Planned feature: Permadeath

[boreal grove]

They can be neat, yeah. Vanilla-like mods are just easier to slot into a campaign without things getting too messy. But it's up to the host's experience.

[nimble geode]

also wonder why it is in server settings, not campaign settings

[boreal grove]

That is a fair question. I don't know.

Because yea, you could reasonably want different skill loss settings for two different campaigns you're hosting in parallel.

[sly ibex]

Time spent programming the permadeath thing is time taken away from other things, so that's why the devs want to go with just one way of doing it.

[undone mist]

make it so that anyone that dies has to get rescued like, the sub having to go to an abandoned ruin something similar to Left 4 Dead lol

[sly ibex]

Doesn't really make sense with the lore and vibes of the game tbh.

Things are simply so lethal that... yea, you die in the spot and that's it.

[narrow hinge]

For permadeath, there could be a hard quest that allows characters to be revived, although that might go against the spirit of the gamemode

For example, if someone has died, you might have to clear out a large ruin of fractal guardians

[robust scarab]

I'm thinking a hybrid between option 1 and 2. The replacement character should be hired from the HR manager. Allow players to spend more money for higher skills and/or talent points

[narrow hinge]

That might lead to problems with players intentionally dying then buying a character with more skills if a cap isnt put on it

[robust scarab]

XP is already based on money earned by the sub + talent modifiers

[wind briar]

so, you have bot B and player P.
when player P dies, it can take control of B.
when round ends, do both P and B (player controlling P) respawn?
or is P gone forever and only B is left (player controlling B)?

if player controls P, it would feel like when csgo let u inhabit bots when kil (everything returned to normal after round end)

can anyone make an example that fits the other situation?

[naive sphinx]

very true, looking at the options I collated... I would say while you're possessing the "respawn button" should stay up, and you can click it to do any of the respawns you have available ("shuttle respawn", "submarine respawn")

Then if you arrive at an outpost you would get the outpost options you had ("Respawn Free") or your captain could go "Purchase Respawn at Outpost" your old character, at which point you get the screen for "Do you wish to take over your old character (respawned) or abandon them and control this one?"

It could also have a button for "Abandon previous character" which lets you possess the bot permanently

[boreal grove]

P is gone forever in the version proposed by the devs.

Essentially, every character is treated like a bot. And the player is an incorporeal entity that can inhabit bots. You get one body from the start and are allowed to possess a new one when the current one has died. As long as there are AI-controlled bodies still left to possess.

[fickle thorn]

Permadeath multiplayer idea

Maybe allow death people to take over bought crewmembers. But add a vote before they can. so one person can not take over every bot and die with them.
This way you are loosing a crewmate with every death.

Make it so at the creation of a server there are 4 crewmates and a fifth player can only start playing when they buy a new crewmember

And maybe when a bot has been taken over you reset the skill tree and give the points back so the person who's gonna be playing the crewmate now can spend them the way they want.
And obviously you are stuck in the body until you die

Most of what i just said is already the plan as far as i can read in this post.

I just wrote down what i thought would be nice way of doing it

[naive sphinx]

bots can have traitor missions right? would it make sense to take over a traitor accidentally? just a thought of the complications there

[naive sphinx]

This is a good consideration too!!! griefing could damage a server using "bot possession" (e.g. if they wanted no other way to respawn)

[fickle thorn]

I forgot about traiters for second i bought the game yesterday

But have watched it a lot.

[robust scarab]

I'm pretty sure bots can't be traitors, at least according to the wiki.

[vernal grove]

I would rather have the ability to ressurect the characters that died at outposts. I don't want to take over a bot and I don't really want to have to make a new character because I play on RP servers and I have a "character" that I enjoy playing. I'm totally fine with some kind of penalty to skills or something as a result of dying. I'm not a fan of the respawn shuttle and would much rather wait and see if the survivors can "clutch" a win and make it back to the outpost where we all join them again.

I also don't think the ironman mode is a good use of dev time/resources because I can't see annyone spectating for hours with no hope of ever playing again. Especially seeing how easy it is for an accident to end everything for someone.

[wet grove]

This kinda sounds like the whole permadeath feature is not for you, rather than one of the variants.

[quick oasis]

Being able to disable shuttles and spawn only at outposts and the start of missions sounds cool

Also if you die in permadeath just leave, theres literally no point in staying lol

Doesnt really sound like something youd be doing in a campaign with friends anyway

[prime stone]

what you're describing is literally the current respawn mechanic
as stated in the blog post, permadeath is an optional mode

[manic sandal]

Not sure if it's been said but making all permadeath options available/making the permadeath mechanics customizable sounds like it'd be great to me

[tawny mica]

Yeah you can already do this

[tight gust]

Yeah.
I don't know the first bit about coding so idk how difficult it would be to do this, but all options could be implemented and you pick which type to use in the server

[prime stone]

if you know nothing about coding, then it should be safe for you to assume that having to develop all three as features (as opposed to just one) would require three times the work

[naive sphinx]

I figure ironman would be for Larger servers, where people join to live "one life". So rather then spectating they'd move on to another game

[prime stone]

many people have likened ironman mode to what some people already do; ban on death

[naive sphinx]

yeah, tho if you could choose rather then forcing one type of "ironman" you could allow players to join as spectators once they've died before

start a server with just "spectate" as the respawn option

(or block it if you want no chance of communication outside)

[prime stone]

it does seem like the most straightforward way to implement would be to only allow spectate mode for players that have died

[tight gust]

yeah, I figured it would be more work to put all 3 features in, and more difficult

[true pasture]

i really want ironman mode

it makes medics way more valuable

[tawny ore]

I have been hosting public campaigns where I enforce Permadeath Option 2 myself for a couple of years. I would love to have Option 2 or Option 3 as a server setting. Option 3 sounds very fun, and I can see it being a way for a host to control which player plays which job, which is great for public lobbies where you do not trust new people right away.

There have been two things I've wanted for this style of play for a long time. The ability to trigger the respawn shuttle manually, and the ability to restrict which jobs players can spawn in as. Restricting the jobs of unfamiliar players is obvious. As for shuttles, I've often wanted to be able to call a shuttle at appropriate game moments, like while in proximity to an active beacon station. As it works now, on a timer, I almost never use it during my campaigns.

One concern I have is if there would be a way to mitigate for "bug deaths." Since we aren't talking full Ironman mode its not that big a deal in this thread, but its very disheartening to lose a lot of talent points to a death which only happened due to a game bug.

[tawny mica]

I extend this worry to griefers as well

[tawny ore]

Yes. I think of griefers more like a feature at this point. They get banned, at any rate

[wet grove]

Both will be difficult to have mitigation for I think. I don't think the game would be able to detect them. Maybe cheating back the xp would be the way to go atm.

[tawny mica]

Then you lose achievements

I don't think you should lose achievements personally for it but thats for another place

[tawny ore]

Yes, a referee must make judgement calls. If permadeath is part of the lobby settings, then the host can console in experience for the recreated character. In games where the host enforces permadeath rules as I have been doing, tell the player they don't have to create a new character. Its easy to know if the player has created a new character if they change their name, even if slightly.

[tawny ore]

How to handle bug deaths is my biggest concern about a future "ironman mode." I host full Ironman campaigns as well, and I really strive to be fair with those players.

