

anyway things change too

my hypothesis would be that the crudeness and simpler shapes were originally, perhaps, a cost saving measure. but then, it may have become fashionable, hence the ranks of good looking cavalry wearing various coloured 'black' sallets and matching harnesses in the Triumphzug / Durer's horseman

there is no way that armourers were selling those black sallets for the same price as those that had more finish, no hammer marks, were polished, and much more carefully and elegantly shaped

thus even if it was incidental - they would have been cheaper

[lone osprey]

Wallace Collection more or less concurs too. they imply a mass production context

[lone osprey]

While it is true that there is an almost complete dearth of visual sources and possibly documents recording the existence of painted sallets (one extremely rare exception being an undigitized depiction of Herzogen Heinrich and Ludwig of Bayern-Landshut in the BnF, Paris [Lugt 28] - authentic, copied from the genealogical frescoes once in the Alten Hof, Munich, this according to Franz Niehoff in the 2009 exhibition catalogue Ritterwelten im Spätmittelalter, p. 166) - there is also the fact that several extent sallets are painted with varying degrees of restoration (some obviously much more heavily and well recorded than others - such as the Grosse Schallern in the KHM and the half armour in the Glasgow Museum), that does not mean that every extant painted sallet is the product of restoration.

furthermore, you get into conspiracy theory territory without good documentation proving that the extant painted sallets in various institutions were all simply the imaginative products of restoration. they exhibit very similar painted designs; reputable published historians don't dispute their authenticity (excepting the known fully restored ones) ; and they in themselves serve as evidence of the practice. if there is a good publication that goes over how the whole practice of painting them is a fraud then I would be convinced, but otherwise the extant examples are good evidence of the practice.

lastly, there is also the matter of how one chooses to interpret the available visual evidence. Dobson, who of course has an agenda makes an effort to argue in favour of his position, suggests that the 1502 painting above may very well depict painted helmets or helmets lined by fabric. that's a perfectly reasonable position. I think there is no good reason to wholesale disregard the possibility that some were painted as they are now.

historians also note that the painting protects from corrosion. there are also numerous other contemporaneous forms of decoration of virtually every other material means available lol
the exclusion of painting as a means of decoration, given that there is evidence of it, makes less sense than keeping the possibility of its practice open

[next orchid]

yes painted with a style not at all shown in period artwork (despite that style being almost omnipresent on the "surviving" examples) and almost always having holes for an external liner

[next orchid]

cost? theyre horsemen

this isnt 1415

the heart of armor production, polishing is not at all somehow prohibitively expensive

not anymore than the armor is at least

[next orchid]

looking crude =/= being crude

they dont even look crude either

anyways the helmets themselves are from that period where armor would be repurposed later in life for parades and stuff (~1490-1510 being repurposed in i believe 1530-1550)

[next orchid]

.

it might have been actually painted in its life, but probably not painted in its life as actual military equipment

the helmet itself was faked a ton though by victorians

[next orchid]

this helmet is among those repurposed

iirc

anyways neither of those are among the "black sallet" group

(dobson is kind of a hack)

[next orchid]

this falls under "it could have been done, so it must have been done"

(fallacious reasoning)

[next orchid]

except again, those "similar painted designs" NEVER pop up in period artwork

which is just more evidence against the painted designs being from the same period that they were worn as military equipment

[lone osprey]

it's not just polishing

here's my full response / account of the topic

[lone osprey]

one covered by Dupras in Royal Armouries is legitimately cruder than other sallets

[lone osprey]

is there any evidence for this?

[lone osprey]

any evidence?

[lone osprey]

never said must

[next orchid]

What, that the helmet was faked a ton?

[lone osprey]

never said must

its the assumption that people think they MUST be authentic thats silly lol

I keep an open mind

I am open to evidence

[lone osprey]

yeah, I'd love to see it legitimately

[next orchid]

Can't find the article on it. Two of them were pulled from the royal armories website though for that reason iirc

So the evidence is in their existence lol

[lone osprey]

usually existence is good evidence that something exists yes

[next orchid]

They also painted old cuirasses. There's one breastplate that's white and green, and the paint has been dated I believe 50 years later

[next orchid]

Then saying the exclusion makes no sense makes even less sense

The exclusion is not done because it's useless, it's done because the evidence for it is not convincing

[lone osprey]

I would totally accept the possibility that they were repainted relatively shortly after their practical lifespan for parades, ceremonies etc

that seems fair given the flamboyant / monstrous designs imply more schembart context than a battlefield

[next orchid]

Painted armor for battlefield use does also show up in the early-ish 16th century (I don't mean just blackened, but actually painted)

[lone osprey]

not being convinced is a matter of opinion

[next orchid]

I think 1530s-1550

Still not super common and probably not done cuz it was cheap

[lone osprey]

yeah apparently baked in gold paint as a cheaper option to make things gold was a thing

exactly

[next orchid]

Are you talking about the one that has a square nut for the visor pivot

[lone osprey]

yeah he mentions that bits of it which are modern

that being one lol

his thesis is free I link it

[next orchid]

Calling it crude because its not shaped like other sallets is silly

The visor being not flush can be explained by the fact that it would have been worn with an external liner

It's also not the most well maintained helmet either

[lone osprey]

for the RA one IV.13 its not just the shape though. its what he calls the planishing and smoothing.

for the others - their shapes are definitely simpler and less complex and elegant than e.g. the best augsburg examples

also their materials and treatment are in some cases lower quality than contemporary armour

[next orchid]

the shape being "less complex" is irrelevant. as for the construction itself, its a military helmet. there are plenty of military extant arms that are """crude"""

fully formed sallets included

[next orchid]

this too?

[lone osprey]

but crudeness is synonymous with simplicity :/

[next orchid]

for denotation maybe, not connotation at all

[lone osprey]

no idea

[next orchid]

the answer is no

the liner holes on this one were filled in though iirc

[lone osprey]

okay lol the answer is also 'no' for several I list its not a ZING when I'm open to variation

I'm suggesting there is evidence for and against both positions, and I am just as welcome to evidence against

[next orchid]

we are arguing whether the black sallet was inherently crude

[lone osprey]

this one is of a higher quality material than the painted one in the Bavarian State Museum e.g.

[next orchid]

i can post fully formed sallets that are really crude, doesnt make sallets crude

either way, the guys wearing these are only shown to be cavalrymen

[lone osprey]

I don't think it's inherently crude :/
I even point out that there is an intrinsic contradiction in the term because it was depicted by prestigious owners

[next orchid]

the cost of a horse that can break a lance is still more expensive than their harness head to toe

[lone osprey]

some soldiers rented ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[next orchid]

must be a german thing

[lucid briar]

Or simply stole the horses from others

[lone osprey]

all I am arguing is that there are several examples of 'black sallets' where the finish is cruder than those nice polished Helmschid sallets. not that they were inherently cruder. that's what makes the term contraversial and disputable - not all were crude

[next orchid]

their finish is the liner they put over it 😏

[lone osprey]

well thats gone now innit

[next orchid]

hey, some helmets lost their polish too...

[lone osprey]

point taken

[next orchid]

oh yeah forgot this monstrosity too

[turbid shadow]

mind sharing it? neva saw said thing

[next orchid]

couldnt find it again :(

nvm

found it again

https://www.philamuseum.org/collection/object/71270?

[turbid shadow]

damn that’s pretty interesting

from what Im getting it was painted in 1520-1530?

