except CL ends up with like 80% damage wasted as overkill
#Unstable Transit
wild timber
wild timber
so you kill 4 swarmers per friendly unit in the first volley and then everything is in range and shooting you
shell jasper
cl kills the most of anything in a first volley no?
light verge
no
wild timber
missiles
light verge
like 33%
shell jasper
well missiles is op and its own issue
wild timber
CL will pretty much never actually shoot the highest hp guy
light verge
it's gonna get compared to it
shell jasper
I mean out of all the rest cl has best alpha
wild timber
so it's always wasted damage
because the highest hp guys are slower than swarmers and normal enemies
and CL just shoots closest enemy instead of being smart about it
and if the option is only killing normal enemies, it then just becomes killing normal enemies with minimal reload time
light verge
the closest enemy with like 10% remaining health
shell jasper
it's gonna get compared to it
no, cause thats not unique to CL. missiles is better then everything, and cl is worse then everything, comparing cl to missiles is pretty pointless, it needs to compare to the rest I think so in a missiless wordl its not the worst by a ton etc
light verge
rail has less overkill spillage
wild timber
and fighter charge laser vs. other charge lasers, since fighter charge has way higher firerate
light verge
which is why it's better
wild timber
also like
light verge
maybe when cl has splash damage it might be worth
wild timber
i would take default weapon over charge laser lol
light verge
^
shell jasper
but then rapid rail removes too much damage so it doesnt kill fast enough any more or?
light verge
100%
light verge
rng protection
wild timber
rng protection against shields is pretty big, but even without that i would still favor versatile slightly
shell jasper
i would take default weapon over charge laser lol
right, as CL is uniquely bad due to fire rate being so important. wheres the cutoff though?
is cl still bad at 0.75 fire rate instead of 0.5?
wild timber
.
cl also has issues beyond fire rate
your range is super bad compared to snipers, but you move slow as hell
so if there's an enemy sniper in the corner it just picks off like literally 3 entire units before your snipers get in range of their snipers
which is pretty bad
i don't think movespeed is indicated in weapon choices at all atm
wild timber
wait no it is, but it's still buggy iirc
remember when i reported fighter charge laser having weird speed stats on the specs
shell jasper
oh the overriding ones dont show right ya
wild timber
could remove or significantly lower the slow down on cl
charge laser snipe should also honestly just have like
1500 range lol
light verge
fighter speed on charge laser is slow as molasses
light verge
fighter charge laser is still good though
because they have numbers
they can shore up the sniper fire
...god forbid you put it on a frigate or a corvette
snipers can and will oneshot you
almost feels like charge lasers should give a hull multiplier
wild timber
fighter charge works decently well because you still have 12 fighters per unit and the extra range is actually pretty nice for them
shell jasper
well the slow down is its own thing, we can lower it but it wont solve cl at all. perhaps cl just has to baaaaaaaarely be cl and be like... nearly same fire rate
light verge
well the slow down is its own thing, we can lower it but it wont solve cl at all...
or it actually does its job and snipes
prioritizes targets it can one shot that aren't swarmers
wild timber
fighters just disproportionately benefit from a lot of stuff due to their unit count
barrier is another example
light verge
^
wild timber
frigate barrier 💀
shell jasper
ya thats fine fighters are good dont matter much
light verge
frigate barrier is literally just 1 shot thick
wild timber
honestly it's more 2 unit barrier still doesn't feel worth the dps hit
light verge
feels like corvettes should get 2 unit barriers and frigates like 3
but that's kinda fucky to balance tbh
shell jasper
what is the fire rate that would save CLs?
wild timber
well the slow down is its own thing, we can lower it but it wont solve cl at all...
if it keeps dumb targeting, probably like x1.5 current firerate, x1.5 range, no slowdown or like -10% to -20%
shell jasper
err you mean 50% more fire rate and range?
wild timber
yeah
shell jasper
50% more range seems bonkers paired with 50% fire rate
light verge
ultimately depends on how you balance it
shell jasper
but maybe long range is a better niche then high damage I suppose
light verge
i mean
wild timber
range could be anywhere from 25-50%, i don't actually know how much extra range will affect its viability with precision
shell jasper
missiles can get nerfed once other stuffs all in a nice spot
wild timber
simulation builds are like nice for testing but they're still a far cry from actual dev build capabilities of just spawning in upgrades at will
shell jasper
either with that single target being bad setup, or some damage wteak
wild timber
you mentioned that fighter charge has abnormally high firerate compared to other charge, are there any other weird exceptions for charge laser currently?
shell jasper
no
I was just surprised that theirs such a difference for fighres there, the other fighter weapons are only slightly different or the only difference is the range. so that is a huge departure
light verge
anyway as it stands: CL has issues with:
- Dumbfire. This is related to its next problem
- Overkill damage
- Slow navigation speed makes it worse vs its obvious matchup in other games - snipers
- Fire rate and speed makes it possible for 2 squadrons to just outright wipe a sniper after it fires its initial shot; needs to be backed up by other units.
Exceptions:
Fighters - They have the numbers to shore up.
Fire rate isn't also as low as the others. For some reason.
wild timber
in terms of net shots per time
mini rail: net x1.2
charge: net x0.5
missile: net x2.4
i uh, don't actually know how beam firerate works since it's not in the tooltip
shell jasper
maybe missile retargeting should just go away, that kinda makes it even better
light verge
maybe missile retargeting should just go away, that kinda makes it even better
remove retargeting yes and buff individual missile damage; make wasted damage just wasted
wild timber
i think beam needs 1s from enemy kill to blasting new enemy
and additional 1/tick_rate from blasting new enemy to actually dealing the first tick?
so it's a net 1/1.25 = 0.8?
shell jasper
no I think it insta ticks, unless thats not fleet beam
light verge
yeah i think beam needs to transfer targets quickly
shell jasper
ah ya it sjust 0.25 so real fast
I already doubled fire rate on beam for next patch
shell jasper
so its good bit quicker about that
wild timber
that puts it at 0.75s per enemy
so actually higher than minirail potentially? will have to see how it fares
unlikely to keep first ticking even swarmers past stage 10 anyway
shell jasper
first tick is kinda low damage though so not really a fast kill thing still probably
wild timber
first tick is 1.5s out of the ramp time of 4.5s?
shell jasper
lol no
shell jasper
it means ill slap some new numbers on it and see how it goes ><
wild timber
overkill damage?
shell jasper
ya
wild timber
no wait
if you see the replay though
the swarmers don't ever show a damage state
they're either full hp or instantly exploded
shell jasper
hmmmm maybe battle log is just double dipping on beams as they are kinda weird
whats the swarmer health their?
nova light
although part of that was a bug giving it plus like 150 range or something
fervent turret
no, cause thats not unique to CL. missiles is better then everything, and cl is...
