Additive vs Multiplicative tooltips | Unnamed Space Idle | Page 1

echo turret Jan 29, 2025, 4:02 PM

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Lucky pointed out this screenshot, and I'm not really seeing the difficulty here. So here's a thread that we may come up with a solution!

In response to the screencap, I don't understand the problem. "+0.5" and "+50%" (or "+0.5x" without the "show percents" option ) are both clearly different to me. I also read point 3) as saying that this is what should already be displayed in the tooltips? So I'm not seeing what the downside here is to that syntax

shadow dagger Jan 29, 2025, 4:11 PM

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So "Deep scan tech" is stacking additively and "Pierce Tech" is stacking multiplicatively but there is no way to tell the difference based on the in game description

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It's not the end of the world but it is in fact confusing

echo turret Jan 29, 2025, 4:15 PM

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yeah if deepscan tech read "rare chance +0.025x" that would be clear to me that it's additive and a multiplier (vs an additive flat amount if it were "... +0.025")

shadow dagger Jan 29, 2025, 4:18 PM

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So right now I have few ideas that could help players to differentiate between those:

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Use different font colors for bonuses that stack additively and multiplicatively(but there is an accessibility problem)

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Use different font formats: plain/bold/italic etc

hard lion Jan 29, 2025, 4:48 PM

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Why not just use the words additive and multiplicative? That way I don't need to research what the different color/font format means. A lot of games I play just state what type it is.

slow tree Jan 29, 2025, 4:56 PM

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Not sure if we can easily make that fit everywhere. In tooltips it will probably be ok, but for other places maybe not.
E.g. research and similar places where the description is directly in the UI

hard lion Jan 29, 2025, 5:08 PM

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I was thinking in tooltips

echo turret Jan 29, 2025, 5:09 PM

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yeah just appending (additive) (multiplicative) to the end of the line would work too. Or the line above/below

slow tree Jan 29, 2025, 5:11 PM

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I think only solving it for tooltips will make the non-tooltips even more confusing, though 🤔
Unless there aren't that many of them, and we just add some tooltips to those places so you can see the info there as well

echo turret Jan 29, 2025, 5:11 PM

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what non-tooltips are you thinking of?

slow tree Jan 29, 2025, 5:13 PM

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Hmmmm maybe I'm just imagining something? Can't really easily check everywhere right now. If everything is in tooltips only, it does get easier, at least

echo turret Jan 29, 2025, 5:14 PM

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I cant think of one off the top of my head

slow tree Jan 29, 2025, 5:26 PM

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Synth modules would be one place. There specifically we have enough room for it not to matter I guess -- but I don't have proper overview of all places. Just something to keep vaguely in mind

cunning mango Jan 29, 2025, 8:18 PM

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is that the problem?

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some things ar ejust missing tha tmultiplicative thing, and can find and put those in tooltips

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but I thought the main contention was stuff like this:

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it says x4, but you dont get 20x when you have 5 levels, since its really x3 per level but the base line display adds a 1 otherwise it wouldnt make sense for things like 2x (it would show 1x) etc

slow tree Jan 29, 2025, 8:26 PM

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That's probably biggest issue, I'm just always in edge case mode 😅

cunning mango Jan 29, 2025, 8:28 PM

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if anyone has soultions to this part im all ears, it is kinda dumb

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I just dont have a succinct fix

hard lion Jan 29, 2025, 9:15 PM

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Could that be x3 (additive)? That would make me think that it would add 15x in the end

cunning mango Jan 29, 2025, 9:59 PM

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no, because then a 2x would show 1x on the ugprade and a 1.5x would show 0.5x on the upgrade etc and we have a few places that show 0.5x as thing but its a negative and actually multiples your stat bo 0.5 etc

slow tree Jan 29, 2025, 10:00 PM

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+3x (additive)? 🤔

hard lion Jan 29, 2025, 10:10 PM

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cunning mango no, because then a 2x would show 1x on the ugprade and a 1.5x would show 0.5x on...

Good point

cunning mango Jan 29, 2025, 10:12 PM

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slow tree `+3x (additive)`? 🤔

signs imply universally additive with other + signs haha. I just cant quite think of a full solution

slow tree Jan 29, 2025, 10:19 PM

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There's one of the types that's only used like in 1-2 places, right?

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Would it maybe be possible (not for this patch 😅) to rework that and essentially kill off one of the bonus types, if that gives less room for ambiguity? 🤔

glossy compass Jan 29, 2025, 11:39 PM

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in effect its +300% per lvl right?

cunning mango Jan 29, 2025, 11:52 PM

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yes, and thats how it shows if your on percentages setting, or rather it says "increased 300%" I think

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huh, I wonder if (1)+3x or somethign would work

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that looks dumb typing it out actually nvm lol

glossy compass Jan 30, 2025, 12:18 AM

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The "increase by x% of base" upgrade model has some really difficult visual representation challenges, particularly when you have a bunch multiplier sources structured that way

wanton geode Jan 30, 2025, 2:30 AM

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clearly the solution is to make them more generic, instead of giving a number just do boosts x by a small amount, by a large amount, by a very large amount etc

cunning mango Jan 30, 2025, 2:32 AM

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I like it

rich cairn Jan 30, 2025, 3:58 AM

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cunning mango huh, I wonder if `(1)+3x` or somethign would work

"1+3x" is intelligible, but this "clarity" comes being actually just the % increase in worse formatting. Instead of "+3x" you might as well just say +300%

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if I've specifically clicked an option to get multipliers instead of % (which I have) i dont want this

echo turret Jan 30, 2025, 4:20 AM

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cunning mango but I thought the main contention was stuff like this:

"Max Void Power +3x" makes sense to me
"Max Void Power multiplier increased by 3" would be wordier and also work
"Max Void Power multiplier +3" could work?
Just specifying that it's one multi we're modifying and not the max void power, I guess

echo turret Jan 30, 2025, 4:22 AM

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cunning mango yes, and thats how it shows if your on percentages setting, or rather it says "i...

could also go with "Max Void Power increased by 3x" vs "Max Void Power multiplied by 3x"

echo turret Jan 30, 2025, 4:23 AM

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hard lion Could that be x3 (additive)? That would make me think that it would add 15x in t...

