#Dawntrail Benchmark Datamining & SPOILER Thread

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glass horizon
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Or maybe you open with Perfect Balance so your first one is unenhanced stuff but you gain your fury, then you lunar which uses one of each. That would work out if no filler existed between.

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I think you wanna use couerl actions unless in brotherhood

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Cause they have 400 potency if you use the right positional compared to 360 and 380 but Opo-opo will be strong cause of crits during brotherhood.

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Or any other effect that increases crits

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And you definitely wanna go double lunar now cause elixer burst is just better than rising phoenix

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Actually maybe not looks like rising phoenix got a potency increase

placid kelp
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Or they'll go back to how cards are right now, or completely change them yet again

steep gust
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It seems meant to keep the same filler rotation as before but just replacing timers with counters. Interaction with PB becomes slightly odd, but the "basic" filler loop is about the same.

glass horizon
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I know you could do weirdness with leaden fist before but that’s gone so there’s no moving through the stances

steep gust
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The stances still combo into each other the same. You can't spam just one when not under PB (unless you mean to invoke DK rotation and I doubt that will still be a thing)

glass horizon
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Coeurl potency is stronger so it would be demolish snap punch snap punch snap punch rather than dragon kick Bootshine anyway at least outside of crit increases.

forest kestrel
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So like, in order to avoid overcapping, you need to do some weird jank like 1-2-3, 4-5-6, 1-5-6, 4-2-6?

steep gust
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As a lunar/blitz PB sure, if coeurl is the strongest that's what people will use.

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I mean that's basically what you already do to maintain demolish and twin snakes. (And gain/spend leaden fists)

forest kestrel
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This is why I was always a memelord DK enjoyer

steep gust
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If at 0 press the gainer. If not at 0 press the spender. Rotate through stances as normal. Pretty simple and now interruptions and PB windows don't interact with the timers as weirdly, it's just running counts.

forest kestrel
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Yeah, I figure I'm overcomplicating it

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It'll probably feel the same at absolute worst, but most likely better overall

steep gust
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It seems meant to feel similar.

forest kestrel
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If only they rolled out that VPR DoT change for everyone, then MNK wouldn't have needed to lose their DoT

glass horizon
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If someone gains a dot even a pseudodot one has to be lost elsewhere

steep gust
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They've been taking our DoTs away since Stormblood.

glass horizon
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Cause they can’t have all the dots on a mob

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Due to the dot cap

forest kestrel
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(programming) skill issue

glass horizon
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And they’ve added like 3 new dots in DT

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So dots had to be lost somewhere

steep gust
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Not upkeep ones

forest kestrel
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Though, that's actually a really good point

glass horizon
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I mean it’s still the same for the issue

steep gust
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The only new upkeep DoT they added since EW was BoM

glass horizon
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Like w/e kind of dot it is is still gonna cause the same issue of dot numbers

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Or rather debuff numbers

placid kelp
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BoM?

steep gust
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I guess they did add Euk Dysk

glass horizon
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But they should get rid of like the one on circle of scorn it doesn’t fit the paladin thematics at all

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And the chain strategem follow up dot

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Then vipers pseudodot

steep gust
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That is a DoT, but it's mainly for AoE and the 40 potency higher than dosis or whatever on single target probably won't survive to launch.

glass horizon
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So at least 3 new ones

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I’m surprised bard didn’t lose one of their two

steep gust
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But only eukdysk is an upkeep

placid kelp
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I still don't know what BoM is, especially without job context

glass horizon
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Sure but again what kind it is doesn’t really matter for the issue they have

steep gust
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DoTs on cooldowns are not really the same thing.

forest kestrel
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I still stand on DoTs are shit design

glass horizon
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They are for the debuff cap issue

steep gust
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Breath of magic

forest kestrel
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It's a coupon for DPS

steep gust
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Anyway, NIN needs a pseudodot to make filler engaging again like it hasn't been since 5.08.

glass horizon
placid kelp
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I don't understand why Huton is a fire aoe

forest kestrel
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Having a job designed around the dots is fine

glass horizon
forest kestrel
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see also; Fester (rip SMN)

steep gust
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Mug isn't filler

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I mean bring back either SF or DE as a personal upkeep

glass horizon
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I know it isn’t but it’s clearly a poison cloud

placid kelp
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There we go with abbreviations again without job context

steep gust
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And have them spend kazematoi too to give better interplay to that system

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The job context is NIN this time

glass horizon
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I think their new gauge has been added with future additions in mind

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Cause otherwise the gauge makes no sense

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There’s no need for 5 slots clearly two would do cause it’s just 1 armour crush to 2 aeolian edge

steep gust
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Also PK should add 1, and you should start with 5 through either hide or a new downtime tool

glass horizon
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Otherwise you risk wasting potency

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I feel like the new trick attack should use one to become aoe

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Since it clearly looks like the gauge in terms of anims

steep gust
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It should be a filler mechanic, that's all fine. We just need more interesting filler

glass horizon
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You’d just have to gain one before a fight for trick attack to work

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I mean everything looks interesting compared to dragoon filler in DT

steep gust
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Bring back SF (SF2 or SF3) or DE as a personal slashing debuff and have it consume KM for extra potency. Small addition but it fleshes the filler back out immediately.