I don't agree that missiles are strictly performing better than everything
I tried getting missiles to 30 in mono once or twice during my hull-bomb crusading and never got close
wild timber
they aren't better 100% of the time, just 80% of the time
that sounds more like it's because you're on a hull bomb crusade
fervent turret
I keep saying this but it's a bunch of factors at once at play with this
nova light
I mean out of all the rest cl has best alpha
and wastes all of that on swarmers that fly in first and then die before doing anything to the bigger things you want to actually shoot (and they get owned by snipers)
wild timber
maybe the better word here is beta strike because every weapon always blows its initial volley on swarmers
nova light
but versatile shores up the biggest downsides of railgun better
it comes down to flexibility again, and versatile is better at that
nova light
well the slow down is its own thing, we can lower it but it wont solve cl at all...
slow down is fine if you just added 300 range so they don't get owned by snipers
shell jasper
think it needs more then 300 range prolly, snipers purty big
ah I guess its close. ya ill reduce slow down a little and bump range just not quiiiite that big
nova light
at least make the snipe charge laser a little more range too
shell jasper
ya ill make snipe cl same as snipers
nova light
having your snipers get curbstomped by enemy snipers is lame as hell
shell jasper
or ill be nice and give them like 25 more range then snipers lol
shell jasper
just get 25 range upgrades
nova light
just get 25 range upgrades
you still get owned because by that time you need like 5 charge lasers shots to kill one sniper lol
shell jasper
25 ship upgrades
nova light
🤔
fervent turret
quick railgun test, went with only as much fire rate/range as I felt seemed good and then even hull/damage
falling over at 25 seems like a common thing for me on mono with things being 'less than optimal'
wild timber
nova light
no extra ships
fervent turret
maybe missile retargeting should just go away, that kinda makes it even better
that's gonna change a lot for normal game + fleet though, and having it work differently just for UT seems wonk to me
nova light
maybe missile retargeting should just go away, that kinda makes it even better
no, then it sucks
nova light
unless you buff missiles moderately another way
shell jasper
it just makes it have wasted shots like everything else
nova light
edge case where enemy missiles having retargeting an benefit you
is if they kill your ships and then one missile flies off and hits the base
then the missiles enemies get like half a volley at most instead of a full one
shell jasper
snipe to outrange snipers
wild timber
nice
shell jasper
speed stat still worng on display tho
empty cargo
🤔
wild timber
what range are they going to halt at
shell jasper
1000
wild timber
cruiser charge might be pretty funny then because you can reliably screen
instead of advancing into enemy range
fervent turret
question - are you also going to change how the CL is different for every ship in terms of rof/range/ship speed?
wild timber
fighter was the only abnormal one i thought
shell jasper
its not different for every ship just fihgters
wild timber
everything else is standardized
shell jasper
but for fighters, its getting equalized to this too
fervent turret
ah I thought that was a thing with all weapons
empty cargo
CL act like snipers too now?
shell jasper
fighters have their own, just cause of range really
wild timber
CL act like snipers too now?
cl snipe at least
fervent turret
the thing that popped into my mind just now is how frigates are inexplicably more suicidal with beams than the other ships, in my tests
nova light
fighters are just op
shell jasper
ships have different innate close distances
shell jasper
so ya frigates can go closer but not as close as fighters
wild timber
frigates just explode more because you lose half of your firepower instead of 1/4 when advancing too far
shell jasper
nova light
I mean not specail to them I think corvetttes get closer
beam laser should be a further stopping distance
fervent turret
frigates should be the cagiest of the bunch tbh
shell jasper
beam laser should be a further stopping distance
already is next patch
wild timber
frigates makes sense because they can take more hits before dying, except in UT you die when getting tapped beyond like stage 8 because nobody takes hull upgrades
shell jasper
smh
oh I guess I can buff hull upgrades this patch too
nd have no one take them still
fervent turret
well even if you do take hull upgrades with frigates they get one-tapped anyway
shell jasper
but fun patch notes
nova light
12% -> 15% -> 20% (?)
nova light
make hull upgrades 3% but multiplicative 
shell jasper
but then I have to make a frigate specific barrier mod bah
nova light
so now hull bomb becomes funny
wild timber
arguably every unit could use a decent barrier buff besides fighters anyway
either a buff to barrier or a smaller penalty at least
shell jasper
well barrier should probably just not have downside
nova light
honestly I think extra barrier doesn't actually do anything because of the same old issue of 'most dangerous enemies come in pairs' or shoot in pairs and such
so if you have two barriers then they just both go down
fervent turret
the thing with frigates is they only have the 2 ships but don't have anything near the health of the HC/C, and they don't benefit as well from barriers, so they're the most fragile ship, and then on top of that they charge way too far forward
nova light
well barrier should probably just not have downside
except for fighters
wild timber
well if they shoot in pairs, you still have the brief invulnerability period from first barrier, no?
shell jasper
its got that special thing where the barrier stays alive for a moment
wild timber
or does that still reduce the other barrier anyway
fervent turret
like I don't mind frigate being a fleet-wide support unit, but it has to not move so far ahead
shell jasper
or does that still reduce the other barrier anyway
uh, no idea lol
nova light
well if they shoot in pairs, you still have the brief invulnerability period fro...
I don't know, if it protects the other barrier too then okay, but if not then fucking scam
empty cargo
.
wild timber
does that change anything
fervent turret
I don't think that is any issue
wild timber
barrier should bounce sniper shots back to the sniper
shell jasper
well everything only has 1 barrier right now really so just not sure what the behavior got set as im lookin tho
nova light
well everything only has 1 barrier right now really so just not sure what the be...
barrier grid + barrier mod:
wild timber
you can have multiple barriers in ut with the base perk
it's just a pain in the ass
oh yeah also grid
fervent turret
maybe with barriers just remove it giving you negative stats elsewhere?
nova light
you can have multiple barriers in ut with the base perk
I've had cruisers with like 4 barriers because of that kek
wild timber
even with that, it would be a universal buff to all barriers and still not really address frigates benefitting way less than corvettes/fighters
light verge
the thing with frigates is they only have the 2 ships but don't have anything ne...
in galaxy they had a niche
shell jasper
hmmm, looks like barrier damage stacks up in the invuln window so ya, it only servers to prevent a full like volley if you had ANY barrier, so more is nearly 100% pointless atm
light verge
being the anti-armor ship, with an armor mod
and also missiles
in UT everyone can use missiles so
🤔
nova light
hmmm, looks like barrier damage stacks up in the invuln window so ya, it only se...
yeah, make that... less pointless
fervent turret
in galaxy they had a niche
well yeah in galaxy they can actually take a hit because of armor
something I've said before in UT is that it's a bummer we don't get armor/shield
nova light
why no armor/shields in fleet
shell jasper
well only gonna change that if introduce more barrier things. its fine if barrier is less good on frigates 
wild timber
give corvettes regenerating shields and frigates damage block 🤔
nova light
what about a special barrier that turns on/off for 1s, e.g. 1s normal, 1s 0.001x damage taken, 1s normal etc.