I'm also good with "max void power x3 (additive)" vs "max void power 3x (multiplicative)"

cunning mango Jan 30, 2025, 4:47 AM

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the issue comes back to + indicating overall additive, like with the warp shard or module. THose are weirds since they display percentage when they COULD be +3x I suppose

echo turret Jan 30, 2025, 4:48 AM

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what do you mean overall additive?

cunning mango Jan 30, 2025, 4:48 AM

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check warp speed in stats & info and youll see warp shard and warp module under the additive section

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IE, they are additive with eachother

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although I dont use addit ive like at all lol

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I really should just for variety...

echo turret Jan 30, 2025, 4:50 AM

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do we have multipliers that are multiplicative with themselves but additive with other multipliers?

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because otherwise additive with itself and additive with something else means the same thing 😛

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I think I'm not understanding, actually?

rich cairn Jan 30, 2025, 4:52 AM

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echo turret Jan 30, 2025, 4:53 AM

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echo turret "Max Void Power +3x" makes sense to me "Max Void Power multiplier increased by 3...

would something be wrong here if you used one of those wordings instead of +400%?

rich cairn Jan 30, 2025, 4:53 AM

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i dont think anything goes multipliciative with itself and then additive with anything

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there's additive with other additives

echo turret Jan 30, 2025, 4:55 AM

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if nothing is mixed like that then I don't understand the importance of the distinction of "overall" additive

rich cairn Jan 30, 2025, 4:55 AM

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whoops i meant to put in the shards

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there you can see the two "additive multipliers" in the middle

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adding and then multiplying

echo turret Jan 30, 2025, 4:56 AM

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oh I'm starting to understand

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also, the flex shard is literally the only place this happens isnt it lol

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just nuke it 😛

rich cairn Jan 30, 2025, 4:57 AM

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the "+" means if there are any other "+" for the same thing

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they add, not multiply

stray plover Jan 30, 2025, 4:58 AM

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fundamental research crew skill

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core synergy upgrades

rich cairn Jan 30, 2025, 4:59 AM

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fixture speed is + isnt it?

stray plover Jan 30, 2025, 4:59 AM

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i think thats flat value addition

echo turret Jan 30, 2025, 4:59 AM

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apparently battle amp is

rich cairn Jan 30, 2025, 5:00 AM

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additive multipliers is a way to have multiple bonuses that are individually really good, without having the combination be insane

stray plover Jan 30, 2025, 5:01 AM

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pre 75 compute

echo turret Jan 30, 2025, 5:02 AM

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clicking through things quickly, it's only those two cases. Battle amp and Warp shard/module/flex shard?

rich cairn Jan 30, 2025, 5:02 AM

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for us

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small battle cores also did some of this i think

stray plover Jan 30, 2025, 5:03 AM

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stray plover core synergy upgrades

echo turret Jan 30, 2025, 5:04 AM

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looks like yeah some of the cores use it. I see it on max range and shield damage

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I'm thinking I just dont like the existence of the "additive multipliers" section

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the + was not clueing me into the fact that they are additive with other multipliers that have +'s (partly because it's so rare to run into these?)

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I knew the warp speed ones were additive, but it never connected that the +400% thing was supposed to be telling me that

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"+0.3 to cap damage additive multiplier" instead of "capital damage +30%"? going back to the idea of saying we're increasing a multi instead of increasing the actual damage

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and then for the self-additive, overall multiplicative ones... "rare chance +0.025x" ? because it is actually affecting the stat. And not a seperate multiplier on the stat

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I'm thinking this through as I'm typing it, so no idea if any of this is good yet lol

cunning mango Jan 30, 2025, 5:27 AM

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rich cairn additive multipliers is a way to have multiple bonuses that are individually rea...

ya I need to use that as a tool for deciion making for players more... I just totally ignored the optino in most cases lol.

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I think that is overall the right direction there

echo turret Jan 30, 2025, 5:28 AM

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yeah I think I like that.
I would like it if the overall additive multipliers were explicit about adding to the "additive multiplier" for a stat
then for the tooltips on self-additive, multiple-level upgrades, saying "+0.025x" would tell me that I'm adding that 0.025 per level of this upgrade. And the total value of this tooltip is going to multiply the affected stat.
for the self-multiplicative ones saying "x1.025" would have me expect that each level of this upgrade will increase the value of the affected stat by that value

cunning mango Jan 30, 2025, 5:28 AM

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not a fan of the super verbosity but ya

echo turret Jan 30, 2025, 5:30 AM

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super verbosity being the "additive multiplier" line?

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hmm, I'm failing at thinking of a way around it 😦

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also, the overall additive ones are a bit annoying because I can't see how much they increase the final stat by without doing math myself

cunning mango Jan 30, 2025, 5:47 AM

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need to remember to use additive a bunch sometime. maybe the next compute thinng

echo turret Jan 30, 2025, 5:52 AM

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so mean 😦 I dont want to math, that's your job

rich cairn Jan 30, 2025, 6:19 AM

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not being easily comparable is a big downside

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i would not mind an extra line in the tooltips for "current effective total multiplier"

rich cairn Jan 30, 2025, 6:37 AM

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if the warp shard which is +400%, said "x5 current" when flex shard is not equipped, and then "x2.25 current" when flex was equipped is that more or less confusing

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cunning mango Jan 30, 2025, 6:37 AM

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more

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oh wait if it display no matter what?

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confusing in general I think unfortunately

echo turret Jan 30, 2025, 6:38 AM

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I think it'd raise the question when a lot of people saw it the first time, but be kinda nice to have once you knew what it was

rich cairn Jan 30, 2025, 6:42 AM

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maybe a different word than "current"

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"x5 overall" perhaps

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"x2.25 overall"

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global, effective, total

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words are hard

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effective is decent, I think it's not shocking when something called "effective" changes

wispy tundra Jan 31, 2025, 1:03 PM

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"1x -> 4x (+3x)" is probably what you want for the galaxy bonuses, plus hold shift to see the full bonus (not just the cost)

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or the other way around if you like: "+3x (1x -> 4x)"

rich cairn Jan 31, 2025, 6:33 PM

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So you want this, basically?