It would be nice if the game didn't spawn you at all as long as you marked yourself as spectator

[deep python]

My issue with permadeath is an issue with solo, too.
Frequently, i've seen that whenever a teammate dies in solo (Or a bot in multiplayer dies), the host will restart instantly.
I fear that this would occur in ironman, permadeath, etc: which would actively work to make the game more boring.
For this, I think EXP gain could be tweaked via serverside options. If EXP isn't as difficult to grind out (with it often taking until the great sea+ to get a maxxed character), then people will be discouraged from restarting at the end of a round because the loss in potential xp isn't as drastic.

Another thing I would look at is taking the reincarnate idea of controlling a bot, and adding it as an applicable multiplayer option.
So often, I have friends who like their job for a while but eventually want to switch.
Allowing a body-swap mechanic to be accessed by anybody via an option that can be activated/deactivated would be so, so incredibly good for multiplayer because I find that my friends and I just dislike playing near the end of the aphotic plateu because we all feel bored by then.

[tawny ore]

Buying experienced characters is a great idea

[quick oasis]

Give server admins the ability to revive characters too in the event of griefers ruining the game
Im sure you can just restart too if thats an option but people will probably be leaving once they die

[tawny mica]

thats my thoughts

[rocky badge]

Ngl 2 and 3 could be the same thing just adding a single button as an option to switch betwen the 2

[humble mist]

Excuse me, were there any suggestions about fallen players play for monsters till the end of round or the end of crew?

[prime stone]

permadeath and ironman are going to be optional modes 🙄
If you don't want to savescum because of losing crew in solo/multi, just don't enable permadeath then, simple as that

[boreal grove]

That's what I'm thinking too. If you chose the permadeath mode, you know exactly what kind of experience you're looking for.

Restarting rounds is cheaty, so it's mostly there if you're really struggling and feel like another death is going to make the campaign completely unbearable.

[snow marlin]

I was looking for something exactly like the reincarnate option, though I do see a few ways of it getting absolutely abused on certain servers - mainly ones with traitor mode on. Would the traitor tasks carry over or do they die with the character? Those tasks would become much easier if suddenly you had an entire bot crew available to change into by "accidentally" cycling the airlock with no suit on or getting creative with opioids. This mode would be mostly aimed for the "super serious" teams I assume.

I have a feeling shuttle respawns in an optional mode designed to be harder simply don't have a place anymore. Losing the character being painful is the point of this mode, but shouldn't be crippling if you're prepared for it (have spares). However, having general purpose bots might require even more babysitting them which is boring, so very often you'd get f.e. a bot only skilled in electrical but with absolutely no knowledge on how to do anything medical. Players dying - when you get reincarnated - is the prime time to have someone at least somewhat skilled in medical and weapons or repairs depending on the type of the emergency. I see this could very easily become a spiral of death you can't get out of no matter how many respawns you get, ultimately defeating the purpose of this mode.

I feel the respawning at an outpost mechanic needs a bit more fleshing out / clarification, so I can't give my opinion on it.
How will getting a new character work - do you buy bots at the HR manager and change into them or is it more like the character customization you get at the start of the server? Is it dependent on the rest of the crew which bot you get? What happens if you're the only one with permissions to buy crew and you're currently dead? Does the XP on characters you get scale with difficulty or do you just get enough XP for a few perks in a tree in the later zones "because greens don't survive here"?
Due to design similarities with the "wait it out" mode, both could be implemented, with the reincarnation being an optional (but very welcome) addon.

[summer elm]

I know right lol!

[fast basin]

Do you know what new types of damage is coming?

[boreal grove]

Some kind of infection that's caused by bites, burns, and bleeding, which slowly progresses after the original affliction has been applied. But also tweaks to how existing afflictions are treated. Nothing too complex and I don't have the full details.

[devout path]

So antibiotics will get a new use

[boreal grove]

Ethanol too.

[devout path]

And rum?

One sec, I got to put some rum on my cut

[boreal grove]

Maybe. In theory, both should be usable to disinfect wounds, but alcohol itself I think will cause mild burns when used to treat infection.

[devout path]

It should reduce how fast the infection spreads

Not stops it

Like how you can use antibiotics to reduce husk infection speeds

[boreal grove]

Maybe it'll have a threshold after which it stops working. Just like antibiotics can cure husk infection fully, but only if it hasn't reached a certain stage yet.

[devout path]

And after that stage all it can do is slow it down

[boreal grove]

Yeah.

[coarse edge]

Hello! New player here,
Permadeath already exists.
My boi Doolittle (have no idea who this drunk guy was, I was hoping to make him go from zero to hero and having an assistant was going to be useful) died on one mission and never came back again because I opted to finish the mission instead of restarting.
So permadeath definitely already exists.
Removing the retry button is just going a step further and more into a game mode more akin to “hardcore.”

[tawny mica]

permadeath only exists in single player

Removing the retry button is something I suggest for ironman mode only

[coarse edge]

Oh, really?
As someone who hasn’t played multiplayer, I am unfamiliar with game features in it.

[tawny mica]

If you enable permadeath then also restart whenever someone dies then you have made a wierd choice in server settings

[tawny mica]

Basically bots still permadeath

Players respawn on respawn shuttles

lose a bunch of skills but keep talents

[coarse edge]

And how would perms death exist in multiplayer? Like, how would the current players who lose their avatar due to death be able to keep playing with their buddies on the server? Or would they just be kicked out?
Or maybe they have to wait till the sun reaches an outpost and start with a new avatar with no skills similar to how new hire bots work.

Clearly I have not read the post. 😅
I’ll go read it real quick.

[prime stone]

I do hope permadeath gets implemented as permanently controlling/becoming an existing bot if your character dies, it feels like the most intuitive option

bonus bragging rights if you can make it to the end in multiplayer as your original character

[coarse edge]

After reading the post I like all the options they presented and I think maybe just giving the players/host the power to customize how he wants his server to run death would be best of all worlds.

[prime stone]

additional work on the devs' part, but allowing players to choose how permadeath works would be nice

[coarse edge]

Yes, I have no idea what kind of work load that would put on the devs or the game itself, but giving players more agency is typically seen as a good thing.

[prime stone]

wait it out does feel a bit like reincarnation, though.
only difference is when you take control of the new character

[tawny mica]

I'm not a barodev, but I'd presume you'd have to get character perma death working before you can do bot takeover anyway

so that would be 2 options

[prime stone]

would require drastic changes to respawning, for sure

[coarse edge]

I didn’t fully understand the wait it out portion tbh

[tawny mica]

Wasn't that the no spawning until reaching a station

[coarse edge]

I thought that was option two.

[tawny mica]

Wait it out: This option also means creating a new character – but that can only be done at an outpost, and will cost money just like hiring a new crewmate. Shuttle respawning is disabled. We may use the HR manager screen for buying the new character, so you can respawn as a character that already has a default name and some starting XP and skills.

Thats the one I'd probably run with

either that or the second one

[coarse edge]

Oh is that what the wait it out option was.

[tawny mica]

Shuttle respawning is disabled, so when there are no available bots, you cannot respawn during the round. Reaching an outpost allows for buying a new character, with some starting skills and XP, from the HR manager. Skills and talents of the previous character are lost whether you reincarnate during the round or get a new character the next round.

This option has a few outstanding technical considerations, but it would bring the multiplayer respawning closer to the singleplayer experience, which we might like. What do you think?

