#Add Skill Expression to Hat Trick

445 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

celest mason
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The Magician's Hat Trick currently suffers from a general lack of skill expression. The ability has far too much delay to be used in a chase, and reducing it isnt an option without making it feel oppressive due to the lack of warning it would provide when used, meaning its primary use case is sniping bunnies from higher floors who don't know the Magician's location, rendering it a fairly inert tool that punishes new or bad players instead of letting the Magician use their skill to beat better ones.

I propose the following: While Hat Trick initially slows the Magician down, they can "lock in" a spot by pressing the button, accompanied by a sound cue, the magician visibly rearing back to plunge his hand into the hat, and allowing him to move at full speed again. Pressing the button again would finish the ability, with magician trying to grab a bunny near the locked-on spot. You would also retain the ability to cancel it, suffering a small speed penalty like normal.

With this change, the ability would have a proper use in chase. Imagine that the magician is chasing a bunny, and the bunny is aiming to move through a doorway. The magician can use hat trick and lock in a spot, and force the bunny to make an educated guess: did the magician try to cut off the doorway, or did they anticipate that the bunny would double back and run a different direction instead? This would add a tremendous amount of skill expression and mindgames as a good Magician player would mix it up and keep the bunnies guessing. You could also handily solve infinites: lock in a spot in a loop, and the bunny has to either walk to their deaths or double back into your loving embrace.

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celest mason
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@native glade you might enjoy this :3

lone orbit
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i like ur circles

native glade
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Welp, This fixes Hat Trick’s biggest flaw...no real skill expression...and turns it into an actual mindgame tool instead of a clunky snipe ability. Honestly, this is the first version that makes the ability feel worth mastering and would make me feel good grabbing a bunny with it instead of being surprised when I actually manage to do so.

celest mason
lone orbit
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got dam dey done sqashed plang tong to a pang cake !!

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oh yeah this is hella based

celest mason
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thanks I try

coral mica
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It's not a delay, but more of the horizontal aim

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This what makes hat very hard to use

lone orbit
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everything about hat makes it hard to use

celest mason
coral mica
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But with camera being on the eyes level, this ability is extremely hard to aim the further bunny is

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Because you lose precision

celest mason
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even if you have precise aim, if the bunny sees you prepping hat trick you arent hitting it

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it only works on bunnies who dont know what you do

coral mica
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Change ability control + make aoe bigger

lone orbit
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bunny counterplay is just repeatedly walking back and forth at a chokepoint until the magi uses it and then run through with miles of distance

coral mica
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Leave delay the same

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Big problem is that the further you aim, the faster cursor is moving + it's harder to see the position of the aim

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Hat is kinda easy to use when you are a floor above

celest mason
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yeah because bunnies a floor below arent expecting you lmao

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thats not a flaw of its controls thats a flaw of the ability

coral mica
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Even if they do, it's still easier to aim

coral mica
obtuse comet
celest mason
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the problem is the delay

coral mica
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You can't tell if aim is on the bunny or behind

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Camera perspective

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It's all first person camera

1135.png
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In first person the closer you aim, the easier you to control the ability

lone orbit
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this isnt related to hat trick itself but i would love if you held imps like normal bunnies and could drop/throw them, and alternatively use hat trick to place them in a specific far location

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rather than it "using" hat trick by default

obtuse comet
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throwing impostors would be really funny lmao

coral mica
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This is the current problem with a Hat Trick. The further you aim, the harder it to be precise, because even the slightest mouse movement will move your hat too far.

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Snowman is the camera and line is where you aim your hat trick. Camera movement is linear, but you can see how the line is speeding up the further you try to aim. It's all because of the perspective and camera placement. Hat Trick is a skillshot that is designed for a Moba or something

celest mason
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Regardless of how hard it is to aim, a bunny who sees that you have hat trick primed is not getting hit by it

coral mica
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I will demonstrate my solution how to keep the hat mechanic the same, but change the controls

celest mason
coral mica
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Most my misses were because i overshoot

celest mason
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So you put it out ahead of them, the bunny sees you stop in place to do the trick, and they double back

coral mica
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cause you have bad control of the hat position when you try to catch a bunny that is far away, but on your floor

celest mason
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Or run slightly to the left or right

tawny idol
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your saying it’s like prediction like it’s pyramid head 50/50s in dbd

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it’s really not

coral mica
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You are both missing the point

celest mason
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I'm not missing it, I just don't care

coral mica
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I'm not talking about the delay or 50/50

celest mason
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It being easier to control does not fix its core issue

tawny idol
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i’m not saying it’s a 50/50

coral mica
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It would 100% fix

tawny idol
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it more like a 20/80 in the bunny’s favor

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LMAO

coral mica
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Risk/Reward

tawny idol
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or you can just chase with over buffed mag speed and grab

celest mason
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the reward is I end chase maybe 3 seconds sooner

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the risk is that I extend it by 10

tawny idol
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and catch them faster 90% of the time

celest mason
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like hat trick is genuinely so dogshit in chase

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I've never gotten hit by it in chase as bunny

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never hit it in chase as magician

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its just too damn slow

coral mica
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Because it's a top down skillshot but made into a first person camera

celest mason
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no!

