Nerf listening ability.

[storm root]

So i’m a bunny main and i noticed when you have 4 keys or more you can just use the listening ability for a very long time(until magician charge runs out).
That being said it is too op to delay the bunny’s that much or being forced to give away position.

I tried it also on the magician’s percpective and trust me i’m not good but just by spamming that ability, recharge and repeat you can just delay the game so much that all bunny’s die due to no time left on the clock.

is this normal or am i seeing this wrong?

[hallow wyvern]

I believe I'm in the minority here, but if bunnies are on a lower floor, this allows them time to go up to the rest of their team, and if there are so many bunnies on the same floor the Magician can't chase them all.

However, I am a Magician main, so take this with a grain of salt

[little wagon]

If bunnies are in the lower floor they can use pings and the lower area is not massive, its easy to find your teammates quick once they start completing an objective or even earlier

Listen doesnt change the gameplay much in this regard

What it does, as you mentioned "if there are so many bunnies on the same floor the Magician can't chase them all." is promote rush play so the Magician has no time to use the ability, but it comes at the cost of sacrificing stealth as it renders it obsolete

If you play it "stealthy" and play dead whenever the Listen happens, you lose so much time and you have to do it so often that it just stalls the game forever and you run out of time

So there's no point on utilizing any of the stealth mechanics present in the game, which was originally the main Bunny focus

Now its either you play "red light-green light" endlessly and die or you ignore it and compromise your position essentially giving the Magi (almost) infinite wallhacks if they abuse Listen, so there's no point on playing slow on that situation and you are forced to rush

The ability was a rush counter-messure but its not working as intended

On top of having to listen to a loud Shhh followed by a hart beat that lasts until your aura is no longer revealed every 1min (if abused), which is a total of 15 times aprox on a 30min match, which is highly annoying and gets old quick

So yeah, I'd nerf it/remove it for sure

There's been a lot of posts about this already, hope we get some news soon

Bunnies make sound cues that Magi can follow by activating an objective, winding up a teammate, running, using voip, pinging, jumping, playing dead (also makes a sound when dropping to the ground) essentially every bunny action but walk or stand sill makes a sound the Magi can follow, on top of ticketmen, imposter bunnies, active imposter bunnies. My question is, does he really need a stalling/wallhack ability on top of that he can easily spam every minute? Lasting up to 2mins or more (Some posts mention 4mins at full charge) At what point is it too much? Now not even walking or standing still is safe, miss the 2second mark to play dead and not even playing dead will save you. Again, isnt it too much?

If "too many bunnies to manage" is the problem Magi faces and not locating them (as they already had the tools for this), wouldnt it be better to revert to 1v4 instead of making the bunny experience so miserable for new/solo players that dont have a team to fully coordinate the rush? If slowing down premades was the intention it didnt work, they rushed before and they must rush even more now than stealth is not really an option anymore

And most importantly, is it really fun? For either team, is standing still on radar mode/playing dead every minute really the hook of this game? Because thats pretty much the gameplay now, either that or rushing.

Thanks for reading hope you understand my point of view leaving it here not to spam the channel too much.

[hazy plover]

Yeah just remove the ability and let the bunny prep every gear at objectif quietly or hostage the match for 20min without doing anything.

Bunny did need more advantage after, if they cant save every grab or reach upper without need team work its unfun.

[thorny plank]

I think its an unnecesary ability, magician can find bunnies so easily without the listening, you have cards and you have the ticketmans

[hazy plover]

(Just want to say that was only sarcasm.)

[thorny plank]

And you have all the notifications

In my opinion as a veteran player i hate this ability, It turns the game in a lower experience, and make bunnies waste a lot of time. I play games that we cant climb more than 1 floor because the magician spam this ability

But at the same time i have games as magician that i cant find anybody, i know thats dounds oposite opinions but this ability need ajustments, (more cooldown & fast charge drain )

[hazy plover]

Lol the "veteran player" being scared of the reveal.
I dont think its the fault of the ability if you cant do 3 objectif with 5 bunny.
You should ask yourself.

[thorny plank]

I mean that you have to play dead every 10 seconds

[hazy plover]

More exagerated plz.

[thorny plank]

Its just an opinion

But its true that this ability is op

[hazy plover]

No its not, that's indeed your opinion.

[thorny plank]

And its a problem that you can spam It with no penalitation

[hazy plover]

High mmr have prooven that this ability is fine and nearly useless against coordinated bunny.

And its clearly not this one that carry the magi.

[thorny plank]

There is low cooldown and no charge consumption

Thats not fair

[hazy plover]

There is both, and its just an info ability, that do basically nothing over the game beside have some info.

[thorny plank]

Is literaly a wallhack

[lusty tangle]

it is not infact a op abbilty while yes at low mmr its good at high mmr its a total waste of time 90% of the time

[hazy plover]

Like the magi is stuck in this state while using it, its not like he got full wallhack and can still tp in it.

[thorny plank]

This ability is new, and the game works perfectly without it

[hazy plover]

0 argument here.