shell jasper
something I've said before in UT is that it's a bummer we don't get armor/shield
feels like a nightmare to have enemy damage types and you have to pickup armor or shields somehow then match things up in the fights too ><
nova light
give corvettes regenerating shields and frigates damage block 🤔
give heavy cruiser regen shields
light verge
damage block is interesting
wild timber
make heavy cruisers explode on death or something, why are they heavy anyway
light verge
that tank mod for ships was funny
nova light
make armor tank in UT scale to 2% of hp instead of 1% to make it more interesting
because currently the 2 -> 1 ships kinda screws you
shell jasper
ok so uh recap for patch if any final thoughts:
- CL: more fire rate, range, move speed and distance, less damage
- Beam: more fire rate and distance
- Barrier: no downside except fighters
light verge
seems fine to me
nova light
cool
shell jasper
- missiles: removed
light verge
CL being the long range option seems nice
i won't miss missiles
it's just too strong
unless you decide to remove retarget instead
which is better i think
shell jasper
not gonan throw in a hasty nerf, will see how this goes and if beam and cl at least kinda ok with mini rail then can figure out the missile nerf
light verge
reasonable
wild timber
does beam affect halt distance atm
shell jasper
so far lol
wild timber
cuz if not it should probably halt farther away
wild timber
oh ok
shell jasper
dunno already changed values in db
wild timber
for railgun you could have the higher base range always so versatile doesn't get that extra bone over rapid
light verge
fair fair
wild timber
but rapid isn't like sucking or anything, just overshadowed
light verge
inb4 remove range from versatile, buff overall range from railguns
light verge
the 2x armor 2x shield makes it imo
wild timber
did snipe also affect firerate i don't remember
shell jasper
snipe is damage and range, qucik was fire rate
wild timber
ok so uh recap for patch if any final thoughts:
- CL: more fire rate, range, mov...
clearly frigate barrier should also just increase damage then
seems like fighter snipe at least has a minor firerate down
shell jasper
oh wait no they had 0.9 fire rate ya
I removed that tho
1.5x range 1.05x damage now
wild timber
pew pew
shell jasper
or 1.3x fire rate rapid
fervent turret
shell jasper
oh barriers only 0.9x damage reduction tahts basically nothing already hrm
wild timber
i guess it could be 15% on fighters, 5% on corvettes, 0 on frigates/cruisers
fervent turret
isn't this weird that close range MLs is less DPS?
shell jasper
huh ya thats dumb
nova light
good point
weird how barrage missile launchers are like way better
'missiles being strong' is actually 'barrage being very strong'
close range... kind of sucks
fervent turret
interesting that I got to a point where fire rate is actually more DPS
shell jasper
ill reduce damage little more on barrage and make close range less close range
wiat barrage is more rnage too wtf, out of my mind
nova light
nah keep that but make close range like way more dps instead
shell jasper
no perfect time to nerf missiles in a smart way, just reduce the damage on those a bit and up the range on close
wild timber
i mean barrage is kind of meant to be more range considering it's not called closer range
shell jasper
well close range is reducing it though so even with no range mod barrage is further :P
fervent turret
-# (btw this is dropping the game below 7 FPS for like 10s at a time lul)
there you go sylv - lower missile projectile count and call it necessary for game performance 😁
shell jasper
lol ya thatd be good too ><
wild timber
that seems more because of burst fire
fervent turret
🤣
unironically though? more damage per missile and less missiles could be a path forward for MLs
but, if it applies to normal battles too swarmer sectors would need a check
seems this is the limit, also it's like 50+ seconds of 1FPS combat
shell jasper
ok the final final changes
- Fleet UT Charge Laser has more fire rate, range, move speed, reduced damage, upgraded versions also improved
- Fleet UT Close Range Missiles fire rate and range increased, Barrage Missiles damage decreased
- Fleet UT Barrier mod now has no downside except on fighters```barrage missiles +range removed, right?
shell jasper
nah I left it just a little reduced
wild timber
o ok
could increase barrier downside for fighters and give corvettes like -5% or something but meh
shell jasper
ya eh, maybe if I bother doing the barrier change to not evaporate with multiple too
wild timber
i think the only other thing was possibly a versatile vs. rapid railgun tweak but that's really whatever
as far as weapon mods go
wild timber
for other stuff besides weapon mods uhhhh
another hull buff? won't change anything though lul
dispersion pulse buff
fervent turret
abilities triggering in 3-4 seconds instead of 6 would be nice
light verge
i'd take weaker abilities if they procced sooner
wild timber
oh yeah @shell jasper did you investigate the bulwark thing? it does seem like the first bulwark in an enemy draft counts as a small, though subsequent ones count as a medium
shell jasper
oh I didnt ill check
nova light
for other stuff besides weapon mods uhhhh
another hull buff? won't change anythi...
like 100 more range
fervent turret
-# what's the point of range upgrades gonna be if we just buff everything to have enough range by default though
river flax
Hull and Range bonuses are shit anyway
I did mention this to Sylv when I was giving feedback for the UT rework and he mentioned there needed to be some filler
Which I agree with and understand
light verge
-# what's the point of range upgrades gonna be if we just buff everything to hav...
we could start with adding tradeoffs then
2x damage or maybe a separate, smaller damage mult that is multiplicative
at the expense of range
also what if hull upgrade didn't just give hp but gave damage reduction instead
like 2% less damage from sources
or they could do both
river flax
What? Why would it give 2% DR if the current bonus is higher effective HP gain
That's a nerf lol
light verge
hull is bad because damage is better
hull doesn't matter anyway after a point because you insta die and overkill damage is always wasted on a single target that you have
read: fighters goated
wild timber
-# what's the point of range upgrades gonna be if we just buff everything to hav...
only charge laser got buffed though, which was a garbage weapon previously anyway
and i guess close range missiles but that was also complete garbage
probably still is too
range still relevant on other stuff like railgun
fleet steppe
one bit of feedback I have on CL is that it's something I'm really hesitant to invest in which gives scaling concerns for later stages- If it can get clogged on skirmishers then I don't want to invest many if any upgrades into the charge laser ship, which will lead to it not keeping up against one shotting enemies (not sure when base 19.6 damage falls off, but wouldn't expect it to hold for too long, it's probably double that with 2 corvettes targetting)
fleet steppe
just had a simulation run where I had a 2x damage and fire rate zone upgrade and it kinda made charge laser feel missile tier in strength, so that ~1.5x buff is probably close to the right place
river flax
Zone upgrade?
urban bridge
the slot buffs
wild timber
gridge
urban bridge
Where are the supposed artifacts going
wherever you selected
supple comet
Thought so but I finished the tutorial run at stage 9 and they are still sitting at 0
urban bridge
Thought so but I finished the tutorial run at stage 9 and they are still sitting...
all 0 here too?
supple comet
Ah actually not
urban bridge
it randomizes which ones you can select
median marlin
Ugh, this is getting so frustrating, all that happens is that my stupid ships sit around shooting at nothing while they get absolutely mulched by fighters and snipers
I don't understand what I'm missing at all
shell jasper
shooting at nothing??
