references♥_1450-1470

[robust tendon]

one hander spikey flail isn’t a field weapon most likely

[sullen charm]

yea

peasant flails like these did see use

[robust tendon]

buuut there’s no real reason the spiked flail couldn’t have been a foot tourney weapon

and decorative ofc

[sullen charm]

i mean the issue is there's not really any precedent for even that

i havent seen any depictions of them being used in foot tourneys

[robust tendon]

Precedent as in textual or iconographic references?

i see

[sullen charm]

either or

unless i havent read into it enough

[robust tendon]

Yeah its purely speculative, but i mean the artist had to have seen it somewhere instead of just making it up

[sullen charm]

iirc there are physical examples of one handed military flails dated to ~1300-1500

so undoubtedly, they did exist

[robust tendon]

I’ve also seen a far earlier depiction

i forget which period though

It was i think 11th century or so

[sullen charm]

it might be a similar case to "foot combat frogmouth"

artist sees striking design

doodles it in a place it wouldn't be used it because it looks cool

[robust tendon]

Yeah the frogmouth was likely seen as a noble helm and used thusly to depict nobility

cause joust

[sullen charm]

yea

[robust tendon]

Probably the same with the flail, seeing it on display and thinking it looks cool

[sullen charm]

and with tourneys being the closest thing to real warfare your average schmoe would see, frogmouths were kinda The Generic Knight Helm™️

[robust tendon]

Its like how armets are used today

[sullen charm]

yeah

likely the phenomena of military flails can just be attributed to artists drawing a thing they think looks awesome

[sullen charm]

https://youtu.be/VYD1sCJO5sM?si=B2MMoixFey-IoVbn

[sullen charm]

yes, this is a peasant flail

these did see field use

[sullen charm]

In the video, it was used pretty effectively

[sullen charm]

yes, i've seen it

And yeah, it is a peasant flail, but it was effective (ye sit did hit his back..)

we are talking abt spiked ball and chain flails

[sullen charm]

I mean

again, peasant flails did see field use

we have historical evidence for this

From what I remember, flails were had longer shafts and smaller balls

[sullen charm]

Yeah, and from pictures (I do agree, artists often embellish...)

[robust tendon]

one handed flails are almost certainly not a field weapon because just use a mace at that point

[sullen charm]

we do not, however-- have any evidence of military flails in the field from anything else than various period artwork

[robust tendon]

There isn’t a distinct advantage between the two weapons that makes it worth it to stick the head on a chain

infact i think it could sometimes be a disadvantage

[sullen charm]

Wouldn't the unpredictability be both an advantage and disadvantage?

[sullen charm]

itd be a disadvantage

itd honestly be more predictable

you swing the weapon, and the chain lags behind

due to the length

[sullen charm]

How? (Geniune questionn)

[robust tendon]

You can be unpredictable with other weapons

So its not like this is unique to a flail

[sullen charm]

Yes, but the flail is inherently unpredictable due to the point of the weapon swaying everywhere

In the video which I posted too,

The oppenent with the flail had the point both controlled and uncontrolled

[torpid urchin]

Anyone else rarely use references when drawing?

[stuck pelican]

Nah man… I suck!

[vocal vale]

to get my best i usually find a pose online or pose for my art with my sword, draw the body, and then find another picture of armor to add onto the body

or i just conjure it with my mind

[verbal ice]

some medieval torture devices that could be used as weapons

and some hard hitting tools

[edgy narwhal]

Most of these are not medival

[edgy narwhal]

Same for these

[wraith dew]

I want a tier 4 Morningstar to be in the game so baaaad…

True but they could just add a vendor where you can convert old equipment to newer, better variants if you don’t find any new ones.

Made this for my family a bit ago :

[sullen charm]

does respect the heraldic rules ☝️🤓

[wraith dew]

lol

I really wish that there were more coats of arms on the shields 🛡️ in game

[prisma raven]

borceguíes

[robust tendon]

Would anyone have any good repro pics of this helmet?

[hoary bloom]

This looks amazing! It must have taken you forever. Love the orange, your colour scheme works much better than mine did. As a scot, I love the scottish flag. Is that an Irish one above it? It's got the same colours, but vertical instead of horizontal.

[fleet junco]

@turbid shadow

Ok

[spring ibex]

cool! I did this one a while ago, also has a lot of things related to our family's history. and also includes different things from city crests of our birthplaces etc.

[wraith dew]

Thanks! the top one's actually a custom Knight's Cript Guard House.

It's meant to signify security in life & death.

it's pretty cool imo

[wraith dew]

Awesome!

[tight sand]

i ve never seen something like that. Mb its just fantasy?

[terse bronze]

Prolly just a badly draw sallet i think

[vocal vale]

pretty dope lookin

reminds me of Bossk's Iconic "Visors Dont Matter When Referring To Helmets" Artpiece

[robust tendon]

well, eye slits are for sure

[obsidian sun]

that looks sorta off

[stuck pelican]

Never knew he was a artist

[sullen charm]

I didn't draw it, asked a friend to draw it for me

[sullen charm]

it's because it's a sallet visor on a bascinet skull, the point of the image was to convey the idea that the visor doesn't define what the helmet is

[obsidian sun]

true i mean it could work if tweaked

[sullen charm]

I mean except the brow plate being a bit too tall to properly open on such a bascinet, it still works

just gotta adjust the point

actually might not even need that

i need to try

After a quick and very scientific test using paint 3D, the visor works perfectly with the skull as is

[ancient pivot]

I did a test as well

slightly less pointy bascinet though

[sullen charm]

you bascinet has a bit of a weird shape overall but whatever

It works and that badass

[ancient pivot]

yeah it's not great but all I could find for a quick test

[robust tendon]

gorgeous trim

[obsidian sun]

hot

[sullen charm]

Georges Jolliot my beloved

[wraith dew]

Here's a better image of it btw :

We should have electorates to add C.O.A.'s to the game every other year lol

[wraith dew]

Made another one just for fun btw

It's like a medieval marine corps C.O.A. or Naval/Navy one btw

[wraith dew]

@hoary bloom

[turbid shadow]

good stuff

[hoary bloom]

It looks great! honestly I'm surprised that purple goes so well with gold. How many flags have you made? You seem really experienced at it.

