Remove "great" zones from skill checks

[spiral saddle]

You are the only one talking about that so i dont think it matter.

[stone wren]

ok ok

[charred aspen]

Sorry, let me specify. I was responding to this comment.

[spiral saddle]

I just hope you dont flood the start of the post with this sort of argument.

[royal gazelle]

I think this thread is going on about how cards needs changed at this point, maybe make another thread and contuine it there lmao

[charred aspen]

Which implied that the risk/reward system is specifically what kills the card mechanic.

[lavish geode]

my opinion: it should stay but the time in cages is too long

[stone wren]

sorry sorry yea with the card system not being worth it atm the risk reward you will never card so as it stands now because of how its set up you will never card a person

[tired talon]

this one is just unhealthy lmao

[stone wren]

its not worth over a throw or a cage

[tired talon]

like yeah sure its good, it should not stay as is

[modern knot]

i have a rework post for cards #1425606496397557831 message

[charred aspen]

I don't think it would ever be worth carding someone if you knew you wouldn't be able to throw them.

[modern knot]

but regardless of how cards are changed or not changed the wiggle system is bad because you cant actually calculate risk ever

[spiral saddle]

Omg another post.

[modern knot]

its so insanely rooted in unmeasurable rng

[charred aspen]

The whole point is that you risk getting both the card and the throw, and are punished if you incorrectly measure the wiggle time.

[stone wren]

i mean im fine with now knowning but they payoff isnt worth it

the payoff has to be worth it

[charred aspen]

Sure, let's increase the payoff if we have to.

But I would not reduce the risk.

[tired talon]

yeah I think we can all agree regardless of our stance on cards, wiggle should be normalized more

less reward for hitting greats, faster when hitting goods

[stone wren]

yea

[spiral saddle]

Lol just make it so he cant even throw you if you hit only perfect skillcheck at this point man.

[modern knot]

its not just good/greats but also where wiggles get placed, you can hit 2 in a row or 2 in 3 seconds

[spiral saddle]

Shake or throw or the bunny go away.
Is this enough risk/reward for you guys ?

[modern knot]

they both need to be changed

[charred aspen]

The devs will ultimately decide how much the magician should get to do on a grab.

Just remember what I said; the more punishing getting grabbed is, the more tools there must be to prevent getting grabbed at all in order to balance the game, with all else the same.

So they may decide Magicians get to shake and shake and card and nod and do the limbo and have a coffee and throw a bunny down 3 floors at the end of the day.

But if that happens, and a week later we get posts complaining "I can't grab any bunnies they have so many fireworks/marbles/unicycles to avoid getting grabbed."

Don't say I didn't warn you!

[royal gazelle]

Just make it to where you destroy the second key in the bunny inventory slot, or any items taking up the slot not letting you put card in and you good, then you trade an extra key for being able to put a card in and the bunny still loses the key

[spiral saddle]

Hope they do so the hunter can do only one action before the bunny wiggle of.

[royal gazelle]

Bang bam boom problem solved

[modern knot]

the mechanic to avoid being grabbed is not being found in the first place

[royal gazelle]

Thank you have a good day

[spiral saddle]

Imagine the decision making you would need to do here.

[formal junco]

Not all of them, I touched on those as well 😛

Like here haha

One thing I mentioned is that crits on strikers should NOT be twice as effective, and if you want a mechanic that makes it faster for crits on strikers it should have a faster animation not a further progress.

Because you can EASILY balance on that. 10% faster animation on a crit, not going enough to be good? Move it to 15%! Doing too much? Lower it to 5%

You can't make crits do more or less currently, because at MOST you would REQUIRE three crits for an effect to move it to 3 hits on crits. Otherwise it still takes 4.

[modern knot]

this is a much better idea

they can do the same for kicking off an imp

[dire arch]

there's a lot of discussion here that I'm sure I missed, but I'd say that the clip here isn't a great example of anything being an issue. It takes 10 seconds for that bunny to escape (starting when he was already taking out the key), which is quite a long time. He wasted a lot of time taking arbitrary steps around and towards the edge when he didn't have to at all. Could have easily shook as he took a couple steps forward, carded, then chucked to his left with time to spare; but for some reason he wanted to walk right up to the edge and wasted a ton of time even though he couldve easily thrown the bunny over any part of that balcony ledge.

Also, Tru3 is notorious for being very "hunter" centric. No offense intended and you may have your opinions on him, but I don't see anyone who's looking for a fair setup to take advice from his content.

[tiny briar]

I think removing great zones altogether is a bad idea, It's a staple of the asymmetrical horror genre at this point.

If I could do anything, I would allow magician to attach a card to a bunny and force out their items to make room if there's no empty space.

Realistically, devs could make wiggle greats give slightly less, but make them slightly bigger.

[modern knot]

its a boring staple

[tired talon]

"staple" and its literally like 1 game

[modern knot]

this game is innovative in the rest of its mechanics, it can be innovative in the goofy QTE minigame you get when doing things

or at least implement them in a less unfair way

[tiny briar]

1 game that's like, 80% of the market.

