#About balance and time (Last man standing situation and more)

226 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

shell ginkgo
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Problem is being in a unwinnable situation and still have to be forced to play.

When 2 or more bunnies die, specially at an early stage, there's simply no way to make it to the top in time, I initially suggested having more time every match, but that comes with its own problems, so, maybe make it so "the last one standing" gets some sort of buff to at least have a chance at doing something (example make it so some doors leading to the final floor open up automatically for the last bunny) or make it so you have an option to surrender, end the game early.

Magician would also get all their buffs once the "last man standing" situation happens, to make it fair.

Currently, if your team dies, you have no other option than waiting to get killed, and I like the game being hard, but not impossible, there should always be a chance even if slim to do something about your situation, or at least a way to end the game early.

Similar problem happens when the Bunny team is skilled, you reach the top too fast, Magician often rage-quits because they know there's nothing to do.

There's 2 ways this could go (and possibly more we're not seeing, open to any ideas)

-Buff the losing side until they have a fighting chance

-End the game ASAP so the “unwinnable” situation doesn’t last so long

Or just make a level-based matchmaking system so you get paired with people your level, reducing the chances of teammates dying too early or Bunnies winning too fast

dense peak
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It used to be 40 minutes long people say but it felt too long

green dome
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There are tools to escape grabs. Marbles and rockets. There are also at least 3 ways to get up. At higher level play, this issue is not present. Bunnies progress floors super fast if the Mag doesn't play almost perfect

cinder storm
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Sometimes if a bunny team is just terribly outmatched against a magician, it’s not worth trying to close the skill gap and it’s better to simply end that match soon so the bunnies can try the queue again and hopefully get a closer opponent.

shell ginkgo
# green dome There are tools to escape grabs. Marbles and rockets. There are also at least 3 ...

I know this, I was referring to a tool to use by yourself to escape grabs, akin to Friday the 13th, maybe remove this tool in higher lvl games, or maybe it was a bad idea, I like that you have to rely on teammates but right now there's a lot of new ppl playing that are super lost and you end up with 2 teammates dead within the first 5mins, so you have to duo the whole thing or maybe even solo it if the hat gets destroyed

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I know its only a low lvl skill issue but Im thinking of when the game finally releases, you prob want noobies to have fun and not quit day 1 because they just dont understand game gets better

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But then at higher lvl you get the opposite issue, bunnies get to the top way too fast

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its a complicated matter for sure

green dome
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The ceiling between low level and high level definitely needs to be decreased so they are closer together. I feel like some sort of features that guides the newer players would be a good way to go - that way they aren't running around aimlessly

dusk wagon
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I find 30 mins to be a bit long already. Couldnt imagine going back to 40 mins

shell ginkgo
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I just feel that, if anything, you should have more resources to be able to win the game once a couple teammates get killed, because right now when teammates start dropping its like "okay ggs kill me now spare me the burden" and it just doesnt fully feel right, I dont know how this could be fixed and would love to hear everyone's ideas on it

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I get that the hat is kind of a fix to this but still only allows 1 player to escape so if you end up solo on a early stage its very difficult to make it to the top in time

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so you just kinda have to get killed

cinder storm
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It’s an anti-snowball measure.

shell ginkgo
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I just wonder if it will be a turn off for new players is all, I know a skilled team fixes this and a skilled team against a skilled hunter is always interesting but Im thinking about new players here, and we do want those, because if they get frustrated the first 3-4 matches they prob just wont bother with the game

cinder storm
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Once it’s clear one side has won, you either give the losing side a boost, or you act to end the game ASAP. Either reduce the frustration of futility, or make that futility last as short as possible.

shell ginkgo
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The only idea I have so far is: Once there's 1 bunny left, and hat is destroyed/has been used, automatically open up all doors (not the exit one tho), that way you have a final "showdown" of sorts with the magician at the upper floor

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Kind of like DBD does it

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I dont remember exactly the mechanic because I havent played DBD in ages but there was like some extra exits once it was clear the killer was winning

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Same thing goes with the killer I guess, if the bunnies get to the upper floor super quick there should be some mechanic to slow em down

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Or maybe its good as it is, and its supposed to be challenging until you get the hang of it on either side, but for new people, there could be a "casual" mode or something that had these sort of implementations and then once you hit a certain lvl you play on "ranked" mode

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So it makes learning the game fun instead of frustrating

sonic dust
# shell ginkgo I dont remember exactly the mechanic because I havent played DBD in ages but the...