[lusty tangle]

its not a good ability but thats not because of its strength its flawed at a fundamental level at pretty much every level of play

[hazy plover]

Bunny are already the strong role, some info ability to use isn't that bad.

[thorny plank]

As i said you have a lot of information as magician, alerts, ticketmans, cards etc

[hazy plover]

Info arent an issue.

[thorny plank]

Is an issue if you get free wallhack with no penalitation

[hazy plover]

If every bunny move there is info everywhere and he cant respond to all the notif.

[lusty tangle]

info is never a issue i mean i can beat top 10 teams without a single use of it its just boring is the problem

[lusty tangle]

the penalty is time magis time is the most important thing he has

[hazy plover]

Didn't you that you are standing still while using it ?

[thorny plank]

Magician is a powerfull killer with a high map pressure

[hazy plover]

Lol that's the best joke of the post ngl.

[lusty tangle]

powerful is a interesting take on it

[hazy plover]

Imagine thinking hunter is the strong role.

[thorny plank]

I play the 2 roles

And i main magician more than bunny

[hazy plover]

Yes and you playing against bozo just like every other magi player.

[thorny plank]

And i can say that you dont need this ability to end a game quickly

[hazy plover]

If you are getting carried by the sshh there is a problem somewhere else.

[lusty tangle]

yeah so im not looking at it now but im what top 80? in the world as a magi main just beating the #2 bunny 5 stack im sure in your mmr its true but in high mmr its much much diffrent

[thorny plank]

In other playtrsts i was the top 20

[lusty tangle]

if you are relying on shh to fill your downtime something is wrong with you or the bunnies

oh i didnt know shh was a thing back then

[thorny plank]

That i want to say is that ability needs a nerf because in his actual state breacks the game velocity and convert the game in a dead body simulator

And its not fun to be a prop of the map

[hazy plover]

And so you are wrong as we explain to you in the last 10min.

[thorny plank]

You are a new player true?

[lusty tangle]

it dosnt need a nerf that wouldn't solve the core issue it needs a rework

[thorny plank]

Im agree

[lusty tangle]

then its not nerf shh its rework shh

[hazy plover]

Bro you were saying that you cant pass the 2 floor because of a listening ability dont try to be the old player now.

[steady cradle]

I believe the implementation of this was just a "first pass" of sorts and a couple small details got missed. Namely:

• a bug where the moment you hit the button, you get the spot, rather than the supposed two second delay to play dead. As mentioned, I believe this part is a bug and should be fixed, as it can lead to lucky lil scenarios where a magi happens to be looking in the right direction to catch someone because they dont have inhuman reaction times. looks like this was fixed in the recent patch! I thought it seemed to be working normally when I was magi, but I just assumed I wasnt getting lucky to see someone in front of me.

• you can effectively hold it forever in it's current state, stalling out the game at low MMR, but providing no real benefit to the magi otherwise, effectively just leaving it as a trolling/toxicity tool at lower MMRs. I think theyre looking to fix this also so theres just a hard cap on it's use, but Im not 100% sure.

Id start there. From there, things like ability cooldown and charge drain can be looked at if it still seems too oppressive. I dont believe it should be entirely removed, as it's a suitable counter to bunnies playing super quiet and slow that allows the magician to try and involve themselves in the game more/be more proactive.

[thorny plank]

As i said is an unnecesary abilty that never exist in the past playtrsts and magician can beat easily the bunnies

I start in the first closed Alpha

[hazy plover]

Yeah thats why even with it the most high magi are struggeling against the bunny.

[thorny plank]

In my opinión the game needs to be 4 VS 1 again

[hazy plover]

We can at least agree on that.

[thorny plank]

The 5 bunnies breacks the game balance

Because the game was balanced before the 5v1 update

[lusty tangle]

tbh i think with less items 1v5 could work

the main trouble i have is every chase taking 40+ seconds because they use 2-3 items

plus all the items they use outside of chase

[thorny plank]

I have games that i have all my inventory full of items and others that i cant find anything

[lusty tangle]

thats the rng factor of this game

[thorny plank]

Yep hahaha

[sudden totem]

Preach

[little wagon]

True its useless besides being annoying and used to troll/be toxic I agree

I feel like the people that like it so much (so far only seen very few players) are because they like to use it to be toxic and stall the game or just spam it to be annoying, the “its more info” excuse is kinda bs, there’s already a lot of info for the Magi without it

[little wagon]

I see no one addressing this

Having cues for every sound plus ticketmen and imposters should be enough, if you need wallhacks in top of that you’re just bad at the game, it is what it is

plus it doesnt really help you any more than what you already have, there’s so much info to locate bunnies as Magi that I think most of ppl use it just to stall the game

and not to locate bunnies but to force them to play dead

[little wagon]

You say so yourself, info is not an issue, so whats the use for Listen really? Just be annoying with it, thats the real use. And yeah, it is boring to play against as you also mentioned

People defending it keep contradicting themselves and making no sense, so Id take their feedback with a grain of salt as it seems they’re just trolling (this user did the same thing on a previous post)

