Suggestion: An overly verbose examination of "wobbly rockets" and joint simulations

[coarse hound]

The full version of this is on the forum https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/topic/218238-suggestion-an-overly-verbose-examination-of-wobbly-rockets-and-joint-simulations/

In summary:

• I understand that both the dev team and community are unsatisfied with the state of flexible joint simulation in KSP2 and wish to improve them.
• I acknowledge that "wobbly rockets" have benefits that the development team are still interested in preserving, but I will argue that many of these benefits are compromised in many ways, and lead to much unexpected behaviour which adds unnecessary friction especially to new players.
• I believe that the game can move away from bendy joints while still retaining much of the spirit of the game (i.e. explodey rockets) while improving the game for both experienced and inexperienced players.
• I propose a possible system whereby the game emulates static joint analysis/simulation a la mechanical engineering, which should be more performant, more intuitive to players, easier to program and tweak and expand upon, and provide new opportunities in gameplay tone and educational potential.
• I also propose how this new system can utilise an animation and sound interpolation system to energise the game's overall ambiance and give better feedback to players on the state of their craft in flight.

[wide coyote]

Interesting

[timber scaffold]

Hmmm
Now the stress thing is quite interesting, as small decouplers have no place with huge boosters-

Or well
I think I just misunderstood yes
But yes, very nice-

In my opinion, small decouplers holding huge boosters should just break even with added struts, unless they add a million but-
Just opt for better decouplers-
More stress capacity that way
Hm

But for the first image... I think I kinda understand-
If the rocket angle is too far from the prograde marker, it tips over and due to massive drags explodes in a very cool way..

Love this idea-
Good work-

[azure viper]

the overstressing feature should also be for planes

[exotic badge]

This is amazing!

@strange narwhal I usually don’t ping staff while they’re not active but this spring boards of the previous thread and is possibly the best write down about the issues the community has.

Just want to make sure it doesn’t get burried by chance.

Again apologies for pinging

[rare grove]

Do you have any video of what you describe in the first image?

[timber scaffold]

The first rocket in the EA launch cinematic, or that thing, put in the forum post:

Somewhat

It starts by tilting off prograde, and then the aerodynamic forces absolutely shred the rocket apart once it flips

[timber scaffold]

This basically seems like a tutorial on how to slay the kraken for good

[rare grove]

Cinematics aren't the same as gameplay. I'm looking for an actual gameplay video

[timber scaffold]

This is only a concept, we don't have any gamedev footage

Can't go that far-
It's a suggestion

[rare grove]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1126391912522321930/1126391912895610990/wobbly_rockets_1.jpg

I'm looking for video of this

[timber scaffold]

There's none but the cinematic EA launch trailer-

Especially the first rocket

[azure viper]

well, you can install Ferram Aerospace Research in ksp 1 and it changes the aerodynamics to be more realistic, and it also includes the fact that it seperates when it overstresses

but like, there's no other video, so that is probably something you can get if you do have ksp 1

[rare grove]

So despite Kavaeric saying that this (in the image here) is a problem that many players have experienced, there is no video of it?

[coarse hound]

I don't go around recording people's discord streams, no

[azure viper]

personally i didnt experience this seperating in stock

[timber scaffold]

It doesn't exist besides that mod installed I think?
I've never seen it unfortunately

[timber scaffold]

And yeah, it doesn't-

[rare grove]

Dude, you need to read the text in the image I am referencing before responding. The text clearly states that this (as shown in the image) is a problem Kav has seen new players experience in stock KSP 2

[coarse hound]

I never said it was a thing in ksp 2

[timber scaffold]

a

[azure viper]

im pretty sure he meant how it would look like if that idea was implemented

[timber scaffold]

Yeaaaaa

[rare grove]

If it doesn't happen in KSP 2, why are you making a post about how it's an issue in KSP 2?

[timber scaffold]

It's a suggestion-

Not an issue-

[coarse hound]

because it's a suggestion based off of experiences in ksp1

[azure viper]

its a suggestion but okay

since you said it its now an issue for all players in KSP 2

[timber scaffold]

I'd quite like it to

Way cooler than wet noodle

[rare grove]

The way this is worded strongly implies it is an issue in KSP 2. Does the "cascading instability" referenced in the forum post occur in KSP 2 or not?