2. Create a new character: This option is more straightforward: players who die respawn normally on the shuttle but always lose all skills and talents. Upon death, you are presented with a character creation window to choose the name, appearance and job of your new character.

3. Wait it out: This option also means creating a new character – but that can only be done at an outpost, and will cost money just like hiring a new crewmate. Shuttle respawning is disabled. We may use the HR manager screen for buying the new character, so you can respawn as a character that already has a default name and some starting XP and skills.```

[coarse edge]

Okay, I really like wait it out.

[tawny mica]

I wouldn't mind reincarnate if it has some form of griefer prevention

But I have a feeling it wont

Also

It has the other issue

People will hoard bots

and bots make multiplayer boring

[coarse edge]

I like the idea of being able to have a choice between two or three in server settings.

[tawny mica]

Gotta have your 16 insurance bots

The third option is good because it has starting xp and skills too

So you can get back up

[rocky badge]

The mojang approach, give 3 options that most players want, divide the community into 3 since they can't have all of them

[devout path]

They COULD have them all

[prime stone]

reactive drop alien swarm moment

i think that game lets you control a bot if your character dies

or perhaps it was like singleplayer barotrauma, you can switch between them whenever you want

[naive sphinx]

I would assume the traitor objectives are tied to a character NOT a player. So dying as traitor is balanced, and now you're a nont-traitor bot

tho it does raise a good question... what about quests with multiple traitors? you would now know:

• there is another traitor or more (If you had the "identify co-conspirators" objective)
• WHO the other traitor is (if you already connected)

If you do something like "prevent traitors in multi-char missions from respawning" then you could KNOW there is a traitor just by something like that "Huh my friend cannot respawn right now? but we need them,,, wait were they a traitor, and thus there is ANOTHER TRAITOR ABOARD"

[tawny mica]

Barotrauma creature vote when

[tawny mica]

See thats the issue

It further incentivizes spamming bots

Which actively makes the gameplay worst

Have you ever played on a server with bots

You'll notice as the repair classes you have shit all to do

As security the only thing you get to do is go outside or bully players

[prime stone]

implement the captain needing gym badges to hire more crew

[tawny mica]

Me trying to catch every type of crewmate

Only engineers

What elemental type do you like best

Engineers with radiation

Or security with physical

[fast basin]

Damn I was hoping we'd get electrical burns as well lmao

[pine kelp]

Tweak the assistants nearly whole talent tree

They are so disapointing

Maybe not the clown one but it assumes most players like clown garbage

Yes the aprentice is the only good one, but the clown looks awfull and the first one bots cant even use it

The first one should be some sort of extension of the second one, where maybe you gain yet another tree perk from the chosen specialty

Or maybe assitants can get a way to gain minor skills from other classes (the one you need to unlock before you go further in the main three)

[wet grove]

I am currently working on how I'd rework Assistant, but I think that fits better in #baro-modding , so I'll post it there so that this threat can stay on topic.

[tawny mica]

reapers tax is being removed so I'm assuming its being changed anyway

[fast basin]

This ^

[candid hatch]

Now just hoping it will rework or remove karma

[true pasture]

reapers tax is replaced with fanums tax

everytime you die you get brainrot in real life

[maiden cedar]

assistants are hella good

clown tree is decent, apprentice is really good and greyshirt basically lets them be disposable which is immensely fun

[tawny mica]

funny you mention the last bit in permadeath thread

[maiden cedar]

oh,

TRUE

[pine kelp]

I agree that clown is good for the ones that like it, but men, I very much dont want people wearing clown stuff in my submarine fighting aganist elder creatures and exploring the depths kind of game, its just not how i like barotrauma, Hence why i used "It assumes most people like clown garbage"

[maiden cedar]

fair nuff

the silly nature of baro isn't to everyone's taste

[pine kelp]

Now the greyshirt? I play solo for most of the time, its just useless for bots, and even for players it dosent justify enough men, and "The friends we made" just dosent look like a end tree line uber talent, its something bottom tier, sure a petraptor is cool, but an end of a tree line? Nah
Revenge squad is also very useless for bots

There are different ways we can aproach Disposable but decent + Jack of trades

One way i'd suggest that, is having more talents on the line of "If you have an assistant nearby with a certain specialty, You get X buff"

Example: "If you are a security officer with an assistant with security aprenticeship, you get +reload speed"

[maiden cedar]

does it not mostly already do that

people of the same specialization as you get moderate stat boosts

I think

hold on its been a while since I used apprenticeship

yeah, journeyman does it

it's a tad weak though, I agree on that much

an increase in the boost given would help

[pine kelp]

It does that in the aprenticeship when it comes to hull repair speed, but i mean something much much akin to how the doctor has that "If an assistant is nearby (and it means whitin a certain perimeter) you get bonus medical speed and body drag speed"

[maiden cedar]

Medical Assistance and Emergency Response are seperate talents

Medical Assistance buffs the assistant, not the medic

and Emergency Response also buffs all assistants in the game, aswell as the drag speed buff being completely unrelated to assistants

[pine kelp]

I know, i mean we need more skills like that

I think each class should have at least one skill like that

It would endorse that assitants are the backbone of a submarine

[maiden cedar]

that's the thing though

assistants aren't the backbone

they're extras

the first to toss into the meat grinder

that's their whole shtick

[pine kelp]

Men, then thats just the way other people play

How do i play? 1 of every class followed by an assistant

A security who mans the turret with the riflemen turret bonus + An assistant with the security talent tree specialty

A Mechanical And An engineer + Two assistant each with one mechanical & Engineering loyal talent + For extra individual bonus for mechs and engs
And one extra assistant with the treacherous talent for global bonus to all and a medic talent tree to follow around a medic (Though id only use that if there's a player medic on board, otherwise its pointless)

Thats the way you can meta the buffs to its maximum efficiency

[maiden cedar]

yes, that moderately buffs the entire crew

but like

10 man crews are very rare

outside of bots

[pine kelp]

I mean, other than the captain, its the ONLY thing that buffs the entire crew to that extent

[pine kelp]

Its actually just 6, wich i cut to 5 since sometimes i dont really need an engineer once most of his stuff can be bought end game

Sec + Assistant, Mech + Assistant and the capt

[maiden cedar]

more reasonable, but most of the time you're more likely to see an engineer or a medic than a horde of assistants

player engineers are far more useful than multiple assistants, as are medics

[pine kelp]

Definitively, plus bots are awfull with medic job and i generally dismiss the medic talent tree even though they are very goat

But, mathematically speaking, Two engineers and two mechanics dont outpeform one engineer + assitant and one mechanic + assistant, I tested and can confirm that, definitively not common in MP because it takes coordination, but i took for granteed that most solo players figured out that meta early on

And thats the potential of assistants ONLY BASING OF THEIR SINGLE USEFULL TALENT TREE

THE SINGLE ONE, wich is the aprentice

[maiden cedar]

mathematically how so

like, what numbers are you talking

if you say welding im gonna throw a brick at you

[pine kelp]

Repair & Hukk Speed + Talent Bonus

*Hull

[maiden cedar]

cause welding and repairs ain't all that engineers or mechanics do

there's so much more

hence why I specified player engineer

bots cannot even scratch the surface of engineering

[pine kelp]

Touche

But like, do you need more than one to get all of what they have to offer?