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I am not struggling with it because its hard to aim

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I do not go "damn I overshot, this ability is hard to aim"

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I go "I perfectly fucking predicted their movement but it takes so long that they saw me stand still to do the thing and they went a different direction"

coral mica
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I miss mostly because I have no depth perception

tawny idol
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that’s not why ur missing most ur grabs i promise

celest mason
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like the ability is legitimately only useful for hitting people standing still

tawny idol
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you lose out on grabs a lot also because your playing 100+ ping

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unless your european

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then you have good ping

coral mica
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I'm a european

celest mason
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either from them not knowing you're there or impostor stuns

tawny idol
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if your american your playing 130 ping

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servers are german

celest mason
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what 😭

tawny idol
coral mica
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Hat Trick is easy to aim when you are a floor above bunnes, even if they try to dodge, it's much easier to catch

celest mason
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(its not)

coral mica
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I speak from my experience

tawny idol
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all NA players are playing 130+ ping

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lol

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aka makes hat trick even more fucked

coral mica
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Hat Trick is dogshit if you are trying to catch bunnies on your floor

tawny idol
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yea that’s true

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hat trick from a floor up is easier

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that’s not cap

celest mason
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its easier from a floor up I'll admit that

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but the primary factor determining its ease is "do they see you"

tawny idol
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also true

celest mason
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if they dont, cool free grab

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if they do, good fucking luck

coral mica
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Of course it's easier to grab a stationary bunny

tawny idol
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the problem is its validation to me

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but

tawny idol
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if you see a mag aiming at you you will move sporadic

celest mason
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ddr type shit

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otherwise straight line easy to predict

tawny idol
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if you don’t you likely won’t be baving a seizure moving around

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lol

celest mason
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or you break los and hide behind like a pillar

coral mica
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because of the extreme cursor movements

celest mason
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not really

coral mica
celest mason
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thats probably a depth perception issue

tawny idol
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more likely validation

coral mica
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The further you are trying to aim, less precision you have

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Because of the pov

celest mason
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yeah I know how distance in shooters works

tawny idol
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let’s do magician like we do calico in deadlock give 5 more buffs for no reason

coral mica
tawny idol
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then give him 5 more

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oh wait!

celest mason
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fuck calico dude

coral mica
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Your hat indicator will move like crazy even with the slightest mouse movements, if it's on max distance

celest mason
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bullshit ass character

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not even good just annoying

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meow

tawny idol
celest mason
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yeowt

tawny idol
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just like cali

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she is good now

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unfortunately

celest mason
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cold front spamming fuck

celest mason
tawny idol
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i think it’s hard to fix hat trick rn

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with the ping thing

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lol

coral mica
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And change movements to not aim based but just mouse movement

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Small block is a mouse

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So the idea is to lock vertical camera movement while doing the hat trick. And Hat cursor will mimic your mouse forward-back movement, but on a bigger scale. You can still turn your camera right and left

lone orbit
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making its aim controls better is good but that doesnt make it functionally better

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imagine if your m1 swing had a telegraphed 3 second delay before actually coming out, even if you can aim it the bunny can just perfectly jump over the grab every time

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thats the problem hat trick has

coral mica
lone orbit
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it needs a rework 😭

celest mason
winter meteor
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I think the idea is definitely interesting but I disagree with the intent.
Magician feels more like a setup killer rather than a chase killer. Setup bunnies, setup grabs or have grabs be setup through objectives.
Feels like the purpose of the hat is more of a tool to allow for pressure vertically rather than be a chase tool.

Aiming the hat is definitely tricky over long distances but I have suggested in the past that you should regulate the distance of the hat with a mouse wheel scroll rather than looking around.
(You look to get the direction, and than scroll up to send it further and down to send it back.)

I definitely understand that the hat feels clunky during chases but I just assumed it wasn't meant to be used in a chase in the first place.
It's a tool we have in our kit and we use it the best we can.

Plus with the new moving bunnies, they feel more like chase tool than the hat.

coral mica
lone orbit
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in an old gameplay trailer its showcased being used mid chase and not as a sneak attack https://youtu.be/-szE7xyE3NY?t=113

YouTube
IGN
Carnival Hunt - Official Gameplay Teaser Trailer

Check out the new gameplay teaser for Carnival Hunt, an upcoming first-person asymmetrical multiplayer horror game from Beer Night Studio in which one player takes the role of the carnival monster while the rest are bunnies. You can back it on Kickstarter if you're interested: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/badraa/carnival-hunt?ref=8xhxy3
...