[next orchid]

yes

[turbid shadow]

awesome sauce

[next orchid]

heres a painted helmet but the design itself looks 17th c. to me

design of the paint i mean

so lots of "authentic" stuff that was later but still historically connected (in this case, a funerary helmet)

[turbid shadow]

yeah interesting

Totally unrelated thing but im wondering how many colors they tinted their harnesses other than like idk, Blued or black

[next orchid]

here are some mid 16th to 17th c. stuff

(looking at it again, the paint design looks mid 16th c. actually)

[next orchid]

ban

scammer

@turbid shadow

[turbid shadow]

gone

[next orchid]

ty

[civic glade]

https://medievalextreme.com/helmets/bascinet-helmet-of-alexander-roa/

Can i get any word on the authenticity of this type of visor on a bascinet

It seems odd to me

[vocal vale]

mildly resembles very early visored bascinets but with buhurt slop shaping

[robust tendon]

"buhurt slop shaping"

[terse bronze]

What!!!

[candid storm]

a fantasy fluted bascinet(?) 1401-1500 Françias 9342

I'm curious if anybody else can find depictions of a fluted bascinet

[robust tendon]

1401-1500

wack ass date range

[vocal vale]

looks like that one french ms

something like third quarter of the 15thc ripe with all’antica

[robust tendon]

fluted bascinet is pretty all'antica yea

well...at least for the late 15th cent

[candid storm]

Ye that MS is all'antica

But it's still kewl

[lone osprey]

this is datced c.1510 in the Munich City Museum

the virgin and child are the painted decoration obvs

[fleet junco]

big argument about black helms?

whar???

[lone osprey]

curators deduced based on documents that Maximilian's full foot combat harness in the KHM from Arbois was painted before 1555 in baked-in gold paint too (was not painted in his lifetime though)

[agile flame]

New to this stuff, could you expand on "buhurt slop shaping". Is that referring to lower quality, or the deviations related to different needs from historical combat vs modern buhurt combat?

[terse bronze]

Referring to the very modern-sport optimized look of it

compared to what they would have looked like in history, for war

a bit like how a gun for competition is gonna be different from a gun for war in a sense

[agile flame]

Ahhh, thank you! Appreciate the clarification!

[terse bronze]

np

[lone osprey]

Regula Schmid mentions renting armour several times in the 2017 article "The armour of the common soldier
in the late middle ages.
Harnischrödel as sources for the history of urban
martial culture" she has a 1437 swiss list of rented armour as a primary source.

she says she investigates it more in a future publication but she has heaps and I don't know which one she has done it in.

||she also has similar sentiments to me:
"It can be safely assumed that the pieces of armour worn by urban soldiers compelled to fight for their towns were usually objects of mass production. Though their protective function was obvious, they shared only few representative traits with the individually tailored armour of the medieval knight: The Eisenhut or Hube of the average citizen, handed down from the father, or lent out by the widow next door, cannot be a match to a Lorenz Helmschied helmet for emperor Maximilian. And whereas masterworks and experimental armour produced for a noble lord could be of interest to many future generations – as memorial, technical, or esthetical objects –, and therefore found their way to Waffenkammern and modern museums, the ironmongery of the urban soldier was very rarely saved for more than a couple of generations. The metal was eventually worth more than the object worn down by use and old age: the broken armour went back to the smithy where the iron was recycled.29"||

also the possession of horses by German cavalry isnt always entirely clear. several 'Einspännigen' or 'Einrösser' i.e. single-horse cavalry units are noted as being a substitute for actual Gleven. but the primary sources for cavalry mustered by Maximilian always links the possessions of multiple horses to particular wealthy noblemen

[next orchid]

we have plenty of extant shitty armors that dont look shitty

like, less than a mm thick breastplates

[next orchid]

yeah. also he threatened to sue a guy for posting a review of his book on facebook

[next orchid]

fantasy scene

[next orchid]

also i dont want to assume that loaned out armor was somehow "the norm"

unless germany, the heart of armor manufactoring, was just a backwater

[terse bronze]

what the flip

[lone osprey]

there's no need to assume it was a norm - there is evidence it was a phenomenon among poorer citizen militias in switzerland though

[lone osprey]

most of germany seems to have been a bit of a backwater for a while into the early modern period tbh

[candid storm]

Yes, i found that the MS that it came from is all'antica, ima edit it

[fleet junco]

What is he wearing?

[candid storm]

? can u be more specific

[fleet junco]

What is that on his head

[royal pike]

hat

[vocal vale]

judging by the pteryges, vamplates, dots and weird wings i’d say it’s all’antica

[fleet junco]

Fosh

[candid storm]

I agree with this, but id say it kinda looks like a bascinet with a tournament style visor

[fleet junco]

Portugal

[vast apex]

Ordo Teutonicus

[vocal vale]

this equipment does not fit the period

illustration isn’t great either

[vast apex]

I did not pay attention to the descriptions of the period

[vocal vale]

‘salright

read the pins for a more in depth explanation

[vocal vale]

love this MS

[vocal vale]

,curt with the topical 6 image drop as always

thank you for your service

what book is the second pic from

[terse bronze]

the other pics (except the very last) are from George Jolliot's workshop

[vocal vale]

going on my list of tomes to acquire.. when.. when i learn new language

[terse bronze]

one of the perks of being bilingual/trilingual

[robust tendon]

it's far from the worst, the artist had an alright idea about how things should look

it's not perfect but it's not telling you anything super wrong like greathelms with late period plate

[terse bronze]

I will always hate shields with metallic rims

that shit is not real ‼️

[vocal vale]

that was my main gripe

let us trouble ourselves with it no longer, or alternatively discuss it in a thread

[robust tendon]

oh, yeah that's not good, didn't catch it

[terse bronze]

Lyon BM MS.439 Apocalypsis figurata
1450s French

[lone osprey]

Reminding me of those white gowns over armor in the latest DaDG video

[terse bronze]

They're the same sort

Hoquetons

[lone osprey]

Interesting

[robust tendon]

kinda confused on what a hoqueton is exactly, i've seen them sleeveless and like t-shaped but other times they seem to just be something worn under or over armor

maybe i'm just stupid idk

is it just a general term

[desert robin]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BVLJ4NUQz6I

[unborn tree]

https://tenor.com/view/renaissance-medieval-fight-attack-fighting-gif-11787323

[robust tendon]

cool video, not a very good reference

his harness is pretty modern buhurt-ized

[vocal vale]

french term for coat-over-armor, but when used usually denotes the french-exclusive kind of sleeveless cuts

[robust tendon]

i see, thanks

[vocal vale]

i tried for literally like 20 minutes to write something that is easy to understand because i had such a hard time putting it into words

like obviously "scheke" and "livery coat" and "hoqueton" all bear different mental images but im pretty sure the terms would've been interchangeable based on what language you spoke

its just if you say scheke, it's a german term, so you think of the german kind of overcoat yknow

[fleet junco]

Gun

[robust tendon]

is this what rappers call the stick

the blicky

[humble pagoda]

Are these actually historical? Or just fantasy helms.

[vocal vale]

historical

part of the thun sketchbook

early 1500s

[tight anvil]

Bashford Dean is here to help (he was an icthyologist but also got really into armor and particularly helmets in the early 20th century)

[vocal vale]

while this does look cool and i wish it was accurate this is not a reliable source of information

far too linear

[tight anvil]

RIP Bashford Dean, called out a century after his death

There's also a very famous (by the standards of a turn of the century icthyologist) picture of him sitting in a megalodon jaw that he put together incorrectly

[robust tendon]

yeah, it does show real helmets but it treats helmets like a linear process of evolution

instead of many different styles that may or may not be based on others

[tight anvil]

He was a biologist first for sure

[robust tendon]

also it shows barbutes as an entirely different type of helmet

which, no, they're big sallets p much

[tight anvil]

I believe this is from Helmets and Body Armor in Modern Warfare which was pretty much a treatise trying to convince militaries to give their guys helmets and also show that steel armor still worked in the immediate aftermath of WWI.