forest kestrel
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Please no. Please never bring back damage type specific debuffs

steep gust
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Just as a personal damage buff

forest kestrel
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PTSD of "Bring a DRG to buff the BRDs" intensifies

steep gust
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I did say personal the first time

forest kestrel
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Yeah, you did, but I was still shooketh

steep gust
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Main point is it should buff the filler with minimal impact on burst. That's why slashing. I think new TA is even magic but the tooltip isn't too clear.

forest kestrel
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I hope they condense combos into a single button so we can get two more 1-2-3 combos for classes that allow you to do more interesting things aside from "builder/spender" or "chores"

glass horizon
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I mean I guess it’s kinda what viper is

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Though they stuck to only two combos

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With that in mind you could have more than two combos on some jobs

forest kestrel
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Yeah, some jobs can have chores, some can have builder/spender, some can have branching paths or weird skill interactions

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Honestly, they should, and this pains me to say it, but they should really model the jobs more like how P Ranged currently is

steep gust
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VPR has 8 GCDs mapped to 2 buttons. It's more like 4 combos

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Jobs used to be more varied. They made everything the same through reworks. More jobs, less variety somehow.

forest kestrel
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Allegedly, there are plans to complicate jobs "after 7.2", and all this paring back was just to open deisng space

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It sounds like cope, but it's not like I have anyhting better to be doing atm

glass horizon
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Eh I saw a thing yesterday that was basically they are working on complicating and varying the fights and they have no fixed date on looking at varying the jobs.

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Cause they wanna get the fights into a more interesting place first.

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Though the only real thing they’ve said there and I think by design changes is smaller hitboxes and more ranged skills for melee meaning less melee uptime.

forest kestrel
steep gust
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Media tour interviews seemed to point at 8.0 for looking back at job identity and dehomoginization.

glass horizon
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So we’ll see if they do make interesting fights cause the first dungeon did not look that interesting though I did see melee downtime.

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It’s certainly a downgrade on Zot.

steep gust
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Never a good sign when your expansion opens with an autoscroller. See Stormblood.

forest kestrel
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I mean, I can't think of a new kind of mechanic at this point, there's only so much you can do with the tab target MMO combat style

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People bitched when you needed to kite things in BCoB, or do mechanics because wah wah wah my downtime

glass horizon
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So I could see duty actions coming back for one

forest kestrel
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Oh man, people don't know how to handle Nisi, or it's kid brother, Rot

rocky fractal
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Bring back Hello World 🙂

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Make boss untargetable or the hitbox takes up the whole arena during it

glass horizon
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Also more maths mechanics please Square!

steep gust
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Unreal HW kept solid uptime

forest kestrel
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Tryp and I had Burden yesterday. He waited til the last second to hand off Nisi and the person he handed it off to immediately handed it back to him

steep gust
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But I do like needing to find uptime stats like that

forest kestrel
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We need to kill the 2 minute meta

steep gust
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Please

glass horizon
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They should kill that

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It literally forced their hand with paladin

steep gust
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Bring back the 6m meta. That was fun to play around.

glass horizon
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Rng burst meta when!!!

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Buff timers with rng cooldowns

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I joke cause that would be terrible

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Except on like a gambler limited job

steep gust
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6m meta means you have 30, 60, 90, 120, and 180 all varied and working together.

rocky fractal
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I have a crazy idea: Delete the buff meta 🙂

forest kestrel
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Individual burst windows

glass horizon
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They deleted one buff from dragoon and just put it elsewhere like wtf, Bard has 6 buffs

tender panther
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Individual buff and burst windows is great if you're in a single player game and not an MMO with some team coordination expected

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'Let me just do my own thing' my brother in hydaelyn dark souls is right over there

forest kestrel
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How is it any different than having someone sandbag during a burst window?

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Or, worse yet, FORCING someone to sandbag to bolster someone else's parse?

tender panther
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Current meta does need improvements but the core concept of it being an expectation that a co-ordinated party is better than 8 randoms just doing their own thing with no comms is important to maintain

forest kestrel
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Make mechanics more punishing

glass horizon
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Could have some job on a 30 second window

forest kestrel
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And not in the "do it or die instantly" way

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Since that just minimizes healer impact

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wow my fingers are shit tier today

tender panther
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2 minute is a comfy burst frequency. Not so often as to be constant, not so infrequent as to be a single event per fight.

glass horizon
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Like ultimately they will line up with it but doesn’t need to be quite as rigid as 1 and 2 minutes

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Could have 40 second windows and line up

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Which would make a job completely different to everyone else.

tender panther
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We already do have 30, 60 and 90 second cooldowns though

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And 180

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And other random ass numbers

forest kestrel
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I mean, that's kind of how PLD is currently. It's on a 60s cycle

glass horizon
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Most jobs are on 60 second windows and then 2 minute windows

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Yes there are some odd skills like life surge on 40 seconds but they are not the job cadence.

rocky fractal
glass horizon
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I think bard is the only one on a strictly two minute window

rocky fractal
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Like "if you fuck this up, you get a 50% damage down for 15s"

forest kestrel
rocky fractal
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or longer

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IT SHOULD NOT do a lot of damage though

