Jack is a Mixed Bag

[heavy moth]

I think Jack is really cool conceptually, but his current implementation leaves much to be desired. With how necessary some items can feel at times and how helpless bunnies can be without the right items, I think Jack's purpose should be the solution to RNG rather than adding an excessive layer on top of it. This would also make him much more appealing for newer players, who won't need to play multiple games to find and experience every item when they can just get them at Jack.

As such, I propose some changes:

1. Jack should not have RNG with the items you get. The shooting gallery in Center's first floor is also RNG, takes roughly the same amount of time, and is cheaper. Jack being so reliant on luck makes him redundant, with an exception I'll cover later. Bunnies should be able to purchase items directly with candy and a toolcan, as the current system is just frustrating - if I have high madness, I don't want to waste 12 candies and a toolcan to get a shock box instead. If you want to keep the "gambling" aspect, you could make it so you can "haggle" with Jack - if he asks for 10 candies for an item, you can put in 8 and have a 20% chance of not getting the item. Feeling lucky?
   (This would also allow the developers to more easily gather community sentiment about certain items - if a certain item isn't being bought as often, it might need changes.)

2. Oilers should not be acquired with Jack. I don't really need to explain this one. Oilers are the most powerful item in the game by far and are extremely obnoxious when stacked. If items are directly purchasable, no price would be fair for an Oiler. As such, I recommend its replaced with the Radar, to keep the 12-item balance - Radars are also a strong item, but more "vital" and less obnoxious when stacked. Being purchasable at Jack's would also give new players a reliable way of helping them figure out objectives.

3. Activating Jack should not make noise. He's not a main objective. He doesn't need it.

[lament scroll]

I would support the RNG aspect if Jack didn't also require a toolbox, but right now it's simply too many hoops to jump through. He is ultimately a trap that baits bunnies into hoarding useless candy more than he actually is a trader. It takes 4 inventory slots to have a chance at a high end item, and Oilers are really leagues above Shockboxes and Cuddlebunnies it's almost an insult:

• Make each tier = 5 candy
• Allow you to pick an item from the tier
• Rebalance the tiers:
  1: Lockpick, Mousetrap, Smoke Bomb
  2: Cuddlebun, Jinglebun, Shockbox
  3: Balloon, Trampoline
  4: Unicycle, Marbles
  5: Firework, Oil
• And for that much candy, I would either:
  • Remove toolboxes period, OR:
  • Make the candy throwing game grant a toolbox as a reward, instead of a random item.

[wintry phoenix]

based on the 9/29/25 playtest:
I think I also wrote something about this. It feels waaaaay too slow to use this guy for items.

3. Activating Jack should not make noise. He's not a main objective. He doesn't need it.
   @heavy moth

I can't really say if this needs to change. Since I rarely see people use the trader and have also used it barely at all. I would rather see the utility of jack increase first (so that he is ACTUALLY being used).

I would support the RNG aspect if Jack didn't also require a toolbox, but right now it's simply too many hoops to jump through.
@lament scroll

Bingo! I feel the exact same way and so did my friends I played with. Too convoluted, too much set up, finding candy, finding toolcan, going back, activating jack, then fiddeling with the UI to put everything in AND then pinging and waiting to get a random item that never seems to be what I want right now? Like that seems like a colossal time commitment for very little gain. I rather just scavenge around and find a lockpick and get everything I need from a chest haha.

I think it would be ok if the toolcans gave you a free spin (possibly with a smaller item pool of high value items?)
And other than that you can just feed it candy for a random chance (no toolcan needed), maybe with tiers, maybe without.
If this was the case the ping would also make sense, as someone can just keep collecting candy from corpses and throw it in to get some juicy items (potentially).

[lament scroll]

Does it ping when you get an item? I thought it only pinged when you first activate it. It's why I like to activate Jack early in the game, both to distract and to avoid forcing a bunny without charge to ping themselves and put themselves at risk.

[wintry phoenix]

no I think it pings when you use it too... but maybe someone else can confirm this?

[wintry phoenix]

You can 100% use the toolcan without a key, but can't be recharged without one... which I learned the hard way cause that seemed to be one of the useful things about him: you can't find a key and got thrown down but your energy is low, you can have him wind you up? NOPE you can only get wound up by him if you got a key haha

[lament scroll]

That's odd, I can get charge without a key, as long as I've activated him already.

I just need candy at that point.

[oblique crypt]

Yeah, I would rather get rid of the toolbox

[wintry phoenix]

nope, he still requires a key in your inventory afaik, I tried it before and 100% was not able to do it the text changes to 'you don't have a key' on a jack I actiavted earlier in that game myself

[oblique crypt]

Also! Can somebody test if chances to get an item from tiers the same?

[lament scroll]

No alpha.

[oblique crypt]

Cause I swear I've been trying to get an oiler but got 5 shock boxes in a row

[wintry phoenix]

well whatever they do - I think he definietly needs SOMETHING to make him worthwhile

[oblique crypt]

Also Jacks are on the first floor only

I really wish Candies had more value

Cause they are just garbage currently

Still love the throwing minigame for 5 candies. How is it called btw?

[heavy moth]

The shooting gallery?

[muted crystal]

i dont necessarily agree with oilers not being obtainable at jack

like as it is now then yeah for sure

but there could be a world where oiler sales at jack are limited to like 3 or 4, and you can ONLY get them from jack

as long as you cant indefinitely get them from him

[heavy moth]

even if oilers were limited to 3 thats still +3 lives towards whoever gets focused the most

[muted crystal]

at that point if its still problematic its an oilers issue and not a jack issue

[heavy moth]

its not a jack issue as it is because getting oilers from jack is tedious

considering you have a 33% chance of getting one from him for 12 candies

on average you're spending 19 candies and multiple toolcans

jack being an rng fiesta is actually balanced in that regard

if you reduce his rng he cant sell oilers

@open hawk You'd probably have an opinion on this too

[muted crystal]

when i said only get them from jack i meant they dont spawn anywhere else on the map ever in case that wasnt clear

[open hawk]

I personally do not like RNG mechanics, especially if involving a gamble of player life states. It makes each match wildly unfun for whatever side experienced the poor RNG (bunny if they dont get the oil, magician if the bunny gets drenched in it)

[muted crystal]

so you cant get a bunch of random oiler spawns and buy from jack, or randomly get a fuckton of oilers in general

[heavy moth]

I think if you removed the oilers from chests and made them only purchasable from jack it might be ok

idk I just don't like oiler as an item

undoing your mistakes is zzz

[muted crystal]

yeah i agree