▶ Play video
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while this is very old and the game has changed since, the only real difference between versions is how slow its usage is

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using it just to grab faraway unaware bunnies is also honestly really boring and unrewarding

winter meteor
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Yeah but we need to understand the context of its usage. We can't just say it used to be faster. Maybe it was faster because of the limitations of the other abilities or the map design

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It might even have just beed to show off during the trailer and not even fully designed for gameplay

celest mason
# winter meteor I think the idea is definitely interesting but I disagree with the intent. Magic...

Cool, counterpoint: That's fucking boring and it might as well not be an active ability if thats its intended use case

Magician SEVERELY lacks in skill expression right now. Cards are RNG, you can't get "better" at using your teleport or invis, your impostors are incredibly one dimensional - hat trick being an aimable ability is the only one that can actually be one you can improve at, but as its currently designed it just doesn't have the sauce

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It being only used for pressure on higher floors just encourages camping lmao

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And that's not fun for anyone involved

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A skilled Magician should be able to end chases super quickly by predicting where bunnies are going and get inside their heads, which would actually encourage people to play Magician more often to improve at it instead of every ability being completely static

winter meteor
# celest mason Cool, counterpoint: That's fucking boring and it might as well not be an active ...

Cool story bro, I can tell that having a discussion with you its one of the many pleasures in life...

Anyway, you dont need to just focus on the hat, I think that a rework of the active cards could also be better. Imagine if you had active cards that gave you temporary buffs. Maybe you use an active card and your hat trick is faster for 1 use. Maybe you can place them in bunnies, and with a few tweaks, you can have the bunny you are chasing highlighted AND you can snap your fingers to make him fall over. I think that would be cooler than a improved hat trick

celest mason
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and if you want to talk about cards make your own feedback post

winter meteor
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Aight well, I disagree with your idea

coral mica
lone orbit
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yeah it felt weird to me they just gave him stat buffs for 1v5 instead of making his actual kit better

toxic summit
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i did not read or understand that much, but i don't really like how hat works from the perspective of bunny or magician, seems easy to avoid for bunnies, and mostly a guessing game for magician atm. or just a zoning tool to stop them from biking through that doorway

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there should probably be some counterplay though. idk if your drawings allow for that.

lone orbit
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so the bunny has to predict the distance the magi chose for the trick alongside when theyre going to use it

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not just when its used

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he also moves full speed while the hat position is locked in

coral mica
lone orbit
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you can use it at loop choke points

coral mica
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Like circle loops?

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Which game doesn't have basically

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This suggestion only works to zone bunnies from a tight hallway

lone orbit
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anything that the bunny jumps over, set the distance away from you at the jump point

coral mica
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There are very limited amount of such places

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And majority of them can be outplayed by just following bunny and m1

lone orbit
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most loops are specifically jumping over things to gain distance 😭

coral mica
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You have impostors counter those

toxic summit
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thumbs up

lone orbit
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your argument is "because imps and m1 exist hat trick should stay in the gutter"

coral mica
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Your suggested rework would drop it in the deeper gutter

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It would be much more worse

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Cause no longer you can redirect it based on the bunny movement, but it would be only used in the couple niche scenarios

lone orbit
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you would have full movement speed and be able to use it at angles you cant directly see, if you wanted to keep its current functionality you can just double click

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its strictly a buff

coral mica
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Does canceling slow you down?

lone orbit
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in both versions yes

coral mica
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So that means if bunny sidesteps it slightly, you can no longer redirect the aim, yuu are forced to cancel while also getting a slowdown

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Also not mentioning the biggest hat trick problem right now (not having a precise aim at the distance)

lone orbit
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if the bunny sidesteps it slightly you just sidestep yourself

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if they walk backwards you walk backwarsd

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etc

coral mica
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Locked where the hat will trick occurs

lone orbit
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oh i think i misunderstood the original post actually

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but i still think its better

coral mica
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how so?

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Small bunny sidestep and you cant readjust

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Random bunny movement will make this ability even harder to hit

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You are forced to cancel

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while with the original ability you can at least flick

lone orbit
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in any situation where you would want to place an imp and zone a bunny into it you can use this instead, with the upside being the bunny doesnt know exactly where you placed the imp and has to play around that

celest mason
coral mica
celest mason
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thats why I specified that they move at full speed once you have a spot locked in

coral mica
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Unless canceling the hat doesnt slow you down at all

celest mason
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so you can either lock in a spot closer to the middle, or closer to the wall

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bunny now has to guess where it is

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if they guess wrong, you get a grab

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if they guess right, they're still dodging it, and neither side gains a speed advantage in the chase since both are slowed down

celest mason
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if you wanted to use it how its currently used, you can aim it, double-click, you have the same amount of delay you would normally before a grab

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this would just add an extra "mode" so to speak

celest mason
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once you press the "ok grab" button, the position is hard locked

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this rework would just add a mindgame on both sides so that if the magician is skilled enough and knows how the bunny would act, they can get an easy grab

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but the bunnies can outsmart the magician

coral mica
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Nah. It would be just a zone tool

