references♥_1450-1470

[wraith dew]

Coats of Arms must be collected

Whatchall got?

[sullen charm]

So cool

[sullen charm]

https://azgaar.github.io/Armoria/

You can make them here

And they generate randomly

[robust tendon]

MS Français 2609, ca. 1471

[sullen charm]

I know

[sullen charm]

Ok

[fleet junco]

These

[sullen charm]

will Armet helms or close helms (basically the same thing) be added into the game?

[sullen charm]

pretty sure they will at some point

armets and close helm by modern definition are quite different

[sullen charm]

i sure hope so armet helmets look badass

[turbid shadow]

Armets will be in the next update

[sullen charm]

i love you

[wraith dew]

Yes.

Bootaful

[vital pecan]

Ngl, the period already has firearms, but a handcannon is gonna be quite op in this game

[stuck pelican]

No rifling, it’s all smoothbore shotguns basically

[robust tendon]

Rouen 1444–1445

[prisma raven]

https://digital.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/objects/e16412ca-c8be-461a-86ac-de59c6464fe6/surfaces/f437e87c-8c96-4b39-98ce-a381658f01ce/

[vocal vale]

i love the way that sallet on the bottom left is drawn

[lucid epoch]

This gives me AI generated vibes for two of the pics

[vocal vale]

its sad that thats a thing we gotta even think now

[lucid epoch]

seriously 😭

[turbid shadow]

no

[short ice]

dystopia

[robust tendon]

98-2/ BnF, Français 22547, circa 1468-1470

Italian, 1475. According to source, anyway. Not much else was given

“Casque de Philippe le Beau”

Sallet in the franco-burgundian style

[robust tendon]

We ballin

[candid dawn]

Awyee keep up those awesome refs guys! 😄

[turbid shadow]

Sure

Heres some Great bascinet refsf

@candid dawn More armet refs for ya

[candid dawn]

niiiceee :#

:3

[turbid shadow]

'

[turbid shadow]

Np man

'

[stuck pelican]

WHAT!

SILLY IVAN?

[fleet junco]

Year is idk

[candid dawn]

https://tenor.com/view/limmy-window-windae-marrying-your-daughter-someone-at-your-window-gif-19872889

[candid dawn]

very 16th century

[stuck pelican]

The end is near..!

[fleet junco]

No its not

[robust tendon]

all antica stuff

[robust tendon]

he say my refs awesome

[fleet junco]

Add this ivan 🤬

[turbid shadow]

Late

Too late

[robust tendon]

maybe if we get 16th cent dlc

[fleet junco]

Mirror finish

[robust tendon]

speaking of armets, t visor armets

well, "visor"

[fleet junco]

red armet kinda reminds of a sallet wit the same color pallet

[torpid urchin]

Mirror finish overrated

Nice cuirass though

[robust tendon]

@sullen charm would you happen to know more about these? Are they just painted field harnesses?

[lone topaz]

i cant help but think of clone troopers when i see that

[terse bronze]

They are porcelain art pieces

Forgor the name of the artist but you Can find him easily online

[robust tendon]

i see

ty bossk

[terse bronze]

Np

[robust tendon]

love this one

[mortal rune]

Knight tomb in Santiago

[turbid shadow]

interesting, wanna find the full MS For this

https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/467786

Sir Richard Vernon, Tong, around c.1450.

[robust tendon]

funky sallet

[robust tendon]

golem president?

[turbid shadow]

if he was in half sword

@terse bronze @prisma raven

[terse bronze]

gawdamn

[fleet junco]

asymmetrical gorget

👍 very nice

[prisma raven]

Tavolette di San Bernardino, 1473, Galleria Nazionale Perugia

[robust tendon]

maxi visor pre 16th century?

[sullen charm]

no

[sullen charm]

wrapper(/bevor)

[fleet junco]

oh yeah

i forgot it was called that

[stuck pelican]

They look so stiff

[stuck pelican]

The envelope into the frogmouth is the best part

[vocal vale]

misread the name as Sir Richard Venom

[stark obsidian]

Rock

[sullen charm]

will schimitars or sabers be added into the game in the future? id really like to see them in the game but i have no idea if they are accurate to the era the game is set in,

[upper seal]

surely with Ottoman influence and such yes. But Western Europe I dunno

[vocal vale]

the best chance would be a polish sabre

[robust tendon]

it looks the same though

or very similar

[bright token]

it looks nice

hope this style of voulge appears in the game 😄

[sullen charm]

fucking love glaives

[bright token]

Some nice stuff i saved, could be useful for dev and fellow artists

[turbid shadow]

*** 1450-1452 Germany, Karlsruhe Landesbib., Cod. Lichtenthal 70 ***

[turbid shadow]

p2

[robust tendon]

not much armor in this one

[timber stone]

I have this book, it is from 1964 but features 128 pages of high quality photographs and illustrations of Western arms and armors between the 1100s and 1600s. If anyone is interested in it for references, let me know which chapter and subject.

I don't have a scanner so you'd have to make due with pictures off my phone hahah

I can turn my quality up tho

[robust tendon]

covered bps

[sullen charm]

found the pollaxe thing back yippee

[robust tendon]

Afaik they were present in eastern areas, i.e middle east and turkey, so on

But western europe no not really

Closest thing we have are falchions

Maybe if they do a post medieval dlc we will see them ;d

[robust tendon]

All’antica repros

[robust tendon]

pulling up to da tournament

[civic glade]

ive heard it said that it was sometimes done

does anybody have a ref of a sallet with a houndskull visor?