median marlin
I mean they're just slowly taking potshots at random fighters and crap instead of the ships that are actually dangerous
shell jasper
theres no smart targeting anywher ein fleet
nova light
oh yeah that's just how fleet works
shell jasper
its just shoot closest broski
nova light
it also means your fighters are good at blocking
wild timber
who up unstabling they transit
alpine hemlock
wild timber
but today is when charge laser soars
@shell jasper are fighters supposed to drop to .75 firerate or x0.75 (so 1.5)?
shell jasper
hmmmmmmmm
shell jasper
oh no thats right
I made it same as other cl just like all the other fighter weapons
only difference is range
wild timber
gotcha
i may have made an error
so many snipers
think it's joever
i forgot that not only do enemy missiles shred fighters
they also shred barriered units lol
shell jasper
ya missile enemies pretty much counter everything lol
wild timber
a bit stronk since they also keep a high distance like regular snipers
oh yeah i didn't see in the patch notes
was the random extra bulwark thing figured out
shell jasper
nope but im going to check it for this upcoming patch
uh, it doesnt seem to happen for me
ill need to find whatever exact circumstance it is
wild timber
i feel like it might be a rounding issue
so either even or odd # of smalls w/o bulwark, and then bulwark squeezes in as a small somewhere
shell jasper
ah its just the setup being dumb, it adds ships until equal "cost" but its not removing mediums if it gets one light ship away
so its just any time your rolling a medium as last ship added
wild timber
lmao
nova light
so its just any time your rolling a medium as last ship added
bruh
nova light
ya missile enemies pretty much counter everything lol
now you've nerfed our missiles in UT, please nerf enemy missiles too
vital oar
- Fleet UT Barrier mod now has no downside except on fighters
wth?
it had downsodes?
what is it about fighters
fleet steppe
it was a minor damage down on any ship that upgraded to barriers
fighters have the most ships = the most barriers = the highest damage mitigation possible with barriers and they're kinda busted and it's not unwarranted for them to keep the damage penalty
nova light
it used to have -10% damage
fervent turret
is rapid meant to be a DPS loss?
wild timber
hasn't it always been a loss
it might be a bigger loss now since maybe only basic beam got the base damage buffed in the patch though
fervent turret
this is a weird lose... 500/500 base and it gets one-tapped by one single shield sniper?
took all the range upgrades cause I kept noticing my ships not being in range to shoot missile/snipers before they got shot
shell jasper
is rapid meant to be a DPS loss?
always been a loss, its because beam dps shows maxed out damage as the damage, so dps is kinda a weird number on it.
That might be preventing people from taking it though I suppose
wild timber
always been a loss, its because beam dps shows maxed out damage as the damage, s...
regular beam starts at 1.5s and ramps to 4.5s over the next 3s right? what about rapid beam and split beam
depending on rapid's starting number it might be worse than basic beam now that basic's biggest issue of slow target switchrate is fixed
fervent turret
CLs OP
wild timber
haven't run numbers yet but it looks like rapid might only be like a 10% gain in the short run now?
fervent turret
this isn't even slowing down yet, just showing how far it's getting me already
wild timber
also all the charge laser tooltips still say they further reduce speed when they don't
fervent turret
seems this is finally where it dies
nova light
dang
wild timber
i wonder how charge snipe fares in non-mono runs now
because basically they're able to take out snipers before mediums now which is good in mono when everyone is doing it
but in a regular run, that's splitting your fire since the non-charge units will still be shooting the mediums
fervent turret
this run fell over here, I tried to take hull upgrades just enough to keep from being one-shot by mediums but felt pretty cope tbh
these got oneshot after the barriers here
wild timber
hull upgrades omegalul
fervent turret
what's going on here with the bulwark's damage?
I don't have the damage-reduction hull thing going on
nova light
🤔 why's it doing about 50% more damage
fervent turret
ah... the pre-fight screen doesn't include the scaling?
fervent turret
damage logs do match up with that, alright
so now the trouble is - how the hell do I know when I need an armor upgrade to not get one-shot by that, before I can see the fight screen?
nova light
you don't
ignore hull, glass cannon meta we go
or all in on hull bomb
there is no in between
although, if you really want to, calculate the difficulty multiplier for the next fight and then multiply the base stats yourself
fervent turret
or I could ask @shell jasper very nicely for the hovertip here to include the scaling for the next battle
wild timber
i mean there's lots of bugs with hover still
like every charge laser upgrade still saying they reduce speed when they don't
fervent turret
yeah okay maybe this idea of mine is cope...
well, screwed around with hull about as much as last time anyway, as I expected rapid beams fell off a fair bit sooner
fervent turret
bit of a screw-around close range missile test
dire bison
I played some games with cruisers testing CL, settings at Standard/More/Mono/More. Hung out in back, took only DPS upgrades (no hull/range) and bomb/ship improve/2x burst/barrier/exploitation. If I focused damage / attack speed and it wasn't there, I took the other. If neither was there, I rerolled. With snipe, both speed and damage got to 29, and balanced to 33. With quick, speed got to 31, and both damage and balanced to 33. Every loss was from bulwarks doing their job very well lol
Quite happy with the CL changes. It seems that quick is more powerful than snipe... but who knows in actual UT.
wild timber
dang, today has no fighter
why do both of these use the same icons anyway
should just use the regular hull one for x2 health
well uh
that worked a lot better than i thought it would
the nice thing about charge snipe is that the range lets you effectively take advantage of ANY grid slot
usually the 2nd and 3rd column damage ones are shooting yourself in the foot, because it means it takes a lot longer to start actually shooting stuff
kek
it would be nice if the display here also indicated if the weapon was modded
An A/B superscript or something would work
like Q/S for quick/snipe in the top right of the charge laser
holy shit
that is a wild 2nd run of the day
that's gonna be funny af
twilit oak
I think teleport related perks need some adjustments?
At present, the waiting time of Teleport is exactly equal to the shooting interval of enemy snipers.
After teleport, it will immediately become the most hated target(due to doubled damage), and the most likely result is that it has not done anything except attracting a wave of sniper salvos
If the waiting time for teleport is shorter or slightly longer than 2 seconds, the performance may be much better
wild timber
is there a reason why heavy cruisers can't have exactly 40 damage btw
wild timber
I think teleport related perks need some adjustments?