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Nothing to do with skill

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Current hat trick is mostly fine, designwise

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Need some tweaks

celest mason
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its not a zone tool if they don't know where the zone is lmao

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you cant throw buzzwords at me and expect me to take it

coral mica
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I've yet hear a single good example

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how to use your version

celest mason
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do you want me to draw you one

coral mica
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Genuinely? Yes

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I want to see

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Because in my mind, the only way tonuse this version is to lock it in the doorway

celest mason
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ok here

image.png
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red is magician, blue is bunny

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magician sees that the bunny can get through the doorway and locks in a hat trick spot

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the bunny does not know which spot the magician has locked in

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if the bunny continues walking forward, the magician has wasted his time

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UNLESS he traps one of the spots in the hallway, in which case the bunny gets grabbed

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if the bunny calls the magician's bluff and goes into the doorway, they could either get grabbed or the magician wastes time

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its a mindgame and both sides will have to learn and exploit how the other player thinks

coral mica
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Where is the skill expression for Magician?

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Its just a gamble

celest mason
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...you're picking the spot.

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you're using your knowledge on how the bunny thinks and what they're most likely to do to pick the best spot

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how is that not skill expression 😭

coral mica
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How do you know where bunny will go?

celest mason
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you make an educated guess

coral mica
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But bunnies arent dumb

celest mason
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correct!

coral mica
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they will just pick random eoute

celest mason
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but you can also plan for that

celest mason
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the secret fourth option is the bunny runs back into the magician and looks like an idiot, but I sort of skipped over that one in the interest of saving time

celest mason
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and this is only the first layer

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a smart bunny can beat a smart magician by going down the path they locked in a spot, predict exactly where the spot is, and double back just before they would normally be within range of the grab

coral mica
celest mason
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but a smarter magician could anticipate that and be patient until the bunny finishes their double back and keeps running forward

coral mica
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You can never know what will be picked

celest mason
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the magician applies their skill through understanding through their experiences with this bunny so far how a bunny might play and what choice they're likely to make

coral mica
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Where is a mindgame though?

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You just pick a random spot and get your button ready

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pure random

celest mason
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lets call them jim and bob

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jim is a new player and he doesn't look behind himself very often

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so if the magician is chasing jim through a doorway, would you lock in a spot in the doorway, or the hallway?

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which spot is more likely to catch jim off guard?

coral mica
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Indont know. Jim might do a sharp turn

celest mason
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you're right, but the natural assumption is that he won't try to trick the magician, so he'll run forward

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there is a more likely option

coral mica
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And even if he didnt, It wouldnt be hard to catch him with the current hat trick version

celest mason
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but its not a guarantee

celest mason
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this is an objective hat trick buff

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you could use it like current hat trick if you wanted

coral mica
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But what if he did a sharp turn?

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You now have to cancel

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OR

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If you used original version, then you can react

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I understand what you are twlling me

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But I still think that original is fine. No need to add alt casts. Just make base hat trick easier to use

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There are bumch of ways

celest mason
coral mica
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Bigger aoe, shorter delay, better controls, better camera

celest mason
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this really isnt that hard to explain

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you can still aim it prior to locking a spot in

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if you think they're going to make a sudden unpredictable turn, wait for it, then adjust your aim and lock in your spot afterwards

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it would work just like current hat trick does

coral mica
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Then you can just pretend to cast, walk up to the bunny with full speed and then instantly flick with the default ability

celest mason
coral mica
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tonswitch to normal cast

celest mason
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no

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you misunderstand

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currently it goes

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activate hat trick > slow > press button > initiate grab

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the rework would make it as so:

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activate hat trick > slow > lock in spot > fast > press button > initiate grab, but faster

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if you wanted to use it like current hat trick, you'd double-click, skipping "fast" so that you do the grab immediately

coral mica
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SonIncan lock on, going fast, bunny dodged my lovked hat position, I instantly switch to direct aim (default) and use the grab on the new bunny position?

celest mason
coral mica
celest mason
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once a spot is locked in, you either initiate a grab or cancel the entire ability

celest mason
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you understand this?

coral mica
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Yes

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separate abilities

celest mason
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what does the first click do for current hat trick

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tell me that

coral mica
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Slow - Freeaim. Fast - locked aim

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But I asked what ahould I do if bunny dodged my path?

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Cancel abilility?

celest mason
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if you lock in one spot and the bunny goes a different path, you've lost the mindgame and you cancel the ability

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but until you lock in your spot, it works exactly like current hat trick

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you know how bunnies currently will dodge hat trick by moving all crazy?

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you would be able to adjust your aim for that until you lock in a spot

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but when you're ready to grab, you click once to lock in your spot, then immediately click again to start the grab

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theres no "alternate mode" or however you're interpreting it

coral mica
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Yeah, I understand

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Still think this is overcomplicate things

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Tell me why not just buff base skillshot?