[wraith dew]

I just watched the make of the website breath life into his creations and it inspired me to do the same.

[smoky topaz]

The two noblest of colors go together very well

[wraith dew]

Keep trying hard and you'll be even better than you already are!

@hoary bloom

What kinda C.O.A. Should I make next?

[torpid urchin]

These are pretty cool

[sullen charm]

Portrait of a Young Man, c.1480-85 (tempera und oil on panel)
Sandro Botticelli

[robust tendon]

harness of ferdinand V of aragon and sicily, very nice

[sullen charm]

it's not

[robust tendon]

really? it looks the exact same

[sullen charm]

it's mine!!!!

[robust tendon]

zamn

[vocal vale]

i like this a lot

[torpid urchin]

That man must be strong asl

[tranquil torrent]

Might be fun for a lively scene

EG party/buhurt

[robust tendon]

would anyone happen to know the original manuscript this comes from?

[gritty ridge]

It appears to be "René d'Anjou's Livre des Tournois" from the mid 15th Century - finding it doesn't seem to be very easy as the only original copy is held by the French National Library, and they don't make it easy to find anything.

[gritty ridge]

While it's not the actual Manuscript you wanted - it's also by René d'Anjou - and it appears to be by the same artist - that is Barthélémy d'Eyck

https://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b84522067/f1.item

Might be a good resource anyway.

[sullen charm]

Yeah the folio posted above seem to depict the exact same duel between Britany's duke and Bourbon's duke

[sullen charm]

Looked around couldnt find the exact source but apparently, and take it with a salt mine, it seems to be a Dresden copy of Renée's manuscript

[gritty ridge]

I guess this is the matching page.

[sullen charm]

I have a figure of the Duke of Bourbon 😄

[turbid shadow]

Bro 🔥

[robust tendon]

Augh

very nice

I need me one of these man

[sullen charm]

Good luck finding it, they don't make these anymore I got it when i was a kid

[robust tendon]

damn

but i’d think there are similar? Surely anyway

[robust tendon]

another depiction of the duel between the dukes of Bourbon and Bretagne

[sullen charm]

yeah this one's from the livre des tournois

[robust tendon]

yeah ik just wanted to post it cause it look cool

this is in period for the game right?

looks late-ish

[sullen charm]

yes iicr it's 1460s

[robust tendon]

nice, also would those bascinets be used outside of tourney settings? I believe they are called kolbenturniers

both the helm and the type of tournament iirc

[sullen charm]

they wouldn't

they are pretty stictly reserved for tournaments and shit

[robust tendon]

yeah i’d assume so. Big grate visor is easy to stab through

Well easier. Not easy if he knows what he’s doing

[sullen charm]

Yeah but still, even just the splints from lance charges ect

in such tourney you weren't allowed to stab (peep the sword's tip) so having pretty open grills visors like that is ok

Same reason why in the same MS there's a perforated cuirass

[robust tendon]

yup. Speaking of splints the duke of bourbon seems to have splint arm and maybe leg harness, i figured those were an earlier thing

like late 14th

[sullen charm]

The manuscript also have a section about those

well, similar

cuir bouilli limbs

[robust tendon]

I assume they were a tourney thing this late right? Or would they still be paired with like brig

splint i mean

i imagine it was cheaper than solid plate

[sullen charm]

Honestly idk, there's a couple of splint limbs here and there especially in french ms but it's almost only showcased in tourney settings

[robust tendon]

though leatherwork might have been expensive so idk about the cheaper part for splint

seems about right, might’ve been more comfortable during tourney

[sullen charm]

i'm the opinion that it could have been used sporadically outside of tourney but not as widespread as plate or standalone maille

[robust tendon]

then again people wore much heavier and probably more uncomfortable armor also

[sullen charm]

yeah prolly

[robust tendon]

yeah its prob not one or the other like a frogmouth

kind of how i see military one handed flails

[sullen charm]

hard leather doesn't give you as much protection as plate but it's certainly stiff enough to protect you, so imagine a duel where you're not trying to kill each others

[robust tendon]

yeah i was thinking that

[robust tendon]

cuir boulli can get quite good and i can see it being used as a supplementary piece to maille in early period

[sullen charm]

yup

[robust tendon]

what’s the point of the perforations? I suppose just comfort maybe?

[sullen charm]

most likely weight and ventilation

[robust tendon]

i feel like weight would be negligible but ventilation makes sense

Especially during summer months

[robust tendon]

white armor, iirc this is a later repro but it fits the period as the smith was going for the 15th ct style

[vocal vale]

doesn’t “white armor” just refer to the fact that it was worn without a surcoat?

[sullen charm]

yeah

[robust tendon]

yes, but here I use it more literally

[torpid urchin]

Very pretty set of armor

[sullen charm]

the picture is high gamma and prolly black and white so that doesn't help

now this is white armor!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSormlE8PIM&t=12s

[vocal vale]

sorry for some reason when i read it i was thinking you were calling it like a specific construction of plate armor

[civic glade]

The laminar shoulder goes so hard

[vocal vale]

do you know where i could download the manuscript? its really interesting

[sullen charm]

@vocal vale

[vocal vale]

[wraith dew]

Anybody have any really cool coats of arms?

[wraith dew]

https://tenor.com/view/raccoon-крутой-good-clap-clapping-gif-13424612

May I suggest some more, fantasy ones? ~ { like royal knights but ones with magic or access to highly volitile explosives? }

[sullen charm]

these aren't real ones, I made them up btw

I generally dislike fantasy "coat of arms" because they almost always end up so fucking ugly

[vocal vale]

these slap

[sullen charm]

thx

[wraith dew]

https://tenor.com/view/emperor-palpatine-evil-laugh-cackles-star-wars-gif-16520972

Yes, good, good.

[vocal vale]

"Wolfstooth" decoration on cuirass

voider illustrations

[robust tendon]

second armet thingy looks a lot like this blued one i posted some time ago

This doohickey

[ember pond]

not sure if im allowed to show vids like this... but idc (cool armor)

[robust tendon]

visored barbute

awful tassets

Awful maille

awfuler gauntlets

how this larp shit is cool idk

[obsidian sun]

No vambrace?

