references♥_1450-1470

[prisma raven]

that's an amazing adarga also that helmet is so cool

[sullen charm]

Yeee love the cabasset

[sullen charm]

the guy at the front is also pretty awesome

[candid dawn]

ohboy getting some really good refs in this chat!!! keep em coming guys!!! 😄

[sullen charm]

:3

[turbid shadow]

@sullen charm this is so you

[sullen charm]

this is already me champ.. i think it's you on the pic!!

[turbid shadow]

camacurt made this for you?

damn looks really good

[sullen charm]

Ye hehe

camacurt is epic

[turbid shadow]

add heroic armor as ultra secret rare armor

I'm pretty sure they don't fit actually

can be cool as a KS reward maybe

[turbid shadow]

ba

[small moss]

source?

[small moss]

also this?

[prisma raven]

third quarter of the 15th century (1450-1475) France - Auvergne?

The Hague, Koninklijke Bibliotheek

74 G 27: L’Epistre d’Othea by Christine de Pisan

fol. 45r - “Adrastus, king of Argos, asleep; fight between Polynices and Tydeus”

Both Polynices and Tydeus would become Adrastus’s sons in law - Polynices (brother of Eteocles, Antigone and Ismene) being married to his daughter Argea and Tydeus to his daughter Deipyle.

[small moss]

thanks!

[sullen charm]

http://ica.themorgan.org/manuscript/page/20/77341

[small moss]

you guys are awesome

[sullen charm]

😁 no u

[karmic cloud]

Shield camo lmao. From a distance make the enemy think you only have a small heater.... totally not though cause the entire thing is a giant red square lol

[unborn tartan]

seems 16th century but it depicts kastenbrust

did people wear retro armor sometimes lol?

btw what is this from?

[lyric light]

i mean heroic and al antiqua armour kinda is

but ive seen 16th cent art with dudes wearing random old pieces like that image before

[robust tendon]

Is it not just antiquity/classical greek or roman stuff but in their own rendition

Kind of how fantasy games take inspiration from irl medieval kit sometimes

[robust tendon]

its not unlikely they wore “old” stuff

No reason to phase it out if it works fine still

and theres no reason that a noble would not feel like commissioning a design from the past because he prefers the fashion

[terse bronze]

It's just an old fashioned illustrations

[karmic cloud]

I imagine they did it all the fuckin time lol. Less likely for super rich dudes and therefore probably less likely to be depicted in art or well preserved but common sense dictates they would.

"well my dad has this steel breastplate but he's getting old and doesn't need it anymore... Should I have it adjusted slightly to fit me or commission an entirely new one for a whole shitload more money... decisions decisions..."

Armor could probably last a couple generations especially if it's spending most its time oiled and sat in a trunk at home.

And there may have just been armor nerds that asked the guy making it to shoot for an older style tbh

Actual giant pet peeve of mine is those guys that nitpick historically accuracy by saying like "erm that helmet is actually 60 years older than when this is set somebody fire the costume guy 🤓"

FUCKIN THINK ABOUT IT THEY'RE NOT JUST GONNA THROW ALL THAT SHIT AWAY CAUSE IT'S NOT IN FASHION

REEEEEEEEEEEEE

[robust tendon]

Well stuff obviously goes obsolete

Better designs are made

[robust tendon]

You would probably not use hand me down armor

munitions armor existed

It wasn’t all commission pieces

[stuck pelican]

Milanese armor is so hot..

[robust tendon]

munitions armor would be better than an outdated and possibly damaged piece

A couple generations? No way is armor going to be in use that long

They wouldnt just hand everything down

If you went to war you could probably afford decent and new equipment

[stuck pelican]

I feel like it would be rusted to all hell or super tattered

[robust tendon]

Yeah i have a feeling he doesn’t know what he’s talking about

it does depend on how well it is maintained

But over fuckin

Generations

You’d probably buy new kit

Its probably MORE likely that rich nobility would use older designs, for the reasons of personal preference

[stuck pelican]

Wasn’t life expectancy back then was like 20s - 40s

because they were nasty

[robust tendon]

Rather than regular fighting men that would probably just go to a smith and purchase munition plate

Probably depends on your status

But they weren’t constantly dying

20s is just untrue

I imagine kings with access to the best medicine and care of the time were the longest lived

the average city dweller a bit less so perhaps

[stuck pelican]

Nah I’m talking like

Majority of everyone

[robust tendon]

Probably like 60s maybe 70s

for the kings

[stuck pelican]

like peasants and serfs to like nobility

[robust tendon]

50s-60s for most people probably

[stuck pelican]

Didn’t majority of them die during their younger years in wars

[robust tendon]

you’d only die at twenty or earlier if you were born into the plague times or just got unlucky

well afaik death rates in war are actually pretty low, at least for battlefield deaths

If you got a rusted arrow shot into your leg you’d probably die later, or from a wound that of course would not be disinfected

but humans have immune systems for a reason

it was i bet more probable to die of infection or whatever but not assured i’d assume

[stuck pelican]

Yeah

[sullen charm]

your modern "Common sense" isn't a viable source

[sullen charm]

There's exemples of old equipement being used in battle but by shit like shithole town militias (like the ones in visby that were noted to have a couple of pretty old coat of plates) but there's also more counter examples of that. Old equipement being sold to buy fresher ones or simply being turned into something else (ex: an old kettle hat being turned into a cooking pot)

And armor wasn't as expensive as many ppl think, you could find pieces for pretty cheap

think about it like cars, rich ppl would have the top of the top in term of quality, finitions ect and the less rich would have a cheaper car, sometime second hand, that isn't a lamborghini but get the job done for what job you have

"What's better ? a lamborghini or a second hand pick-up ?" Well both, they are both perfect for what you intend them to be : a car you use for sport or luxury and a car you use for labor related stuff

[robust tendon]

shit hole town militias

[sullen charm]

It would make no sense to expect a farmer to buy a lambo

[robust tendon]

what do you mean by that

[sullen charm]

militias or a backwater town in a not-so-rich kingdom

[robust tendon]

I see

[sullen charm]

I can't remember if the guys at visby had older coat of plates or older styles of coat of plates but made recently

i think it was straight up old one but aint sure

[unborn tartan]

Well some regions get the fashions a bit later. Sweden for example wasn't the height of culture and fashion so it got the fashions of, for example, Germany a bit later. Paul Dolnstein's sketches from circa 1500 show way outdated equipment on the Swedes

[robust tendon]

I only see outdated equipment being used if its like a few years gap

Nothing along the lines of 60 years or generations lol

[unborn tartan]

Some cultures also hold on to outdated fashions for longer

[robust tendon]

Maybe like a decade, maybe 15 years possibly

[sullen charm]

Ireland is in a world of its own

mf in haubergeon and bascinet in the late 16thc

guys aren't even trying at that point...