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I'm sick of survivable-but-avoidable mechanics being "healers adjust"

glass horizon
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Get hit by this and your buffs are disabled that’s what we need

rocky fractal
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VulnSnax are awful game design

forest kestrel
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"Someone else should pay for my bad behavior" is not the correct punishment for being a shitter

glass horizon
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Or can we get a mechanic that shifts where you are in your combo if hit lol

rocky fractal
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It should be "you and your parse suffers, and you might not make enrage check"

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So now parse monkeys won't just be dickheads and stand in shit because MUH UPTIME

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Now if you fuck up, your parse is instantly bad

forest kestrel
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Now, that's not to say it should be either or. There's a lot of valid strategy to "we can soak this mechanic"

rocky fractal
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For sure

glass horizon
rocky fractal
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There just needs to be less "healers can handle this"

steep gust
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Walldog mit

rocky fractal
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to the point where GCD healing is useless

steep gust
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Fully shield to avoid DD

forest kestrel
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Unless you're a WHM*

glass horizon
rocky fractal
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🥴

glass horizon
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It’s not like the new tools do anything new it’s just extra buttons

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But I feel the same way about tank mits

rocky fractal
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Yeah, like raids aren't getting stronger at all, but we are

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Back in ARR, you had very few tools and had to rely on stuff like GCD healing a ton

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and now it's like, why bother when an oGCD is always up for every bit of damage

glass horizon
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In the case of scholars it makes a completely disjointed job

rocky fractal
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Honestly it's surprising how little DT is changing classes. I thought there'd be a bit more of a shakeup, especially for DRG and AST to be claiming to get "reworks"

glass horizon
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Tbh I wouldn’t even be mad if the first jobs they focused on in 8.0 were ranks and healers cause ultimately dps as long as they deal enough damage it doesn’t matter how they do it. Healers and tanks are the ones dictating fight design.

glass horizon
forest kestrel
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Chaos Mode: Bring back more "stop DPS" mechanics like Haukke HM

rocky fractal
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Pyretic and Accel Bomb dogkek

glass horizon
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Pyretic hasn’t gone anywhere

rocky fractal
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"Healers adjust"

glass horizon
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And neither have time bombs

forest kestrel
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Stillness!

rocky fractal
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Legit need more DDs

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Or fuck

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Make em PACIFY you

forest kestrel
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Accel Bomb should have a 10s Pacify if you get hit by it

rocky fractal
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Uncurable Pacify + Silence

forest kestrel
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Fucking same braincell

glass horizon
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I think they don’t even need more mechanics they just need to have more mechanics happening at once and stop making every fight a tutorial on how to do the fight

rocky fractal
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Especially when Normal exists for that

glass horizon
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Even in normals

forest kestrel
glass horizon
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Like Alliance Raids should be able to wipe you outside of like people being stupid on insta wipe mechanics

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Day 1 people were barely dying on them

forest kestrel
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Here's the thing; Yes, fights should be harder. The playerbase needs to stop being big fucking babies and actually put in effort

glass horizon
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Cause the telegraphs are so obvious and there’s only one going on at the time yet they have a teaching you this mechanic part of the fight before they even do two mechanics at once

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Compared to the first boss of Rabanstre where it’s like here have all these orbs and a skating add and some water things.

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And you are like wtf is happening?

forest kestrel
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Weeping City and Dun Scaith were butthole rearrangers until the playerbase cried wah wah wah wah hard enough to get them neutered

glass horizon
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Halone does the same mechanic twice in a a row with no other mechanic at the same time because?

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Tower of Zot is a decent level of difficulty for a normal fight

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At least for dungeons, alliance raids should be harder than dungeons though not as hard as extremes.

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Some of the n raids are easier than dungeon bosses in ew tbh

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Why is crazy since everyone does the dungeons anyway

tender panther
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All of the alliance raid bosses are easier than magus sisters without overgearing 😌

glass horizon
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Yep but they shouldn’t be

tender panther
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Honestly the mechanics are mostly fine on most of them its just ilvl that smashes them because the sync is so generous

glass horizon
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Idk about that even blind day 1 there were no wipes on anything but Nald’thal cause he has an insta wipe.

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Like that’s not a good difficulty state Imo

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We should have to figure stuff out

tender panther
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Its hard to wipe when you have so many raises available at all, and that'll never change

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But I sure as hell saw entire alliances dying plenty day 1 on all of them, even in endwalker

glass horizon
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I mean you say that but then Orbonne

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The mechanics just need to be hectic enough and hard enough

tender panther
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Eh, orbonne ain't that much, really.

Fun Sciath is the only regular wipe in alliance raids.