[robust tendon]

No quality more like

[sullen charm]

that's absolutely vile, go away

[robust tendon]

i pretend i do not see it

[torpid urchin]

Odd transitional suits

Never seen anything like it but I think it looks based

[robust tendon]

Meant to send a photo

shitternet rn

anyway i believe thats from a 1430 manuscript obviously on fighting

1430 ish

[torpid urchin]

https://commons.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Ms._KK5013_02v.jpg

[robust tendon]

this is a nice kit but i’m not sure it is entirely historical

[sullen charm]

it's based on historical art and stuff but he made the kasten itself and it's a bit .. shitty

his old kit was cooler

[robust tendon]

yeah the cuirass does look off

i don’t think they had just maille like that

[sullen charm]

they did

[robust tendon]

nah i meant like how he has it

i think maille skirts for this were used

[robust tendon]

hmmm but here it’e more square

[vocal vale]

i saw an actually cool set of larp gear the other day on the arms and armor subreddit

but its easy to be better than any kit involving a visored barbute

[robust tendon]

1460s iirc

Museum pieces

[patent halo]

ik these helmets were one of if not the most effective but they look goofy as hell ngl

[robust tendon]

guhhhhhhhhhh

you don't like the bicoque?

it's gorgeous

[torpid urchin]

I think bicoque helmets look nice on really sleek, modern German suits

Anywhere else and it feels out of place imo

[clever bramble]

This map depicting europe in 1444 is awesome. https://www.visualcapitalist.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/medieval-map-of-europe-in-1444.html

[robust tendon]

They look nice on kastenbrust primarily

on like an italian or other forms of german harness they do look out of place i agree

[tight sand]

cool armor)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))

[tight sand]

why do you like it ? It seems like it would look cool if u have nothing to compare with

but just look at armour from late 14 - 16 th centuries

how you can have all of these

and then say

[tight sand]

that it looks cool

[robust tendon]

guhhhh

Right one is modern art but still seems accurate

[tight sand]

yeah but its still based on something

and it doesnt look off

[robust tendon]

Definitely

The helm is accurate and everything else looks fine

but yeah, nothing really beats what people actually created and used in battle or tournament

The best fantasy armors i’ve seen are just historical pieces for the most part that just have the setting’s flair blended with them

eg, warhammer fantasy

[tight sand]

1000000%

[tight sand]

i mean even modern stuff look cool

[robust tendon]

modern repros can look really nice yeah

i think there are some semi fantasy repros out there that look good

[tight sand]

i mean like moderns soldiers stuff

It feels like fashion and war are connected to each other lol

[robust tendon]

Such as this fellow

yeah, i mean you definitely want to look good wearing armour

[tight sand]

daaamn

[robust tendon]

fashion is half the battle

and in the periods, looking really fancy and ornate is kind of a bonus

Since you’re probably important or at least able to afford ransom

So likely to be captured instead of killed

A nobleman is worth more alive than he is dead

[tight sand]

something that would fits to Game of thrones

[robust tendon]

mayhaps, it’d be better than some of the armors in that series

They kinda suffer from random bits of leather and metal syndrome

[robust tendon]

I guess those aren’t so bad

[robust tendon]

but ehhh not my thing

[robust tendon]

hmmm

Harness aint bad but the helm is funky

[tight sand]

the body seems not that bd

[tight sand]

but we have the witcher from netflix

i just dont understand why they do this

when the game showes some cool sets

[robust tendon]

tbh whether i hate fantasy armor or not depends a lot on the setting

If it’s something silly like monster hunter then i don’t really care, ridiculous armor is kind of the point

But like a grounded low fantasy setting, it just clashes with the feel of the rest of the setting

Ridiculous armor i mean

[tight sand]

and story is very important to

like lord of the rings

the armor in films. It feels like it could be better but it doesnt look off for some reason

[tight sand]

me

[sullen charm]

boobplate

oh im kms

[robust tendon]

very nice sallet

where do you source these references?

i get mine mostly from manuscript miniatures but unfortunately that doesn’t have ones past 1450

1460, Deliverance of St. peter.

Very interesting covered harness here

1477 depiction of the Battle of Grandson

Left one is dated 1450-60, other is from “Legend of St lucy” and dated 1480.

[obsidian sun]

What other helmets besides kettle and sallets were common in the 15th century, as those two are what I mostly see

[robust tendon]

bicoque was another style

you also have barbuta/barbute

You also have grand/great bascinets

You also see early armet in the 15th century

you also have the “skullcap”

[robust tendon]

However most of these except for the skullcap are mostly used alongside full plate unlike kettles and sallets, which were used by everyone. If you meant helms for common soldiers i don’t recall any other ubiquitous ones other than the kettle and sallet

[sullen charm]

i rember seeing some italian or spanish corssbowmen with what seemed to be armets

but that's weird

just wanted to mention it

[robust tendon]

That is really weird

Open faced i assume?

I guess maybe they could also be melee infantry as well as crossbowmen hence the use for them

[sullen charm]

wait imma try to find it back

some have visors

[robust tendon]

i guess it’s just an artistic liberty

[sullen charm]

Maybe not, see the "venetian greatbascinet"

[robust tendon]

i don’t see crossbowmen using a visored armet unless they were also expecting to fight hand to hand

looks a lot like the spoleto bascinet

Hmm actually

You have to bend down to load a crossbow, don’t you? So, it could serve the purpose of additional protection while reloading but allowing you to have the same vision

[fleet junco]

Thats the helmet from kcd

[sullen charm]

bleegh

[prisma raven]

me

[sullen charm]

the helmet is based on one that was found in catalonia

[sullen charm]

yaa

[stuck pelican]

How did all of these relics survive for so many years even

[sullen charm]

In very bad shape

as you can see above

[robust tendon]

Some 1460s-70s stuff

[stuck pelican]