Also VHS (RIP)

[rugged jackal]

Skill checks are a staple. Great skill checks are for progression. Is it a staple in dbd to have a great skill check for a wiggle timer? Obviously not for a good reason. Balance.

[sharp locust]

wiggle skill checks should be playing ddr with your wasd keys

this is half a joke

[charred aspen]

Is this a Skull Merchant reference or an Outcome Memories reference?

[sharp locust]

both? both. both is good!

i should play more OM tbh, haven't in a while

[dire arch]

I feel like a lot of the community bases their opinions of this game around DBD and how it functions. While it's understandable, as that's all much of us know, I don't think it's a great example of a balanced game and hasn't been for a very long time.

It's also worth noting that in this case especially, wiggle skill checks between CH and DBD are apples and oranges. Wiggle skill checks in DBD are an exercise in futility to all but prevent the killer from carrying you around as a backpack the entire game or taking people to basement every time (which has largely lost its appeal with scourge hooks), with getting hooked being all but guaranteed regardless of hitting every great with perfect timing. Wiggle checks in CH actually mean something and are supposed to ensure that the hunter has to make a choice between certain actions or risk the bunny getting away without injury.

Great wiggle checks can make a huge difference and change things a ton in CH (while they're meaningless in DBD), hence people looking to achieve a better level of consistency between different player skill levels. Do I personally think removing them is the solution? No, but I do think they need to be looked at so their impact is more consistent. You may very well agree with that, but I just wanted to move the conversation away from "well DBD.." because a lot of conversations tend that way when many of us are playing this game in an attempt to find an enjoyable asym horror game, which DBD is not (opinions may vary lol).

Modeling this game too closely after DBD will not only suck for everyone involved; but will effectively guarantee failure because why would anyone care to play less popular, reskinned DBD? Moral of this story: let's appreciate this games uniqueness and while we can take some good aspects of other games with a grain of salt, we should avoid allowing it to mold this game.

[rugged jackal]

So you think its ok a bunny can escape the magicians grip within 5 seconds, and then gain panic for 10 seconds, while not losing a gear state, after wasting the magicians time for 40+ seconds in a chase. Just want to be clear.

[spiral saddle]

🤭

[rugged jackal]

We base opinions on balance. That isn't. DbD is pointed at as an example of what balance is.

• No unlimited hook states
• 16 seconds of wiggle time
• Considerably smaller map with a fraction of average chase time (20-30 seconds vs Carnival Hunts 40-60 seconds)

Extremely disingenuous to dismiss the comparison. Modeling the game the polar opposite of Dbd will guarantee failure just for the sake of trying to be different.

Your pseudo-intellectual defense of mediocrity. Hillarious.

That's a lazy shield against accountability and balance

To be clear, removing the "great" skill checks establishes a much clearer baseline of balance, every single bunny player will downvote because "the super fair 5 second break outs" might be a high point for them, thats the ultimate frustration to the magician player for simply following the rules and playing the game. THATS what kills a game.

People aren't playing this game for stupid unfair skill check wiggle mechanics.

[spiral saddle]

That much fact here, i think the devs should listen to this beautiful arguments. 🙌

[bronze bloom]

Bunny mains really do always keep begging to be powerful under the guise of helplessness, instead of aiming for a fair game. At some point it's gonna start to hurt queues when everyone stops playing magician

[dire arch]

Nope, never said that nor eluded to such. Unsure where the misunderstanding was, but my entire point was to balance the skillchecks to be more consistent for magi to be able to rely on a somewhat consistent wiggle time and so bunnies cant vary from 5 seconds up to 15. Ie. Close the gap down and meet it somewhere in the middle with maybe a couple seconds variation for some clutch plays.

Hopefully that clears things up a bit. Ill read the other stuff, but Im guessing it's based on the same misunderstanding.

[rugged jackal]

Your misunderstanding is removing "great" skill checks enables consistency. No assumptions here.

[dire arch]

These types of unneeded add-ons are what the devs are trying to stay away from. Lets try to give each other the benefit of the doubt rather than trying to provoke each other, please.

[spiral saddle]

"Some clutch play" if related to skillcheck will be normalized around high mmr cause hitting skillcheck isn't that difficult once again.

[spiral saddle]

There is no provokation, just 2 day in this post to have a somewhat balanced thing that we all agree on.

[dire arch]

There were absolutely assumptions. Please reread what I said. I said I dont think they should be removed and immediately suggested another solution that still allows for greater consistency while also allowing for a small bit of skill expression so wiggle checks dont become some excerise in futulity, which is entirely against what the game is trying to achieve with the mechanic.

[rugged jackal]

if you took the time to read the suggestion of the OP and various cases for removal of it, is normalization. You incorrectly assume we want to remove ALL critical skill checks (the yellow bar) No. Keep those highs for kicking an imposter off or for striker or escaping a cage.

By normalizing wiggle skill checks to be only the green bar and make the escape time CONSISTENT, that establishes the baseline we want.

[rugged jackal]

There is no middle ground. Yellow "great" skill checks adds an unfair element and severely cuts down the escape time.

[dire arch]

Chuckling at someone is absolutely provocation. And you should reread the thread if you think "all" is what is shown here.