Max Void Power x4 (1+3*level)

Current Level 5/5
Current Effect:
Void Power Generation x16
Max Void Power x16```

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i still say that's just a worse way to write the % bonus

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Max Void Power x4 (+300%)

Current Level 5/5
Current Effect:
Void Power Generation x16
Max Void Power x16```

echo turret Jan 31, 2025, 7:18 PM

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ya if we head that direction, I'd much rather see this second version with %s instead

lime olive Jan 31, 2025, 9:01 PM

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yeah that makes sense too

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though I guess we should nuke the 'percents for multiplicative' option

rich cairn Jan 31, 2025, 9:03 PM

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eh, that affects the bottom line multipliers

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the actual final effect of x16 or +1500%

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i suppose you could have a "show both" option that just does x16 (+1500%) everywhere

wispy tundra Feb 1, 2025, 12:24 AM

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rich cairn So you want this, basically? ```Void Power Generation x4 (1+3*level) Max Void Po...

Void Power Generation x1 -> x4
Max Void Power x1 -> x4

Current Level 0/5
Current Effect:
Void Power Generation x1
Max Void Power x1

more like. probably don't need the (3x)/(+300%) when it's presented like this

cunning mango Feb 1, 2025, 12:25 AM

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ooooh thats elegant actually

wispy tundra Feb 1, 2025, 12:25 AM

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I'd kinda like this to be more common elsewhere in the game too, the current bonus -> next bonus

cunning mango Feb 1, 2025, 12:26 AM

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uh, downsides to this?

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otherwise I think this is just the thing to do

wispy tundra Feb 1, 2025, 12:28 AM

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just as long as it's also x1 -> x16 when you hold shift, and changes to like x4 -> x7 when you've already bought one level of it

cunning mango Feb 1, 2025, 12:29 AM

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boooo

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but ya makes sense

wispy tundra Feb 1, 2025, 12:29 AM

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idk how much work it'd be to add stuff like this to other upgrades but that'd be cool too

cunning mango Feb 1, 2025, 12:30 AM

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the system for thats not fantastic so... a bit lol

wispy tundra Feb 1, 2025, 12:30 AM

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especially in the warp tree since when you first upgrade to the second warp tree and you're used to multiplicative bonuses, it can help to show that

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but yeah one thing at a time

echo turret Feb 1, 2025, 12:37 AM

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cunning mango uh, downsides to this?

when I'm at 2/5 and I have to do math to figure out what the per level upgrade is 😦
It's also redundtant with the "current effect:" line

cunning mango Feb 1, 2025, 12:38 AM

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hmmm ya those are unfortunate

echo turret Feb 1, 2025, 12:38 AM

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I like having the per upgrade value shown. What if this was put down in the current effect area instead?

Max Void Power x4

Current Level 0/5
Current Effect:
Void Power Generation x1 -> 4x
Max Void Power x1 -> 4x```
kinda thing?

cunning mango Feb 1, 2025, 12:39 AM

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little weird for that to be under current effect but maybe

echo turret Feb 1, 2025, 12:39 AM

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ya probably rename that

wispy tundra Feb 1, 2025, 12:39 AM

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you could also just remove current effect

echo turret Feb 1, 2025, 12:39 AM

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or just remove it?

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Max Void Power x1

Current Level 0/5
Void Power Generation x1 -> 4x
Max Void Power x1 -> 4x```

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looks ok to me?

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or just call it "effect:" lol

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I guess this doesnt address the overall additive multiplier thing

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but it does help convey if an upgrade is self-additive at least

cunning mango Feb 1, 2025, 12:41 AM

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it clarifies the "I thought it was 4x per level" thing

wispy tundra Feb 1, 2025, 12:42 AM

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Void Power Generation x1 -> x4
Max Void Power x1 -> x4

Current Level 0/5

should be sufficient no?

cunning mango Feb 1, 2025, 12:42 AM

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like one cheif complaint was thinking that upgrade would be 4x and then 8x

cunning mango Feb 1, 2025, 12:42 AM

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wispy tundra ``` Void Power Generation x1 -> x4 Max Void Power x1 -> x4 Current Level 0/5 ``...

hmmmmm, maybe

echo turret Feb 1, 2025, 12:43 AM

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Max Void Power x1.7e21 -> x5.2e22

Current Level ??/5```
how much is buying a current level worth?

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I really dont want to lose the per level information lol

cunning mango Feb 1, 2025, 12:43 AM

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hmmmm

wispy tundra Feb 1, 2025, 12:45 AM

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in that case we're back to adding (+3x)

glossy compass Feb 1, 2025, 12:45 AM

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wispy tundra ``` Void Power Generation x1 -> x4 Max Void Power x1 -> x4 Current Level 0/5 ``...

1x -> 4x (and saying +3x per level) would solve the display confusion. But sylv i do wonder why you chose to use bonuses structured this way?

echo turret Feb 1, 2025, 12:46 AM

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better solution: all upgrades are multiplicative 😛

wispy tundra Feb 1, 2025, 12:46 AM

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if your goal is to avoid confusion, you can never have x4 in isolation. but x3 would also be confusing in isolation, so you need to have x1 -> x4 (+3 per level) or something

echo turret Feb 1, 2025, 12:47 AM

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Max Void Power +3x

Current Level 0/5
Void Power Generation x1 -> 4x
Max Void Power x1 -> 4x```
is perfect imo

glossy compass Feb 1, 2025, 12:48 AM

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yeah, giving an example of the scaling solves the ambiguity of what +3x means

cunning mango Feb 1, 2025, 12:48 AM

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glossy compass 1x -> 4x (and saying +3x per level) would solve the display confusion. But sylv...

structured what way? or as oppsosed to?

echo turret Feb 1, 2025, 12:48 AM

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Max Void Power x3

Current Level 0/5
Void Power Generation x1 -> 3x
Max Void Power x1 -> 3x

if it was multiplicative

wispy tundra Feb 1, 2025, 12:49 AM

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presumably you wouldn't have x1 -> 3x with the x on different sides of the number, that would tremendously upset people

cunning mango Feb 1, 2025, 12:49 AM

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this is all ignoring the cross/universal additiveness that already shows + too T.T

echo turret Feb 1, 2025, 12:49 AM

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Max Void Power additive multiplier +1

Current Level 0/5
Void Power Generation additive multiplier x1 -> x2
Max Void Power additive multiplier x1 -> x2

?