This has since been removed, mainly because unlike the exit gates the hatch could be instantly opened and 3 people could escape with no warning

The hat as it stands is just a means to end the game ASAP - wallhacks and infinite charge (meaning you can be invisible permanently) are purposefully uncounterable just to get the game over with - It's not really intended to be "fair." The bunnies lost, and instead of waiting another 5 minutes, heres a way to end it now.

I also think with how the MMR system is set up, the hat kind of serves no purpose. Should a Magician be penalized if a bunny escapes through the hat because they found it within the first 10 seconds? Should the bunny's MMR raise as if they escaped normally when they use the hat?

I strongly dislike the hat as a mechanic. I'd rather they just add a surrender button, so if every alive bunny agrees, can just end the game and move onto another one, treating it as a bunny loss. The hat as it stands is a stopgap solution, and when a game becomes pretty much unwinnable for the bunnies (1-2 dead before making it to the last floor, tons of ticketmen activated, etc), I don't want to have to stand around for another 20 minutes.

shell ginkgo
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But if there was a mechanic that could improve the experience when the odds on either team are looking impossible I think I would prefer that

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Ofc I dont know what that could be that's why I initially suggested more time but from what Im reading that's not ideal either

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I like the game being hard, not impossible

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I like that it focuses on teamwork, but when your team is dead, is surrender the only option? There should be more

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Id like to think "Okay, Im fked, Im the last one alive, but I can still do this" instead of "Oh my team is dead ggs lets get this over with kill me now"

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Opening some doors leading up to the final floor when being the last one standing instead of the hat could be a good idea, that way if your teammates are dead you can just skip right to the final showdown with the magician, only the both of you, you need to find 2 gears, open the exit, be sneaky. It will be hard, but not fully impossible

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Maybe not all doors so you still have to run around a bit and find the ones open but at least give us something, so that we can still fight for winning instead of giving up when 2 or more die

cinder storm
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Personally, I would probably handle the time limit kinda like this:

  • Timer starts at 10 minutes, not 30.
  • Bunnies add 5 minutes to the timer whenever they enter a new floor for the first time, up to 25 total minutes.
  • When the timer runs out, we enter a new “endgame” timer of 5 minutes:
    • magician gets all their buffs, wall hacks instakill and infinite charge
    • the hat spawns for the bunnies
    • bunnies can still “tie” the game if they either escape through the hat (one bunny only) or if they survive the last 5 minutes.
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Make it so that when a bunny ties… I’d probably give them only one loot item and half the XP. Make the loot item random between the rarest loot they’re carrying.

shell ginkgo
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Like, I wanna enjoy the game, be sneaky, play dead, all those cool things it has going for it, not look at the time left every 10 seconds and panic

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bunnies can still “tie” the game if they either escape through the hat (one bunny only) or if they survive the last 5 minutes. This would also be an interesting idea for the last man standing situation, just survive 5mins and get a "tie". But then I feel like everyone would just play dead for 5mins and make it super boring for both teams

cinder storm
shell ginkgo
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And to counter this make the Magician get all their buffs like you mentioned aswell

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So its a 1v1 "fair" fight

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or at least less frustrating fight

cinder storm
shell ginkgo
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It cant be a sneaky game "Play dead", "Dont run" and have all these mechanics that are screaming "be slow about it or the magician will hear" and then give you a time race in top of that so you cant utilize any of it, imo.

shell ginkgo
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The whole issue for me is that once you are the last bunny standing you pretty much have to surrender

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and that either your teammates know exactly what to do from the start or you are unlikely to make it in time to the last floor even if not all of em die

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So you either play with skilled players, or you are pretty much playing in vain, Im just wondering if there could be more to this, more options

cinder storm
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I would just specify that being the last bunny in a scenario is much different than just running out of time, so they will need different solutions.