[spiral saddle]

With what were say on this post i think i got the right to laugh a bit.

[rugged jackal]

The bunny should require X amount of Green skill checks. Always. Consistently. Great skill checks punishes new players and rewards "skilled" players / people that macro

[dire arch]

You do you, man. Just understand that you are provoking people with such behavior, and this is stuff that we'd all do better staying away from. Just want us to all be able to discuss things without talking down to eachother, thats all.

[pine oar]

I just disagree that it's unfair. It's risk vs. reward. If you try to hit those greater skill checks and miss, you'll genuinely red zone it instead. I keep hearing about how people consistently hit these skill checks in high MMR gameplay, but from streams I've watched and even in higher (#100-#50 MMR gameplay) people aren't hitting it all of the time. Does it happen? Sure, I am not saying that it doesn't. But the argument I keep seeing surfaced is that it consistently is hit and therefore isn't fair. And it's just not a fair argument to make when your position is worst case scenario - which isn't the common scenario.

[rugged jackal]

The average breakout timer for a new player is 10+ seconds. The average breakout timer for experienced players is 5-6. This disparity is caused solely by the lazy "Great" skill checks. Removal of it, closes the skill gap needed, doesn't remove it.

[spiral saddle]

Lol the "risk and reward" argument while hitting skillcheck isn't a risk at all, my god.

[pine oar]

If you're actively attempting to hit a greater and miss it, you hit red. Thats the risk?

If you're going for the comfy fat green zone, you don't get a chance at the reward of a greater and the risk is smaller.

[rugged jackal]

Why have a mechanic that punishes newer players.

[pine oar]

Does that help?

[rugged jackal]

No.

You are punishing new players for stupid reasons

[pine oar]

I was speaking to DragNoa.

[spiral saddle]

The risk is to be punish for your mistake over getting away of a grasp in 5sec.

[dire arch]

Alrighty, Ill respond to you here in a moment Poker, but I have a feeling this thread will be locked very soon with the type of aggressive tones being taken. 😕

[rugged jackal]

This topic has been discussed to death. For literally over a year

[spiral saddle]

There is no "risk" in staying in the grasp, like no magi will think you fail every skillcheck at high mmr anyway, cause taking this risk for him is a big punishement.

[spiral saddle]

I am losing my mind over a post lol, what if i have discovered this game sooner.

[rugged jackal]

The fact is,

• it widens the skill gap in a game that already has a skill gap wide enough
• it feels extremely unfair for a roll of the dice if the magician gets punished or not. (imagine if the magician with a series of great skill checks took an additional gear away, sounds absurd right)
• It enables for abuse cases of players "skillfully" using AHK macros to make themselves practically unkillable

[dire arch]

Im not incorrectly assuming anything. I read the post, understand it clearly, and stated my case very clearly with an alternative solution that obtains a greater level of consistency with the allowance of some level of skill expression. From there, if it's still an issue, it can be discussed and changed again.

The change you're suggesting basically means that rather than any skillchecks, there should just be a timer of 8 seconds that counts down for escape since green skill checks are braindead easy to hit and if thats all thats available, theres no reason to even have it. Im suggesting a viable middleground to start with and then we can go from there.

[rugged jackal]

Theres your incorrect assumption. I am saying remove Great Skill checks, keep the green ones, make the green ones slightly better to balance and streamline wiggle time.

those can still be missed

[dire arch]

I wish there was a cuddlebun emoji so I could give you some sanity back 😆

[spiral saddle]

There shouldn't be "skill expression" in the wiggle interaction, cause its not "skill" to hit QTE, it just create inconsistency for the magi.

[rugged jackal]

And truth be told, having a timer that counts down 8 seconds WOULD be more balanced. You don't need skill expression in every aspect of this game when its filled with it

[dire arch]

Can you please tell me what the incorrect assumption is? What youre saying is literally exactly what I said you said. The only disagreement here (rather than misunderstanding or incorrect assumptions) is that you think that anyone is missing a green skillcheck.

[rugged jackal]

The fact new players still do invalidates this

which further highlights the disparity

[dire arch]

There is a slight skill expression in having good timing in a tense situation, just like magi hitting the marble skillcheck to win a chase quicker, but we can disagree there.

[spiral saddle]

Wiggle time should be clear and easy to understand time so magi should know how much action he is allowed to do before the bunny get away without consequence.
That's basic game design, we shouldn't argue around that.

[rugged jackal]

Ultimately it doesn't matter. The devs have stated in the past they like this mechanic and it will never change thus further punishing new players

pointless to argue it

[spiral saddle]

Seriously ?

[rugged jackal]

Yes.

[spiral saddle]

That's pure bullshit from them.

[dire arch]

Im unsure what new players youre talking about, but from what Ive seen, people are missing yellow skillchecks, not green ones. Im all for minimizing the skill disparity, I believe we totally agree there. Im just looking to take a single step in that direction rather than leap. From there, we can evaluate and if steps need to continue, we continue towards removal or even a timer.

[spiral saddle]

i can already see the macro coming for getting away in 3sec.

that's ridiculous.