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long tooltip, but they function differently enough that I think being more explicit about what is going on with them is worth it

wispy tundra Feb 1, 2025, 12:50 AM

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what's an additive multiplier

cunning mango Feb 1, 2025, 12:50 AM

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that was the point of the elegant use of + in that case though T.T

wispy tundra Feb 1, 2025, 12:50 AM

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and would that imply the existence of a multiplicative multiplier

echo turret Feb 1, 2025, 12:51 AM

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wispy tundra what's an additive multiplier

the warp speed bonuses from flex/module

wispy tundra Feb 1, 2025, 12:51 AM

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or an additive addifier

echo turret Feb 1, 2025, 12:51 AM

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echo turret Feb 1, 2025, 12:52 AM

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cunning mango that was the point of the elegant use of + in that case though T.T

I didnt catch what it meant >.> so wasn't effective in my case at least

cunning mango Feb 1, 2025, 12:52 AM

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haha ya

glossy compass Feb 1, 2025, 12:53 AM

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cunning mango structured what way? or as oppsosed to?

Essentially having a 'baked in' 1 to the multiple is what is really confusing... it also happens with how OD multiple bonuses are displayed, which is extra difficult to parse out because it is also jumping OoM too

cunning mango Feb 1, 2025, 12:53 AM

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if theres no baked in 1, all of the < 2x appears as a reduction tho

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like if I see synth speed 0.5x that tells me it halves it USIShrug

wispy tundra Feb 1, 2025, 12:54 AM

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tbh there are quite a few things where you get two different types of additive bonuses (crew skill is another example). probably the best way to help with that would be to include the change to the final value

echo turret Feb 1, 2025, 12:54 AM

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ya if I saw "max void power 0.5x" I would be scared of that upgrade 😦

cunning mango Feb 1, 2025, 12:54 AM

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this would be easily solvable I think if I wasnt trying touse + as universally additive though

echo turret Feb 1, 2025, 12:55 AM

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wispy tundra tbh there are quite a few things where you get two different types of additive b...

so like the value of the flex shard tooltip would change depending on wether I had warp module equipped or not?

wispy tundra Feb 1, 2025, 12:55 AM

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is fine I think

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well that's what I was about to say

echo turret Feb 1, 2025, 12:55 AM

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I'm not a big fan of that, but I guess I dont really see anything wrong with it...

wispy tundra Feb 1, 2025, 12:56 AM

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you can't really do it the way I said for that reason, or the flex shard would need a scroll bar for its tooltip

echo turret Feb 1, 2025, 12:56 AM

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cunning mango this would be easily solvable I think if I wasnt trying touse + as universally a...

sounds like the solution is to not do that 😛

wispy tundra Feb 1, 2025, 12:57 AM

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my point is that when you've got flat, additive, and multiplicative bonuses, what we've got is already a pretty good solution

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the trouble at the moment is just bonuses that are multiplicative with other bonuses but additive with themselves, like the galaxy bonuses, because of the whole baked-in x1

echo turret Feb 1, 2025, 12:59 AM

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and the things that are additive with other things

wispy tundra Feb 1, 2025, 12:59 AM

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mm

echo turret Feb 1, 2025, 12:59 AM

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we've got three different mechanics to communicate. Multiplicative, self-additive, globally-additive

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and flat I guess

wispy tundra Feb 1, 2025, 1:00 AM

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at some point though I feel like people learn "ok well +300% warp is not literally going to give me 4x faster warp charge speed"

echo turret Feb 1, 2025, 1:00 AM

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but I think those are fine

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I learned that for warp specifically

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but capital amplifiers came along and I had no idea what was going on

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and it's used a few other places, that I already forget

wispy tundra Feb 1, 2025, 1:01 AM

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ok yeah amps are a bit annoying as well

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since normally core nodes are separate bonuses but amp nodes are additive with core levels as well

echo turret Feb 1, 2025, 1:02 AM

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I thinka lso the cap bat. value is additive to the nodes

rich cairn Feb 1, 2025, 1:59 AM

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I'm not sure I'm actually getting the "->" proposal works as you put points in it

Max Void Power x4

Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Void Power Generation x7 -> x10
Max Void Power x7 -> x10```
is it like this?

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that looks kind of weird

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if i understand what @wispy tundra wanted it was this ```Void Power Generation x7 -> x10
Max Void Power x7 -> x10

Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Void Power Generation x7
Max Void Power x7``` which makes sense i guess

wispy tundra Feb 1, 2025, 2:05 AM

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right. but aleph mentioned that sometimes it might be hard to see what the per level bonus is when the numbers are larger

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which kind of puts us back to having (+300%) or (+3x) or something like that

rich cairn Feb 1, 2025, 2:07 AM

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which puts me back at saying +3x is just a bad way of saying 300%

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% notation has an equivalent "problem" for multiplicative bonuses

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two x4 bonuses is a x7 bonus
two 300% bonuses is a 600% bonus

two x4 bonuses is a x16 bonus
two 300% bonuses is a 1500% bonus

pick your poison

glossy compass Feb 1, 2025, 3:12 AM

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people are used to adding percentages together more than adding multiples together... going +300% -> +600% -> 900%... ect is a very visually intuative progression

Ideally the +x% model/+3x multiplier upgrade model would be avoided by having a different structure...

So for example this is 50 instances of +40% -> +2000% which is a 21x multiplier

glossy compass Feb 1, 2025, 3:32 AM

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it occurs to me that these bonuses are plainly simple even though they follow the same process though.

rich cairn Feb 1, 2025, 3:32 AM

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people generally get it for multipliers less than 2

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because they're used to subconsciously subtracting the 1 or 100%. it's once you get over 1 they lose the plot. 5 levels of 1.2x is 2x all good 5 levels of 2x is 6x headexplode

glossy compass Feb 1, 2025, 3:38 AM

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i wonder why that is 🤔

rich cairn Feb 1, 2025, 3:38 AM

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it's visual

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you can "see" the .2 after the decimal

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.2 times 5 is 1

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we got a total of +1, makes sense

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you can't "see" the 1x bonus in 2x

glossy compass Feb 1, 2025, 3:39 AM

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yeah, selective information processing is the culprit

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and 8 levels of 1.25 that we watch get to 2 at lvl 4/8 is easier to accept being 3 at lvl 8/8

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but thinking about 13 lvls of 1.4 is not comfy math and most people will then assume its 1.4 x 13 not (+.4) x 13 even though its the same nomenclature

rich cairn Feb 1, 2025, 3:42 AM

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so yeah you basically want the % somewhere so you can "see"