[robust tendon]

very silly

[sullen charm]

Thing is i've seen some extremely silly requests from ppl with that mindset

Like asking for "crusader armor" in a game set in 1380s because of that exact narrative

"uhhh peasant looted the greathelm from a dead knight and carried it from generations!! 🤓 " yeah ok stfu

[reef thicket]

Correction, around the 15th century

[vagrant charm]

It’d prolly be harder for peasants to upkeep a piece like that for generations than to jus buy a new helmet lol

[robust tendon]

Yeah good point as well there

munitions wasnt very expensive

[sullen charm]

Correction, not talking about this game

[robust tendon]

Compared to maintaining armor over decades

[sullen charm]

It would also be both illegal and useless

[robust tendon]

Most do not know how

So they’d go to a smith

[reef thicket]

Oh. Then mb

[robust tendon]

Illegal?

never heard of that

[stuck pelican]

I don’t think they’d want peasnts to have armor of any kind

[robust tendon]

what?

[sullen charm]

well looting was illegal and having rich stuff in your modest house is like stealing from a rich family, since it should have been inherited ect

[robust tendon]

oh nvm

Misunderstood

[sullen charm]

looting corpses* i must say

[robust tendon]

Rich stuff as in ornate things?

like sumptuary laws?

[sullen charm]

Yeah, at least so I understood

but there will always be ppl doing illegal stuff anyway

[unborn tartan]

I disagree. There's quite a few examples of people using a few decades old equipment. Like zweihänders still occasionally show up in the defense of towns even into the mid 17th century as they're still laying around in the city arsenals. That and some regions just being super slow fashion-wise.

[sullen charm]

and looting like gold cups from the duke of burgundy tent after they fled said camp would have been done, and then resold at the black market or whatever

[robust tendon]

I mean a single piece of equipment

Not just old fashions or designs made in later periods

[sullen charm]

Many ppl (and it's not their fault) don't realise the sheer diversity of even just degree of quality and finition in armor, even in the 15thc

[sullen charm]

However iicr if you happen to look that camp and there's money of other soldiery equipment you can have it, but it can also depend on the orders of your commanders and such

[robust tendon]

lol this is ever more egregious for greathelms specifically, as they’re i imagine worse as armor than a later medieval plate helm

[turbid shadow]

Idk why but I think this is late for the game by a slight bit

[sullen charm]

I think it falls right in the 1480s

i have to check

[robust tendon]

so many schekes lately

not that i mind, very nice looking

[turbid shadow]

Im gonna say it again, petition to make HS 1440-1490

[robust tendon]

ive heard like 1480-1490 as the latest dates

[unborn tartan]

I doubt they were producing new greatswords specifically for defending towns in the 1660s lol

[robust tendon]

ehhh maybe

[turbid shadow]

Interesting

Thats good

[sullen charm]

1470 Actually ! (Saint Florian (my name!!!!))

there's st george next to him

[turbid shadow]

Thats some end game gear

[sullen charm]

gut berk

[robust tendon]

flower besagews

[turbid shadow]

Shit that you’d probably KILL to have

[karmic cloud]

We are not much different now. Information just moves a lot faster. I have a 70 year old gun that I still use to take game as recently as this fall. People don't discard perfectly functional tools.

[turbid shadow]

Berserk armor if it was good

[sullen charm]

Again, what makes sense to you probably didn't made sense for them

[robust tendon]

yeah but really old armor that would be hard to maintain or just not have been maintained, probably isnt very functional

When you could just buy munitions lol

[turbid shadow]

Hoping we can get a gothic harness in this arena update @candid dawn 👀

[robust tendon]

please

armets too

[karmic cloud]

They had literally the exact same brains as us, just less access to information. We aren't talking about cro-magnons.

[robust tendon]

Yeah of course

[turbid shadow]

Ofc!

[sullen charm]

Like for the intense majority of the middle ages, they didn't (or very rarely and for specific reasons) have significant soles under their shoes, imagine doing that today

[robust tendon]

i like the sallets but early italian style armet is very nice

[sullen charm]

Same brain but different society, morals, manners, preferences and viewpoints

[karmic cloud]

Armor isn't that hard to maintain and unless you were a proffessional soldier it wouldn't see much wear.

[robust tendon]

Something like this beauchamp armet would be nice

Yes it is hard to maintain

[karmic cloud]

to be fair there's literally a market for shoes like that.

[robust tendon]

not many would know how to do that, so theyd go to a smith

expensive when you could just get a new piece

[sullen charm]

Is it the norm today? is it widespread ? no

Not like they did

[karmic cloud]

Keep moisture off, replace fittings and leather as it cracks

[sullen charm]

because for them it made sense to have shoes like that, or straight up be "barefoot" (just wearing braies and hoses)

[karmic cloud]

I didn't say EVERYONE was gonna be wearing 70 year old gear all the time either.

[sullen charm]

me (porcelain art piece)

[robust tendon]

what the armor really needs atm is some nice gold trim or plumage

[turbid shadow]

Me running at the other knight [right click spamming him to death]

[robust tendon]

i like polearms in hs

[turbid shadow]

The helmet helmet here is very interesting

[robust tendon]

But the long ones are just so clunky

[turbid shadow]

Great Armet????

[sullen charm]

me shooting you with a longbow xDDDD armor piercing damage XDDD armor counter !!

[turbid shadow]

Yes exactly

[sullen charm]

armet with wrapper

big mac whopper

[robust tendon]

i like the shorter ones that you can wield better

willie just too weak

for the pole vaulting polearms

[turbid shadow]

Yehhhh totally forgot about that

I got confused by a bit

[sullen charm]

big mac whopper

[turbid shadow]

Me dodging you with my mobility stat xrxdxddxd!!

I don’t think rolling would be effective at all

It’d be just a waste of stamina if anything

[turbid shadow]

Oh and Idk if this is just me misremembering things but from the arms and armor discord conversation with ivan I think he said that HS will be mostly set on hre, and Italian stuff won’t be super common, that’s if I’m not wrong ofc

[sullen charm]

i mean a lotta infantry stuff even in germany would be italian-made anyway

or a huge portion

[turbid shadow]

Picture he sent

[sullen charm]

yeah so still a huge amount of italian stuff

or italianate

(flanders, france, swiss, northern italy, austria.. )

[stuck pelican]

Is that like one of those lance holders on the chest plate

[sullen charm]

yes

lance rests my beloved

[turbid shadow]

We have em in aeternis and we’ll have em on Half sword

[stuck pelican]

We have them in half sword?!