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And even then, only boss 1

glass horizon
tender panther
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Because it has a hard enrage

glass horizon
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I don’t really see wipes in either

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But I do see a lot of deaths to the three Lucavi on Ultima

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Like enough that without red mages we’d probably wipe

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Wipe on Ridorana a bit cause people ignore adds

tender panther
glass horizon
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Oh wait maybe not Ridorana we Rabanstre second boss I always mix the first boss of Ridorana and second boss of Rabanstre up

tender panther
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Oh that makes a bit more sense

glass horizon
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I blame the arenas they look the same

tender panther
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True

forest kestrel
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It also has a bit of the ol' Elden Ring problem of the names being similar

glass horizon
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I don’t even know what those boss names are tbf

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I think the ice one is Matius and I know Rafocale

forest kestrel
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I only distinguish by the last boss. Fuckstain, Yeezy and Ultima

clever plinth
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Mateus, Hashmal, Famfrit, Belias, Ultima are Espers in ff12 (lucavi in ff tactics)

Rofocale not sure where it came from

Argath, Construct 8, Mustadio, Agrias, Orlandeu are characters from Tactics

Yiazmat superboss from 12

tender panther
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We have three final bosses

I AM REVELATION
BAHBAHS BLAYD
Athena version -1.0

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Rofocale is a random miniboss in 9

clever plinth
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Ohhhh

tender panther
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I think

glass horizon
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You mean like a knife through butter?

clever plinth
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THE EMPIIIRE IS A CANCEEH

forest kestrel
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Rofocale is also the Sagitarius Lucavi in Tactics, but was dummied out

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We were missing a handful of Lucavi

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I hope that Tactics Remaster is actually a comprehensive version and has all the dummied out content and extra stuff from the ports

tender panther
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Ah wait no I was thinking of Armodullahan in FF9

clever plinth
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So they left out Rofocale and used Elidibus instead for Saggitarius?

forest kestrel
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Elidibus was Serpentarius

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13th Zodiac

clever plinth
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Ohhh, oops

forest kestrel
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Ophiucus or whatever

clever plinth
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Stupid S letter

forest kestrel
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When's Vagrant Story remake?

glass horizon
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Probably never

clever plinth
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But yeah, I need Tactics Remaster/Remake/Movie inside my PS5

glass horizon
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I’d happily play a tactics pixel remaster

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He says knowing he still hasn’t touched the 1-6 remasters

forest kestrel
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Some of those are playable now!

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5 had some WILD bugs at launch

glass horizon
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I have them I just haven’t touched them

forest kestrel
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Nothing quite like landing my airship on a coast and having it vanish forever

clever plinth
glass horizon
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Look 14 takes up too much time I can’t play other games

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I’m literally on the final stage of 16 for like a year at this point cause I need to go finish it

clever plinth
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After some needless thinking

Why tf DRG's Lance Charge doesn't just upgrade into Dragon Sight (without tethering/target), to keep it in line of DRG's identity

glass horizon
clever plinth
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Lance Charge animation so old and junk

glass horizon
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Like I thought the whole point was to slightly reduce the busyness

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Why are there two one minute personal buffs? It’s stupid.

clever plinth
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They could even remove Life Surge, just give Full Thrust the trait

glass horizon
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Nah cause you don’t just use it on full thrust

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You use it on fang and claw too or I guess drakesbane now

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And it’s skill expression

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The only bit remaining in DRG

clever plinth
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Speaking of old and junk animation

Rampart

AHHHHHHH jumps off a cliff

glass horizon
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I wish they’d just remove it and condense tank mits

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Reduce cds on their other ones

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Cause frankly it’s just bloat

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If I could change DRG after DT changes, remove lance charge completely just tie in the potency buffs with battle litany and life of the dragon, restore gaze but return dragon sight as an ability that out of combat is instant and restores gaze and in combat it has a long cast time since dragoons can’t do anything in downtime. Make Doom Spike change the other st gcds into the aoe combo and increase the number of aoe buttons while at the same time reducing button bloat. Add a defensive called like warding scale or something.

clever plinth
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Def need a defesive, seriously DRG

glass horizon
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And then I’d probably also remove starcross after Stardiver but move rise of the dragon to after Stardiver. Meanwhile I’d add a new mechanic to Dragonfire that you do something else to trigger an upgrade to elddragon dive.

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And I’d like to see the dragoon have like glowey dragon wings during the anim but that’s just a personal thing.

glass horizon
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I do like how you can move in starcross though which they should go back and add to Stardiver especially since it’s such a long anim lock

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Though I wouldn’t say no to them adding it to jump but jump functions slightly weirdly so maybe not.

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One thing that could be interesting would be having actions that can only be executed outside of life of the dragon. So forced to be outside the buff window.

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Could even use stardiver as the button for it

tawny pond
glass horizon
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They should make it that out of combat Picto repaints all their motifs by pressing any of the three motif buttons. Having to press all 3 after every fight is poor QoL.

clever plinth
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Like Monk's Meditate

Which btw, BLM's Umbral Soul should stop timer out of combat

glass horizon
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Well it does work like monk meditate just cause there’s 3 they need 3 buttons.