[timber scaffold]

I guess it's just not worded like "if this, it would"
But no, nothing in here is in the game, hopefully just for now

[coarse hound]

did you read the forum post or are you going off of this post alone

[timber scaffold]

Right..

[rare grove]

" In my time helping new players on various servers and communities, one of the biggest sources of difficulty for getting into orbit for the first time is wobbly rockets, and not in the ways more experienced players playing modded or tweaked versions of the game might expect. I've seen it happen many times where a new player in a Discord call has designed a rocket that seems perfectly capable of flying straight and stable, but the small deflections caused by springy joints can lead to a cascading instability. The most common example in my experience helping new players is when micro-oscillations suddenly compound into an unrecoverable situation:"

Emphasis mine. Can you recreate this issue in KSP 2 and share a video of it?

[timber scaffold]

That's just wobble

[azure viper]

wobbly rockets wobble like a noodle, this is a suggestion to add overstressing

[timber scaffold]

Seen everywhere in the game as of now-

[ivory jungle]

You're right chilly we need to keep the wobble the way it is now forever

[azure viper]

this is a SUGGESTION, not a bug report.

[rare grove]

Oh my god, read the forum post

[azure viper]

have you read the forum post?

[ivory jungle]

Wait @rare grove you work at a beamer store?

[timber scaffold]

The thing you just described here is wobbly rockets, which this suggestion is aiming to fix

[azure viper]

bro tryna doxx him💀

[rare grove]

Not what I am saying. Kav says wobble is an issue that leads to vehicle loss. While I find it annoying, I have never personally seen it lead to vehicle loss. All I'm asking for is a video of wobble leading to vehicle loss in the way Kav described in his post. Why is that so hard?

[azure viper]

bro, literally all wobble lead to vehicle loss in my experience

[coarse hound]

you seem to be assuming that when I'm taking about "helping new players" I'm talking about ksp2, when in the post I explicitly mention this is all based on experiences of ksp1

[ivory jungle]

No it's just the amount of projection

[rare grove]

Great! Can you record a video of it and share it?

[ivory jungle]

Yes

[timber scaffold]

https://youtu.be/IpK_jGTJG3k

[ivory jungle]

Can you?

[timber scaffold]

You can look at this if you really want to

Just skip to the KSP2 footage bits

[rare grove]

Having never experienced it, no

[azure viper]

without autostrut or struts at all?

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/z5fXdwt5rsw this is a video i found that had a rocket get destroyed because of wobbly rockets, just ignore the crappy AI voice

[rare grove]

I've literally never had wobble lead to a vehicle loss in either game. I've had plenty of wobble, which is annoying and costs fuel and makes my control surfaces freak out, but it's never led to a vehicle loss for me. And the only time I've used struts in KSP 2 was back when wing attachment was terrible and kept failing prior to launch.

[azure viper]

well, 1 person having no vehicle loss during wobble is less than the other thousands that did have that happen, so its just better to have this feature

[rare grove]

I know that I'm just one person. That's why I asked for someone to share video of it. What about this are you not understanding?

[azure viper]

i already shared a video

[rare grove]

After what? Half an hour of me asking? Next time just jump straight to sharing the video instead.

[azure viper]

surprisingly there arent many videos showing failures with wobbly rockets

[coarse hound]

if they think we're making up the problem then I don't think I'm really willing to spend the energy to convince them otherwise tbh

[rare grove]

My guy, I never said anything of the sort. I literally just asked for a video of vehicle loss from wobble happening and everyone here freaked out

[coarse hound]

I said I didn't have one lol

[rare grove]

And can't recreate one?

[azure viper]

well you asked for a video, and not specifically gameplay footage

[coarse hound]

I probably can

[azure viper]

but i think you should of already known that people did not want wobbly rockets because we mention it literally everywhere in this server

[coarse hound]

but honestly meh

I have other things to do rn + the other forum posters appear to have experienced this too

I ain't being paid for this lol

[rare grove]

Neat. I don't want wobbly rockets either. And I didn't ask for wobbly rockets or suggest that they should stay. I asked for a video of wobble leading to vehicle loss in the way Kavaeric described in the first picture on his post.

Incidentally, the video you shared doesn't really show a vehicle loss in the way Kavaeric described in his first image

[azure viper]

yeah, because its not stock. he is saying wobble should be replaced with that kind of vehicle loss.

i honestly dont care about this anymore, you literally just drained the entire fun from this suggestion, have a good day.