But it's mostly about helmets because nobody wanted to carry 40 lbs of steel in front of their chest to stop machine gun bullets since the rest of their body would still be vulnerable

[robust tendon]

nah the issue was that it just didn't work

for gunfire most of the time

and the plate was heavy, and was not consistently effective

steel helmets in ww1 were mostly for shrapnel

[lone osprey]

yeah the burgonet to zischägge, morion, 'iron hat', and frog mouth are basically all wrong from what is known about them today

the timeline running up the sides is just bleh- flat out wrong. I mean that mainly in regard to the cabasset (shape exised in the 15th century if we're just talking about the 'pear' tip of a war hat which is what the name means) and the burgonet/zischägge for which there is clear evidence in visual art and surviving examples of the use of proto versions in the late 15th-early 16th century, and also the implication in the chart that some helmets stopped being made when they continued to be used almost a full century later e.g. bascinet is obviously wrong at this point

[turbid shadow]

the cuirass here is still very much so inspired byh an effigy of saint George from the 1460s

"This armour is mostly based on the St George sculpture from 1462 in the church in Nördlingen. The back plate and pauldrons was only partially depicted, which made it necessary to look at other sources and blend that with what is depicted to make a functional and plausible piece. On the greaves I put a pin and a buckle instead of two buckles to make the calf smoother and not risking scratching the horse.
For being my first attempt to make a full plate armour I am pretty happy with it. I have good mobility and it does not pinch or bruise me very much. There are a few things I would have liked to do differently if I did it again, but it is what it is.
If you are wondering why I am not wearing full sleeves, it is because the sculpture was depicting short sleeves, and even though it was tempting to go with long ones I wanted to follow the source as much as possible."

[humble pagoda]

Would the besegew push back your jaw?

[zenith forge]

I LOVE Bashford Dean, especially the armor he made for the US Military

[vocal vale]

yo i didn’t realize these were the same dude !! somehow !!

[vocal vale]

nah, its attached to the front of the maille bevor so it’s pretty comfortably there

[humble pagoda]

Ahh ok. So when it is struck, the blow is deflected or is the impact reduced?

[vocal vale]

impact reduced

the lining and the maille and the plate is a comfortable and probably more breathable alternative to a full plate bevor

[terse bronze]

And deflection to a degree aswell

it's a "flat" metal disk and shit can "glance"/slide off this easier than on maille where it can get caught in the links

[vocal vale]

oh yeah i didn’t even consider the difference in catch between the plate and the maille

[humble pagoda]

Also, whats the difference between a great bascinet and a grand bascinet?

[terse bronze]

none

great is english and grand french

but means the same thing

[humble pagoda]

ah ok

[vocal vale]

grand sounds fancier

[robust tendon]

french always does

le micro-ondes vs the microwave

[terse bronze]

michealwave

macking cheese

[terse bronze]

i once had a guy go on a tangent about how posh I was while discussing baguette sandwiches with another french guy in a random server

[robust tendon]

lol

[civic glade]

Too early?

[terse bronze]

yes

[civic glade]

(This guys also love to take any shot they can at buhurt kit, cause they think it looks dumb)

And it kinda does lmao but i love it still

The specific shaping differences so far as i know come down to the fact that buhurt kit is generally bigger and rounder to fit more padding than what a guy of similar size would wear in authentic middle ages times

[terse bronze]

Buhurt is fun and i have no problem with buhurt gear which looks how it looks for many reasons related to the sport as long as people don't try to pass it for historical

[civic glade]

Which makes everyone look like the medieval michilin man

100% historical right here, it happened in history

I should know, i was there

Also everyone in buburt is kinda broke so everyone wears brigs cause theyre cheaper, you never see any fetching breastplates v.v

[robust tendon]

tbf it is hideous

[civic glade]

Well, if you wanna wear skintight armor with no room for padding while a 6’4” 290 pound texan tries to fold you into a pretzel, by my guest. Form follows function, i think theres a certain savage beauty in the way buhurt armor turns out, evolving in a direction suited to safety

Also, these guys are broke lmao, very very very few people shell out for beautiful armor by artisan smiths

[robust tendon]

yea

it's just silly how people pass it off as "sport" optimization when it's money optimization. people wore tailored armor without padding irl (or at least not nearly as much padding) and were fine

[civic glade]

One thing i will level is that a certain type of guy seems to take pride in how shitty and grimey their gear gets

Like dude, at least get the rust off

[civic glade]

Well its both

[robust tendon]

buhurt armor looks the way it does cause they pad it to shit

it would be ten times better if they didn't

[civic glade]

People actually not infrequently died or got maimed at tourneys. Nobody can ever actually die at a buhurt show or thats it for the sport pretty much

[robust tendon]

true

the pope did try to ban jousting for that reason at one point

[civic glade]

The one time a guy got seriously maimed, like life threateningly maimed, they changed the rules and named the new strap they make you put on your gear after him

[robust tendon]

unnecessary deaths or something

[terse bronze]

pope tried to ban everything bro

[robust tendon]

like the attempted ban on ranged

or "archery"

[terse bronze]

and people literally did not care

[robust tendon]

yea lol

[civic glade]

They call it the simon strap afrer simon rorich(?), his helmet came off when a guy was swinging at his head, and the dudes axe sank 3 inches into his skull

[robust tendon]

jesus

[terse bronze]

I WANT RANGED WEAPONS BANNED !!!

the very next year, Richard Lionheart and Philippe Augustus building professional crossbowmen corps :

[robust tendon]

ironic considering richard got shot

[terse bronze]

yeah lol

[civic glade]

the brain surgeon he went to said the guy only survived because he had the thickest skull he had ever seen in his entire career

Still fights! Simon is a champ

[terse bronze]

some french dude on the wall has this image appear in his mind when he shot richard

[robust tendon]

hehehe

was it ever mentioned where he got shot? i assume the face

he was prob wearing maille

elsewhere

[terse bronze]

i've seen different mentions

some just say head, some say neck

[robust tendon]

yea, so generally in the head

neck i find hard to believe unless he wasn't wearing a coif

[terse bronze]

i mean it's still a crossbow

not outlandish

[robust tendon]

true..i guess it depends on what he was using, as some xbows weren't enough for maille iirc

maybe a "heavier" one that could go through

[terse bronze]

Wait what

just checked again apparently it was in his shoulder and it got gangrenous after several days

whee did I read neck

[robust tendon]

so he didn't even die from the shot? damn

just infection after

[terse bronze]

Apparently the guy that took the shot was a cook assistant?

[robust tendon]

thought he was a knight

or a soldier, at least

[terse bronze]

"In his final moments Richard told his knights not to harm the shooter, as he was a mere child. Despite this, when Richard died the knights flayed the boy alive" from a reddit post so idk

tbh too lazy to look deeper into it

[robust tendon]

yeah I remember he even paid the guy? for some other reason idk

[civic glade]

Friend of mine tells a story about a time when the refs called time out because of an equipment failure.

So relatively common strategy is to have some of your guys hang out with their back to the list in one of their arms up on it it. helps them preserve their energy and also tactically makes it much harder to throw them, so they act as anchors for the team that other people play around.