[sullen charm]

I'll will harass john man into making standalone ones for aeternis

but first he need to finish the schecken and some minor stuff

[stuck pelican]

Why did Milanese armor commonly have lance holders and stuff

[sullen charm]

they all did

[stuck pelican]

Wait what

[sullen charm]

yeah

[turbid shadow]

Grahh I sent the other build with the weird proportions

[stuck pelican]

Why thought

[sullen charm]

it's to rest your lance (duh) during charges so the power of the charge doesn't dissipate upon impact

[turbid shadow]

They’ll be the best thing to use if we get lance tournaments

[sullen charm]

lance transfer to rest, rest transfer to rider, rider transfer to saddle, saddle to horse

you couldn't make as powerful charges when the lance was just tucked under the rider's armpit

[turbid shadow]

Man I want those French Armets that have these cool ass french uhh forgot their name

[stuck pelican]

How did the lance like

Cone part not just

Slam into them and then fling them off

[sullen charm]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bzHK9eGrV8Q&pp=ygUKbGFuY2UgcmVzdA%3D%3D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2vhFsU_kkg&pp=ugMICgJmchABGAHKBQpsYW5jZSByZXN0

[stuck pelican]

Fancy

[sullen charm]

but everyone used them

[stuck pelican]

Semi fancy

[sullen charm]

like not everyone as in "even the footmen" but everyone italians, german, french, english, ectect

[stuck pelican]

Oh

I rarely see those on gothic sets

[turbid shadow]

Da

[robust tendon]

speaking of lances, i’ve heard a few times that they usually break after one or two charges

how true would that be

[robust tendon]

the silly helm

[turbid shadow]

Da wrapper

[sullen charm]

a couple

[stuck pelican]

Why they posing him like thattt

[sullen charm]

no clue but it's a consumable, like many weapons so

idk!

[robust tendon]

what do you mean by that?

i cant tell if its like a joke

[sullen charm]

that knights and men at arms would have multiple

[robust tendon]

Oh, i see

[sullen charm]

if it breaks, take another one

[robust tendon]

like carried with them?

or just kept somewhere away from the fighting

[sullen charm]

I'm not sure but probably not on the horse with them, moreso in the camp or campaign carriage with other stuff

[robust tendon]

yeah i would figure

I don’t know how you’d store that well

[sullen charm]

on karts lol

[robust tendon]

i meant like into a fight

[sullen charm]

ah lol

[robust tendon]

like would you strap it to a horse? Probably get lost somehow, its a battle after all

[sullen charm]

idk doesn't seem very probable

[robust tendon]

and carrying it on your person sounds not very doable

Yeah they probably just fell back and got new lances

[turbid shadow]

bossk, what would you think of a dlc that takes place like in, 1390-1425 Which I think 1425 is when azincourt started no?

[sullen charm]

1415

[turbid shadow]

yeah

more like it

[sullen charm]

idk

[turbid shadow]

we'll see what the HS team thinks about it once the game actually finishes

[robust tendon]

tbh i’d prefer like, 12th century stuff

[sullen charm]

idk seem to much

i'd personally go for 1490-1510

[turbid shadow]

oooh yeah

[robust tendon]

it would be interesting to see like Maximilian style armor

[turbid shadow]

there's a shit ton of stuff within that time period

[robust tendon]

and landsknechts, zweihanders

zweihanders seem like they would be really fun to use with the combat system

[turbid shadow]

modding could very well come out and we the community can make our own shit

we just have to wait for the game to come out

[robust tendon]

Yup

[turbid shadow]

Like Holy shit, Why don't we make a Sengoku Japan Mod?

Completely different setting, though its a very cool one

[robust tendon]

that would be cool i think

[turbid shadow]

or a 30 years war mod!

[stuck pelican]

When were great helms phased out again

[turbid shadow]

depends on what type you're talking about

there's some ones in the 14th century

[unborn tartan]

When do painted sallets become a thing? Like 1490s? I've seen an Albrecht Durer painting with what looks like one on a demi-lancer but it could be cloth-covered armor I guess

[robust tendon]

I think there was a very narrow period where they were used with plate armor

Maybe roughly 1370 ish

[unborn tartan]

this one

[stuck pelican]

I’d honestly like a 1200 - 1300~ dlc

[turbid shadow]

nah

maybe

you have kinstrife

you should really check that out because that game is gonna turn out really great like half sword

[stuck pelican]

I don’t like how it feels by the combat by the looks

[sullen charm]

by the turning point of the 1300s into the 1400s

[turbid shadow]

you should check out the demo then whenever it comes out

[sullen charm]

Thgat's a cover btw not a painting on the sallet

[stuck pelican]

Maybe, I’ll see

[prisma raven]

yooooooooooooooooooo

[edgy narwhal]

It is hard to say as we lack any clear evidence for them, but some of the depictions of black sallets at around 1500 appear to feature either a fabric/leather covering or possibly paint. Although paint is the less likely option

The helmet in the dürer print for example is a covering, probably leather

In all cases, fabric covering were always more popular overall.

me when the Döner is 6 Euros @sullen charm

also me when I realise this will never happen any more

[sullen charm]

God that's so hot

YOOO THE BANNER

[edgy narwhal]

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3146668739 check it out

[sullen charm]

i used to make a fake homebrew ordonnance company on mordhau and called it Company of the Red sun with their color being a red sun on a yellow background

because I just love suns symbols

[sullen charm]

wait it's out ?

can't be right

[edgy narwhal]

no no

just a "dev blog"

[edgy narwhal]

lol, nice

I think those are aserai default colours

it seems the sun is a custom emblem

[sullen charm]

me af

[edgy narwhal]

milf guard

[sullen charm]

fr

[reef thicket]

Nah, dilf

[edgy narwhal]

ewww

[turbid shadow]

me and bossk and april and gonadaan and crecy and everything and everyone

they are the killers

[edgy narwhal]

truly

[edgy narwhal]

edgy I love it

[prisma raven]

damn

[robust tendon]

fur trimmed thing looks really nice

There a specific name for it?

[robust tendon]

Looks warhammer fantasy esque

Very nice

[stuck pelican]

You drew?

[sullen charm]

I wish lol, no it was "Ugo Pinson"

I suggest looking him up he made a lot of good stuff

[sullen charm]

idk

[robust tendon]

dang

[ancient pivot]

I have been looking for these pictures of this guy with the velvet sallet for so long. I have the pics of the sallet by itself but I couldn't find the pics of him wearing it for the life of me. Thank you

[sullen charm]

np i found them recently lol

also found the guy's fb account a while ago but he didn't have more pictures

[ancient pivot]

probably my favourite helmet of all time. I saw the pics ages ago and wanted to show them to someone but they just vanished lol

[sullen charm]

https://www.facebook.com/maks.izobov/posts/pfbid0hbm19JYj9Xi6P5Y8HgVHEMH7XrURy7xBvPrqNULcmZr7LT4K5mUoVfkkXqHPJXxLl @ancient pivot found the maker

https://www.facebook.com/ds.baker.71 and the dude owning it apparently

[fleet junco]

add some kevlar vests

[ancient pivot]

oh cool, more angles are always nice. Might have to remake my rendition to more closely follow the original. The model I made had a full visor instead of a half visor and had a different ornament on the top

[white fulcrum]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1kXnq8H-l9IDkS4fukzFPOLGQm203Is_4s3kjib-REoo/edit#heading=h.l62oo3pkdgxx

lots and lots of brigandines

[white fulcrum]

aw man

i wanted some free steam money :(

def wasnt a virus

[short ice]

definitely not virus I promis🦠

[stuck pelican]

I NEED steam money now

[white fulcrum]

I swear I had photos of this exact houppelande

No wait I’m just high

[terse bronze]

@white fulcrum Quick!!!