Yeah, but sometimes they found entire suits of armor or swords

[robust tendon]

unless they were maintained like the armor of very high class people would be

[stuck pelican]

crawfishie

[sullen charm]

swords yeah, or fragments. Full harnesses in the dirt is pretty much unheard of

[robust tendon]

that stuff would prob be maintained

[stuck pelican]

Explains that then

[robust tendon]

I imagine most of the surviving stuff is equipment from common soldiers

[sullen charm]

Not necessarily

It's just that "noble" stuff yeah would be kept and pass from private collections to private collections

The relatively shiny pieces you see in museum all got restored at some point

[robust tendon]

yea i imagine but a lot of maximillian’s pieces are all in very good condition, ofc they were prob restored a bit, but they remain intact

[sullen charm]

Bascinet found in a well in my region

[robust tendon]

funny, i wonder how it got there

[night anchor]

looks like they were rich

[robust tendon]

Ehhh it’s not unlikely minor gold decorations would be on richer soldier’s armor

[sullen charm]

Was about to say, could be rich decor or just well-off

[robust tendon]

betting well off, would prob be a lot fancier

if it was a noble’s armor

And not left in a well

[sullen charm]

you neva know

[robust tendon]

C.1470-90

[noble wagon]

yeesh, i would never forgive myself if i dropped a gold trimmed bascinet in a well

[sullen charm]

might as well not be gold but brass

[sullen charm]

what the fuck

[sullen charm]

(or bronze, or whatever)

[prisma raven]

Goofy German armet idk

[sullen charm]

ngl look ugly

[robust tendon]

That amount of decor on the old well bascinet, prob wasn’t expensive

Or as expensive as gilding poleyns or visors

It just look like it replaces the leather that you see on vervellieres(idk how you spell it but its the thing you attach an aventail to)

Attached over the steel itself instead of actual gilding

[robust tendon]

lol yeah looks foam

to me

1480s stuff

This one is dated a wide range, from 1485-1500 iirc

however, this definitely does not look quite that late to me. Still looks like italian harness, though the sabatons look almost like Maximillian style sabatons

[sullen charm]

looks that late to me

[robust tendon]

how so?

Looks like how italians wore their armor earlier, double maille and all

same thing with the maille below poleyns

[prisma raven]

definitely looks that late

[torpid urchin]

Motorcycle helmet armet

[vocal vale]

i really like archers with cool helmets

especially lesser known ones like the venetian GB

[obsidian sun]

where do ya find this stuff?

[vocal vale]

pinterest

museum sites

for other sources, manuscriptminiatures (effigies, illuminateds, brass stuff)

check Tom Biliter’s pinterest boards

[obsidian sun]

neat never thought sbout using it as a source as I wanna find manusctipts of 1340s-1440s of western europe

[silk crest]

Medieval frogs

This is important reference, trust me

[smoky topaz]

https://tenor.com/view/carlos-carlitos-carlos-frog-frog-fwog-gif-20627936

[bronze gorge]

https://tenor.com/view/slap-frog-gif-22044181

https://tenor.com/view/grungus-froge-frog-toad-drums-gif-20836688

[robust tendon]

I have this flickr page that i look at for refe

i’ll get the link to it gimme a sec

[lyric light]

and rob mcpherson

and myarmoury.com

[robust tendon]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/albums/72157603168542128/with/3500369598

1450s-60s

[obsidian sun]

Beautiful

[sullen charm]

so cool

[robust tendon]

bossk do you know of any repros of the st george painting’s maille? It might just be portraying the movement of the maille but it almost looks like it is maille meant to mimic the puffed shoulders of doublets

[sullen charm]

you're looking at it too far, it's not that deep

[robust tendon]

yeah, i guess

Just looked different than most depictions

and yet more 1460s stuff

[robust tendon]

Dating on this painting/manuscript? I think it is mid to late fifteenth but looks can be decieving ;d

[prisma raven]

its early 16th century

[sullen charm]

Early 16thC., "Le Voyage de Gênes" french ms

[prisma raven]

Is this mail over the sabatons lol

or is just mail and then sabatons tips?

[robust tendon]

Prob just maille and then the sabaton tip

i doubt they would have it over sabatons, but it’s unclear tbh

[turbid shadow]

ca. 1460 - 'St. Adrian' (maybe by Nic(o)laus Gerhaert van Leiden), Koninklijke Musea voor Kunst en Geschiedenis, Brussel, Belgium

ca. 1475 - 'Engelbrecht I (+1442) and Jan IV (+1475) van Nassau, Lords of Breda and the Lek', Grote Kerk, Breda, province of Noord-Brabant, Netherlands

ca. 1445 - 'Altarpiece of the Patron Saints of Cologne' (Stefan Lochner), Cologne, former Ratskapelle, Rathaus, Cologne, Dom, Cologne, Germany

ca. 1430-1435 - '31 scenes from the Life and Passion of Christ' (Meister der Passionsfolgen), Cologne, Wallraf-Richartz-Museum, Cologne, Germany

ca. 1450-1460 - 'devotional painting ('Andachtsbild') with 12 scenes from the Life of Christ', Cologne, Wallraf-Richartz-Museum, Cologne, Germany

ahhh

this looks so cool, though its really late for the game

ca. 1439 - 'Lady Margaret Holland (+1439), Thomas, Duke of Clarence (+1421), John Beaufort, Earl of Somerset (+1410)', Canterbury Cathedral, Kent, England

ca. 1460-1465 - 'parts of an armour for Sigismondo Pandolfo Malatesta, Lord of Rimini', Milano, Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien, Austria

[turbid shadow]

P2

ca. 1450 - 'heavy horse armour' (Pier Innocenzo da Faerno), Milano, Wien Museum Karlsplatz, Wien, Austria

ca. 1450 - 'composite Kastenbrust armour', South German, Wien Museum Karlsplatz, Wien, Austria

[turbid shadow]

P2

"ca. 1450 - 'armour of Friedrich Kurfürst von der Pfalz' (Tomaso Missaglia and workshop), Milano, Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien, Austria" The iconic Great bascinet man that we all know and love.