At present, the waiting ti...
enemy targeting does not care about damage buffs or anything whatsoever
they just go for the closest target of the same size category (small or medium)
nova light
tbf teleport is usually on fighters which are the 'anti sniper' bros
wild timber
yeah but snipers would be going for them whether or not they tp since their range is massive
nova light
what it really does is ensure that each sniper can pick off exactly one fighter instead of one fighter eating 10 sniper shots
wild timber
also makes fighter shots completely synchronized which is annoying and wasteful
dire bison
seems to be a death sentence in this galaxy, while was really powerful in the last 2. Not sure what changed.
wild timber
it's always felt like a gamble to me
the grid actually can do it better because it doesn't nuke your entire supply of fighters, but you also don't have control over the placement vs. enemy snipers so it's still a bit meh
fervent turret
this run felt like poo
never offered split beam upgrades, never offered hull bomb stuff, I thought the single hull was for cruiser and not heavy cruiser
and this is just a stupid number of snipers
the missile one especially just wipes my corvettes before they can do anything
alpine hemlock
yeah you cant draft swarmers with laser strats
they mangle you
i like it, good contrast to missile strats where swarmers are food
fervent turret
after the beam buffs swarmers don't even feel like an issue
instantly losing my lights to the missile, and having 4 more snipers behind the bulwark & shotguns, felt like an issue
alpine hemlock
enemy missiles do always suck
but if the swarmers weren't there, you might be able to shoot snipers in time
wild timber
you want normal units on CLs and cruisers on beams
otherwise prioritizing backrow snipers is awful
fleet steppe
New CL feels very pickable, great improvement from how they were before
kind of a pog modifier for the second run of the day
woeful zephyr
missile missile missile missile
nova light
i like it, good contrast to missile strats where swarmers are food
until you get to stage 40 when they have the same strength over you as your fighters have over enemies
except with the added bonus of scaling hp at the same time as damage, which you can't do
dire bison
hp / range upgrades would be more attractive if they were a % increase to current hp / range rather than base.
Don't know if that'd be enough to make them worthwhile for hp except for the bomb ability, but a few ranks of range (instead of a dozen) might solve some problem situations
fervent turret
any one try rapid beam yet?
#1335902304959987733 message
dire bison
I have on vette and HC. vette get slaughtered with either beam in 20-22 rounds. HC made it a bit further, mid 20s I think. HC travels exactly fast enough for the front rank to bulldoze the baddies and the back ranks do nothing, OR the front ranks get wiped out without the backranks there for support, and we have a domino effect into a loss. HC with a dozen or so range boosts helped this, but the dps loss was too much to matter by then. But they are beefier so they last a little longer vs, say, missile/sniper. So, I think range and/or ship speed needs adjusted.
It felt stronger than split beam, which gets erased from not being able to reach distant enemies.
shell jasper
errr, 29 is far haha
fervent turret
errr, 29 is far haha
not as far as 33
shell jasper
33 vs 29 is fine though
wild timber
i think the regular UT run i posted yesterday that got to s21 with beams + CLs was using reg beam
sylv, do you have numbers on the start/end values for regular beam vs. rapid beam?
wild timber
like regular beam was 4.5 total connect time but invisibly started at 1.5s or something
so it ramped over 3s but the initial tick was higher than you'd expect normally
since the 1.5 was a "hidden" value
this was for g6 heavy cruiser beam though, idk if the values translate over exactly to UT values
shell jasper
ok so 4.5 and 1.5 start is the baseline
10 damage
first tick 1.5/4.5*10 = 3.33333 if im mathing
wild timber
yeah so regular beam starts at 33% and ramps to 100% over 3 seconds
what about rapid beam then?
shell jasper
HS = 6.5 ramp 0 start 10 damage
wild timber
i guess i can just spreadsheet the beam values given the base parameters to see when each one pulls ahead and for how long
shell jasper
Rapid = 2.5 start 4.5 total 5 damage = 2.5/4.5 * 5 = 2.77 start
dire bison
Is it based on actual time, or number of ticks? (does attack speed decrease time needed to reach full power)
shell jasper
raw time
ticks just how frequently it does a damage tick wherever it is on timeline
wild timber
ok, so for regular beam, the first tick is actually at 1.75s base damage value i think, since there's no immediate connect time tick
aka 1.5s connect start + 1/tick_rate
let me verify that, then i'll set up a spreadsheet
also sylv is there reason uhh
heavy cruiser has 39.98 damage
instead of 40
dire bison
balance. 40 too OP
wild timber
unironically cuz it can barely not one shot armored guys in like s2
dire bison
:)
shell jasper
no it just worked out that way with ship multipliers
heavy cruiser has 1 weapon which ends up as 4.8 damage mult to keep it same line
and medium weapon is 8.33 damage
wild timber
beam value
wild timber
rounding might be doing it in I spose
LITERALLY unplayable
apparently it's like that in g6 normally too
wild timber
beam value
base_damage * (connect_start + 1/tick_rate) / total_ramp_time
16 * (1.5 + 1/4) / 4.5
= 6.22
ok, my math is correct
@shell jasper requesting clarification on heavy split beam, is it 10 base damage or 20?
cuz dps doubles but
oh is it just due to 2 targets
shell jasper
yup
I feel like heavy split should be a bit too much better then rapid but its just hard to tell those dps numbers are after 6.5 seconds so ><
wild timber
yeah i have my sheet set up now but it's a bit messy
it just displays tick by tick so i want to reformat the data to show damage dealt after X seconds
@shell jasper
as i thought, rapid's gain over normal is generally <10% and then IMMEDIATELY falls behind once rapid reaches full power
you can make a copy and play around with the base parameters here
i think rapid vs. heavy split is pretty fair actually
but uh
wild timber
i would prefer normal beam to rapid a lot of the time LOL
shell jasper
2 targets and range on heavy though sooooooooo
wild timber
normal is just a really appealing middle ground i think atm
i think rapid feels like an antiswarmer backup
if you have no good missile setup
dire bison
split beam slows the ship to 1, from 2, iirc? Getting to the back range baddies is a bloodbath, I remember that
wild timber
yeah
the templates are kind of important, we should compile all of them and get it pinned
dire bison
mhmm
wild timber
i'll prob do that later this week if nobody else does
dire bison
Can we double beam a single target with split, or does one beam turn off?
thinking bulwarks, specifically, since they draw fire
dire bison
So the calcs would assume 100% uptime on two targets? Would be worse results in the field as targets die/reacquire or are not avail
dire bison
Tested fighters with close missiles. 12/15 spawn squares had a bonus.
light verge
enemy missiles are still greater
when one sees a missile, there is no choice but to clench your asscheeks and pray it doesn't drop the deuce
wild timber
i too want missiles with massive range and halt distance
nova light
heavy cruiser has 39.98 damage
bruh I told sylv 'why heavy cruiser slightly less dps than cruiser' and he said to keep it slightly different or something and I was like, bruh
wild timber
im guessing it's another rounding thing like how crew used to scale x1.98 over a sector instead of x2
wow it actually locked in
crazy considering i was just shitposting with as many charge lasers as i could reroll into
wild timber
damn
hard mode is hard
also balance is hard
was basically scraping along for 10 stages until i could finally pick up a charge laser snipe
but then i kept rolling swarmers 😭
wild timber
hmmm
i guess barriers still get eaten during invuln
stacking cruiser barrier + grid barrier did not work well on beam :^(
fleet steppe
CL isn't a throw anymore indeed
alpine hemlock
im not sure if 4x CL works great in a 4 ship type run
but CL and beams has been fine
wild timber
man
backrow missiles are so strong
i think the real strat to climb is to just spam all your rerolls until you get 0-1 missiles
on s18+
amazing
3rd run today looks insane
light verge
based rng
woeful zephyr
does the game force you to have roughly equal numbers of each ship type?