[white fulcrum]

YO!!!

50 doller in my pockets..

@stuck pelican there’s one for you too!!

[terse bronze]

So considerate..!!

[stuck pelican]

So much money!

[edgy narwhal]

yoooooo the @terse bronze

[sullen charm]

yoooooooooo

fuck i mean

[terse bronze]

yooooooo

[edgy narwhal]

dellartes scots gunna be nice

[edgy narwhal]

lol

[turbid shadow]

good ass work by @surreal pawn bth

[edgy narwhal]

yeah quite nice

[surreal pawn]

thanks lul

thanks for crediting me ehe

where'd you get those renders btw @edgy narwhal? I can't remember where I posted them ehe

[edgy narwhal]

modding discord, sorry if I was not supposed to post them

[surreal pawn]

ohhh nah it's fine

i posted them publicly

here's another render ehe

[turbid shadow]

crazy work, what ever happend to you getting a job with the renown devs? did they decline you or somethin

or I'd assume you probably realized that the game is going to be garbage lol

[sullen charm]

Damn didn't know camarel was there

[surreal pawn]

They said they weren't looking for anyone atm

Tbh most places aren't hiring for tech jobs rn kinda stinks but oh well

[sullen charm]

tech industry as a whole is kinda buckling in on itself rn

[sullen charm]

sworf with spikey (ooch ouchie) pommels from Talhoffer Fechtbuch (MS Thott.290.2º) ~1459

Out of the scope of the game but too cool not to share : Sword Fiore dei Liberi, Fior di Battaglia, 1410

Same thing as fiore but early 16thc

[stuck pelican]

What’s the difference of a sworf and a sword

Also what’s a fiore

[sullen charm]

flower, but that's how a certain italian swordmaster went by

[sullen charm]

sworf

[fleet junco]

is there a version with tassets

[stuck pelican]

Understandable

[clever bramble]

https://www.getty.edu/art/collection/object/103RWJ

[vagrant charm]

Evil armet

He’s plotting

[sullen charm]

From Dr. Tobias Capwell :

English Armour Part 6!
We’ve reached the late 1450s – the Wars of the Roses has begun and continental armour merchants are sending huge armour shipments into English ports to capitalise on the demand created by this bitter dynastic struggle for power.
Dating from 1455 – the year the conflict broke out into open warfare – to the 1460s, a group of English effigies shows something else… that isn’t English. But what is it?
In the previous post we encountered a reconstruction of what I believe was a French armour, illustrated on a monument in England. Now we have something else, also continental in style, also Italianate but not Italian... but ever so slightly later and somewhat different.
As I’ve explored in the third volume of ‘Armour of the English Knight’, I believe this style, represented on a number of effigies including that of Robert, Lord Hungerford (d. 1459) at Salisbury Cathedral, is West European continental origin, appearing to be closely associated with the Dukedom of Burgundy.
Before publication of my book, I shared my research with Jeff Wasson (yep, him again) for a commission that had come to him. The resulting armour was largely a reconstruction of the armour shown on the Hungerford effigy, although the design of the vambraces was changed, to an alternative type provided within the same style and illustrated on certain monumental brasses of the same period.
The armour was equipped with a great bascinet with two visors, for the joust and for war.
This may not be the only modern armour made in this style, but it is the only one I know about.
I’m not currently in contact with the owner, so he shall remain anonymous for the present. Luckily however, Jeff took pictures before this fabulous thing went to its new home!
That's Jeffrey D Wasson stepping in as model.

[robust tendon]

Hmm one visor for the joust and one for war

Is that the armet-esque visor seen in that last image?

[sullen charm]

joust

war

[robust tendon]

i see

[turbid shadow]

the killer

[robust tendon]

thanks for the clarification

[sullen charm]

Althought imo a case could be made that the joust one could be used for war or at least a similar adapted one

[robust tendon]

Yeah its not like a frogmouth, in the sense that it isn’t really usable outside of tourney

[white fulcrum]

I wish I had thousands of dollars

[sullen charm]

a small loan of a million of dollars

[robust tendon]

you could probably get that henry II of france armor for that

[robust tendon]

maille standard

nice

[sullen charm]

this one is so good

He also made some armor for his son

[stuck pelican]

Milanese armor?

[robust tendon]

gold lance rest ❤️

[robust tendon]

Also the points on the couters look so nice

[stuck pelican]

Lovely

[sullen charm]

italian, or at least italianate

[robust tendon]

italian armet really is a classic

[sullen charm]

this effigy is flemish or english i forgo?

[turbid shadow]

I'm leaning more to Flemish

I love how this can actually be used as reference lmao

[stuck pelican]

His dad must be rich

[sullen charm]

nvm i'm dumb i think it's english with the rose necklace and shi

https://www.geni.com/people/Sir-Thomas-Hoo-Lord-of-Hoo-and-Hastings/6000000003659493469

[turbid shadow]

Armed man

but without any arms

[sullen charm]

boys will see long gauntlets/vambraces hybrids and go "hell yeah"

[robust tendon]

for me it is more articulation

[sullen charm]

hell yeah

[robust tendon]

luv me some voiders of plate

[robust tendon]

oo bases

Were they in fashion at the time of the game?

[turbid shadow]

I like this harness

[robust tendon]

I mostly see it in 16th century stuff

Paired with maximillian style plate

[sullen charm]

don't think so

[robust tendon]

dang

[sullen charm]

Or probably on rare instances for jousts during like the late 80s-90s

[robust tendon]

was it mostly white armor at the time? I’d love some cloth accessories

[sullen charm]

me af

[robust tendon]

i love those cuirasses

Such a nice shape man

[sullen charm]

tabards/surcoats/hoquetons were very popular tho

[hybrid heath]

Bro that kid is cool as fuck

[robust tendon]

hmm i figured they mostly fell out of fashion

[sullen charm]

or even like scheckes and shit

[sullen charm]

hell naw

[robust tendon]

yeah heraldry is essential

[turbid shadow]

schekes are gonna be so cool

[robust tendon]

for knowing who you fighting in a battle

[sullen charm]

talking about hoquetons....