[turbid shadow]

ca. 1450-1460 - 'chanfron', Milano, Kunsthistorisches Museum Wien, Austria

1450-1500 - 'vambrace for the left arm', German, Koninklijke Musea voor Kunst en Geschiedenis, Brussel, Belgium

1450-1500 - 'barbotto', Italia, Palazzo Venezia, Roma, Italy

1400-1500 - 'hauberk', Italian, Museum für Stadtgeschichte, Breisach am Rhein, Baden-Württemberg, Germany

1400-1450 - 'celata', Castel Sant'Angelo, Roma, Italy

ca. 1420-1430 - 'St. George', Low Countries, Meuse region, Germanisches Nationalmuseum, Nürnberg, Bayern, Germany

ca. 1420-1430 - 'St. George', Middle Rhine region, Museum Schnütgen, Cologne, Germany

ca. 1425-1435 - 'Huart Walois (+1414) & Jacques Walois (+1412)', former cemetery Saint-Nicaise, Arras, Musée des Beaux-Arts, Arras, dép. Pas-de-Calais, France

ca. 1420-1440 - 'unknown knight', England, V&A, London, England

[prisma raven]

Nuño Freire de Andrade 1431

[turbid shadow]

"ca. 1431 - 'Jacob van Lichtervelde, Heer van Koolskamp, Ardooie en Assebroek (+1431)', Sint-Martinuskerk, Koolskamp, Ardooie, province of West Flanders, Belgium"

1431 cool

[robust tendon]

1456

1470

[torpid urchin]

@vocal vale
consider drawing on the non-marked part of your classwork
consider drawing a larger aventail
consider shading underneath the "snout," as seen in the manuscript

try to draw the poleyns with the little dangly bits on the outside

[vocal vale]

thank you for the feedback

hounskulls are tricky for me to draw so those manuscript refs will do me good

also the straps on the legs and stuff i haven’t even considered but it would add a lot of cool detail

Thanks Bro

[torpid urchin]

A personal favorite of mine’s is the bascinet from the Wallace collection

[robust tendon]

would anyone be able to clarify what the parts of a pollax are really called? I’ve seen the hammer part just be called a poll and in the case of a polehammer the spike be called a hammer. But i’m not sure as i remember seeing this on myarmoury and not any historical sources

[robust tendon]

not period art but looks accurate

[robust tendon]

1440-60

The dating on this is 1430, i believe, but this is a copy of an earlier manuscript by Konrad Kyeser so the armor itself may not be 1430

tho all of this is according to a reverse image search and digging on the origin of this image

[turbid shadow]

we love armets

[lyric light]

classic fencerdumpin

[lyric light]

love swirly arms

[turbid shadow]

Yup

[lyric light]

gib armet

[torpid urchin]

Delicious couters

[prisma raven]

This sallet is awesome

[torpid urchin]

is this accurate

[vocal vale]

to a degree

the frogmouth wouldnt see battlefield use, pretty much, i dont see anything else wrong with it off the bat

[sullen charm]

that's a meh/10

there's worse, but there's also far better

[torpid urchin]

i'm skeptical about the gilded stuff

[sullen charm]

why

[torpid urchin]

idk i haven't seen much english gear with gilded trims like this

[sullen charm]

(however good to note that it's doesn't fit the game's period)

[vocal vale]

that one dude was 1420-1478

[sullen charm]

i don't hate it

[vocal vale]

im having a hard time understanding what's wrong with it

Enlighten me.

[torpid urchin]

i don't know either, thats why i'm here

i thought something was off

[sullen charm]

It's just generally low qual in term of shaping and shit

yea some of the plate is

oddly shaped

It's not "poke your eyes out" worthy, but it's not that good either

just generally kinda wonky proportions

as you said, far worse and far better out there

In general try to avoid modern art except rare exceptions like Graham Turner ect (even he get some stuff wrong sometimes)

[vocal vale]

actually now that i look at it a bit of it is too long

[vocal vale]

I understand !

[vocal vale]

i'll keep an eye out for that fellow

[torpid urchin]

https://issuu.com/jammdesign/docs/aotek_1400-1450_selection

this is fine though, no?

[sullen charm]

Of course

Tobias Capwell is a real expert

[vocal vale]

yeah

that's the one guy that you can take the word of like, all the time

[sullen charm]

here's one

And another one

And another one

[torpid urchin]

i know the artist was probably going for this, but that waist looks hilariously thin

[sullen charm]

And a last one for the road

[torpid urchin]

are these all from the book?

[sullen charm]

what a silly little fellow

[torpid urchin]

alabama heaume

[sullen charm]

No i'm using the effigies & brasses databank

[torpid urchin]

could you direct me to that?

[sullen charm]

"effigies & brasses"

that's the name of the website

[sullen charm]

Great bascinet c1450-60, after an example in the Musée de L'armée, Paris France.
By Jeff Hedgecock

[fleet junco]

Eyesight improvement device

Add developers

[torpid urchin]

Design is very human

[civic glade]

The great bascinet seems a poor choice for foot combat with the way it seems fix your neck

I imagine its more for mounted combat, but even in that case all around awareness is pretty important

Any period word on the context in which it was used?

[sullen charm]

Guess that's why a huge proportion of foot combat helmets were great bascinets then 🤷‍♂️ (tourney)

[sullen charm]

c1450-60 the Musée de L'armée, Paris France

iicr the browplate was added slightly later for tourney

Great bascinets are very nice helmets, in the end it's just a balance between protection, mobility ect.. depending on what a man-at-arms would personally prefer

[robust tendon]

Not really.

the english fought on foot wearing those

It's less likely that neck movement is gonna be useful on foot than a horse

you can always just turn your body on foot

on a horse not so much

[civic glade]

That makes sense to me. Tourney armor seems typically unwieldy in this way

[civic glade]

I find myself turning my head often while fighting with longswords, which is the frame of reference from where i speak. I suppose that if you werent able to you could probably adapt your style by omitting some plays or guards

[sullen charm]

Most foot tourney armors really just were field armors

[civic glade]

Not to mention fight with entirely different arms im not familiar with

Like polearms, for instance. No idea how that is done

[sage sleet]

helps to brace your neck so the large metal object swung at your head doesnt break it, very helpful in combat

[civic glade]

Maybe so, but you could do the same with a gorget or a bevor, and not fix your field of vision to the orientation of your chest

[sullen charm]

Reminder that gorgets at this time were just maille collars

and bevors weren't always fixed to the torso

sallets, armets, greatbascinet all have different ups and downs

[civic glade]

You do what you can with what you have i spose

[sullen charm]

You do what you need to with what you want to wear* really

[sullen charm]

.