[pine kelp]

They uhm... Honestly can
The only talent that i can think of wich bots are useless with are the greyshirt and most medical talents

[maiden cedar]

https://tenor.com/view/cat-cats-explosion-explodes-cat-explodes-gif-10131775219258044191

spoken like someone who doesn't play enough engineer

wiring, reactor operation

[pine kelp]

Technically i play all roles in solo

[maiden cedar]

and you play less of every role

[pine kelp]

Thats for sure, But what im bringing across here is just the meta i came up wich very much uses the assitant's aprentice ship to bust repairs and skills, and it just angers me that its all based on the single usefull assistant tree, because the other two on my end are pretty garbage

The clown and grey shirt

[maiden cedar]

bots also can't really use clowns

player clowns are useful aswell

[pine kelp]

True, though i never cared because i would refuse to spend poitns on clowns

[maiden cedar]

sure, they can get a few of the flat, passive stat boosts

but they can't do any of the active stuff

aint gonna lie its kinda weird saying assistants are weak when you refuse to use a quarter of the talents for them

[pine kelp]

Here's the thing most skills in the mechanic/Engineer are passive buffs and recipes, hence why, unless you convince me otherwise, there is none of that "This is what a player engineer/mechanic do that bots dosent"

Wich to me, only applies to medics and clowns

[maiden cedar]

but w/e floats your boat

[pine kelp]

I absolutely will refuse to use clown, I told you why, Now its not so much i dont want to use greyshirt, like i said, bots dont benefit from them

But like you said, clowns too need a real player to benefit from

[maiden cedar]

bots don't capitalise on Pyromaniac, Literally any of the crafting talents are a lot more meh on bots, RFA on bots is suicide, bots don't wire and therefore don't make much use of Submarine Of Things. Remote monitor is useless for bots since they can't use reactor PDAs, bots can't use Melodic Respite

as for mechanic... bots don't use fixfoam grenades, status monitors are useless to them, they won't place and use portable pumps, nor will they deconstruct or fabricate, making the scrapper tree much less useful

I speak from experience in multiplayer using bots

I can't say much for singleplayer

so what I say assumes you can't control bots*

bot engineers also won't manually operate reactors, making them way slower than a competent player

frogor to mention that every single talent that adds monitor recipes of any kind is pointless for bots, since they just magically know where damage/items are and don't need to be told or shown where it is

the only advantage bots have over players is their robotic obedience

[pine kelp]

Bots capitalize VERY WELL with the pyromaniac, just give them the Fissile, Tell them to follow your diver in the sea, and they are good to go with that extra burn damage, Though i dont use it like that since i let my diver be acompannied with his security talent bot with the frogmen talent

OBVIOUSLY bots wont wire, BUT YOU WILL when you control them, remember that the solo player PLAYS ALL ROLES
Reactor Recipes dont need to be followed by their crafotr, reactor PDAS are GREAT in the captain hand, sparing you from making a reactor shutdown buttom

Again, YOU are meant ot use the fixfoam grenades
Yes status monitors do get useless, though you can still use them for wrecks
YOU are gonna use portable pumps, Portable pumps are that thing you only upgrade once and only take them out to go wrecking on alien ruins

[maiden cedar]

1. ballast flora
2. I said I play mp only
3. you, are meant to, when a bot is repairing and you're on guns/helm?

[pine kelp]

3. Precisely, When in combat, i just lodge the ship, Take the mech while the bots man the turret, And trow them around, Though most of the situations i need to use a fix foam grenade are when im fighting abyssal creatures, wich need me to manouver, In that sense, i just spread fix foam around, and quicly switch to a bot with a grenade, trow them and go back to my captain in seconds, its really easy if you organize stuff and plan ahead

[maiden cedar]

refer to point no. 2

[pine kelp]

Well, touche on point 2, But here's the thing, they dont exclude the other, do they?

[maiden cedar]

reminder that you are in a thread for a feature that would be multiplayer exclusive

[pine kelp]

Well, here's the thing, i do play 80% solo for most of the time, but like, i am hosting online, its just that nobody joins, But when they join, they can do everything i said above in here in efficiency because they have assistant support

As in, a player NEVER will enter as an assistant, but if they wanna play as a mechanic or an engineering for repairs, they get out competed by bots, and then this goes with what you said

They play in a specific way with their mechanic or engineering, because they dont bother repairing because bots are taking cover of that, they have time to to go around on wires and the combat stuff

Though most of them just wanna join as a security and man the turrets because its fun, i wouldn't want that because bots ALSO outcompete players on turrets most of the time, but like, i let them cause i enjoy company

[maiden cedar]

what

I See assistant players

constantly

like one session I'm in got literally overwhelmed by them

we have a shortage of security

[pine kelp]

Not in my servers, and it would be very pointless

[maiden cedar]

because there are too many assistants

[pine kelp]

You probbably see them because they are auto balanced

[maiden cedar]

no

I see them because they enjoy the role

and they enjoy playing it for what it is

because the meta does not concern them

[pine kelp]

Well then i dont know, but a player assistant is somewhat ilogical unless you really wanna use greyshirt because youre dying a lot or you wanna take clown for life

On my servers, that is ^

[maiden cedar]

you don't pick greyshirt because you're dying a lot

you pick greyshirt so you can start dying a lot

[pine kelp]

I mean, if you are talking about fun factor, sure, but im just talking about the maximum buffs

[maiden cedar]

fun factor is more important than effectiveness imo

a game is designed to be enjoyed

but whatever

that's a tangent in perspective

[pine kelp]

We can agree with that, and on my end, I enjoy efficiency, i enjoy challenge

And

I

DETEST

CHAOS (As in, chaos that cant be fought, like fall guys is designed with a chaos that you just have to embrace in order to have fun)

Wich sadly is what a lot of people associate baro with, so at the end of the day i might be in the wrong foot with all of that

[maiden cedar]

you're the succeed against all odds type

I'm the die trying type

shrimply the way the world goes round

[pine kelp]

But like, if we can reach and agreement, there is a right way to do it, a way that pleases BOTH

And in a way, There is already that, and because like, i went all the way to have a ship with a perfect meta min maxed repairs and weld buffs, it needs the assistant

So like, my complaint is:
My bots cant be effective clowns (and i dont want them to be because i dont like clowns, but thats just an extra)
My bots cant effectively use the greyshirt

Im only really capable of working with 30% of the asistant tree, while with other classes, even minorly, there is some use for them with bots

And i'd say that s a problem specific to only two clases, assitants and medics

Because:
Mechanics can still use do repairs,Mining, and their associated items can be used broadly, like the port pumps for aliens, passive buffs that need no attention yet are crucial, armor and other (scrap cannon is horrible, dont use it)

Engineers are effective bot fighters with the pyromaniac + Fissile, most of their passive buffs arealso great yet need no attention, their PDA's can be used broadly, and you are only using them to make wiring yourself

Secs shoot, go kaboom, dive with frogman, have another assistant with frogman, but the loyal skill in that case wont benefit them like it does with engs and mechs

But even them, yo ucan have your sec with something else other than the frogman, and keep your assistant with the frogmen, because bots can use harpoons freely, but you cant afford them to waste bullets like that

Now, the medic is THE ONLY CLASS i barely ever touched, i know their talents, but the only medics i ever let are players on my servers, Bots just dont handle healing all that well, and while i could switch to a medic bot to get to make a haste rescue, having a medic not benefiting from repair & wekd nade myself using medics as a turret main of all things

[maiden cedar]

medic bot AI has been vastly improved

they're decent now

[pine kelp]

I will see that by myself on my next session, though last i had some weeks ago, they were still crippling my morphine supplies with minor wounds, and they would still NOT CPR AND HELP MY BOTS UNCONSCIOUS BOTS WHILE I WAS BUSY MANOUVERING THE SHIP, FORCING ME TO DIRECT CONTROL THEM MYSELF

Altrough

[maiden cedar]

they don't use meds if your injuries aren't past a certain threshold

[pine kelp]

I suppose that varies from ship to ship, the ship i used is 100% bot friendly so i dont think they had many excuses

[pine kelp]

Amém

Do they still will refuse to help unconcious bots inside ships?