This guy had his hand up on the list like so, and this titanic fucking Ukrainian guy, full body, smashes his bardiche into the guys hand, and every single one of the rivets on his gauntlet fucking exploded off, and it shattered like every single one of his metatarsals in his hand. So the ref called a time out and that guy went to the hospital and the subbed in a backup and went back to it

[vocal vale]

hell yeah

[robust tendon]

richard was a baller

[civic glade]

So, buhurt Gear definitely is overbuilt because it has to be. Armorers have to play a little bit of a dance, where they have to build gear that is resilient enough to stand up to it and cheap enough that some construction worker in South Carolina can afford to buy it from Ukraine and have it shipped to them. The result is armor, that kind of makes you look like the Michelin Man

[terse bronze]

if i was richard i would have stopped the bolt like that

[robust tendon]

seems like he was just a cook assistant if he was a kid

[civic glade]

Another part of it is a lot of guys and boo hurt are, to put it gently, Pretty fat.

[robust tendon]

hehehe

[turbid shadow]

Yes, did some research of the person behind the kit and found this.

[robust tendon]

pull some matrix shit

[civic glade]

There’s one guy on the team I fight with sometimes thats like 5’8” and 280 pounds. Dude can wrastle tho

[robust tendon]

yea, what irks me is as i said before is that people act like you absolutely need padding, you do for lower quality stuff but i reckon you could do fine if you had a proper repro

[terse bronze]

https://uk.pinterest.com/macs_shop/fat-guy-armors/

[turbid shadow]

robert is the goat

[robust tendon]

yeah you can definitely wear harness and not look like it barely fits you

they still did wasp waist with even larger dudes, i remember some 16th ct harness for a goliath of a man, he was 6 feet at the least

[turbid shadow]

me when the wasp waist

[robust tendon]

cool pauldron

kinda looks like a doublet shoulder

[vocal vale]

im just bitter at it because of how much it’s affected the common man’s understanding of medieval warfare

its effects on SOCIETY peeve me

in practice it’s cool and i don’t mind

[turbid shadow]

la mace is stronger than la sword

[robust tendon]

it's just annoying when people say shit like "bro maces would kill you in armor without padding" and they get this from, you guessed it, buhurt

when the armor is just worse than real stuff so it needs the padding to keep you from dying

[robust tendon]

reminds me of this piece of st george

think its supposed to be over a doublet which gives it the "bulbousness" or it's a more clever way of doing that

[vocal vale]

yeah it brings a lot of misconceptions to the table, lots of “imagine this but x300 and that’s what medieval warfare looked like!” and “imagine just head butting the guy in the duel like that haha”

so now the image of the knight that has been built up across the years where he’s chivalrous and he’s tactical has been turned into this “wow they all fight like cavemen apparently and they’re all bulky as hell”

obviously it’s not “done damage to society” it’s just inconvenienced me in points of discussion and i feel like has fiddled with the image of medieval warfare

[civic glade]

i dont really agree. even with as much padding as they have, you have a lot of bruises and breaks and CCT is a huge problem in the sport thats only getting worse. and these armors are made with thicker steel of a higher and more uniform quality than was available in the period, so i think whats more likely is that in those times people just accepted that you get hurt and mayble killed in tourney fights, and of course its obviously accepted that you get maimed and killed in battle

i think its more likely that they just accepted a lot more risk back then than we do now

[terse bronze]

people sometimes lose their mind when i tell them that if I was a man-at-arms id rather have a sword than a mace

[robust tendon]

yeah idk...but there are harness fighters who do not get injured or just get bruises like dequitem
he's claimed a few times that you barely feel a lot of the "dangerous" strikes from maces iirc

and dequitem's harness is far from the best, so it puts it into perspective

[turbid shadow]

yeah its crazy how they think the sword is just utterly useless despite it being a lot more versatile than the mace

[robust tendon]

it's common sense when you think about it. is stabbing the under shoulder going to hurt less than getting hit on your sallet with a club? seems obviously no

[robust tendon]

I've seen people say that at the invention of maille armor, the sword was useless and obsolete...

[terse bronze]

"swords were actually merely status symbol !"

kill

[robust tendon]

murder

[turbid shadow]

destroy, even

[civic glade]

its so versatile that in armored fighting of pretty much any format, your not even allowed to do all things its capable of

[terse bronze]

people forgetting that maces can absolutely be status symbols aswell

[vocal vale]

i think also that buhurt equipment is built very well to do its job but when it fails it fails hard

[civic glade]

buhurt straight up forbids you from grabbing the blade of your own sword for any reason, ever

[robust tendon]

lol from what i hear it's the exact opposite of what people think

maces were more often status symbols than swords were

[civic glade]

no thrusting, for any reason, ever. no striking with the cross for any reason, ever.

[vocal vale]

i mean maces were and sometimes still are handed out as badges of office, they’re pretty much the most status symbol weapon out there

[robust tendon]

swords are both, they're great weapons and they look nice

[terse bronze]

on the topic of weapons being symbols lemme just find a pic i took in paris

[robust tendon]

maces in certain context are only really good to look pretty

[civic glade]

maces seem more dangerous to a guy in flexible armor than a guy in plate armor. it seems they fall out of fashion on the battlefield when plate becomes common as well

[vocal vale]

i feel like the lack of thrusting especially has damaged the common understanding of in-period armored sword fighting

[civic glade]

if you want to explore that you have to turn to people who actually do hema. buhurt isnt that and itll never be that

[robust tendon]

it's also funny cause like you're much more likely to kill and unarmored man with a mace than an armored one

[turbid shadow]

Its silly

[robust tendon]

it's BORING

[civic glade]

its extremely sensible

ive seen depictions of period tourney weapons that were blunted tips as well

[turbid shadow]

I’d rather watch harnisfechten all day than buhurt

[vocal vale]

i have explored that personally with my own shoulders and collarbones

i just wish more people that see it casually were informed “hey, this is sport and not reenactment” like for a lot of people i see arguing in comments

[robust tendon]

yeah I believe they were used in kolbenturnier?

[terse bronze]

good ol' king rené tourney book

[robust tendon]

seems that it's more a rule because they think it's fun though

people at tourneys could absolutely afford the best armor with voiders of plate and such

[vocal vale]

also iirc you weren’t allowed to stab in in-period buhurt either, as evidenced by the literally perforated breastplates they sometimes used

[turbid shadow]

Honestly im glad half sword is stepping up and is trying to depict blossfechten, harnisfechten and probably much more later

it’s refreshing

[robust tendon]

and king rene's tourney book with the flat tipped swords

and kolbenturnier bascinets

[vocal vale]

yuh

[turbid shadow]

kings rene’s tourney book is something I hope half sword references

but I’m pretty sure that book is French so that’s gonna be saved for later maybe

[robust tendon]

it'd be fun to have kolbenturnier, iirc it was where you tried to knock big crests off of helmets

[civic glade]

i frankly dont think people have any real idea of what in period fighting was like at all. Like i dont think normal people literally think about it ever

[terse bronze]

Walther, Marx: Turnierbuch und Familienchronik - BSB Cgm 1930
(link: https://www.digitale-sammlungen.de/en/view/bsb00038795?page=16,17)

(wicker greatbascinet, targe )

[civic glade]

every time ive done fencing in a public place people were interested in a totally ignorant way, not in the 'thats not what i thought itd be like' kind of shock

[lone osprey]

Was just looking at that sauage crest an hour ago

[robust tendon]

which explains this

[civic glade]

like, "oh you swordfight? like actually fight for real with swords? how?"