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Keep it simple, but more lethal

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I think your lock Idea could be implemented for a different Monster

celest mason
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Unless you buffed it to the point that a bunny couldn't react to it, in which case what

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the bunny just has to eat shit with no counterplay?

coral mica
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There is always a good middle point

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abut current hat trick isnt it

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Too hard to control on the distance

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Too small aoe

celest mason
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We can agree that hat trick needs buffs, we can disagree on what exactly needs to be changed

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So let's leave it at that

coral mica
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My problem with it is mostly controls from the horizontal pov

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Its very hard to measure the distance

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Especially on the max distance

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I cant see how far or how close Im aiming, unless im aiming point blank or at the lower floor

winter meteor
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Turning the hat into a Zoning tool doesnt make any sense at all. It doesn't show any skill expression, you aren't landing a trickshot or a nice hat grab. You are placing it in one spot randomly mid chase and hoping it sticks.
If you land the hat grab, you are a 1000IQ genius. If you miss... You miss and there was no skill involved.
Additionally, it makes no sense that you keep the same speed while using the ability. There is no trade off. and no penalty
I mean at that point I might as well place a importor bunny and have him run at the bunny Im chasing

celest mason
# winter meteor Turning the hat into a Zoning tool doesnt make any sense at all. It doesn't show...

Well yeah, if you miss you weren't skilled enough. You wouldn't need to rely on bunnies not paying attention to land grabs with the reduced delay. You're rewarded for anticipating their movement, instead of punishing the bunny for not paying attention. Because now, even if a bunny is paying attention, if they go over the locked spot you should be able to catch them regardless of how erratic their movement is.

You keep the same speed after locking a spot in because your options after that point are to either cancel the ability or initiate a grab, both of which slow you down.

winter meteor
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I don't think that is a good gameplay mechanic.
Not only does a bunny have to run from the magician, they also need to predict the hat trap.
How will it even work with the current items in game? Can he be stunned out of his ability?
Also, there is no reason not to use that ability constantly in a chase, it has no downsides. The abilities should be something that you use for specific situations. Otherwise why even try to go for a regular grab.
Plus in certain situations its already an complete game over. The magician could literally use that ability to camp harder. He could set a trap at a striker, set it by a rope, set it by a door way. You could pre set it in places where bunnies will go just because you heard them and now you can tap-toe to position and set it up.
It seems to have quite a bit of room for improvement before its even implemented or added

celest mason
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arguing against a suggestion because it would add depth to chases and make it so the bunny has to worry about something other than holding W is pretty funny lmao

he can be stunned out of current hat trick, he'd be stunned out of this one. nothing changes?

the downside is that if you fuck it up, you've made the chase take longer. and it wouldnt have much use as a trap, because say you know a bunny's near a striker - you lock in a spot at the striker, and walk away. bunny hears the sound for the hat trick locking in and knows striker is trapped, and can wait as long as they want until you want to use a different ability. its holding yourself hostage.

obtuse comet
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i like this idea because it makes the magician a lot more mind-game-y (but i've probably said this before)
magician just kinda feels like an all-rounder
these changes that've been suggested and added have been making him more of a trap-based trickster which totally fits the "magic" feel more

candid ether
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Havent read all the discussion but I def agree with Sammy here and her idea def sounds awesome to me, it would make Magi way more interesting to play and add a skill curve "easy to do-hard to master" kinda deal. I just wonder if chase-escaping tools such as the unicycle would become obsolete with this. But neat idea

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Like lets be real the only times you're gonna get grabbed by a hat now is if you're on the middle of winding up a key to open a door and are stubborn about it/if you get trapped by an imposter bunny. You hear the hat ability miles away so its easy to stay out of it and it does favor Magis staying in upper floors just camping which is never fun for anyone but camp enjoyers

thin spear
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I have my own idea of a way to make hat trick stronger. When activating the hat trick you are locked in place as the skill goes on. My suggestion would be after activation, you could use the wasd keys. To have the arm reach out in that direction based on your facing. You could line a hat grab and they go left of it. You than press the "A" key while pressing the m1 key at the same time. The arm will grab to the left. For counter play the bunny could jump up to dodge it. Also to make it more skill based. You can make it so the magi can activate the directional grab. At any point during the base grab animation.

celest mason
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replacing a problem with a problem

thin spear
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That is why you can activate it at any point during the hat trick.

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If they jump immediatly you can time it to grab them when they are landing.

celest mason
thin spear
celest mason
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the problem with hat trick is that its too slow to land even with a good prediction, if you make it too fast you have the opposite problem

weary schooner
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I like the drawing.

coral mica
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Ability will remain garbage as long as they dont change the controls and pov

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Alt should force the camera to a top-down view, like aiming the artillery in world of tanks

honest totem
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I think giving Hat Trick a shorter cancel animation so you can fake it reasonably well could be a good way to make the ability feel more rewarding

Sammy's proposed idea is pretty great though.