[sullen charm]

1445-1455 France, BNF Français 376 - Pelerinage de Vie Humaine

[torpid urchin]

@white fulcrum This is phenomenally clean
great job

[white fulcrum]

thank you buddy, i appreciate that

[sullen charm]

Oh damn that's for sure awesome gj red

[robust tendon]

gauntlets

and yet more

armet my beloved

gold man

[robust tendon]

assorted period art

[stuck pelican]

This about to be a fire reference to draw next day. I suck at drawing people head on so this gonna be awesome

[timber stone]

https://youtube.com/shorts/G4rnn7kZU9Y?si=tlFZYnPDPqH8sSDg

[robust tendon]

there really ought to be a pinned message here pointing people to good ref sites like Effigies&brasses and manuscript miniatures

[turbid shadow]

I think I’ve extracted everything from there

[robust tendon]

dang

yeah i don’t really find new stuff on there anymore, wish the date limit was like 1490-1500 or something

i mostly just get cool manuscripts and repros from pinterest now

[turbid shadow]

Facebook will keep you contained

[robust tendon]

for those i just gotta eyeball to see if it looks within the timeframe, sometimes the posters will be kind enough to include the MS name though

ye i’ve heard thats a good place but dunno where the pages you find the quality stuff are though

[turbid shadow]

join groups, people would post stuff that lead you to the Real good shit

and follow medieval advisor

1467 and 1490-1500, Germany, Karlsruhe, Cod. Ettenheim-Münster 11 - Chroniken

[obsidian sun]

Ive seen painted sallets but haven't seen many other helms painted, why?

[torpid urchin]

My guess is that nobody found a way to make it look good

Painted frogmouth would be based

[obsidian sun]

YES!
it's just odd like no painted visor or helmets besides sallets which ig makes sense as it's rounder?

[torpid urchin]

I doubt the accuracy of this but it looks pretty

Painted Greatbascinet

[obsidian sun]

It's historically plausible

[torpid urchin]

Of course it’s plausible, I just doubt it happened

[obsidian sun]

Meh I ask as I'm getting a klapvisor basinet and eventually a Brigidine in my family colors, but was thinking about painting the helm

[terse bronze]

Doesn't mean anything

[terse bronze]

Not very

[terse bronze]

iicr this one was painted later but my memory is blurry on that

[terse bronze]

Painted sallets are very rare, black sallets for instances were covered, not painted

There's sources for sallets, skullcaps and even bascinets if i remember correctly painted with a protective black oily-paint to protect it from the rust ect

Hence saving money on maintenance

Anyway, you do find plenty of helmets engraved, covered in textile and some rare examples were painted

(For instance during the 11-13thc we see in manuscripts quite a lot of [what seems to be] painted nasal helms, skullcaps, kettles, and greathelms)

But if we're talking purely 15thc (since it's the game's timeframe) it's very rare

[obsidian sun]

ah so early it was common thats neat to know!

[terse bronze]

the Maciejowski bible is the most well known manuscript shwocasing those

it's dated 1250~

[robust tendon]

pretty sure it was also done from time to time 16th, i remember a piece that was painted

several actually but not too sure

[terse bronze]

Yeah like that one owlfaced sallet with a human face on it

there's also a cabasset but many agrees that the paint was added later aswell

[robust tendon]

it is pretty strange that you see many of the "knight" or noble figures in the maciejowski bible with painted greathelms, yet you don't really see painted armor in later MS

I guess that's just because it fell out of fashion

[terse bronze]

seems like they prefered textile covering

and like, painted cuir bouilli maybe

[robust tendon]

ye, serves much more of a purpose than paint does

other than just fashion

[wispy jungle]

Duke of Normandy (15th century) - Grand Equestrian Armorial of the Golden Fleece

They had that dripp 🗣️🙏

[plucky haven]

Fr

[charred valley]

Bro he's looking fabulous

[torpid urchin]

did barred visors like this actually exist?

[wispy jungle]

Those type of helmets began to appear in 15th - 17th century

English, second half of 17th century
Steel, iron, pain

Mostly worn by peers / nobility

[wispy jungle]

it looks cool but very bad protection on the visor

Some more reference

I assume those helmets were mostly used for decorations in tournaments and nobles

[lyric tinsel]

Would have been used in the mêlée portion of the tournament, where combatants fought with blunt weapons like clubs.

[robust tendon]

Not necessarily

The grill visor was used for tourney combat where stabbing wasn't allowed

You also see perforated cuirasses for this reason

notably the one in the Livre des Tournois

particularly the one by René of Anjou

Note the flat tips in the second image

[lyric tinsel]

Yeah, thats the melee I refer to.

[terse bronze]

Behourt player, french speaking area 1460s

By Eol

[robust tendon]

Is behourt just another way of spelling buhurt?

or something else entirely

[terse bronze]

the french way yes

[robust tendon]

I figured so

also kind of unrelated but how likely do you think it in like 1250 they would have worn plated surcoats? I say 1250 because of the maciejowski bible ms, it seems odd that the knightly/noble figures wear riveted greathelms but not supplemental plate anywhere else, except for i think the depiction of goliath who has shin plate

[terse bronze]

hard to quantify but it seemed that when coat of plates appeared (1240-50ish) they were looking pretty obvious

tho the thought of having a cop corselet under the surcoat is surely plausible i'd guess

it's just impossible to quantify

it's just that when coat of plates are obviously shown in art, they look very much like riveted surcoats yknow

[robust tendon]

ye

i guess it was sometimes done but not always

tho i’d think a knight/man at arm would prefer the plating to not be obvious

for fashion and obviously that an opponent would avoid striking the more protected area

[robust tendon]

yeah here it’s definitely a lot more obvious

I also suppose it depends on location

Certain things are more popular in certain areas ofc

[candid dawn]

Is there any good refrence for middle english spoken around? 🙂

[robust tendon]

I think someone on youtube has english accents from different periods, i think probably also one from the game’s period

don’t remember the video name though unfortunately ;d

[turbid shadow]

https://youtu.be/U2FdJKVFCvU

[pearl hull]

for a second i thought he was speaking german

[pearl hull]

the last bit lol

[terse bronze]

Sounds an awful lot like modern day scottish lmfao

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NB2Z6pZBNA

at 1min

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HLhbB7HwLGg

[turbid delta]

Peak style.

[turbid delta]

Not wearing sabatons seems like a really good way to have someone stab you in the foot with a pole arm.

[torpid urchin]

Are couters like this strapped directly onto the arm, or are they part of a larger arm assembly?

[robust tendon]

hmmm i’m not sure actually

I think directly onto the arm

though probably differs between harnesses, @terse bronze would prob know more maybe ;d

[terse bronze]

stfu

(sorry)

[terse bronze]

and laced, they are called floating couters

[robust tendon]

if you’re foolish maybe

You kinda have to telegraph the hell out of that type of move

[terse bronze]

such a non-issue, please don't engage

[robust tendon]

i like talking about medieval stuff

[terse bronze]

yeah but that's just stupid

lets talk about his flower besagews tho...

yummy...