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Maybe the end game timer can be based on bunnies left. I.e 5 minute timer minus 1 minute for every bunny already dead.

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So if you’re the last bunny, you just need to survive the remaining timer, plus 2 minutes of rage.

shell ginkgo
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Yeah I thought the issue was time constraints but then with all the debating Im seeing other options and issues. I guess what I really meant to say with this post is I dont like "impossible" scenarios, there should always be an option to do something, even if your team wipes

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Maybe with more time, maybe with a boost to last one standing, idk

cinder storm
shell ginkgo
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Exactly

cinder storm
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However, I would say there’s two options:

  • Buff the losing side until they have a fighting chance (your idea)
  • End the game ASAP so the “unwinnable” situation doesn’t last so long (my idea)
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Like Chess has a similar problem where you can be in an unwinnable situation. But it’s not a problem there, you just knock over your king.

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Imagine Chess but you couldn’t resign. Yikes LOL.

shell ginkgo
shell ginkgo
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I changed the description to match this

sonic dust
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hat or no hat

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I do like the idea of the timer starting small and extending per floor accessed, but the timer is obscured from the bunnies and magicians could use the information to know when a bunny reaches a floor for the first time, completely erasing the distraction value of objectives like coaster and cannon

shell ginkgo
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Unless the time doesnt get updated for the killer until the bunnies make a noise (ex: opening a door) but that could also have its issues

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Because you shouldnt have to be so focused on time and what it means or doesnt mean

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I updated the original post with some ideas (that I gathered here) that I think could solve the whole thing, lemme know your thoughts on it and thanks for reading! I will be leaving it here for today ty to everyone who replied!

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I yapped enough lol, will check the post tmr

cinder storm
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Like here’s the thing; we gotta recognize that at some point, completing the objective is impossible for the bunny. Like if they’re at the 1st floor with only 6 minutes left or they’re the last bunny alive with no progress on the 4th floor. If we want to also enforce that “stalling” is also equal to dying, then the optimal move for the bunny is to kill themselves to go to the next game faster.

Thats simply bad design.

night tiger
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Please keep in mind, that any buff to the last survivor standing incentivizes selling out your team mates as soon as the situation looks bad, hide and hoping they die, so you become the last one so you can get a cheap escape, while your team mate tries the same and hopes you die. I think last survivor standing buffs are really toxic and anti-team. It turns 2 vs 1 into 1 vs 1 vs 1.

cinder storm
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My suggestion for the magician buff + granting a tie on timeout instead of a loss is not a buff to the solo bunny in any way.

night tiger
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Its like Squid Game xD hope the others die for the prize money.

cinder storm
night tiger
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Timeout being a win encourages extreme hiding and not pushing objectives for 30mins. Bunnys definetly dont and shouldnt win on a timeout.

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Timeout being a killer win is important to create pressure to do the objectives.

cinder storm
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Keep in mind with my suggestion the timer would only last 15 minutes, and the magician would have infinite wall hacks and insta kill for the last 5 minutes. I am sure the balance can be set up such that on average your odds are better trying to actually play the game.

sonic dust
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Hat shouldn't exist

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The wallhacks and instakill it provides the magician is a stopgap to make games end faster

night tiger
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Ive been suggesting many times to remove the hat and impliment a surrender vote.

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So bunnys can simply surrender and go to the next game, without wasting any time.

sonic dust
night tiger
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You win as a team or lose (surrender) as a team.

sonic dust
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  • EVERY alive bunny has to agree
  • shouldnt be possible in the first 10m
night tiger
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Theres no "but the last guy..."

cinder storm
sonic dust
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and then yes, I would like a surrender option instead of the hat

night tiger
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and only enable it during the last 5mins.