[rugged jackal]

luckily (or not) there IS a minimal time of 5 seconds

[dire arch]

I dont argue with that at all, thats what all of my posts have been saying; we're entirely in agreement there. I think we just disagree with the steps we should take to achieve that. Im suggesting a single step, as I just mentioned to Poker.

[spiral saddle]

Wow cool, we can loot and tos.

[rugged jackal]

watch new players streaming this game. You will shocked at the level of play.

[rugged jackal]

Yep.

[spiral saddle]

Very cool to ignore the card mechanic on the firts hunter of the game.

I am starting to be disappointed by those devs.

[rugged jackal]

essentially yes. The cards are a noob trap

If a bunny has a key in their back, its not possible to pull the key, shake, card, and throw within 5 seconds

[dire arch]

Ive watched a decent few, but Ill have to keep checking it out to see if I can find what youre saying. The only thing I can imagine is them missing things due to how the skillcheck randomly spawns around. But even that can create a disparity if multiple seconds with lucky spawns and quick hits, so thats a whole nother issue, haha.

[rugged briar]

can you explain the timing of the key in back and why it makes it harder? if you shake when they dont have a key in the back, they still dont drop their items right, so whats the difference

[rugged jackal]

It's an additional animation required. You cant shake a bunny with a key in their back. You need to pull the key first

[spiral saddle]

Even if he didn't 5sec to loot, card + tos is very small if you have to move a bit to throw him on lower floor.

[rugged briar]

but to get a key from the inventory, you also need to shake for it, then shake for items, then card and then throw, which also makes it impossible

[rugged jackal]

Key from inventory is the shake. You dont shake for items after that.

[dire arch]

Im unsure if there can really be a macro as much as a proper cheat that would see your screen and hit the key at the perfect time. But maybe thats what you mean by macro. When I hear "macro", I go to "click mouse every 2 seconds" (ie. Its programmed, not reactive to your screen), which wouldnt work for skillchecks since they spawn in a random spot each time.

What I think youre referring to as macro would be an actual cheat and bannable offense, in my mind.

[rugged jackal]

When a magician shakes a bunny, you only pull from the 4 squares (or more if you have the gears)

pretty much anything in a zone in the bunnies inventory not "magician designated" can't be shaken free

[spiral saddle]

Would be the same, there was a cheat for dead hard when it was broken on dbd too, only for comparison.

[rugged briar]

i swear ive had to double shake after pulling a key from inventory to place a card, or maybe im tripping

[dire arch]

Ah yeah, so a proper cheat.

[spiral saddle]

Imagine you need double collector in a build to be able to pull a card on a bunny, that's ridiculous.

[rugged jackal]

Point is, 5 seconds isn't long enough to perform the actions needed to utilize the cards. And because you need to operate under the assumption a bunny will hit every great skill check, it forces you to Shake and throw or get punished

[dire arch]

Ive found that sometimes, I cant always toss bunnies down floors. Sometimes I just chuck em to an awkward spot and move to a more important objective then come back next time and look to cage to make up for it. Thats what my impression of the intention was from the devs, but maybe Im misconstruing that.

[rugged jackal]

https://discord.com/channels/1040649518212980797/1316893993727950962 just submit it as a bug. if its potentially extremely abuse worthy...submit it via the Support https://discord.com/channels/1040649518212980797/1296630823923089519

[spiral saddle]

Yeah that's where its stupid, magi can't even know and good magi will just shake and throw due to being scared of being punish for nothing.

[rugged jackal]

thats realistically why high MMR its very risky to use cards

image because of the unfair wiggle time RNG of great skill checks, it deletes one of your core abilities

[dire arch]

Curious, what do yall think about the skillcheck for marbles? I feel like it's a somewhat similar equivalent where a random lil skillcheck can entirely nullify an item, making it effectively a waste of inventory space.

Dont mean to pull the topic away, but it keeps coming to mind.

[rugged jackal]

Let magician have a great skill check that when i throw a bunny they don't gain panic.

[spiral saddle]

Yeah that's mainly why i complain about that.

[dire arch]

Panic is anti-tunnel. I feel like thats a bit of an extreme comparison.

[rugged jackal]

One saves you 3 seconds stun, the other saves you a gear (health state) and gives you 10 seconds of immunity

[spiral saddle]

for the marbles it will be too strong to delete the skillcheck, since its not in the power of the magi to dodge the marble some time.

Or maybe reduce the stun and delete the skillcheck.

It could be fine.

[rugged jackal]

it was said obviously sarcastically but that is a comparison of the impact of breaking out of a grab

[dire arch]

It almost always is within the magis ability to walk around it or use hat to grab it, although the hat takes a lil longer.

[spiral saddle]

Yeah so he is stun in another way since hat grab basically stun him.

[dire arch]

So is it sarcasm or a proper comparison of the impact? It cant be both.

[spiral saddle]

Like you can put it in any way, if there is no skillcheck on marbles the stun is unavoidable.

[rugged jackal]

It can be both when both are absurd, however one is currently being defended

[dire arch]

For sure. Id be curious for a shorter but more consistent stun. I find it's kinda a crapshoot as a bunny and I never really have issues hitting it as magi.