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Which is kinda of eh

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Soul Sow and Meditate are good examples. Alternatively just have them reset out of combat.

tawny pond
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it'd be nice if Umbral Soul froze the timer out of combat, yeah...

glass horizon
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Preach interview has the mention of removing trash from dungeons and the possibility of 4 consecutive boss dungeons. Can we get that please Yoshi P? I think I’m in the minority that trash pulls do not interest me at all.

forest kestrel
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I'm ambivalent. The trash is typically the hardest part of the dungeon, since it's the only part where you can actually die

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but if it lets them have more interesting fights, or more dungeons, great

tawny pond
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eh... trash is easy to sprinkle into dungeons, especially when you can pick one or two mechanics for each pack to do from throwing a dart at a proverbial board. I like not having any trash packs for Savage stuff, but trash is part of what makes the dungeons fun. that said, I would like more dungeons, but trash can be practically proceedurally generated by giving a program a list to mix and match and pick model, number of mobs, and special mechanic for them. trash is easy. bosses are what's hard

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heck, on that note, I think I'd rather have a roulette for Deep Dungeons that kept to the tank-healer-2 dps meta that always rewarded a chest with random mounts/minions in it. or a gold-fringed sack (or whatever the top Accursed Hoard reward is called for that dungeon), it'd give people a reason to do them

glass horizon
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Though realistically I don’t think they’ll ever change from the structure they have now except on the odd occasion, basically said it was a time based calculation so the only way they could do a 4 boss dungeon is to get rid of trash.

glass horizon
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Looking at PCT tooltips, nothing between 50 and 60… They get like 3 things at 60 that’s an odd choice. Least they get two motifs by 50.

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Then they get their party buff at 70 but nothing between 50 and 70, I know it doesn’t matter that much but eh syncing down is still a thing as are deep dungeons.

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Literally only holy in white between 71 and 80 which is a very poor 80 capstone.

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81-90 is slightly better you get your group defensive and new hammer stuff

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Even with traits I thought this was gonna be more spread out like fire in red turning into aero in green coulda been at higher levels but looks like you get the combo at 1.

rocky fractal
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They're also spamming 1 button til 30 too

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  • You literally have Fire in Red (MAYBE Aero in Green and Water in Blue too)
  • Shield at 10
  • Dash forward at 20
  • The AoE combo at 25
    and then at 30 you finally get Pom, Wing, and Hammer. Nvm just creature

This is worse than Healers pre-30 who also have a DoT to manage dogkek

rocky fractal
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FTR before 30, everyone has their:

  • 1-2-3 combo (PCT's is intentionally 1 button though)
  • Healer/BLM/Bard DoTs (Bard doesn't get Windbite til 30 though)
  • Some additional actions (Standard Step at 15, SMN has all 3 summons by 22 which also involves Aethercharge, ED, Fester, and Gemshine which is actually a lot at pre-30, etc)

and then until 50, you get... nothing. 50 gets you Hammer, 60 gets you the Subtractive Palette which is just the combos you've been hitting but a separate button dogkek and then 70 you get the raid buff

clever plinth
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I wonder if 8.0 will keep the lv cap at 100 and just move abilities down some levels

rocky fractal
clever plinth
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Ohh yeah, u mean like ARR squish to like, 20 instead of 50?

rocky fractal
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I'd hope 25 so you just halve everything unlike WoW's weird ass system of 60 => 24 or so, but yeah

clever plinth
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Yeah, 25 makes sense

rocky fractal
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But yeah PCT is gonna feel like shit in low level content, much more than other classes

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One of the biggest crimes is not even getting the bonus movement speed on Smudge until 84.

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Like, would it really be that big a deal to let them have it at 20 baseline?

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They don't have Aetherial Manip like BLM, they don't have dash/backflip like RDM, and they have way more casts than a SMN.

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(hopefully it's a bit further than En Avant)

placid kelp
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I really wish that by 30 everyone had at least one aoe

glass horizon
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You get a very early potency and healing buff for some reason

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I don't understand why they didn't spread out the combos or even the second and third hammer combo parts.

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They could even have spread pom and wing out and just not have had them save

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It's kinda the rogue problem where they give you like hide and the defensive but at a massively worse scale.

clever plinth
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Had to, it just makes sense and so much cleaner

rocky fractal
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(I'd also love if we got XIVCombo and they consolidated 1-2-3 etc combos into one button like how Picto works)

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and they could 1000000% make it optional obs

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I get some people will get pissed "REE IT'S TOO EASY NOW!" but like, accessibility isn't a bad thing, and combating button bloat is a good thing. I'm not the best player in the world and using plugins lets me do savage and even potentially ultimates.

clever plinth
#

Im on board with that

Tho i dont really mind 1-2-3 being separate, I do mind greyed out buttons being separate, like why?

#

Hell i even forgot to compare Draconian Fire with Raiden Thrust (or Jump/Mirage Dive) on that Bard feedback, fml

rocky fractal
#

I'm on board with max consolidation because it makes sense

clever plinth
#

Maybe 8.0 will lean more to it, or fully. Considering PCT (and VPR I think?)

forest kestrel
#

I used to be violently opposed to consolidating the combos, until I realized that if they combined the 1-2-3 into 1 button, they could have two full ass combos condensed to "replace" the 2 and 3 and give actual player agency and potentially interesting decision making

rocky fractal
#

It's funny cuz they already consolidate combos in PvP and MSQ

#

So like, add the option to PvE too

forest kestrel
#

I think the most important part is adding the option whether to sunder the combos or not

#

What they're doing in DT is elegant

#

As long as things are Opt-In, and not the other way around, people will accept it

rocky fractal
#

Yeah

#

Removing options is almost always bad. (FUCK YOU CHROME, GET THAT FUCKING ARROW OFF MY SCREEN)

tawny pond
#

yeah, if the combos are literally just 1-2-3 with no deviations or off-shoots, then it makes no sense to not have them be the same button. the same 3 buttons that take up an unconsolidated 1-2-3 can then be used to potentially give some new 2s or 3s with different effects to those combos and give players a bit more choice in what they wanna do, or some more buffs to keep rolling on themselves or something, similar to how WAR's 1-2-3 splits into two different 3s with different effects

forest kestrel
#

Even if it's as simple as maintaining a personal buff, what I refer to as "chores", it's still better than what we have currently

rocky fractal
#

Even with off-shoots like WAR or SAM, you can make the paths a separate button.