I've realized over time that there are many more ways to use hat trick than I thought initially so I feel there is more skill expression to explore without any changes.

eternal rune
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I do not think magician should rely on hat trick being a tool in chase
it is something to catch bunny offguard, and it should stay that way imo
I am happy for longer range, faster animation and other buff to it
but I disagree with the direction of this proposed change
The reason being it adds layer of complexity to chases which might not carry over to other future killers. It also increase skill ceiling, bringing more challenge to balance. Solo will suffer while premade doesn't care. There solution is always a teammate with marble/rocket then panic mode
And it does not address the fundamental issue of magician facing bunny now. The problem is not catching bunny. It is catching them in a time short enough so magician can move on and stop other bunnies.

lone orbit
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do you really need help catching bunnies who are already off guard? at that point youre probably in a winning position in the game anyway, or that specific player isnt an issue

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magi doesnt necessarily need a chasing tool but hat trick very much so reads like one despite behaving horrendously at doing so, its only good at catching animation locked or completely clueless bunnies

celest mason
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my steak is too juicy

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my bread is too buttery

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there is no world in which that is a bad thing

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what you are describing is magician thats actually fun and worth playing to improve their skill level

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instead of peaking at 10 hours

lone orbit
eternal rune
# lone orbit youre saying "the problem isnt catching bunnies, its catching bunnies". a good h...

Please do not simply quote part of the things I say. I would try to elaborate more here
Right now I do not see bunnies capable of looping magi infinitely. The main issue with catching bunny is when the teammates always have something to save them once they are caught, giving the bunny panic while other bunnies pushing objetive. The change in hat trick will not solve this issue which I think is the core.
We often see magician leaving bunny to defend objective especially when mmr is higher. It is not that they can't catch the bunny, but chasing with risk of teammate firework/marble save makes such decision becomes high risk and discourage the chase scene. Not to mention chasing 1 bunny means multiple are free to push
As for bunnies off guard, I would say that relates to the range of hat trick. Currently when you are in hat trick range, as least for 2k+mmr, bunnies usually are good enough to pay attention and dodge unless in certain action animation. I would like to see hat trick range extend further so it is less likely for bunny to notice, keep them on their nerves even when dropped to the lowest level
I do agree magician does not need a chasing tool, what is needed is something to manage the coordinated aggression of high mmr bunny. It is not even just a premade problem, now even solo queue with increase in player level started to coordinate push and it will only get worse with player getting stronger

eternal rune
# celest mason "it adds layer of complexity to chases and increase skill ceiling"

This is a bad thing considering the direction of the game. I do not see CH being a totally balanced competitive game. It is in nature harder for asym to balance like MOBA, RTS, fps or Fighter. Even for multiplayer games out there in these mentioned genre, not all of them is balanced.
The most important thing for the game is to be fun, so players would be willing to stay. If they think certain thing is too hard to counter the initial excitement will eventually be gone before they learn how to play properly and I think it is bad for long term game development.
Sure devs can push for a competitive scene, make it esport or something being perfectly balanced but I highly doubt they have the resources.
On top of that, I do not see many players joining simply because it is a game where they would hone their skills and become the very best. More often than not it is a game for a group of friends to play hide and seek, laugh it off whether they get away or not. Something like lethal company is not successful because of the few elite players but the majority of casuals. A high skill ceiling will only push people away.
I do not have data on players but I doubt any stat collected now will be good indicator, considering most who play demo are experienced player in the genre. However we can't expect the player here will be able to support the game for long. Look at things like TCM. It simply isnt sustainable without a larger player base, which requires higher skill floor lower skill ceiling at least at launch. New killers can be harder and more challenging to learn but for the very first killer, imo a simple base kit easy to use is the way to go. There is a reason all starting characters of games like LOL are all simple to use characters.

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TLDR: I think game needs simple stuff to keep people playing so the game survives

lone orbit
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magi isnt played for a few reasons but one of them is that he isnt fun because he has almost nothing to get good at, theres no satisfaction in doing something cool. the game currently relies on an insanely complex foundation with simple mechanics built on top which works for some things like running around and finding different unique objectives that are simple to pilot, but magi having up to 5 different skills (including active gears) that have almost zero substance to them is really boring

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hat trick can have a high skill ceiling without sacrificing the skill floor of catching unaware/animation locked bunnies

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high skill floors push people away, not ceilings. you dont even need to know about what a character is capable of if youre coasting by with basic applications against basic players. the game also already has a high skill floor because of how many knowledge checks there are and making the game more expressive for people who are willing to pass that check adds longevity for those players

eternal rune
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I was not trying to address the issue of magician being a less attractive role. However I think the better solution to that would be simple increase to base stat. Any skills takes time to learn and u cant find much player with that patience. Before they learn to be good they will give up on the game