[maiden cedar]

unsure

[pine kelp]

What i feared

But i'll see

[devout path]

NT users would like to disagree

[maiden cedar]

crews larger than 8 would like to disagree

[devout path]

When vanilla medics and NT medics can agree with something...

[maiden cedar]

god gave us 2 medic slots and a max player cap greater than 8

[boreal grove]

God gave every class the ability to use medical items.

[deep python]

I'd unironically go as far as to say that assistants are the best class just because of how absolutely insane EXP gain is: not to mention the ability to get more assistants for free after getting enough.
A friend of mine managed to get 250,000 exp in one round because of them.

[fallen hawk]

Ok
You never need NT

And you don't need medic anyway since you have surgeon

[devout path]

And you never need to play Baro, so what's your point?

[devout path]

Not everyone uses NT Surgery Plus

[fallen hawk]

Lol, didn't knew that surgeon is separate addon

[devout path]

It is

[maiden cedar]

Vanilla balance discussion

Look inside

Mods

[fallen hawk]

ok

[median ether]

> PR you like
> look inside
> mod

[gentle kite]

I agree, and I think it represents a fundamental issue conspicuously absent, both from the poll and this proposed rework, and also this thread almost in its entirety(Which I've now read twice 2.5ish times).

Imo @humble mist phrased it best with :

Excuse me, were there any suggestions about fallen players play for monsters till the end of round or the end of crew?![ThinkFish](https://cdn.discordapp.com/emojis/668815882624958497.webp?size=128 "ThinkFish")

Alas, the current plans do not address that in any way.

Which is not good, because to me it is without a doubt, the thing that will lose the game most of its player-base over time.
The reason is simple: no update matters, if you don't get to play the game - and that goes double for a difficulty update.

Don't get me wrong. I LOVE this game!

Steam says I've clocked nearly 1000 hours in it - which is probably simultaneously an under/over-count due to my undying love for the ❤️ Submarine Editor <3
*Well, that and the Invisibility/Appear offline.... Shhh! * - so it's not that I don't have enough time to play; but rather this:

Often, when I want to play, more specifically when I actually sit down and DO play Baro; I still won't be able to. - Why? Because of death!
Specifically; my characters death. Why!? So our ship and crew survives! Dammit! xD

Don't get me wrong. I don't mind the difficulty, in fact I unironically LOVE it too.
And I don't mind the dying either, because usually the parts before/during/after that MAKE THE GAME.
...but then...
...then comes the dreadful indeterminate waiting period...
AKA the:
OMG! FINALLY! AFTER ALMOST TWO HOURS! FINALLY! I CAN PLAY AGAIN!!
TwoMinutesLater.jpg
YouDied.jpg

You might argue it's entirely a me problem, and I just need to Git gud bro! - and maybe, maybe you'd even be right! xD
Just try this first though: the next time you want to do something, and you can do that thing; Don't. Instead start a 1,5 hour timer and just look at it.
Restart it.
Fun?
~Fin!~

[tawny mica]

Isn't the default respawn shuttle timer 5 minutes

not 1.5 hours

[gentle kite]

@dreamy shale Also made some solid points starting here: #1194654950245023849 message
As did @naive sphinx with a little text based info-graphic, here: #1194654950245023849 message
Here #1194654950245023849 message
And with his comment here: #1194654950245023849 message

[gentle kite]

If you don't mind the repeat skill loss, sure - granted that's something that we can change now; but having played with it for so long, it just feels wrong.
God damn game has our entire crew Stockholm-Syndromed to an option none of us likes xD

[tawny mica]

3 things:

reapers tax is only temporary skill loss
reapers tax is being removed in this upcoming update
you can modify the non repears tax skill loss settings in lobby

[gentle kite]

The 1.5 hours was how long it took on average during the last two sessions before we either restarted, or they made it to port.

[tawny mica]

There is no reasonable reason to wait it out unless you are about to dock

As either way you lose your skills on default settings

and repears tax is a cheap to remove debuff

You'll lose more skills by waiting out basically

As you wont start building them up through the mission again

[gentle kite]

Re 1: ) If it was temporary, which certainly is not how I remember it being , nor any of my crew; then perhaps that's simply just a blunder on our side? In addition to a gross misunderstanding of the mechanics! xD facepalm
Is it possible there was an additional tax as well? I vaguely recall there being two skill debuffs like that?

Re 2: ) Yeah I saw that mentioned in the... hmmm was it the blog post?

Re 3: ) Indeed you can, but we always felt that was kind of lame.
Despite how annoying that death mechanism is/was - _insofar as my crew and I have mistunderstood it (apparently xD ) _ - we've in praxis conditioned ourselves to play in a semi-permadeath mode, because of it. The skill loss itself wasn't the issue; the skill loss gave weight to the death after all. _In addition to the loss of salary. _ >__>

[gentle kite]

Welp, I guess we were mistaken about how that worked then.
Which is just really peculiar - it seems a really strange mistake for all of us to make and not discover.

[tawny mica]

So the way skill loss on death works currently is as so:

You lose a large portion of skills straight up, this can be edited in lobby settings to your liking, even removing it entirely.
You gain reapers tax when you respawn mid round, stacking with each time, reapers tax removes 10% max health and more skills per stack, this can be healed by cigars or using station clinics though, returning those lost skill points and max health.
In the next update however they are supposedly removing reapers tax entirely, so it will just be the portion of skills lost per death without that. I think it was mentioned in that last blogpost yes. Makes me wonder whats happening to that assistant talent that gives reapers tax resistance, and the cigar.

Loss of salary can be reset when you spawn, loss of money is actually just whoever touched your body yoinked it.

They are probably removing reapers tax because its not clear that the additional skill loss even exists

I have seen people get confused as to why they dont have skill back after removing reapers tax

[gentle kite]

I suppose that could be it, perhaps we conflated all of it with the Reapers Tax, thinking it was much stronger than it was?

That's probably it.

[tawny mica]

probably yeah

[gentle kite]

Hmmm but even so, even for all that misunderstanding, I do like the idea of semi-permadeath or proper-permadeath.
But I don't like the part where you are parked for the remainder of the campaign.
It just seems like such massive waste of content and time.

[marsh verge]

it was pretty opaque as a system to me too

[tawny mica]

oh absolutely

Expecting people to wait for a 20 hour campaign in spectator mode is stupid

What will actually happen is people will tell you to restart as soon as 1 guy dies

And if you refuse you've basically just blocked them out from playing with you

Which is going to be sore

I'd rather ironman mode be a crew wipe situation

[gentle kite]

I suppose it works fine for a hardcore, random pick-up-group style of play - but I can't imagine many regular campaigners would enjoy it much.