XIVCombo makes the finisher the separate buttons for WAR, but the 1-2 remains the same

#

Hakaze for all 3 SAM buttons, and they splinter

clever plinth
#

They could bring back amazing/diff animations like Power Slash, Butcher's Block

Btw, make Shadowskin the low lv Shadow Wall, just to have the animation back

#

PLD's Savage Blade

forest kestrel
#

I kind of wish they'd add more low level skills that upgrade into the more cohesive kit, even if it means we only get one or two "new" abilities each expansion

#

You should have a fully cohesive kit by no later than 50

clever plinth
#

Also, move role actions to the Actions tab, just put it on top before the lv 1. Job action

Role
Weaponskills
Spells
Abilities
Unassignable actions

Push role actions into ppl's visual, to remember they exist (aka Rampart tanks, gdi)

forest kestrel
#

Arm's Length

clever plinth
#

BLM's umbral soul would be nice pre-50

steep gust
#

That would be great if bloat were the reason they murdered filler upkeep. But something tells me it was much more deliberate than that. For whatever fucked up reason, they want us to have nothing to do but 1-2-3 for 75% of the fight.

#

At least BLU is allowed to be interesting. They care so little about it they completely passed it by when taking the fun and identity out of jobs.

upbeat crater
#

Is insane

rocky fractal
#

It's not, it's literally just bloat

#

6 combo buttons for SAM turns into THREE

#

DRG goes from 7 to TWO

upbeat crater
#

My only argument for drg is tea having opti where you purposely break your combo to dot both living liquid and the hand

rocky fractal
glass horizon
#

Yeah I personally think DRG and SAM are poor examples for this as a use case.

rocky fractal
#

I use it for SAM, it's an outstanding use case.

upbeat crater
rocky fractal
glass horizon
#

Hard disagree, it's 100% making you unable to mess up when choosing the combos.

rocky fractal
#

You do Combo 2

#

then Combo 2 Again

glass horizon
#

No, you do combo to chaos thrust then do chaos thrust again

rocky fractal
#

It's just bloat.

#

You're not intended to fuck up

glass horizon
#

It's not making the choice between which to press in a combo is skill

rocky fractal
#

Yeah and you still... choose.

upbeat crater
#

You could still choose to the do the wrong combo on drg and Sam technically

glass horizon
#

I've seen plenty people play SAM and not get their stickers cause they suck

rocky fractal
#

Just to show you what it looks like

image.png
glass horizon
#

And making it you just press 1 three times then 2 three times and 3 three times in that exact order is a problem.

rocky fractal
#

Turns into this when I press 1 again

image.png
upbeat crater
#

Like if you have a sticker from combo 1 then press combo 1 again like an idiot (me)

rocky fractal
#

After the 3, it then goes into the WT/F&C part

image.png
glass horizon
rocky fractal
#

So I don't understand what you meant

rocky fractal
glass horizon
#

Yeah xivcombo is cheating

rocky fractal
#

I never said it wasn't because any plogon is "cheating", I just think having 6+ buttons when 2 suffices is dumb and bloat.

forest kestrel
#

intellectually dishonest

glass horizon
#

Like you can also install plugins that play the game for you doesn't mean it's something they should add

rocky fractal
#

That's quite a jump in logic.

glass horizon
#

Not really

forest kestrel
#

They are ADDING something similar to XIVCombo in DT already

glass horizon
#

It's cheating in exactly the same principle

rocky fractal
#

They've also added a LOT of plogon functionality into the base game

forest kestrel
#

So your argument of "it's cheating" is intellectually dishonest

rocky fractal
#

Is it "cheating" to have 100 gear sets? Yes.
Is it cheating when they see that's a popular plogon so they add it to the base game?

#

Also yes, they are adding XIVCombo functionality to the game, just not for 1-2-3 combos

#

They realize there's a bloat issue, but only taking a half measure

steep gust
#

I'd gladly take consolidated buttons if it meant the jobs were allowed to have more than 4 filler skills forming 1.5 combos.

glass horizon
# forest kestrel They are ADDING something similar to XIVCombo in DT already

They are for certain skills but they've always had that they are just adding more actions to it. What they aren't doing is making DRG combos 2 buttons and SAM combos 3 buttons. There's plenty other cases where they could combine combos but any in which there is a choice should not be considered for this treatment.

rocky fractal
#

Okay so why don't we have combos in PvP

#

Instead they're consolidated to one button

forest kestrel
#

And the argument is that they should consolidate the 1-2-3s with the same system

rocky fractal
#

Why doesn't Monk have a 7-button combo?