[robust tendon]

ye, same ballpark as grabbing a crest hehe

love me some flower besagews

[turbid delta]

Alright

[white fulcrum]

WHO IS STABBING AT FEET BRO

[robust tendon]

also the cinnamon roll design, i i think i’ve posted an effigy with the design in question

Swirly besagews

[turbid delta]

Me, I would

And get stabbed in the process

[white fulcrum]

seems like a good way to be distracted from literally everything else happening on the field

[white fulcrum]

only way it’ll end tbh

[terse bronze]

Also just saying that this harness, as you can see by the grills, if for HEMA/Harnischfechten so stabbing the feet really doesn't make any gram of sense anyway

and that doesn't stop the guy from having a pair of sabatons for when he ride

or not

[turbid delta]

Hey man I may be dead but at least I ain't walking with a limp

[terse bronze]

really not that important anyway

[white fulcrum]

me when I have no limp because I grapple you before you can aim

[robust tendon]

The reason it was sometimes a thing to wear full harness without sabatons is same reason some men at arms liked to have open faced helmets with full harness, comfort and personal preference

[terse bronze]

me if I was a rich woman

[robust tendon]

And it isn’t easy to stab gaps

[white fulcrum]

guys only want one thing and it’s disgusting

[turbid delta]

That's why I imagine you beat them until they fall over and then use some kind of short stabe oriented weapon to get under their armor.

[terse bronze]

waiter! waiter! more 15thc francosphere armor please!

[white fulcrum]

could also use the MACE to CRUSH THROUGH THEIR ARMOUR!!!!

(joking)

[turbid delta]

That's what I imagine you're beating them with

[white fulcrum]

lmao no

[robust tendon]

me

[robust tendon]

[white fulcrum]

maces are mostly cavalry in the 15th century

[turbid delta]

I'm actually unaware of what made for decent weapons other than polearms, usually halberds.

[white fulcrum]

can’t really get enough force with a mace to hurt them unless you hit the head hard or the hands

[robust tendon]

use le mace to ignore le plate armor

[robust tendon]

Pollax, but that was mostly a tool to make an armored man vulnerable

Longsword is also a decent choice

[turbid delta]

Figured that was more a status thing than an actual weapon

[robust tendon]

both

[white fulcrum]

nah people used longswords

[turbid delta]

Feel like chopping at plate and maile seems kinda pointless

[white fulcrum]

yep

[robust tendon]

They’re seen as noble weapons and useful as sidearms

[white fulcrum]

which is why you stab

[turbid delta]

Then again that's if it's another guy in something other than cloth and maybe maile

[white fulcrum]

(halfswording the sword helps)

[robust tendon]

afaik many men at arms preferred an estoc/longsword alongside a lance while mounted

[white fulcrum]

but usually you’d want to use a pollax or smth yes

[robust tendon]

And probably a third arm as well

[white fulcrum]

yeah and estocs were requirements for cav in some ordinances

[robust tendon]

maybeans a mace, since horse is a good force multiplier

[turbid delta]

Talking about this kind of stuff really makes me want to try HEMA but there's no places for it where I live so I'm SOL.

[terse bronze]

Arguable maces (moreso during the late 15th-16th) were the "status showing" weap tbh

Swords are a jack of all trades

They were used extensively by pretty much everyone

[white fulcrum]

same :(

[robust tendon]

it’s probably also important to note that not everyone is going to be wearing full harness, hence why swords make for excellent weapons for everyone

that and their versatility

[white fulcrum]

yeah iirc they were held by lords or barons or something I forgor

[robust tendon]

ease of carry too, can have it alongside pollax when on foot

[terse bronze]

(to note that often, estoc just means generic longsword)

[robust tendon]

yeah, i think it just means pokey sword

An estoc could be an arming sword as well, estoc d’armes iirc

[terse bronze]

sometimes they just describe it as "A good stiff sword that is solid but not too much"

[white fulcrum]

mace on horse is great

[turbid delta]

Yeah it'd would probably work way better against robbers and general assholes who are trying to kill you. Probably because they're poor and can't afford proper armor.

[terse bronze]

But swords are also pretty awesome against armored opponents

when you know what you're doing

[white fulcrum]

they just didn’t use specific terminology, we have to assume from what they describe the sword as, right?

[terse bronze]

and you're also wearing armor

[robust tendon]

I think for judicial duels they had a polearm, longsword and dagger

[tight sand]

Red and Bossk u guys were kicked from mord discord??

[robust tendon]

Longswords are both status and function

[terse bronze]

Yeah pretty much, every now and then you see stuff like "épée bastarde" / "épée a passot" which really doesn't help because it could mean anything

[white fulcrum]

a dude that got levied would probably benefit from a polearm or something but a trained dude would be better off with a sword

[terse bronze]

Yeah

[tight sand]

lol

[white fulcrum]

bossk got banned I just left

bitch ass place anyways lol

[turbid delta]

I just figured they'd be kinda pointless against layered plate armor.

[robust tendon]

layered? Well usually it was just the plate

Sometimes maille

[terse bronze]

You don't strike the plate like a moron

[robust tendon]

But usually just voiders

[terse bronze]

that's not what it's made for

[white fulcrum]

most of the time you have plate, then underneath an arming coat with maille voiders

[tight sand]

why did they do this lol.

[robust tendon]

i’m also banned there, silly mods

[terse bronze]

they figured bossk was my alt

[white fulcrum]

angry manchildren mods

[turbid delta]

I'm thinking of transitional armor, like the gambesons under maille under plate

[tight sand]

Longsword is really very effective against plate armor

[robust tendon]

well at most i think transitional period men at arms had aketon and then maille to fill gaps

[white fulcrum]

ah no, people didn’t wear layers like that

[robust tendon]

if not just a tunic

[tight sand]

longsword and estocs which i think is the same thing

[white fulcrum]

gambeson wouldn’t really be worn under plate

[robust tendon]

thick gambeson was a standalone thing

[terse bronze]

Unless you're talking about jupons, gambesons weren't worn under plate armor, or even maille tbh

or worn OVER maille

[turbid delta]

Huh. What am I thinking of.