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And then remove the hat.

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problem solved.

cinder storm
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Most bunnies would rather get themselves killed than wait 25 minutes to surrender

sonic dust
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you could even keep the hat as a side objective, like a totem or chest in DBD. like if you find it, you get a full charge or something.

night tiger
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that guy is just weird then

cinder storm
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In a 30 minute game the surrender option would be available no later than 10 minutes in.

night tiger
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10mins is also fine, idc

cinder storm
night tiger
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thats ok too

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no problem there

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players give up individually and in their own way anyway

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the entire hat mechanic is just thinking that asymms needs this hatch crap, because DBD has it - and even in DBD it a dumb mechanic.

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Im back to playing

cinder storm
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Yeah that’s the ultimate problem to solve. “I gave up winning this game and have no investment in it, so any additional time I’m spent being forced to play it is by default going to be registered as a negative play experience.”

The hat is the first solution I mentioned. Give the losing side a buff so they have a fighting chance.

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Surrender option is the second solution, just end the game with no fluff.

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They both do the same thing: minimize frustration.

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Your concern with hat is that it encourages selfish play and 1v1v1v1v1 scenarios, my concern with surrender option is that it will foster resentment when one bunny wants to surrender, and the other bunnies don’t.

celest olive
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If you make the game longer, you increase the required amount of time you have to commit to play. As is, I can usually only get 2 or 3 games in after work before I have to do stuff

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If I can only play one, I'd probably just ditch the game and go back to tf2

proper magnet
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the game should be shorter, not longer. Hopefully with adding 5 v 1 and the 'listening' ability the matches will be more dynamic

sonic dust
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Agreed with the two above, and the current pace of gameplay means it basically cant be cut short

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It's a hard 30 minutes pretty much every time

edgy bloom
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IMO most discussion here might be pointless if the game shifts to 1v5, new balance, time constraints and more things for magician to manage at the same time
Though I would like to say cutting game timer short and give bunny more time everytime they reach higher level is a good idea, maybe take away their time whenever they lose 1 bunny?

shell ginkgo
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And you can still have the "buff" (if you wanna call it that) that I suggested, las bunny standing: some doors leading up to the final room (not all of em) open up automatically. Magician can still close them, you still have to place 2 gears in the exit door, but at least you have a chance at winning if you play your cards right

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Be fast, get up before Magician finds out what doors are open, sneak past him (maybe while he's still looking for doors to close), get the gears, utilize your distracting/offensive tools, escape

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Or just have the option to surrender as well if you dont wanna bother with it

glass root
shell ginkgo
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You get to keep your inventory (maybe you looted some good stuff for crafting), you get some xp (not what you would get with a 4 bunny extraction but still) and you feel like a god for managing to escape in such a difficult situation when most odds are against you

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Its hard, requieres a lot of skill, but its doable

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You dont have to feel like there's nothing you can do but surrender, you have a slim chance of escaping, and I think that would feel better than making it impossible to win for the last bunny

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People like fighting not surrendering, skilled players will want to show off, "troll" the magician if you will, escape against all odds, maybe not every player will want to bother with it so also include a "surrender" option but its way better than knowing there's nothing you can do to win at all

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And yeah remove the hat

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No point in the hat

edgy bloom
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Imo the game should not balance around casual bunnies
Also with the upcoming 1v5 I can see this being balanced

shell ginkgo
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Because that doesnt sound so fun

glass root
shell ginkgo
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DBD survived all these years because it requieres skill but is immediatly accesible to anyone playing