[torpid urchin]

how often would you see an aventail like this in western europe

[sullen charm]

Extremely common, that's a meh rendition of a maille collar/standard/gorget

[torpid urchin]

i mean a spiked one specifically

[sullen charm]

shape doesn't matter

[torpid urchin]

made me consider a penis shaped aventail for some reason

[civic glade]

Well, your choice is obviously limited by whats available. If you dont have a plate gorget or a fixed bevor that can distribute the load because they arent being made yet, then you go for something that is being made, and make do with the tradeoff that entails

The tradeoff of a great basc seems sensible for the context its in

I suppose these are the practicalities that inform armor evolution

[civic glade]

Whered you find this picture?

[sullen charm]

German riveted mail standard, 15th century

[torpid urchin]

google images

[civic glade]

Wow, that looks really stable

What a tight weave

[civic glade]

Anything on the original source?

[torpid urchin]

i can try digging for it

https://www.larpdistribution.com/product/flat-ring-round-riveted-chainmail-aventail-with-dagged-edges/

lmao its from a larp website

[civic glade]

I cant speak with the kinda precision that some others do, but the dagging (ie the spikes on the edge) are a not uncommon maille decoration

Ive seen a couple like so, c mid 1300- later 1400 maybe

But i see no reason it couldnt be done later or earlier

[robust tendon]

so I assume those more "solid" rings are meant for additional protection?

I've never seen something like that on early aventail, in depictions or repros

[vocal vale]

mail bevor, pointy couters, club decoration on the plackart, floating rerebraces attached to the pauldrons, deeply brimmed sallet, cool harness overall!

[tight sand]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EpuqJHxeaTY greatbascinet in foot on foot duel

[sullen charm]

denser rings are more protective yes, you see that happening quite a bit, especially on more "fragile" areas, like wrists

[olive willow]

I noticed this too, I saw it in mordhau and thought it looked weird since I never really saw it in references

I wish mordhau had a fantasy section or something

[sullen charm]

there's quite a lot of examples of decorative spiked maille like this

[olive willow]

Oh my bad, it exists just not very common idk why i said fantasy like it never did lol

I guess i meant more i find a hard time finding sources of them

[robust tendon]

Interesting, did they ever just make the entire thing out of the denser rings? As in a full hauberk or aventail instead of a specific section

I suppose you just have scale for that, though i’ve not heard of “scale maille” being used in western europe

Outside of aventails and skirts anyways

Right one is dated 1480, left is 1485

[civic glade]

Well it would be quite stiff. You gotta keep it flexible

[fleet junco]

Why do they like playing duck duck goose

[turbid shadow]

this man has been posted 500 times but he stll looks good till this day

[robust tendon]

richard beauchamp i think

looks like his heraldic crest

[stuck pelican]

[robust tendon]

so would the neck dense rings

[terse bronze]

I think some middle easterns hauberks/plated maille shirts did have denser rings ect but don't quote me on that

outside of that, not that I know off

[sullen charm]

A Pollaxe with a shortened haft,
121.8 cm
Western Europe, ca. 1470-1520, housed at The Art Institute of Chicago

https://www.artic.edu/artworks/106205/poleax?fbclid=IwAR21CcXNmU5L8RrSLgiUEXZfVowELj7ZrjAy7DIqSBUGaPOZh3-HhF-JvXY

[civic glade]

Sure, but your neck doesnt bend all the way over, unless you have serious problems

[robust tendon]

1450 burgundian pollax

[civic glade]

Flexibility is much more important in your arms and chest than your neck

[robust tendon]

ehhh if that were true you’d probably just have mostly solid plate as neck protection instead of articulated gorgets and such

besides maille by definition no matter the density is going to be flexible

i mean in other parts of europe they had aforementioned scale maille i think

and lamellar

[sullen charm]

assortment of different pollaxes by "white well arms"

[civic glade]

dont be so absolutist. a bit of flexibility is necessary to be able to move your neck at all, but it doesnt need to be as flexible as your arms which bend much more extremely.

that being said, there are monolithic gorgets and plate bevors which are basically rigid. there are also articulated ones

[stuck pelican]

Pretty hot

@sullen charm what is this

[sullen charm]

https://www.artic.edu/artworks/106491/poleax

[stuck pelican]

What’s the difference between a poleaxe and a poleax

[sullen charm]

none, it's just a different name for pollaxe

[stuck pelican]

Strange that they still call it a poleaxe, even thought it has no real axe head

[sullen charm]

pollaxe is the name of the weapon, and the weapon has multiple combination possible, and mallet/hammer head being one of them

the term "axe" was pretty polysemic back then

Axe or hammer head virtually function and are used the same way so no point in changing the name for a "detail" like that, it's still technically the same weapon

(however it happened sometimes that for instance the beak (falcon's beak) was present and was used to refer to the whole weapon colloquially, but it didn't refer specifically to the hammer+beak variant like many think with their "BeC dE cOrBiN". It refered to both axe and hammer heads with a beak on the opposite side, but like I said, it was more of a colloquial term rather than a very widespread one. It's still called pollaxe/axe/hache)

[robust tendon]

Odd choice to have the pollax have the same heads on each side

You’d think you’d want a different one for utility’s sake but it’s a modern repro so i suppose it doesn’t really mattee

[sullen charm]

might be an artist mistake, or not idk

but it looks cool tho

[sullen charm]

gawd damn

[turbid shadow]

"Knight with the arms of Jean de Daillon" Dated 1477 - ca. 1480

[stuck pelican]

Now isn’t that beautiful

[bright token]

marvelous detail on the poleyns and cuisses

[bright token]

Footman kit?