What is it then? You need more info? Info is not an issue? Make up your mind before you start arguing about it man

Thats all I have to say, dont want to turn this post into an endless argument like the previous one, good day lads

[little wagon]

I think no one can really argue with this no matter how you look at it

If you really think you need Listen and feel so overwhelmed by bunnies without it, maybe going back to 1v4 or having another sort of ability that is fun to use/play against is better than keeping this broken features almost everyone dislikes. Just food for thought, it doesnt have to be like this, we could have something better instead, that cant be abused and that its enjoyable

Magi needed some help at high mmr and with premades from what I hear, but this ability doesn’t help there at all, it only makes new player/solo players time miserable having to deal with it so often, it can be used 15 times per match and up to 2-4mins of duration each time, it is not reasonable nor fun.

Not saying Magis get nothing, just saying they should get something fun to play against, like active imposters, those were a neat addition

Trying to justify abusable wallhacks in a stealth game is beyond my comprehension

[hazy plover]

Bro is taking the best out of context i ever see, the last message is for the bunny since being seen isn't an issue for them, if everyone doing thing the one that stealth on the first floor (You) will not be seen.
The ability doesn't stun you, you can actually move with the risk of being chased after if you are the only one moving.
But since the magi cannot move its pure info and it end when the magi move so its easy to play around it.

I have said that multiple time that you are just craving for advantage cause you don't want to play around an ability of the killer.
Its really tiring that in every asymmetrical game some surv/bunny player want advantage that bad that they got nerf ability on the other side that are fair just because they want to be the main character and don't comms in a role that just need coordination to be overpowered.

[little wagon]

Its not about advantage, the ability is nothing but annoying, its just not needed you already know where bunnies are by all the sound cues you get

I dont mind a challenging ability to play against, but this one is just not fun, its not challenging either, its just annoying and serves no purpose other than trying to stall the game

[little wagon]

You make no effort to understand my points at all mate its not worth talking to you. It never was about advantage and I said multiple times, it is about the annoyance and lack of purpose of it

[hazy plover]

Yeah so you are just crying now, we already tell you its only for the magi to have info, "unfun" and "annoying" aren't argument its just crying.

[little wagon]

Magi already has info and Im just explaining what the ability does, its more of an argument than saying I cry because we disagree

[hazy plover]

There is no "point" as i said you are just craving for advantage cause you don't want to play around something.

[loud thunder]

how can we not just say youre craving for an advantage cause you dont want to play without something in response lmao

thats such a non argument

[little wagon]

Okay mate have it your way you're just ignoring everything in favor of being right without adressing any of the points I made because you just arent able to

[loud thunder]

listening encourages unhealthy gameplay regardless of how strong or weak it is

[hazy plover]

Ticketman are random and objectif if do simultaneously just give a general idea that the bunny is on a floor, not what he is doing or anything.

The other info tool are even more easy to counter since one smoke and ticket man are useless, and card aren't even usable in high mmr due to the wiggle issue right now.

[little wagon]

My point is you dont need that much info, its highly annoying for the bunnies and if you feel like you need to abuse Listen to win even with all the tools you already have to locate bunnies, maybe you're just bad at the game

[hazy plover]

Give argument then, as i say "unfun" and "annoying" aren't argument.

[hazy plover]

lol don't talk about skill while you are annoyed to be seen in an 1v5 game.

[little wagon]

What about running, voip, pinging, doing objectives, winding up a teammate, throwing a rocket to an imposter, literally everything bunny does gives you sound cues. Why you only have arguments against ticketmen with the smoke counter which you also have to find 1st?? What about literally everything else? You just ignore that because you know you're not right man

[hazy plover]

• you can ignore it with smoke as well if you want to do an objectif while he is listening.

[little wagon]

It is very much an argument and you're ignoring all the other points and just focusing on what you want

[hazy plover]

Most of what you just said isn't notif and he hear it if he is near you.
Bunny doing thing at 5m of the killer should be heard, its just common sens at this point.

[little wagon]

Im not annoyed to be seen, Im not annoyed by the reveal, how many times I have to explain so you stop ignoring the actual reason, the reason that is unfun IS NOT being seen, it is the options it leaves you with, if you play dead you lose so much time its not a viable strat and you have to do it so often its nuts, if you ignore it then you have to rush which removes stealth from the game, its a force-rush ability thats the issue with it. Also having to hear a loud Shhh! and a hartbeat after that every 1min is very unpleasant and gets old very quick.

[hazy plover]

Like you just want the bunny to be perma stealth, if the magi have info its annoying ?
did you ever realize how pathetic it is to be annoyed by the other side playing the game ?

[little wagon]

Nah you're lying and you know that

[hazy plover]

I am not lying that's what they do in high mmr.

[little wagon]

Most of what I said Magi hears perfectly well, thats why they still found bunnies before Listen just fine

You're lying about sound cues having a 5m radious

[hazy plover]

The only reason we are arguing right now is because you want an ability that only work on new player and low mmr to be nerfed, since we got a top 100 that say the ability is useless and wont stop bunny from doing objectif in high mmr.