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I say if its not broken dont fix it

edgy bloom
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The hat brings interesting decision making in the end
Whether the magician goes down, get the hat and be empowered or stay to and defend while one managed to escape
And for bunnies, whethere keep pushing with the team or abandon ship everyone for themselves

shell ginkgo
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fair point

edgy bloom
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Lol balance around top competitive scene
Still got loads of casual. Same goes for other pvp games like marvel rival, sc2 Street fighter
Dbd balance around casual
Dbd comp is a joke, has one of the most toxic community when people hate on other players and complain everyday
Also if things are done like dbd this will be bad for the game to standout and differentiate

shell ginkgo
shell ginkgo
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You can however add a "ranked" mode for high lvl players

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Like pretty much every other competitive game not just DBD

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And I agree DBD community can be toxic but it doesnt remove the fact that because of how balance is made, at the time of writing this it still has 62,482players online according to steam charts

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I doubt every 62,482 of em are toxic, most tryhards probably are but 70% of people are most likely casual players just having some fun

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and most importantly keeping the game alive

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I apologice in advance if the term "tryhard" is offensive or something, thats just how we called really skilled players in Mordhau (and I was one of em), idk if there's a better term

edgy bloom
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Right... and League has 30million active player everyday
There are lots of games catering casual players, few years ago there was fall guy, newer and more recent one like Lethal company, Repo
They stop being relevant after a while. Good for a studio to make a game, keep it around for a while and move on but I hope this game is long term.
Casual players can't keep the game alive. They are not dedicated and won't stick around as long. Even if you balance the game around top players I am sure there will still be casual who buy the game for a bit just because of the asthetics
It is about how to make games fun for new players while keep the balance at the top
Example, have some options that will get shit on at the very top level which for new players, would be fun to use/go against until they reach a level such mechanism/item/"tech" no longer works

shell ginkgo
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League, Lethal Company, Repo, all of those are successful games with a massive audience

edgy bloom
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I would not want to tell the dev how to run the company so it is their choice in the end. The question is, why play this and not stick with dbd which people invested quite a bit over the year already if they are the same? At this point the more that's different with your direct competitors, the better. You can always change your way later. This is not even early access anyways

shell ginkgo
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Fall guys was more of a streamer game and those eventually die but the rest you mentioned prob will be around for many years to come

shell ginkgo
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Im having a hard time understanding your point here

edgy bloom
shell ginkgo
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Game can stand out and still be accessible is all Im tryna say

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in fact most games that stand out are because they are accessible to a wide range of audience

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niche games tend to stay low on players for years till they die

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The game is already original and fun, but it could do more in terms of balancing so you dont get into unwinnable scenarios that are frustrating (example being the last bunny standing)

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Every game of this category has workarounds for that

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You never feel like you have to quit the match just because you're the last one alive

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It feels harder, yeah, scarier, def! But not impossible

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That doesnt mean you have to make the game x10 times easier just in case you end up in that scenario of being the last one standing

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But add a option to still be able to win the game somehow is not a crazy idea imo

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better than not being able to do anything and quit

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Would you rather end up the last one standing and either have to wait the remaining time of the match knowing there's no way you can win waiting to die or just surrender or would you prefer having a chance at winning that feels hard and rewarding (ex: Some doors leading to final floor automatically open up for you)

edgy bloom
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I got a feeling we are drifting apart in what we talking about.
You are heading to psychology aspect of the games' player, which I believe won't come to any meaningful conclusion without researching player base in a more stable build to understand who is playing this game. Thus I won't comment on that regarding the general player atm
Personally, I think that "you can't do anything u failed" period serves as a motivation to not end in that situation. and I would like to see the game put more pressure on both side.
And I think following how DBD does things is bad for the game. Thats all

edgy bloom
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If things open when there is one bunny left. People would start acting passive with 2 player left

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So the games would end more in either bunny wipe or magician wipe

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Instead of a close one

shell ginkgo
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No because you only get 1/4 of the experience if you escape. Remember I paired this mechanic with xp, every bunny that dies you lose xp

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so if you escape being the last one you only get 1/4

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you are incentivized to keep everyone alive

