#My humble opinion on The Magician's current state and balance in general.

46 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

elder salmon
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BEFORE READING

I wanted to wait with posting my opinion of this untill we're a bit further into the public alpha to get a more stable opinion by getting games with mmr matchmaking.
BUT I've seen many discussions about balance going again so I wanted to brint my opinion into the mix.
Current mmr as of writing around 3300
I tried to put it into logical order with subtitles but kept adding things so it's kinda messy now sorry.

The Magician

Long story short: He's strong, don't buff him or nerf bunnies directly. Change gameplay mechanics to counter advanced players.

Long story long:
Against new/solo players he feels overwhelming.

I would say balance wise he was fine before adding the listening ability.
The listening ability is too much in his current state.
I get that it was an attempt to slow games down but the people it's intended for don't care.
New players don't know what it does, it happens a lot, ...
Experienced players just don't care about being seen most of the time especially the top mmr premades.

The active imposters are amazing, I am loving them as a lot of people have seen on my streams.
BUT, most times placing an active imposter just opens them up to do objectives.
Why would I want to put a 60 second imposter somewhere if I can place a "permanent" imposter at an objective blocking it until it is detroyed.
They are fun and useful in some cases but a lot of times the risk vs reward is not worth it.

I am liking this game a lot, and I am fine with playing against the top mmr squad because I like challenges. But I know a lot of people won't or they will complain about magician being too weak.
For the sake of new players, don't buff the magician. He is strong enough.
If you want to keep the listening ability, nerf it by a lot so it's a special ability but the way it's implemented it feels too powerful for an already opressive character AGAINST NEWER PLAYERS.

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In last weeks closed alpha I played multiple games where people couldn't get to third, sometimes even second floor and that's against people that should kinda know what they're doing.

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Gameplay mechanics

The problem this game currently has is the difference in balance between new/"normal" players/premades and high mmr (premades)
this is a problem a lot of asyms face and it's normal.

The difference in skill is coming from a lack of information most of the time so PokerPlate's post is needed.
#1427039993041387530 message

The other big difference is in the usage of gameplay elements that are available to the bunnies.
Saving a teammate with a rocket or marbles has to stay in the game 100%. It's fun to do and feels skillful when it's pulled of by a bunny.
However this happens way more in premade lobby's than solo lobby's.
A saved bunny gets panic, which is the anti-tunnel tool of this game.
A saved bunny doesn't take damage YET it receives panic.
In a premade setting the following happens:
You grab bunny -> teammate saves with firework -> You can't go for the same bunny so you grab the other bunny -> The bunny you grabbed first has a firework and saves the 2nd bunny.
This leads to frustrating gameplay for the magician because he feels powerless in those situations.

With marbles it's even worse, making it possible for bunnies to save themselves, if their timing is right and still getting panic.

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Continuing on the topic of panic. Bunnies shouldn't be alowed to do things while in panic. It's meant for them to run away from the magician, maybe go down a floor without taking damage or going into a bunny hole.
Why can panicked bunnies do objectives, loot, ...
If you want panicked players to be able to decide to do things like looting, opening gates, ... fine but then they don't really seem panicked. So change panic so it removes after starting an action.
If you have to choose between removing panic or just blocking them from doing actions I would suggest the first, so it doesn't feel like panic is a downtime for the buns.

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Map layout and obstacles

The map is filled with obstacles. The bunnies can get onto these obstacles with the use of high jump/trampoline. On a lot of these obstacles, the only solution is a hat grab, BUT hat grab doens't really work that well if you try to aim it higher.
So you have to look at the roof to get the smallest chance of it connecting. Meanwhile the bunny can still dodge it. Most of the places, an imposter won't help, an active one, maybe but you need them to delay objectives so using them in such situations is a waste.
Meaning every time they get onto one of these obstacles, either you waste a lot of time or you have to drop chase.
In these situations you can't do anything about it. This is not because the magician is weak. It's just "impossible" to get them.
Again this leads to frustration on the magicians side.

The carnival is floor layerd. It should be easier for the bunnies on the lower floors.
However, some of the strongest loops are higher up.
Centre 1, 4th floor is incredible for bunnies. Especially if they have the high jump gear.
I think infinites/god loops on the first floor should be a thing, just so bunnies can survive if the magician somehow is able to focus one bunny.
On the higher floors loops should still be a thing but they shouldn't be as strong.
Someone said to just use imposters but then again -> Why waste an imposter if by using it, you risk your whole setup from collapsing.

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Talking about items.

Items in this game in general are ... fine.
In a 5 man premade it sometimes looks as there are too many items.
In a 5 man solo lobby it seems like there's not enough.
There is nothing you can really fix about this.
However oilers are a common pain point in the community.
5 bunnies with 3 gears = 15 gears total = +/- 20 grabs.
With oilers this can become way more.
At first my opinion was that the only solution was to remove oilers in 1v5, keep them in 1v4.
BUT this is unfun for a bunny who had a bad early game.
So at least put a limit on oilers.
Don't remove life gears at the start of the game as done before. 3 is fine, oilers are the problem.