[little wagon]

Then whats the point of it? Annoy new players into quitting the game?

[hazy plover]

So don't talk about my skill when we are arguing over you being a bad player.

[little wagon]

Give me 1 good reason the ability is good for the game

[little wagon]

Nah the argument has always been this but you just ignore it man, no point on keeping this conversation if you ignore half of it in your favor and say nonesense

[hazy plover]

Giving info on magi, everything in the game is already difficult on bunny side and need knowlegde check, but once they know how to do thing and comms with their mate the game became too easy for them.

[little wagon]

And Listen does nothing to fix this.

Still not see why its needed

other than abusing new players

[little wagon]

This is the issue right here come up with 1 good counter argument to this other than saying nonesense pls

[hazy plover]

Bro in any game new player need to learn how to play around thing, and some don't want to and call thing "unfun" or "annoying" cause they don't want to learn how to counter it, doesn't it remind you something ?

[little wagon]

Its not about that at all man you keep ignoring my point

why learn to play around something thay will be useless in high mmr because rushing is the strat?

[hazy plover]

I already responde to that, if you want to be stealth you bait it till the end when magi don't see you then play dead in another place.

[little wagon]

Baiting is not stealth tho

Stealth is sneaking around

Not attracting attention

Do you know what stealth means?

[hazy plover]

And if you think this is an hide and seek game you have the wrong point here, after the 2k mmr most of the bunny don't play dead anymore and abuse all the item they got.

[little wagon]

But it is literally a hide and seek game

was* rather

Anyways you're just delusional imo, no point in this, have a nice day

[hazy plover]

Like maybe you don't like the game and its fine, but if all bunny actually play stealth its a disadvantage for them since magi can play around his cooldown more.

[little wagon]

This kind of people seem to enjoy that, but yeah I agree its a useless ability, only use is trying to stall the game and abuse new players

Im just guessing here but I assume Drag has a rough time with high MMR so he needs to abuse noobs with an annoying ability for them just to feel good

[hazy plover]

You both said rushing is unhealthy now ?
i see the argument are still not here.

[hazy plover]

Sadly we can't lose mmr as magi player now so you got no point here.

[little wagon]

Rushing defeats the whole game purpose, its supposed to be a hide and seek game and the game revolves around stealth. It is not a speedrun FPS sorry to break it to ya.

[hazy plover]

I see that you are a bunny spammer that obviously don't know what he is doing so he play stealth to be the last one and did nothing around the game.

[little wagon]

Yeah I bet you'd love to lose some mmr to be paired with noobs then so you can feel good about yourself when abusing listen

[hazy plover]

No its not an hide and seek game, not anymore, the bunny team in high mmr proove my point, rushing is way more efficient on this alpha test.

[little wagon]

Anyways, no point in arguing with you man, nice day

[hazy plover]

You are the one salty about being bad, don't try to project it on me.

[little wagon]

Thats because listen incentivises this playstyle and if you cant see it you're delusional

[hazy plover]

They were playing like that before it was added cause rushing is still more efficient, listen didn't change anything about that.

[little wagon]

Another closed post lol, no point in this, cya

[little wagon]

didnt improve it either, you keep making me right with your statements lmao

[hazy plover]

Like with listening you can see where bunny are rushing in high mmr but they wont play dead since they don't care to be seen.

[little wagon]

It only serves to abuse new players and you think thats fine because they have to get used to an ability they will ignore later on, makes 0 sense man

[little wagon]

Again making my points right lol

[hazy plover]

The ability is useless if bunny are playing good, that's the whole point.

[little wagon]

anyways whatever man you're saying Im right without even realicing it, its baffling

[hazy plover]

If they play bad (like a new player) it got value.

[little wagon]

Yeah the value to abuse new players, gotcha, definitely we agree on that.

[hazy plover]

Definition being delusional while you just say multiple time the ability only work on bad player so why nerf it if its useless against good bunny team ?

Like if its already weak against good player why nerf it ?
You are making no sens here.

Bunny will rush objo even without the listen being in the game so why does it bother you if you aren't the bad player you describe ?

[little wagon]

Not nerf it, remove it, its a chore to play against to new and solo players. Even you are saying it is useless later on. Its only value is breaking stealth and abusing newbs, thats it. Why would I want an ability like that ingame?

Its time for me to stop you just dont wanna see it bye man

[hazy plover]

Lol yeah even better, remove an advantage of the already weak side, good reasoning here.

[little wagon]

big facepalm

[little wagon]

Yeah have fun abusing newbs because you cant compete against good players man you're so right

[hazy plover]

Yeah i already know you got no argument, i am not the one saying 15 time "bye" to come back right after cause he want the last word on the topic of his skill issue.

[little wagon]

Gotta agree on that, you keep baiting me into a response, thats fair, Ill stop now.