[spiral saddle]

Yeah marbles aren't that good in hight mmr.

Just use firework, stronger and more consistent.

[dire arch]

Unless you walk around it, which can be done quite often outside of doorways and some narrow paths. Just thinking of consistency n all.

[rugged jackal]

Marbles are great in high mmr...they are used to run up and force a drop of a grabbed bunny

its literally a free escape

[dire arch]

Yeah, I think thats the trick. Just like wiggle skill checks, theres a disparity between skill levels that makes an entire item become entirely useless.

[spiral saddle]

if the bunny aren't stupid they put it in unavoidable path.

[rugged jackal]

if magician grabs a bunny and i run up and drop marbles at his feet, it doesnt matter if he hits the skill check or not, he is still dropping the bunny

thats how marbles are actually used

[dire arch]

I have done that before, that part is useful, but I just feel like the chase use of the item is gone by high MMR.

[spiral saddle]

Yeah btw getting panic if you got save is actually a total bullshit, can we all agree on that ?

Like magi already got punish, the panic isn't needed here.

[rugged jackal]

Do you think breaking out of a wiggle should grant panic?

not like they lost a health state

[spiral saddle]

No.

[dire arch]

We're just discussing things. Id wager that sometimes a bunny doesnt have the option to always use it in an ideal scenario and sometimes needs to bank on a little confusion or going around a corner to pull it off.

[spiral saddle]

You should get panic only when you lose an health state.

[rugged jackal]

Agreed. Although cannon is a questionable decision

different conversation though of abuse cases of panic

[spiral saddle]

That too, but canon aren't the biggest problem here.

[rugged jackal]

All of these issues compound, and the wiggle great skill checks just adds fuel to the fire

[dire arch]

Yeah, a full panic state doesnt make much sense. I get the idea that maybe there should be a couple so they can make a little distance, although Id say a stun can do the same instead so its more consistent for everyone and magi has the option of closing that chase down if needed.

[rugged jackal]

if bunnys didnt gain panic after escaping wiggle, then sure. Keep the stupid great zones

the best is when a bunny breaks out of a wiggle, then proceeds to hit the strongman right in front of you when they have panic, allowing for a free tap.

[spiral saddle]

Magi is already stun if the bunny got saved.

[rugged jackal]

the magician literally unable to stop bunnys doing objectives when they have panic feels so fair

/s

[dire arch]

I think the idea if the cannon is youre trading a health state for a "safe" way up that also requires 2 bunnies and is super obvious. Otherwise, it can just be camped like a zipline, making it just a funny looking zipline thats quicker to do.

[rugged jackal]

Do you think its fair a bunny can be shot up via cannon, drop a rope while in panic state, and jump back down, as they then use a can of oil to negate the "risk"

all while the magician cant grab them

[dire arch]

Im referring to wiggle out, which has a short(?) stun, but nothing significant thatd stop the magi from almost insta grabbing right after.

[spiral saddle]

"insta grabbing" ?

With what the hat ?

[normal wolf]

1200 messages later and its still going on

[tired talon]

least controversial samswize post

[spiral saddle]

Bro this post is actually so frustrating to talk about.

[dire arch]

Thats a rough situation, but takes a decent bit of coordination on the bunny's part and can be thwarted by magi, endangering two bunnies at once. That said, they could probably tweak the cannon to give a little more heads up so magi can have an easier time at making it there to prevent such things.

[normal wolf]

why dont we make everyone happy keep great skills checks but nerf the progress bonus a bit but make them a bit easier to hit keeps the high skill celling while also raising the admittedly stupid minimum time on some actions

[rugged jackal]

It's a typical situation actually. That is literally the meta play.

[dire arch]

No, just taking two steps forward since theyre faster than the unpanicked bunny and grabbing em again.

[dire arch]

Makes sense on more coordinated teams, which is always the trick with these types of games. Im all for looking at cannon wind up time to make it easier to thwart. But at a point, it just becomes another zipline if it's changed too much.

[spiral saddle]

Yes, that's what should happen.

Sadly poker say they want to keep the stupid wiggle time.

[dire arch]

This is effectively exactly what I suggested, so Im confused on the sudden agreement from DragNoa.

I didnt even add anything about making the great checks easier, as I think that just opens the issue up more.

[rugged jackal]

Like, i dont disagree with having great skill checks on strongman and breaking out of a cage. It's the wiggle time i have an issue with, but devs feel its "fair" so its not going away.

[brittle socket]

I agree with the wiggle timer to have no greats. the other things can keep them

one of the bigger things I noticed recently is how inconsistent some skill checks are

some bounce between left and right while others rotate one direction only

both versions however look 100% the same

[modern knot]

the reason this game is compared to dbd is because its obviously borrowing a lot of ideas from dbd and skill checks are one of them, it makes no sense to say you shouldnt be comparing features in 2 games that are practically identical in function

dbd isnt the most balanced game but it still does some things right and one of those things is the wiggle timer being 100% consistent and measurable for both sides

QTEs are a meme for a reason and imo in this type of game your success or failure should come from strategic or mechanical decisions, not whether you can watch keys jingle effectively

if you get caught by the killer then you made a bad decision and you shouldnt be able to rob the killer of their own decisions because you hit a QTE

in another example its ridiculous you could start a striker with the killer up your ass (hyperbole) and get away with it because you hit 1 or 2 greats

[dire arch]

I understand this game takes a lot of inspiration from DBD, but using DBD as a fallback for everything will turn this game into a clone that will fail. I did say we should take some good things with a grain of salt, so we agree on that.