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I also disagree with high skill floors pushing people away. I would say the current build of game is suffering from high skill floors. Many players will not realize you can jump at right location and skip parts of the map, using balloon to bypass doors, open part of the door and run in so magician has to waste time open the door fully while bunny can safely do striker inside, keep track of bunny footsteps under different conditions, or learn to use the dummy head direction to find the hiding bunny. Just to name a few.
Before they learn half of these they will get bored and ditch the game. You can always improve ceiling later when the game gained a group of dedicated fans but for the beginning I think high skill floor will harm the game.

lone orbit
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you say you disagree with me but what youre saying is in agreement which is that a high skill floor is bad for beginners

eternal rune
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brain not working

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ok then

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high ceiling bad for newer players and casual players

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I was lost in my own wall fo text trying to edit so many things

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One sentence only from now on

lone orbit
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do we have the same definition of skill floor and ceiling

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to me skill ceiling = the maximum amount of skill you can express
skill floor = the minimum amount of skill required to play the game (in ch its too many things to list, but in dbd all you need to know is which buttons to press to repair a gen, drop a pallet, unhook a teammate/how to hit survivors, pick up and hook them, how to break pallets and vault windows)

eternal rune
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we can go with that

lone orbit
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in this case raising the ceiling doesnt necessarily need to affect the floor at all so newer players can have a very similar or the same experience while allowing players who care to actually get better at a specific thing

eternal rune
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high ceiling bad
example
I play starcraft, I see pro player do shit I aint capable of doing, thats ceiling
I got simple build order I can follow copied online, thats skill floor
I get frustrated knowing I can never get close to that level without practicing it like my life depends on it, I give up rank and play casual only

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Example 2
Marvel rivals, I see proplayer do stupid shit
I can use jeff to eat a bunch once in a while, even enemy team is of better skill, I find that fun
I keep playing

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Conclusion
High ceiling skills that gives low skill player, new or not, less chance to fight back, is bad for fun

lone orbit
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seeing a pro player do something has little to no effect on your actual ingame experience unless youre actually going against that player in which case youre not going to be at such a low skill that you cant do whatever youre seeing. if anything it would make your experience better because you can learn and apply things from what you saw and be rewarded for that learning (for example i saw a new loop in organ from this discord a few days ago, and if i were in that spot in a real game i would be satisfied with my ability to apply that knowledge and have a more fun experience because im doing a better job at delaying the killer)

eternal rune
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u can copy a loop, not things like pinpoint exact location of stuff with ears only, manage real time location of 5 bunny in mind, or a faster reflex

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Some people have fun learning new stuff. Som people have fun when they win. Doesn't need to be all the time, just once in a while

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As I said earlier, most lack the patience to learn.

lone orbit
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just bc some people dont want to get better at a mechanic doesnt mean nobody should have the opportunity to

eternal rune
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I also mentioned previously that later on when the game gets a group of fans you can add new things that increase the ceiling, not now though as I think it is bad at launch
I would love to be proven wrong by fact. Will see where patches go and how the launch goes

coral mica
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It would be boring if all upcoming Monsters kits were like Magician's

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Core gameplay being just Chase and Grab

celest mason
# eternal rune This is a bad thing considering the direction of the game. I do not see CH being...

A high floor/low ceiling does not bring in a larger playerbase. A high floor makes it so that it takes a long time to learn the basics, which is extremely bad as players won't stick around long enough for this to happen. If their first few games are a bad experience, they aren't going to bother. And a low ceiling means that if they do stick around, that's it. There's nothing more for them, they've learned the game. This is how CH is currently designed, and look at the large playerbase of... a 628 player 24h peak! Does that seem large and sustainable to you? Hell, I've stopped playing because I'm good enough at magi to completely roll the average team, and playing more isn't going to make me any better because nothing I do relies on my own skill. I can't practice anything. I can't improve with any of my abilities because they're all so one-dimensional. TCM also had this issue, but TCM was also designed as a game to be played for two weeks and then dropped, and the developers were surprised when people didn't do that.

If you want to bring in new players, you need a low skill floor: DBD does this wonderfully because all of its mechanics are simple to understand. Hold M1 on a gen. Press space when the things in the other thing. Hold W away from the bad guy. And yet it also has a high skill ceiling because the art of looping is such a complex and intricate mindgame of tactical management of resources that it takes tens of thousands of hours to master - look at killers like Blight and Huntress and Wesker who get ten times scarier when piloted by a GOOD player because they've invested the time to improve and the payoff is clearly visible. That's what keeps people engaged, and its what CH SEVERELY lacks.

native glade
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Well said Sammy

eternal rune
# celest mason A high floor/low ceiling does not bring in a larger playerbase. A high floor mak...