[turbid shadow]

yea

[copper loom]

no cod piece = dislike

[turbid shadow]

you won't be seeing those anytime soon

[in the game]

armored ones of course

[copper loom]

y not?

[copper loom]

how bout unarmored ones

[turbid shadow]

they don't fit the time period, I don't think there were examples of ones that are on the 1430-1480's

[copper loom]

[turbid shadow]

english harnes

@robust tendon this is so you

[terse bronze]

Hi

[turbid shadow]

Yo

[copper loom]

bro thats the silliest helmet ive ever seen

[turbid shadow]

sallets cus ivan likes em

More

[terse bronze]

YOOOOO the bicoque inreal

[turbid shadow]

Yup!

the Armorer did a great job at making it, it's one to one to a one that you can see from a Manuscript

[terse bronze]

Fr

[turbid shadow]

@terse bronze opinions on this brigandine?

[terse bronze]

It's awesome

[turbid shadow]

great

[terse bronze]

Need some trimming ect on the straps tho

[turbid shadow]

Fair, pretty sure ivan already has some good refs for that stuff

this hits so hard

[copper loom]

now THIS is drippy

[copper loom]

this too, who makes these?

old world armory?

[turbid shadow]

yup

[copper loom]

thats very impressive

prolly quite expensive

[terse bronze]

I think OWA also did some flemish heroic stuff

[turbid shadow]

video of the gauntlet in action.

[copper loom]

that metalwork is crazyy

[terse bronze]

ya bloody scallywag

Walk da plank

[turbid shadow]

you guys like this cuirass?

[terse bronze]

Always love them

[turbid shadow]

Apparently its an early 15th century France/Italian export for France

really like it

also, more cool sallets

[terse bronze]

Looks based on the cuirass clovis wears in "Clovis receiving the Lys" ms

[copper loom]

i like it, i think maybe the "skirt?" is too long/big??

[turbid shadow]

looks fine

[terse bronze]

Cqn someone check i'm going off by memory rn

[turbid shadow]

Ill check it out

this?

[terse bronze]

Ya

[turbid shadow]

Really good, and this seems to really capture it really well

[terse bronze]

Lovely

[turbid shadow]

the armed man

[terse bronze]

The bipedal mammal in question

[turbid shadow]

cool armor starter pack

[robust tendon]

He balling

[copper loom]

woah

cool set

[terse bronze]

Lesgo

[robust tendon]

love the dude on the right’s harness

[turbid shadow]

they are the same lol

[robust tendon]

dang thought so

although it is semi fantasy apparently

still looks baller

[turbid shadow]

its not the shitty type then

[robust tendon]

interesting visor here

[robust tendon]

Bit like this doohickey

but not quite the same since no eyeslit

[turbid shadow]

looks decent

[robust tendon]

Definitely; apparently the smith still used irl references it’s just a bit of an amalgam of them

[robust tendon]

according to bossk anyway

[robust tendon]

need some more common soldier fashion

[robust tendon]

stuff like this fellow

[turbid shadow]

maybe you'll be able to replicate him if they add back the old gambeson from the old version

[robust tendon]

this is pretty late for the game but i’d love gambeson/jack over maille

[robust tendon]

1490 painting but def something that could be worn earlier

[turbid shadow]

Armet

[terse bronze]

that's right in the game timeframe

[terse bronze]

CRAYFISH MY BELOVED

[turbid shadow]

crayfish company

[terse bronze]

https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExaTVkZHVob3ZhbWZvZm0yY2l4djdmMGRpcW5jNnh0c2owdHY0cGQ4NiZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/zvfW3Ep32l94uxc5G6/giphy.gif

[robust tendon]

It goes to 1480 no? Not 1490 unless you were talking about the armor itself which ofc is

[terse bronze]

nAH I4M TALKING ABOUT THE ARMOR ITSELF

wtf caps lock

[robust tendon]

the all caps lol

i already mentioned that

[turbid shadow]

La extra Armete

[terse bronze]

https://tenor.com/view/this-shit-laced-laced-hulk-green-monster-shit-gif-11770717343618769494

[turbid shadow]

Beautiful gauntlets

[robust tendon]

Love brass/goldwork with funky patterns

[robust tendon]

i wonder if the writing you often see in some non period depictions(i.e latin inscription) is actually historical

[turbid shadow]

Cray fish Arm Harness

[robust tendon]

spiked couters my beloved

[turbid shadow]

something feels too late in there

[robust tendon]

quilting inside bevor? Weird

[turbid shadow]

the arm harness

[robust tendon]

i love gold trimmed maille

very beautiful

[turbid shadow]

yuypp

The men behind the armor

Alright, last reference post, will share more later

Hopefully @candid dawn Finds these References Helpful to the development of HS.

[robust tendon]

“How a man shall be armed when he fights on foote” (iirc)

[prisma raven]

Like we say here in Spain, Fencer "te has sacado la polla"

[candid dawn]

Wow guys this is some really awesome refrences!! ❤️❤️❤️❤️

[turbid shadow]

No Problem, Always happy to assist

[robust tendon]

Is this thing a bicoque or armet?

looks a lot like a bicoque

[turbid shadow]

Armet

[robust tendon]

idk

i see

[turbid shadow]

Kit based on Sir William Phelip, Lord Bardolph (d.1441), at Dennington in Suffolk.

Eisenhut, Pretty sure Ivan has made one of these already.