[modern knot]

i dont think the game should copy everything from dbd

[dire arch]

The part where it's more consistent, sure, which is exactly what Ive been discussing doing. But if youre going to say DBD wiggling would be well applied here, then Id say I dont agree. Wiggling in DBD is essentially meaningless and literally may as well not be done outside of getting some survival points because it's all but guaranteed that the killer can bring you wherever they need 99% of the time unless youre comp cornerning constantly. Wiggling in CH does take inspiration, but is intended to be a very different mechanic in that it makes the hunter make a choice, requiring them to strategize on what they want to do rather than just "do all the things" as it's being proposed above. I suggested a fair middle that would achieve this and was repeatedly misintepretted and borderline insulted for doing so.

[dire arch]

Then we agree there; that's exactly what my post was trying to say.

[modern knot]

i think we already talked about this in a different or earlier in this thread so we probably already know what the other thinks about wiggling in general which is basically in agreement

[dire arch]

See, now thats where we disagree and I think thats where the issue lies in a lot of this. People think hitting one or two greats is a make or break when only hitting all 5 greats (or 4? I believe it's 5) is an actual issue, which happens much less often than people think. Ive hit 3 greats in quick succession + multiple greens and the magi still had time to shake and walk over to a nearby Le Box to cage me. Was it INCREDIBLY close to me escaping? Yes, but the magi still had the time to shake me and walk over to a nearby Le Box, which are practically everywhere on the map nowadays, especially when it comes to objectives like strikers.

Will they be able to shake, card, and cage? Absolutely not, but thats how it's intended. It's not "youre robbing magi of choice", it's "the mechanic is intended to ensure magi has to take a choice, sometimes taking a risk if they want to do a stronger play".

All that said, I think the range is way too extreme in its current state and should be dialed in to be more consistent with a very small maybe 1-2 second variation first, then we evaluate if it's an issue there.

Like you said, Im quite sure we agree. I just dont think fully removing great skillchecks and turning into what is effectively a timer is the immediate solution. Just like in the other thread, I dont think full removal of magi listen is a good solution.

[modern knot]

imo the only thing the decision should really come down to is whether you throw or cage, carding is likely specific to magi and we dont know if sisters will have anything you can do to bunnies while grabbed like cards

cards would have to consistently somehow be stronger than -1 gear to be worth the risk of not getting -1 gear which would probably just make them unbalanced in the opposite direction

adding an incalculable risk to using 1/4 of your kit is just anti gameplay more than anything

[dire arch]

I havent personally tested the timing on key in back, shake, card against a 5 second timer; so I cant say whether or not it prevents it for sure. That said, based on a video posted above with an example of the issue and some of the hyperbole going on here with 3 great skillchecks being an super fast escape when it's closer to 8 or so seconds (if you hit all green after), which would give ample time for key in back, card, throw; I feel like we may be missing something. Ie. When we say "key (assuming key is in the back, which is a big part of this issue due to the extended animation), shake, card, throw", does that also include moving into a good position to throw down 3 floors? Or does this include sometimes just chucking them down one floor because the angle is awkward or chucking them on the same floor, even? Or does it include "well maybe I cant card this time because I have a poor throwing position, but due to how Le Box's are specificially placed to counter this, I should have a nearby box". Because I may have a slightly different experience that others, but these are the exact decisions I go through making when I pick up a bunny.

None of this is to say that we dont need more consistency, but that we'll want to be careful when we judge where that consistency should be because I dont think the baseline in this thread is accurate.

Also, cards in general are meh (which I saw you had some good suggestions there in another thread), so making them more worth the risk would also help work towards a solution here, albeit not a 100% solution since the wiggle timing still needs to be more consistent.

[modern knot]

idk about anyone else here but a "good" throw or cage is always secondary to just the ability to remove a gear after you grab someone

forfeiting cages or good throws for an alternative advantage later is fine, but forfeiting a gear is the reason the risk isnt worth it

[dire arch]

Then we're in total agreement! Like I said, I havent personally tested the 5 second stuff with key in back, shake, card; so Ill admit I cant accurately participate there. But Id wager that most others here sounding some very aggressively worded opinions also cant, as from the impression that I got from the only example provided and much of what others were saying insinutates that "throw" = "optimal throw down floors to delay progress".