[thorny plank]

I have to admit i have no reason, the ability stay well balanced

Needs a little more cooldown but its balanced

[hazy plover]

https://tenor.com/view/the-fountain-hugh-jackman-brightlight-enlightenment-gif-5011749

[thorny plank]

The main problem is still the 5v1

But im still thinking that isnt fun to play againts

[sacred stirrup]

100% Listen a problem. Removing it is the best option. its ruins new player/solo player games and removes the hide and seek vibe this game has had since the first alpha.

As already stated in this thread, against a squad, it promotes bunnies to rush and overwhelm the magi. Which in turn makes playing magi stressful and unfun.

[hazy plover]

Bunny will rush in high mmr regardless of the ability so it wont change anything about that.

[sacred stirrup]

great then you shouldn't have a problem if it's removed

[hazy plover]

Yeah delete some info on an already weak side in high level, weird reasoning once again.

[sacred stirrup]

if bunnies are rushing, the magi knows where they are anyways. I've never had a problem finding active bunny.

If bunnies are going slow and being sneaky, magi has a ton of time to activate ticketmen and secure objectives with imposter bunnies.

Info is not an issue for magi.

[hazy plover]

Bunny can prep objectif around ticketman, and i have never seen a "slow" and "sneaky" bunny in high mmr for the reason you just said, its just not effective.

[sacred stirrup]

I think we agree on the problems. We just dont agree on listen. Listen does NOT affect higher mmr games. It only affects new players and solo players. Making the game drag on and on.

In other words only reason to keep it is to crap on people still learning and solo players.

[hazy plover]

I mean, gate are an issue for new player, so what we delete the gate ?
I don't really take the new player agument since they are still in learning process and pretty much everything in the kit of the magi is a noob stomper.

[loud thunder]

do you think the new player experience should be better or worse

[sacred stirrup]

better. of course. no one will continue to play the game if they aren't enjoying it.

[hazy plover]

Depend if you nerf magi.

If you explain more thing to the new player they will struggle less.

Like we shouldn't ignore the learning process but make it easier.

[loud thunder]

listening has no effect on high level games and makes low level games abysmal

low level games where magi is already at a massive advantage

therefore deleting or removing listening means basically nothing of value is lost

[hazy plover]

Then what's the problem ?
When they learn how to counter the ability its a non-issue, so where is the problem ?

[loud thunder]

the problem is low level games as i just said

[hazy plover]

Low level game are already in the learning process as i said so the magi gain an advantage because of that.

Like magi have a huge advantage in low level regardless of the listening.

[loud thunder]

re:

[hazy plover]

#1429969697138413709 message already respond to that.

[sacred stirrup]

princess, he's not going to get it. he acknowledges there is no point of keeping it beyond hurting new players and solo players, but that's a benefit for him.

[hazy plover]

You wont make the life of a new player easier by nerfing the magi, they will still struggle against him cause they don't know how to play and just make the magi unplayable in high mmr.

[cedar torrent]

I'm still pretty new so I likely can't bring a lot to the conversation, but if the issue is new/beginning players struggling with the ability while the ability itself is nit as great with experienced and coordinated players, would it not be simple enough to just reduce the time it takes for the listen ability?

I know most are gunning for it to be removed, but honestly it is an okay ability, I think it just needs either a shorter use time, or a longer recovery use

The only other option, which likely isn't feasible (or maybe it is, since they could introduce 1v5 when it was originally 1v4), is that it can be an ability that is optional/can be swapped out in higher mmr games (as in the listening ability can only be obtained when you reach a certain mmr bracket to balance the playing field for both sides) in return for maybe a different ability, whatever that may be, that can be used either in higher or lower mmr games as you develop your magician.

Sorry if that doesn't make sense, but it is only a speculation!

[hazy plover]

Man they do the same for dbd and now new player struggle anyway and most of the killer are unplayable against good surv team.

You wont help new player by destroying the magi for high level game.

[loud thunder]

dbd does not give a fuck about new players lol

[hazy plover]

Trust me they did, that's why every killer when they come out got nerf, people don't want to learn how to play against the new killer and demand nerf.

[loud thunder]

listening again does nothing in high level games

[hazy plover]

it give info, its already enough.

[loud thunder]

info you already get from bunnies activating every objective

[hazy plover]

You know they are f*cking you, you don't where each other are.
I don't like the idea of deleting advantage cause people that didn't learn how to play around it struggle.

[normal imp]

^

[steady cradle]

I wouldn't say it's useless. It is a good counter if bunnies are playing things slow and quietly and trying to set things up prior to pulling off a big move. I allows the magi to be more proactive in this case rather than wait around for a noise notification.

I think as long as they limit how long it can be activated for and maybe increase the skill cooldown some so it cant be spammed, itll serve its purpose well without being annoying.

[little wagon]

Exactly. He thinks abusing new players is justified even if it serves no purpose later on. So it brings 0 value and only annoyance to the early game.

[hazy plover]

You are using people that are in the learning process to apply your argument, that's ridiculous honnestly.

Just delete every magi ability then, will be easier for the new player for sure.