[robust tendon]

I think lightly quilted garment was a thing

But nothing like a thick layered gambeson

[terse bronze]

That pretty much lost all of it's "padding" by the mid 15thc

[robust tendon]

more so for comfort than protection

[tight sand]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY0E7CCslQc really recommend to watch this video

[robust tendon]

yeah

[terse bronze]

if not only at the shoulders for comfort yea

[robust tendon]

arming doublets insead

which were just shirts

[turbid delta]

I'm thinking of some kind of padded undershirt with a hauberk over it and plate ontop, not full plate, just a cuirass.

[robust tendon]

like a breastplate and arm harness?

[white fulcrum]

I’ve been hearing people like cannon fodder say he isn’t the best but honestly I don’t mind

[turbid delta]

Yeah

[terse bronze]

thats already better yeah, by the 1360ish

[white fulcrum]

it’s not like he’s talking about things with the arrogance of shad or something

[robust tendon]

Maille would certainly help but tbh it’s not going to be much better than plate

sh*diversity

[white fulcrum]

and he seems well educated in most regards

[white fulcrum]

14th century has the closest of what you’re thinking of

[tight sand]

yeah and he is very open minded and the way they spar i think its the closest we can have to how it was

[turbid delta]

It'd be about the late 1300s yeah.

As cercy described, it'd be pretty much a breastplate and arm harness.

I'm pretty sure I'm thinking of late 1300s harness.

[robust tendon]

i’ve barely seen shad’s stuff but i can’t take him seriously seeing that “brigandine” he has

ugly ass larp armor

[turbid delta]

Just kinda looks like a more modern rendition of a coat of plates to me.

Not sure why he wears is constantly

[robust tendon]

regardless it looks like shit

[turbid delta]

Why, is it shittilly made or just inaccurate

[white fulcrum]

his maille is pretty bad too, so is the rest of his “armour”

[white fulcrum]

both tbh

badly fitted and shaped

[robust tendon]

Bro just look at this

The fuckin stance too

[turbid delta]

Yeah

[robust tendon]

Makes this even funnier

[turbid delta]

Yeah I see it lmao

[white fulcrum]

god

[robust tendon]

it’s like he thinks that shit is cool

[white fulcrum]

anyways that’s all without saying how bad he actually is with history

[turbid delta]

The fucking bracers and pauldrons are what makes it look dumber

[white fulcrum]

yep

[robust tendon]

i only watch metatron for history people

[white fulcrum]

brigandine bracers…

[tight sand]

ayo what a man

[robust tendon]

he seems like he knows his stuff

[tight sand]

burgundian armor

[torpid urchin]

Finest Indian-wrought cuirass on nauticalmart

[robust tendon]

Nautical mart

[white fulcrum]

I like scholagladiatoria but I remind myself to take what he says not wholly seriously

[robust tendon]

metatron and modern history tv seem like the best guys youtube wise

[torpid urchin]

It’s a shame knyght errant doesn’t upload

Great videos

[white fulcrum]

he’s a good guy it’s just he can be wrong often enough to be dubious of him

[tight sand]

Metatron is good when he talks about races and etc

but armor

idk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5Qb_aeCwL4

[white fulcrum]

I haven’t heard too much great about metatron when it comes to arms and armour

but modern history tv is the goat

[robust tendon]

hmmmm i like him though ;d

[terse bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/luger-gun-shoot-gif-15175592

[robust tendon]

he’s entertaining

[white fulcrum]

I like robinswords and zac evans

smaller creators but very good

I hate that long haired glasses dude that rates armours tho

[torpid urchin]

REAL

[white fulcrum]

my blood boils whenever I see his shorts

YouTube shorts I mean

[tight sand]

oh this guy

[terse bronze]

i have no idea of who you're talking about

[white fulcrum]

bro I had to argue him and like 5 other people about blunt weapons against armour

[tight sand]

the guy says mace is the most effective weapon against plate if i am not mistaken

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/eeX5NFjAKa0'

this mfs

[torpid urchin]

His ass is still using Minecraft terminology for armor

[white fulcrum]

bring upon death

[white fulcrum]

LMAO YEAH

dawg I have no idea what conventions he rates armour on

[terse bronze]

ok yeah i don't know who that guy is

[white fulcrum]

he calls the most dogshit high fantasy armour a 10/10

[terse bronze]

in general i avoid arms and armour stuff, in particular shorts, on ytb cuz it's infuriating the the comments are worse

[white fulcrum]

yep

[tight sand]

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/aMUK8l7tFuQ have u heard about this guy

[turbid delta]

Frankly I wouldn't want to get beaten with a blunt object with armor or without but frankly being stabbed through the armpit or neck seems worse.

[white fulcrum]

I don’t watch him but I’ve heard he’s not great either

[white fulcrum]

as long as you protect your head and hands you’re good

and even if you can’t defend your head then it’s not like any hit will concuss

[tight sand]

i remember he said that swords are bad against a guy in harness and stuff like that

[white fulcrum]

oh my god another one of them

[tight sand]

i think mace is really good against mail

[white fulcrum]

oh yeah for sure

[turbid delta]

Isn't that what padding/ a coif is for

[white fulcrum]

maces were much more used pre 15thc because they were better against maille

unprotected ofc you could really damage a dude with a mace on foot

[white fulcrum]

not solely for that but part of

but like while it does help protect you’re still vulnerable to concussions and getting knocked out

if you let a dude hit you with strength

temples I think are weaker areas of the helmet so getting hit there would effect you more @terse bronze am I right?

