external control but with custom tempotrack possible?

[granite sail]

Hey, I would like to get Ableton controlled with a external midi data, this works perfectly when you have one single BPM value. But it dosent seem to work with an automated tempo track is there any possible solution to that? it works perfectly with different tempo automations in cubase but not in Ableton which i would like to have.?

[trail grotto]

If it's not natively feasible already, you can probably make it work with some of these tools:
https://abletonkurse.gumroad.com/l/TempoControlCollection

[granite sail]

sadly i wish you would be right.. -> but this is not made for my purpose..

its more for a stage setup where you trigger the tempo changes by hand

as i pointed out... as soon as external instrument is activ -> also max for live devices are not able anymore to send tempo automation data... i invested over 150 dollars to get this solved

every fucking thing that i tried was not working..

thanks for your help and ideas

i hope to find a solution in the next 5 days left.. otherwise i will probably abbandon Live... because its not usable for Orchestral / Soundtrack work in the 21st century.. anymore... with Noteperformer making Sample based Strings and woodwinds useless...- quality wise

@trail grotto i dont know if you know noteperformer -> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0XpVvcbaxQM&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.noteperformer.com%2F&source_ve_path=Mjg2NjY i need the sync just for one single thing -> synch of Vocal Plugins such as choirs which are still sample based librarys, or Synths, everything else is done by AI.. which is a thousand times better and smaller than all Sound Librarys ive purchased in recent years

[trail grotto]

Thanks, that's a new one to me!

[granite sail]

@trail grotto i learned in my Masterclass three weeks ago about it.. and i also learned that Noteperformer is on the market since 2018 and already teached as the gold standard in juliard as well as on Columbia University. There is no damn way around anymore.. more and more Star Composers adapting to this new world -> in fact a DAW is still a great tool, but in the context of Soundtracks and Orchestral Instruments a Daw is a mastering tool and a playback solution for anything else which is not woodwinds, brass or strings

Noteperformer is 600 mb big but is even outperforming the big BBC Professional Orchestra in direct quality comparison in terms of invested time and quality. the only way to compensate a bit when you already own bbc orchestra is to use Noteperformer with a special PlayEngine from Noteperformer specifily designed for BBC Orchestra... this will provide you with a good match, which is still not the same simulation and still has major issues...

[granite sail]

so here is my current wip @trail grotto to see what i want to do -> https://youtu.be/ZHr2bxVFVHU, i dont like the overall sounding and mastering in Cubase Pro, dont know why but the signal processing of Ableton always feels more natural to me...

[trail grotto]

This is genuinely interesting, thanks for the details! I'm tempted to install Dorico just to see if I can cook up a better solution...

[granite sail]

@trail grotto Noteperformer costs 10 bucks a month rent to own... so you should try this combination too... because it sounds better.. but anyways when you find a solution for this problem THIS would be outstanding.. maybe i have missed something or maybe you have a outside of the box solution...

[granite sail]

@trail grotto i doublechecked today if i miss something in Ableton and used the Performer Device to control and automate the tempo from their, when the external device mode is activated and yes the values of tempo on the main track got automated, they are jumping correctly... however ableton is not in sync because it does not adapt to the new incoming values... so i highly guess that the tempo values got fixed and hardcoded as soon as the external hardware mode is activated... -> i also found multiple reddit posts from recent 10 years and there are so many people having the same issue.. according to them... also incoming tempo values from hardware are not adapting.. only the input tempo is used...

@graceful geyser can someone from ableton confirm this behaviour with the external devices that the incoming tempo or the automated tempo is fixed and cannot change throughout an active play , when External Device mode is active too?

i hope that there is a solution otherwise i would need to drop Ableton until this solution exsists, the current state of this function is not state of the art or acceptable, also in regards that there are so many requests on Reddit and forums about this issue.

[silent knot]

Hey! Can I ask you to give me more details because I read your messages a couple of times but still can clearly understand what the problem is.