[little wagon]

Thats fair and I get where you're coming from but I think they already have enough tools to locate bunnies and the Listen ability comes with so many side-effects and accomplishes so little that they might as well rework it or turn it into something fun both to utilice and to play against

[little wagon]

Because my whole argument is: Its an annoyance to new players and it is useless to experienced players, also it comes with the side effect of promoting rushing even more, so it just doesnt work as intended, the intention was never making it harder for people to like the game at the start, it was always slow down rushing, and it does the opposite of that. I get rushing was already an issue before, and it is now, Listen does not change that

[steady cradle]

But they don't have any tools to locate quiet bunnies who are walking around and spotting them super well, thats where listening comes in. Like I said, I think it definitely needs some tweaks because its current state is definitely not healthy, but I dont think it needs to be scrapped, either, as I do believe it serves an appropriate purpose.

I think there's a happy middle with a couple small tweaks. From there, we reevaluate and see if more is needed.

[normal imp]

Good points from both sides, honestly

[little wagon]

You just refuse to aknowledge punishing new players for no reason (since the ability is useless once you learn that you mostly have to ignore it) is not productive, plus the ability in itself is annoying no matter your MMR. We just disagree in removing Listen but we agree on everything else you just dont take the time to realice it

[hazy plover]

I have already respond to all of that, everything is a threat to new player and listening isn't the biggest one.

[normal imp]

I would honestly keep it because if you notice they're rushing, while you do it, you just stop using it or use it to see where they are. It's fine as is, just a matter of how you use it. Bunnies will eventually learn how magicians use it. Be it experience, or tutorial videos once we release.

[little wagon]

Yeah but it does need tweaking for sure, and then we'd have to see how its utiliced, but I agree complete removal might not be the only option here.

[hazy plover]

Like give it a time limite if you want so magi can't stay in it the whole duration of his charge but the time should be enough to not make the ability useless.

And even with a time limit new player will be reveal.

[little wagon]

Its the abusing it and having to deal with it every 1min that is the real issue, if it had longer cooldown or couldnt be spammed then we'd have a different conversation

[hazy plover]

"Having to deal with it" talking about proving point, deal with an ability of the hunter annoyed you now ?

[little wagon]

Man you're obviously ragebaiting without even trying to read what I said and ignoring most of my points so I wont bother with you anymore, you can have your wrong opinion and keep it, doesnt make you right

[cedar torrent]

This kind of seems like a stale argument, given only parts of what people are saying is being taken out of context-

[little wagon]

Exactly

He just takes 1 point out of the 10 I mentioned, takes it out of context and adds in a personal insult, no arguments whatsoever

[hazy plover]

Man you litteraly said dealing with it is the issue for you wdym ???

[little wagon]

I said many things that explain why

you just gloss over em for your own sake

[sacred stirrup]

To recap. Listen, Severly hurts new players AND solo players. Does not provide any value against squads that ignore it and rush through objectives. Which in turn fixes none of the issues Magi have, and only create issues for new players AND solo players. But some how removing it is somehow unjust and is a major nerf to magi?

[hazy plover]

like we are ok with the fact that its powerfull on new player and useless on high mmr, don't you think the problem here is the knowledge of the bunny and not the ability in itself ?

[little wagon]

Yeah basically

[cedar torrent]

At the end of the day, I think it is still rather clear most people at least want the listen ability to either have a shorter duration OR a longer cooldown, which is fine because the magician still gets his ability at the end of the day, and it doesn't cause stalling in matches for both parties, no matter the higher or lower mmr

[loud thunder]

its core design is unhealthy so making it trigger for less time or have a longer cooldown or any other number tweak doesnt solve the core issue which is just that its badly designed

[hazy plover]

Cause even if bunny ignore it its still some info to help the magi against rushing team.

[cedar torrent]

Which makes sense!

[sacred stirrup]

at this point, you gotta be trolling.

[hazy plover]

lol i said it help the magi, i don't say it got an insane value.

"Bouhou you see he is trolling by arguing different, stop talk to him bouhou."
Sotorrino ?

[little wagon]

Literally promotes rushing but somehow it helps against rushing...

[hazy plover]

it promote nothing since bunny will do it anyway.

[little wagon]

And even more if its the only viable strat thanks to it.

[cedar torrent]

If the ability promotes nothing then there shouldn't be an issue with it being torn out and giving the magician a new ability that is more balanced-

[hazy plover]

"it promote nothing."

[little wagon]

It doesnt stop em from rushing, it incentivises them to

[hazy plover]

Like bunny rush objo cause of the listening that simply not true.

[sacred stirrup]

it does not help against rushing. TBH rushing should be a different thread cuz that is a problem. Obviously, listen has not helped with it.