[robust tendon]

oo very nice

[turbid shadow]

fill the chat boys

with da scheke

[robust tendon]

btw where do you all find these refs?

[turbid shadow]

or anything

[sullen charm]

i make them up

[stuck pelican]

What are those like.. chain mail shorts called

[sullen charm]

maille braies

[robust tendon]

I seldom find good ones

[turbid shadow]

low res man

[robust tendon]

looks like that one kastenbrust

Museum piece

[turbid shadow]

I wonder if heroic armor would be out of place in HS

I'd love to see it as some rare ass armor

[robust tendon]

blued armor man

[stuck pelican]

Heroic armor?

[turbid shadow]

he doesn't know

[sullen charm]

all'antica

[prisma raven]

where did you get this one from?

[stuck pelican]

[sullen charm]

on facebook

[prisma raven]

ok thanks

[sullen charm]

attack the d point

[robust tendon]

Oh i saw this one

Looked ahistorical though at first look

[robust tendon]

Nice

[sullen charm]

defend the D point

[turbid shadow]

danger

[stuck pelican]

No!

Attack the C point!

[turbid shadow]

guh

I think this bad boy is late to the game by 5 years

[sullen charm]

the

[turbid shadow]

foot combat harness from 1485?

[sullen charm]

yeah

[turbid shadow]

oh mah

[sullen charm]

the composite man

[turbid shadow]

we have that torso in aeternis

grahh someone should make an alt of it

[sullen charm]

the one we have in aeternis is a similar infantry oriented export piece

[sullen charm]

so without the tassets

[sullen charm]

georges jolliot my beloved

[stuck pelican]

Where are the armor sets with exposed legs

[sullen charm]

big chungus laugh

[stuck pelican]

Why is he so thick

[reef thicket]

Looks like sumo armor

[fleet junco]

i like this picture

[sullen charm]

late 16thc i think

didn't post it to be used a ref for the game, i find find it funny

[hybrid heath]

Dose anyone have a pic of just a front chest plate, i would appreciate it cause I’m working on something atm

[sullen charm]

any one in particular ?

[hybrid heath]

Im mostly looking for something with articulation and some sort of skirt, I’ve look around a lot but I can only really find something where the front is one piece

[vocal vale]

where do those sallet decorations that look like little orbs on top of their head come from?

[sullen charm]

hows that

[sullen charm]

pretty much everywhere tbh but pretty popular in burgundy, france, england ect

[hybrid heath]

I actually really like the second one, is there anymore like it, maybe without the arms

[white fulcrum]

I think they’re used to hold plumes too if I know what you’re talking about

[vocal vale]

i usually only see them in reenactor photos, do they symbolize anything? what’re they called?

[white fulcrum]

Do these work?

[hybrid heath]

Where are you finding these

[sullen charm]

,

[white fulcrum]

honestly first photos I could find in my albums

[sullen charm]

some of these have arms but hopefully a bit clearer to see the cuirass itself

[sullen charm]

they just pretty, I think they're called orbs

[vocal vale]

that’s cool

[white fulcrum]

Pinterest usually

Or just discord servers

[vocal vale]

^^

[sullen charm]

big mac whopper

[hybrid heath]

God these are gorgeous

I’m tryin to make armor myself and I can’t get good pics, and the ones I had I seem to have lost

[fleet junco]

here you guys go

i remember it being called angel wings or something

1470

[sullen charm]

i love fishtail placards so much !!!!!

[vagrant charm]

Goes hard

[sullen charm]

so cool

[fleet junco]

What happened to the left cuisse

[sullen charm]

https://tenor.com/view/ntuni-cat-chew-crunch-funny-gif-23922784

[prisma raven]

fr

The Castellanos

[robust tendon]

kastenbrust and bevor with falling lame

[vocal vale]

love the grand bascinet

[fleet junco]

we need bascinet in game

[robust tendon]

brig plackart ❤️

[fleet junco]

the one with the black brig looks off

[robust tendon]

hmm in what way

[fleet junco]

it doesnt look like they should be together

[robust tendon]

oh i see

i believe it's historical

i'll see if i can find a iconography reference

boom

[fleet junco]

I know brigandine with plackart exists but it looks like the plackart looks a bit big for the brigandine

[robust tendon]

oh, i see what you meant

eh it looks fine to me

maybe just a little bit off, idk

[sullen charm]

there's no clear indication that's a brigandine under the placard

[robust tendon]

maybe not, but it has the same three studs that you see in brigandines

to hold the thing together

[sullen charm]

"brigandine with placard" show up in text but we can't say for sure they were talking about placard placard since they mention arrest ect

[sullen charm]

pretty classic and widespread pattern

[robust tendon]

i see it as unlikely for arming clothes under it

[sullen charm]

could very well just be a covered breastplate with the placard on top (plenty of sources showing that done clearly in italy for instance)

[robust tendon]

yeah maybe, that makes sense

[sullen charm]

brigandine surcoat !!

italians wearing their giornea over the bp but under the placard

[robust tendon]

i see

but what's the purpose of not covering the placard? is it just a style choice?

[sullen charm]

yeah

[robust tendon]

i think in this its a lot more clear

but the one i used seems to be a brigandine

although there is a strange decoration thing below the waist, i've not seen it look like that on brigandines

that could be the artist's choice though

and also he's wearing so much plate otherwise, it may just be a covering like you mentioned, idk

[sullen charm]

Makes way more sense for a gendarme/knight to wear a breastplate rather than a brig tbh

and the few ones that do show up with a brig in MS are only rocking the brig

[robust tendon]

yeah, i don't see it having much of a purpose

[sullen charm]

I just remembered something wait a min

[robust tendon]

other than maybe a bit more flexibility but the armor is also not that limiting anyways so that may not matter

[sullen charm]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/51634888840/in/album-72157603168542128/

[robust tendon]

very strange design

looks alot more clearly to be solid plate here

[sullen charm]

https://www.flickr.com/photos/roelipilami/2022574535/in/album-72157603168542128/

[robust tendon]

hmmm here you can kind of see where the individual plates are

not as solid looking as the other one

[sullen charm]

Look a bit too globose to me to be a brig tbh

and this is straight up just a velvet cover however note the "tri rivet" pattern of the pearls on the placard

[robust tendon]

yeah i'm thinking it's a decoration thing, and not actually brig but idk it could be

not really clear

[sullen charm]

welcome to the literal decade long debate over placard over brig......

[white fulcrum]

this is very pretty

i really like the reflection detail on the plackart

really nice work from the creator

[sullen charm]

imagine you're the devil or something (loser) and just see Saint Michael descending from heavens like that

idk man i'd be fed up

[sullen charm]

(Bermejo)

[robust tendon]

this gold looking armor is interesting, i wonder if it was actually used. not in battle but as decorative pieces

[sullen charm]

If you spend so much in plating your harness gold why would you keep in inside

[robust tendon]

i dunno, money to waste i suppose

[sullen charm]

the battlefield is THE place to show off dah absurd amount of wealth

[robust tendon]

i suppose you could make it work by plating over it

[sullen charm]

we know for sure Charles the bold had one and there's very strong chances french king had one aswell

[sullen charm]

wdym?