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when you know you have 13 levels and you're looking for a number somewhere to multiply by 13

glossy compass Feb 1, 2025, 3:43 AM

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exactly

rich cairn Feb 1, 2025, 3:44 AM

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but i want it as well as not instead of, bceause %'s are gross

glossy compass Feb 1, 2025, 3:44 AM

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alternatively it could be worded as a 0.4x increase but thats going to have its own disambiguation challenges

rich cairn Feb 1, 2025, 3:44 AM

#

so x3 (+200%) or somesuch is my preference

#

yeah but again "x increase" is bad % notation. multipliers should be multipliers

#

x3 (x2 increase) is also ok by me i suppose but idk if it's better

glossy compass Feb 1, 2025, 3:46 AM

#

i like the +40% and then the visual being 1x -> 1.4x, or the +300% visually being 1x -> 4x

#

adding percents greater than 100% does 'look sloppy' though to some extent as its not simplified

rich cairn Feb 1, 2025, 3:47 AM

#

x3 (x2 per level) also works

glossy compass Feb 1, 2025, 3:48 AM

#

so +3x when its multiples greater than 100% seems cleaner than +300%

#

but for 1.4 using +40% looks better than +0.4x

rich cairn Feb 1, 2025, 3:51 AM

#

at least we don't have scientific percents in this game i dont think 1e14% i've seen that in other games and it makes my skin crawl

glossy compass Feb 1, 2025, 3:52 AM

#

For consistency sake i think there are many more fractions of 1 increases than there are multiples of 1 so using precents is the better default, and if you train people to look at +x% from the game start then even the +300%'s of s78 warp will be intuative by then

rich cairn Feb 1, 2025, 3:53 AM

#

switched to % mode (ew) to check and ewww get it off

glossy compass Feb 1, 2025, 3:56 AM

#

So my vote as of now is using something formatted like this...

Void Power Generation +300%
Max Void Power +300%

Current Level 1/5
Current Effect:
Void Power Generation +300%** (x4)** -> +600% (x7)
Max Void Power +300% (x4) -> +600% (x7)

#

if you want to avoid '%' then using +3x is fine, but then it would need to be consistent and use +0.4x ect for other upgrades

rich cairn Feb 1, 2025, 3:59 AM

#

the bottom line multiplier is an important number that deserves pride of place imo

#

if im on multiplier mode that final x4 is what i'm here to see, so idk about it being buried in a bracket inside a comparision

glossy compass Feb 1, 2025, 4:01 AM

#

it could be bolded then, but keeping the visuals consistent is important

#

so the outcome is clear, but the math to get there is too

#

which is where the transparency of understanding how the upgrade works is important

rich cairn Feb 1, 2025, 4:02 AM

#

i like the calrification on the levels, and avoiding % entirely if not on % mode

#

and using only % if you are on percent mode

glossy compass Feb 1, 2025, 4:04 AM

#

so you'd use the +0.4x or +3x

rich cairn Feb 1, 2025, 4:05 AM

#

i guess, but im not thrilled about it

glossy compass Feb 1, 2025, 4:05 AM

#

therein lies the rub

rich cairn Feb 1, 2025, 4:05 AM

#

my distaste for that means i could accept a % in parentheses i guess

glossy compass Feb 1, 2025, 4:06 AM

#

using % to convey the transparence of the math while bolding the multiplier for a clear outcome is the best of both worlds i think

#

and it will for sure leave no doubt as to how the upgrade works

rich cairn Feb 1, 2025, 4:07 AM

#

while were here, what's your version of this for the opposite problem

#

ohh this ones "better"

glossy compass Feb 1, 2025, 4:11 AM

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i see no problem, everything with the (multiplicative) tag is already disambiguated for how to calculate it

rich cairn Feb 1, 2025, 4:11 AM

#

...

glossy compass Feb 1, 2025, 4:12 AM

#

i dont like using % mode, but someone who does so intentioanlly will know how to do the math for it

rich cairn Feb 1, 2025, 4:13 AM

#

if that's ok then is this not job's done?

Max Void Power x4 (additive)

Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Void Power Generation x7
Max Void Power x7```

#

both "issues" are the exact same math problem from the opposite end

glossy compass Feb 1, 2025, 4:14 AM

#

precents naturally lend themselves to adding or multiplying

multipliers being called additive has multiple interpretations is the problem

#

youre right from a math perspective, and the (additive) tag would be better than as is, but its not as intuitive a disambiguation in my opinion

rich cairn Feb 1, 2025, 4:16 AM

#

i feel like "multiply by 25%" is just as (un)intuitive

glossy compass Feb 1, 2025, 4:18 AM

#

the underlying thing here though, is ive never seen anyone here ask what a multaplicative % was supposed to be... bc the vast majority dont use them and those who do understand them. So while i agree to me and you its unintuitive its not a problem for its users

#

the multipliers confusion is a question i have seen from dozens of people so there is undeniable evidence it is confusing to those who use it

rich cairn Feb 1, 2025, 4:20 AM

#

i mostly agree

#

i do think the (multipliciative) situation is also a problem but it's not as bad in practice

glossy compass Feb 1, 2025, 4:24 AM

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The (multiplicative) nodes are crystal clear to me, and ive not seen anyone complain about them either in all my discord interactions, so while im sure some dont find it perfect, its not really a problem and changing it is likely to invite far more confusion than a 'fix' would be helpful

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 1:31 AM

#

just get rid of global additive modifiers Sylv, it's the best solution! 😛

stray plover Feb 6, 2025, 7:27 AM

#

echo turret just get rid of global additive modifiers Sylv, it's the best solution! 😛

6CL
1.1^12=3.13

#

laser boost power 1.75^6=29

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 9:03 AM

#

ok someone please just make the perfect solution so I can put it in, keep getting questions/complaints about this haha

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 9:20 AM

#

we want an equivalent to the (multiplicative)

Proposals include always showing a percent form, giving a formula, giving examples of the results.

In my mind, they key is to show the per-level bonus number in isolation. if that number appears anywhere on the tooltip the problem largely goes away. So I suppose I think the most elegant version is doing that directly:


Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Max Void Power x7```

lime olive Feb 6, 2025, 9:21 AM

#

+3x makes more sense

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 9:21 AM

#

yeah but x goes on the left in our notation and +x3 feels off

lime olive Feb 6, 2025, 9:22 AM

#

err now that does feel off

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 9:27 AM

#

and 3 is not exactly a multiplier anyway. you dont multiply any stat by 3x. you can say you multiply levels by it and add one if you wanted to, but point is it's a bonus not a multiplier. kind of goes to the heart of the entire confusion

#

"additive multiplier" is inherently a little ambiguous 😦

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 4:23 PM

#

the only thing I see ambiguous about that is "what does it add to?" and I'd assume the answer is itself. So the global additives are the only thing that confuse me

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 4:25 PM

#

rich cairn we want an equivalent to the ``(multiplicative)`` Proposals include always show...

so like this?


Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Max Void Power x16```
```Max Void Power x4 (+3 per level)

Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Max Void Power x7```
And what do you propose for the global additive ones?

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 4:52 PM

#

the first one should probably still say (multiplicative)

#

but yeah

#

for global additive, the current format is this


Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Airfryer Speed +8```

#

which i think is ok?

#

there's no multiplier form, only the bonus. because we don't and can't know a multiplier without knowing all the other bonuses

#

like this guy

#

now if you want a way to distinguish additive multipliers from flat additions, i got nothing

#

the current system is "+%" and i don't have a better idea

#

i dont think there are any of those in the game that spell out a "per-level" or "per-point" bonus. like, warp shard does this on a "per-resonance" basis but doesnt give that value

#

but if it existed I guess it would be


Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Airfryer Speed + 40%```

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 5:15 PM

#

rich cairn for global additive, the current format is this ```Airfryer Speed +4 Current L...

do you mean this for the flat additives? Or for the global additive multipliers?

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 5:15 PM

#

flat additive is Airfryer Speed +4, additive mult is Airfryer Speed + 40%

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 5:16 PM

#

rich cairn i dont think there are any of those in the game that spell out a "per-level" or ...

capital amp is one. "per node" but, yeah

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 5:16 PM

#

which is distinct from a normal multipler of x1.4 in percent mode, which is Airfryer Speed 40% with no plus

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 5:16 PM

#

if I turn off %'s and you show me "+40%" and I'm going to assume it's a bug or something

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 5:17 PM

#

this is in the game. warp shard is like that

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 5:17 PM

#

which is the current problem, and why we have to explain why flex shard isn't that great

#

I dont think anyone could grok how capital amps were supposed to work before it was explained?

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 5:19 PM

#

at least it stands out. for us it's "why is this a %" and for the % weirdos it's "why does this have a +"

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 5:20 PM

#

speaking personally, it doesn't stand out
"ok +40%, so 1.4x. Got it" and there's nothing simple I can imagine that would have told me "oh add flex shard to warp shard, then multiply"

#

Max Void Power additive multiplier +1

Current Level 0/5
Void Power Generation additive multiplier x1 -> x2
Max Void Power additive multiplier x1 -> x2```
This was my idea, it woulda made sense to me and made me realize that if two things affected the "additive multiplier" then I would've had to add them

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 5:21 PM

#

i dont have a good fix for that. this system is not great, but it is consistent. every + has meant additive and ~~all~~ many core nodes were like this

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 5:22 PM

#

the current system? or the three examples you were proposing?

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 5:22 PM

#

talking about the shield/armor vulnerabilities

#

on kinetic cannon and the like

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 5:23 PM

#

the current system + represents global additives, and there's nothing in place for self-additives
your system the + represents both global and self-additives, right?

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 5:25 PM

#

current system + 10 is flat additive and + 10% is additive multiplier

#

my system would add x1.5 (+0.5 per [thingy]) to mean as self-additive, if i get what you mean by that

#

sylv wanted to avoid using + because it means additive... but it is additive here. just, locally

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 5:27 PM

#

I'm ignoring flat additives. I havent seen anyone voiced confusion about those

#

Sylv was using + to signify "global additive multipliers", which I havent seen anyone point out before Sylv did here. So I don't think people caught it in the first place

#

he hasnt used + to signify self-additive multipliers. They look exactly like multiplicative multipliers

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 5:28 PM

#

it was specifically + ###%

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 5:28 PM

#

yeah

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 5:28 PM

#

but yeah that's his convention

#

it's not that unusual for +30% and x1.3 to mean different things, in an rpg with lots of buffs and diablo style loot that was throwing both at you constantly, it would be no problem

#

the issue is usi is almost all normal mutlipliers and few additive ones

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 5:32 PM

#

I guess how does all this look in percentage view

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 5:33 PM

#

in percentage view, flat is still Damage + 10 , additive mult is Damage + 10% and normal mult is Damage 10%

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 5:34 PM

#

how do you differentiate global and self additive multis?

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 5:34 PM

#

my Damage x1.5 (+0.5 per [thingy]) would just be Damage 50% (per thingy) because percent view never had the issue

#

because percent view is bonuses not multipliers from the getgo

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 5:35 PM

#

I dont think this is very clear at all o.O

#

uses "increased by 2.5%" to mean both self-additive/multi. And +x% to mean global additive

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 5:36 PM

#

i agree, but apha titan jumped down my throat for saying i thought so 😛

#

just two pages up lol

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 5:36 PM

#

well alpha is wrong, we're agreed 😛

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 5:37 PM

#

i DO agree with them that additive self multiplier in multiplier mode is the far worse and therefore more important problem

#

that's the one sylv gets all the complaints about

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 5:38 PM

#

I think the global additiv emultiplier is only not a "problem" because there are only like 4 of them currently lol

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 5:39 PM

#

anyway the state of the art for the opposite problem (true self-multiplicatives looking weird in percentage mode)

#

is to slap (multiplicative) after them

#

and i think that does mostly handle it

#

speciment badly needs it, as some of them are and some of them arent

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 5:44 PM

#

ok so we agree on the first two? What do you think of the third (because I hate +%)

#


Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Max Void Power x7```
I think I like the (+3 per level) more than (additive)
```Max Void Power x4 per level

Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Max Void Power x16```
what if "x4 per level?" to mirror the other one. 
```Max Void Power global multiplier +3x per level

Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Max Void Power global multiplier +6x```

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 5:45 PM

#

it's not wrong, but i like leaving off the "per level" on the middle multiplicative one

#

makes the distinction louder

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 5:46 PM

#

yeah that sounds like a good idea

#

+3x is already clear enough about it being per level, I think

#

also helps shorten the tooltip lol

#

For the % view?


Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Max Void Power x700%```

```Max Void Power x400% per level

Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Max Void Power x1600%```

```Max Void Power global multiplier +300% per level

Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Max Void Power global multiplier +600%```

#

I guess I threw away what he currently uses, because I dont use the % view and am not fmiliar with the convention lol

#

but "increased by 2.5%" and "increased by 2.5%" need clarification anyway 😛

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 5:48 PM

#

% view is not multipliers

#

it's bonuses exclusively

#

so % view should be:


Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Max Void Power increased 600%```


