A Time Limit Overhaul to Improve the Pacing of the game

[gloomy fern]

Problems

• Bunnies that are losing often get frustrated because they are in an unwinnable situation, but the time limit requires they continue to play for an extended period of time.
• The current dynamic encourages bunnies to “go-next” or disconnect if they feel they cannot win, because it is faster and more convenient than waiting out the timer or chasing down the magician to be killed.
• Magicians that are losing often give up on bunnies on the 4th floor and choose to focus on the bunnies that haven’t left, exacerbating this problem, while those bunnies are encouraged to avoid opening the gate in an attempt to give those bunnies more time.

Goals

• Introduce some elements to give bunnies pathways to incremental victories even in bad situations.
• Encourage players who are winning to aggressively trigger endgame scenarios.
• Reduce the amount of time players are required to play a losing game.

Solutions

• Timer nerf: The game now starts with a timer of 10 minutes instead of 30 minutes
  • The timer increases by 5 minutes each time any bunny reaches a new floor for the first time, up to 25 minutes
  • The timer decreases by 5 minutes each time the Magician kills a bunny.
• New Feature: The Puppetmaster will get bored and start a 5-minute endgame timer when one of the following conditions are met:
  • The original timer runs out
  • The exit gate is opened
• If the endgame timer was triggered because the original timer ran out, the Magician will receive the following buffs:
  • Infinite Charge, Bunny wallhacks, and instant kill powers (As if the Magician destroyed the Magic Hat)
  • Immunity to stuns from Fireworks or Marbles
  • All bunny holes become blocked and unusable
• If the endgame timer was triggered because the exit gate was opened, the Bunnies will receive the following buffs:
  • Infinite Charge
  • Aura reading on the Magician
  • All gear gates are opened and cannot be closed
  • All Ziplines and Ferris Wheels are permanently powered.
• At the end of the timer, any bunny who is hasn’t escaped or died is considered “tied” for the purposes of winning or losing.
• Removed: The Magic Hat is removed from the game.

Reasoning

• Bunnies and magicians are encouraged to reach their end game timer aggressively for all the boosts
• Losing teams only need to play out at most 5 extra minutes
• The timer dynamically adjusts to help keep tight games long and blowouts short
• Bunnies are encouraged to access new floors even when they are losing to take advantage of Panic to prolong chases.
• Bunnies on the 4th floor can more comfortably help friends in lower floors because they can reliably get back up with the extra power

Considerations

• The loot system for magician will have to be reworked to account for the new timeout design.
• Additional design updates should be considered to prevent the following griefing scenarios:
  • Bunnies on the 4th floor waiting until the last second to open the gates
  • The Magician throwing a bunny to a new floors to artificially extend the timer

[jaunty marsh]

agree with most ideas here but imo the time limit should increment by 3.5 minutes to a max of roughly 20 minutes

25 minutes long has already greatly overextended its welcome to me

[gloomy fern]

I chose these times so that at worst the full time limit of 30 minutes is maintained. Adding or removing time becomes a balance topic, and I want to focus on this being a topic to solve boring checkmate scenarios.

[jaunty marsh]

fair enough

[open narwhal]

Instead of 5 mins for a kill, how about 120sec when a bunny is killed, with 30sec when bunny caged? Get rid of the large jump in timer would be better for pacing imo
Also I still think hat is worth keeping around. The idea of going for the hat and be empowered or stay on top for magician, while going with other bunnies pushing top or stay behind and go for hat can both make very interesting gameplay decision.

Not a fan of tied, it rewards bunny to just run around in the end which is better than getting caught and loses.

[gloomy fern]

I only want to remove time from the timer for actions that cannot be undone. You can free a bunny from a cage, or even re-wind a bunny that loses charge. The purpose is not to put extra pressure on bunnies for an objective, the reduction of time is to recognize that, unless you have a large surplus of time available, losing a player is generally a death sentence.

[gloomy fern]

What would your recommendation be? You're 100% right that at the end of the game, a losing bunny team switches their goal from "Do objectives and climb" to "run and try to survive the onslaught."

At some level of defeat, the game itself should recognize that bunnies can't do the objective. Therefore, we should not be so adamant that the objectives are always the only goal.

That's how the hat came to be, but it's designed poorly and selfishly.