Great bascinet

[sullen charm]

Dated to 1444, it belongs to Georg von Seckendorff and can be found in the monastery of Heilsbronn

[stuck pelican]

This game never coming out if Ivan models every single Varient and helmet ever 💔

[candid dawn]

That aint no issue :)))

Buut, i was wondering if you guys could help us out finding more refrences for these type of helmets, its 1460~ swiss, but not sure if its houndskull bascinets or a mix inbetwene, i was not able to find any solid refrences for these helmets but they seem to be very common

[terse bronze]

Most likely fantasy/stylized Helms like greatbascinets for instance

Or armets? But the fact that they only show up in these ms tend to show they didn't really exists

[vocal vale]

bicoque armets, they open from the center and are kind of a transitional helmet that fell out of favor, as far as i can tell, for more traditional armets. they were seen with a wide variety of visors, and appear in a lot of german artwork in various forms all throughout the 1400s

"Tourney"-ish visor
Grill Visors
Fully perforated visors
Visorless
Grand bascinet-esque visor (can lead to some confusion as certain depictions of gbs and bicoques can get conflagrated, important distinction is that a bicoque opens largely like an armet)
Sallet-ish visors, ones I've seen usually have rondels on the sides alongside them
Hounskull visor*

*Note that the hounskull visor is depicted in a manuscript from 1441, making it the most "modern" application I've seen of a hounskull on a helmet, but it is to be taken with a grain of salt as the wearer is also boasting a hauberk instead of plate, which is quite unusual to me

many bicoques of many visor types appear in GNM Hs998 History of the Trojan War, and that's the source of a few of the images I posted

they are often seen with kastenbrust or tonlet harnesses, though they are seen in images 4, 5, and 6 with more "modest" equipment

note that fellows in here seem to discern "armets" from "bicoques", but i consider an armet a helmet that opens by splitting in the center to accommodate the wearer and not the general typology of the helmet

a bicoque, to me, is an armet that is rounded throughout with a bottom half that splits in two for entry and exit, usually with a fully perforated or grilled visor

[civic glade]

Whats the black knight from?

[vocal vale]

i believe it's one of the myriad depictions of saint maurice although i cant find the original source

i think i know where i got it from, let me look

[vocal vale]

• modern bicoques

based off the Ghent altarpiece

[civic glade]

The ventilation on those seems horrible

[vocal vale]

tell it to the gazillion people who used it

[civic glade]

Why do you guys respond that way every time i observe a drawback to any piece of armor?

[vocal vale]

additionally, some have little "orbs" in the front of them, which i can not discern the purpose of but do enjoy looking at (this one seems to be more of a grand bascinet than a bicoque, but the visor is still seen on bicoques nonetheless)

[civic glade]

I feel like theyd probably agree ‘yeah, it sucks to breath in those when youre working hard. Beats being beheaded’

[vocal vale]

i have heard from a few reenactors who use them that they're the best for ventilation

the design is even incorporated into certain buhurt kits

and considering it was seen a lot in tournament contexts, especially, i'd presume it's pretty optimized for ventilation

[vocal vale]

ca. 1460 - 'St. Gereon of Cologne with Followers' (Meister der Verherrlichung Mariae), Köln, Germanisches Nationalmuseum, Nürnberg, Bayern, Germany

[civic glade]

If it is optimized for breathing, its an a way i cant discern. I hate anything thats super close to the face abd worse if it doesnt have vent holes across the mouth. Some people love closer helms and i just never got that

For my standard something like a houndskull or a bulged klapvisir is favored in a visor, but plenty of the orbular visors that get posted seem comfortable

Mainly its the chin/mouthguard component of this bicoque im wary of, but maybe its not so bad

[vocal vale]

honestly im not quite sure the benefits a more bespoke and close fitting helmet would have other than snugness and stability, which was probably important for bicoques because the heavy perforation in the visor could produce a parallax effect

[civic glade]

One useful aspect of a close in mouth is being able to see better downwards. One of the big drawbacks to the houndskul is not being able to look down very well unless you have it fit just so

Leads to a hanging head kind of posture thats not great for your neck

[vocal vale]

this guy is INCAPABLE of looking down, for sure

[civic glade]

The way theyre fit on the portraits with open faces, it seems like the chinguard is meant to only come up to your lips and not really cover them. But the physical examples seem impossibly chinly

Like rhat looks like it would come up to my nose, but maybe i just have a shorter face than the old knights

[vocal vale]

archer wearing a bicoque for some reason

[sullen charm]

keep in mind!!! artists are artists!!

[vocal vale]

a good deal of the effigies have the bicoque much more on the chin than on the mouth like the art does

[sullen charm]

depictions of warfare in period works may be embellished or take liberties for the sake of looking cool

[civic glade]

Yes, my suspicion is they do so that the person can be more easily identified in the pieve

[civic glade]

Which matters more to artists and their noble commissioners than exacting armor accuracy

[vocal vale]

second one, iirc, is depicting a guy that doesnt even exist

[civic glade]

the right image of statues, are those metal statues or stone?

[vocal vale]

one of maximilian I's many slightly-real ancestors

[vocal vale]

bronze

[civic glade]

Its very fine, i cant help but admire it

[vocal vale]

it's King Arthur, just checked

[civic glade]

Where is it?

[vocal vale]

Innsbruck, Austria

[civic glade]

Ill have to put it on the bucket list

I love a good statue

[vocal vale]

closest to farthest, Clovis I, Philip I, Rudolph I, Albert II

other ones im not going to go through the trouble of naming

there's an illustrated version of all the figures in the statues, but i cant find it

believe Fencer posted it a while back

[civic glade]

Wow

The level of detail is exact. I wonder how they went about casting. Perhaps a lost wax ceramic mould

[vocal vale]

not quite sure about that

im not very educated in artistic techniques of the time

but it is certainly one of the most impressive artistic feats i've ever seen

[civic glade]

All of that embellishment on the fabric is more impressive in bronze than silk

[vocal vale]

truly i think if i made it into that church i'd cry a few tears

GOODNIGHT ! ! !!

[turbid shadow]

lovely helmets, Here are some that are Kinda Similar to those

[sullen charm]

send orles... i need EVERYTHING orle related....

[civic glade]

Is this a type of biscoque?

Or what is it

[stuck pelican]

Double point chinny chin helmet w rondel

[robust tendon]

yes, bicoque

[robust tendon]

Yeah, sounds about right

But they do remind me of lithuanian style bascinets with those high peaks

[robust tendon]

Perhaps the artist found an existant example of one during his time and thought they looked cool

[robust tendon]

Gravestone of Eberhard von Grumbach, dated 1487

cinnamon roll besagews

c. 1480 “Knight of the von Müllenheim family”

C. 1448 “Graf Friedrich IV von Moers, Kirche st. Pantaleon, Cologne, Germany/HRE”

+more of the same effigy