```Max Void Power increased 400% (multiplicative)

Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Max Void Power increased 1600%```


```Max Void Power global multiplier +300% per level

Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Max Void Power global multiplier +600%```

#

oh i left out a bunch of "increased"

#

i also dont use percentage mode lol

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 5:50 PM

#

the first two feel weird to me, but I don't use % view, so I don't have an opinion 😛

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 5:51 PM

#

there, now with increased increased

#

and now with the math corrected also!

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 5:52 PM

#

lol

#

did anyone above already express problems with these? off to reread the thread

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 5:54 PM

#

one thing, as i was saying to miniboss is the way you have +3x, the x is always to the left. it could be +x3 but i hate that so i would just do +3 per level

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 5:56 PM

#

I was kinda thinking x3 vs +3x was a little extra to help identify it as multi vs additive

#

and "+3 per level" feels off because then it's not a multiplier?

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 5:57 PM

#

well, it's not

#

exactly?

#

"multiplier" isn't a unit

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 5:57 PM

#

yeah... it's weird...

#

are you just saying you'd prefer if the x was consistently on one side? What if +3x vs 3x

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 5:58 PM

#

nothing gets multiplied by 3. except levels

#

no x3 makes sense

#

because the normal context is Damage x3

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 6:00 PM

#

so it's just the x in "+3x per level" that's problematic?
I guess I don't like "+3 per level" because then it looks like a flat thing, even if context it cant be a flat thing

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 6:00 PM

#

technicaly ther "right" spot for the x is outside the bracket x(3 per level)

#

...that also avoids + entirely

#

i was joking but maybe im cooking?

#

Damage x(3 per level) kinda clean

#

it's still a sneaky way to show the bonus instead of a multiplier but maybe that's the only way

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 6:05 PM

#

it's not the worst, but I'm not for it either 😛

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 6:06 PM

#

maybe just dropping the + is ok

#


Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Max Void Power x7```

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 6:11 PM

#

I think that'd confuse me if I saw it for the first time. (+3x per level) still makes the most sense to me

#

or just (3x per level) I guess

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 6:16 PM

#

well then it can be (x3 per level)

#

full circle

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 6:16 PM

#

heh

#

Here's a layout for multiplier view and percent views for self-additive, multiplicative and global-additive multipliers.


Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Max Void Power x7

Max Void Power increased 300% (per level)

Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Max Void Power increased 600%

Max Void Power x4 per level

Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Max Void Power x16


Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Max Void Power increased 1600%

Max Void Power global multiplier +3x per level

Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Max Void Power global multiplier +6x

Max Void Power global multiplier +300% per level

Current Level 2/5
Current Effect:
Max Void Power global multiplier +600%

@wispy tundra @glossy compass I think everyone seems like they'd agree with this? Did I miss any feedback?

#

I think the only thing left that raisins and I disagree on is what to put in the parenthesis of the self-additive multiplier in multiplier view?

#

you could probably strip "per level" from the self-additive percent view, but I dont think it's confusing either

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 8:20 PM

#

I like that there's only a + in the one that's additive with other effects, so sylv has his convention. i do have some quibbles. I still don't want 3x, would prefer the consistent left side x3. right side x facilitating +3x is not a benefit imo, because i dont want to write that

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 8:20 PM

#

I think + on the per level can be fine

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 8:20 PM

#

haha speak of the devil

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 8:20 PM

#

I was tryng to avoid it in general for like the main part

#

my only quibble iwith that ist up above is "global multiplier" is so long lol

#

and I cant beleiieve people didnt understand the + stuff :*( all my work on that down the drain

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 8:22 PM

#

um

#

"scaler"?

#

Max Void Power scaler +600%

#

but like i was saying, "multiplier +3x" is redundant

#

if you want to go from x3 to x6 you "increase the multiplier by 3" not "increase the multiplier by 3 times"

#

you arent adding "3x" you're adding "3" !

#

so Max Void Power global multiplier +3 per level is fine imo

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 8:28 PM

#

ok ignoring % mode for now. if we use + in the per level part:
I think with the above examples we jus tuse the simple format and go:
normal self additive: Max Void Power x4 (+3 per level)
normal self multiplicative: Max Void Power x4 (x3 per level) so next level is 12 etc

#

is the additive ones being percentage kinda confusing?

#

IE do we need to swap that to not percentage or does it work as is?

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 8:29 PM

#

second one should be Max Void Power x4 (x4 per level) if you want to do it that way

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 8:29 PM

#

errr ya its however much it actually does it by lol

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 8:30 PM

#

currently in game that's just (multiplicative) which i think is fine for that case

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 8:30 PM

#

Yeah but if we're going to show per level in general might as well just do that there too

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 8:31 PM

#

fair

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 8:31 PM

#

And dang I really can't think of anything better than the "global multiplier" you guys settled on T.T

#

its so long sounding :*(

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 8:32 PM

#

you basically have to learn what it means at some point, so you can go a little jargon-y

#

how about "amp"

#

Max Void Power amp +3 per level

#

Max Void Power mult +3 per level

#

something like that

slow tree Feb 6, 2025, 8:34 PM

#

That will without a doubt create more questions than the current setup, about what those abbreviations mean

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 8:34 PM

#

"multiplier" then

slow tree Feb 6, 2025, 8:35 PM

#

"amp" is the main tricky one to get

#

My vote would still be killing off one/more of the bonus types to help avoid the issue 😅

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 8:35 PM

#

"Max Void Power x2" and "Max Void Power multiplier +2" is arbitrary but it's still a distinction. im not sure how much more work global is doing for "Max Void Power global multiplier +2"

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 8:36 PM

#

slow tree My vote would still be killing off one/more of the bonus types to help avoid the...

compute needs a full rebalance without additive

slow tree Feb 6, 2025, 8:36 PM

#

Yeah but that's just you-work. Ezpz for the rest of us

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 8:37 PM

#

maybe I can add a tutorial that pops up the first like 8 times you use an additive mult and we keep it as + only

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 8:37 PM

#

assumes we can and will read

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 8:37 PM

#

hey 8 times is alot to ignore

slow tree Feb 6, 2025, 8:39 PM

#

Hm, this would be a bit of a tangent/require more than just rephrasing -- but if Stats & Info had a custom "How things work" section, there could be short-form things in the description (be it "self-multiplicative", "multiplicative", "global", "additive", etc), and then have it described there.

I don't really think that phrasing alone is enough to make people understand the difference between the various bonus types -- but at least with a "How things work" section, the information would be possible to find in-game

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 8:40 PM

#

I think for the self stuff, the solution a few up is basically perfect.
But ya the others might benefit from that

slow tree Feb 6, 2025, 8:41 PM

#

Yeah I think with phrasing changes, you can disambiguate between some things, but I think there are just too many different bonus types for them all to be easy grokkable

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 8:42 PM

#

hmmmm

#

ah yes thank you past mee thats helpful with the question marks

slow tree Feb 6, 2025, 8:43 PM

#

The Riddler was there

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 8:43 PM

#

the function that does the spit out for what they do is kind a gross blargh

#

hmmm is (+3/level) and (x3/level) as good as/better then per level?

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 8:50 PM

#

you use per for crew, but either is fine to me

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 8:51 PM

#

slow tree Yeah but that's just you-work. Ezpz for the rest of us

this my take 😛

#

I see no problem with / instead of per

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 8:55 PM

#

cunning mango And dang I really can't think of anything better than the "global multiplier" yo...