[tight sand]

there are some writing where the mace one shot guys in full harness but its more an exception

[torpid urchin]

https://youtu.be/i_RunwNoKUw?si=M0hoW5TDTN6iJ-Dn

[terse bronze]

depends from helmet to helmet but in general I think so

[turbid delta]

Every man should strive to fight his buddy paul in full harness in the Swedish country side

[white fulcrum]

yeah that makes sense

[white fulcrum]

I wish that was me and vro

[white fulcrum]

headshots go crazy when you swing with full force that’s undeniable

[turbid delta]

Get the entire server in a big ass field and fight until you hit the ground that'd be badass

[white fulcrum]

guaranteed mfs will bring maces thinking it’ll do something

[tight sand]

"In this battle a French Captain turned to face me because I killed two of his brothers on the
battlefield, and we fought in the middle of the two camps armed as men at arms with some iron
maces that I brought out. The Frenchman, seeing the weight of them, threw his to the ground,
being unable to wield it well, and seized hold of an estoc and lunged at me, thinking that I would
not be able to wield the mace either. He stabbed me through the tasset and wounded me, and I
then struck him on the armet with the mace and I sank it into his head, from which he fell down
dead."

• Diego García de Paredes, Chrónica del Gran Capitán, 1584

[turbid delta]

Yeah but the person you're fighting isn't going to be giving you a good enough opening to get a hit that hard

[white fulcrum]

yep

[white fulcrum]

ofc

that’s one of the things people don’t understand

you won’t get the chance to swing that hard in most cases

[turbid delta]

Either that guy was built like a tank or that was one shitty armet.

(Or it was a big ass mace)

[tight sand]

yeah like with mace u have limited variation of attacks and its easier to block

[white fulcrum]

maybe he hit close to the nape, I believe thatd be a weaker point if the armet dude didn’t have a rondel protecting the nape

[tight sand]

i think armet by itself is to tight to the head

[white fulcrum]

but that’s my theory on how it insta killed I don’t think it to be truth

[turbid delta]

If he did die instantly it's more likely he was hit with such force that it broke his neck or skull rather than actually sinking the mace into the helmet.

[obsidian sun]

Probably caved the side of the helmet

[tight sand]

dont need to broke neck or skull to kill the guy

just a weak spot in the head

and u are done

[terse bronze]

I suspect this account to be relatively romanticized tbh but that's just my opinion

[obsidian sun]

Granted concussions are very possible and can be lethal

[obsidian sun]

^

[turbid delta]

Yeah but it's strange, because according to his own testimony he was JUST stabbed, that would be a hell of a lot of force while in pain/bleeding

To actually cave in his helmet.

[white fulcrum]

yeah that’s always a possibility

[tight sand]

agree with that

[obsidian sun]

Adrenaline is a hellova thing

[turbid delta]

I guess, but you're still stabbed.

[white fulcrum]

orcbolg dm me I can’t dm you

[turbid delta]

Also you guys are gonna have to forgive me if I say something stupid, I don't know very much about armor, harness, or weapons, so I'll certainly say something stupid or wrong

[robust tendon]

most definitely

[obsidian sun]

Nah it's fine there is much everyone can still learn, admitting the lack of knowledge is a good step to learning

[robust tendon]

i don’t think you can easily sink a mace into an armet

[white fulcrum]

you’re a respectable guy dw lol

[robust tendon]

an armet, which would have been made with quality steel ofc

[white fulcrum]

people have said much stupider things with more confidence

[robust tendon]

probably bs

[turbid delta]

Well there's some truth, presumably he did kill or mortally wound the guy but as you said I doubt he actually sunk the mace into the armet.

[robust tendon]

i’ve said this before but the only fantasy armor i’ve really enjoyed in the past is warhammer fantasy

The empire looks fucking dope as hell, vaguely early modern germans fighting off daemons with greatswords

[obsidian sun]

Perhaps a pointed mace could stand a chance to focus the force into the side to deliver a fatal blow but it depends on the style of mace and style of the armet

[torpid urchin]

[turbid delta]

Well unfortunately the dude did not go into specifics about how he smashed a dudes head in with an iron mace.

[obsidian sun]

A lot of sources are vague especially during the Medieval ages

[sullen charm]

I won guys

Not in game but in life

[vocal vale]

i'd be happy to hear in #general-catfish-🐱🐟 , dawg

[torpid urchin]

Great bascinets are in period so I’m allowed to post this

Fantastic illustration by mull

[terse bronze]

There is no greatbascinets in this picture

[stuck pelican]

Have you ever done boxing

[turbid delta]

No, I don't think slamming someone's head into a bus window because they pissed me off and getting socked in the jaw in return counts.

No I haven't tried boxing.

[stuck pelican]

Why the hell did you commit battery on somebody instead of just asking them to stop

[turbid delta]

To be fair we were and still are friends. And also we both don't remember what we were pissed off about.

[stuck pelican]

ok because I can’t use that example, have you ever fell off something with a helmet

[turbid delta]

Also no.

[stuck pelican]

your life is… boring!

[turbid delta]

I know

[stuck pelican]

Basically if you do combat sports, they usually give you a protective helmet

This minimizes the impact so you don’t have brain damage by like 25

[turbid delta]

Yeah I know that

[stuck pelican]

Then above that, imagine you have a entire motorcycle helmet or dirt bike helmet over it

Then get hit in the head. Your going to “feel” it. But your not really going to feel it

It’s not going to hurt, it’s going to be like a knock on the head

[turbid delta]

You'll know you've been hit but you aren't going to feel the actual impact

[stuck pelican]

You feel the impact, it just won’t really hurt or concuss you

Unless they’re literally on horseback with some heavy item

Your going to be fine

[turbid delta]

So would the under-helmet in this scenario be the maille and padding, while the motorcycle helmet would be the actual helmet?

[stuck pelican]

You would NOT have maille under a helmet

You will just have the equivalent of beads pressed into your skull after a impact

[turbid delta]

Oh right it was normally a like an aventail.

[stuck pelican]

(More pain)

[stuck pelican]

Basically

The helmet on itself already takes a bunch of the impact

The padding now dampens it

[turbid delta]

So in other words maces don't do nearly as much as people say they do.

[stuck pelican]

Maces do hardly as much damage as people say

your better off using a poleaxe

literally anything with a stick and weight at the end

[turbid delta]

The true knight's weapon

The Hammer-Axe-Spear

The Poleaxe.