[vocal vale]

in casual discussion with my buddy’s dad and stuff they’re immediately like “YOU SEEN MEDIEVAL MMA !? I CAINT BELIEVE THEY DONE THAT!!”

idk

[robust tendon]

also from rene's toruney book

[turbid shadow]

that crest tho

[robust tendon]

yeah it's awesome

i want em in hs

[turbid shadow]

need crests eventually

[civic glade]

Okay, MMMA is literally the cringest shit ever, that should be abolished and everyone responsible should be drawn and quartered

ill give you that one

[vocal vale]

lmao

[robust tendon]

big ass crest with the bretagne hermine...yummy

[terse bronze]

i wish i could find that one armorial manuscript back dude (it was 14thc however) and depicted coat of arms with greathelm+crests next to it and one of them had literal bunny ears

[robust tendon]

holy grap

[turbid shadow]

me when I harness my self with an armet+wrapper+crest and kill people

[robust tendon]

crested armets are peak

[turbid shadow]

14th century dlc now

[civic glade]

MMA is cool, i love seeing two roided up naked dudes going ape shit on eachother.

none of that toxic masculinity should touch my beautiful knights though

[robust tendon]

delicious

[terse bronze]

ok i found the screenshot i took and sent to a friend but no idea about the ms name

[vocal vale]

i’ve seen one with black wings oriented in a way that made the helmet look like a batman cowl

[terse bronze]

Maybe it's from Armorial de Gelre

[civic glade]

art imitates life....

bunny knight, where are you

[terse bronze]

behold

NOOOO ITS EMPTY ....

Cry

[turbid shadow]

top 5 reasons why I think half sword should make a 14th century dlc

[robust tendon]

definitely..i wanna look like this

[turbid shadow]

honestly if they ever do that its should be like late to early 15th century

[next orchid]

same council as the one that banned jousting

also the same council that banned fighting on holy days

[terse bronze]

yeah

[terse bronze]

yuhuh

[next orchid]

they stuck all their ridiculous demands in a single council so its ok

another Papal Victory

[vocal vale]

fun police

[next orchid]

fighting as in war fighting lol

was incredibly insane

[vocal vale]

ONLY SWORDS and ONLY on weekdays

[terse bronze]

ONLY on weekdays
(*doesn't include holy weekdays)

[next orchid]

weekdays that arent on the same day as the apocryphal local saint's bday

[next orchid]

armor failures are funny

Monte says sliding rivets are bad because at every blow from maces they pop out

ive also seen a video where a guy cracks open a helmet

"Where one plate of armor attaches to another, aside from the rivets, there should also be strong straps, not just the type that are commonly secured with rivets, but the ones that pass through holes to hold the plates together. This binding is flexible, and does not break, and always holds the armor together. Rivets work very differently, for as long as they last they hold strongly, but when we hit them with a warhammer every plate comes apart, which can certainly be seen in combat, for after a few blows the combatants become unarmored in many places. Straps of this sort are more necessary in the pauldrons and gauntlets than anywhere else, for in these places we receive many blows from warhammers."

[lone osprey]

This reminds me of old Vindictus with its cool breakable armour on player characters

This would be so cool to see in HS

[silver heart]

that dude on the left is dripped the fuck out

[civic glade]

Positively sopping

[civic glade]

This is an interesting read, i remember back before the demo people were asking for breakable armor and other people said armor never breaks and they argued about it

It would pretty cool if you could snag and break certain pieces

You can, very very rarely, pop some of the helmets off

[next orchid]

happens a lot in the text, at least for horseback engagements

[vocal vale]

yeah i would assume that rivets being such a liability would mostly be a mounted concern

in foot combat i doubt it would be a huge issue

[lone osprey]

with just how complex and detailed the damage model is for willie himself

it would be cool to see damaged variants of the armour sets too, to me. I don't mind the plausibility lol

[next orchid]

i dunno about "such" a "liability"

[bright token]

https://www.philamuseum.org/collection/object/306160 Nice sallet.
Has this type of sallet being added into the game yet? I really like how it looks.

pic for those who dont want to click the link 😄

[fleet junco]

Amazing

[lone osprey]

there is a very similar one

and another comparable one

safe to say theyve probably got sallets covered lol

[fleet junco]

Thanks gangster

[bright token]

Peak

God i can’t wait to see german style armour added into the game

[fleet junco]

German battle armor

Maxamaliioln

[bright token]

Manifesting they will be in the game

[fleet junco]

Evil bascinet

[robust tendon]

yeah we're getting the sigismund harness iirc

[vestal thistle]

it would be cool to have some kind of armour destruction

[unborn tree]

https://tenor.com/view/halfsword-half-sword-hop-on-gif-3370577139653259118

[bright token]

Is this a mural artwork?

[candid storm]

It's a tapestry so that might classify as a mural?

[bright token]

Okay :]

Where does it come from? England?

[candid storm]

I'm not sure that part tbh idk maybe the guy who posted it might kno2

[lone osprey]

its from a tapestry in the Freiburg Museum
https://onlinesammlung.freiburg.de/de/object/Bildteppich - Passionsteppich--Wandbehang-mit-fünf-Szenen-der-Passion/2EA5D2954B561E69AD7274B92C5A293A?slide=0
the oldest date is 1518 in its provenance for when it was donated by someone but its definitely older.
looking at the landsknecht costumes its probably outside of this game's timeframe probably 1490s but the wicker shoes and apparently hounskull visor on the sallet (or bascinet I dunno, has a pointy skull which might disqualify sallet) on the snip I posted look like they fit roughly into the game's timeframe lol

[bright token]

Thank you for the source

[whole anchor]

whats this weapon?

[robust tendon]

i guess a one handed warhammer, he's probably driving the spike or "beak" into the guy's head

[silver heart]

either a horseman’s pick or just a one handed warhammer like crecy said

[fleet junco]

Its a tool

[analog tartan]

the armor dents when hit with maces and such

[vestal thistle]

I’m thinking more being able to actually knock prices off

[lone osprey]

Oh this is cool i need to pay more attention. Probably too focused on the gore lol

[analog tartan]

you can knock helmets off

with swords and blunt weapons

[terse bronze]

(-:

[next orchid]

suppose its supposed to be like one of these

[silver heart]

remember seeing skalls video on these, very funny weapon

[next orchid]

theyre in a talhoffer manuscript too. they sometimes show up in prints/miniatures as pollaxes

[fleet junco]

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b105452357/f159.item

destruction de troyes

[frank island]

…

[terse bronze]

...

[vocal vale]

…

second time this guy has “been too lazy” to leave the channel to check his roles

[silver heart]

Mural from Uppsala Cathedral dating to 1480

[young plaza]

Should be noted those murals have undergone severe restoration over the years, so details may be off

[floral obsidian]

i made this in like 30 seconds #poll message

[verbal bramble]

Wait, they actually adding Lorenz Helmschmied's work?

[robust tendon]

some of it ig

[grizzled mesa]

some fake italian coded coat of arms i made for a fantasy world a friend of my was building

personally i like armoria more to make Coat of Arms

[toxic breach]

I don't think fictional creations really fit the reference channels. Maybe more appropriate for #art-🎨

Since so far only real coat of arms appear on heraldic displays e.g. shields and the flags ingame

Speak of heraldry ... would be nice to see this silly horse ... fits the ingame region (originates from Bavaria or somewhere in south germany)

[river flint]

There are rules and regulations for how heraldry is made and how iy can be used, and it would be ideal to confirm that the in game heraldry doesnt belong to anyone.