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but if you end up in that situation you still have options

edgy bloom
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xp does not feel that impactful atm
at least that's not something I consider when playing
Also it still brings the issue of 2 bunny left, sandbag another

shell ginkgo
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I agree with that

edgy bloom
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as I said, without comprehensive understanding of players of this game, our discussion won't come to a useful conclusion.
lET'S wait and see.

shell ginkgo
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DBD, Friday 13th, etc

edgy bloom
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I consider this a chance for us and dev to understand potential player expectations
I would say people in the test are more likely to buy the games.
Also people can totally come from other not so similar games. Thus I would say we express what we think, then wait and see.
happy chatting I need to queue

shell ginkgo
cinder storm
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Hey I want to jump in and say since the topic here changes a lot, it’s sometimes better to make a new topic and continue the discussion there, because we really aren’t talking about whether games should be longer or not.

edgy bloom
cinder storm
shell ginkgo
glass root
cinder storm
glass root
cinder storm
edgy bloom
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I would imagine queue time is a big issue.
Also if we just flat extend the game, it being too long drives the queue number more crazy and imo, push more people away from the game than the whole balance thing

shell ginkgo
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I guess it really depends on your teammates, if they know what to do and the Magician is not very good, you can end a match in 10mins, however if your team is not skilled and dies within the first 5-10mins and you end up being the last one standing, the game feels like it takes forever to reach the top and even then by the time you reach it you're out of time and it was all for nothing

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So my fear is you'll get a lot of bunny players that are new to the game frustrated when the game launches and will end up quitting, and those who stay and become good will just speedrun games and make it frustrating for the Magician

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Had both scenarios happen to me a couple of times now and it only ends up with ppl quitting the game early because they know there's nothing to do

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Im guessing with more hunters to spice things up and the 1v5 gamemode with the new mechanics maybe could solve some of this issues but we'll have to wait and see

cinder storm
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I want the same for bunnies, if the magician is leagues above us then just kill me don’t make me wait even longer to lose.

shell ginkgo
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Yeah thats fair

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I can understand that viewpoint Im just wondering if something else could be done so its not so black and white

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Matching people by their levels could work, so you get a fair opponent according to your lvl and skills

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I just had 2 games, one of em the bunnies were skilled so we reach the top in the first 15mins opening up the exit door and everything, magician rage quits. Now I just had another one where we had 2 new players as bunnies, Magician won the game withing the first 10-15mins and as last bunny standing it started playing with me throwing me around till eventually killing me, making the game extra long in a already unwinnable scenario

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Now I took that good found it fun, that he didnt kill me right away, but if this experience is gonna become the norm then I dont know if its the right way to balance the game

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you either win too fast or end up in a unwinnable situation just as fast

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Thats one of the reasons Im excited for 1v5, could solve some of this

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but Im not 100% sure

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I get that with a skilled bunny team and skilled Magician this doesnt happen so maybe pair people according to their lvl

cinder storm
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Yeah matchmaking can’t solve everything. We gotta accept that sometimes we’ll match up against someone way above or below our skill level.

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It’s honestly better that way too.

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We don’t want StarCraft 2 to happen again, do you know that phenomenon?

shell ginkgo
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Maybe its good as it is

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I will keep the post up but I updated the description once more and wish I could update the header

cinder storm
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No shame in making a new topic if your feedback has changed!

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I might make a suggestion thread with my proposal for the shorter time limit.

shell ginkgo
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That sounds good mate go for it

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I think I will leave the discussion here not to overflow this post with comments (it already is a bit)

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About balance and time

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Oh I can change the header nice

wanton arch
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whoever said the time limit should be lower to begin with but the time increases for each objective completed hit the nail on the head imo

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ideally the game should be in a state where a time limit isnt necessary but until that point i think thats the best compromise

shell ginkgo
wanton arch
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definitely could be ways around that

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we'll have to see what listening does in the closed beta but if that doesnt have an effect on last man standing then slow passive charge drain would add a more natural time limit to those situations

shell ginkgo
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About balance and time (Last man standing situation and more)