nova light
kind of I think
shell jasper
its weighted
wild timber
ok what are the relevant parameters for a hypothetical table comparing all UT mods
all weapons:
- damage/fire rate/number of shots/x2 modifiers
- range/closest distance
beam:
- tick rate
- ramp time/connect start time
wild timber
yeah
also im looking at default beam numbers now and wow it really does seem nicer than rapid beam in a lot of situations
shell jasper
womp
wild timber
aside from only being a small gain over beam over the first 2 seconds, it looks like normal beam also stays further away which makes it less likely to get shot at while blasting mediums or w/e
shell jasper
uh, normal beam shold be same closest I think?
oh nvm
rapid is closer
oop nvm read it wrong
they both do 525 closest
wild timber
oh i also misread it
shell jasper
heavy is 600
shell jasper
haha
shell jasper
I thiiiiiiiink more damage first 2 seconds is worth it but looking at how MUCH more (or rather how little) maybe it aint
shell jasper
also what is arrival time?
speed
wild timber
ooooh
shell jasper
it closes in faster, but doesnt go closer in total
it doesnt really need that I spose
wild timber
oh and that reminds me, i need to make a list of broken weapon tooltips since they most frequently report wrong speed values
wild timber
extra speed isn't necessarily bad, i think it's like
shell jasper
uh, its just speed values right?
wild timber
good in 60-70% situations and bad in the rest?
shell jasper
thats wrong I mean
wild timber
speed is the only outright wrong one yeah
i think damage upgrades can be a little misleading/hard to compare since they report changing dps per ship instead of total unit dps but that's not a huge deal
and you mentioned before that all ships besides fighter use the same templates, and fighter just changes range values now?
shell jasper
I thiiiink fighter only difference should be range values now yes
oh and closest distance
wild timber
ah right
shell jasper
ah crud I remember why I havent fixed that spped thing yet >< its not that tits speed, its that its anything where the base weapon mod has a stat change like upgrade to the ship and then the next one does, I dont have a way to roll back/off the existing upgrade that gets replaced
wild timber
do you know if the base's fire rate bonus and corvette's fleet fire rate boost affect tick rate
shell jasper
should bite the bullet tho lol
shell jasper
do you know if the base's fire rate bonus and corvette's fleet fire rate boost a...
they dont
wild timber
o
wild timber
yeah the very rare ones
shell jasper
I mean the abilities that is right?
wild timber
abilities yah
wild timber
noice
oh right
i should probably include the initial delay from fire rate in my table comparing the beams
shell jasper
probably tip rapid a bit better
wild timber
normal beam has 2 fire rate and 4 tick rate
so the first tick after locking onto an enemy in range actually happens in 1/fire_rate + 1/tick_rate = 0.75s
shell jasper
still only a slight increase really but big at start
wild timber
yah it do be shredding swarmers pretty well
it's a bit committal though, compared to just finding like an x2 fire rate grid and letting that one unit become the shreddinator
prob fine in regular gameplay though
shell jasper
ya, one will always be the generally better one. just so long as the other aint a total brick
wild timber
wow there's a lot of funny unused mods here
shell jasper
haha few leftovers
wild timber
looks like they were mostly meant to be analogues for cruisers having an armor tank thing
fleet steppe
ok what are the relevant parameters for a hypothetical table comparing all UT mo...
probably obvious but armor vs shield type damage
nova light
regen shields seem a bit strong though
wild timber
hmmm
cruisers are being listed as base 0.95 fire rate if i'm reading this right
but they're 1 fire rate in-game unless there's weird rounding going on
nova light
probably obvious but armor vs shield type damage
there are no mods that can change that, only weapons
shell jasper
cruisers are being listed as base 0.95 fire rate if i'm reading this right
your looking at turret_scale
thats a size scalar on the turret that displays
wild timber
oh
nova light
thats a size scalar on the turret that displays
why's it smaller and not bigger
unless all of them are scaled below 1 for some reason'
wild timber
that was the only value listed as 1.2 on hcruiser so i thought it was just a weird name like arrival time
woeful zephyr
3rd run today looks insane
it's corvette frigate
shell jasper
to find the fire rate yo uhave to reference the weapon in the weapon data
wild timber
ah
shell jasper
so FBallisticCannon1
wild timber
oh so that's why hcruiser is 39.98 instead of 40
nova light
so FBallisticCannon1
ballistic cannon 🤔
nova light
if it doesn't, it should
wild timber
ok now to do the others
then i have to go back for fighter-specific parameters
which seems to be range, closest distance, and also speed
unlimited reroll simulation run when
oh yeah and also # of targets for missiles
shell jasper
I could do a 9000 rerolls modifier lol
fleet steppe
Infinite Rerolls, but each reroll increases difficulty a tiny amount
wild timber
dps value in here seems to not only be per ship
but also per turret
so it's kinda annoying comparing fighter/frigate/corvette damages upgrades to cruiser and heavy cruiser
shell jasper
hmmmm
wild timber
hmm i think my mini rail values are wrong
oh right just not multiplied by damage scale
CL quick is a bit stronk i guess
i'll do fighter specific stuff tomorrow im lazy
base cl having higher baseline dps makes sense, because even though the firerate penalty isn't as bad now, it's still a penalty, so you do a bit more than missile/mini rail and have significantly higher range to compensate
but then cl quick basically eliminates the downside of base cl while being a huge dps increase too
shell jasper
hmmmm ok
wild timber
oh also i forgot to multiply beam by damage scale too lmao
i wanna go check how beam's "actual dps" is if you only spend like 1 second on each target
terse night
I love it. Start with 4 ship types. Options. CL. I go "Well shoot. I guess frig". Next weapon? Again for everyone BUT frig... CL.
wild timber
cruiser is about 80 average DPS with 1 second, 120.88 average DPS with 1.5 seconds, 152 average with 2 seconds
wild timber
I love it. Start with 4 ship types. Options. CL. I go "Well shoot. I guess frig"...
ran out of rerolls?
all charge is actually viable now so it's not the end of the world but it's funny
terse night
when you're putting it on your fighter it is pretty funny though 😉
wild timber
oh yeah fighter cl kinda sucks now i feel
terse night
and I don't get an option to reroll. What you talking about there? Is that something later? Am I missing something?
wild timber
uhh
no button at the top of the screen during choosing upgrades?
oh, i see, it's only there for the latest galaxy
terse night
That'd explain it
wild timber
terse night
yeah. No reroll.
wild timber
also affected by more choices and fewer choices, though i don't remember the details
i think it could be put on the other 2 galaxies too, maybe just with smaller starting #
it's mostly there to counter the problem of having an increased number of ship types each galaxy making it more swingy to get desirable ones
terse night
yeah. I was wondering if I'd make it to 5 for a bit there
terse night
I kinda wish there was a single mode.