[little wagon]

It also comes with the problem that is only “effective” at stalling and annoying new players and not experienced ones so if you as Magi get used to utilising Listen as your main strat, then at higher lvl gameplay where everyone ignores it you as a Magi player will feel overwhelmed making the rush problem more of an issue than before

Like every Magi that gets used to it only to then find out the strat is to ignore it will have to re-learn the game

it’s frustrating in both ends

[sacred stirrup]

for the record, any ability that punishes a slower play style promotes rushing. Even if it doesn't directly promote it, listen does punish bunnies who are trying to be sneaky. A team that ignores it and just rushes actually punishes the magi for using listen since the magi is slowing their pace to use it.

[hazy plover]

Stop talking about new player, everything is a problem for people in the learning process, this argument have no sens.

[little wagon]

Well it adds nothing to experienced players and just makes the new players experience worse plus its not fun to deal against it no matter the level, so thats kinda the issue

[loud thunder]

tell us what value it gives against vets then

[hazy plover]

We can say the same for any magi ability honnestly, beside cards that are unusable in high mmr cause of another problem.

[little wagon]

Every other ability is fun to play against and cant be spammed or abused

[sacred stirrup]

we can not say the same for other magi abilities.

[hazy plover]

Info.

[little wagon]

Thats why they are not an issue and listen is

[cedar torrent]

Would it make it easier for newer players if they were placed in a tutorial with a bot Magician first time booting up the game? Because if there is one thing I noticed, the tutorial doesn't exactly teach you the basics of when encountering the magician

[little wagon]

That you already had without it, pretty much

[cedar torrent]

The video tutorial doesn't really teach you magician encounters either-

[sacred stirrup]

An active bunny gives away their location by simply being active. so what info listen provides against a rush squad is info the Magi will already have. (Unless they are using skips, which is something the devs are working hard to stop. ALWAYS REPORT SKIPS)

[loud thunder]

info you only gain by standing still and doing literally nothing btw

[sacred stirrup]

exactly!

[loud thunder]

you would probably be better off just walking to the last sound you heard

[sacred stirrup]

And all this cycles back to, Listen only creates issues for new players and solo players while offering no benefit against squads. New players don't know pathing well enough to rush, and solo players are forced to play slower since the rest of their team is normally playing slower.

And removing slower game play as an affective strat, promotes rush gameplay.

[loud thunder]

they should be adding things that encourage slower gameplay not the other way around 😭

[sacred stirrup]

agreed

[steady cradle]

I think where the problem lies here is what happens when people are using slower, sneakier gameplay? Ie. As a magi, do you just walk around guessing at the dummy bunnies until you find one? It just gets a little boring until someone actually activates something with noise, leaving the magi feeling like they have zero say in the pacing of the game.

Not saying listening doesnt need a good tweaking, but I believe the purpose it serves is that it helps the magi be able to participate in the pacing of the game a little more so they can be a bit proactive rather than purely reactive. From there, more can be done to encourage slower play overall.

[loud thunder]

i agree with making magi more proactive but listening still lends all of the control to bunnies

you use listening and you have to wait to see what the bunnies do and then purely react to that

[hazy plover]

I think that's the main reason why listening as been added.

[loud thunder]

if bunnies coordinate and all play dead at the same time then youre in the exact same position as without listening (but everyone is in a much more boring game), the issue at lower levels comes in when bunnies dont all choose the same play and usually less aware players get basically pseudo tunnelled

magi not finding bunnies at low levels is a product of new bunny being so overwhelming and difficult to learn

smoothing the learning curve inherently makes low level games faster paced and therefore more activity for magi

[hazy plover]

If the ticket master not being fully rng can help at the tweaking of the listening it can be good.
My god just add a game where both ticket man where in the useless hall.

[sacred stirrup]

yeah the RNG is another major issue. For both sides of the fence

[torn mist]

To find sneaky bunnys I double back while stutter stepping invisible. While cutting them off at predictable routes they may take. Aswell as entering and exiting the booth out of range of suspected bunnys. In order to make them think I teleported.

[sacred stirrup]

you might like the ideas I had in a post I made called more balance ideas.

[torn mist]

lol yeah, I was just giving a tip my bad.

[sacred stirrup]

no no, I was referring to one of the changes Id like to see. which is for the lockers to not give away when a magi has teleported. So the magi walks into the locker, when they teleport the locker they teleport from bursts open. removing this would allow for fake teleports.

[hazy plover]

Oh i didn't know that, that's good info.

[steady cradle]

Yeah, I toy around with both (although Im not sure how I feel about invisible stutter step since it literally has no counter, especially with the current slow charge drain on invis) and dont have a ton of issues, I just feel that listening is another tool in that toolbox. Dont get me wrong, though, listening needs some tweaks to make it make more sense. Im just not in the "scrap it entirely" camp.

[hazy plover]

Didn't the bunny hear when the magi do his arm noise when he is invis ?

[sacred stirrup]

arm noise?

[hazy plover]

Yeah the magi do a remote noise after some ability i think, idk how to describe it.

[loud thunder]

i posted a rework proposal if you want to have a look #1427397189965189140 message

[hazy plover]

Or its just a noise effect and i am confused.