[gentle kite]

How so? If the entire crew dies/ship sinks; then it is over?

[tawny mica]

Yeah, no respawns during rounds. Optional integration with perma death mode via settings. If entire crew dies you lose campaign

So you can have 1 guy pulling the clutch

and you aren't cucking out the guys who died for an entire campaign

[gentle kite]

Hmmmm... I think a solution for that is obvious, i.e. the one that @humble mist asked about further up in the thread, and which I would strongly suggest aswell:
In some way/shape or form - allow the dead to play!

xD

[tawny mica]

I think a versus situation would be more useful as a separate mode

The enemy designs aren't really suited to versus in the slightest either

But if it was to exist, a separate mode is my opinion

[gentle kite]

That could be fun too

Most of the functions seem to be there for it aswell

you can transfer control to creatures

[tawny mica]

yes you can currently control any creature

I think you'd need to design new creatures for a versus situation though

[gentle kite]

Unless there's some huge caveat I'm missing, it's literally just free content being wasted for no good reason.

[tawny mica]

Think of any game that contains a versus mode then compare the enemies to Barotrauma

Almost all the barotrauma enemies just bite you

for one

[gentle kite]

There's a bunch of ways to remedy that, some of which they seem to be working on themselves.

Last I heard they were working on some kind of nasty Kraken like tentacles which could pierce the hull, and maul the Players.
Possibly with the option of dragging them out of the ship.

Heck we can probably sort of do that with some kind of harpoonized creature already.

We have armor too

so you could make creatures have proper strongpoints and weakspots

One thing I've been trying to do is make a creature use the shellshield.

Since that could potentially allow creatures to block the players path, and force a fight.

Also, ranged creatures are perfectly possible; spinelings for instance.

[gentle kite]

I acknowledge that you are right in this assessment; but Baro has the potential for so much more than just biting enemies xD

[tawny mica]

It does but it also means a bunch more work

Not sure if you'd see that much work put into a funny perma death

[gentle kite]

It doesn't have to be built in a day.

It would just need to enable the basic options first.

Then refinement can come later.

[tawny mica]

A versus thing would be better suited to a different update though

Releasing a half baked rushed version to implement into iron man wont do any favours in the reviews department

[gentle kite]

That is a fair point, and would probably be a boon in almost every way.
Yet at the same time it would also miss my main point - I don't want to play the:

Barotrauma: Submariners VS Fauna Edition!

xD

As fun as that would be, and as much as I would enjoy it; that wouldn't really be Barotrauma to me... hmmm...
In fact, mulling over my previous and now embarrasingly well documented waiting experience/blunder! ( >_____< ) I don't think I would want to play Ironman mode at all, IF it also means potentially losing my crew - for the foreseeable future!

I wouldn't want it to be restricted to a specific mode; and I don't think it has to be a binary One or The Other. Especially not when it could be similar to how @dreamy shale described it above; an option among many!

[gentle kite]

This is also a fair point.

But if it is implemented as an option that is being worked on, or just tested in the unstable branch first; then I don't think there would be a problem.
It doesn't have to happen in one go. It can be incremental.

[devout path]

Well we got #1199349006606807191

[naive sphinx]

On a note: if they're reworking respawns (and maybe the respawn/death screen)

Can it please just be clear?

Like have a bubble saying: "x skills lost, you will gain reapers tax (temporary) if you respawn"

[tawny mica]

they are removing reapers tax entirely

[naive sphinx]

Right right, but just the clarity bit regardless what happens

Like… when does the skill loss apply. That's half of why people got so confused over the reapers tax

[tawny mica]

twice both instant

though will be once instant

when you die

unless you changed server settings, you will have no say

Waiting wont change it

[naive sphinx]

I get this. But I had to learn it by reading the wiki. Rather then just being told

[drifting tartan]

I believe that character resurrection in the game should be materialistic. This means that if the character's body (especially the brain) is intact, they can be revived at a station using special equipment. However, this process would result in the loss of some skills and inflict certain debuffs that would gradually diminish over time. If the character is completely destroyed, resurrection is impossible, and a new character must be created, starting with basic skills. Furthermore, should a character lose a limb, such as a leg, they continue to function in the game as a character with a disability. This is treated as a permanent debuff. In the case of losing a leg, it affects their movement speed, while losing an arm reduces their work efficiency, such as the speed of repairs and other tasks.

My overarching game design concept is that death should not halt gameplay or reduce the player to a mere spectator. Resurrection is always an option, but it comes with significant penalties to make death a highly undesirable outcome.

In summary, fellow party members must preserve the body and safely transport it to a station for resurrection. Naturally, bots should not possess the ability to do this. If all players die, the outcome is either game over or loading from a saved point (this is more relevant to the Iron Will mode concept, but it's interconnected with these ideas, so it's worth mentioning).

Moreover, the more options available in the campaign settings for these conditions, the better. What I've described appeals to me personally. However, others might want to modify these settings, either disabling certain features or making the game more challenging.

[boreal grove]

Creatures like crawlers that tend to consume bodies become the deadliest thing in the game.

[viscid marsh]

What if you lose skill when you die because the last saved version of you needs to grow in a tank for a while so it can't be 100 percent up to date?

[wet grove]

Not really a big fan of the cloning with intact memories thing. It makes the whole setting a lot less deadly and scary

[viscid marsh]

I mean that's what perma death will be for right?

[tawny mica]

cloning would be a diaster for the setting

dont care if its a gameplay boon

[viscid marsh]

Then how do you explain the respawning?

Magic?

Though yes the cloning makes zero sense

[wet grove]

Kinda yes and no. Cloning being part of the respawn mode still implies that it exists in the setting.

And currently the respawning isn't explained by a lore element. It's a gameplay element.

[tawny mica]

you dont

Cloning is an excuse for respawning

By explaining it you are making it canon

Which makes it worst

In barotrauma canon you dont respawn

you die

[viscid marsh]

Ok seems reasonable

Oh btw is there any planed use for cigars if the remove reapers taxe

[tawny mica]

I hope so

[viscid marsh]

Or do they remove the talent

Cuss I can't think of any use

[tawny mica]

There is also an assistant talent which is 100% resistance to reapers tax

[viscid marsh]

Yea

[tawny mica]

Talent does provide medical too

iirc

[viscid marsh]

Yea you do

So they have to maybe give it a different medical item?

Maybe a epi pen that just gives a short +something vitality so you have more time healing n or fighting?

[tawny mica]

that aint a cigar though

[viscid marsh]

But something different cuss I can't think of any good use for the cigar

[tawny mica]

If I was to guess either they dont do anything, or cigar drains pyschosis extra fast

thats my bet

[viscid marsh]

But that's lame

We have aot of anti psychosis stuff

So much even it's a side effect of cigar

[tawny mica]

its also a pretty unproblematic affliction

[viscid marsh]

Yea

I think a epi pen would bee cool

Someone fucking dying ? Not anymore at least for a minute

That's how epi pens work in rl too

[tawny mica]

Wouldn't really fit captain

[viscid marsh]

You have a better idea?