[robust tendon]

well gold can't be used as armor right?

[sullen charm]

(charles the bold also commissioned a sallet which alone costed around 3-4 complete harness)

[robust tendon]

so you just have steel and have gold over that, maybe

[sullen charm]

"plating your harness"

it's not solid gold, it's plated with mercury amalgam

[robust tendon]

i see

[sullen charm]

nasty fumes... !

[robust tendon]

i figured it was something like how they blackened armor

[sullen charm]

iicr the process : take a steel something, put gold leaves on it, pour boiling mercury over the gold

by chemistry magic of amalgamation the gold will bond with the steel

[robust tendon]

I assume thats what they did to make this yeah?

[sullen charm]

yes

[robust tendon]

looking into charles the bold i found this

jacket i believe. it was from reddit and not sure it is accurate, but it says 1470 so this could potentially fit into the game

looks very nice

[sullen charm]

the front

[fleet junco]

it looks GIRLY

[sullen charm]

different overall cut but pretty much the same garment

[robust tendon]

ye may as well be

[sullen charm]

another burgundian/french doublet

[fleet junco]

is there a reason with nobles having puffs on the shoulders

or generally around it

[sullen charm]

fashion, and wasn't only nobles

[robust tendon]

thats a big rondel dagger

like a shortsword

[sullen charm]

that shoulder ball is pretty specific to french speaking areas (that includes burgundy)

a big rondel dagga

[robust tendon]

puffy clothes were pretty popular late and post medieval, just got more and more extreme

[fleet junco]

i had seen an argument about "there is no other circular pommel or crossguards that are on longer blades"

[robust tendon]

landsknetchs and such

[fleet junco]

are there more examples of large rondel

[sullen charm]

not that i'm aware of?

[vocal vale]

this is one of my favorite fashion choices

is it pronounced "jor-knee-ay" or "zheor-ni-uh"

[sullen charm]

use google translate

[vocal vale]

wow i forgot about that somehow

i looked it up like 3 times trying to find an answer and that didnt occur to me

middle ground, "jor-ni-uh"

[turbid shadow]

the two sides

[clever bramble]

Which text is this from?

[sullen charm]

the ms miniatures?

left is Français 51, fol. 34, Martyre de s. césaire et julien de terracina

the martyrdom of St. Savinian (BNF Fr. 50, fol. 324v)

[sullen charm]

?

[golden ingot]

That’s what snow looks like

[smoky topaz]

Most inappropriate

[prisma raven]

Saint Florian (1450–1467), Hans Multscher, Stiftung Deutschhaus Sterzing.

[short ice]

casual reminder of Bardiche when

[sullen charm]

never

[robust tendon]

nice doublet

looks padded, a little bit

[short ice]

I sob

[edgy narwhal]

there has been one teased in wip already

[sullen charm]

From Tobias Capwell : English Armour Lives! Part 7!

This one features Phillip Leitch from Australia.
I met Phil in 2010 at a joust down under, and I’m pretty sure we were talking about his English armour project soon after. None of my ‘Armour of the English Knight’ books had been published yet, but I was pleased to share my research and pool it with what Phil had done.
Phil decided to reconstruct the remarkable armour depicted on the effigy of Sir William Harcourt (d. 1482) at Aston, near Birmingham.

This armour represents the zenith of the English style in the 1470s, documented in ‘Armour of the English Knight’ Book 2. This is English armour in its most flamboyant and distinctive form – the flutes are like crawling vines, the shapes vegetal and organic, the decoration literally blossoming.
Phil’s fabulous armour is the work of Luke Binks Red Hart Reproductions also a jouster and armour user, with a sharp eye for the right shapes, proportions and details and the skilled hands to realise them in hardened steel.

The first version of Phil’s armour was completed in 2013, when Phil became a professional jouster, using the harness around 170 times a year in combat Kryal Castle in Australia.
To date Phil has logged around 5100 hours in his armour. He has run thousands of joust courses, fought on foot and in the tourney, and even completed a 5km charity ‘fun run’ fully armed. He reports that ‘it has served me well’.

The extent of the armour has expanded since 2013. Phil now has an armet, a great bascinet with three visors, and he just recently added a sallet and bevor as well. He tells me that
‘I continue to adjust and play with how my harness fits in an endless game of finding that thing that will make it even 1% more comfortable… I feel indestructible in it.’

[fleet junco]

tobias feyfar wore this? oh my god!

[sullen charm]

toe bias

[vocal vale]

i love english besagews

they seemed to be creative when it came to their shape

[vocal vale]

that is a BIG looking cuirass

[robust tendon]

big cuirass for big guy perhaps

[vocal vale]

chrue, chrue

[tight sand]

did u buy his book?

[sullen charm]

only the latest one

[unborn tartan]

I thought it was having a placard over a cloth covered breastplate? To me it seems weird to wear a placard over a brig but maybe they did.

[robust tendon]

two rather handsome fellas

not too sure on the accuracy but they don’t look that egregious.

[robust tendon]

Maybe

But the thing is

Most of the potential depictions are all people wearing a lot of plate

why use a brigandine when you already have full plate harness everywhere else?

I think its almost certainly a decorative thing

The only reason i can think of is flexibility

But the thing is with plate is that mostly is no issue

Since its often tailored to the body

i could see common soldiers using brig + plackart but i dont think there are depictions of that

And even then why not just use a munitions plate and instead this weird hybrid of brig and solid plate

[sullen charm]

covered barbute.....

my GOODNESS!!!!

[robust tendon]

1460-1465

A great basc with fluted(?) flowery rondels and bellows sallet

cavalryman with fringed hood and a common soldier looking fellow with padded jack over maille and jack chains

An effigy looking fellow, but not sure if this is modern or a historical effigy

looks very different from most funerary or whatever effigies

that i’ve seen

[white fulcrum]

I love sallets 😜

[robust tendon]

my favorite helmets include the celata and the celata and also the celata

[tight sand]

do u have pdf version or u bought a physical one. I wanna buy it so bad but i doubt that i have it in my country mb there are way to buy a pdf version

[tight sand]

the last one goes hard asf

if i am not mistaken i ve seen this armor in duel video

[sullen charm]

awh man i love the celata! soo much better than the celata in both practicality and fashion

[white fulcrum]

the celata’s pretty ugly tbh

but the celata….

[edgy narwhal]

because it is not a funerary effigy, this is part of a historical fountain from the late 15th century. It is called the "Fischkasten" and is located in Ulm

[white fulcrum]

Hello gonadaan

[edgy narwhal]

henlo

[white fulcrum]

consider?