[modern knot]

to me that just comes down to map design or poor positioning

if loops or objectives are placed next to holes and bunnies are caught there then they deservedly get thrown down

i think thats the reason every (?) floor 4 room has a big hole in the middle

[foggy dew]

I mean skill is in the name for a reason you need skill to hit great skill checks but afterall you can avoid getting stunned by simply throwing the bunny so I don't believe they need to be removed

Best thing they could do is slightly decrease the great skill check making it slightly more skillful to hit to please the ones complaining

[modern knot]

you need the type of skill that has almost nothing to do with this genre

[dire arch]

Generally, yes. But theres also the fact that the magi controls chase more than a bunny does unless the bunny has multiple good items at their disposal. That takes everything to an entirely different discussion because item spawns are feast or famine, so sometimes its 50 fireworks and unicycles for the easy life, others youre lucky if you find two fireworks, but heres 50 largely useless balloons (at least with the current implmentation of activation time and landing and a large chunk of the map design). Sometimes youre doing an objective and an active imposter is slapped down right next to you and youre just guaranteed caught, no counter. Plus, with stutter stepping, it's not challenging for a magi to sneak up on certain positions or angles with literally no noise involved, so it's easier to get angles for hat grabs (which are meh, different discussion) or active imposter, which is all but a guaranteed grab.

[modern knot]

active imp and stutter stepping are a different discussion i think

[dire arch]

Yes, but they do overlap with the idea that "if youre near an objective, you deserve to be thrown", because that may not always be the case with such things. And unfortunately, we sorta gotta take the suggestions in a vaccuum, assuming all other mechanics stay the same. Unless we discuss otherwise, of course.

[spiral saddle]

Active imp are good for dealing with bunny that group up so its needed.

[modern knot]

if youre near an objective placed next to a hole specifically, not any objective

[spiral saddle]

And stutter stepping is a non-issue too.

[dire arch]

But active imp and such still apply. I dont think a bunny should be 100% penalized for being caught at an objective that they need to do in order to progress the game, especially when the other half of floor progression can easily be camped, forcing them to the unideal position.

[spiral saddle]

"Camped" ?

https://tenor.com/view/triggerd-gif-19804742

[dire arch]

Please catch up on our conversation before providing input on it. My terminology makes total sense in the context of the discussion.

Otherwise, agree to disagree, not going down this rabbit hole again (ha).

[weak cradle]

i think you do have time to do 3 actions before throwing, if bunny gets all greats, in most cases.
Unless they get very favorable placements, and are quick enough to react on it, wich i am not, and i think very few are.

[spiral saddle]

[weak cradle]

great should stay, but great impact can be reduced for wiggling

[normal wolf]

you should be able to do 2 actions even with all greats imo so loot card loot loot ect going for 3 should be a risk

[spiral saddle]

yeah i am risking the use of one of my ability, what a silly magi he want to use one of his core mechanics.

[weak cradle]

Agreed, good 🙂

[spiral saddle]

It was obvious sarcasm, you ask why your 10 hour on magi explain a lot on the other post.
You got a good exemple right there.

[weak cradle]

for impostors, it is never worth trying to get greats, so that's a non-issue, it still takes loads of time to get it off after you hit a great.

the great zone on imps are 1/4 the size of a tightrope check, and i fail tightropes sometimes.
i never try going for greats on highstrikers either, it comes randomly.

[spiral saddle]

Nobody have talked about the great skillcheck on other thing than wiggle, the only skillcheck problem is on the wiggle, the other are fine.

[weak cradle]

yet another thing we agree on. can it get better

[stark finch]

My only problem is sometimes i don't even have time to "loot-loot-throw"

I literally had a match yesterday, where i grab a bunny with no key in the back, loot him, walk two steps to take a bit better throw angle... And he was already out. If he had a key in his back, I wouldn't be able to even loot his pockets before he wiggles off

[modern knot]

im honestly surprised at how many people like the qte

[spiral saddle]

The perfect or the mechanics ?

[modern knot]

perfects

its such an uninspired and meaningless way to add skill

[spiral saddle]

Yeah but either the people that defend that:

1. Don't hit perfect, aren't good at skillcheck so think its good like that cause they never experience the 3sec of wiggle time as bunny.
2. Never play magi or not that much to see the obvious problem.
3. Want to keep the advantage cause they prefer having an advantage on their main role than having a balanced game.

[sharp locust]

if we are to keep skill checks it would be cool to have them vary more

maybe change the High Striker to be mashing or something, Trapese Ropes could be balancing left and right (and having it be swingy), breaking from grasp could be a sequence of WASD keys
none of these would have a "great" window, only doing the best possible
(and the striker mash would be capped to ~1.25 (or 1.35 if 3-Strikers must stay an option) Hits at best. it won't save any but it'll make there be room for error

[modern knot]

dont mash for high striker but yes i like the idea of varied minigames

balancing on the tightrope would be fun

[sharp locust]

idk. something "strength based" would make sense but in not sure what would fit other than mash

[modern knot]

mashing is just an accessibility nightmare

[sharp locust]

ahhhh true

didn't consider that

[modern knot]

holding the button and releasing in the skill check zone is a good alternative for that kind of thing

but obviously greats would still need to be massively tuned down

[sharp locust]

plus wiggling being movement would make nose sense than timing

[modern knot]

i saw someone else suggest hitting greats makes the animation faster rather than the progression

[sharp locust]

that would help

[weak cradle]

in regards to wiggling, is there any indication to how close the bunny is to wiggle free? if not, that would be goo,d so you ''feel'' when it's abouty to escape, and you use that to decide to skip the card or cage.

maybe not perfect info, but knowing if it's past 60% or 70%, knowing when it's at 90% would maybe be too much info.