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Don't overbuff/overnerf

I know the test periods are short. But it seems like most times one side gets multiple nerfs/buffs at once.
Maybe try to add changes gradually to see their impact.
Example: bunnies were too strong
-> Bunnies only got 2 life gears + item distribution changed
-> Bunnies way too weak
-> 3 life gears added back + item distribution changed
Split those things up.

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Aftertalk

I would love different opinions on all of these points. Agree to the ones you agree to, disagree where necessary. Have an solution in mind? Please share it with us!
Need clarification on a point? Reply here, send a DM or ask me on stream.
I like to play both sides however I have currenly played way more magician due to my friends not having closed access. (50 bunny matches. 100 magician)
So as mainly a magician player at this point. I don't want easy wins, but I also don't want to feel useless/stressed all the time.
Again, love the passion of the community and the dev team. Thank you that I can be part of it.

Wanted to post it before I went to bed so I could've missed some things/made things unclear.
Heading to bed now, will read responses after waking up! Goodnight folks!

vestal drum
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the reason items are so wack is because new players dont have incentive/dont understand how to interact with jack and the minigame, theyre a crazy item farm and in other cases item drops are just completely random with afaik no rhyme or reason to them

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it doesnt seem like items need to be overall reduced or increased in quantity as much as they need a massive overhaul with spawning rules and limitations (if the game is intended to be more competitive)

frozen ember
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Regarding listening ability, i think its fine. I would just make it so it starts really weak at the beginning of the game, and gets stronger the more gates are open (Shorter cooldown for example) so it gives magician time to maybe try and get the game back in his favor rather than punish players early on for trying to get 1 gate open. (Considering hes playing against new players.)

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This would make it so listening ability is not that strong against players that take it slow (New players in most cases)

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And it gets stronger when bunnies are rushing objectives. (So cooldown gets shorter the more gates/objectives are done)

vestal drum
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listening doesnt discourage good teams to stop rushing

frozen ember
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so it actually makes them think twice before running while ability is active

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Im just trying to think how to tweak this ability, it seems nice on paper but its very punishing for new players and not for good bunnies. It should be other way around imo, just hard to come with solution.

vestal drum
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magi already knows your position when you do an objective so if he sees your aura during that time its super redundant

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something that discourages vets has to be something like a charge penalty, slower opening speed and whatnot (or nerf ropes so the magi is able to keep the game state at lower floors when playing well)

frozen ember
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Would it be too much if magician was able to see all gears and gates on a map? Lets say he had Focus ability that went on cooldown after using for like ~30 sec. Ability lasts for ~4 seconds and he sees all gears even if they are carried by bunny (?)

night obsidian
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Leaving some of these here in case they help

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Also this one is really interesting as well

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I feel like Magi is currently overpowered against non premade teams and it seems like they keep trying to fix the premade team issue but at the cost of new player/public lobby players

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Im not denying that premades can feel overwhelming to the Magi, I dont know because Im a bunny main, but Im not sure if balancing the game around this issue favors the majority of the rest of ppl that just play in public lobbies with randos or the new ppl that its starting

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Plus the changes they made so far dont seem to slow down premades rushing in any way

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I feel like they should reconsider the whole "listening" ability and make it far less punishing and obnoxious to deal with

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It is just not fun and fun should be the top 1 priority specially now before the full release

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I feel like the game gets more competitive every patch and not in a good sense

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It just means you have to sweat harder and have less fun to win a game and at the end of the day if the systems are not fun why bothering competing

vestal drum
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its definitely not more competitive

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the wedge between solo/new and vet/premade is just getting bigger

night obsidian
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Well I could take my time exploring the floors around, hiding from Magi, looking for gears, now it all feels fast paced like speedrunning is the only strat to go

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thats what I was trying to refer to idk if competitive is the right word

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I had fun before, taking it slow

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Now everything's a rush and stealth is close to pointless

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I liked to take in the eeriness of the map, watch the Magi walk past while playing dead, finding my teammates and a gear, getting to the door and then worrying Magi would hear it and appear, having to escape him after that, enjoyed the chase, the pace, now I just run run run and keep running while my teammates do the same and we all do solo objectives bc Magi keeps spamming the listen so no point on being together or any of the above mentioned features

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pair it with the buffs he already recieved pre-listen and its just not fun right now

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but somehow it is all justified with "Premade teams are rough to play against"

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even tho I dont think it affected them as much, its the solo guys that suffer the changes

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And without the things that made the gameplay unique it is just another DBD clone as many ppl are calling it on the Steam Reviews

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I dont fully agree with that but I see where they're coming from

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Its turning into another sweaty game for sweaty gamers and has no place for anyone else