[tawny mica]

Also sounds like better combat stimulant

[viscid marsh]

Hmm yea you right

[tawny mica]

Keep it as a cigar and make cigar cooler

[viscid marsh]

How

[tawny mica]

idk

[viscid marsh]

Yea

[tawny mica]

I could throw out suggestions but they would be unbalanced

[viscid marsh]

Say them

[tawny mica]

Would need to test and see what afflictions could be done

[viscid marsh]

Say ideas

[tawny mica]

no this is a perma death thread

[viscid marsh]

: (

[viscid marsh]

https://discord.com/channels/103209684680323072/1199866331009400962

[gentle kite]

❤️ This sounds awesome to be honest!
I've had plans for the same in my dream game for years!

Hmmm... If I'm not mistaken, some of this was/is possible in the mod Neurotrauma.

[fast basin]

Unless they add in failed clones, as monsterous enmies to fight. Would be cool if everytime someone died, it made a build up/chance for the sub to be attacked by the failed poorly formed clones with memories of the new crew mates

[wet grove]

And from then on you can't clone that crewmate anymore?

[boreal grove]

Cloning distances us, the players, a lot from the Europan society, culturally and emotionally. In the current canon it's people fighting for survival. Doing dangerous jobs, knowing that if something goes wrong, that is it. Losing their friends. Making sacrifices.
But if the lore suddenly gets changed and clones come into play, a disconnect is immediately established between us and them. Europans gain a completely different perspective on death and, by extension, on life.

[tawny mica]

mhm

[boreal grove]

It drastically shifts the setting in a new direction, leaving behind a lot of what we previously knew about the game, from how its story was presented.

[tawny mica]

And before anyone says "how do you explain respawning" again here

[wet grove]

Ye even in star citizen, which is not a horror game, they made it so that cloning is limited. You can be cloned like a few times, but then it's over and you stay dead.

Cloning just takes a lot from the serious consequences of death

The permadeath mode is the canon one 🙂

[boreal grove]

It also introduces some new moral questions we never really had to deal with in real life and which are difficult to talk about in the game, when you're a part of the society which already got over that shift in thinking.

[boreal grove]

The Europan (magazine) has a small article about respawning through surgical reconstruction of some kind, but almost the entire magazine is comedic in nature. It's devs willingly spreading misinformation because it's funny.

[tawny mica]

Deepflix is real trust

[boreal grove]

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/590330382159970304/1100240740505886780/A0002B8A-4E2A-4D92-8B58-61709B9C9258.gif

[wet grove]

Surgically reconstruct your friends from the belly of a crawler now!

[solemn wadi]

stasis bag demand skyrockets

[quick oasis]

Cruelty squad

[fast basin]

I can see emotionally but not society or culturally. Some sci-fi settings do have cloning as a part of their culture (I will be the first to admit, I doubt barotrauma would expand on it, in a way to get the player involved). Your point on their view on life and death would be more proven, more if we got some text about the dead. And also cloning wouldn't excatly break the life and death struggle, the lower class being sent out on these missions could be wondering how many times they have been cloned. Wondering if they are really the real them, or even wondering if their memories have been tampered with, especially with the way the coalition handles thing. A big ol psychosis thing

As for death itself, we are constantly going on missions, many of which are often 100% likely to kill you and your crew, there is not even much change when we bring medical supplies or husk/clown to stations. We are constantly pushed forward so it's not like we build relationships with specific people only really factions (not saying we need to have that just saying, for the sake of like you said distancing). Even with wrecks, there is not much of a feeling that these are people who died doing this or that. Its just dead bodies (which in the devs defense it wouldn't be easy to implement that)

btw just want to be clear, I'm not saying we should do cloning in the game. At least not in the vanilla case. It's not really needed. I'm just giving my 2 cents on how it could be something that doesn't detract as much and could even add

It would be an interesting addition for perma death as way to give a chance at life. It would really suck to be killed by a crewmate that miss-clicked, and have no way to come back BUT the weight of limited lives would still be good (again we dont need explinations for whats ovb a game mechanic, it's just something that could happen)

[halcyon escarp]

permadeath sounds fun

switching to bots when you die

death actually has greater meaning

people not as disposable

[solemn wadi]

kill yourself for free materials

infinite reactor fuel if you are an engineer

[halcyon escarp]

exactly why permadeath should be added

[umbral coral]

add barotrauma plushies

[viscid marsh]

Dude I made a simple joke about some whiered creepypasta I thought up in half a minute and now they are arguing about cloning
What have I done?

[viscid marsh]

https://discord.com/channels/103209684680323072/1200210456418209812

[swift timber]

I personally would not be interested in Permadeath at all. However some of my subscribers and my eldest son would be all for it. So I know there is a percentage that will be receptive to it.

IRONMAN mode is always a win as an option. I know several players will choose it just because of the name and the implication of "hardest" difficulty. I feel only 5% of players will ever use it but it is nice to have for that 5%.

I like options 1 and 3. Either would be acceptable to me.

[prisma creek]

I think it would be nice to have permadeath, but to also have some percentage of the dead character's experience transfer over to the new character. I don't mind the reaper's tax so much, but it would suck to lose all my talents. An option to only lose some of them (or not be way behind if I want to try a different role) would be nice

[prime stone]

that kind of defeats the point of permadeath

you want to respawn and still keep your skills / only lose some of them? just don't enable permadeath

[boreal grove]

That's not a fair line of thinking. Depending on what kind of experience you're going for, having an option to decide on how much death sets you back isn't bad.

It doesn't have to be an "all or nothing" situation.

[prime stone]

good point

[viscid marsh]

Don't they already plan on making customisable death penalty a?

And removing reapers tax

[tawny mica]

First part already exists and second part they will be doing yes

[wet grove]

This or have a level you get set back to depending on how far in a campaign you are.

Think both would work. The methods that transfer you to bots kinda do this already. But I'd prefer a method without bots.

[viscid marsh]

The one where you take over a bot would make sense cuss the bot already has talents and xp

[tawny mica]

I would personally like to see the HR manager utilized for that

I see 2 potential issues with being able to take over bot crewmates.
1 - people will hoard bots and make multiplayer miserable for actual players as they have nothing to do.
2 - griefers are going to have a field day.

I suppose both cancel each other out as if your running pub you'd have to be stupid to have spare bots because of griefers

[wet grove]

Ye we don't want to have the bot storage room in our mp campaign

Opens the cupboard: Hmm, who's skin am I wearing today?

[halcyon escarp]

simply add bot limit

[boreal grove]

There is a bot limit.

[halcyon escarp]

i mean customizable

[tawny mica]

That doesn't at all solve the issues I mentioned

Even a few bots is enough to leave players taskless

[boreal grove]

The devs have been playing around with the idea of a "hidden passenger module". Which, in non-diegetic terms is a bot storage system.

Bots will be added to your crew, but won't appear in gameplay.

Functioning as extra lives without helping you maintain the submarine.

[halcyon escarp]

they get put in cryosleep

like the bots you hired?

or some randomly generated ones

[boreal grove]

The ones you hired. Past some limit, I assume.

