#MMR Gain/Loss Rework

49 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

crimson charm
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I feel like there's many posts highlighting the same general idea, but I wanted to post it in some less..aggressive verbiage

MMR gain/loss seems to be quite wonky between bunnies and magician. Ie. if bunnies lose, they lose a decent chunk of MMR (makes sense), but if magi loses, they typically gain a little, if not losing 0 or maybe a but more if they literally don't even play the game and get stomped. On the other hand, if magi wins, they get a bunch more MMR than even a single bunny carrying the entire team could get.

The above discrepancies in MMR gain/loss results in a ton of unjustified high-MMR killers and many unjustly-low MMR bunnies. This creates situations where magis can't get games forever because there's a ton of high MMR magi's, but no high MMR bunnies due to how grindy it is for bunnies. This also results in some crazy good low-MMR bunnies who smash the unjustfully high MMR magi's because the skill gap between high MMR bunny and magi.

General gist:

  • MMR is too grindy for bunny
  • MMR is way too easy for magi (even losses often net as much MMR as a decent win for a bunny, ie around 14 MMR)

Best suggestions:

  • Make MMR for bunny a bit easier to gain. Ie. just reward more for doing good things and of course for victories. Ideally, this means that bunnies can potentially zero out on a loss where they made it a few floors. Currently, they're still sitting negative a majority of the time unless they escape.
  • Make MMR for magi quite a bit harder to gain. Currently, it seems like they just get a bunch for every kill they get (even just caging and such?), so it's almost impossible for them to go down even when losing. They should get solid MMR when they have a flawless victory, but outside of that, if any escape, it should remove MMR to balance out the MMR from kills.
  • It also seems that the MMR of others' doesn't play a role in the MMR gains/losses. I can't know this for sure, but it just seems that way from the crazy numbers. May need a tweak.
kindred sluice
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Currently it is impossible for the Magician to lose MMR

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Even if all bunnies escape, you still gain MMR

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Which proves how strange this all is

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lol

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Also I agree, I stopped playing Bunny because it just was not worth it, did not give MMR

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Now all I play as Magician and I have not lost a single match yet and its been 2 days

crimson charm
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I will say it is possible for Magi to lose MMR, but they have to play exceptionally poorly. Id wager that they need to play purposefully badly.

kindred sluice
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lol

crimson charm
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but yeah, strange for sure..definitely needs a good lookin at!

kindred sluice
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NO. I WANT TO REACH 2K FIRST

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jk

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Yeah it needs to be reworked

dreamy knoll
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the other issue is the learning curves. Bunny is significantly harder to learn than Magi is. this results in Magi who have been dominating lower MMR ranking are suddenly getting steamed rolled to the point they cant figure out why.

kindred sluice
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This is very true, I'm a bit of a villain in this

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I main magi and I am winning every game

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Believe me when I say this, it's been 2 days and I have not lost a match yet

covert berry
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It being based purely on point gain is silly

coarse thistle
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i noticed that if you damage bunnys enough, without killing anyone you still get mmr at the end (4-6+) so to lose mmr as a magician you should like catch bunnys 3-4 times and then do nothing...

kindred sluice
dreamy knoll
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to play devils advocate for a sec. when the game is out full time. the current MMR system will mean the new bunnies only face off against new magicians that haven't fully figured out how to play magi yet.

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so this could be an issue now simply due to the smaller player base.

kindred sluice
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That's fair

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But

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@dreamy knoll I am not new to magician and I am still being placed with new players

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Magician is extremely easy to learn

crimson charm
# dreamy knoll so this could be an issue now simply due to the smaller player base.

Eh. It's less the player concentration and more that magi's MMR is massively overrepresenting their actual skill and bunny MMR is massively underrepresenting their skill. Ie. an insane bunny player may hit 1200-1300 MMR and that's up there, while a newbie magi can climb to 2000 quite easily. It's the metrics by which MMR + or - is calculated that are incorrect here; more or less players won't change that.

kindred sluice
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Bunny is not

crimson charm
kindred sluice
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Yeah I guess that's fair for now

midnight igloo
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it should be zero sum

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for magi especially literally only going up makes it less like mmr and more like.... idk, an hours played display 😭