the way I see it is "you are adding a number to something that is multiplied with all the other multipliers" and "something that is multiplied" is a multiplier.
if someone can rephrase that sentence maybe we could come up with something better than "global multiplier"

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 9:04 PM

#

hmmm the name of the percentages setting is wrong now lol

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 9:06 PM

#

lol

#

"show percents for modifiers"

#

"show percents for multipliers" probably also works

lime olive Feb 6, 2025, 9:08 PM

#

just remove it 🤔

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 9:09 PM

#

but poor % users :*(

#

I know theres at least like, 2 people using that

lime olive Feb 6, 2025, 9:10 PM

#

is there a way to make it work in new system though

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 9:11 PM

#

ya I just gave two alternates!

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 9:11 PM

#

should be fine yes, maybe kinda weird but eh

#

hmmmm, should the x4 all turn into 4x?

lime olive Feb 6, 2025, 9:14 PM

#

lol

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 9:17 PM

#

#

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 9:19 PM

#

cunning mango hmmmm, should the x4 all turn into 4x?

I dont see a difference between x4 and 4x. It looks like there was a preference for x4 though? and consistency is good!

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 9:20 PM

#

slow tree Feb 6, 2025, 9:20 PM

#

cunning mango

I think this is slightly cleaner looking

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 9:20 PM

#

echo turret I dont see a difference between x4 and 4x. It looks like there was a preference ...

the difference would be that I can do +4x but cant really do +x4 lol

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 9:20 PM

#

I kinda prefer the /
not like a strong preference. But kinda.

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 9:20 PM

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space maybe better?

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though then we are barely shorter then Per Level lol

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 9:21 PM

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two whole characters! That's like 40% percent or something

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 9:21 PM

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cunning mango

space is nicer

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 9:21 PM

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rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 9:21 PM

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about this, did you forget to subtract the 1 for the additive ones

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 9:21 PM

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hmmm I do like Per Level I thiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiink

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 9:21 PM

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or are you getting to that

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 9:22 PM

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ah ya its all the same logic right now just figuring out format

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 9:22 PM

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+x1.05 would definitely be awful. +1.05 makes sense to me. +1.05x would be my preference (but again, not a strong one)

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 9:23 PM

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it will be +0.05 for this one, which is a good example of why the x makes no sense

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 9:23 PM

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I disagree 😛

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 9:24 PM

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oh ya an x on there is misleading a little I think

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 9:24 PM

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x1.05 (+0.05x / level). what are you mutliplying by 0.05

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the answer is levels but that's not a good reason to have an x

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 9:24 PM

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neither seem confusing to me though, so +0.05 is good too

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 9:27 PM

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does Global Mult make it sound like a different stat almost?

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 9:28 PM

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I think so. Definitely in conjuction with other stats not saying that, I'd at least something different is happening

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(Lucky's idea of adding a thing to stats&info to explain different multi's could be a good idea too)

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 9:28 PM

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err what about the ones that are already called multiplier

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 9:29 PM

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I'd remove the word "multiplier" if we arent on a globa-additive multiplier imo

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 9:29 PM

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rich cairn err what about the ones that are already called multiplier

pray they dont have an additive stat anywhere?

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 9:29 PM

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kek

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 9:29 PM

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or that

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 9:29 PM

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so the stats screen calls them additive multipliers. Maybe just use that?

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echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 9:30 PM

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I think I pivoted to global because it's slightly shorter? But the consistency of 'additive multiplers' is probably good

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 9:31 PM

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maybe lower case? Warp Core Charge Speed additive multiplier +1.3189

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 9:31 PM

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rich cairn maybe lower case? ``Warp Core Charge Speed additive multiplier +1.3189``

ooh that's a very good idea. That helps a lot in getting my brain to parse it properly

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 9:31 PM

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ok think we narrowing down the winners

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 9:33 PM

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i was just about to ask if this would automatically do cores

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cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 9:35 PM

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the percents multiplicative one feels awkward

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 9:36 PM

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this is better

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cant wait for everyone to complain because people hate change and they were used to it

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 9:37 PM

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oh wait it should be +0.3

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 9:37 PM

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yep

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 9:38 PM

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but who cares about % users <.<

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the more I look at it, the more I'm like "the problem is that % view is weird"

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 9:39 PM

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they can have their % and like them, we're getting the last interlopers of % out of our nice clean non-% mode

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 9:39 PM

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the actual most important part of this thread

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 9:40 PM

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errr was the crew milestones always broken on %?

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oh no I just broke it totally ok nvm

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 9:42 PM

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pff, if the %-viewers cant even report their own bugs

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I dont think we actually have anyone in this thread who uses % view do we?
those look... fine... to me, though.

rich cairn Feb 6, 2025, 10:39 PM

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cunning mango

the numbers are good, but it says "inreased"

cunning mango Feb 6, 2025, 10:41 PM

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man I was about to make that live

echo turret Feb 6, 2025, 11:47 PM

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rich cairn the numbers are good, but it says "inreased"

shoulda left it as a test to see how many %-viewers are out there

rich cairn Feb 7, 2025, 9:00 PM

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now that you've done this cool work, you should probably apply it to specimen. It is one of the egregious cases

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@cunning mango

#Additive vs Multiplicative tooltips