Why? memes. It'll either be great or frustrating as hell
wild timber
well mono is there in simulation
but it's very broken because you can get to stage 40+ with it
wild timber
classic
wild timber
ok i saw close range missile and immediately picked it bc big dps number
i forgot that close range missile gets obliterated by shotguns
time to never pick this again
that being said i got mega folded anyway on a shotgunless stage, balance is def hard to push on
alpine hemlock
i mean 18 is a good result
median marlin
When is it best to use your rerolls?
fleet steppe
imo either on weapon selection to force one weapon type (mostly missiles or mostly charge lasers), or to pick preferred ships (weak (heavy) cruisers in your fleet will make your life a lot harder)
nova light
something don't look right
wild timber
isn't it kind of weird that even though frigates are worse than corvettes by default, they also have less total hp
4x30 vs. 2x55
bump it up to 2x65 tbh
nova light
but, but - they lose less of their dps after taking 40 damage! (and lose half of it when taking one shot doing 60 damage)
wild timber
also half barrier value :)
nova light
bump it up to 2x65 tbh
they still somewhat okay in galaxies because armor gives them more hp (and you can just not deploy them lol)
light verge
Frigates in galaxy are bonafide tanks that still have a niche
AT least until you get Tank Cruisers
...in UT though they're kind of crap
They cant fulfill their tank role, fighters deal more damage, absorb more damage and
Lose less damage per loss
The only thing that's marginally a loss for fighters is their speed, but that is also their strength as it enables tanking
Friggies need a niche
fervent turret
they do make a nice CL platform in UT... they're especially neat for going after snipers/missiles instead of mediums while fighters/corvettes handle the frontline work
but that's also sort of just CL OP imo
fervent turret
this got a lot further than I expected
took a ton of cruiser hull hoping to find bomb, never got it
light verge
but that's also sort of just CL OP imo
CL having all the range it needs kinda
Breaks it
But then again
CL not having that range either is also going to break it
fervent turret
hmm
with a full grid of grid upgrades it seems you can still roll grid upgrades but taking them does nothing
just prior to this I took an A1 upgrade for x2 damage & health
also turns out it's end of the run 😅 was kinda just testing close range CL out
fervent turret
snipe CL to compare against
jade zenith
so let's not talk about today ever again xD
wild timber
honestly the real surprise to me is that there are over 1000 people actively doing specifically the eoc version of UT
i'd expect like 2-3x total players who just do perma-stage 7 turn-ins too
shell jasper
ya honestly having it record that stuff so can see how active players are is awesome
well, awesome so long as the numbers high, sad day if we get down to like 10 haha
wild timber
:^(
wild timber
shell jasper
ruination
supple comet
Everytime I pick Charge Laser, I instantly lose
light verge
select the right ships for it
nova light
skill issue charge laser shouldn't suck anymore
light verge
charge lasers are like
significant game changers now
you still need ships to soak up the damage tho
nova light
charge lasers are actually kind of strong now
because they can actually match snipers
light verge
if the cl users are fighters well, they're bound to die
cl cruisers are hilariously bonk
nova light
CL is still best at home on corvettes though
light verge
yeah
jade zenith
so let's not talk about today ever again xD
update, another 300 decided to laugh at me while I was already down xD
woeful zephyr
who is actually getting good ranks this week??
I think all the old strategies are a liability after the update, even if you do throw in some CLs and maybe beam lasers
alpine hemlock
CL are good now, but you dont have to force them
i did ok with missiles and rails today
frigates got burst and ship improvement, but could have been better if not for balance
i still think pure beam or pure kinetic is best
but mixed strats are probably ok too now
cerulean compass
progressively better week for me so far. 7th
nova light
who is actually getting good ranks this week??
they are trolling us with this modifiers
wild timber
i feel like yesterday was actually a kinetic-favored run so i got owned since i've been basically going all in on lasers since patch
light verge
More choices made me happy
Balance did not
I skipped again
But maybe i can do a balance/cl run and have it carry me
fervent turret
tbh I've lost interest in doing non-duo/mono UT
I know where it ends
being outpaced from being unable to keep up with upgrades per ship type
river flax
That’s fine? You only need to get to 10
nova light
aye that's one hell of a fuck you enemy composition
all swarmers in the front row all missiles in the back row
fleet steppe
villainous
fervent turret
mediums are not equal to 2 lights evidence lot number 33
empty cargo
they have the same weight
fervent turret
every position I put here is a losing fight
fervent turret
they have the same weight
yes, this is exactly the problem 🙂
fervent turret
2 lights consistently beat 1 medium
every single time I take early second medium it screws me over
another run I'm just not even interested seeing where it would go after 10
river flax
Then don't?
light verge
you don't understand; this guy is trying to maximize UT
fervent turret
"I'm not having fun"
"then don't"
good talk
fleet steppe
"I take early second medium"
"Then don't?"
We have rerolls, most of these cases can be avoided
woeful zephyr
I think I ran out of rerolls once
fleet steppe
I don't disagree that medium ships tend to make runs worse unless you're all in on them
woeful zephyr
it was back when missile was the only way to go
and I used up all my rerolls and got no missile option 🙁
fleet steppe
Would be nice if upgrades factored into weighting somehow, maybe
woeful zephyr
like at least 3 in a row
fleet steppe
So if you pick unupgraded heavy cruiser, it doesn't add the equivalent two light enemy ships count (at the current difficulty level)
fervent turret
We have rerolls, most of these cases can be avoided
I shouldn't be having to blow rerolls on dodging fleet comps at only stages 4-6
hoarding them for weapon selection and late game fleet comp dodging is the clear optimal play with rerolls
fleet steppe
i disagree- the earlier you can focus your ship layout the better the future will pan out, to me it's not about dodging fleet comps at stages 4-6, it's about preparing to avoid them for the entire run
fervent turret
???
fleet steppe
rerolling for better enemy formations is good but it's not every stage
fervent turret
you can't magically make "too many missiles" or "too many fighters" or "too many bulwarks" just not appear
choices at early stages have nothing to do with that in lategame
fleet steppe
but picking a medium at stage 4-6 means you're just going to have more fighters for the rest of the run, on average?
seems "magic" to me
fervent turret
correct
which is the whole point I started with
mediums are not equal to 2 light enemy spawns.
fleet steppe
I don't disagree that medium ships tend to make runs worse unless you're all in ...
.
fervent turret
I picked it because the alternatives was hoards of fighters and, it being stage 4-6, I had no preparation for dealing with it
fleet steppe
so did you pick any ships at that point
fervent turret
as can be seen in the image, no
fleet steppe
mediums are not equal to 2 lights evidence lot number 33
so you didn't pick a second heavy cruiser
and just started with them
fervent turret
🤦♂️
fleet steppe
idk what to say
fervent turret
obviously I picked a second heavy cruiser
fervent turret
neither am I, I have zero idea what you are getting at
I picked no other ships up to that point/none were offered, and HC was the first pick I could reasonably take without burning a reroll
very puzzled at what the confusion is; anyway, the point is to show why I strongly believe mediums being weighted 1:2 to lights is not fair
how much of that is due to the mono vs quad upgrade gap, I can only speculate; maybe the ratio could be different depending on whether it's quad/duo/mono, I don't know
but I'm not enjoying that "increasing" my fleet strength is straight up detrimental & that the strategy is to dodge taking extra mediums at all costs
dire bison
Would be happy to see the penalty removed for taking mediums, and making mediums less likely to be an option to balance that out a bit.