[open narwhal]

Well imo I think add pressure to both side is a good idea. Small time change makes little action feels rewarding and keep people going instead of one big punishing/rewarding thing that happens once in a while
I would even argue reduce more time when bunny is caged then add part of the time back to bunnies if someone saves them
This can be a powerful tool to encourage certain behaviour

[gloomy fern]

Aren't the bunnies already losing time by having one bunny not be able to play? Why do we need to lose time twice?

[open narwhal]

Thats why I think hat should stay, an endgame obj for bunnies to fight for. On top of that open option to just forfeit but not force it on people. Even in the final 2 min if you are on 4th with one gear inserted already there is still a chance. This judgement is better leave to those in game imo

[jaunty marsh]

bunnies dont fight for it at all though

[gloomy fern]

I'm of the design opinion that bunnies should never have to "fight" for something.

[jaunty marsh]

they either get there first or they dont

going up and down floors is a big war of attrition though

[open narwhal]

to reward magician putting bunnies in cage instead of just throwing, so they walk longer to the cage and takes more of magicians time. Also, giving time back rewards the bunny side and motivates teammate saving

[gloomy fern]

That's not really the purpose of this change. I believe Magicians are already rewarded enough for getting to a cage.

[open narwhal]

If possible, throwing to lowest level is actually a good option compared to walking to a cage now. The bunnies if done skill check great would limit time for magician to shake them and use card. To carry bunnies to a cae that is like 10 sec away is extra 10 sec other bunnies know they are absolutely safe. This imo is one dimensional. Will time changes in mind, you will see other bunnies prepare to save with rocket or other things before magician even get to a cage, and gives more safe time to bunnies side when magician walk to cages.

[gloomy fern]

That might just be a general problem with the cage design. I can see a world where the cages start open and you can "cage" a bunny by throwing them into one LOL.

In terms of time limit though, I can see something like -1 minute for cage and -2 minutes for running out of charge, but only if you get all of it back when you rescue. I don't want Magician to be able to "farm" time reduction by constantly caging and such.

[timber tiger]

Very interesting ideas leaving a message so I get updated on this post see what peeps say abt it

[open narwhal]

Time limit can be a great tool to solve many problems and balancing challenges.
I think RE Resistance is a good example

[cunning pawn]

I get the reasoning but this just destroys endgames doesn’t it ? There will be a lot of scenarios where you would lack 1-5 min to actually open gates or else , and it would ruin all your game with all those buffs the magician get and same for him, bunnies will be buffed even tho some might be in 1st/2nd floor trying to reach the doors , like there is a meaning for the magi to continue playing instead of just letting down and waiting for them to get out -
Idk maybe I don’t get the idea

[gloomy fern]

The idea is that, in a scenario where the game is effectively over, and the magician has won (bunnies ran out of time) or bunnies have won (bunnies opened the exit), the game does not force you to hobble around for 15 or more minutes. It gives the winning side a bunch of buffs, gives them 5 minutes as says, "Ok you've won, get on with it."

For Bunnies, surviving an OP magician for 5 minutes is one way to scrape a tie from the jaws of defeat, and for Magicians, keeping one bunny from making it to the exit for 5 minutes is one way to keep one last bunny in Purgatory.

It also encourages more active play and prevents aggressive stalling early game.

You can't afford to spend 10 minutes playing dead and farming items and then make a huge sudden push.

If you're worried that this will create more games where "Oh man I could've opened this gate if I had just one more minute", you're absolutely right it will create more games like that, but right now we already have games where "Oh man I could've made it to the exit if I had one more minute," except you wasted 29 minutes getting to that point instead of 14.

It is also totally intentional for bunnies that win to have a much easier time getting to the 4th floor, since the converse is true and Magician has a crazy easy time killing bunnies.

One thing I found a bit unfortunate was that when the Magician wins (barring the Hat), absolutely none of the bunnies essentially have absolutely no way to clutch a win. However even when the bunnies outmaneuver and get the door open quick, the magician still can usually keep at least one bunny from winning.

So the bunny/magician buffs work to make the game a little more one-sided in either direction when the game finally ends.

[cunning pawn]

Why not actually making tight, if you’ve already been 29 minutes into the game and loosing might as well get buffed like
time run out -> bunnies get buffed and actually have a chance to clutch
Doors open -> magi get buffed and have a chance of getting 1/2 bunnies before the escape
I’m gonna take dbd as example as they have a lot of endgame perks to make the endgame more entertaining for both sides and make the endgame tight for both

[gloomy fern]

DBD isn't the best example of it, because End Game perks work differently for both sides.