I do not think the idea of people keep playing the game because they feel like they can improve/learn more is that common. That is limited to only a portion of hardcore gamers. Those who I met that are interested in improving their skills are not asym games players, they are RTS/FPS or Moba players. If devs thinks CH can attract them...welp they can surely try
Skill floor and ceiling imo has nothing to do with bringing in new players. It affects whether new players are staying or not. Use DBD for example. They don't attract player by being easy or hard, but by having collab with big ips. Whether they stay or not is another issue.
The killers you mentioned are released after the game got a fan base already. Those who stick around and already know quite a bit about the game that they don't mind learning new things. Magician is the first killer of the game. Something easy to use would be better. I also mentioned later on you can have more complex killers but whether the game survives long depends on how things go after launch

celest mason
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I don't really think it matters what you think that's kind of an objective fact

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People continue to play a game when there is more to offer

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Chess is thousands of years old, never received an update, still played to this day because the skill ceiling is insanely high despite the skill floor being "know how each piece moves"

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And yeah, having new players stick around is important - no use in luring them in if they don't stay

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Hillbilly, Nurse, and Huntress, arguably some of the highest skill ceiling killers in the game, are all free for new players too, so your argument about Magi being stupid easy because he's first is dumb

acoustic sky
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so i have not read trough the 400+ massages but i do like the idea i think it will be pretty balanced with how long it takes to pull out/put away the hat

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maybe slight adjustments to walk speed while its active but it will 100% raise magi skill ceiling and make playing it fun again

thin spear
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It always becomes an argument of casuals vs competitive people.

acoustic sky
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yeah i mean its hard to say for me because i love learning new games and getting better but i 100% understand the idea of i just want to hop on and cruse through matches

lone orbit
thin spear
lone orbit
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its just verifiably false you can name basically any mainstream or popular game and they will have things you need to get better at over time or master that reward casuals for achieving and give reason to keep playing

acoustic sky
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the only game i could think of that doesn't really have much to get good at is like COD is just aim and movement but i also think COD is terrible so i might be biased

eternal rune
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None of what we think matters without stat. To use chess as example is not taking into consideration the lack of competition out there back when it was invented as well as its cultural influence creating an ongoing community. Not to mention the professional competition scene. Still that hardly matters to the success of CH at this point

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To call mainstream games having part players can get better and linking it to their success is calling correlation causality. I always propose there are other factors more important and the percentage of people who play game to better themselves is a minor part of player base and CH can't really compare to the most competitve games out there.

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I don't see much point going on with this conversation if people ends up only using partial information. DBD first player is trapper which I consider simple to use, Hillbilly has been remake multiple times and nurse is DLC character. I was talking about at launch and u talk about free character after the game launched for years. Such comparison is pointless

winter meteor
# celest mason A high floor/low ceiling does not bring in a larger playerbase. A high floor mak...

628 players for an Alpha! The game is ALPHA!
You argue saying that you need mechanics to become better at and that you need a new ceiling but improving game sense and awareness is also part of the ceiling BUT i dont see any of you aruing that.
You dont need more mechanics and more things to do as magi in order for the ceiling to increase. The very way you play magician is also a skill ceiling . That would be the same as me saying I dont need to play more chess and get better at it because I already know how all the pieces work and there is nothing new to do with them.
You as a player are ever evolving. No amount of new mechanics will help you understand the fundamentals of playing a game and getting better at playing it.

Everyone also keeps bringing up everything DBD has done right and wrong and what other Asyms have done right and wrong but CH is trying to do its own thing and experiment. The reason I say that is because wanting CH to be more similar to DBD or other syms is only going to make it so that new players will be more likely to say "Another DBD clone... Yay I guess..." Instead of saying "Wow, this game is pretty unique in its own way"

Also there is nothing wrong with having things be simple in practice. I dont undeerstand why its so bad for magician to be simple. You will get new killers down the line anyway, you want more skill expression and new mechanics? Im sure you will have a whole new character to master when a brand new killer drops.

People keep forgetting this is an Alpha, we are suppost to be experimenting with the gameplay, testing code, seeing if the simple things WORK before we let feature creep walk in. Features is something that the devs will focus on alot more when the core of the gameplay is well put together.

Everyone is worried about the players when this game isnt even close to being for sale.

lone orbit
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the total amount of players honestly doesnt matter

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the popularity of the game really isnt controllable at all

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but what is concerning is the ratio of players, and its been pretty awful since the very first test

coral mica
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How we went from a Hat Trick change ideas to a counting online players?

lone orbit
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it seems like its not so bad now that a big chunk of the new demo players are moving on to other stuff which i think is a good sign but magi still needs things to make him more appealing

celest mason
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or advertising

acoustic sky
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game popularity is 100% controllable why do you think cod thats done the same thing for like the past 10 years till makes money

lone orbit
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well i guess thats an exaggeration

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waht i mean to say is role ratio > total players

celest mason
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so fun fact I found another game recently

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far far west

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its a shooter

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pre alpha playtest

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INSANELY well polished, very fun

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like there are fully released games more buggy than it

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well thats all well and good they must have a big development team ITS MADE BY FOUR PEOPLE??

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your game being an alpha or a beta or early access isnt an excuse for being bad

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if people are getting bored of it after a week, thats worse

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if the devs are blatantly ignoring their biggest pain points for feedback, thats no bueno

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literally nobody fucking asked for 1v5