[toxic breach]

But they do belong to real figures

Even arms which dont reappear in the playtest (e.g. the two red shears over white)

Like this appears in the demo pavises; von Giech family

[river flint]

The point is those figures sometimes had children, who also had children, and they might feel protective of their families heraldric insignias

[toxic breach]

not sure how that explains nonexistant arms in the game but OK

[turbid shadow]

pretty sure the coas of the french or hre or the english etc etc just didn’t belong to some random knight; prolly to some guy who is close friends with important figures

more coas wouldn’t hurt at all though

[toxic breach]

yes for sure but is there really a need for kind of cheesy fictional arms ;p

Real arms go hard

Who doesn't want the bucket on their shield

[turbid shadow]

I’d say add more real coas but just keep the most obvious coas to important figures for the adventure mode or something

[toxic breach]

ye

purple is such a rare color in heraldry

[turbid shadow]

even then, I think HS will allow you to make your own coat of arms and display those on your surcoat,shield n stuff

[toxic breach]

Purple bucket over brown field

[river flint]

This is a hand axe thats likely from inbetween 1400-1450
Its intended purpose was likely to be use as a self defence tool for traveling, while also having a pick on the back to help traverse harsh terrain. Its essentially a medieval ice pick, to help mountain travel.

Scale on the bottom is in centimeters

[river flint]

I was arguing for historically plausible arms, as to not get sued for using the coat of arms of some german with too much money in those cases its better to be safe than sorry

[toxic breach]

Empirically unlikely .. Czechia or Germany could then sue HS for using their historical arms but that hasnt happened

[river flint]

It just has to happen once. The game isnt out yet. 🫡

[terse bronze]

as it should be

[turbid shadow]

https://sammlungen.ub.uni-frankfurt.de/msma/content/thumbview/3654385

[grizzled mesa]

so so sorry i did not realise i was in the reference channel when i posted

[lone osprey]

In the 1 in 1 trillion chance this happened they would probably just send a cease and desist lol

[vocal vale]

red cross sues half sword for having the flag of the republic of genoa in game

[next orchid]

forced to make the cross green

[toxic sky]

damn, real? stupid red cross

[versed aurora]

🧢

[vocal vale]

joke

[vocal vale]

joke

[robust tendon]

they call him the jester

[terse bronze]

but didnt the red cross actually sue things over said red cross previously

[vocal vale]

many a time

it’s why health packs in videogames are green on white or white on red

[vocal vale]

i would love to have different tournaments with different rules on equipment in the final game

tourneys where stabbing is prohibited and you can wear perforated cuirasses, tourneys where they’re lax and you can spike up your gauntlets

[prisma raven]

[river flint]

Halo CE had that problem with the international red cross, as red cross on white is a protected symbol to be used in wartime

[void stream]

Manuscript: Amiens BM MS.483 Eracles

[peak chasm]

Mordhau

[vocal vale]

where is this picture from

[robust tendon]

wolfrib bascinets in the background…gross

probably a buhurt event

[vocal vale]

thats what i was thinking but there are the three chads in the center who dont have visor straps or fridgebuild padding

[robust tendon]

true

i guess they just did their research and wanted to get a proper harness

[next orchid]

U can't bring a proper harness, it's unsafe

[terse bronze]

throw tomatoes at him

[robust tendon]

do this

[next orchid]

Tomatoe

[silver heart]

really?

[next orchid]

Yeah. Real harnesses aren't optimized for the bashing stuff, so tbi, broken neck, and ruined joints galore

As for other reasons, buhurt is really tough on the armor itself

most competitions/events have standards for the armor

[thorny otter]

Depends on the harness. There are some medieval examples (like the claude de vaudrey type of suit, or some of the english suits) where the changes from the historical design would not be that drastic. And it's not like there is not a decent suit popping out in buhurt waters every now and then, it just is very rare. However there is also the issue of price and timing, where buhurt stuff is much cheaper and needed to be ready much more readily.

[pseudo comet]

Saint-Peterburg

Russia

[random garnet]

https://youtube.com/shorts/hrgIqPj0cWQ?si=72tDV0ZueKZixAFL

I wanna share this video. Showing to the people who cant figure out why their sword bruises instead of cutting

[fleet junco]

Plaque belt

[terse bronze]

plaque belt

[sullen charm]

anyone know what type of armor this is ?

[vocal vale]

western european mid to late 1300s

looks like a repro of the black prince's armor

the cloth on the chest is called cote armor

[sullen charm]

nice i thought it was supposed to be a tabard

[vocal vale]

the long rerebraces are notably english

[vocal vale]

tabards are longer and around the time of the crusades and dont tie at the sides usually, nor do they tie as tightly to the armor

[next orchid]

european shenanigans, must be

[next orchid]

why are u spelling coat like that

or rearbrace

[vocal vale]

shruggenheimer

[next orchid]

dont let me catch u doing it again

[vocal vale]

i usually call them upper cannons

is that acceptable

[next orchid]

the arm harness itself is the vambrace and the shoulder armor is the rearbrace (or espaules/pauldrons/spaulders/guardbrace/etc)

[next orchid]

yes

[vocal vale]

schway

[next orchid]

for just the forearm part though its called bracer (at least later on in the 16th century)

so the whole thing is just ridiculous

[terse bronze]

aye aye ! Ye olde handgonne !

[next orchid]

kill thee^

[terse bronze]

thou art something idk

[civic glade]

Wtf sre you talking about
Arm armor is called arm armor
Shoulder armor is called shoulder armor.
Everything else is mental illness

[next orchid]

no one was more mentally ill than the medievals. ergo, to be mentally ill is to be historically accurate

[humble pagoda]

Is this historically accurate in any way?

[turbid shadow]

yes

[thorny otter]

of course. I got very little idea on how it looks like elsewhere :))

[candid storm]

Anybody know what these long shoulder cloths are called?

[lone osprey]

god only knows what an authentic tailor called them but in a modern german clothing dictionary theyre referred to as Hängeärmel. ||not to be confused with so-called trumpet sleeves which also can have a slightly similar appearance in art due to how much fabric they have, or Leerärmel (havent seen them referred to in english but it literally just means empty-sleeves - the ones with slits in the middle for the arms to poke through the rest of the sleeve to hang down - in thousands of late medieval illustrations)||

[hallow hearth]

Does anyone have thw manuscript picture of thosse italian knights with the massive plumes

[robust tendon]

What’s odd to me is that people wore real harness to battle, not just sporting events
and they were fine. Maybe they were just more okay with injury than we are today, is that true?

without the insane amounts of padding too

[vocal vale]

there are several

[hallow hearth]

Well if you can drop some here that be great

[vocal vale]

Tournament-Battle of Louvezerp,
by Antonio Pisano known as Pisanello (pre-1395-ca 1455)
Fresco
Palazzo Ducale, Mantua
1440s

The Battle of San Romano
Paolo Uccello

and there’s another altarpiece that comes to mind that i can’t remember the name of right now

[pseudo comet]

Me and my friends

[pseudo comet]

If anyone needs it, I can post a photo of the costume and armor in more detail

don't speak English very well and I use a translator.

there are photos of white league tournaments in Russia. The White League is a society of gentlemen who develop the youth movement in Russia.