[stuck pelican]

As the length of the stick gives it basically a way larger swing for that item to hit, rather than arm length for that item to hit

Also speed is a big part

[turbid delta]

Yeah but what do you do if they manage to push your weapon out of the way and close to a distance where you can't hit them with the end

[sullen charm]

hi

ok bye

[turbid delta]

(And can't back up to regain the distance)

[stuck pelican]

You elbow them with the fucking stick or knee thek or hook them with the end of the stick

Also pushing a fast swinging weapon is hard

[turbid delta]

Huh, I hadn't thought of just using the pole as a weapon

[stuck pelican]

Some poles had actual hooks at the end

Would be nasty if they get that into your groin 🤣

[turbid delta]

I feel like a spike would be a little more effective

[stuck pelican]

They could have both

[white fulcrum]

also it’s important to note the pollax is capable of generating the force needed to actually do the damage because it’s used with two hands

but I think I said that earlier

[white fulcrum]

yeah you can use it to grapple, disarm, lock the opponents arms, knock the opponent

etc etc

[turbid delta]

I've noticed that generally for a weapon to be effective it requires two hands, whether it be half-swording or polearms.

[tight sand]

i wear helmet every sparring but still i became autistic cuz of it

[tight sand]

depends on the opponent to be honest. Some mf hits hard asf and talking from my experience i was able to stun people with one hit and i am not the biggest person

and in comparison to helmets like armet. Boxing helmets especially with visors consist of padding while armet for example sitting tight to ur head

but yeah i still think that long sword or pole axe are way more effective than mace.

because just protecting ur head is way easier than weak points in ur armor

"For anyone in a fight on horseback, who fears that he will be struck with great blows by a club,
it is good to insert under the helmet one very thin cassis (helm), which should be tempered and
it should be folded double in whatever direction, and it should not be broken or let itself be
pierced easily, and in this way, and in this way even if the helmet is broken, this cassis does not
allow us to feel a blow on the head."

• Pietro Monte, Exercitiorum Atque Artis Militaris Collectanea, 1509

and its not like every hit to the head with mace can deal damage

[sullen charm]

everything here is out of period 💔

[turbid delta]

Now I may not be an expert, but that looks like a hounskull/klappvisor bascinet and not a great bascinet.

[sullen charm]

yea there aren't any great bascinets in there

just regular, not-so-great bascinets

which are out of period

[turbid delta]

Wouldn't it be like the mid 1300's

[sullen charm]

about there yea

bit odd to choose that image in particular because

like. mull has drawn great bascinets before

[turbid delta]

So Great bascinets are just bascinets with some kind of extension that covers the neck?

[sullen charm]

practically

could be affixed to the cuirass to provide nigh total neck protection

obviously did limit your ability to look around and whatnot

but better than having your neck poked out

[turbid delta]

Yeah I would imagine so

[obsidian sun]

Bascinets my beloved only second to the venerable kettlehelm

[robust tendon]

Was ofc up to preference

I’d think they were primarily cavalry helms, but the english are pretty well known for using them on foot for a little while

[torpid urchin]

I had to think really hard about the one on the bottom left to convince myself that I can post it here, just because it looks lovely

[turbid shadow]

you lie

[terse bronze]

Hounskull refers to the visor shape only, klappvisor to the visor mounting point, in no way they are used to define a "type" of helmet

[turbid delta]

Oh okay I see

[terse bronze]

(hounskulls can be on armets; and bascinets can have klappvisor mounted hounskulls for instance)

[turbid delta]

Yeah I get it, one of just a style of visor and the other is a visor mounting system

[terse bronze]

just hammering it down with examples, it's always useful

[turbid delta]

Indeed, never bad to give examples.

[tawdry ginkgo]

I'm so happy to hear that there's another kettlehelm enthusiast

[obsidian sun]

Of course who couldn't love the simple stuff that the milita men used, it and the basic Cap are great

Would English arm harnesses be in period

[torpid urchin]

https://tenor.com/view/angai313-spongebob-sad-spongebob-crying-gif-21679826

[fleet junco]

More hat

[tawdry ginkgo]

Minimalism at it's finest

You need nothing more

[tawdry ginkgo]

Shit I meant to respond to this

[obsidian sun]

All g

And agreed the fancy stuff is nice but if you're only going to war once in like maybe a decade you don't need a fancy Armet or something when a simple helm which you could get for cheap would work, plus id like to imagine in the 1500s you'd still find helmets from the 1300s on the field

[tawdry ginkgo]

I'd assume that would be possible

I sure as hell wouldn't care what I'm wearing as long as it helps keep me from being mortally wounded or killed

Especially if it costs considerably less

[sullen charm]

you really wouldn't

obviously some designs stick around

but you're not going to see, say- a regular old bascinet during the late 14th centry

let alone 15th century

[obsidian sun]

It would be highly unlikely that one of the older designs last that long or are not altered/recycled by said times

[robust tendon]

yeah you certainly would not see this

The only way you’d possibly use handed down arms or armor is maybe a few years difference at best. 1300s to 1500s is an insane amount of time for items to either fall into disrepair (which they likely would especially if you are a regular soldier who went to war once) or just be sold off. for the average soldier that would be chosen to fight in the first place, new equipment would be bought.

Designs don’t really stick around when they fall out of fashion or are replaced by better things

As for nobles this isn’t even a question as they are expected to fight a lot of the time and have the means to procure contemporary equipment

[vocal vale]

i know a guy with a similar cuirass

[turbid shadow]

it doesn’t fit the time period

[torpid urchin]

Ffs

[turbid shadow]

not everything you find fits on the time period for HS

[torpid urchin]

I know, I’m just surprised this doesn’t

Is it too late?

[turbid shadow]

yes

[white fulcrum]

here’s a rule of thumb for German looking stuff: if it has slashed clothing (like hats or sleeves), it’s 16th century

also, stuff like that cuirass (in regards to fluting and shape) is also more 16th century

[woeful imp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5E4607cWQaM

[torpid urchin]

This really helps

[woeful imp]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj1Fbrsm2Hw

pls add lunges to the game. Currently all movement is via walking. All weapon attacks occur without footwork. Lunges would allow for stabs that cross long distances via leg movement.

double clicking a movement direction should be enough for proper lunge-style footwork.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q823SF5QTbk

these are must-watches for understanding how better footwork can be implemented

[turbid shadow]

having rapier footwork on the game would be silly, as the weapon itself doesn't fit the time period.

with that said, they are gonna be working on something like this, just not in the forum of what you sent

[white fulcrum]

how exactly do you think this will work with the footwork that the game is striving for

plus rapiers dont even fit the time period so

[woeful imp]

double click forward movement button = lunge forward. All historical sword fighting and even things like spears and axes involve a step forward to maximize distance. You're blinkered if you think it's not everywhere and very important

Dunno what people are smoking in this discord when they say lunging wasn't a thing

or that it can't be implemented

[white fulcrum]

imo that might be screwy with the rest of how the physics work in the game

[woeful imp]

it's just a very long step forward

[woeful imp]

how so?