[robust tendon]

thanks for the clarification

its a quite nice armor depicted

Looks blued but it may not be attempting to portray that

[fleet junco]

Add lobster suits

[sullen charm]

I'm also thinking they did mostly wear a placard over a covered breastplate. Mainly because well, the "rivet pattern" on it also appears on helmets for instance, so that can't be taken at face value to be a brigandine, but rather a cover with a "brigandine" pattern cuz fashion (You can even see in that first pic the metal edges of the breastplate near the armpits)

In the 1471 burgundian ordonnance, coustillier (light cav) are asked to have a placard with lance rest and the back should be of brigandine

Problem is, we have no clue what that could mean, and most likely not what we nowadays call a placard (the triangular lower part of the cuirass that buckles up) but probably moreso a breastplate, and then there's the mystery of the "back being of brigandine" but that's another can of worms

[sullen charm]

I have the physical version

[sullen charm]

my meme going places 🔥

[vocal vale]

@sullen charm is there a point to a sallet with an articulated tail?

[sullen charm]

Flexin'..

Can be virtually longer and more flexible when you up and ect

[vocal vale]

they do look cool but every time i see them i think they look a little impractical

[sullen charm]

how so?

That being said most sallets have fixed tails

There's also these sort of sallets (mainly found in france and burgundy) with the tail itself being an articulation

[vocal vale]

i just.. dont see the point

could you verbally illustrate a scenario where it'd help you somehow

[sullen charm]

I feel like it's a mix of fashion and just being able to look up and down without having the tail being straight

so folding when you look up and falling back of your nape when you look down

But honestly not sure, I personally don"t like articulated tail

[white fulcrum]

uhhh articulated tails are usually longer than fixed ones to my knowledge so I’m guessing mobility could be a reason

[sullen charm]

they can be

There's also those add-ons articulated tails that's you'd see worn alongside kettles, and even other sallets

like here

[stuck pelican]

The cake

[obsidian walrus]

z

[sullen charm]

y

[reef thicket]

x

[white fulcrum]

w

[clever bramble]

&

[robust tendon]

If thats the case i reckon you’d mostly see it among archers

I don’t see it being very useful for foot or cavalry

[sullen charm]

That's the opposite actually, you see long articulated tails on sallet mainly on cavalry

archers and infantry (when they do have articulation) mostly have these :

[robust tendon]

I see, interesting

i figured that an archer would look up more than a footman or cavalryman, hence the use for articulated sallet tails

[turbid shadow]

so fucking good

[turbid shadow]

this is some nice art.. but sadly it doesn't meet what the game wants to be

the armor here is out of the period and I'm pretty sure its fantasy

[honest cargo]

What’s the concept?

[honest cargo]

its around 1400s

i think

[turbid shadow]

1430-1480 to be precise

[honest cargo]

ah okay

[real quiver]

That's fantasy armour

[real quiver]

Can't go wrong with Capwell

[turbid shadow]

Exactly

[sullen charm]

GGRGAAAHHHH

[robust tendon]

Not appropriate for the game but this is solid fantasy gear

[sullen charm]

AI ART DETECTED

ODD ARTIFACTING AND MUSHY, BLURRED DETAILS .RANDOM CUTOFF AND STRANGE TEXTUREWORK.

[honest cargo]

Yeah iirc I found it on this website

with super colourful

english armour

I thought it would be cool

as I was scrolling through my photos tryna find a lasagne picture 😭

[sullen charm]

ai sucks at historical plate thank christ

it can only cook up nonsensical fantasy slop..

[robust tendon]

ooo

Nice armor

[turbid shadow]

Hah, look at who's already been made

[robust tendon]

the gentlemen

[robust tendon]

bretagne hermine

[robust tendon]

oo eagle crest

very nice

[robust tendon]

also luv me a good crowned sallet

[robust tendon]

The pollmen

[robust tendon]

love a good poll

[robust tendon]

best one

those sabatons are really nice

also love a gothic cuirass waist

Wasp waist?

[fleet junco]

Add 14th century armor

[sullen charm]

this one look bad.. !

All the other pics are impeccable tho

[turbid shadow]

Mb

[sullen charm]

From Tobias Capwell :
So, we have reached the end of the living history of English armour... for now.
Our journey ends in c. 1485, with a reconstruction of the armour depicted on two effigies, father and son, of Nicholas Fitzherbert (d.1473), and Ralph Fitzherbert (d. 1483), at Norbury in Derbyshire.
The owner of this armour is Milan Kl, and it was made by Markus Siefert (except the current helmet) in Germany.
The effigies forming the project's primary references were almost certainly made between 1483 and 1485, since that of Ralph displays the livery collar of Richard III, with central pendant in the form of the white boar. The father wears a Yorkist collar carrying the white lion of March, the badge of King Edward IV, so construction of this monument could conceivably have begun before Richard III's reign, but probably not very much before it.
Fittingly enough for my last (?) post in this series, Milan's armour is not yet complete - construction is ongoing. Leg armour and other parts will appear, hopefully in the near future!
I was very pleased to have the chance to have a look at this armour at #feldlager2023 in Thuringia. Maybe we will see the completed armour at the next one in 2025!
So far, I don't know anyone who is building an English armour of the 1490s. Let me know if you are!
The photos of Milan were taken by Jan Štábl - Reenactment photography Daniel Burger and @_saschamarx , at the Feldlager.

[edgy narwhal]

Mmmmmmm innsbruck style

[stuck pelican]

https://tenor.com/view/roll-knights-gif-5364815

Knights have NO Flexability!

[robust tendon]

Attributed to lorenz helmschmid, 1480-1485 augsburg

This could also very well be a modern forgery according to the source

Its a rather unorthodox design imo, looks a lot like the pieces seen in the Thun sketchbook

apparently a foot combat helm

frontal

[robust tendon]

god damn the mirror polish

Absolutely gorgeous

[white fulcrum]

oh yeah this funny sallet haha

[robust tendon]

its more like a great bascinet or bicoque tbh

Sallets always got da tail

Kastenbrust

[sullen charm]

Master of Laufen! Painted between 1455 and 1460: The Carrying of the Cross and the Crucifixion of Christ. With details of various suits of armour. Exhibited in the Lower Belvedere in Vienna.

[robust tendon]

flower besagews ❤️

[sullen charm]

https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/pavois-david-et-goliath-c77499fe36024ce5984e9139794cf3e0

https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/saint-florian-fa5cf79cdf18430da5c00a3f913ed4f1

[robust tendon]

another st florian depiction

1470 i believe

[sullen charm]

indeed

[robust tendon]

another st florian piece, in strasbourg cathedral. could not find anything relating to the period though

[sullen charm]

The few sources I could find claim it's 16thc

Which somewhat match what I thougt, i had in mind 1490s

also during my quick search i found this which is always hilarious to behold

[robust tendon]

crazy

yea 1490s sounds about right, kind of looks like one of maximillian's suits

that was made around that time

[sullen charm]

Yeah that's what I had in mind

Gothic maximilian harness; Sigismund's one ect..