[sacred stirrup]

Bunnies can hear the foot steps. The stutter step is kind of sort of an exploit that removes the walking noise. The sacrifice is slower movement. Personally, I don't mind it, but I find the more game healthy way to deal with sneaky bunnies is to be a sneaky magi.

[loud thunder]

they should make stutter stepping an actual mechanic if they want to keep it in the game

[hazy plover]

Yeah right now stutter stepping is needed to counter some bunny that play dead on objo, but yeah it look a bit too much like an exploit.

[loud thunder]

as it is its an exploit and massively lacking accessibility

[sacred stirrup]

agreed. make so you hold shift or something to slow your walk to make it silent. Would make for some great jumpscares too.

[loud thunder]

thats a part of the rework i just posted for listening

[hazy plover]

There should be slow walk option for the magi yeah.

(Even without invis.)

[steady cradle]

Love it! Definitely would be a better implementation. Thanks for the share!

[steady cradle]

Never even thought about the accessibility aspect. I understand "tech"s being somewhat challenging sometimes, but Im totally with you on stutter stepping being more of an exploit than tech. It's way too easy for anyone who can press W consistently and just gates it off from people who may not have the ability to do so for one reason or another that is likely not skill-related.

[loud thunder]

basically anyone with motor disabilities

[sacred stirrup]

stutter stepping also works for bunnies. Ive used it a lot to vanish from magi.

[hazy plover]

Why stutter stepping as bunny ?
Aren't you already quiet when walking ?

[sacred stirrup]

you are aren't silent. Some very perceptive magi, like Cappy and her bat ears, will still pick up on those sounds.

[torn mist]

I scare people alot doing that.

[sacred stirrup]

.> I am aware... Jerk

[torn mist]

lol

[sacred stirrup]

Think it was you in one of the clips. I tied off a rope and turned to have a face full of magi crotch.

[torn mist]

Lol I gotta look for it.

[vernal vessel]

Its clearly in this post who wants to keep their main OP #Magician

[hazy plover]

[sacred stirrup]

tbf Listen in of itself is not OP. Its annoying, kills gameplay rythme, and offers nothing against squads at higher MMR. My issue with it is how much it hurts low to mid MMR and solo games.

[loud thunder]

its not op but it is unhealthy

[vernal vessel]

Yep if this game is meant for only pro DBD players looping the killer that would be sad and take the stealth out of this game completely

[little wagon]

DBD player who mains killer being toxic who would have guessed

https://tenor.com/view/reactions-gif-12900002073893207744

I get it tho, being a main killer in a game like DBD and being unskilled must suck, survivors laughing at you every match, probably gets PTSD from that when he hears killer getting de-buffed here “not again!”

[sacred stirrup]

I feel like you are seeing toxic behavior where there is none...

[hazy plover]

He is the toxic behaviour.

[sacred stirrup]

no just, he just misread the situation.

[torn mist]

Yeah I'm pretty sure Hema isn't talking about Sotorrino. Maybe DragNoa but not Sottorino for sure.

[outer ferry]

It's a gear now check the #🧩│dev-updates

[winged sphinx]

… they changed it to a gear?
I’m… confused

As to why that was the solution

But hey

[hazy plover]

It isn't a solution, its just a way to put the problem under the carpet for a while.

[winged sphinx]

Unless everyone just switches to that active gear because it’s probably the best option

Since the other two that I can think of are
Thing you can do without the active gear
And
Thing that doesn’t have any tangible effects except in one specific circumstance

[hazy plover]

honnestly i think the speech is better in high mmr.

Maybe the listening if rushing strategy become less used.

[winged sphinx]

I like listening to make a bunny drop a gear

Souprice dem

[scenic wave]

current iteration of listen is another noobtrap, noobs will learn to play dead until it's over, and not learn to ignore it depending on wether they are in any danger, or doing an important piece of progression.
It's also just very booring to face magis that do this, and it's especially lame as it's too strong when there are fewer bunnies alive.

the fix is very simple, 2-5x the cost, and have the first 5-10 sec be free of charge.

or just end it after 20 sec. options are available.

[outer ferry]

With gear I mean ability btw

#🧩│dev-updates message

[winged sphinx]

I am aware of what you mean, I meant making a bunny have to either be seen or drop one of the large door gears

[outer ferry]

I'm closing it soon as it will be a gear ability now and not an active abillity anymore. They will probably rework this👀

[winged sphinx]

… oh, wait, no I am confused

…. Nevermind I got it

[mortal spear]

I only have 3 games as magician and havent played after it was moved to a gear. But immediately this listening ability felt utterly useless.

All it made me do was tunnel out the new bunnies that didn't know to play dead, whereas the good bunnies played dead until I stopped. Personally I have no interest in standing still doing nothing for multiple minutes just to waste their time.

And I imagine at high MMR bunnies don't even care a out this ability as they probably want to be chased so they can save each other with rockets and waste a lot of magicians time.

As I'm new I could be missing something but this is my first impressions of it.

I suppose the best use for it is to just stand still until a bunny gets bored and decides to move

Which is bad gameplay for both sides