[sullen charm]

guy on the far right literally is willie

[pseudo comet]

This is Baron Harkonen.

https://youtu.be/HiWACAZaBUQ

[next orchid]

Real combat wasn't just bashing one another. The threat from someone mindlessly wacking is reduced by the threat of someone thrusting them and killing them. Being able to actually fight or march or ride with ease is more important than X% more protection from something that doesn't even matter. Being alive but wounded beats being dead due to exhaustion or being slow. It's why some guys fought with their visor up, and it's why some guys wore fingered gauntlets, despite that the fingers under of which could still be broken. It is probably not done because they think they can tank a thrust to the face, but because they (believe that they) can fight better.

But yes, they didn't care much about TBI's.

@robust tendon

Meant to reply lol

[robust tendon]

I see, thanks for the info
I had figured it was because of the way modern buhurt is fought vs the techniques in period and in a real battle

[fleet junco]

It was

[next orchid]

True

[next orchid]

Plus according to Pietro Monte, less armor is needed in actual battle due to there being less leisure to do what you want (because of needing to defend yourself), and less armor is needed on foot in general. For horseback, fewer lances are used in battle, and its basically the most powerful weapon available to the horseman in terms of force

[hallow hearth]

It had a horse and like less than 4 knights in it

Kinda cartoony in proportions

But the plumes stick out like crazy and are like three times the head size

[silver heart]

gorgeous brigandine

[lavish fable]

Школа ИСБ что-ли?(Зал вроде у Юна мелькал)

[vocal vale]

it’s a drawing by boris gauda of the guys in the first altarpiece

[fleet junco]

What did misterpisa say

[white fulcrum]

watch this get misconstrued as "people only wore armour for duels, and it was actually very rare that they'd wear it to battle!"

[toxic breach]

Saw this often .... usually on the basis that armor is extremely expensive hence it wouldnt appear on the battlefield

[robust tendon]

yeah it basically already exists with the “most people fought without armor” myth

send the peasants with pitchforks to die in waves!!

[toxic breach]

A lame claim ....

[vocal vale]

@hallow hearth

[hallow hearth]

Thank you

[fleet junco]

Who made these opium ornaments popular

[zenith forge]

unfathomably cool

[pseudo comet]

ДА

[hallow hearth]

doesnt matter they dope

[fleet junco]

Are you planning to model these

[hallow hearth]

ye

[fleet junco]

Amazing

[silver heart]

i used to clown on them but now i lowkey fw em

[fossil gorge]

relatable??

[robust tendon]

ai artwork is not a reference

[fossil gorge]

what bold statement!

i require a proof

and an apology for you're false assumption!

[haughty creek]

Your*

[fossil gorge]

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[robust tendon]

bowstring is uneven

armor design is typical of AI

[silver heart]

why would an archer ever wear this much armor😭

[robust tendon]

besides this was removed from the art channel before for being ai gen

[fossil gorge]

actually the string got stuck to his chest

[robust tendon]

...right

[fleet junco]

So relatable, i relate to the part when i use a bow in full plate armor while wearing a visor

[robust tendon]

a reverse image search shows this is supposedly by dmitry alexander

who posts ai artwork in the same style, or at least he has before

I can't seem to find the source of the image on his deviant art but each image search goes back to him

yeah actually each and every one of his posts, is in fact ai

[robust tendon]

lol, lmao https://www.deviantart.com/dmitryalexander/art/k-n-a-r-c-h-e-r-1004886994

straight up says it's ai

[twin narwhal]

the AI frog one goes hard tho, u cant lie

[fossil gorge]

so real

[fossil gorge]

haters keep hating

[robust tendon]

oh you're just taking the piss

nvm then, go on

[fossil gorge]

what bold statement!
i require a proof
and an apology for you're false assumption!

[twin narwhal]

your*

[robust tendon]

yuroe*

[twin narwhal]

yureo*

[humble pagoda]

Where is this Helm from?

[robust tendon]

I think the Army Museum in paris, it's 15th century

yep seems to be this one

[humble pagoda]

When do you think this was?

[terse bronze]

the manuscript if french, second half of the 15thC. however the equipement this guy is wearing is somewhat fantastical to play on the "orientalism"

[humble pagoda]

Ahh ok

Where can I find English Manuscripts? I can only discover french ones.

[terse bronze]

The gear will be sensibly similar if i'm being honest but look up for the Beauchamp Pageant it's prolly the most famous one

https://www.moddb.com/mods/dellarte-della-guerra/articles

you can also take a peep here

[next orchid]

flemish

[next orchid]

u dont

theres like 10 that were illuminated in england and only 3 are scanned and theyre in their own shitty museum websites

[terse bronze]

well yes

bit pedantic that one

[next orchid]

not pedantic

[terse bronze]

Extremely pedantic

look at this pedant haha

[next orchid]

👎

[terse bronze]

🫵 🍅

[toxic breach]

This is just not funny

[terse bronze]

wtf maximilian the 1st is in the chat with us??

[toxic breach]

Yes it me

[next orchid]

he sucked

[toxic breach]

Bro wth

[terse bronze]

that's still maximilian bud

ik you like being contrarian and allat but he's here with us!

[toxic breach]

Yes it's not kind to speak badly of someone in their presence

Only behind their back (in DMs)

[next orchid]

Pot calling kettle

Also Maximilian hated France

[terse bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/peaky-blinders-stand-still-gif-15015518

[terse bronze]

dnc about maximilian mang

but he's there

[toxic breach]

https://tenor.com/view/steven-van-zandt-silvio-dante-gif-22564892

[next orchid]

thomas shelby mafia sigma

[next orchid]

lmao

[terse bronze]

we need a peaky blinders HYW edition tbh

just a gang of ecorcheurs or somthing

[civic glade]

A fletched javelin

The armor is fakey fake tho

[vocal vale]

@twin narwhal @fossil gorge use this channel for its intended purpose, no ai or fantasy stuffs

thanks

[robust tendon]

Scottish Archer, the guard of Charles V c.1455

based on this

[fleet junco]

Historical

[vocal vale]

use this channel for its intended purpose

[toxic breach]

wizard hat

similar one exists ingame but this is higher peaked

[fleet junco]

Elvis boots

[lone osprey]

Was thinking about that one
Seems like probably good evidence that shields with big bosses were used in mid 15thc

[lone osprey]

although I've never actually seen a surviving example

I mean I get its an adoration of the magi and there could naturally be intentionally anachronistic/alla antique elements mixed in, but the whole thing / fouqet's style and the degree of detail seems to imply the equipment was all real

[lone osprey]

anybody got any detailed info maybe pictures from a book regarding those frontal parts of French sallets? the part over the forehead that looks articulated?

[white fulcrum]

it’s a reinforcement plate

[next orchid]

Fouqet literally uses archaisms elsewhere lol

Anyways even if we pretend this artwork should be taken 100% seriously, it'd be like, the only one

[lone osprey]

. . . hence me saying it could be intentionally anachronistic 👁️ 👁️ 👓

[lone osprey]

just articulate for comfort sake or something?

[next orchid]

probably just an easy way to double the forehead

for the image, could be mistake on the artist's part, or they omitted a bottom rivet, etc. or the armorer was weird

[next orchid]

"but the whole thing / fouqet's style and the degree of detail seems to imply the equipment was all real"
i was fighting this claim

i read what you said

[lone osprey]

interesting

[lone osprey]

just a possibility it is a possibility that fouqet's hyperrealism and the fact that none of the equipment or weapons of the soldiers otherwise indicate anachronism could mean the shields are authentic alternatively, could be played up and intentionally anachronistic ¯_(ツ)_/¯

[terse bronze]

sallet, second half of the 15thC. (Most likely approx. during the Burgundian Wars), found in Savoy

Repro made by Georges Jolliot

[vocal vale]

i feel like the reason it’s the only anachronism in the image is because it’s so recognizably antiquated that it gets the point across by itself

[vocal vale]

too late for the game

[silver brook]

?