For surviors it's a Win More perk that helps you secure an escape once the gens are done.
For killers it's a last chance to get an EZ kill from a losing game.

But I understand your example, just reverse the buffs.

So if Mag wins on timeout you give Bunnies buffs, and then if they can't make it out in 5 minutes they lose.

And if bunnies win on gate, mag gets buffs and can instakill the stragglers.

[cunning pawn]

Yup that’s exactly what I’ve been thinking

[gloomy fern]

But I don't like that design, because:

• It will encourage bunnies to avoid opening the door.
• It will encourage bunnies nearing the endgame to wait for buffs and then rush.
• It exacerbates the problem of stragglers.

I would prefer bunnies more generally lose or win as a team.

Then encourage a situation where no matter what, the magician typically gets 1 or 2 kills.

For the bunnies that do die even in a winning game, the choice seems pretty arbitrary.

Like, I guess my team didn't wanna save me and just opened the door, now Magician gets an EZ kill and they get out.

I feel like that leads to more problems than it solves.

[cunning pawn]

That’s already the case , from my experience tho , once 1/2 bunnies opens that door there is not much they can do to help you as they had usually already used their items and don’t risk hoping on down floors to help the last bunnies so for me once the gate is open it just feels like everyone is by themselves ( again from my past games that what happened )

And they usually just get out , while you’re left alone

And that’s what this is about because now you’re stuck in an unwinable escape , and you juste have to wait 5 more min fake sleeping to atleast not loose mmr

[cunning pawn]

I think There is no point into avoiding opening the door if you can already escape but that depends on the buff they get , and same for magi maybe not insta kill but he gets another buff

[gloomy fern]

You'd avoid opening the door so your friend has a chance to get to the 4th floor with you and all escape together.

[gloomy fern]

Isn't that kinda boring? Wouldn't you rather get some buffs so you have a chance to rush for the door?

Instead of accepting your death?

[gloomy fern]

I'm bumping this because I really think this is an important change to consider, but also I was wondering if anyone had ideas for better triggers for the +5 minute timer than just a nebulous "entering new floor". I had thought of a few more concrete ways we can measure whether to consider a new floor reached:

• Jump on a powered zipline (You do NOT need to finish the ride)
• Start a roller coaster with at least one bunny inside (You do NOT need to finish the ride)
• Open a gear gate required to access the next floor
  • Specific gear boxes would be color-coded in gold to indicate that they count for this purpose, as some gates only unlock objectives on the same floor
  • You only need to crank the gear box long enough for it to make noise and let other bunnies through, you do NOT need to actually fully open it.
• Turn on a Ferris Wheel (You do NOT need to ride it)
• Start climbing a rope from the floor above (You do NOT need to finish climbing)
• Firing a Cannon with a bunny inside
  I think this would have some interesting side effects:
• The goals to extend the timer would be a lot more concrete and probably easier to program.
• This would provide a slight nerf to cannons since you cannot really fake them unless that floor's timer has been extended.
• This solves the earlier consideration where the magician could throw bunnies to higher floors to extend the timer, since that doesn't actually do anything unless the bunny does an objective on that floor like dropping a rope or advancing to the next floor.

This time extension would still only apply once per floor, going from 10 minutes to 25 minutes total at max extensions.

[fast swift]

How did we miss this? Lol
The game timer is an existing mechanic your doing a suggestion which should be in #1316893993727950962
Game ideas are for complete new ideas we can leave it but the devs won't see it as fast now

Their focus is #1316893993727950962 and the 5v1 mode atm now just that I mentioned this

Also just to add the pacing was changed so many time from 40 to 25 to 30 to 35 and so on. They tested it and the community decided together that 30 is okay so I highly doubt they will do any changes😅

[gloomy fern]

Ah I bumped this thread since it’s the one that had a lot of responses. I made a duplicate in #1316893993727950962 but it got buried lol.

And I don’t want to suggest that the overall time be changed, please note with the suggestion the maximum time is still 30 minutes. I just don’t think we need to have a full 30 minute game every time if for example the magician has been on point and no bunny has made it to the second floor in even 10 minutes.

[fast swift]

The devs really don't like duplicates so just bump your old post if you still can find it ofc. Feedbacks should be in their appropiate channels tho