glass horizon
rocky fractal
#

🤨

glass horizon
steep gust
#

VPR gets 8 skills across 4 combos on 2 buttons. Why can't NIN have more than 4 filler skills?

forest kestrel
#

It literally is

rocky fractal
#

I understand it's "not the same", but it's still the same buttons doing the same purpose: Damage

image.png
glass horizon
#

SAM and DRG do not have 1-2-3 combos

forest kestrel
#

yes they do lmao

rocky fractal
glass horizon
rocky fractal
glass horizon
#

It's not

#

It's called choice

#

You have to make the decision what to press next and that is where the difference lies

steep gust
#

The choice is when they branch

rocky fractal
glass horizon
forest kestrel
#

"I should be able to play suboptimally because I don't want the developers to have room to explore new actions and reduce bloat!"

rocky fractal
#

I could accidentally 1-2-1 on SAM

glass horizon
rocky fractal
steep gust
#

They already do

rocky fractal
#

you can press the wrong combo on accident.

#

"I was doing the 1-2-3 combo, but accidentally hit the 4 button after the 2, whoops"

#

I literally still do that with XIVCombo

glass horizon
#

If you wanna have the game played for you might as well use the plugins that do it or one that if you press 1 constantly let's you do everything perfectly.

rocky fractal
#

There's a difference between hotbar bloat and botting.

steep gust
#

Half of the time DF smoothbrains aren't pressing a button at all

glass horizon
rocky fractal
#

Also Lodvik

steep gust
#

Combating bloat won't fix them.

rocky fractal
#

you can literally do this with macros

glass horizon
forest kestrel
#

Lodvik refuses to actually engage the conversation on an honest level, instead choosing to take the absolute most dire stance on it.

glass horizon
rocky fractal
#

In fact, you could "bot" with macros better than you can with XIVCombo

forest kestrel
#

Nothing, just calling it how I see it

rocky fractal
#

Also let's take it down a bit.

glass horizon
#

Nonsense you absolutely do have an issue with me

rocky fractal
#

I mean Lodvik you came in here guns blazing comparing reducing button bloat to outright botting.

forest kestrel
#

The argument is that they shoudl consolidate the combos using the systems already in existence within the confines of the game, including the new test they are doing in DT, and your "counter-argument" is "BUT IT'S CHEATING!"

glass horizon
#

You wanna cheat go cheat don't expect others to support it

rocky fractal
#

If you don't see a difference in those two, idk what to tell you

rocky fractal
#

I'm saying "I hope they add this to the game, if not, whatever"

#

Because the XIV team actively is looking at mods to add to the game baseline

glass horizon
#

Literally are the minute someone disagreed with your stance go on the attack

forest kestrel
#

There should be THE OPTION tor educe the bloat by consolidating the combos

glass horizon
#

Literally at the personal attack stage

forest kestrel
#

And you started on the attack

glass horizon
#

Seriously get stuffed

steep gust
#

There's no functional difference between 111, 221, 212, 122... vs 123, 456, 427, 158...

rocky fractal
#

Okay stop

glass horizon
steep gust
#

You can still fuck up at any point by pressing the wrong thing.

glass horizon
#

Genuinely screw you guys when you are the ones with personal attacks

rocky fractal
#

If you're referring to me, I'm not personally attacking you at all

steep gust
#

It just uses way fewer buttons on the hotbar

forest kestrel
#

Calling out a poor argument is not a personal attack

#

Saying "if you want to cheat with consolidated combos" is

rocky fractal
forest kestrel
#

Adults can freely disagree with one another without getting heated

glass horizon
#

Clearly you can't

tawny pond
forest kestrel
#

I'm not the one crying about personal attacks

glass horizon
#

Cause you havea hate boner for me for some reason

forest kestrel
#

No, just because I don't agree with you 100% is not a "hate boner"

static dune
#

both of you, cool it

glass horizon
glass horizon
static dune
#

lodvik, stop

clever plinth
#

Waaaait

upbeat crater
#

Look on the bright side
That Samurai spamming 1 is gonna be doing more damage with this change

#

Jack missed Rage of Halone

tawny pond
# glass horizon I disagree but I'm not allowed to disagree without personal attacks clearly

you're allowed to disagree with me, I have no issues with that. but I also remember from other MMOs where people with important roles in my raiding groups were banned for using actual bots like HonorBuddy and other BuddyBots, and that's where I personally really draw a line. SE isn't going to ban you for using Dalamud plugins unless you're really, really egrigious about it (like streaming nudie mods) or using it to denigrate other players. they will ban you for using bots that actively take away all player agency and play the game for you.

steep gust
#

Can we at least agree that 5.1 reducing NIN to 1-2-3 and 1-2-4 was bad for the job? Yeah, with only 4 buttons there's not much call to consolidate right now, But if they did add the system they could give us a few more interesting choices to make during filler and actually flesh it out with real priorities to manage and consider.

upbeat crater
#

(reducing button bloat for the combos does actually open this option up)

#

Because one of the main constraints is hotbar space

glass horizon
upbeat crater
#

Paladin on controller is currently bloated for wxhb

#

And that job is easy af

glass horizon
#

Paladin is a great example of where they could combine the 1-2-3 combo

#

Though they should also just remove shield bash and frankly cover even if it's useful in niche situations.