[halcyon escarp]

good idea

[tawny mica]

That wouldn't be too bad

[tawny mica]

https://tenor.com/view/i-saw-what-you-deleted-cat-gif-25407007

[raw mauve]

The only potential feature I think could make for interesting plays is reincarnate. Everything else? A complete No.
My crew and I have easily beaten the game more than 4 times, and we've been dying for:

• An actual campaign, with an actual story and consequences for our actions. Including the ending, which we've unfortunately now have gotten bored with.
• More diverse creatures with varying tactics, like the toxin-injecting creature that's been hinted at a long time ago but has been completely left in the dark
• a legitimate newgame+ that increases the difficulty and campaign (which doesn't exist) further, or gives us a reason not to make multiple saves
  To name a few things we wish would have been in the official 1.0 release.
  All of this said: I just do not see how an Ironman mode, or most of the respawning options, would change the diff. nor the fun, for the better. There were too many times where cheats were NEEDED to not softlock ourselves, and too many deaths caused by unavoidable glitches. I can already predict with this combination, that Ironman mode will be touched once and never even mentioned after one week.
  Reincarnate was the only one that piqued my interest, because bots would now have another purpose for being purchased, and would create a stronger incentive to protect their lives.

The idea of customizing the death penalties (even further) is something I'd look forward to, the only thing to note is we basically never play with reaper's tax. With the aforementioned problems it's just caused too many undeserved headaches. I'm not even AGAINST a penalty for death, but when there's bugs like not even being able to pick up your previous set of stun batons from your duffel bag, crashes, losing your genes despite safely leaving the game, again only to name a FEW problems, it just seems like there's bigger things we should be addressing to incentivize people to stay alive (read: keep playing) before we even discuss how to punish the player further.

[boreal grove]

Bugs are being tackled alongside the development of new features. (The stun baton bug has been recently fixed, for example.)

New and updated creatures are coming too. Next big update will be very significant in terms of gameplay content. It's not just permadeath/Ironman stuff.

The ending... remains neglected. But the new difficulty settings could hopefully be applied to loops to effectively create an endless mode, which gets harder with each loop.

As for the actual story in the campaign, I think Barotrauma already achieves most of what it sets out to do. More insight into the daily life of Europans through events would be nice. Maybe one day.

[prime stone]

my dumb suggestions to solve 1 are a) the captain requiring gym badges to be able to hire more crew, or b) using the submarine's max recommended crew as the hard upper limit (for bots)

[tawny mica]

The hard upper limit of a sub might still lead to massive amounts of bots

[molten glacier]

It would be cool if they had the permadeath feature where you respawn at stations but it would be cool. If while you were waiting, there was some other kind of interaction you could have with the match other than spectating.

[viscid marsh]

No you are dead
And when you are dead you can't do shit

[wet grove]

I mean optimally you could start choosing class and talents on your new character, while you are dead to pass the time.

[viscid marsh]

Oh yeah then maybe more character options

But that is secondary

[solemn wadi]

Become a creature and attack your friends >:)

[somber juniper]

Impossible challenge

[jolly kite]

Wait it out campaign, but if the entire crew dies the save file is perma deleted

[viscid marsh]

Just self destructs

[inland ocean]

Hi!

I strongly suggest that there should be an option for permadeath that forces the player to change one's character name, appearance and role while not actually regressing any of their progress. This would be purely for RP reasons, where storywise someone might want their character to stay dead or even change their appearance to show a scar gained in battle but not otherwise be severely punished by sacrificing all of that character's progression.

Permadeath is a fascinating concept from a roleplay PoV with a lot of potential. Actual gameplay and mechanical permadeath, however, can be extremely detrimental to the fun of someone not actively seeking that challenge out. My crew used to do weekly sessions and while I would've loved to have enforced RP permadeath for the campaign I don't think anyone would be interested in losing months of character progression in an instant.

[viscid marsh]

I would be very happy if they make all of the perma death stuff extremely customizable so you can for example just take one of the options that were given and set the skill/talent/xp loss to 0% or tick a box to offr

And they should make all of the options they gave us because why not

[jolly kite]

Reaching an outpost allows for buying a new character, with some starting skills and XP, from the HR

I dont think you will "lose months of character progression in an instant". Depending on how devs will balance the "some starting xp and skills" of the hirable new characters its not gonna be a complete lose of progress, but more of a money lost on buying those.
Also, such feature can make it easier to switch jobs or join on going campaign, if you can buy and reincarnate as a different job with some starting xp. And on top of all that its gonna make death feel much more impactful since it causes additional money loss and gives this slight rp vibe.
Imho reincarnation is an awesome mechanic overall, and is not even going to be some sort of an insane challenge for tryhards only if balanced right.

[inland ocean]

My only problem with this version is the lack of actual character creation explicitly stated to be available for this option. Due to the limited options in the HR store you may be forced to play a character you are simply not interested in. In addition, the mode states you have to wait a full round to even be added back in.

While I do find that option interesting from a gameplay as well as RP PoV, full customization and the option to respawn midround is preferred on the whole.

[jolly kite]

I am quite sure that the HR itself is gonna have a lot of rebalancing or a rework to avoid such problems, on top of the fact that this feature is likely optional. The point is, it doesnt seem to be an insanly challenging experience overall. Just a little more meaningful death penalties that we have right now. Because I dont know what you think about it, but in my opinion the death is just quite boring. You just respawn on a shuttle with a bit less skill points that do nothing but make everything slower.

[inland ocean]

I would hope so, but we will just have to see.

It is best not to assume things.

[inland ocean]

This would be best, but it can be inferred from the way they are giving us three options that for some reason they will not or cannot add all the three.

If it is as simple as that, though- Then yeah I hope they just give us the full toolkit to play around with.

[hearty furnace]

a bit unrelated, but maybe reaper's tax could be retooled into being the skill loss itself? i.e. if you cure the reaper's tax your stats start to come back or something? i like the idea of the reaper's tax, the "trauma from a past life" concept is a cool one

[frigid python]

respawning in mp games makes the game way too easy. mfs should know the sp struggle having to buy bots

[jolly kite]

In fact, respawning in mp games makes it nearly impossible to actually lose a round unless there is a crashing depth

[viscid marsh]

Which is depending on the player intelligence, the amount of Team Killing and the level of trolls a good thing

[tawny mica]

Its also a given because waiting is boring

[jolly kite]

It might be a good thing for the average 55 mods sandbox no password server. But for some actually interesting somewhat challanging experience in a campaign you would at least play with some regular discord party where all those reasons are relevant

[viscid marsh]

yes i completely agree at every point i just dont agree with the statement : "respawning in mp games makes the game way too easy. mfs should know the sp struggle having to buy bots"

this would imply that paul woods would like to remove the respawning option completely and that is in my opinion not a good idea

[jolly kite]

Its gonna be all optional anyways. In fact you can already turn mid round respawns off at the current build

[viscid marsh]

yea

[jolly kite]

That I absolutely adore to do in my campaigns

Adds some spice to every round

[viscid marsh]

i simply dont agree with paul woods

[tawny mica]

Yeah, griefing is bad enough already

Unless you want to lose achievements by turning on cheats to moderate your own game

[viscid marsh]

i agree

[wet grove]

The having to buy bots part also doesn't translate super well to mp.
Singleplayer you don't have to sit out and wait if one character dies. You can switch over to the next.
Forcing some people to be spectators for possible very long amounts of time is not the greatest imo.
Hence why I prefer the option with creating a new character and respawning in the round. Tho I'd prefer some, but not all xp to be lost on making a new character.
And for those who prefer no respawns that option is already there and can be combined with it.

[tawny mica]

You are at the will of the respawn system

[viscid marsh]

i dont understand what you want from me @jolly kite i simply said that i would like to keep the option to respawn

[jolly kite]

Nah, all good

[viscid marsh]

ah ok then this seems to be a misunderstanding on my side

[jolly kite]

I just thought that it was directed to me at first