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i also noticed the mmr gains are a lot higher with 5 players because you just do More things over the course of the game and it definitely needs to be adjusted for that if 1v5 is staying

crimson charm
# midnight igloo it should be zero sum

yeah, I feel like that's typically how MMR is calculated. You effectively "take" MMR from the better players (higher MMR) who lose to you or sometimes a tiny bit from the players if they're lower MMR and lose. Ideally weighted based on game performance and the difference between MMRs of the versing parties.

kindred sluice
white agate
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Agree 100%, the current MMR system is way too forgiving for Monster, and way too stringent for Bunny.
Monster should not be able to gain MMR if any Bunny escapes via an Exit Gate.
Bunny should be able to gain MMR more easily; like If I reached the 4th floor and spent at least some time up there, I should be gaining MMR. I sure as hell shouldn't be losing MMR if I put in a cog or two, or if the Exit Gates open but I get caught just before escaping.
Like maybe there should be a meter that fills, and if that meter fills you gain MMR regardless if you die or not.
*Spending time on 3rd floor fills the meter up extremely slowly.
*Spending time on 4th floor fills the meter up at a moderate rate.
*Placing a Cog on Floors 1-3 fills the meter by a large chunk.
*Placing a rope fills meter a bit.
*Placing a Cog on Floor 4 fills the meter by a massive amount, as does turning that cog.
*Completing a strongman minigame fills the meter up a little. Only once per strongman minigame so you cant just farm it. Same with Ferris lever and Roller Coaster.
*Using a cannon (as either the operator or as the "ammo") gives a bit of meter.
*Exit Gates opening (even if you didnt open them yourself) fills the meter a bit
*Escaping automatically maxxes out the meter.

dreamy knoll
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due to how much luck plays into wins/loses I don't think anyones MMR should be tied to bunny deaths. I had a match earlier today as a bunny. Found rope on first bunny I searched next to a teammate that found a key on the first bunny they searched. was on 2nd in less than a min with a rope down. Guy climbs up the rope. finds another rope next to the zipline I was working on. Boom now we are on 3rd in just over 3 min. None of us did anything special, except we got SUPER lucky. Had another a little bit ago where the tickmen spawned on several objectives and no one could find smoke or fireworks. Plus they lucked out with starting listen right next to bunnies who are then forced to play dead. Again a skillless game, but all 5 bunnies died.

point is, in both those games its weird to have gained MMR when no one really did anything.

dreamy knoll
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In fact there are actually alot of things that require little to no skill but have high rewards. A good example of this is tossing an active imposter down before beginning a chase. You can follow the imposter tackle up with a hat grab to maximize points gained. How would that go into calculating MMR? Plus bunny side needs teamwork, so teamwork plays should be weighted heavier than anything else. With this in mind simply opening a gate should be worth less than turning a key for another bunny or placing rope down.

I don't know the best way to calculate MMR in this game. I do agree the current method is creating issues though.

midnight igloo
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the result of the game is definitely the most important factor to consider but it cant be the only one. game length, teamwork and objective progression are probably the next best

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i think the main thing to address is magi getting unbelievably massive swings with +30-50

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i think bunny having mmr gains capped at +-15 or so while magi is capped at +-20 would help it be a lot more reasonable and accurate, and try to make it as zero sum as possible to avoid mmr inflation like we have now

dreamy knoll
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I agree with you, Magi should be the main focus on MMR calculation adjustments. The main issue I worry about with bunnies is bunnies escaping due to teammates doing all the work. I have had games where I just followed the path my teammates fought for. I escape and the one that was taking chase the whole time died. I don't think I should get a better score in these situations. While for me that comes more down to chance, I can see people taking full advantage of this. Just yesterday, There was a bunny that got tunneled out the game early on. The Magi walked past other bunnies just to search for that 1 bunny. Due to the magi wasting all that time 3 of us had an easy walk up to 4th. Magi got rewarded for doing the dumb thing, and that bunny got severely punished in the score boards.

Stuff like this should be considered.

midnight igloo
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for that reason it might be better to calculate mmr teamwide rather than individually

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if bunnies get like 3 escapes and 2 deaths then like +8 mmr for them, -8 for magi (or whatever values make sense)

dreamy knoll
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That seems fair. And you aren't wrong about the luck part. Math always evens out when given enough time.

midnight igloo
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the main issue with that is if someone dies and leaves before the game is over their mmr cant really be adjusted properly for the next game

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but itd probably be fine to just use their current mmr in that situation and then adjust whenever they go back to the lobby

dreamy knoll
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I like you. you speak my language.