Very similar

[clever bramble]

According to all the documentaries on Netflix this is indeed a fact.

[tight sand]

what kind of work these guys have. Just buying a horse and sustain it will cost a lot of money and these horses have plate armor. And the fella carrying a proper full harness

[sullen charm]

That's a passion..!! And ppl rarely just commission a full harness right away, it's a journey .....

[tight sand]

these people are goats. its like they turned their child dreams into real life

[sullen charm]

fr

[unborn tartan]

are they deliberately trying to show that it happened a long time ago by showing outdated armor (like the hounskull)? I would guess that almost no one used them anymore by 1455

[terse bronze]

It's very probable yes, even later crucifixion and resurrection scenes sometimes show bascinets ( its bossk btw i'm just on my phone on my main account)

[robust tendon]

Bicoque

[sullen charm]

Ca. 1430 this draft for a tomb for duke Ludwig the bearded of Bayern-Ingolstadt was made by Hans Multscher in Ulm

Housed at the BNM

[robust tendon]

ludwig the bearded

truly a top class name

Hm is that a cape he has?

Or some weird decorative cloth that is only attached to the arm harness?

a generic HRE fella

Would love to see these kinds of heraldic surcoats/tabards in the game

[stuck pelican]

Looks pretty awesome

[vocal vale]

i think tabards might be too early for this game? i dont remember seeing any into the 1400s

[turbid shadow]

hahaha

[vocal vale]

what're these kinds of shields called? i saw one yesterday and i couldnt remember was it was called and it kind of irked me

[vocal vale]

to be clear the shaded parts are further back than the unshaded part, that's the only way i could figure out how to draw it

shaped like a pavise but much much smaller

like 2 feet long

[robust tendon]

No i believe they were still in use

Less commonly maybe

[sullen charm]

Pavises, Pavese, Pavois

[robust tendon]

white armor was, of course, super popular but tabards for heraldry still were a thing i think

[sullen charm]

Yes, very common

[vocal vale]

whenever i think of a tabard i think of a long rectangular poncho

but i tend to overclassify surcoats because it discomforts me when things are a blanket term

if you have a photo of a late tabard i'd like to save it for later use .. . .

[sullen charm]

surcoat and tabard are pretty synonymous in the 15thc tbh

[robust tendon]

thats a nice one

Blued + gilded arm and leg harness

found this in another server and the poster didn’t say much about the dating other than early 15th

[stuck pelican]

Pavise?

[vocal vale]

i was told the small ones are called hand pavises

[stuck pelican]

Wouldn’t that be just a bouche

[sullen charm]

No

hand held pavise are still in a shape of a pavise, in order for a shield/targe to be called bouche or ecranche, it needs to have that cutout

[stuck pelican]

I don’t think my brain is big enough to be able to learn car parts and how the systems work, and then also learn medieval terms and school stuff without me having a aneurysm and dying

[sullen charm]

bouche in french = mouth

[stuck pelican]

So it’s just a shield with a opening

[sullen charm]

the shield itself would be called a targe, the cutout bouche or ecranche but occasionally that detail would be used to name the entire shield (iicr)

but most of the time, it's still a targe

https://sketchfab.com/3d-models/pavois-david-et-goliath-c77499fe36024ce5984e9139794cf3e0

these are pavise/pavese/pavois

[stuck pelican]

so small sheilds are targe, sheild with opening is bouche, and big sheild is pavise

[sullen charm]

targes tend to have openings, called bouche/ecranche iicr

As always with terminology it's mostly "so basically they were called like that except when they weren't"

[stuck pelican]

Medieval over complications

[sullen charm]

just like how triangular tended to be called écu / éscu

and sometimes.. not

must mostly were!

giving the name "escutcheon" to the little ID shields you sometimes see worn on surcoats or aventails

[clever bramble]

People living in the medieval Era didn't classify to the extent we do in modern times which makes it messy. During KCD development there was a lively debate on what Messer vs Grosse Messer vs longsword vs greatsword

[bright token]

Helmet refs

[robust tendon]

plume + crest

would any of you happen to have 15th century plate voider references?

[sullen charm]

https://collections.louvre.fr/ark:/53355/cl010091128

[sullen charm]

ca. 1489-1500 - 'St. George' (Hans Grünewalt and/or workshop), copy, Pilatushaus, Nürnberg, Bayern, Germany (A wooden copy of an original metal statue which was destroyed in 1945)

[fleet junco]

cake

[white fulcrum]

plate voiders mustve been peak

wonder why they arent more common in 16th century armour

[sullen charm]

literally just easier and more forgiving to have maille

[lyric light]

1400-1425

[sullen charm]

blurry ass pics can't see a damn thing

Looks more like maille tbh

[lyric light]

theres blatant lines

https://za.pinterest.com/macs_shop/voiders-of-plate/

[robust tendon]

easier i understand as it definitely was more difficult to make than just using maille voiders but what do you mean by more forgiving?

[sullen charm]

Having plate me as asticulate as maille is pretty difficult and fragile, if you take some damage to the tiny articulated plates it can hinger your movement (as the plates not sliding properly anymore)

whereas maille it's less of a problem, if any

[robust tendon]

i see, makes sense as to why it's not very common at all then

[sullen charm]

Maille is always a safe bet tbh

[robust tendon]

yeah, the protection offered by voiders of plate is also probably negligible over good quality maille

[sullen charm]

Not that it really matters but tbh I would unironically chose maille 9 times out of 10

[robust tendon]

i'd think it wasn't used very much in real battle, mostly a decorative addition for non-field plate as plate voiders do look quite nice tbh

[sullen charm]

always useful

related megathread : https://twitter.com/Eol4242/status/1653764675253805059

Eol (Comms Closed) (@Eol4242) on X

⚔️Armour of a French Man-at-Arms⚔️
🧵 MEGATHREAD I/IV 🧵

Or an attempt at a solid reference sheet for armour pieces and vocabulary from the mid-15th c. in the French-speaking area.

Explanations, sources, translation commentaries and so on. Buckle up (and check alt texts).
1/15

Twitter · May 3, 2023, 2:13 PM

[robust tendon]

interesting that the lower waist plate is referred to as a tonlet

i thought tonlets were those skirt things you see in later 16th century tourney armor

[sullen charm]

tonlets in the 16thc also appear on many field armors! but yeah the 15thc "version" is pretty much the same thing but smaller with your thing about it

a sort of skirt-ish of metal lames

[robust tendon]

i see

[tight sand]

do you have similar pictures of other regions ?