[rare grove]

From his forum post:
" I've seen it happen many times where a new player in a Discord call has designed a rocket that seems perfectly capable of flying straight and stable, but the small deflections caused by springy joints can lead to a cascading instability."

Tell me again what he is saying.

[timber scaffold]

Anyway we've flooded this thread with worthless rambling
Could we go back to the point
Stress is superior to bend in terms of realism, and, with it, people are happier as there is no more wobbling

[azure viper]

exactly

[timber scaffold]

Whilst this rigid rocket concept feels a little bland and solid like simple rockets 2, it achieves what we wanted.
Slaying the Kraken.

It's all that we've asked

[azure viper]

yes, it gets rid of wobble and makes the game more realistic

it would be more fun to have the rocket just explode into pieces when you overstress it

[timber scaffold]

Yipee
Plus, it comes with brand new mechanic!

[azure viper]

and not have it flip and wobble, like bro i want to control my rocket

[timber scaffold]

To experiment with, and brand new challenges to face

And... This finally means that space stations will work.

[azure viper]

yes

we dont need a band-aid solution, we need a SOLUTION for wobbly rockets, and this is the solution

[timber scaffold]

Now, this goes kind of against Nate's saying "The game won't be easier"
Well, yeah, it'll still be rocket science.. It'll be different though.

[timber scaffold]

Exactly.. Adding more attachment points is just a band aid solution too in a way

[rare grove]

Agreed

[cunning talon]

linking this for reference
https://discord.com/channels/1039959585949237268/1125099731949985803

[timber scaffold]

https://youtu.be/PK_yguLapgA

This is also a pretty close visualization of the first image

[coarse hound]

chatted with @frank sail and went and made a bit of an explainer on how I'd think struts could work for this model of part joints

[ember harness]

Great idea! I skimmed the forum post. I like the aero breakup since it gives a danger to max-q that wasn't present beforehand

Is there a way to upvote forum posts? I'll def upvote this if I can

[timber scaffold]

You can like them with the thumbs up on the bottom right-

[frank sail]

here u go #🔷ksp2_general message

[rare grove]

That's also a vehicle that should fail so it's not a great example

[regal sapphire]

The main problem is the connections. Let me illustrate beutifully with the most professional program ever. This is a rocket that is wobbly. When the rocket wobbles there is a exposed part that drags near the bottom of the craft, but only on one side. This causes a lot of instability

[timber scaffold]

Well- Yes- But the suggestion implies this would not happen at all-

No wobble with that system

[cunning talon]

And pinning this too
https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/topic/213845-wobbly-rockets/

[ivory jungle]

should imo be a way to also view this without colour as the only indicator

[coarse hound]

Should be yeah. That would be a UI design problem down the line though

[timber scaffold]

For an overlay I'd think blue to red stress levels should be shown by just highlighting the parts in the color-

[ivory jungle]

yee, I'm sure you're aware already but it's never a good idea to rely on only colour for UI design

[timber scaffold]

Oh, yeah, right... Colorblind people exist, and I keep forgetting about that part
Obviously though, a rectangle displaying "56%" on every single part on the craft would be unbearable-

[ember harness]

Colorblindness is generally only blue/yellow or red/green (most common) so blue to red is fine

[timber scaffold]

I guess, but ah, never know

It may be most common but there could still be other cases right?

Best to be accessible for everyone-

[ember harness]

then you can solve the issue by using brightness instead of color

almost everybody can agree that one shade of a color is darker/lighter than another

[timber scaffold]

True...

[ivory jungle]

yeah but not with a form of Jet

Viridis or bust

but preferably just find a way to not need to rely on colour alone

[timber scaffold]

Man, the more my rocket tips over, the more I think this is necessary

This truly shouldn't be happening

[rare grove]

Can you share the craft file somewhere?

[timber scaffold]

aeuh

I'll go see

[rare grove]

You should be able to copy the craft in the VAB after selecting it and then pasting it as text if nothing else works

[timber scaffold]

It appears that I may have not saved it

But in any case it's most likely because the center of mass is too high.

I do have a save though

But I don't know where the file is

[timber scaffold]

Found

That's the most I can do
And a, it's sending yes

[rare grove]

Okay, couple of things: I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you mean the center of mass is too low (too close to the bottom of the vessel). Additionally, if that's truly the issue, the vehicle flipping is exactly what should happen and is the result of the vehicle design, not a problem with the game.