[modern knot]

making it consistent would give you perfect info and be balanced

[weak cradle]

booring

[spiral saddle]

So you can see it but can't do anything about it as magi ?

That's evil for magi player ngl.

[sharp locust]

except you can

you have this magical thing called m1: throw

[spiral saddle]

Wow you are the smartest bro.

Just didn't understand the problem with the wiggle + the card...

[tiny briar]

Y'know what? New Idea,
Great skill checks are worth more, but you can't chain them together, once you hit one, you must wait a [time] in order to get another.
Leaves bunnies with skill checks that mean something, leaves magicians with more consistent timers. win-win.

[modern knot]

why does it need to be that way when having a 100% consistent wiggle timer is already THE solution

[pine oar]

Yeah man, you should be able to lose your key, some of your loot, get a card and get tossed in a le box consistently everytime.

[rugged jackal]

https://tenor.com/view/west-virginia-no-pity-consequences-complain-nashville-gif-7370563532678466062

Imagine getting caught and thinking you should be able to get away in seconds

[modern knot]

you should get carded and lose a gear every time

[pine oar]

Should you though? Because with that logic, why not just make the card automatically applied on pickup

[modern knot]

a magi might want to save that card for someone else, a time loss of a couple seconds to apply the card could also still make a difference elsewhere

a consistent wiggle timer also allows devs to specifically place cages to be accessible dependent on the actions you take

and where youre caught

automatically applying the card would still be good in terms of making it actually useable though

[pine oar]

For what its worth, do I think the wiggle time should be increased? Yes. Do I think that greater skill check zones should be removed? I don't.

But I also think that the magi has to make a decision on what they're going to do on pickup. They shouldn't have enough time to remove a key, do a shake, apply a card, and take them to a box close by. Remove a key, apply a card and toss? Sure. If they're fortunate enough to have a box or cage nearby? Might have to potentially not do the card. Risk vs. reward and all that.

I'd also be fine with the card application animation being considerably quicker than it is today.

Not that my opinion matters or anything, but since we're all chiming in.

[modern knot]

the risk of not removing a gear is rarely if ever worth the reward of placing a card

the only risk/reward that makes sense is whether you throw or cage and the actions you want to take beforehand should inform that

[pine oar]

But you can apply a card and remove a gear today, without issue. (Assuming theres nobody nearby for a save)

[modern knot]

if a bunny has a key in their back and 2 items in red slots not really

otherwise no one would even be talking about this

[tame ocean]

but the magi could also throw the bunny immediately, which is already a large setback if the bunny falls down a level

[pine oar]

That's part of my point. Is that you shouldn't be able to remove a key, do a shake, apply a card, take a gear every single time. You run the risk of the bunny hitting greats.

You're going to remove a gear from them, thwart their upward progress - and potentially send them down multiple levels - which costs bananas energy if they have to utilize ropes to come back up. And also apply a temporary debuff which could do a number of things to further hamstring them, and they have to look for another key on the way back up. Every single time. I just don't think thats the play, personally.

[spiral saddle]

Imagine you are getting punished because you get grap by the magician.

[tame ocean]

yes im arguing against removing great zones

if that wasnt clear

[spiral saddle]

The problem with your logic is that you think bunny cant be consistent in hitting every single perfect skillcheck, but that's not true.
Bunny in high mmr hit for the most part all perfect, so the magi didn't have time anyway to put a card.
There is no risk and reward, the magi should be able to put a card on you when he grab you without the bunny getting away in 3sec.

And the "decision making" argument also doesnt make sens, if the magi player have to choose between a card and a tos, nobody will choose the card.

• you have to double shake to put a card so its not really a decision.

[weak cradle]

assuming wiggling takes 20 and 10 sec for simplicity, half the time, depending on normal/great checks.
Maybe that should be 18 12, but i like great skillchecks. great should not be double the power for wiggles.

[spiral saddle]

lol in 20sec the magi have time to cross the whole room.

[pine oar]

They arent consistent in hitting them. Everyone makes this argument but it’s just not the case. Can they hit many or most? Yeah. Are they hitting them consistently so they can never have a key pulled, be carded and yeeted? No and it’s a bad faith argument of the extremes people like to use along with “3 second wiggle time.”

[spiral saddle]

3sec wiggle happen man, maybe try to hit every perfect you will see how much its unfair.

[pine oar]

That’s my point. People are not consistently hitting every single perfect despite that argument constantly being made

[spiral saddle]

They do, maybe not you, but people in high mmr do it.
And even if it wasn't on every grab, the fact that its possible will make the magi don't put a card.

Cause the risk over a bunny getting away isn't worth.

[pine oar]

Yeah that’s just not true. I’ve been in the top 100 or 75 or something and have played with people all the way at the top of the board. What you’re saying just doesn’t happen consistently. Can it happen if someone hits every single perfect in the QTE? It can. But it’s not happening all the time in high MMR play.

[spiral saddle]

Even if it happen 1/3 of the time would you risk a tos over a card ?