shell jasper
its not a peanlty perse. the stats on mediums are 2x that of lights
if they counted for 1 light youd be completel out of you r mind to ever not take them and focus upgrades on them
wild timber
you don't need to dodge mediums period, only if you're also refusing to get your units any antiswarm upgrades
an early enemy layout that's more than 50% swarmer/sniper is pretty clearly a grief pick imo
also buff frigates
nova light
lowest total hull 🗿
wild timber
bad at clearing swarmers, bad at screening, bad at even raw hp numbers, bad at barriers
double tap is pretty good but that's about it i think
fervent turret
you don't need to dodge mediums period, only if you're also refusing to get your...
except it's not me "refusing" when it's only stage 4-6
literally have not had any opportunity to get to anti-swarming options
and there's also the thing of trying to focus damage types
wild timber
i reroll first weapon choice pretty frequently
fervent turret
which is also a reason why rerolling ship choice/fleet comps so early is lousy
wild timber
lousy in what context
ut seems pretty clearly balanced to just get to the stage mid-teens, and anything past that is a bonus
also, even if you wipe on an early stage, does it even matter? when you're shooting for a stage 30 non-sim run or whatever, if you let a single ship through it'll one shot your base anyway
so taking damage early on has basically no direct impact on your pushing ability overall
fervent turret
it does if you wind up facing a comp that you can't avoid taking damage on on the way up to stage 30
I've had as many as 4 or 5 of that sometimes
wild timber
is there a reason you have to be able to climb that high on standard runs though
light verge
just because he can probably
but it might be a bit of a lost cause
sylv already said he didn't want to overly complicate UT
wild timber
i mean changing weighting to facilitate more s20+ runs isn't overcomplicating it, it's just missing the point
light verge
i mean changing weighting to facilitate more s20+ runs isn't overcomplicating it...
I say that because the weighting is hardly going to be the last feedback once that's done
fervent turret
getting past 10 is trivial and can be done more or less facerolling your way through it, it's not very intriguing
being beaten by scaling eventually is fine, being beaten by bad positioning or not paying attention on my part is fine
being forced to eat a lose early because of factors I can do little to nothing about - encountering fights where no amount of good positioning will make a difference - is not fine
and in narrowing down what is the likely cause behind those encounters - the change to beam early on helps some, the change to CL helps later, but overall I don't feel the cause is owing to weapon choice; early ML pick can just as well be overwhelmed by too many snipers, so that leaves the logic affecting enemy compositions, and given the comps more or less match your damage types early on, that's usually not such a factor
so that leaves us with enemy balance & the ratio of enemy ships to player ships
positioning can mitigate the balance situation to an extent, but there's nothing I can do about getting flatly outnumbered
wild timber
arguably speaking, if getting past 10 is too trivial now, enemies should scale harder to make it slightly more challenging
the design intent is balanced around getting 10 stages being easy but not a complete faceroll
wild timber
being forced to eat a lose early because of factors I can do little to nothing a...
i'd agree with this if ut didn't get reworked specifically to make the max stage variance irrelevant for consistent gains
the previous iteration where you had to wait for the 1/60th day that could push to stage 12 max instead of stage 11 max for a permanent 6% extra artifacts or whatever was not it
fervent turret
well, there was someone in EOC channel the other day grumbling about not reaching 10 the past few runs, my 'faceroll' might not be so easy for others I guess, but I wouldn't say no to higher challenge to 10 in exchange for more fairness with these pain points
fervent turret
the previous iteration where you had to wait for the 1/60th day that could push ...
and yeah, no, that'd be a bummer too
wild timber
i mean the game could just put snipers/missiles on the backrow always and swarmers up front
there are no exceptional pain points if every stage is equally painful
river flax
getting past 10 is trivial and can be done more or less facerolling your way thr...
And this is the only point that's relevant
shell jasper
im not particularly concerned with balance post stage 10.
But im not opposed to simple changes to make it slightly more fun. It just depends on what tthose would be and how complex they are to do or what they mean for like longer term UT stuff.
Really though its just such a low priority
wild timber
more modifiers would be funny
shell jasper
I do want to add more modifiers if I think of them and they're not crazy
wild timber
gridtastic where every single tile on both your side and the enemy side is a random grid bonus, every round
the 9001 reroll thing but always appearing in conjunction with extreme in normal runs would be pretty funny, though i think boring in practice because you just spam shuffle until you get one with 0 missiles/bulwarks every time
fervent turret
it's understandable UT being lower priority all considered here, especially if each further galaxy down the road has its own new one with new features to play with
nova light
being forced to eat a lose early because of factors I can do little to nothing a...
again, you are supposed to sometimes lose before stage 10
you are not, in fact, supposed to always reach it unless you are suuuuper good at UT
yes, it is possible to get steamrolled before then. cry about it
nova light
the design intent is balanced around getting 10 stages being easy but not a comp...
yeah
fervent turret
you are not, in fact, supposed to always reach it unless you are suuuuper good a...
challenge and deliberate frustration of player agency are not the same thing
nova light
well fair enough
but again, balance past stage 10 is extreme low priority and you'd preferably not faceroll to stage 10 always either
dire bison
Would like to see the Ut grid locked in place so I don't drag it around with a misclick, unless something is planned for that functionality 🙂
alpine hemlock
when you have 3 lights and a medium, taking 2nd medium first ship makes your fleet 4/7 those mediums
taking a small, your fleet is 2/6 that small
so yes, unless that medium is your best upgraded ship, making over half your fleet into it is bad
this is not because mediums are bad
so like, if your first weapon upgrade was on your mediums, taking them is probably good
if not it's probably a mistake
that's also mostly true of smalls but it's less punishing
supple comet
I asume you can grab the achievements via simulation?
light verge
if it doesn't explicitly say that you need to do a few standard rounds for it
in fact
there are achievements you can only obtain via simulation
river flax
the 9001 reroll thing but always appearing in conjunction with extreme in normal...
That's a thing?
shadow spear
What happens if you have Burst and Beam Laser on the same ship type?
wild timber
it just directly multiplies beam damage
fleet steppe
I do want to add more modifiers if I think of them and they're not crazy
Significantly increased/infinite rerolls, but each reroll increases difficulty would be 🤔
Not a full increment/stage in difficulty, but maybe like 1/4-1/5? Up to balancing
Don't know if it would be seen as more tediousness/"gotcha" in practice, but a randomization in upgrade potency for a run-
For example, Hull upgrades 1.9x more powerful, fire rate 0.7x as powerful, damage 0.8x as powerful, range 1.7x as powerful
A run like that might make players reconsider hard skipping on hull upgrades, and stick to faster firing weapons to cope with the reduced fire rate potential
woeful zephyr
that's a lot of nones..
dawn gate
oh wow. Made it to round 20 on the hardest unstable transit difficulty. But I might just be hardcore boned here since I picked a bonus for my fighters to teleport to back of enemy fleet and they get all wiped out within a second somehow despite multiple barriers for my entire fleet stacked
tried 3 times with different setups, all failed including my base getting rekt from 100% to 0%