[white fulcrum]

dunno what you're smoking when you say people deny lunging existed??

[white fulcrum]

so do you know how buggy swords are

and how messy the clipping is with a lot of things

when you lung, i think that it might have problems with clipping through sheathed items, and not only that but how much of the lunge should be animated? prone to physics?

the part im most concerned with is the end part, where your character needs to get back up

or like, get back to a standing position

with how the system is rn it seems rough

[woeful imp]

? it's a torso tilt + step. Practically identical to movements that already already exist in game, such as getting up from prone, leaning forward when alt stabbing, stepping forward, etc. I don't see how it could be harder to implement than any of these

clipping is an issue of speed of physics objects and how that can 'skip' collision hitboxes between frames

A lunge would not necessarily cause more issues than a fast swing with high sensitivity. It'd be managed in the same way that normal swings get managed.

[wraith dew]

I Have come to collect more C.O.A.'s, What has the land prepared?

[ripe estuary]

The issue I see is possibly with recovering your initial stance due to the current physics as it’s very easy to end up ass over teakettle if you end up tilting or leaning at all

But I do agree lunges and thrusting should be a mechanic

[turbid delta]

That and I've found that stabbing with swords can be sort of finicky and it's about a 50/50 if it even does any damage.

[bright token]

Effigy of Peter von Stetenberg found on Pinterest. Is this considered late kastenbrust armou?

[terse bronze]

Yes

/early gothic

[torpid urchin]

Does anyone have anything on men‘s civilian fashion during the halfsword time period?

[fleet junco]

ive got you

akamy

[torpid urchin]

https://tenor.com/view/agiota-bob-esponja-gif-25145823

[white fulcrum]

chaperons, houppelandes, bicockets, doublets, scheckes, pointy shoes

those are just some things I can come up with

check out hilda amphlett’s “Hats: A History of Fashion in Headwear”

I think that was the name of the book I read

yeah it was

you should be able to read through the whole thing for free on google books or smth @torpid urchin

[bright token]

Nice statue, I have been using some of statues as armour ref lol

Love the fluted bevor on the third guy

[sullen charm]

first ones face is a yikes

[torpid urchin]

the fivehead

[vocal vale]

2nd and 4th ones are beautiful

[bright token]

Fr fr

[torpid urchin]

this is the outfit i've decided upon

what should the hat be?

[white fulcrum]

i think a bycocket would be pretty dope on that guy

[torpid urchin]

I will do this

[white fulcrum]

you go buddy

[robust tendon]

steed

[torpid urchin]

sallarmet

[vocal vale]

que bossk making fun of you for associating visors with helmets

[robust tendon]

kinda looks more like a bicoque

actually no it's an armet

[terse bronze]

Point and laugh

[vocal vale]

bicoques are armets, they split in two

although its a bit hazy on what makes a bicoque a bicoque

[torpid urchin]

https://tenor.com/view/tenor-skyblock-roblox-romance-romantic-gif-6136369269786468453

[fleet junco]

crecy stop reposting the same thing

stop the repoist 😡

no repost exaninma to half

[robust tendon]

No

this wasn't posted here, nerd

[fleet junco]

Medieval footsoldier

[robust tendon]

does not look good

[terse bronze]

wow that's ass

[robust tendon]

so true bossk

[torpid urchin]

Historically accurate 21st century Indian knight

[vocal vale]

why do they always have stupid gibbon arms

how hard is it to make them normally proportioned

[fleet junco]

🤫

its larp, they dont know how to make it so you can move properly in it

[sullen charm]

[stuck pelican]

How are these so pristine and beautiful to this day

I would expect the straps to be wilted and torn up

[robust tendon]

guhhhhhh

It’s a reproduction after a 1470 painting of st michael ;d

Smith used this one

[stuck pelican]

I first through he had slammed a sword through the side of his head

[robust tendon]

It does look like that, lol

[stuck pelican]

He had enough 😭

[civic glade]

Like nascar? Formula 1?

[tight sand]

yeah

[civic glade]

I kinda doubt it

[tight sand]

no u are mistaken and i am always right

[obsidian sun]

What's the general thoughts here of Forge of Svens work?

[robust tendon]

I have not seen it

[terse bronze]

garb

buhurt shit

[obsidian sun]

Two of the things I'm planning to get for medieval sports, admittedly the bascinet isn't that pointed

[robust tendon]

Bascinet ain’t the worst but this doesn’t look good

[obsidian sun]

Tbh the only reason I'm getting it is the swappable visors, which includes a wolfrib, hounskul, and pigface

Plus I love a 1/4 pattern Brigidine that's a front opener

[fleet junco]

Get this one

[obsidian sun]

The friendship brigidine

[patent halo]

That bacinet looks like it would suffocate you to death before your enemy has a chance to kill you

[lapis hamlet]

Some bascinets with textile coverings. Between 1380 and 1400.

[obsidian sun]

That's not the visor I'd use but it would be annoying to breath in but wouldn't suffocate you

[patent halo]

I was overexaggerating but yeah it looks very hard to breath in imo

[robust tendon]

these are nice, out of period for the game though

[robust tendon]

it’s a little annoying to breathe in but not that bad

[obsidian sun]

Tbh a sallet with bevor can be hard to ass well

[obsidian sun]

Love me some covered bascinets

[terse bronze]

the worst part aint even the holes but the strap closing the visor shut lol

typical buhurt safety thing

a real klappvisor would be different

[obsidian sun]

How would they normally lock? A hole and pin?