[robust tendon]

it’s 17th century

iirc

so yes too late for the game

[silver brook]

oh

Im new to this

[robust tendon]

no worries

[zenith forge]

Still cool

Byeah wrong time

[vocal vale]

no worries, we have a lot of relatively productive conversation here so if you just stick around you’ll probably learn a thing or two over time

[silver heart]

more burgundian wars stuff in here is always neat, here’s some swiss kit

[thorny otter]

Always good to see some. Where is this guy coming from?

[vocal vale]

switzerland

[thorny otter]

😮

[young plaza]

He's posted a few times on the ArmsAndArmour subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/ArmsandArmor/s/1IsPui5yuN

[silver heart]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ArmsandArmor/comments/1ev5jmh/burgundian_wars_swiss_kit_update/

[silver heart]

damn i missed this one

[lone osprey]

Lol im pretty sure the adoration of the magi part sufficiently communicates anachronism

[vocal vale]

that too

but for anyone who may suspect that there was more than 1 long-gone instance of a magi being adored.. there ya go !!!1!

[toxic breach]

Extremely hard for being relatively simple. Think the hose is too baggy around the calves though

Or shoes just tight on the ankles

[lone osprey]

some notable examples of shields with bosses in the pastrana tapestries

really gets the noggin joggin

I dont actually think they were running around like this though seems too absurd

but yeah
those pastrana tapestries huh

[next orchid]

Flemish artist attempting to portray adargas

Not "good" source for equipment in the general sense

Good for knowing the "stereotypes" regarding Iberian equipment though, and it holds up well

[lone osprey]

cope

they clearly portray adargas in numerous instances

theyre clearly different lol

[lone osprey]

c o p e

the first image on the left has an obvious adarga

and even then the existence of the adargas with the central bosses is proof against the assumption that all depictions of 15th century shields with large bosses = only alla antiqua

also this is how fouquet does his alla antique lol

no bosses

[toxic breach]

Well I drew this

[lone osprey]

damn youre really skilled

[toxic breach]

Thx

[next orchid]

?

It's a Flemish artist

Ur the one coping for bossed 15th c. targes lol

[next orchid]

Literally all of the images you posted have adargas

But again, it's a Flemish artist, not an Iberian one

The details are scuffed

[turbid shadow]

really cool MS, thanks for sharing

[robust tendon]

there are also no extants with bosses in the fifteenth century, all the ones around do not have a boss

given how common targes were, you’d think there’d be at least one if they did have a boss from time to time

[turbid shadow]

https://digital.onb.ac.at/RepViewer/viewer.faces?doc=DOD_65511&order=1&view=SINGLE entire MS

[night kindle]

No way that’s crazy it really was you from the YT comments of that one video I replied to you as

wild

[robust tendon]

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/336162

[lone osprey]

hey thanks for finding
that single image was isolated on this cool austrian art image viewer
https://realonline.imareal.sbg.ac.at/

[lone osprey]

I never said targes lol I said shields

[terse bronze]

targes are shields

[lone osprey]

a specific type ya

[lone osprey]

I wish ONB would have an index of the illustrations with links like the Bodlein does

[toxic breach]

aw hell naw it's 1490 nvm!

lmao look at these cheeky cunts

[sullen charm]

cool little jousting painting i found

[toxic breach]

Looks 16th but hard

love the frogmouth + bare hose

[terse bronze]

that reads 1561 to me

[vocal vale]

targe is a more accurate word in-period iirc

[vocal vale]

reminds me of ostrich skin boots

[robust tendon]

interesting, a plackart with no backplate?

or perhaps the "hoqueton" (i hope i'm using that right) is over the backplate and bp but under the front of the plackart?

[toxic breach]

We will never know MAUAHHAHA

another piece showing that exemplar

[lone osprey]

depends on the specific context

romance speaking has escus

there is a spanish primary source written around 1430-40 that refers to an adarga interchangably as escudo and adarga

[vocal vale]

im not sure if that would work but its hard to "assemble" it in my head in the first place

[robust tendon]

yeah i'm kinda spitballing

it's probably just for the front

[vocal vale]

its not impossible but i would say its improbable that its a covered breastplate and there is no culet(?)

[robust tendon]

alternatively it could just be a standalone plackart

those do show up

[robust tendon]

perhaps maille underneath the hoqueton?

[vocal vale]

im iffy on that

[robust tendon]

well it does show up

[vocal vale]

im confused as to why to be honest

[robust tendon]

like the practicality?

[humble pagoda]

What is this armor shirt called

[vocal vale]

the only theory that's plausible (to me) is to cover more men overall by splitting the breastplate and the plackart effectively making one cuirass into protection for two people

[fleet junco]

Jupon

[vocal vale]

no

[fleet junco]

Tabard

[vocal vale]

also no

[robust tendon]

or just comfort i suppose

[fleet junco]

Surcoat

[robust tendon]

it could also just be a weird artist thing

[vocal vale]

those are both antiquated at this point and are associated with different mechanisms

[vocal vale]

catch-all yeah, the name kind of depends on where the MS is from

[robust tendon]

i think it's just a hoqueton/coat armor

[vocal vale]

@humble pagoda french MS?

[robust tendon]

kind of like how italians wear a giornea over the bp but under the plackart

but french (looks to be, anyway)

[vocal vale]

i've thought before that maybe it's like those studies where bikers who dont wear helmets bike safer than ones who do wear helmets, like it would both protect a man to some degree and give him mobility around the shoulders to an extent that would allow him to defend exposed areas with relative ease

but what's curious to me is how often its seen without any maille directly underneath

[robust tendon]

it is seen with maille too ofc

which i think is the most likely for that specific depiction

cause he's got leg harness, gorget...

[vocal vale]

hrnnrgh

[robust tendon]

you could pair it with a larger shield for a comfortable field kit

the shield would compensate for the lack of a bp

[lone osprey]

french have term journade

which some interpret as a similar garment

[robust tendon]

well yeah journade is iirc just the french word for the same thing italians wear

giorneas

[vocal vale]

ah really

that's cool

[lone osprey]

yeah exactly

[vocal vale]

giornea are loose and often dagged or the other word for the kind of decoration where its cut weirdly, also usually fairly long

not very close-fitting like a shirt anywhere but the BP

i would just call it a hoqueton considering its from france but i suppose "coat armor" works for anything as the english go-to

[lone osprey]

words and their cognates get weird applications in different contexts though. thats what makes names so confusing sometimes :/

and speaking oh hoqueton

Ive seen it get translated into more modern language as aketon which then just gets treated synonymously with gambeson!

like german Wams is also derived from gambeson too which I think just has an etymology meaning belly

[robust tendon]

aketons are entirely different lol

those are the things sometimes seen worn under maille as an arming garment

[lone osprey]

yet Ive seen a pro translate hoqueton (from a primary source) as aketon ¯_(ツ)_/¯

not to say its definitive or anything but adds to my personal confusion

when people do things like that lol

[robust tendon]

aketon usedly synonymously with gambeson is also fucked cause they're used for different things

gambeson is ofc a primary armor or sometimes supplemental to maille (worn over)

which aketons are not, at least not to the same degree

[prisma raven]

https://digital.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/objects/9e62854b-7dec-4087-b91d-1e0e89ae45d8/surfaces/2ba34e08-fe2a-443d-bfe2-3d878ff29778/