rocky fractal
steep gust
#

Again, VPR has 8 GCDs across 2 buttons forming 4 combos. What other job gets 4 filler combos to manage? That's the kind of thing button consolidation can do. We can open up so much more interesting space on the other jobs.

rocky fractal
#

What other job gets 4 filler combos to manage?
Picto if you count the AoE ones dogkek

clever plinth
#

Shield Bash should just be PLD's Leg Sweep

upbeat crater
#

If it's made an ogcd sure...

rocky fractal
#

They have 1-2-3 ST, 1-2-3 AoE, and then the flipped palette 1-2-3 ST/AoE

glass horizon
steep gust
#

If we counted AoE VPR would have even more.

clever plinth
static dune
#

god no, we don't need another Leeches

glass horizon
#

Role actions ultimately hurt job design and constrain it.

clever plinth
#

Give me back my SCH Leeches

steep gust
#

Literally back to what I said earlier about the rPhys mits vs role esuna.

glass horizon
#

Cause gotta force those positionals onto new melee DPS to make true north valuable

#

Like when is Viper even meant to weave that in with all the ogcds?

rocky fractal
#

They could even make the Ranged party mit a role action, but they didn't.

upbeat crater
#

Make resurrection a role action
Chaos ensues

steep gust
#

Wait, that was in a different server

rocky fractal
#

I'd be fine if they wanted to make like Rampart and Reprisal more personal, but we don't need more than 1 Lucid Dreaming or Arm's Length dogkek

glass horizon
clever plinth
#

At the very least, if keep Role actions, just put them together with the Job's actions in their abilities menu

glass horizon
#

Pelaton is kinda cool cause it's a role action with job flavour in animations

upbeat crater
clever plinth
#

BLM's using Lucid and never using ice spells hurts their learning curve

glass horizon
tawny pond
rocky fractal
#

Even moreso for BLM given how DT Ice attacks will work

upbeat crater
#

There is lucid opti for blm though

#

But that's going away

rocky fractal
glass horizon
#

I'm sure there is weirdness but clearly not how it's designed

#

Or intended

rocky fractal
#

I had a "Yes, I like the QoL, but I can see why high-end BLMs are upset" discussion with my private server that day

tawny pond
#

until 7.0, at least

upbeat crater
#

Blm is going from the best designed job to basic bitch trash

glass horizon
#

I think it is well designed as is but relying on server ticks is not good design.

upbeat crater
#

I mean I play sps
I always hated MP ticks
But it's still taking away opti and fun

glass horizon
#

So I am glad that part is going

rocky fractal
#

I see both sides of the argument for sure. I like the QoL but it is stripping a huge thing from high-end BLMs

upbeat crater
#

Pure standard isn't exactly the most riveting gameplay

rocky fractal
#

The ticks are stupid

clever plinth
#

The removal of Paradox from Blizzard does bug me a bit, tho i dont main it and im all for more Fire spam

glass horizon
#

From what I hear the other changes do sound bad but then that's what everyone else is suffering.

rocky fractal
#

I think Manafont is a lot more interesting now for sure

upbeat crater
#

Manafont was bad anyway

#

It's especially bad pre 80

steep gust
#

After everything they stripped away from every other job, I have no sympathy left for BLM. We never even had nonstandard rotations to begin with.

glass horizon
#

GNB might have the most optimisation due to cartridges now tbh

#

Since BLM is losing a lot

#

Though cartridge optimisation is like use an aoe instead of st attack to gain a cartridge

#

So it's not overly complicated

upbeat crater
steep gust
#

I've been mad at them. Screaming this whole time. I shed no tears for the BLMs. Good, you now suffer like the rest of us, now fucking join us in our screaming so maybe they'll finally listen.

upbeat crater
#

Still not a good pov

steep gust
#

If it affects BLMs, there's a chance Yoship will listen for once.

glass horizon
#

Lol he's approved the changes on BLM for sure

#

That and the media tour answers show this is what they want to design for.

#

I'm more hopeful for encounter design than class design.

clever plinth
#

Something ive asked for, sent feedback on, unrelated

Make RP party finders a complete separate memu, RP Finder

Honestly visually tired of seeing 50 PFs up, 47 being lounge/erp services, and multiple of the same ones

I can set hide Others, but it resets upon logout

#

Stop being horny and play the game, be horny on ur personal alone time

tawny pond
#

can we also break up the roulettes a little? like maybe 50/60/70 Roulette and 80/90 their own roulette (to have 100 added to it in the expansion after DT)? like, having 50 levels of different dungeons in a single roulette is kinda insane (leveling not withstanding, since iirc that's all storyline dungeons anyway)

clever plinth
#

Or name it 50-90 in DT

No need to put 60, 70, 80 in between

glass horizon
#

I don't think there should be a separate max level and expert roulette though they just need to make sure to add a sync in.

#

And Dusk Vigil from HW

clever plinth
#

Shisui from SB also optional

glass horizon
#

Oh true

tawny pond
#

ah. well, still, the post ARR capstone roulettes are still too clogged up to be a single roulette and needs to be split, godsdamnit XD