[terse bronze]

they wouldn't

[terse bronze]

they would "lock" with the klapp's mechanism friction

but that's not really "lock"

since that's a pretty bad idea tbh

[terse bronze]

like how visors can stay up "open" without falling back

same concept

[obsidian sun]

I think I know what your talking about how they would be able to "lock" upwards or down with a elongated slit, which I wish there was a less intrusive way to secure the helmet but buhurt and medieval sports want to avoid facial wounds

[pearl peak]

Basically practicality rules on the battlefield, but for modern combat sports it's largely saftey above all else.

[fleet junco]

you can stab people

you want to conceal a rondel dagger

make sure its behind your cuisse

and you can just start stabbing

[terse bronze]

?

[fleet junco]

I think this looks cool

[turbid shadow]

something looks off

[fleet junco]

The bevor?

[terse bronze]

it's a drawing(?) of a kit

not the best

supposed to be hungary's black army apparently

[civic glade]

Not in love with the thigh boots tbh

[obsidian sun]

kinky boots

[fleet junco]

Dont play exanima

[terse bronze]

gotta ride dah horse somehow

[vocal vale]

black army, white company, golden horde, what next??

[civic glade]

Red guard 🫡

[vocal vale]

dark elf

[sullen charm]

his toes are so long

[fleet junco]

Germans

[terse bronze]

could be longer

[robust tendon]

Should be longer

C. 1455

[fleet junco]

Is that jesus

[terse bronze]

the little baby yes

[fleet junco]

Praise tbe lord

https://tenor.com/view/dancing-happy-dance-praise-yas-excited-gif-18656424

[terse bronze]

the guy in orange if joseph

and the 3 guys (one is kneeling) in green white and red are the magi kings or whatever it's called in english

but the green kneeling one is depicted as Charles VII King of France

and the armored guys are his scottish guards

[sullen charm]

how realistic are breastplates that form around womens breasts

this is very important

[robust tendon]

barely

since women almost never fought

at least in medieval europe

Most breast plates fit anyway

[terse bronze]

and when they did fight they were just wearing normal bp

[robust tendon]

Since all of them are globose by design

[terse bronze]

and breasts are squishy anyway

so even if you character has HUGE MILKY BADONKERS

they'll still fit

[sullen charm]

yeah that all makes sense i guess

[terse bronze]

nothing stop you from having stuff like kastenbrusts tho

ig that's the closest to actual boobplate

[white fulcrum]

worst bossk sentence

[terse bronze]

honkers

[obsidian sun]

Worse case scenario the spaced curiass will be close, my question is what about more close fitting armor like brigidine or greek muscular breastplates

[terse bronze]

they'd be custom made

[warm marlin]

will

[sullen charm]

oh god

we do not talk abt boobplate here

these are all women in armor

note the lack of comical boob-shaped cuirasses

[obsidian sun]

I could only see comically shaped cuirasses for ceremonial and such uses

[sullen charm]

main issue is: having two solid steel orbs on your chest tends to redirect blows right into the middle of it

[obsidian sun]

Conjoined breastplates is the one in more than the typical boob cups

[white fulcrum]

boobplate id only see in the same context as some al’antica, fantastical and meant to depict ancient times

like, a musculata with breast shapes

[sullen charm]

first person looks very pretty even if i cant see their face

body langauge says alot

[fleet junco]

This is from 1360

[torpid urchin]

Really?

[robust tendon]

No, of course not.

this is mid-late 15th though the quality of this harness is dubious

[turbid shadow]

credit to @terse bronze

[bright token]

Beautiful sword

[robust tendon]

tobias capwell !!

[civic glade]

@terse bronze what book is this from?

[turbid shadow]

books from tobias capwells

[terse bronze]

Armours of the English knights series by Capwell

[civic glade]

Wow, they are insanely expensive

[civic glade]

Whered you get your copies?

[terse bronze]

wallace collection shop

[civic glade]

Have you guys read anything by chris dobson? He has an interesting one, “beaten black and blue” which is partly about cultural mythology of knights and partly about armor finishes coloration and decoration

He self publishes from his own website and it seems like a huge pain to try and buy his books

He also has a book “tough as old boots” which is about cuir bouilli and that ones still available

For an academic it doesnt seem like he cares much about getting his work in front of people so much as making sure hes duely compensated

[robust tendon]

gauntlets by tomala

[civic glade]

Show the fingers, please

[fleet junco]

The fingers are pure leather

[fleet junco]

The fingers are pure leather

[vocal vale]

what's wrong with it

[robust tendon]

not too bad but something seems off

hard to place

[vocal vale]

swear to god this is the answer i get half the time i ask why something isnt correct

it just looks weirdly unpolished to me and the oculars look a bit weirdly angled

[robust tendon]

yeah thats part of it

[terse bronze]

occulars are fine

it's just that it lacks the maille

and it's unpolished, or not enough

and parts of the harness with rearbraces or pauldrons looks a bit "undersized"?

[vocal vale]

now that you mention it they do look a bit small and i completely didnt notice how little maille he had

doesnt look horrible to me, fella needs some work

[terse bronze]

also his aventail look a bit thick

like too thick

idk

[vocal vale]

does look quite chunky

he's wearing all of his maille like a scarf lol

[lone topaz]

am i tripping or is the shield too big too

[fleet junco]

What does he mean by this

[terse bronze]

you're tripping

[void stream]

Human Unicorns!!!!

[clever bramble]

what's the source of for the manicorns?

[void stream]

BL Royal 20 B XX Le Livre et le vraye hystoire du bon roy Alixandre
Dating 1400-1425

[torpid urchin]

#art-🎨 message @prisma raven

The art is immaculate 🔥

[white fulcrum]

number 2... teehee...

[torpid urchin]

https://tenor.com/view/6the-dollar-dollar-spongebob-goomba-gif-21176607

[stuck pelican]

What a funny looking chap

[vocal vale]

shield rested atop a kastenbrust cuirass

[stuck pelican]

good lord

Also that poleax looks amazing

[vocal vale]

this is such a cool picture

[void stream]

Cool Frog mouth helmet manuscript

[charred valley]

Found this nice looking sallet

Dunno if this historically accurate though

[robust tendon]

da rounded visor armet

[robust tendon]

guessing no

[terse bronze]

that's awful

[prisma raven]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/891566461695447083/1194766150219862096/speed-1.gif

[turbid shadow]

indeed

[terse bronze]

hell yeah