So, from my understanding, you have a piece of music in Noteperformer that has some tempo variations in it. When you play it, Live is not playing in sync with the incoming tempo information even though those tempo changes are recorded as automation on the Main track. Have I understood this correctly?

Now my question is: how do you send tempo information from Noteperformer to Live? Can you share a screenshot of your MIDI settings in Live?

[granite sail]

Hey not quite accurate. -> Since Dorico is not able to Send Tempo Information but MTC and FrameRate Information.. -> Its necessary to automate Tempo in Cubase or Ableton. When you activate External Device Control Synchronisation - everything works fine in Cubase but not In Ableton. Ableton is not able to change even their Own Tempo based on the Tempo Automation made in Ableton, when external Device Mode is activated

in short any Automation of the Tempo made inside of Ableton becomes useless when you activate external Device Synchronisation.. Ableton is always sticking to the first tempo it reads through out the entire playback

[silent knot]

I think this is the expected behaviour because if Live is looking for an external tempo source it will disregard all the information that exists in the current set.

If Live is the follower he needs to receive the tempo information (and all the variations/automation) from another app/device

If Live is the leader, it will send the information that is written in the main track (automation included).

I don’t have Dorico installed but I can have a look at it tomorrow if a trial version exists

[trail grotto]

What I'm taking from all of this is that we gotta put pressure on Cubase and Dorico to support Link!

[granite sail]

Sorry to say: "Link" is the most worst Synchronization that i have ever used. It constantly crashes on highly secured networks. In a professional working enviroment where you have 2 Firewalls at least which is very common in the media world or like in many studios with not even having a internet connection or browser access , Link is not ideal to be honest. Also the latency delays are insanely high. I have reported it many month ago, Link is constantly disconnecting in such a enviroment which is the standard in any commercial agency or commercial studio. The best solution is hardwire, its fast and works everytime.

[granite sail]

what you describe is essentially whats happening. Ableton is saying no to any customization. Which is irrational. The question is why this is no issue for Cubase, Nuendo, Reaper, Logic and Cubasis(ipad version of Cubase) They all are able to have a external synchronisation with a custom made tempo curve.

even when there is no tempocurve transmitted.

Ableton should be able to adapt .. or there should be an option to tell Ableton to use the exsisting tempocurve inside of Ableton. I have read 10 Year old Reddit posts of people having the exact same issue. The common sense is always: "Ableton will implement it soon" but since then it never happend ...I cannot imagine that this is a heck of deal to be implemented.

Anyways.. Iam very thankful to both of you @trail grotto and @silent knot sadly i need to get things done so i had to make a hard decission to drop Ableton out of the pipeline until this issue is resolved. Because there is a cascade of things that arent working when this feature is not working. Like a synchronisation with Davinci Resolve for example.

i will follow the development closely and hope we can laugh about this problem in 6 months or so.

[granite sail]

@trail grotto @silent knot i have a solution

Dorico is sending the signal to Cubase Pro... in Cubase Pro the Tempo Curve is imported and Cubase runs in Sync....this is necessary to have the correct cue points in the picture. -> in parallel -> the Sound from Dorico got send to Ableton Suite and Processed there.. -> When the Sound effects and eventually vocals got approved.. -> i can send the Tempo information to Ableton aka clicking the final tempo into the automations. -> then i can add the stems from Cubase on top... and be able to master the result

Cubase is essentially only processing sound -> which got send to Ableton too but is in sync..

[granite sail]

After Many Many Moth i have it .... With a crazy Solution: @trail grotto @silent knot

I essentially send TimeCode from Dorico with TLX Timecode VST to Cubase. In Cubase i import the tempotrack from Dorico. From Cubase Sync tools i convert the project timecode to midi clock and send it over via LoopMidi on Windows to have Ableton in Sync

it works perfectly

those are the settings

It shows that it is possible to perfectly convert Timecode to Midi Clock and have it almost identical..